The Bugle - Bugle 4034 – Judges and prison

Episode Date: June 24, 2017

Andy is joined by Anuvab Pal to discuss mad judges, British democracy and incarceration. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Oh shit, sorry, sorry, this is the wrong outlet. This is a podcast version we're recording now, my mistake. Hello, Bugleos! And welcome to issue 4,034 of the Bugle. Audio newspaper for a world unashirmed of its own ceaseless visuality. I am Andy's ultimate and I can now officially confirm, I am not the subject of the Carly Simon song You're So Vane, I would just like to quell that rumor right away, nor have

I ever been the inspiration and muse of Pablo Picasso, so if anyone has told you otherwise, I can only apologize. I'm in London, that is so often the case that can't be coincidence. And joining me from the Madcap Metropolis of Mumbai, the home of the Carhorn Honkinka Coffordy, that is a very satisfying collection of words to say, it's the Bugles official representative of the continent of Asia, Anuvaapal. Hello Andy, hello. How is Asia as a continent? Well, you know, it's still in the same place. I'm happy to report. Regardless of what you may have heard, it hasn't moved. I know we live in a post-fact world.

You may have seen social media clips that India is now closer to China. Qatar has ceased to exist, but not these things are true. Geographically, tectonically speaking, everything is true in the same place, Andy. As always, a section of the bugle is going straight in the bin. This week, we review the latest self-help guide books for lower achievers, including the latest from Dr. Vermine Tardretti. A book entitled Find Your Plateau, which guides you down the path to acceptance of your own limitations, reviewed as, quote, gloriously uninspiring, five stars from Career Mediaocriti magazine. We also look at Brenda Clanch's snooze him of the Koala mum, a low-octane parenting handbook to save you time, effort, energy, frustration and disappointment, given that realistically, your child is probably going to be pretty ordinary anyway. So kick back and enjoy the ride. Leashing your inner self, this is a terrific day-by-day handbook by the British

Institute of the Safely Mandane, helping you avoid the heartbreak of unfulfilled life goals by learning to suppress your true ambitions. That's a follow-up, of course, to the disappointingly bestselling aim-low, don't grow. And also we look at cloud-watching through the glass ceiling, how life is simpler when you don't give a shit by former security guard and janitor Ian Blard, an autobiographical blueprint for a numbingly unremarkable life. That section is in the bin. And also in the bin this week, well we've had a heatwave here in Britain. I imagine Anivab by comparison with the basically permanent heatwave that is mumboi. You're probably not that impressed

with our 33 degree temperatures. But to get any British Googlers through the heatwave, we have some free cold thoughts to call you down. A penguin eating a packet of frozen fish fingers in a bobsled. Polar bears playing musical statues at the Cam Chattka Winter Festival of Outdoor Ambient Jazz. The soul of Theresa May. That section also in the bin.

Today's top story, Andy, and you know, every time we talk, there's always Indian news because there's never shortage of some sort of lunacy where I'm from. If you remember, we talked about a mad judge. We talked about an Indian high court judge who'd gone mad and he issued an arrest warrant on a bunch of Supreme court judges who'd issued an arrest warrant on him. He'd gone into hiding for a few months and I'm happy to report that he has been found and I just want to know what your views are on this just legally as well because when he was found and the police, the special branch of police, they're known as the C and the police, the special branch of police, they're known as the CBI in India, the central bureau investigation. You know, when they caught him,

he immediately issued an arrest warrant on them, which confused them immensely. Because they did not. They had an alternative legal warrant in their hand. And, you know, as a student of law, and jurisprudence, he had just wanted to know what this does to legal matters generally when you go to a rest of judge and he arrests you in turn. Well I mean that's you've got to admire the imagination he's he's put into that so just I mean

I don't know if it'll work if you're not a high court judge mean, can you just put on a judge's wig and wield that authority and say, no, I'm having URS, it's quite kind of playground level response, isn't it? Oh, you're arresting me? No, I'm arresting you. And then I don't know, jump off the ground and it's all your safe.

I mean, to me, it seems, this is the kind of chaos that the watching world expects from India, Justice Kahnon, who we talked about a few weeks ago, he described the contempt of courts act as, quote, a cathartic jurisprudence which belonged to the Dark Ages, the era of Inquisition and Torture distinct from the classical Roman law which constitutes the foundation of modern jurisprudence. And I mean that's, I mean that is the kind of language that you want from a high level legal executive. Precisely, and the precisely, in fact, it took them six weeks to understand what he was saying before they could arrest him, because the English language is not as prevalent in the lower orders of the security forces,

as it is among high court judges. And however, the point you raise is a very valid point because what differentiates just madness, which is a man with a wigan a gavel, just pronouncing sentences, and a mad judge who sets up his own court in his house. There is nuance here, Andy. There is nuance. An interesting angle on this is that whilst he was in hiding, he retired. He reached retirement age and he became, and I quote, an Indian newspaper here, the first

judge of a high court to retire whilst being untraceable. Now that is an unanswerposing record to have said, that is a small crossover in the Venn diagram of judges Of course, there are many judges not so many high court judges, but very few of them have ever been untraceable and also No judge who is untraceable would give that up voluntarily surely So if you are untraceable, you're not gonna retire. I mean, he's been forcibly retired because he turned 62. But, I mean, the untraceable judge, surely that is, I mean, that's the old judge's dream of, isn't it?

That's a dream, that is a dream, you know? And often, you don't have that intersection as you correctly pointed out. Harrison Ford has made a movie called fugitive. He has not made a movie called fugitive judge, right? Because I feel like that it is actually not often met and I'm proud to be from a nation where such things do meet. You know, you can be an absconder and a man who can

pronounce the death penalty all in one, you know. Yes, we've got a billion people but sometimes we know how to multitask. That's all I'm trying to get out of here. In other Indian news, now the Ayush ministry, which promotes a traditional and alternative medicine, has issued some wonderful advice to pregnant women. Telling them to avoid meat, eggs and impure thoughts. Now, you think with pregnancy eggs and meats and impure thoughts of sorts. Obviously been the start of the matter. The advice listed various things to be avoided, including tea, coffee, sugar, spices, and eggs, and non-veg food. I mean India does have a pretty proud record of malnutrition in expect and mothers I guess we need to see in the context of that, but this is in direct contravention of the advice from the Indian Health Ministry which has met an ex pretty much top of its list of

Recommended foods so I mean I guess in an in a nation of what 1.2 billion people You're you're gonna have bits of advice that contradict each other, but there must be some pretty confused pregnant women in India right now. That is correct Andy, that is correct. And also, we're the first nation to classify impure thoughts as an edible product. So I think that's one of the basic things

that I have a problem with the Western world is that you differentiate between adverbs and names of food products. This is the problem. Why can't you not eat a tomato and a whimsy? It's like that. You know, we are more flexible with the English language here, Andy. And this is why I think we're so far advanced, you know, that is, we only have to catch up

with China and that's it. Because we've got pure thoughts and meet, and I don't know how it is for you, meet an ex for me, our pure thoughts. And I have pure thoughts when I'm in them. And any other kind of food, in pure thoughts, and we be classified them together. And that's why we like to be flexible with English language.

When we say something like, when you're going to school avoid being hit by cars and bad opinions. You know we like to say things like that. The advice also said women should detach themselves from desire, anger, attachment. You have to detach yourself from attachment. I mean that's linguistically interesting at the best of times anyway. But also, surely, attachment is something you want to practice while you're preparing to have a baby. Also says you should detach yourself from hate a riddness, which is just a new word.

That has just been invented. Hate a riddness. I don't know if that means feelings of hate or being hated by something or just something completely different. It could be, who not had a rididness, maybe don't wear red hats. I mean, very dangerous to be a Pope whilst president. That is absolutely, absolutely a fact.

And attach yourself from lust, which is very much shooting the horse after the door is bolted. Now, is it possible, Anavab, and I've been to India, I think, four times? Is it possible to find peaceful condition anywhere in India? It is not, which is why I think what they're saying is leave the country, right? Find good people. They don't even have to be your family. So by default you are detached.

So what they're saying is give birth in Taiwan, give birth in Russia, anywhere but here. Find good people. I think there's a coded almost KGB type message here. If you want to bring in a new life don't do it here we've got a lot of people. Now we can't say that directly Andy you understand. So we as Indians this is why English is an Indian language. We have invented an English under your English and we call it English as well but it's not English. You see where I'm coming from.

The booklet also says it, and this is, I think, my favorite bit of it. During pregnancy, women should read the life histories of great personalities. I don't know. I know parents, you know, listen to music during pregnancy, to try and stimulate the brains of the babies within them. I know my children, I was exposing them to the greatest hits of banana armor from well shortly before conception. But reading the life history of Great Post, I think I'm going to Osmo's, the wisdom of

the ages from their mother reading these books. There must be some amazing conversations going on in India at the moment. How's your morning sickness? Well, it was awful until I started reading Henry F. Pringles 1932 Pulitzer Prize winning biography of Theodore Roosevelt and now I feel absolutely sensational. Good so you're hoping for a natural birth? Yep, no, no painkillers, no surgical equipment, nothing going going for the forces area, by which I mean, I'll be reading Suetonius' second century AD masterpiece, David Kizarum, the lives of the Caesars,

in the original Latin, I don't want to take any chances. Awesome advice. Again, Andy, great advice, great advice. And again, I don't know how you do it in the West, but when my son was born, the months before it, it was critical for my wife to read, ploughed us the misunderstood teen years. Without that, we would not speak.

And I promised not to pay for my son's education. I think it was critically state mandated that we had to read Alexander, the years making music videos. That was critical for us to have Kafka the goalkeeping years. Now those things were given to us by the state. And we had to read it and it was mandatory in my house. And we nearly came close to divorce because, you know, my wife would want to read other things and other books, and that's not allowed in those months,

it's not allowed by the state. Well, I'm starting to regret now that I have two children and during neither pregnancy did I or all my wife sit down and reads, you know, biographies of the world's leading people, and I mean, let's look at the evidence, my kids are 10 and 8 now, but between them, absolutely zero Nobel prizes. So, I mean, clearly India is onto something here. I would introduce my son to you, but right now he is playing the third opera of Mozart at four.

So he's a bit tied up as we speak, because he's in the middle of Gossi fan 2D Quarto 2. Britain news now and I'm here in London, the city where the breath of Brexit splotters forth from confusion lung. As we were called, Britain is hammering out a deal whereby under Europe and the UK will divorce the question is are we going to try and keep some kind of official friends with benefit status with Europe or is it just going to be occasional informal f**king behind the back of a bike

shed we just don't know we don't know yet today as we were called 23rd of June and we've had one year to the day since 23rd of June last year or if you're listening to this in America, June the 23rd to 2016, that was the day when Britain went to vote in a Brexit referendum and I think fundamentally the situation we found ourselves in was this. Britain was on an aeroplane. And we weren't happy on the aeroplane. We started hearing some noises from the engines. They may or may not have been problems with those engines.

And we had a vote in Britain over what to do. And we voted by 52% to 48% to jump out of that aeroplane excluding the about 30% of people who were still watching their in-flight movies and didn't take part but we voted to jump out of the aeroplane and now we are jumping out of this aeroplane Anifab whether we like it or not we've made that decision and we have to respect that decision and what we need to do as a nation now is come together and work out how the **** to make a parachute. That is the most important thing to do when you've jumped out of an airplane.

The world is looking at this and they're really little confused and they're confused for a couple of reasons, Andy. Well, the first of all, it just seems like when all they said that somehow, when the Brexit happened, it was a revenge of people of a certain age. And now, they're saying that this election is a revenge of the young. And it's seeming to us that for whatever reason, you did not allow the old and the young to vote at the same time. It seems like the old people went and then the young people went. And it's quite confusing that through this process,

it seems to the world that, yes, you all said, you wanted to leave Europe, and now people say, you want to stay in Europe, and then everybody in the past did not like this gentleman, Jeremy Corbyn, even though I think he is a fine beard, he's a fine-weight, distinguished, very medical-looking gentleman, beard, and if he did open heart surgery on me,

I would trust him, he's just worth a hit figure. And it seems like now all that's come out of this is you wanted to remain in Brexit, but one great song about Jeremy Corbyn that people seem to be singing, that your young people are singing at concerts. If there was one benefit out of this, at least a piece of artist come out of it,

would you agree and? Well, I don't know whether, it's a bit early to say whether any benefits have come out of anything in British politics over the last couple of years. It's a very interesting position now with Brexit. As you say, it did appear to be something of an intergenerational prank, the Brexit vote. And I mean, there is one suggestion that what we could do is just pretend that we're leaving the European Union for all the old people who really wanted it. And, you know, just, you know, send them little newsletters say, yeah, we're out now. And they'll be happy because, you know, politics is 99% psychological. We know that. Donald Tusk, president of the European Council, 537,000 Twitter followers,

take that to reason, mate. It's really not going well. He, uh, can't be vaguely raised the prospect of the UK staying in and to me this sounds like the ideal solution for both sides of the Brexit debate here in Britain and of that because most people who are in favour of remaining are still I think essentially philosophically in favour of remaining albeit they accept the result of the referendum and are you know through Gritted Teeth acknowledging that the will of the people, whatever the f*** that is, has to be seen through. Whereas most levers are facing up to an aching void of not being able to blame Europe for absolutely f***ing everything from all bananas now having to be spherical and orange, or that mean they might be oranges, but it's probably something to do with brustles, to British employers undercutting their own workforces, to not be able to dunk witches in ponds anymore

because of EU fishing quotas. So if you we reverse this decision, not only will the remain as we have it, I think most levers, they will have their raise on debt to a back, and we just need to be in this permanent state of campaigning to leave the EU. I think that is the equilibrium that we need in this notion and you know I think one of the fundamental problems is a is a literate electorate voting base

You know you've given too much education to your people. This is a problem and and I'd I'd like to refer to a very specific local election At a town near where I was born up in Darjeeling, which was actually a British Cantonment town for a long time. They had recent elections and a gentleman was campaigning on a mandate of infrastructure because he had built schools and hospitals and all of that and he was campaigning and nobody was interested and his rival was not a politician. He was a local footballer and he came into that same crowd of 100,000 people, balanced a ball in his head, did his signature header and won by 50,000 dollars. And I think the fundamental problem is that your people

can read and write, and that is what is getting in the way of all good decision-making. Right, I mean, that's, to be honest, still quite a long way ahead of what happened in America last November, I think. You know what I'm... LAUGHTER To reason why I said the in-name negotiation, I think. So, um... Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Theresa May has said that in the negotiations,

she would be raising important issues, including how Europe can work together to stop the spread of extremism online. I mean, I mean, if only there was some kind of super national European organization that we could be part of that would help with these things. What the f*** have we done, Britain. What the f*** have we done Britain? What the f*** have we done? Tusk said that he said, I mean he seems to be very keen on

Britain staying in. He said, who knows, you might say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one quoting John Lennon of course. I mean he's not the only one. He's got thousands of other dreamers doing all the paperwork and the admin forum. There's so much bureaucracy in Europe. Even the dreams. Even the dreams have bureaucracy behind them these days. B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B We had the Queen's speech at the start of each parliament, the Queen lays out the government's action, not our own words of course, but the most exciting thing about it this year was that the Queen's

crown got its own wheels. The crown went in a separate car to parliament. I don't know, I've not noticed this before. We have covered the charmingly and acronistic traditional nonsensicalisms of the Queen's Beach and the State opening of Parliament on this audio newspaper before. But I've not noticed the crown getting it's, I mean, we are a nation which has nurses relying on food banks for foods we have thousands of people living on the streets, children going to school, unfed, and we put a f***ing hat

in a limousine. Priorities, priorities. I mean, why for a start? Why is the Queen not wearing the hat? I mean, that is a great concern. The Queen should, I mean, there are rumors that she ripped a neck muscle in rehearsals for her annual secret performance in the cast of dirty dancing, the musical. No one puts Lizzie in the corner. And the Conservatives, they have to drop a lot of their manifesto pledges, including their promise to have a new vote on Fox hunting, on re-legalizing Fox hunting. I'm very worried about this being dropped now.

Worried about all these swarms of contraband foxes roaming the countryside, unhunted. Now the thin red line of aristocrats on horses with massive packed of dogs will not be holding them back anymore. It's deep, deep concern. Well, Andy, there is a history to this very quickly. There is a history to this. They were during the Indian summer, you know,

you did move the entire capital to a hill station. So I would imagine that the crown is part of that tradition, you know? I mean, You move chairs and people and entire courts up to a station because it was to be honest really hot. And it's not a benefit we have now because the public would shout in scream. So I think that the crown is serving its own car, its own cushion and its own journey is only fair. So we move the whole capital to what was the hill station? Well the town was called Shimler and I think one

fine day well you moved the capital a couple of times because in 1911 we've talked about this on this podcast, Calcutta was the capital and then I think that things fair enough you said you know we don't like the Bengalis anymore so we're going to move it to Delhi it's quite central and I think that the you, there were the Mughal emperors and they were there for 500 years. And it took 500 years for the British Governor General to figure out that they were right in the first place. That Delhi was quite central. So I think after ruling the country for 200 years, they looked at the map for the first time to actually figure out what it is that they actually govern and then they moved to Delhi and then they found it really hot. So they moved everybody up to a hill station. And every single piece

of furniture, person, court document, the entire bureaucracy went up there and climate is a very good reason to move governments. I mean, the great Chengist Khan, I think, would spend a lot of time eroding mostly because he just did not want to die in a Eurasian step with eight-month winters. Bugle Feature Section now and Prisons. Now, this week's episode is part of a special radio topia wide project welcoming a new show into the radio topia family. The Ear Hustle podcast features stories of life in prison told and produced by those living

it at San Quentin State Prison. And in support of Ear Hustle, all radio topia shows have been releasing an episode in response to the theme Doing Time. And here is The Bugles, Doing Time, Prison's Feature section. Now, since John Oliver left this show, we haven't had any other Bugle co-hosts who've done a 20 stretch in the slammer.

And if you have a spent a long time in jail? Well, you know, I'm just gonna answer that slightly differently. There is very little difference between an actual prison and a small Mumbai apartment. So even though it hasn't, the general living conditions of any artist in a city like this is, in fact, the architects often visit local prisons

before they build their houses. So I think that there is an aesthetic match in what we're looking at, Andy. I mean, the common complaint with prisons in Britain is, we all see it in the tabloid place, prisons are like five-star hotels, and when you think about it and look at the statistics, prisons are very much like five-star hotels in that they seem to be specifically designed to do everything in their power to make sure their guests come back for another stay. specifically designed to do everything in their power to make sure their guests come back for another stay

Because we have spectacular levels of reoffending in this country The and yet whilst the prison population has gone up the number of prison officers has come down now on the one hand You might think well that is obviously Stupid but on the other hand you might think fucking stupid. But on the other hand, you might think, uh, uh, yeah. So I guess that the logic is to try appeal to prisoners, British sense of fair play. If you cut prison officers, cut police numbers as the government had been doing, then we were alone on British criminals having that innate British sense of British fair play that politicians bang on about while shamelessly benefiting from a massively unjust electoral system and giggling themselves about how much tax-clobal corporations would have to pay if they made them pay it. And the criminals, they want a challenge. They're not going to commit

crime if there is no challenge. So this is a visionary way of sorting everything out. It's really lovely in British, you know, how you look at the world. It's very unique, you know, because just as he's about to burgle a bank or a jewelry shop, he thinks, what kind of burden am I placing on the state infrastructure by doing this? He's looking at the larger picture.

And there is a fundamental assumption that this criminal understands the ways of the world. And I think you're giving him a certain respect. You're giving him that understanding of global geopolitics, socio-economics. This is a criminal who reads the economist and understands the burden he will place on the state. I have a slightly different question, Andy, apparently from what I'm reading, Andy, from what you're telling me, that prison is somehow associated with shame and some sort of guilt in the Western world. Here, from what I've noticed, from the people that have gone to prison for high corruption cases, it is actually a status symbol. If you are anyone, who's anyone, in the power circles in India, in politics politics or business if you have not been to prison

You are probably not a contender And if you have not been arrested for anything below say a hundred million dollar corruption scam We we've like to call them scams you are no one you are not a player you are nobody in fact That's the shame if you live at home's shameful, because you haven't achieved anything. If you've got to prison, that's an achievement. And there's a gentleman that you and I have talked about, Andy, the one of the great Indian businessmen, who found himself in prison because of a Ponzi scheme.

So this is a subrata Roy who has a master fortune of over what 50 billion I don't know if it's that dollars or Rupees let's go with both and those hotels around around the world and essentially He has set up a full office inside

the jail he is currently residing in to sell his hotels. So basically, from inside a maximum security prison running a property empire, this is sensational. This is absolutely correct Andy. In fact, there was a Reuters story with said the court has given him 15 days to sell his five star hotels from jail. And I think that he got bail. I think now he's out on bail, but when this was going on a few months ago, he actually had the goal to complain to the judges saying that his video conference in facility was not strong enough and that his calls with his investment bankers

on Wall Street were dropping, which is why he could not sell the plaza hotel in New York. And without that money being returned to investors, he would not get out of jail. His other properties were in Grofsner Square, which I believe in, in your city. So if you are ever passing that area, I've been told it's a very posh area of London, Mayfair. Please note that the negotiation for that real estate is currently taking place in a prison, in India,

inside a maximum security prison. Discussions of its refurbishment, management, curtain clendiness is going on inside a gym. Well I guess it's good to have that airwrestling, you've got to make prisoners work, so they can, you know, get ready for life back on the outside and surely running a massive hotel empire. It's better than sewing up mail bags or making spoons. Howard League for penal reform in this country. It's a great organization that is trying to make

our penal system in layman's terms grow the f*** up. And the director of campaigns at that Howard League said that reducing resources while allowing the prison population to grow unchecked has created a toxic cocktail of violence, death and human misery. Now, violence, death and human misery. Now, violence, death and human misery, that is not a cocktail you want to drink on a night out,

or specifically the kind of cocktail you want to drink on several hundred consecutive non-voluntary nights in. In fact, I have that cocktail right here, the Penal Collada. Oh my God, that needs a significant squeeze of lemon and a seriously distracting parasol. Oh what the heck. Give me another one, is the only laugh I know. I tell you what we need though, Anavab, to solve the global problem with prisons.

And that is space prisons. That's surely, I mean, I know it's been suggested in certain science fiction shows and books, but good luck, sure, shanking your way out of one of those Tim Robbins. They've already been some trial schemes. Neil Armstrong, not actually national, he was a petty criminal.

Stola Granny from a nursing home was a Christmas gift for his wife. Buzz Aldrin, Graffitied eyeshadow and lipstick onto the George Washington on Mount Rushmore, and Michael Collins obviously, well, legally, different ways of looking at his actions in the struggle for Irish independence. But anyway, they all got a 10 stretch on moon central penitentiary, but broke out, busted out after less than a day, and Collins obviously in the getaway vehicle zoomed them back to Earth. Busted out after less than a day and Collins obviously in the getaway vehicle zoomed them back to earth

More recently Tim Peake the British astronaut was sent up for a six-month stretch on the HMP International Space Station Can't remember what he got slammed for I think being scientific in charge of a rocket or something and since he got back He has not gone on a single Bonnie and Clyde style crime spree clean as as a whistle. Got his life back on track. Point proof. Bony and Clyde style crime spree. Your emails now, this came in from Jamie Thompson, who says, dear Andy, I hope you're well.

I'm fine. Thanks for that detail. I'd like you to know that I went up to the hideaway and stressed him to buy some tickets for your fundraising thing. That thing, let me flesh out the details, is a fundraising gig. This coming Tuesday, the 27th featuring me, Jeremy Hardy, Sophie Hagen and Johnny in the Baptists. Jamie continues, the lady in the box office said, oh, you mean the event

with Mark Zuckerberg? I smiled and said, yes. Well, that's great. I'm now, I'm being mistaken for the founder of Facebook and one of the most successful entrepreneurs in the world. I don't know if that I've just been flattered or insulted. I mean I have never overlooked the spread of hate speech on an internet platform that I may have had control of. I'm not saying Mark Zuckerberg has. I'm just saying I haven't. But other than beginning with Z, I'm not sure there are many similarities between Zuckerberg and I in a way we have conducted our commercial careers. But anyway, do come to that gig.

It should be terrific on Tuesday night to raise money for my children's primary schools, specifically to help disadvantaged children from the school go on the school camp That is Tuesday night at the wonderful Hidoi club in Stratton We've overrun as as ever But a quick word on the cricket anuvab India lost the final of the champion's trophy

to Pakistan, after which 15 people were arrested for celebrating in India, for celebrating Pakistan's victory on charges of sedition. Sedition charges. Now, sedition is conduct or speech inciting people to rebel against the authority of a state or monarch. I mean, that shows how seriously cricket is taken in India that celebrating another team winning is seen to undermine the entire existence of India as a nation.

Well, you know, that plays right into our concept of fair play, you know, that you can fairly support any side as long as you're willing to go to jail afterwards. You know, that that's sort of the worldview that we work on. I don't know how it is in the West. I don't know I don't know what sportsmanship means in the West, but to us it means as long as you're supporting us, you're a few have a sportsman spirit. That's basically what that means. I have a slightly different problem and we were sort of really convinced that we would win, because statistics, which I know that you're very famous

for in cricket, said that we were the number one side in this format of the game in Pakistan were 40th out of 8 playing nations. And so therefore, we bought a lot of firecrackers. As a nation, we bought a lot of firecrackers, because we were certain by 8 that evening we'd be winning. And then when we didn't and we had this lot of firecrackers because we were certain by 8 that evening we'd be winning and then when we didn't and we had this sort of you know massive you know Hellenic tragedy you know on our hands a bunch of firecrackers just went off in some sort of existential crisis

well I mean like because this was a nation uncertain of what to do with firecrackers This was a nation uncertain of what to do with firecrackers. So it's the first time where there were firecrackers out of bewildernment than celebration. Does a firecracker sound different when it is set off bewildered rather than happy? There's a tinge of sadness, Andy. There's a tinge of sadness. Well, as you said, this was a hugely unexpected victory, particularly because early in the tournament, Pakistan who've come in as, you know, basically either the rubbishist or the second rubbishist team in the tournament.

And they got absolutely thrashed by India in their first game. They looked likely tournament winners at that point, in the same way that a baguette looks like a suitable vehicle for riding the Grand National. But Pakistan cricket is one of the most gloriously baffling sporting phenomena in the universe. They did not just turn their Titanic round on a six-pence. They vaulted their Titanic clean over the

iceberg in a triple twisting double pike back to some assault into the open ocean to victory. It was utterly sensational the way they thrashed India and England in the semi-fun, but it's not talk about that. They totally obliterated India and England. That's not going on about England. They really, really hammered India. And there was a run out in the final. And when India were already losing, and there was a spectacular run out, which ended up with both batsmen at the same end,

which for non-cricut officials, it was listening to the vehicle, is a bad thing. A very bad thing. He was 20 yards away from being where he was supposed to be. And I can't understand how an Indian batsman can ever be run out in cricket anuvab because the way I see it, if you've survived to adulthood crossing roads in India, you should never be run out in cricket. You should know how to get from a place to another place about 20 yards in a short space of time, without anything going wrong. How can an Indian cricketer be run out

if they have made it to the age of 20? I think what happened by that point, Andy, is that we were already five down, right? And the players themselves so well paid, the wealthiest cricketing, playing nationals, they were so confused at their own loss. And perhaps a little scared that they were not running towards the other wicked, Andy, they were so confused at their own loss and perhaps a little scared that they were not running towards the other wicket, Andy.

They were running away from the stadium and like all our billionaires who seek refuge in London, they were hoping never to come out. They were hoping to run into the city of London, never to be found, like so many other great Indian fugitives. Well, that brings us to the end of this week's Buegel next week will have full exclusive coverage of the first rugby union test match between the New Zealand

all blacks and the British and Irish Lions. I mean, it's going to be tough, Anivab. I imagine you're not a massive rugby fan, but New Zealand have won 37 matches in a row in the stadium that the Lions are playing them in tomorrow morning, as we were a core. This, as a task go to try and beat New Zealand in New Zealand as like Pogo sticking your way to the top of Mount Everest.

Not impossible, but very tricky indeed. We'll have full reports exclusively on that next week. Anywab, thanks very much once again for joining me from Mumbai Delight as ever to have you on the show. I'll be back next week with Tom Ballard and a new Bugle co-host, Tiffany Stevenson. The Bugle is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, made possible with great support from our Founding Sponsors, the Night Foundation. Until next time, Bugleers, goodbye. you