The Bryce Crawford Podcast - The Kenneth Copeland Interview (EP 186)

Episode Date: March 30, 2026

In this episode, Bryce interviews Kenneth Copeland.

It's hard for me to wrap my mind around this idea that God wants everyone to be wealthy, everyone to be healthy and things like that. No, it doesn't say that. We want everybody to prosper. Being rich is more than enough to take care of what you have and enough left over to help somebody take care of themselves. The thing that's more attractive to people about this prosperity, health, and wealth message is those things rather than Jesus. Where do you find, hey, this is something I enjoy versus this is something that may be something. sitting on the throne of my heart.

Before we get into this interview, there's a couple things that I want to tell you guys about. Kenneth Copeland is a prosperity gospel preacher who teaches another gospel that says, God wants every Christian to be healthy, wealthy, and prosper. And if you aren't doing those things as a Christian, then it is your fault. I want to clarify, I do not agree with the prosperity gospel. That's the whole reason why we sat down. When we got the opportunity to do the first sit-down interview with Kenneth Copeland in over 15 years, I made it very clear to them.

I was like, hey, guys, I disagree. I'm going to be very respectful in the conversation, but I do not agree with prosperity gospel. And so this interview is a little bit different where I sat back and asked a lot more questions from a journalistic perspective, whereas I want to understand where he gets this doctrine from. I really don't understand. I want to know how he finds it in scripture, what that looks like to the person and ask a lot of questions and do more digging to let the idea speak for itself so that we can understand why the true gospel is important. You know, I believe Paul makes a good case in second Corinthians that sometimes God allows a thorn in our side to keep us humble and reliant on him. And so it was

fun to hear, hear his perspective and challenge him even though I disagree. And I want to be very cautious by going into this. But also my heart was First Timothy five. Kenneth Copeland is in the latter parts of his age. He's a little bit older. And I tried to do my best to hold to First Timothy five, which says, do not rebuke an old man, but appeal to him as a father. And so I tried to come at him with challenges as if I was challenging my father and not a harsh rebuke, quote unquote. So I pray that as you watch this interview, you listen to it. He's going to tell a lot of his stories. And then when we get into the prosperity part, that the questions that I ask, I pray that they compel you in such a way to thank God for the true gospel. And not that God just wants material things

for our life, but that God wants us and that he is the prize, even if we lose everything, because that is the goal. I love you guys. Thank you again to the Copeland Network. You guys are extremely hospitable to us and welcoming us to have this sit down interview and enjoy this episode. If you're a Christian and you say that you believe in truth, We need to live truth out, whether it's in word, indeed, or businesses that you support. It is essential to the Christian walk that in everything that we do, we do it for the glory of God. That's why I want to tell you guys about my friends at Patriot Mobile. Patriot Mobile isn't just some wireless company.

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And the heart behind the company is to see the gospel go for. Switching is way easier than you think. Plus, they'll give you 15% off for life and give you the first month for free if you just use my promo code, Bryce. Let's live out what we believe. So go to patriotmobile.com slash Bryce or call 972-Patriot. What's going on, guys. Welcome back to another Bryce Crueffer podcast. I'm Bryce. And today we have an incredible guest sitting down with us. I mean, from my knowledge, this man hasn't done a sit down interview in over a decade.

And so we're excited to welcome Kenneth Cufflin with us this morning. How are you? I'm doing good. Good. Well, thank you for being with us. All as well in the household of face. So if you just stay with it, everything will work. Amen. Well, thank you for being with us. I'm grateful that you're here and letting us come and visit you. and be with you. But, you know, for anyone that doesn't know anything about you, you know, next generation, you know, who are you, where are you from? What was that like?

I was born in Lubbock, Texas, December 6, 1936. Of course, that was right at the tail end of the Great Depression. And then my dad moved us to Abilene, Texas. And we lived on 733 Sunset Drive. And my dad brought a brand new nice house for $1,750. And he worked for John's business college. So since he was in education, then during World War II, his fuel wasn't rationed. And so he traveled a lot.

And then there in Avalene, I'm. grew up there. And then 1952, we moved to Fort Worth. I didn't want to do that. I wanted to be an Abilene Eagle. Well, let me fast forward

about this far. When I was in high school, Polly High School had never in a baseball track, everything else, but not in football. And so my class and my quarterback was Hunter Ennis, and he and I are still

really close friends. today. And so we did it. We went all the way up. Guess who we played in the final, the Abilene Eagles, and they beat us 46 to nothing. But so far, I blick, go polly. They're going to get there one of these days. Well, and while I was in high school, they did a teen times foremost dairy company who did a teen, time talent scale. And I was 18. And of course, to sing, I've tried out for it. And there was a girl in high school, her name was Jimmy Fay Powell, and Jimmy Fay can just play it. And so we went to the WBAP Fort Worth Studios here and found out what all to do. And the set was set up like, you know like a drug store

and Pat Boone was the what was the hit of it so I sang several things to audition and of course my big song was old man River they said that's probably not going to go on what we want to do how about you wore blue velvet

well that's more like it but money honey oh that's more like what we want I like that. That sounded great. I won it three times and got a little radio. And I wanted three more times. And we went to the studio and counted it down to 10 and turned on the switch and it was color.

It was Friday evening, Buley Barn Dance. I had on a white hat and sang Ghost Riders in the sky. Praise. And Pat and I and the family are still very, very, very close. Awesome. Anyway, in coming to Fort Worth, there were things that took place here, you know, in my life. And I had a hit record back in 1957 called Pleasure of Love.

I'd been in the Army. And then Terry, my first daughter was born while I was in the service there. And of course, you know, she's just precious. And of course, George Pearson says my son-in-law, and he pastors the M.C. Church. Anyway, I went out there trying to get in that entertainment business, and it didn't work. But out of that did come that recording contract, out of that deal. So a lot of pressure. For sure.

and I gave up on it. I just quit. I went to my dad. Now, my dad said, Kenneth, if I had to unsip your head, wouldn't anything but motorcycles

and airplanes come out. Well, right there at the end of World War II, they saw that the war was practically over anyway. So there was a man by the name of Wooten in Abilene and the Wooten Hotel and a number of things there. And someone called my dad. I never did know who it was and said, we're going to fly Mr. Wooten's airplane,

would you and your son like to come? Well, now, anyone that's familiar with Amelia Earhart, it was that little Lockheed elector that she flew. That's what it was. Oh, cool. I can see it in my mind right now. The guy got everything settled in the back seat. I was already in the front.

He looked over there and me, and he said, don't you touch anything. I sat there like this, and I was off the ground. Well, now we talk about now you have what you say, but I didn't know that then. And I was walking away, and my dad had me by the hand. I was eight or nine years old.

I said, Daddy, I'm going to do this. that. He said, what? I'm going to fly airplanes. He said, boy, you can do it. Well, then came to Fort Worth, and I remember my dad saying to my mother, Adwin, Veneta Copeland, and my grandfather was Chum Owens, for his blood Cherokee. He went to sign in for the draft and they said, no, we can't use that you nickname Chum. What's your name? W.E. What does that stand for? William Elmer. He named himself that day. A Cherokee, man. Anyway, and he's my grandfather. And just, oh, what a guy. Anyway, we, they go out there with that old farm and spend a lot of time there. So he went to

were for National Online Insurance Company there in Little Rock. It now has merged with other people. There was a car lot in Fort Worth at 1010, Texas Street. I understand it didn't there anymore, but it was then. I worked there for a man by the name of Bill Golightly, and he also owned an aviation company. So I came home and told my dad, I said, you said, you see that I got an education. I said, I want to learn how to fly. So he shook my hand.

He said, all right, I'll stay with you until you get your commercial, you own, y'own. So I soloed August the 24th at 4 o'clock in afternoon at Meacham Field, 12 years before D.FW. Love Field in Dallas. And most people won't

understand this, but aviators will. The final approach fix on an instrument landing system is called the outer marker. Well, Jim Couch had been a military instructor and I'd had a couple other instructors that weren't all that good

so Bill brought him in and he said you want to learn how to fly or just water around in the sky I said I want to learn how can you take it I said I can't if you can dish it out but needless to say he did teach me how to fly I got to fly so I lined up out there

in this little Cessna 150 552, 55, 2, 3, 8,000, Echo is ready for Takeo. Roger that two, three echo. Your number eight to follow with DC3 just outside the outer marker. Do they have something painted on a barn out here or something? I said, sir, this is my first solo. All right, two, three, echo.

Can you hold your hitting? Yes, sir. Can you hold your altitude? Yes, sir. Now turn base, meaning I'm leaving downwind, turn base in the final. As soon as you see that DC3 go under your wing, you can turn base. So I did it. I did three touching goes by myself. I am a pilot. I don't know anything, but I'm a pilot.

And I went on to that and I got my private license. Now I'm working on them. And then I kept working at that. And now I need a multi-engine rating. And I'm just going up the ladder in the aviation world. World. And TCU was playing Arkansas in 1961 for the Southwest Conference Championship. And so I asked, I told Bill, what about, my dad bought cars from him. How about my dad going? He said, there's no place to stay. I said, well, yeah, maybe. I said,

Dad, call up there and see if you can get the penthouse. So he did. Well, I went to an after-game party, according to my dad didn't care anything back going to that. And that penthouse, anyway, a man came up to me and said, my daughter's a best-looking girl in the state of Arkansas. And I was doing this, a comedian back there in those days called Brother Dave, Dave Gardner.

Just funny. Never off-color. at all. And one of my favorite was, hey, James Lewis, put down that wheelbarrow. You know you don't know nothing about machinery. And the giant, he's a Philadelphia. Anyway, that's acting a fool at that party. And this man kept telling me that. He said, I'm going to prove it to you. So I told him, you know, how to get there around the party. I know where all that is. So I'm standing there Sunday, August the 8th,

1961, October. Beautiful blue cobalt sky. Looking at that elevator. Best-looking girl in the state of Arkansas is going to get off this elevator. That elevator opened up to him. Oh, man. He wasn't kidding. I said, Gloria.

I'm thinking about it. It still brings tears in my eyes, and I think. We walked out there. And we walked out there, for some reason, she just reached over and patted me on the back, and I fell in love with her. I never heard of the root of bitterness, but it just left me. And I was, oh, let me tell you something.

So I said, if you ever been in an airplane right, no. Would you like to go? If my mother can go. So we went down And I told Bill about it He said, sure, just put them in the back seat And I had to show both of them out of fashion the seatbelt And we flew around

Her dad was there and they got back in the car Bill said Kenneth You take the mother I'll take the daughter That's best to compare it to women I ever saw in my And he wasn't kidding

Maldives, just beautiful. Anyway, my father-in-law is a war hero. And for those that know, because I was in the United States Army in 1957, but I have a picture of him. On the back, D-Day 4th of June. No, D-Day 4 June 44. First, a big red one over here, where he was sitting two hash marks, four years of combat, the blue infantry braid, which meant he's in the infantry. And three rockers up and three rockers down with a diamond in the middle are he's top soldier, Sergeant Major. And his next rank would have been second lieutenant. All of that in combat.

The North African campaign, first infantry division was under patent. The North African campaign, Battle of the Ardennes, that was the Battle of the Bulls. here's just Sunday school teacher from Arkansas came back home PTSD began to drink and anyway I said Gloria I need to ask your dad's hand in marriage

and he said well yeah I introduced you to her and this little girl's head bouncing back and forth and it was Jan and she's been in the ministry now over 50 years so that's a little bit of background behind him. He had a massive heart attack. Now, he remarried. Molynear never did. But his wife was a member of the First Baptist Church in Nashville, Arkansas. They rushed him to the hospital. And of course,

Gloria and I flew over there as soon as we could. Her pastor said, Copeland, I waited until there was absolutely nothing, no part of that operation left. And I took him down the Roman road. No more PTSD. He never took another drink. Glory to God forevermore. He went home at 77 years old. Isn't that magnificent? God doesn't fail. And it's a rich thing.

Well, when you were growing up, when did you, when did you claim to start following Jesus? Like how old were you? Well, I was right. All the life. Your parents were believers? Are you kidding? My mother was a switcher. She'd get behind my little legs and zzzzz.

My daddy, he was a disciplinarian. He was a military man. No. No, he wasn't? He was in between the wars. Okay. And her appendix ruptured on the basketball court. And back in the day, that was a death sentence.

And so they told her that she probably, wouldn't live. Well, he just used cadaver clamps because he got in there as ruptured. My grandfather went in there and said, she dies, you die. So he he sold her up, but didn't do a good job of it, and she suffered from that all of her life. But you grew up in a Christian house? Oh, I

did. And my dad, he's just my hero, man. That's awesome. And he, he'd, but he'd say to me, Kenneth, you did that again, I'm going to whip you. twice I did it again and he did it he said all right and then what I told you

it may be two or three days later I realized later he wouldn't do it if he's hurt or mad but he'd take his belt and he'd tan my rear end and I think about him today I'm so glad that he did

because I grew up with great respect for him. I mean, when he walked in the room, that's a grown man, I stood up. And we went camping together one time on a ranch out that he had a friend out there that had some land in the soil bank. And so we went out there to go camping and talk about some things about ministry and so forth. And so I said, you own a cup of coffee before we get in? in the tent. Well, then their soil conservation, they had water that it was coming down. So I went down this little stream stream, and I had just no metal coffee pot. And I had already washed it out and everything cleaned. And I just scooped up some water there and bought it and made coffee.

And so the next morning we got up. And I said, Dad, that coffee is good last night? Well, yeah, Kenzie's good. I said, well, this morning, I'm not going to get another frog like I did in this one. I scooped up a little frog. There's a frog in it. And then that thing and it just cooked him. We both just lost it. He said, okay, no frogs.

But that was my dad and I. If I got to travel with him and his traveling, it was just absolutely wonderful. I think that's amazing. I think, you know, Malachi, Four, six, talks about the hearts of fathers turning their sons, and their sons turn to fathers. And I think more than now than ever, especially my generation, I get so important for fathers and mothers to believe in my generation. And that really encourages them to. And we would talk together, visit about things together.

And I remember one time, Mother had all me she wanted. I mean, all she wanted. She grabbed a belt and took out after me. And I said, Mama, that's enough. And I jerked it away from her. Don't ever do that. Those little Cherokee eyes started doing this. She jumped on me.

I said, Mama, I'm sorry. No, get off of me. And she started laughing. I started laughing. But anyway. So you had met Gloria after that after party, the Arkansas TCU game, and you guys get married. I remember you soon.

Okay. We went on to Arkansas, and in Central Flying Service, I got the multi-engine rating. And all was really going good. And so in a Beechcraft Baron. And then, so my boss was Claude Hovert, and he was my best man. And Joe Stewart, who was CEO, was a Southern Baptist preacher. And we chose April the 13th. And so we got married in his living room.

And you had asked her to marry you on your first date, correct? Yes. We walked up on the porch. Well, I did my thing. Now, Mag, I told him all about him. He said, now you take her to the rocket room down at the hotel. They have one-time jukebox. So Johnny Mathis came on singing Misty.

So I sang Misty to her while we're dancing. She didn't act like it even happened. Wow. Walked up on the porch. I said, Gloria, will you marry me? Okay. And went inside and said, what have I done? I don't even know this guy.

Oh, well, I get out of it later. That's 64 years later. Wow. But. You sang to her while y'all danced. Yes, what we did. That's real Riz. Do you know what Riz is?

Have you ever heard that? That's like a Riz is like, you know, like you've, You swooned her. You know, you had a game. I did everything I could think of. Yeah. It sounds like you had a real riz. Look at me.

And so. I like that. Wait, do you think the look at. Look at me. I'm as helpless as a kitten up a tree. Feel like I'm clinging to a cloud. I can't understand. I get misty.

Just holding your hand. Walk my way. And a thousand bowels begin to play Is it the sound of your hello That music I hear I get misty The moment you're near Does that take you back to that moment?

Oh yeah But the other one was a Ray Price tune You're the best thing that ever happened to me Oh wow I've had my share Of life's ups and downs Life so good the downs have been few.

I know it's because he has blessed me. And I know it's because he gave me you. If anyone should ever write my life story. We just finished the edit on it about two days ago. That's so cool. Anyway, how you and Gloria met. We've never had an argument. Wow.

We've been discussions and we've just sit and talk about it. I only raised my voice to her one time and I don't remember living in a little rent house. I don't even, I don't remember now what's set it off. And I just stopped in the middle of it.

I said, oh, glow, oh, baby, you don't deserve this. And I just fell down over this this couch and I said, I got to preach. She said, I know it. Let's go back to 1962. I flew a man from Little Rock to Shreveport. He, by the name of Weir, he was an executive

with the Arkansas New Zealand Natural Gas Company. I came back and, you know, got him off and she, I told her, you know, I'd be late. And I got back in. She was at the stove. I can see it in my mind right now. I went in and took my suit. and came back in there, the kitchen there, the little Donette there, and sat down. And I heard it in my spirit, Kenneth, you don't get it right with me. You had it to a devil's hell. I said, I know it. What do I do now?

I heard a woman by the name of Ms. Taggart, Sunday school teacher in the University of Baptist Church in Abilene, Texas. Boys, you have to ask Jesus to come into your heart. I thought, that's old lady Tagger. That's what we call it. She called herself then. She's a widow. I said, well, here goes.

Jesus. Now, I'd never heard of me near creature. Jesus, come into my heart. Profanity was gone from that day to this. So in 1962, you said this? And then I've got to tell, now I've got to tell Gloria. She's raised in church Christ, not in the Baptist church. I said,

I was sitting like this in that little chair. I said, Gloria, and she got them, came walked over there. I said, come here. What if I were to, oh, what if I were to speak for God or give my testimony? She said, hallelujah. I said, what? She said, well, the Bible your mother sent you that you never did read, said, Ken precious, seek

ye first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added to you. She said, I just said, Lord, I need things, so take my life and do something with it. We jumped up and hugged one

another. January, 1963, man by the name of William Standish Reed was having a Christian medical foundation meeting. They said, you know, anybody wants to come up.

I turned around my mother. I said, is that something we ought to have? Yeah, I just grabbed Gloria and up. We went. Well, all the men were praying for me and all the women were praying for her. And, you know, hang on, let go. I didn't know what they wanted me to do. But the men just gave up on me.

So Gloria was standing right there and there was still praying for her. So he should have come over here. Leave your hands on her. I said, no. Oh, why? They hands on. I did. I'm telling you, I'm paying the power of God like knocked me backwards.

And I stumbled back up on this little makeshift platform. Oh, and then I got a whole glial. I said, I got a whole glikerya. And then I got a whole glow. I said, I got to go back to work. So, Monday. So let me know what takes place. Well, the next day she received.

First time in her life, she'd heard the term born again. And we met people that were lifelong friends that day, which she came back to Little Rock with. And they lived in Little Rock. But I knew so little about it. I'm flying this small airplane, and I'm just sitting there thinking and talking to myself, just about the latter than I'm talking now, just the drone of the airplane. And I said, Lord, I don't know what all I know about this.

I must have heard the word anointing there because I never heard it in my life. I'm going to say some of those words again. And anything to this for me, I'm asking you to anoint them. Here it came again. Now I'm concerned. I got to talk to these people. I said, God, I'm going to have to talk to ATC here.

I think, but I'm going to have to talk to Littal, little Rakhapurz. I thought, well, that worked. That's how little I knew. Landed, I'm telling you, I laid my hands on the airplane, the car, everything you could think of.

And so that's where it began. And how long have you been in ministry for and had KCM? Now? Yeah, now, to this day. Well, I was in the ministry before. We started KCM in 24 January, 1964. Wow.

I'd already been preaching to full gospel of businessmen, fellowships, and things like that, before that. Before that. But that's when this ministry started. Wow. So this January is 59 years. Wow. And, you know, I've done a lot of traveling, traveled in times that sitting in the makeup chair with Sherrod like we did today, I'd sit there so exhausted, I didn't know, I couldn't tell how I was going to do what I had to do. And with stress.

And I was preaching from Mike Barber in a tent meeting, prison tent meeting. And I got short of breath. And I had no idea why. well, I went to the cardiologist and he checked me out. I had one blocked artery, but it had bypassed itself. But I had AFib because of all that stress. And so they installed a pacemaker. And the FAA has dealt with pacemakers a long time.

There's what they call the Bruce Protocol, and I'll get to that in the moment. Well, the Apostle Paul said physical exercise is good. profiteth little it means it doesn't last. You have to do it every day. But that doesn't mean don't do it. He told him about it. He intended for him to do it. But spiritual exercise, of course, is greater than that.

That's more prosperous, is what he said. I had dealt with that already and got a lot of weight off. But then this thing happened. And I had the Lord say, I created you to rest 52 days a year. You don't rest 52 days in five years, and you're exhausted. So he was speaking to you about the Sabbath.

And when was that? Oh, back 2004. Wow. That was something that I had been getting convicted about recently was like, you know, there's a purpose that God designed the Sabbath. And you can get a lot done in six days. but you need to rest and

resting I have a really good treadmill and you can rest on that treadmill just go in there and take a nice walk I don't have to go outside to do it it's right there in my home now and

I don't but the exercise part is to get it moving get the heart going get the heart going get it going work it, work it, work it, work it, gradually work right up to it.

And so that's been a pretty consistent rhythm in your life since 2004. Well, now, 2004, the Lord directed me to do a live big band album with a group called Joshua Experience. Rehearsal, rehearsal, rehearsal, rehearsal. with his big band. And there are spots and places, I mean, anybody can Google it listening. And there were spots and places where, you know, it had to be correct. Normally I shower at night. And if you walk into my bathroom there, if I woke up to my shower stall, the shower head is here.

head is here. And there's a bench across here this way. And there were some other things that had happened right before that convention. And I was just exhausted. So I waited until Sunday morning to take my shower. And I just let that hot water go across me and I pitched the shower to the bench and it didn't make it. It went in the corner. I twisted to pick it up and I ruptured a disc in my back. And I screamed. I crawled out of that share or I couldn't walk.

Those are the worst. I crawled out of there. And the young man and his wife, there were chiropractors at that time, David and Lynn, Wheater, just screaming and screaming, I crawled out of there and Glory called him

just immediately. But then that was corrected with stem cells. I disobeyed God. I didn't do what he said. Start walking. Don't quit. I paid the price right there in that show. I had a bowl cut when I was younger, and I don't want you to have the same bowl I had,

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So I'm back with Brother Copeland here, and we're getting ready to dive into the scriptures. You know, I have a lot of questions about the prosperity, abundance, health, and well. You know, growing up, for me personally, if I'm being completely honest, it's really hard for me to wrap my mind around the prosperity message and things like that. And so I just kind of wanted to have some dialogue here. where do you get this from in scripture? Where do you see this? Kind of share my thoughts.

But before we kind of dive into the scripture and where you get your perspective, from your perspective, according to scripture, how do you define abundance and prosperity? Well, Jesus came and said, the thief comes but for to steal to kill and destroy. I've come that you might have life and have it more abundantly.

prosperity when one mentions prosperity most people think about money now money is not the root of all either the Bible said the love of it is and there are people that commit that that don't have any money that's right

true prosperity starts with John 316 that's where it starts absolutely and then you go from there you go to the second chapter of the book of Acts because being able to pray in the spirit is the gateway to the supernatural. And you're just not ready to prosper all that big financially yet.

But I would say, just from my experience over the last, oh, 57, 58 years, that the biggest part of Christians do not know that they've been redeemed from the curse of the law. What does that look like? Well, let's just take a look and see. Let's read this. Deuteronomy 818. Thou shalt remember, okay, we got to remember this. The Lord thy God, for it is he that gives you the power to get wealth,

that he may establish his covenant which he swore unto your fathers as it is this day. This is covenant business. and this book is a book of blood covenants. The blood of animals, blood by circumcision, the sinless blood of Jesus. Let's go over here to Galatian, Chapter 3, and then we'll go back and see what that curse looks like. 13th first, Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us, for it is written. Now, let me just stop right here, Brian. The integrity of this written word is absolutely essential.

Rightly dividing it is essential. Understanding what it means when one receives communion. When I finally realized that I'm a blood brother with Jesus Christ, I'd rather die than to do anything to shame him. Ever. Ever, ever. I don't remember now why our airplane was in a shop or something anyway. I was reading E.W. Kenyon's book, The Blood Covenant.

And this is back in the day when you could just take a shuttle, you know. This, listen to this, that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. I speak not after the manner of men, though it be but a man's covenant. yet if it be confirmed no man disann nulls or adds there too now verse 29 and if you be christ then are you Abraham seed and errs according to the promise now we got to go back over here and see what that's all about so we'll go back here to the book of Deuteronomy once again they had just come out of Egypt there's about two million of them so if you can imagine two of them on Mount

Evald and Mount Gerezine. There's a million of them over here on one side. They're shouting across the valley of Shackham. They're shouting across there. And they have come in and it comes back and said, now this day. So chapter 27, Moses with the elders of Israel commanded the people saying, keep all the commandments which I command you this day. And it shall be on the day when you pass over Jordan.

Now here's where we're going. And we get over Jordan, we're going to run into trouble. It shall be on this day when you pass over Jordan unto the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee that thou shalt set thee up great stones and plaster them with plaster and shall write upon the words of the law. Now let's stop right here.

When Cain killed Abel there was no law against it. So that began the law and the prophets. And once a prophet of God spoke something into this earth, there's no way the devil could get it out. he had it to deal with. And it started out, I'm going to paraphrase, there's coming one.

He's coming. Well, he killed every prophet he could find, thinking maybe this is the one. But there was a great announcement made one day in the Jordan River. Now, John the Baptist said, you know, I can't do this. I don't want to.

Jesus said this. You must do it, that all these things be fulfilled. Now, when you go back to God in the beginning, the word is, the plural, let us make man in our image. Right. So now we're headed in that direction.

And the word came, this is my beloved son. Here ye him. And the devil says, I got it. So he was on every prophet. He would kill everybody he possibly could. Trying to get up to that point. But this is so important to you, to me, and to all believers. Now, the verse 11, Moses charged the people the same

day saying, these shall stand on Mount Gerizim to bless the people when you come over Jordan. Simeon, Levi, Judah, okay, that's our side of the mountain. Ishikar, Joseph, and Benjamin. That's the Apostle Paul's side of the mountain. These shall stand on Mount Ebal. Now, Ebal was alkaline and nothing, I mean, couldn't anything grow on it when you really see a picture of it. to curse, Ruben, Gad, Asher, Zebulon, Dan, and Astellai, and the Levites shall speak and say unto all the men,

cursed be the man that makes a graven image, a molten engine image. Well, I have no other gods before me. I make no graven image. That's commandment number two. And all the people answer and say, cursed is he that set light by the father of his mother. And all the people shall say, I mean, there's roar going back across there. you probably could have heard it for miles.

Cursed is he that removes the neighbor's landmark. Now, come on over here to the 18th verse, our 20th chapter. It shall come to pass. If you will hearken diligently to the voice of the Lord thy God to observe and do all of his commandments, which I command thee this day, after the Lord thy God will set thee high above all nations of the earth. And all these blessings shall come on you and overtake you.

if you'll hearken or listen under the voice of Jehovah your God. Blessed shall you be in the city. Blessed shall you be in the field. Now, I want to stop right here. It's become the blessing of Abraham. But if he go to book one, he created everything and blessed it and saw that it was good. Yeah. And he created this whole garden and everything before he put the man in it.

And if you take a good look at that, blast is the first word the first man ever heard. So it was the blessing of Adam. But it came down to be the blessing of Abraham for this reason. Abraham 17th chapter of Genesis. Well, let's go over. That's good. One of my Bible teachers grown up said always be a good, respectful skeptic, like read the word. You notice, well, let me put it this way.

You can't fight thoughts with thoughts. Jesus said, why take you thought saying? You shall say under this mountain. You can't think it and get anything done about it. You can't fight thoughts with, you have to fight thoughts with words. And faith-filled words dominate the laws of sin and death. Now, Genesis 17. Abram, you need to go back and study Abram.

This is some kind of guy now. I mean, all those kings came against him. And, you know, old Chad said, I'll take the people. I'll take the money. Abram said, don't ever let it be said that any man made Abram rich, but almighty God, I don't want the strings out of your shoes.

Well, he just armed his household. So you know, there was a lot of supernatural stuff in that. Because they owned the night. Well, when I was in the U.S. Army, we ruled the night. I mean, that's, but that's where it started. I am El Shaddai. El Shadai is the God who's more than enough. It really refers to a woman's breast that when a woman has children, like Gloria, for instance,

she's everything. She could understand what they said, and I didn't have a clue. But she spent all day and all night with them. Well, I am El Shidae, walk before me and be perfect, be blameless. I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. Abram fell on his face. And you might think like this,

there's been a whole lot more times than once. I fell on my face, and God spoke with me. That was true when I went to O'RU because I had $24,000 left. I'd had an open vision. I knew I was supposed to be there. And I just fell on my face. on this little house that they had arranged for us. I just fell flat of my face, man,

just praying in the spirit just as fast as I could. And I stopped and thought, I wonder if he'd say anything if I was to make. Well, it's about time. I couldn't get anything in Ed's white. Get on your feet. Man, I hit a military brace. I was standing there shaking all night.

Just shaking all over. He said, I sent you here. I'll take care of you here. Your ministry doesn't start. If you get out of school, it starts now. They can't make a minister out of you. I've already made a minister out of you. All they can do is train you.

I went out and Gloria said, what happened to all night long? I said, where does my direction? So I had already been to orientation. Mrs. Campbell is printing the first quarter. I don't have any money. I said, Ms. Campbell, may I make a collect call, yeah, I'll dial nine. I'll call my dad. He said, where are you?

I said, I'm a registrar's office in Old Roberts University. Why? He said, Eddie Matthews, now Eddie Matthews was in the construction business. He had no idea where I was. Eddie Matthews came by and brought a check and said it was for your ministry. I said, how much? $375.15. Wow.

And I had about the 15 cents later, and I thought, well, Gloria and I'll get a candy bar and go broke. So, now he said he'd take care of me, paid that bill. And the Lord absolutely arrested me out there in front of the LRC. Go up to the sixth floor. And this just came out of my mouth. I said, no, that's the Vatican. I'm not supposed to be up there. Right in here.

Where any, not out out here. Where any believer has it? They worked for me. First thing I had to do is find the elevator. I couldn't do it. I pushed the fifth floor. It's just open. Well, it was the first year of O-R-U.

I didn't know it. It was the library. It didn't have anything in it yet. He said floor six. Okay. Remember now, I'll take care of you here. That elevator opened. I walked up to this woman.

I said, my name's Kenneth Copeland. I just registered for school. I'm a commercially rated pilot, and I need all the help I can get. she said tell Dean Zinnick. Sir, I am a, I just registered today, and I'm a commercially rated pilot. I understand this minister used aircraft. I need all the help I can get.

He went, hmm, I turned around. My name's oral Roberts. I actually stuttered. I listened to this. I got my first faith listen. Two weeks ago, I started to hire. a new copilot. The Spirit of the Lord said,

that's the same spirit that said, I'll take care of you here. The Spirit of the Lord said, I have a student coming, and you're my man. Tell Brother Luis, we got our Copilot. The Spirit of God told him. No, don't hire that guy.

I have a student coming that's supposed to have the job. He's not going to tell me that ahead of time. I might have to walk by faith, which I did. Well, he became my father in the spirit. That kind of trust, I realized out there in front of that LRC, he arrested me. I actually had the where I just kind of stuck. I realized I could have turned and walked off and said, no, I don't, I don't have any money. I'd have been a world to hurt because I didn't need any more money. Then later, this wasn't so cool.

A man by the name of Colin Steele was head of everything on the road. I was in two of the last tent meetings at that they had. And things, he said, I'll take care of you here. Things began to advance. And Brother Steele came to me, and he said, Kenneth, you're a grown man, I want you drive the rev's car. Well, all right. And Brother Deweese said, now, don't start a conversation with him.

You let him go first. So we were in Oklahoma City. He wouldn't let anything disturb his thinking because of the gift he had in his right hand. And it was so powerful. He just stopped. He had his brother. He said, Kenneth, I jumped. People will always tell you you can't do it.

Find out the will of God. Now, that's when you search this book. and that's when you pray and talk and think things about it. Confirm no longer with flesh and blood. Get your job done at all cost. One, two, three. You know, I think you said something interesting earlier about like abundance and prosper

when we were introing into that subject. You know, you mentioned something. You said, you know, the love of money, there's people that don't have money that struggle with the love of money. I grew up, I worked on boats in Destin, Florida, and I had a co-worker, double my age, who had no money, atheist, wouldn't believe in Jesus.

I would talk to him about him all the time. And I'm right there with you. I agree. I don't think there's a dollar amount on someone's bank account that makes it sinful. Because obviously, my coworker at the time, he really struggled with money. I think the hardest thing for me to wrap my mind around, like, the name it, claim it, the prosperity for me is when I look at in the 2 Corinthians passage of Paul, right? Right. Paul is writing about that thorn in his side. And, you know, there's theological debate on what that is.

But, you know, he says, I'm grateful for this thorn because it keeps me humble and relying on God. Oh, absolutely. And so it's hard for me to wrap my mind around this idea that God wants everyone to be wealthy, everyone to be healthy and things like that. No, doesn't say that. It says that. We want everybody to prosper. John said it I pray that you prosper and be in health as yourself will prospering.

Being rich is more than enough to take care of what you have and enough left over to help somebody take care of themselves. So is it so is... Now let me back up. Gloria and I started out with nothing.

And now we have offices and staff on five continents. We didn't, try to do that. We started out on the radio. I was in North Texas there in a little town called Herbert, Texas. And I had my outlines laid out before the bed there. And the way I do my preaching outlines, the title is in blue and the scripture's in red. And I was praying about what I'm to do tonight. And the Lord said, is there victory in the new birth? Absolutely. Is there victory in the filling of the Spirit? Certainly. Is there victory in the healed body? Yes. Now, that's part of your prosperity,

is to live well and not be sick, divine health. That is really prosperous. I didn't know you could do that until I've lived it. And he said, every believer has a voice, and it is the voice of victory. Now, I was on the radio, and I would start out that way. And then I had a little FM thing. in my own studio and I had a couple of records there and so and I did the theme song and I was going along I said you're not sick and you're not going to die and I thought wow that is strong and then later on we got a written testimony this woman was in the hospital they had just they had the doctors had just left her room and said there's nothing we can do you are going to die she said my arm just went over to the radio and turned it

on. I heard you now. Someone else had it tuned in with that, obviously. And she said, I said, I'm not. So she sent down to the little deal downstairs and ordered a Bible up. So she looked up the scripture references. And then she said, I went home. I'm perfectly healed. We paid off my husband's truck. And now the three of us have started the church. That's prosperity. Let me ask you about that healing aspect, too, because I believe in the supernatural. I believe God still heals today. I do also believe that there are instances, though, where we pray and ask God for healing. I'll give you a prime example.

The whole reason I became a believer was because I was struggling with anxiety and depression, and Jesus supernaturally encountered me when I was 17, and I prayed and said, Jesus, if you're real, take away my anxiety and depression. He took it away. I haven't had it since that day. And I've prayed that same prayer. for close family members, friends, loved ones, who struggle with it just as bad,

if not sometimes even worse. And God doesn't seem to take their anxiety into question. Well, he didn't say, you were talking to him about you. You're talking about family members. Now their will is involved. Now if you're gonna intercede for them, that's a different thing. But in your intercession and supplication,

second chapter of the book of Timothy, first of all, prayers of intercession, so forth, which is good in the sight of God our savior who gave himself as a ransom for all. Just praying for him and going to do it. Now, in some cases it might. If you just intercede long enough, the witness is stronger than the intercession because they know your testimony. But they're going to have to receive it on their own.

And you do it with the book. So what would you say then, like, for example, going back to that example of Paul, right? You know, he has that thorn in his side. That's dealing with him, you know, persistently. It seems like in that... Well, if you check and see what that was? What the thorn exactly was? No, what, if you go, it was the care and worry about all the churches.

That was the thorn in his side. Now, there are those that said he had sick eyes and all that, but he said, I've been delivered from all of that. Where did he say, where does he say that part? I'm just curious. I'd have to look it up. You'd just have to go and look it up in your concourse. But he said, I have been delivered of all of these things. Now, here's what you have to understand about him.

Like in the book of Philippians, he used the word joy in one form of another 18 times. While he was in the worst prison, you could possibly imagine. This man is a hero of heroes, brother. He is the hero. But he said, he didn't say I am. He said, I know how to be abased. I know how to be hungry. I know how to have plenty.

I know how. Didn't say I am. He said, I know how. So you study his life and read everything. He's the same one when he wrote to the church in Rome about Abraham. He's the same one. Well, let's turn over there, Romans 4. What shall we say then Abraham, Abraham, our father,

as pertaining to the flesh, hath found. For if Abraham are justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God. What says the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness, or just right standing with God. Now, to him that works in the reward, not reckoned of the grace, but of debt.

But to him that works not, but believes on him, justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness, even as David also described the blessedness of the man whom God imputeeth righteousness without works, saying, Blessed are they that inquiries are forgiven, his iniquities are forgiven, whose sins are covered,

blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Now let's come over here to the, well, the 13th verse, for the promise, now remember, every time you see the word promise, there's blood involved some way another, for the promise that he should be heir of the world. was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

For if they that are of the law or errors, faith is made void. The promise made of none effect, because the law works whereat, for there is, now look at this. Therefore, it is of faith that it might be by grace to the end that the promise might be sure to all the seed,

not to that only which is of the law, but that also which is, is the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all. As it is written, I have made you a father of many nations before him or like him, whom believe God who quickeneth to dead and call of those things to be not as though they were. I call my body well. I don't watch television at night. I still listen to Brother Hagen, even though he's in heaven.

I have a cell phone with no SIM card. So I have him right there. That's the way Gloria and I got it. I was listening to it on tape. So I have it now. First words and last words. Well, I just used today, for instance, with Gloria. Good night and my love.

I love the Lord my God with all of my heart, all of my soul, all of my mind, and all of my strength. I love my neighbor as myself fulfilling all the law and the prophets. In John 13, 34, and 35, the master said, I give you a new commandment. that you love one another as I have loved you. And tonight, Father, my neighbor. And I'll tell you who my neighbor is right now. Joe Biden. They announced that he has prostate cancer.

This is not politics. This is life, brother. And if they held that back and he dies of prostate cancer, somebody is really guilty. Well, I'm not the judge. The book is. So I pray in the spirit for his whole family to be delivered. Jesus said, send labors across their paths with the message.

And I pray that. As it is written, as it is written. Tithing is absolutely essential for the prosperous life. Let's go back over there at the blessing of Abraham in the 28th chapter of Deuteronomy. Just so you know the way I do my Bible. And that one that I just took back, David Barton was doing television to me Monday. He said, where do you get a white high? lighter. We wrote a book of Hebrews, and at one time or another, I had just highlighted everything

in there, so that's my favorite book. Hebrews is great. Oh, yeah. It's great. I'm telling you. Do you think Paul wrote it? Absolutely. Yeah. He mentions Timothy in it. I mean, come on. Let me paraphrase. In the book of Galation, let's go over there. We got to go over there. I mean, we're here. We got to go over there. You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Econium, and at Listra, which persecutions I endured, yet from them all, the Lord rescued me. I pray over my food every day, according to the letter that the Apostle Paul wrote to his son,

Timothy. I received my food blessed and sanctified according to the word of God in prayer. And I pray for my partners every meal. I pray for the midterms every year. I pray for the protection. Now, I want you to notice this. In chapter 1, verse 14, profited in the Jews religion above many of my equals in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous.

So he was a zealot of the traditions of my fathers. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me who has grace, to reveal, now get it, to reveal his sons. son in me that I might preach him among the heathen immediately. I conferred not with flesh and blood, neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which are apostles before me. But I went into Arabia and returned again. Then three years. Mary at the tomb thought it was the gardener. And he said, don't touch me. Well, what happened then that don't touch me? And, uh, happened. He's the only one that said 500. No one else said that. When this happened, another

scripture, in the body, out of the body, I cannot tell, God knows. So in Arabia, he went where Moses went, and he sat there. He didn't need a veil. He's a born again, Holy Ghost, baptized, tongue-talking Christian. And when Jesus appeared to him, he said, I've already shown him what he must suffer for my namesake. Why? To prove that this new covenant works to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. He's the only man qualified. None of the apostles were qualified because this man sat at the feet of Gamalio. Gamalio's word is accepted. Rabbis of rabbis. This man was a rabbi of rabbi. But they hated him because of what he wrote. They did. They tried to stone him. They tried to chase him out. And then he got up and glinting

him wouldn't stop him. Shortest salvation prayer in history. Who are you, Lord? I'm Jesus that you persecute what you want me to do. And in that, he was like Abraham, whatever he told him he did it. Now, when it comes to my understanding of this idea of prospering, right? Let's go back over the book of Deuteronomy now. Back to Deuteronomy in 28? Yes. We need to go back over there because we need to find out where the financial part of it comes.

In Deuteronomy 26 from 12 through 15, or all of the tithes, I have listened to the voice of the Lord my God and have done according to all you've commanded me. Look down from your holy habitation from heaven and bless your people, Israel, and the land which you've given us that you've sworn unto our fathers a land that flows with milk and honey. In the book of Exodus, he said, I'll have no poor in the Jubilee, the 50 years. In case you have poor, you send back everything they have. I won't have any poor people in my nation.

Chapter 28, it will come to pass, but you're going to have to believe it. It will come to pass. If you will hearken diligently, now that's different from just reading once in a while. This is spending time searching the scriptures. This spend time, our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. thy kingdom come, thou will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. I was praying that.

And the Lord said, and I'd been praying for a good while, studying, listening, I'd just start praying. He said, you look up. Give us this day our daily bread. He said, what is your daily bread? He said, your daily bread is going to be to the nations. Oh, really? I didn't know we were going to come to a place where we are now.

Let me give you my own personal situation. We have a board of directors. They set my salary. I don't. They do. According to the IRS guidelines, and they don't let me be in a room when they do. And since the ministry has an airplane, if for some reason or other that I use that airplane before God, but for vacation or something for my family, there is an internal revenue to a,

a thing for that, and I pay taxes on it. The reason this ministry uses an airplane, as life is saying, is because we started out, and I was praying about this. We were just getting started, and we were there in Tulsa, and I came in from school. I said, Glory, I have a disturbance in my spirit. Now, the man that owned that house we were renting, he was a lawyer. Well, I want to stay four more years and go to seminary. And I had him write at the Kenneth Copeland Evangelistic Association.

I'd already had him do the papers. So the Arkansas River is out of just one house, and I was in the riverbed there. I went down in there and prayed in the spirit until it was judged about dark. And all I heard again was nations, nations, nations. So I started up out of there, and then the Lord said, your wife is precious to me. I have given her to you She is to you what temper is to steal

Well, I was in metal shop In high school and you had to temper I was making tools and you had to temper it Or you'd break it But this nation's thing came up But I pretty well forgot about it So school's out I'm ready to go

I'm what I'm gonna do here in this summer I don't know I'm just kind of sat down there I had my suit on I had my Bible and I had my legal pad. And I said, okay, Lord. And down to my spirit, he said,

I want you to go back to Fort Worth. Lord, now he said, I'll take care. You know what happened to you in your hometown. I don't want to go back to Fort Worth. The greatest part of your destiny is there. Phone rang. Glory said, Brother Nichols wants to talk to you. Well, he was pastor of Grace Temple Church.

And so Gloria and I and John and Kelly were re-baptized in water there in that church. So he's in my pastor. When can you come to me for a meeting? I said, well, Brother Nichols, I'd like to say I'd need to check my schedule, but I won't have one. Now, we had had a devastating car wreck in the, at Marshall, Texas, and Halloween night before. And the only car I had was an old worn-out Osmobile that had about 90,000 miles on it when we got it. And that's the only car I had. I'm nursing this thing down the highway. So, but course, when I got there,

I had another car drive, at least I was, for my folks, I stayed that about a folk. We walked in there and mother came in there and said, Gloria come out, I said, Gloria. I said, Mama, you got any tapes? Yeah, look in there. They had a thing there, the previous owner had a home screen. They just set this thing out and set this tape recorder on it.

You know, I'm thinking about that big. There's a white box. Huh. On the first side, you can write your own ticket with God. And the flip side, Paul's revelation. Kenneth E. Hagen. That's the first time I ever heard anything like that in my life. I said, glory, we have to have everything this man had.

And that started that. And the teaching that came from both of these men. Now, I want you to notice this. This is very important the way this is worded. It will. What verse is that that you're in? Chapter 28, verse 1. It will come to pass if you shall listen diligently to the voice of the Lord your God,

to observe and do all of His commandments which I command thee this day, that the Lord God will set you high above all nations on the earth. In God's mind, that's everybody in the nation. You can't have a nation without people. All these blessings shall come on you and overtake you. If you hearken under the voice, if you listen to it, listen to me. Bless shall you be in the city. Bless shall you be in the field.

Let's stop right there. Let's talk about Job. He was a very wealthy guy. Oh, yeah. The only person that did what the, there wasn't but one sin, he will curse you to your face. And God said, but you can't touch his life. His wife did it, not Job, and brought the devil down on the family. He did it.

whole thing. There was a blessing wall around him. The hedge of protection. Yeah. It's the same blessing. He said, you've blessed him. I can't get in there to him. Blessing is more than just what you do when you sneeze. It is a power from God. You can't break it. You can't get through it. It's an invisible force. In many cases, it is translated very happy, but it takes diligence. It takes a concerted, diligent study of this book. Yeah, with the, like, okay, so this message of prosperity and abundance and things like that, you know, I know you go to a lot of prisons and do a lot of prison ministry. I think that's another thing that's hard for me to, like, wrap my mind around for guys like who are in prison, you know.

I've been to a state prison in Georgia where most of those men are in their life without parole. You know, how could... Okay, let me ask you. What does he need to prosper? He just needs Jesus. There you are. That's his prosperity message. And to be strong enough to witness while he's in there.

I've done a lot of prison ministry with Mark Barber. It started really before that. And I won't go into all the details, but I was teaching in a prison. One of these men said, Copeland, we like to play baseball in here. But yeah, I don't blame me. I like baseball myself. These little old short bats, terrible. I said, what did you have in mind?

He said a 36 inch Joe Jackson and he said, it has to be a Louisville slugger. I don't want anything else. And the other guy said, yeah, these crummy little bats we've been getting, there was a prison. I said, you have to do it in faith. I said, get your Bibles. Let's go to the Book of Matthews, see what the master said. And so we agreed. The prison truck came in there and had a big box.

It wasn't on the list. He said, I don't, I'm supposed to bring these here. But there's nothing labeled on the box. I don't know what's in there. One of them was a Louisville slugger, 36-inch Joe Jackson. So to him, that's prosperity. Because he prayed about this thing. He had learned half.

Now, one of them had 700 years. In prison? Yeah. Wow. He walked me to the gate. Now, Lawrence Harvey was warden in the Huntsville unit at that time. And, too, by the way, I baptized a serial killer named Stephen Moran in the Barra County Jail in San Antonio. And he kidnapped a woman.

He had killed 24 women. He kidnapped a woman. Marjor Colt. She kept telling him she's the only one that loved him. And he told her, if you don't shut up, I'm going to kill you. No, you know, I'm going to kill the only person. Never love you. Well, can I put my tape in? Yeah. Well, it was a tape of me preaching. And he slammed on the brakes and said, who said that and looked in the backseat?

The voice said, Stephen, this is your last chance, son. She led him to the Lord right there. Well, I was on there as his spiritual advisor. Or they only had to convict him of one, and they did. He said, I don't want any repeat. He said, I only have one five-year-old boy. I don't want him to know I even existed in my terrible, terrible life. He let me know that he wanted me to meet him in Golden, Colorado.

I'm on his book there. He said, I never heard of any of this they're going on with. But he said, they're just clearing their books. I said, now, Stephen, you have time to become an expert on prayer. Well, yeah, he said, I'll have time enough to do that. So I said, I'm going to figure, I said, now listen, you promise me you will pray about anything you do from now on. I give you my word. So he went upstairs.

He got up there, and his cell door was ajar. And he told me, he said, I looked. I could take my sheets and drop that out over there, and I'm gone. But I promised Brother Copeland I'd pray. And he said, I said, I got on my knees, and I said, Father, in the name of Jesus, I fell asleep. and I slept all night long. He said, I realized it was a trap. They were going to kill me on the other side of that wall.

Because when they came in there and found me awake and my cell door not shut, he said, they looked kind of stupid. Now, fast forward. We were caged like this. There was a thing right up here, and I'm talking to him like this. And I asked him, I said, everything all right?

Oh, yeah, yeah. He said, now, everything's fine. He said, I'm fixing to go home. He said, I hardly wait. I said, Stephen, I'm going to tell you. Do me a favor. The scripture says that grace is enough, yeah. I said, let me know with you.

So since I was his spiritual advisor, I was as close as that wall right there. Just a few feet away a little railing here. I could see him. He could look down there at me and the lights were bright. And when that lethal injection start, it makes a bang. So you know you're going to be gone here in a few seconds.

And he looked down there, it means two thumbs up, and he's gone. Grace was more. Serial killer. But I had to go to the book. When I baptized him in that gentleman, I mean, they had their pistols like this. You know, they have a tub there, as you know. I told him, I said, gentlemen, everything would be all right. When he came up out of that water, I mean to tell you, if there's,

There was, if any man's face I have ever seen was a glow, it was his. Something had to happen first. Number one, he gave me his word. I took it. Number two, he did what I asked him to do. He became an expert on prayer, and he's leading other people to the Lord and praying for their families and for their lives and for them. Now, they're prospering in the jail.

So you can see where prosperity has a whole, look at it like this. it's a pie. And there's one slice in it here that's money. And it's money enough to take care of everything you need. It's money enough to be out of debt. I taught that at the minister's conference one year. And the pastor came back the next year and told me what happened.

He said, I went home. And he said, my wife and I prayed, and the congregation prayed. and we're going to build this new sanctuary. We're debt-free. So he said, I went to the bank, I went in, and he said, I asked him, I can see so-and-so, and they said,

Pastor, he's working on your loan now. And he said, I went in there, and oh, he grabbed me by the hand. He said, Pastor, it's looking good. He said, well, I just want to tell you we decided to do it debt-free. He said, he changed, and he looked at me, and I will not repeat what he called me. You know you can't do this without us. He would have had that spirit in his life.

It's because they're money that he borrowed. There's this word kind up here, K-I-N-E. Do you see it? In what verse? In the fourth verse. The increase of your kind. That is the end.

increase, that's not kind, it's kind. Now, they're farm people. All the oxen, everything you need. Because this is Elshadow. Everything you need. What do you need? Come to me. The increase of your kind. Our kind here was aircraft. Because the ministry started with a little single engine Sessna. But even with that, some man asked me, he said, why do you want an airplane? I said, well, to go fast. Why? not? And besides, that is safer than driving down the highway. And I go to places for a meeting. Airlines don't even go there. And even this small four-place airplane. And I was flying it and getting into places and getting into, but I needed a twin-engine airplane because this is not an all-weather airplane. You understand why. Anyway, I needed two engines for safety.

and well, speed and everything else. So I just traded it in on a Cessna 310 was twin-engine airplane. But that's my kind. That's in the blessing. Now. So you're relating like the kind in Deuteronomy 28

to today. Your kind is an actual flock. This room is my kind. I see what you're saying. I need this. These mics are our kind. This is our kind today. We need money enough to pay for this.

And money enough to you don't have a debt on any of it. You don't go down to Sears and Roebuck and buy something like this on debt. This is an expensive piece of equipment. But your ministry doesn't need to go borrow money at the bank to buy these things. That is to prosper in your ministry and to do it without debt. So you just take it a day at a time, whatever is necessary, and put back absolutely tithe.

Glory and I tithe personally, the church tithes, the ministry tiths. We sow into other ministries. And then by doing so over the years, the money that this ministry has saved by not owing is over $53 million. Anything the ministry purchased, that goes up. That's prosper.

Now, there's something I want to get to here. He will establish you a holy people unto him. himself. That's verse nine. All the people of the earth shall see that you're called by my name, saith the Lord. That is huge. He said to Solomon, build a place, Bill told David, build a place for my name. You won't do it, but your son will. A place for his name. E.MIC is a place for his name. There's no debt on it. It's just the opposite of this, really. The Lord shall open unto you his good treasure, the heaven, to give rain upon your land in his season,

to bless the work of your hand that you may lend to many nations and not borrow. Wow. You'll make you the head and not the tail. That's prosperity. I don't want to be the tail. I want to be the head. But it was the head a little bit of time. Didn't happen overnight, of course not.

You should not be beneath. If you harken to listen to the commandments, now just turn this page. Now, here we go. Deuteron number 2814. And thou shall not go aside from the words which I command thee this day to the right hand or the left or another gods to serve them. But it shall come to pass if you will not listen

to the voice of the Lord thy God to observe and do all of his commandments and statutes which I command you this day. Now, he get this all, These curses will come on you and overtake you. Cursed shall you be in the city. Curse shall ye be in the field. The Lord shall send.

Well, no. He doesn't send it. They're here. It really should be he'll have to allow. Because you're not hearkening. You're not listening in other words. Listen what he said. Cursing, vexation, rebuke, and all you set your hand to do until you perish quickly

because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou shalt forsake me. Consumption, inflammation, extreme burning, no rain. Look at this one, 46. They shall be on you for a sign and a wonder, and upon your seed forever, because you serve me not the Lord thy God with joyfulness and with gladness of heart for the abundance of all things. Well, the 61st verse then just covers it. Also ever sickness and ever plague, which is not written in the,

book of this law will the Lord bring upon you till you be destroyed. But we've been redeemed from it. That doesn't belong to us. Spiritual death, sickness and disease, spiritual life, born again filled with the Holy Spirit, living in divine health and prosperity. And the prosperous part as it grows is like this. Glory now went before the Lord. We had been on 700 radio stations, which was somewhat of a record. But then the Lord called us on television. We'd gone to our prayer cabin in Arkansas, and we stopped at Denny's for breakfast. And I looked at her, and she kind of looked at me. I said, are you thinking what I'm thinking? She said, you first. I said, television. She said, yeah, how are we going to do it? I don't know. I don't have any idea. Well, it's going to take more

money. So we began to write out our agreement, covenant, us with one another. We have never in a partner letter ever put any kind of a price in there except one time when we went on that television. Our whole ministry budget the year before was a little over $375,000. And I put in there for the price of a pair of tennis shoes, $12.95. We can see inflation is taking care of that. We can do this together. That's one and only time. Our radio bill was 400,000. in the month the next year, well, taking care of. All of this has the between the blessing and the cursing. Now, it does good to read all of this, and then read it in the amplified,

and I mean the diseases themselves are actually listed there. So with this prosper message that we're bouncing around through scripture and reading about, you know, you mentioned that like, oh, for the man in prison, prosperity looks different than maybe the man that grows up in Georgia, and the man that's in Africa and the person in China. Now, like, I think you and I can agree, like, true prosperity is Jesus Christ. Oh, absolutely. Starts John 316.

I mean, I love that you said that. My mind has such the hardest time wrapping around, you know, what if God doesn't always give people what they want? What if God doesn't always do that? When did he say he wouldn't do that? Well, when I'm reading the scriptures, for example, like when I look at the Gospels, right? when we look at Jesus sending out the 72, for example. Now, he's getting them to learn to trust him. He said, don't bring a knapsack, don't bring a tunic, don't bring an extra pair of shoes.

They're working for him now. He said he wasn't a poor man or he wouldn't have a treasurer. And he was stealing out of that bag and Jesus was the only one that knows it. If Peter had done it, I think he'd tried to kill it. He had a garment that had no seams in it. The madman of Godera. clothed and in his right mind. Where'd they get the clothes in the book of Mark?

Went across there. This man was in the tombs, night and day. He was a cutter. Naked. But then he wanted to go with him. He was clothed and in his right mind. Where did he get those clothes? And he's going to call a man to preach.

You don't want him looking like this. Are you talking about the man in Mark 5 with the Legion? Yeah. Yeah, he was naked, cutting himself. Yeah, naked. But then you see, he was clothed and in his right mind. Well, you don't put a man in his right mind, turn him loose naked to go preaching the Bacopoulos.

He was clothed. Jesus clothed him. He prospered him. He's a preacher. And he told him to tell them what great things and what compassion God had had upon him. So what he preached? Same thing.

So the basis then of prosperity, you go with the Book of James. What good does it say be warmed without corresponding action to faith? Here it is. Be blessed, but leave him naked. And there are cases like a medical doctor, Dr. Bill Reed, powerful. He was operating on a baby, and it died. And he just held his hand over that little baby and said, And the little baby came alive.

It changed his life absolutely forever. So for the person that, let's say someone hears this prosperity message, right? They're listening, they're trying to apply, they're trying to read the scriptures, they're doing the things, nothing's changing. Maybe they have a sickness, sickness isn't going. Their finances aren't changing. Is that like a problem on the person, or is that what? Don't quit. Absolute necessity to tie.

Oh, that's old covenant. Oh, come on. Hebrews is in the new, right? Hebrews is in the new. Hebrews chapter 7. There's an interesting scripture in 1st John. We have known and believed the love that God has for us. Do you believe God loves you?

Oh, yes, Brother Copeland. I don't know. What are we redeemed from? Sin, I guess. Stranger from the covenants of promise in the book of Ephesian, an alien from the Commonwealth of His religion. without hope and without God in the world. Are you going to get healed?

Oh, Brother Copeland, I sure hope so. The right kind of hope is necessary. Because faith is the substance of things hoped for. So what's my hope? Brother Copeland, you're going to get healed? Absolutely. How do you know? My hope is strong.

Therefore, I have faith. I fully expect it. What if it doesn't happen? I missed it, not God. I missed it. Here, right here. Or there's some little something I've got against somebody that forgive those who have any ought against you. It's 11th chapter of Book of Mar. Anyway, I want you to see this in the book of Hebrews in the seventh chapter. Without all contradiction, the less is blessed of the better. That's chesed. When you see the word loving kindness, that's Hesed is the way you pronounce it

Chesid There was a British missionary And Gave me like this He said I was headed back to London And he said That somebody wanted me to go See this native guy

And so he said I went And I taught on Hesed If you see the big elephant And the little elephant And the big elephant raises out of here you're about to get a taste of hesitant. But the little elephant gets exactly what his mama gets.

Equal. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus. We thought it not robbery to it. Called equal with God. Where joy at heirs with Christ. And he said, come, come, come, everybody. God wants us to touch fingers. That's the way they made covenant.

They would slit their fingers like this. and they became blood brothers. And you walk up to the bank, and that's the way there's no way that we're going to be anything wrong here. Of course we're brothers. Here, men that die receive tithes, but there he receives them

of whom it is witness that he's alive. So we take our tithe. Let's go to Mark chapter 10. This is where people get all out of shape. Verse 17. When he was gone forth in the way, there came one running and kneeled to him. So now get this picture.

This is the rich young ruler. Yeah. Oh, I'm glad you turned to this. I had the one in Luke bookmarked because I think this is, I mean, this passage is the one. It's so precious. and he asked him, good master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? Jesus said unto him, why do you call me good?

There's none good but one, and it's God. You know the commandments. Do not commit adultery. Don't kill, don't steal, don't bear false witness, defraud not honor your father and mother. He left four of them out. There's a reason why. He answered and said, all of these I have observed from my youth. Jesus beholding him loved him and said unto him one thing you lack go and sell whatever you have

give to the poor and you'll inherit heaven take up the cross and come follow me he offered him apostleship and he couldn't take it because he's going to take care of his needs from now on I don't care how much money is and he was sad at the saying and went away grieve had great procession. Now, after he's gone, he answered the question. Looked around about his disciples and said, how hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God? Not that they have them, the riches have them.

He turned away from him. He didn't have to leave. He could have just said, well, that makes me mad enough to spit. But I ask you, and I'm going to stay with you to lie, find out. He just left. Yeah, he loved his money more than he loved God. He really did. That's the danger. That is the danger. Anyway, listen to the rest of this. His disciples were astonished at his words. Well, they sure weren't, they sure weren't poorer.

I mean, they'd have shouted at that. How hard it is for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God. Easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And they were astonished out of measure saying among themselves, who then can be saved. Jesus looking away. Now the word saves, sozo, includes healing. It means soundness. It includes healing, prosperity, saved.

Save from what? Poverty, save from what? Saved. Jesus look upon themselves with men, it's impossible not with God. For God, all things are possible. So my question is, who am I truly with?

with all of my heart, all of my soul, all of my mind, all of my strength, all of my wealth, everything I have, it's his. Look at this. There's no man that has left house, brethren, sisters, father, mother, wife, children, lands for my sake in the gospels, but shall receive a hundredfold now in this time. houses, brethren, sisters, mothers, children, lands with persecutions and in the world to come eternal life. Well, certainly it's going to be with persecutions.

The one thing the devil fights is his financial ability to do whatever God tells you to do. He fights it. He writes dirty books about you, which I have experienced. The Lord said, don't read about yourself in any place. publication anymore, including social media. And there are some that, you know, they put in there all of this property, everything on it, you know, it's worth anywhere close to what it says. But anything the devil can do to stop the money, I had Brother Roberts tell me, he said, if the money is choke, check you love, love. I think, yeah, I think, yeah, I think, you,

You mentioned earlier, and then we'll take a break. You mentioned something earlier. You were like, that was the danger. You know, this man loved his money more than he loved God. You know, that's why he walks away. And I think someone said that it was actually Barnabas. I don't really know where in history they said that. Anyway, go ahead.

You know, you mentioned that the dangers that he loved his money more than he loved God. And I think that's one of the reasons why it's hard for me personally to wrap my mind around that prosperity message is because it has a lot to do with the finances. And, you know, we talked about it. It's not necessarily the dollar amount in someone's bank account that makes money sinful or not. It's the love of money. You know, there are people that don't have money that love their money more than they love anything else, you know.

But I think that's why it's hard for me personally to really wrap my mind around these things that we're talking about because I've personally seen, and I bet you have, too, seen money destroy people. Oh. And it rocks their world. And so, like, how can we, you know, how can we, as believers, show people who don't know Jesus at all that he is the prize? You know, because that can be attractive, you know, having the benefits of blessing.

I mean, the reality is blessing as a blanket statement, as believers, we get to be blessed in any form of fashion. I had a promise of school. I had a, Gloria and I were at a Target store one day. And this, this card, this. tires just squealed. Brother Copeland, brother Copeland, brother Copeland, brother Copeland, the Lord told me he'd be here. She had two small children in the back. I walked over there to the car. I said, what is it? She said, I'm a school teacher. My home has become more valuable. And the bank,

she said, I'm only behind two payments. And the bank won't renew my loan. What do I do? I said, what's your name and phone number? So we checked out her story and paid off her house. That would have really hurt my heart if I'd have said, Sister, I wish I could help you, but I owe so much money. I just can't do that. We have done that time and time and time and time and time again. And there's a particular restaurant that's a national chain.

Well, it's the Appleby's restaurant. and there's a particular one in this area. And we haven't been there in some time. But we had an Applebee's ministry. An Applebee's ministry? It got out, you know, that we would help people like that, and we did. And there were some cars involved in it that we helped people. And this one man was a former Marine.

And Glory wrote a book, God's will for you. And in that book is God's will is prosperity. So he read it. I mean he read it over and over and over again. And he came in there to me one day, and he said, Brother Cobley, would you lay your hands on me? He said, I really don't feel very good. Now, he had a little daughter that was very, very shy.

And I would do this to her, and she'd come over there. And finally she got to where she'd come sit by me. He said, her school teacher called me in and said, you're going to have to do something to this girl here. Why? she says Kenneth Copeland is her personal friend. He said, well, he is. Now what?

Oh. So he just bought a new truck. He died of cancer. Broke. His wife, he had custody of the time. So we put it together. We paid off the truck. We paid for his homegoing service and started having his mother.

Well, praise God. That's what it's all about. Today's sponsor for our episode is my company, praise, energy, energy with a higher purpose. We've been developing this company for over a year so that people know that the energy drinks and the hydration that are being put out are coming from a gospel-centered, faith-driven business, where you know the heart behind the company, the people behind the company, love Jesus and want to see everyone know him as well. There's so many brands out there online that push different agendas and doctrines, and why support those businesses when you can support people who actually want to see the gospel go forth? Our energy drink has 100 milligrams of caffeine that comes from green tea extract, and we use monk fruit, organic cane show, and stevia to sweeten the drink to offer the cleanest sweetener possible furthermore every energy drink electrolyte package and all of our products are prayed over before it hits our website or even

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Because this was working all the time. I turned exactly to that every time, every time. So I think for me personally, one of the hardest things for me when it comes to this prosperity message. when I look I mentioned to you earlier about my co-worker Mitch who was had little to know money but he was obsessed with money and I I believe that he would always say Bryce you know I pray to God and I ask God for money and if God gives me money I'll believe in him and that obviously never happened and so he looks at me and he goes well well God's not real and I said well you know Mitch maybe God can't trust you with money and that's why he's not giving you with money and so that's why for me it's a little

I come cautious to this prosperous message because I'm like, well, you know, when we're faithful with little, God it can trust us as much with everything. Right? And I don't want someone to perceive it as, oh, I believe in this Jesus just to get the benefits of the kingdom. Like I want Jesus. Jesus is the prize and whatever he has in store for me. That's what I want. Everything has to be based on this book. A diligent study of this book, like in the book of Hebrews.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for The evidence of things not seen The classic amplified says The title deed to things we hope for That you can't see that has not been revealed To the physical senses Well I'll believe it when I see it That was Thomas's problem

Jesus said Thomas quit being faithless Some had great faith The Centurian Some had little faith some had no faith but the Lord just dealt with it and

so we have to deal with it I have control where my household is concerned I don't have control where yours is concerned all I can do is witness to you based here

do you think that's a common misconception about the prosperous message is they they see you preach it they see you reaping the benefits of it. And so they think, well, if I go to Brother Copeland, then my life's going to change because I go to him. Do you think that's a common misconception?

Like it seems to me what you're saying is, if you want, it appears like what you're talking about is if you want to experience this prosperous message, you have to take it for yourself. Well, if they come to me, I'm just going to show them what I know. Now, there's been times that people have come to me. and the Lord say, you do this.

There's been time people came to me, and the Lord said, you let them alone, I'm dealing with them over this. You just go to the book and show them. And so if I have the opportunity, I'm going to take it to witness. And as we were talking earlier, I baptize in the well, are a serial killer. Could God save a man like that? Well, certainly.

I won't go into all of that. But here's the thing. I have authority over my household, but I don't have authority over yours. If you come to me for help, we're going to sit down and we're going to pray, and we're going to get this book out, and we're going to discuss the problems, and see what the situation is. Now, in the Bible when it talks about how the one area to test God in is with your finances, Do you believe that that scripture is saying, when I test God with my money, I get money back? Is that what you believe that is saying?

What do you believe about that passage? Tell it to me again. You know, the Bible says that the one area we test God in is with our money. It's that over there in the book of Malacot? I believe so, yes, sir. Turn over there to it. And so when we go to, when we hear that in scripture, like, do you believe that that is saying, like, if I'm testing God with my money, right? Does that mean that as a believer, they get money?

back or does that mean that they I don't ever test God with my money I don't even know what that means I believe this is what I believe that means right I'll give you an example like I when I God called us to Los Angeles California in 22 and I'd never even stepped foot in Los Angeles California much less I know that I don't know that's the most expensive place in the country and Manhattan neither one and so I so when God called me there I'm like well well God I'm 18 I you know I can't even afford to live there don't know what that looks like. So I said, I'm going to act out in obedience, God,

I'm going to move there because you called me there. That's what Abraham did. Every time that's what Abraham did. I think one of the appeals and one of my cautions about that prosperous message, too, is I think there are a lot of people that could say, oh, well, I'm going to test God in that area, right? You know, it may not make sense in the carnal to make that decision. I'm going to do it.

There's a place in the scripture where it says that. But in testing him, you do it by faith. Now, does that mean that someone gets money back, like when they test him in that? Let's turn over here to Philippians chapter 4. The answer is right there. Now, you remember this church was a convict church. Now, here we're back at that passage, 4-11. No, let's back up before that.

This is so important. Number four. Rejoice in the Lord always, and again I say rejoice. Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. Be careful or worry, don't care. Be careful for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with Thanksgiving. Huh?

With Thanksgiving. What you say long enough will finally get down in your heart and begin to control your life. I had said over and over, I don't like exercise. I just hate it. I don't want food with it. I'm all suited up. I'm going to obey God, and I got in there and I grabbed that thing, and I said, I just hate this. No, oh God, forgive me. I love it. I got on the treadmill. He said, Kenneth, I sacrificed my body for years. Now you're sacrificing yours for mine. That's what he was after all the time.

It didn't have to do with just my body. It's to keep me going, keep me moving. Finally, Gret, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lowly,

can be true but not lovely. Whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report. If there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Those things which you have both learned and received and heard

and seen in me, do it. And the God of peace, Shalom, nothing missing, nothing broken, shall be with you. Now, Shalom is Hebrew for prosperity. Think about this. The Lord says, now I want you to sow so much into that ministry.

He asked me to do it so something is missing in my life. I go to Mark 10. He's going to replace it 10-fold, 100-fold, some 10, some 30 or 100, depends on what my faith and what my level is. Don't ever let it be said ever that God has ever put any kind of a sickness or a disease on somebody to teach them something. Book of James, don't you dare do that? that. Now if something happens and he teaches you from it, that's different way. He didn't do it.

Yeah, God doesn't cause the suffering. I think God can allow, allow things. Well, there's some things he has to. He has to allow things. Yeah, he has to. That's where the good character comes from. Yeah, where the good character comes from, produces endurance. So you pray and you don't listen and you have a quickening in your spirit ought to wait 30 minutes and you don't, you have a car wreck. Why did you let that happened to me. Did you ever have a hunch? That's your spirit trying to get hold of you. Man, I probably ought not go right now. You better listen to that. Here's what the Lord said to me. Don't ever underestimate a delay. He's always on time. But if he says, hold up here for a few seconds, you better hold up and let whatever problem get by that he already knew about. Instead,

of pushing your wife to get ready and we got to go now. The reason I'm saying that because I know some other things where this actually happened. And remember the name of Roy Hicks was the overseer of the Forest Square Church. He actually did. He started interviews. Everyone he interviewed said, yeah, if I'd have waited a little bit, that wouldn't happen. Or if I hadn't have turned in that direction, that wouldn't have happened. Now, that doesn't mean you be to late, late to work every morning. My dad said if you're on time, you're 15 minutes late. You get there before everybody. That's the reason he never had a, he always had a job during the Great Depression.

Never was without a job during the Depression. So let's continue to read here. Finally, brethren, whatsoever things now, those things which you have seen both and learned and received and heard and seen in me do, and the God of peace will be with you. Now, I want to say this to young preachers. How many of them can say that?

The integrity of any person. I don't care whether they're in the ministry or not. The integrity of the written word and the absolute integrity and understanding what a quality decision is and then write it down based on his word. And if you'll write your word down based on his word, he'll honor your word as you honor his.

A quality decision is one based on this book about which there is no more argument and from which there is no more to retreat. And I step across that line of faith and this is where we're going. Anyway, I need to get over here and we'll answer the question

that was brought up in the first place. While you're flipping, you know, I'm thinking of Matthew 6 right now when Jesus talks about, hey, you know, kind of hinting at what a little bit of Paul's writing, don't be anxious about anything. thing. Oh, yeah, the same thing. God clothes the lilies of the field and their beauty and they don't try and he feeds the birds of the air with them out trying. You know, how much more will he

provide for you? And that gives me peace as a believer with stepping out in big decisions. And first Peter chapter five. It helps when making big decisions. Cash the holy care over on him. Absolutely. And then pray a lot. Absolutely. A lot. I think my biggest, the thing that's, that's hard for me to understand or the cautious again, like with that prosperous message is, I think to people, because we're human beings and we have that human nature, the thing that's more attractive to people about this prosperity, health, and wealth message is those things rather than Jesus. And so, you know, when I think back of that time I moved to L.A., like, I didn't step out because I wanted some benefits and blessings.

I stepped out because I wanted Jesus himself. And that's because what he told you did. And I'm trusting him, right? I'm trusting that his way is better. That's it. But then why would a farmer go out in the field and produce a crop and then not take any of it because he didn't want to go against God? Let me tell you, my spiritual father, old Robert, they were itinerate preachers. I mean, they didn't have any place to live. And he said they were in a, he was pastor to church in the Indian, Oklahoma.

This was before the really healing miracle ministry started. And he wrote a book called Seed Time and Harvest. But anyway, she said, Orel, you get a house for me. I'm taking these kids. He said, you wouldn't do that. She said, you just try me. Well, in a Wednesday night's service, he had been paid his $50. And he said, I don't know what came over me.

I just said, anybody got a hat? And he said, I started it. I put our $50 in that hat. He said, I got home and she said, Oral, you didn't do that. He said, you think it is cold in January. But he said, I got a knock on the deacon's door at 3 o'clock in the morning,

and I got up and answered it. He said, it was the wealthiest farmer in the county. He said, Orel, I'm ashamed of myself that I didn't put anything in that. that offering, he said, I've been playing the stock market, and I'm about to lose my farm. But I know I'm a farmer. And to get a crop, I'm going to have to sow a seed. He said, I had this in a can, and I went home, and I dug it up. And there's four $100 bills.

Brother Roberts said, we had never seen a $100 bill. He said, I just went in there, and I just fanned that out. and said, this is our harvest on that 50. Well, that's the fourth chapter of the book of Mark. The sower sows the seed. And it never did talk anything about the sower. It always talked about the soil upon which it fell. So right here is where it is.

In that chapter of Mark and Mark chapter four, those seeds that he, because Jesus explains that parable, he wasn't necessarily talking about money. he was talking about like the gospel going forth. Sure, but how does it go for? Goes by people delivering the good news. That's right, but they can't do it for nothing. That's the reason he said some 30, some 60, some 100-fold.

But he shows why some it entered into their heart. They let it fail. The thorns choked them out. That persecution arises for the words sake. But here it is. Verse 15, you Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, I departed from Macedonia. No church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but you only.

For even in Thessalonica you sent once again to my necessity, not because I desire a gift, but I desire fruit that may abound to your account, I have all and abound. I am full, having received of Epaphrodotus the things, which were sent from you, an odor of sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, well-pleasing to God. My God shall supply all your need according to His riches and glory by Christ Jesus. Now, let's go back over here. God provides for our needs. And that's what you read here at that end of that Philippians 4, God providing for our needs.

And I think even for me, when I hear that prosperous message, and I think a lot of people that are listening to it, the attraction is they think, oh, I'm going to get the things that I want. Well, what about the 23rd Psalm? For the Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. We shouldn't want. We lack nothing with Jesus. That's right.

My wants. It depends on what I want and why. The Apostle said he gives us richly all things to enjoy. Well, I enjoy motorcycles. But I don't spend all my time messing on those things. I spend thousands of hours doing this other than messing around with an airplane or those motorcycles. But I enjoy them.

That's a genuine question I had. You know, that's something that I struggle with is understanding, like I'm pretty I'm an extreme person me personally like I'm all in on something when I love it and so welcome to the what what is what is the fine balance you know what I mean what's the balance of of not being excessive like where do you draw the line personally where do you find hey this is something I enjoy versus this is something that may be sitting on the throne of my heart let's take a pastor for instance the old thing you you keep we you keep complete humble will keep him broke.

I'd like to know where that is in the gospel. It isn't in there. You don't muzzle the oxen that treads out the corn. And you study these covenants and why they're there and what they say. I've seen this happen, I'm sad to say. You don't pay the pastor so much money it hurts the church. And you don't keep him down enough that it hurts him and his family.

So you set guidelines from this. And you don't have a deacon possess church, you have a God ordained church. And you have a board of directors, not a board of trustees. Well, you could call them that. I get what you mean when you say that. Yeah, a board of directors. And on our compensation, they are men

that have no way of receiving anything from us financially. Now, everyone else in there, they have something to say about it. But these men that are on that compensation committee, then they will meet. They take all of the finances of the ministry. They take everything in account, all of it, and have since day one. They take everything that has to do with anything in the account of the ministry. That's first, what I call the rolling stock. We didn't build out here.

Brother Roberts built a prayer tower. We built a chapel. First building on the property, 1,500 acres land. An abandoned airport, we didn't put this airport back into operation for years and years before we ever touched it. That's not where the money went. We were keeping our airplanes somewhere else, and that's fine. We get in a car and drive. But you have these men where you sit down and you discuss it.

You take the finances of the ministry. You take all of this put together. What is this part doing? is this department doing? We had a worldwide communion service one time. A man by the name Thomas Clyde McGee, and every time you use your satellite in your car, you say thank God for Tommy Boy. A born again, Holy Ghost baptized believer with a slide rule. Put that first satellite out there 24,000 miles and made it in orbit of this earth. Did you ever hear of the Blackwood Brothers Quartet? I mean, if they were doing a concert,

I mean, Christians would come from all of them to see them. His wife was a blackwood. Oh, wow. And they called them birds. And a man by the name of Halberson would get down in front of Clyde, and he'd say, birds, birds, come out, birds. Clyde you haven't got, yeah, I know what he mean, birds. And he said, Kenneth, I'd get hung up, and I'd go home.

I'd say, baby, doll, let's pray. and the Lord would give him the answer. He put the first satellite out there. So I called him. I said, Clyde, the Lord has directed us to have a worldwide communion service. And can you do that? Yeah. I said, how?

He said, I don't know, but you know Philippians four. You know the little plastic cups we do communion with today? Yeah. When every time you think you say, thank you, Brother Clive. Riggily did that for us in the Fort Worth Convention Center. We had 15,000 people in there. And they did that so that we didn't have to use glass ones. It resulted in a $6 million deficit.

I waited until the middle of the night. I got a board meeting the next day. Best meeting we've ever had. Best year we've ever had. TV, $24,000 or $6 million in debt. And I said, he said, The TV department is the one you carried. You didn't roll the care of that over on me.

Gloria, get down here now. Well, you could think, I mean you got to have what? You got the bill and then that's six million? It was in record time. And for the first time in history, we paid our TV bill with one check. And we've never been behind anymore. I'm not carrying that anymore. but we had worldwide communion.

It was just a magnificent thing. But all of it is based right here. Well, I appreciate you opening it up with me and going through. Listen to this. Now, here it all is. Let me ask you some. The fruit in the garden. Correct.

What do you think it was? Well, they say it was the knowledge of good and evil. I mean, what was the fruit? Like what actual fruit do I think it was? what people always describe it as an apple that's the basic what did they dress with leaves it was the fig tree and oh i'm telling you he upset i mean he upset everybody at the old night cold they went their way found the cold tied and uh and certain of them stood there what are you going to do with it like he said and with many garments in the way and

others cut off bows and they went and crying hosanna blessed his evil that comes in the name of the Lord. Blessed is the kingdom of our Father David. Comeeth in the name of the Lord, Hosanna. Oh, you tell him, man, listen, he really caused a lot of trouble for himself up there then. And I like to think that like this, too. They weren't worshipping the colt.

He was the carrier. I'm the colt, and he's riding my back. Seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came if happily he might find anything their own. The fig tree and the leaves are supposed to be there at the same time. Now, nothing but leaves for the time of figs was not yet. Well, the leaves were there too early. And he answered and said to it, no man eat fruit of you here after forever, and his disciples heard it. Now, he had gone into the temple the night before and came out and waited till the day to do anything. He went back to

Bethany. And he did all the, is it not written my house to be called a nation of house of prayer? You've made it a den of thieves. So now, when he cursed that fig tree, he didn't look back. He just headed Jerusalem. He didn't pay attention to him. Peter calling remember said master or rabbi. Behold the fig tree. This fig tree paid the price for that one in the garden. Praise God. Whether he did or not, I like, it looks good to me. which you cursed has withered away. I mean, this thing just was nothing. But the fig tree provided the opportunity.

Have faith in God. The reference says, have the faith of God. For barely I say unto you, this is a whosoever, shall say unto this mountain, be thou removed and be thou cast into the sea, and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he says shall come to pass, he shall have whatsoever he says, and then he did it. Therefore, I say unto you, what things so ever you desire.

When you pray, believe that you receive them, and when you stand praying forgive, if you ought against any, that your father also in heaven forgive you your trespasses. If you don't forgive, neither will your father forgive in heaven to forgive you. And that's it. We stop, pray and listen. And that's what built this ministry. This and the other verses around it. our family, John, Terry, George, Kelly.

Both sides of our family honored our father's mothers all the days of our lives. And Jeremy is pastoring a church up in Green River Falls, Colorado. When he was three years old, I wore a vest in pocketwise. He'd get me a veg, Pachiawai. I peach.

He's been preaching all of his life. This then is the, bottom line. A book of covenants. It's the Holy Bible. And this is just as much God as God, the Father,

God, the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. Do you care if I pray for us really quick? Please do. Jesus, thank you so much for today. God, thank you for allowing Brother Kenneth to spend time with me and us have a conversation about his upbringing, his life, Jesus,

and this process. prosperity message, what it looks like, navigating it, the hard conversation. Scott, thank you for this day. Thank you for breath inside of our lungs. Lord, would your face continue to shine upon us? We love you, Jesus. It's in your name we pray. Amen.