The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - Your Turn -- Was Bob Rae Right or Wrong?

Episode Date: April 7, 2022

Lots of reaction to Bob Rae's appearance on The Bridge this week -- most felt Canada's Ambassador to the UN was bang on about negotiating with a war criminal, but not everyone. Also this week, your thoughts on the behaviour of MP's in the House of Commons, Covid, and more.

And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. You're just moments away from the latest episode of The Bridge. It's Thursday, your turn. You've got lots of things to say, once again, this week. And hello there in Toronto today, because later on on this day, going across the pond, taking the big silver bird across the ocean, fully masked, heading through Heathrow and then upwards north through the UK to Scotland. And finally, a drive up into the, well up into the Highlands. Looking forward to it. And as a result, a couple of things just to give you an advisory on. Tomorrow, Good Talk will be here with Chantelle Hebert and Bruce Anderson,

and we're talking about the budget that will be coming down later today in Ottawa. But as a result of my travel between flights and drives and walks, by the time I can get to my little hideaway podcast studio in Scotland, I won't make the noon hour download time or the Sirius XM noon hour show, noon hour Eastern tomorrow. But it will be at 5 o'clock Eastern tomorrow. It's a one-day only. That will be the initial broadcast of the bridge tomorrow and good talk. So keep that in mind for Friday.

Next week, I'm taking a short break. I haven't had one for four months now. So taking a short break. Easter, kind of, it's an Easter break. But next week there will be encore editions of some of the best programs of the bridge from the last year. So enjoy that. And I've had some letters. I've had letters of people say they love the encore editions. Either they missed it or they actually want to hear it again, even though they

can easily access them. Doing it this way is easier for them when they like it. And I've others say, oh, you've got to work every day. We don't want you taking a day off. What's going on? I'm retired. So occasionally having a day off makes some sense. All righty. The purpose of this episode is not to give you my travel and vacation plans. It is to give you a sense of what some of you have been saying in this last week. And it's been a momentous week in many ways, because we've got the Ukraine story, we've got COVID coming back at us, and we have a continuing discussion about not the value of politicians, but the behavior of politicians.

So we'll get to those comments as well. The normal Thursday reminder, I get lots of letters every week, emails. Still think of it in the old terms of letters. And I remember I used to get, in the early days of hosting the National, I used to get a lot of mail, letters, handwritten letters from viewers. And it's great to have that connection. And that's why I enjoy doing this so much and how I want to reflect what you're saying as often as I can. So anyway, I get a lot. I don't know, a couple of hundred,

usually a week, thoughts from you, and I read them all, and I save selected parts of some of them for this program. So let's get at it. Some repeat writers here, and some new ones, which is always a great mix and most of you almost all of you remembering to tell me where you're writing from because that makes that's fun too gabriella zilmer from toronto thank you for continuing to bring such a wide range of guests and viewpoints to your daily discussions every Every one of your guests bring forward thought provoking arguments and perspectives that always succeed in expanding my viewpoint and reflections. In my opinion, today's guest, UN Ambassador Bob Ray, this was Monday, brought forward a very

timely reminder that while outrage and disgust with what Putin's army is doing is a valid emotion, it doesn't necessarily lead to actions that could see an end to these atrocities and horrors. Our very human instinct is to stand for what is morally right, but Mr. Wray was on point when he reminded us that we need to find the best solution we can, even if not perfect. So, do we need to negotiate with a war criminal? Sadly, I think we must. But we do so with a view of making things significantly better, even if it isn't perfect. Thank you, Mr. Ray, for the reminder that diplomacy continuously seeks to find a solution, and by its very nature is quietly undertaken behind the scenes away from what we see day to day.

It gives me hope and restores my faith. That was the idea between our single topic Monday podcast. If you haven't listened to it, please go back and listen to it or listen, I think on Monday where it's going to be the encore edition on Monday. But the whole idea behind that was to have a discussion, have not really a debate, but a discussion about, in some ways, both sides of the argument, but drawing upon Bob Ray's longtime background in dealing with diplomatic issues.

Deb Broomfield from Owen Sound. I'm grateful to all the people you have reached out to in order to have us, give us a much deeper understanding of the war in the Ukraine. It's important to understand not just what we hear about in the daily news, but how countries got to the state of conflict. And yes, that is what we've been trying to do. Pamela McDermott from Burlington, Ontario. I can't imagine anybody, world leaders, ever wanting to deal. I can't imagine any world leaders ever wanting to deal with Putin in any legitimate way ever again. But I wonder if the Russian population have it in them to remove him after years

and years of being spoon-fed misinformation about the West. What do you think about possible solutions to this? I think what you have to understand is all that misinformation has worked. You know, it's hard to believe some of the polling data you see out of Russia, but what you are seeing suggests an 80% approval rating for Putin. The people are buying into, they kind of get one channel of news now um and it's very pro-putin and it's pro-war and it's anti-ukraine and it's the whole nazification stuff and they're buying it it's had an impact so for those who are waiting to see Putin get the heave-ho in Moscow, I'm not sure that's going to be happening anytime soon.

They seem to be hunkering down for the long haul, as badly as things have been going for them. Kate Wilson in Toronto. I appreciated the respect shown for Mr. Ray's perspective while expressing your and many people's hesitancy in potentially compromising with Putin to end the war. A morally uneasy deal with the devil, for sure. Thanks for the upcoming Friday session, says Tomorrow. And your thoughtfulness, that's kind of you, in planning around the federal budget and your vacation. Really looking forward to the budget analysis. Hold the spending, please, Justin. We'll see if he does that.

Barb Demaree, Vancouver. I thoroughly enjoyed your conversation with Ambassador Bob Ray, not only for his insights on Putin and the war in Ukraine, but also for what he shared about his role as the Canadian ambassador to the UN. As well, I appreciated that he reminded us that there is a horrible unrest in other parts of the war, so it's good to be reminded that people elsewhere are also living under dire circumstances. Brent Bush in Nanaimo. Brent writes, I take a daily early morning walk here in Nanaimo. You have to rub it in, don't you? And your podcast accompanies me each day. Before I head out each day, I check the TV news headlines. So far, the reports coming out

of Ukraine have been horrific. However, when I saw atrocities committed by the Russian army in Bucha, I was almost sick to my stomach. If this isn't the point where the West has to step in militarily, then what will it take? Now, while most of the mail surrounding the Bob Ray interview day last Monday, was very positive and very flattering to Bob Ray. It was not unanimous. Erwin Corrible.

Erwin writes from Manitoba. Peter, thank you for interviewing Canada's United Nations Ambassador Bob Ray on Monday. I happen to question, as you appear to do, how it's possible to negotiate with Putin, whose actions are clearly those of a war criminal. The death and destruction Putin has unleashed on the citizens of Ukraine is evident for everyone to see. A negotiation can only lead to Putin achieving some gain and reward for his criminal behavior.

I found Bob Ray's comments to be quite disappointing. His defense of the United Nations is of course expected of him, considering he is Canada's UN ambassador. However, I do not feel that he's actually representing reality when he insists that the UN has a positive role to play. Nor do his comments on negotiations with Putin represent the thinking and sentiments of a majority of Canadians who would agree that Putin should in no way be rewarded for his behavior. In fairness, I don't think Bob Ray wants to see Putin rewarded for his behavior either. But the question of how to handle this situation and what to do, first of all, as everybody agrees, and I'm sure you do too, Erwin, it will be Ukraine's decision whether to negotiate with Putin and how far to go in those negotiations with Putin. in terms of dealing with this guy and assuming the fact that a year or two years from now,

he may still be in power and that this is sort of, you know, we've all moved on with life. I don't think anybody wants to see that. Okay, so the other major, there are a lot of little topics and we'll get to them. But the other major topic today is a story, it's really a story about how members of parliament behave. And it was born out of the latest episode that raised this topic, which was one of the conservative MPs, Rachel Thomas from Lethbridge, Alberta, right out calling Trudeau a dictator and claiming that most Canadians or many Canadians agree with that feeling. And last week on, I guess it was Smoke Mirrors and the Truth. Last week, Bruce and I kind of went after that point.

So that provokes some mail, including this from Jody Stone, who wrote a couple of times, actually. She calls herself a fairly new listener to the podcast. She's in Saskatoon. And welcome, Jody. Glad you're with us. And glad you're writing your feelings about these things. So this is what she says.

Enjoy most episodes as you and your guests are more left-leaning than I. And I try to listen to opposing views because that's how I feel I'll learn and be a more understanding and respectful Canadian. I'm not sure if you acknowledge that your podcast is a left-leaning podcast or not. I'm a new listener, but I felt inclined to email. I don't acknowledge that. I don't think it's a left-leaning podcast. It's certainly not my intention for it to be. We try to discuss issues, and sometimes they may sound, if you're just listening occasionally, hey, that's pretty left-leaning. But then the next day, I get criticized from the left

for what they think is a right-leaning podcast. So, you know, I don't try to do this, you know, left-right stuff. Anyway, I agree, this once again is Jody, I agree that claiming or calling the PM a dictator in Parliament is wrong. I also feel that accusing a Jewish member of standing with Nazis is wrong. So is claiming Honk Honk is like saying Heil Hitler is wrong. I'm observing many Canadian elected leaders behaving in an immature and unprofessional manner. It's hard to see a bright future for my kids, and I've never been more concerned for our

country than I am today. And it has nothing to do with a possible world war with Russians. It's frightening. Maybe you called out the Liberal Party for inappropriate comments or behavior, but I don't recall an episode where that occurred. If you have, thank you. Well, we have, and many times. You know, going back years, I mean, the behavior in Parliament, I think Parliament's a good place to have good, you know, good, sometimes pale stuff in the early 1980s when the liberals were in opposition and they were hammering away at the Mulroonies.

And there was the liberal rat pack. Remember? So that's where a lot of this kind of stuff started. And we've taken on the, you know've we've made a point of mentioning that we didn't in that show but i did i did say this has been going on for years and it's it covers all parties but the dictator thing took it to a whole new level um anyway jody wrote back a couple of times and uh you know i i'm i'm glad she did and i hope she keeps listening and keeps writing uh carolyn auckland thompson she's from calgary last week you and a guest were talking about the poor behavior of the members of the house of commons

this has been going on for decades. A couple of decades ago, teachers were able to access the House of Commons in session on television. My students and I tried watching a few times but had to stop. The kids were horrified by what they saw and heard. We watched more than once just in case we had hit a bad day. Every year I would get the kids to think about being a representative of one of the three levels of government. After watching their government in action, they were disgusted by the poor manners they saw. People were shouting over top of the person speaking. Other people were booing the speaker. They were shocked that one person might intimate that the speaker was lying. They were most that one person might intimate that the Speaker was

lying. They were most dismayed that the Speaker of the House didn't demand better behavior from them. They suggested that I should apply to the Speaker of the House to bring order and better manners. At the time, none of the students would even consider running for election in any level of government, which I find very sad. I wonder what the students today think of an MP calling our prime minister a dictator. There were consequences for name-calling in my classroom. All right, Carolyn. I don't want to, and nor should you or Jody or anybody else, assume that everything is a poor performance in the House of Commons. Because there are also some great speeches by members of all parties.

They get overshadowed because, you know, quite often we in the media go for the hot moment. When some of the colder moments are really quite brilliant, quite informing. Question period often is not one of those moments. But that's what question period is for. It's to try and make the government of the day accountable. And there are ways of doing that appropriately accountable and there are ways of doing that appropriately and there are ways of doing it inappropriately it seems we've been leaning

on the latter more than the former of light malcolm campbell from kinnesota manitoba is trudeau a dictator on its face the notion seems ridiculous and absurd, especially in contrast to Putin. Thank God our country, at least in regards to foreign policy, has maintained a moral or ethical benchmark. When you and Bruce discussed this last Wednesday, he used the example of Putin sentencing a person who publicly opposed him. Did Trudeau not do the same when he invoked emergency power as a means of shutting down a peaceful protest? It wasn't peaceful. Ask the people of Ottawa how peaceful it was. Furthermore, extending the scope by charging donors. Was the protest really so unforgivably destructive that livelihoods could be irrevocably destroyed through frozen bank accounts and property seizures.

I guess we're going to find that out in the review and the studies and the investigations that are going on into actually what was going on behind the scenes and how serious the threat was. That's going to be on the public record when those reports are displayed. And Malcolm goes on, Trudeau's on public record as being a fan of Chinese dictatorship. I think that's overstating

what he said. I'm sure he regrets saying what he did say many years ago, back at the beginning of his prime ministership, when he talked about as a child going to China with his father. And, you know, and he said the things he said about that time. And I'm sure he regrets some of it. But to call him a fan of chinese dictatorship i think is an overstating now i'm hearing of legislation to restrict youtube to canada only content under the guise of controlling misinformation i suppose so now the government

decides for us what is real and what is fake the legislation of censorship is what I smell. You are a world-renowned journalist. Thank you. Would that not be an impediment to your trade? Would you be exempt? Well, right now I'm just a retired pensioner who babbles away on his little podcast. So I don't think anybody's going to be trying to shut me down a dictatorship need not be overtly or explicitly explicitly violent it does not announce its arrival to a functional democracy it seeps in slowly most effectively when fear and panic is

the narrative of our trusted institutions history is full of the majority being on the wrong side of it. Trudeau may not be history's definition of a dictator, but my sense is that our government is moving slowly towards authoritarianism. Call me a paranoid victim of well-curated misinformation. This is definitely an instance where I would be relieved to learn I'm completely wrong. Well, I'm not going to say you're completely wrong. I am going to say we live in a democracy. You don't like these guys? Vote them out. And vote them out in an effective way that they're replaced. They don't represent a majority. What were they? 32, 33 percent?

One out of three Canadians voted for them. But more than half voted for left or center or left of center parties. In other words, the Liberals and the NDP and the Green Party. Although you can argue about what the actual ideology of the Green Party is. But nevertheless, more than half between the Liberals and the NDP. But if you don't like that, get out there and work for the other side. Or run. That's a democracy.

That's not authoritarianism. Malcolm closes out by saying, if you've managed to get this far in my letter, I thank you, good sir. Well, I thank you, good sir, Malcolm, in Minnesota, Manitoba, for sending along your thoughts. Now, on this misbehavior by politicians angle, it went a little further. Dino Manorino writes about a provincial situation. We've heard, we've read a lot of letters about Jason Kenney over the years. I keep saying Kennedy. I don't know.

But we've read a lot of letters about Jason Kenney over the last couple of months, really. Here's a shift. It's Dino from Hamilton. I'm looking a gift horse in the mouth today. We received a check for $780 from the Ontario government for two years of license plate renewals going back to 2020. Curious timing, eh? Have I missed the groundswell of public outrage for this issue, or might it just be a pre-election thing? Ham-fisted attempt to buy votes. Regressive taxation.

How can Mr. Ford demand more funding from Ottawa for health, for example, when he's giving money to people that didn't ask for it and don't need it? Intelligent, caring leader? Or just the leader we deserve. That's kind of a phrase that my dad always used to say to me. You get the government you deserve. By your own actions, by your lack of interest, by your lack of involvement in discussing public policy. And your decision not to vote. And we've heard lots of angles on that lately.

Spencer Stinson writes from Blenheim, Ontario. Does Doug Ford get a free pass right now? I know we're still a little ways away from the election and your Western listeners will gripe about the podcast being too ontario-centric again hardly listen to the letters today they're kind of from all over and there's one big one coming up from one region we haven't heard from today and but these announcements are so transparently lobbed up for votes, it's insulting to the average voter, in my opinion.

I'm hoping a solid Friday good talk is in the works in the near future. Well, I'm sure it will be. I even bring it up tomorrow when we finish talking about the budget. How he expects to recoup the billions lost in revenue is no guess. As per usual, the Conservatives will slash and dash if they win, or if by some stroke of luck the NDP or Liberals pull out a win, they'll spin it. It's all their fault.

Yeah, we've seen that movie before, haven't we? Okay, that's it for the two main topics, but we have others. And we're going to get to them right after this. Haven't heard that music in a while. But that's our break music for this day. Welcome back. I'm Peter Mansbridge in Toronto. This is the Thursday episode of The Bridge.

It's your turn. And you're listening on SiriusXM channel 167. Canada Talks. Or on your favorite podcast platform. All right. Back to last few letters. Lynn Washington writes from Sherwood Park, Alberta. I'm listening to your podcast from April 1st about the apology from the Pope. What twigged me to write to you is the fact that we still need continued education

about the horrific things that were done to the aboriginal peoples of canada unfortunately that education is not going to happen in alberta if jason kenney gets his way and his ucp curriculum gets the go-ahead to be implemented this fall i will not go into the history of this dangerous curriculum that he and his education minister are touting as a mass improvement. It is hugely flawed and will set us back decades. The issue I have is that the person Kenny tapped to rewrite our curriculum is a big denier that any of these atrocities even occurred or were detrimental to the First Peoples. I'll attach an article he wrote in response to the Pope's apology. I was appalled and gobsmacked, and that article is available online. You can read it if you want. The guy's name is Chris Champion. He's been working on the new Alberta school curriculum.

And it's right. He was not a fan of the Pope's apology the other day. Rob Bjarnason from Carberry, Manitoba. Great conversation with Bruce today regarding social media regulation. You read my mind. When is the time to regulate false information and unethical comments? Sooner is better for the maintenance of our social fabric. As the conservative leadership race heats up, the vitriol is flowing and a lot of spaghetti is getting thrown against the wall without any personal responsibility. The latest election pitch from Pierre Palliev of the Conservatives touting the amazing upside of cryptocurrency is very

irresponsible. His pitch and mainstream media pushing risky crypto investments sticks in my claw. From Hockey Night in Canada to Matt Damon, crypto is being given way too much legitimacy. I'd love to hear more on this topic on your show. We did a crypto show about a year ago. Maybe it's time to do one again because you're right. It's all over television. They're spending millions of dollars on ads.

You don't get the Matt Damon's and the others who are doing crypto ads. You don't get them for nothing. Ian Hutchinson writes from Grey County, Ontario. Regarding the conversation about freedom of speech and the proposed bill limiting it, I would put forward some thoughts. The purpose of free speech is to

keep light on these opinions. It's very likely that many people with opinions that we all feel are incorrect and influenced by social media. These opinions existed long before social media, but now that there is a social discourse like this, we are all more aware of them. By attempting to stifle these messages, the end result will be to feed their persecution complex and force that discussion underground, where it is more dangerous. Regarding Bruce's statements about freedom of speech in Canada and that we have long had limits on it, that's true. However, I don't think the average citizen has been aware of the limits until very recently.

I suspect that if presented the poll question, do Canadian citizens have a right to free speech, the majority would answer in the affirmative and be shocked to realize that in fact they can be jailed for giving voice to certain ideas. That's true. It's only happened in very rare circumstances, but it has happened. Certainly, that was my little additional commentary. Back to Ian's letter.

Certainly, this freedom has led to some really dumb ideas, but this is always the price of freedom. It's the natural consequence of having individual freedoms that some people will elect to do dumb stuff with them. And as a final point, I find the concept of any individual person or body having the legal authority to be some sort of arbiter of what is and what is not true to be a deeply dystopian idea, no matter who that person is. I sure wouldn't want that power, and I'm deeply skeptical of anyone who does. Thanks sincerely for your show and its contribution to our national discourse. And thank you, Ian, for joining that discourse.

I got a little letter about hockey this week because, hey, we're a couple of weeks away from going into the playoffs. We're watching amazing performances by those two guys in Edmonton. What are their

names again? I don't know. I can't remember. And Austin Matthews and Mitch Miner in Toronto. We're lucky.

We're watching some incredible hockey. Whether it's dry sidle or Toronto. We're lucky. We're watching some incredible hockey, whether it's Dreisaitl or McDavid in Edmonton or the boys in Toronto. How far either one of them will get in the playoffs, who knows. But Terry Ruth Icefeld in Port McNeil,

British Columbia writes, My team has always been the Canadians, Montreal Canadiens. However, I just love this game and I'm a proud Canadian. So I cheer for all Canadian teams. And if there are no Canadian teams left in the playoffs, I cheer for the team with the most Canadian players. All right. Well, you know there'll be lots of Canadians,

no matter which team's there at the end. A COVID letter. Derek Andrews writes from Fredericton, New Brunswick. Have you watched CBC's coverage of what's going on in Shanghai? Yeah, I've watched CBC's and all the networks. Wondering what your thoughts are. This is the same COVID as we have. This is the new variant, the latest Omicron variant.

These are the same numbers as we have. Yes, they are on completely. They are on a complete indefinite lockdown. They are. They've shut that city down. It's one of the biggest cities in the world. I don't know what the latest population count is. Last time I looked, it was like 15 million or something.

When does COVID become a human rights issue? Is it now? It's a bit concerning to me watching the coverage. I'm worried about it. It's sweeping in this latest wave. Call it the fourth wave, the fifth wave, the sixth wave. I don't know what it is. Depends where you live, I guess.

But it's definitely, it's a big one. Now, the best way to fight it is get your booster if you haven't already. You still could catch COVID, but it's going to be a lot less damaging if you've had the booster and your vaccines, you're up to date. And you can prevent getting it, or at least have a good chance of not getting it. Nothing's 100% preventable. If you wear a mask, or a double mask. You know, I'll be masked and probably double masked on the plane tonight, going across the pond.

Just use your head. Here's the last letter. And, you know, I always try to save something special for the end this one's special i like this one because it's one of my favorite parts of the country here we go it's called proud to be an islander congratulations on three million downloads i stumbled onto your podcast a few weeks ago and I'm now officially addicted to it. All right. This is from Kelly Taylor in New Dominion, Prince Edward Island. I look forward to listening every day and have forwarded it to many of my friends and family. I really missed you after you left the National and was delighted to find your podcast. I truly appreciate the guests and

topics you cover and they've sparked many dinner conversations in our home. I'm a military spouse and follow the war in Ukraine carefully. It breaks my heart and certainly strikes fear in me. Your podcasts have helped me understand what's happening as it happens, and I thank you for that. I appreciate your weekly COVID updates, and I am thankful that you are continuing them. We're currently on our 12th posting, live in PEI.

I would just like to say how fortunate I feel and how proud I am to say that we live here. I'm originally from Alberta. There was a time that I proudly told everyone that would listen that I was from there. Now I barely whisper it if I'm asked. I'm embarrassed and almost ashamed by what's happening there with Jason Kenney and how Alberta has handled or mishandled the pandemic. I know that Prince Edward Island is an often forgotten about province in Canada, and sometimes that's a good thing.

But I must say the pride I have in how PEI has handled the pandemic is enormous. We have a 97.5% rate of at least one vaccination and 94.4% rate of fully vaccinated people over the age of 12, second only to Newfoundland. And I was so very pleased to hear our Premier, Dennis King, announced today that the mask mandate will stay in place until at least April 28th. With the fifth or is it the sixth wave happening in Canada, it is wonderful that our province is listening to the science and will be protecting its citizens a little longer. Again, congratulations on your three million downloads from a small voice in a small province. Thanks, Kelly. You know, I'm a lucky guy, right?

I've traveled the world, but most importantly, I've traveled our country from one end to the other. From east to west, from north to south. I've been literally to almost everywhere in the country. And I, like all of you, I have favorites. I have a lot of favorites. You know, it's hard to go wrong in this country. You can be dropped anywhere and not be amazed by what you see and the people you meet. And while we talk about being a polarized country, and we are on big issues,

we're also surprised continuously by just how similar we all are, even with our different issues on our minds, and how wonderful and smart and understanding and caring Canadians are. But the point I was going to make to you, Kelly, is that I love PEI. I love its beautiful landscape, its red beaches, its lobster. I love it all. We were married, actually,

in PEI, in Malpac, in the old church in Malpac. So it's been a couple of years since I've been back in PEI, but I'm supposed to go back to help some friends out who are in the tourism business. And almost did it last year, but COVID got in the way. Hopefully it'll happen this year. Great golf courses too. Fantastic golf courses on the island. So thank you for that letter, Kelly, and thank you for PEI.

All right, that's going to wrap it up for this day. I'm Peter Mansbridge. Remember tomorrow, 5 o'clock Eastern, for the release of the Good Talk podcast and the bridge on SiriusXM. That's it for now.

Talk to you again in 24... Well, not quite 24 hours. A little more than 24 hours