The Bulwark Podcast - A.B. Stoddard: Focus Only on Winning

Episode Date: July 25, 2024

Nancy Pelosi has amassed power through persuasion, and she had the nerve to push a sitting president off the ticket because she prioritized victory. Meanwhile, Kamala's veep pick is key to extending the new generation message—and wouldn't choosing Josh Shapiro be a good way to show she's not on the side of the flag-burning Hamasniks? Plus, mixed emotions for Joe Biden, and jealous Trump is back to being a total d**k. A.B. Stoddard joins Tim Miller. show notes: A.B.'s piece on Pelosi 

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I've learned and taken from the last month and about the ethos of this podcast. And if that doesn't interest you, that's all right. You can just fast forward five minutes. I just want to talk a little bit about what it is that we do here, to borrow a phrase from my favorite Bob in the office. We had a little recrimination hour over on the next level this week, and it felt good to howl at the moon a bit, but I thought it would be a little bit more productive to talk about like what we're actually going for, what our objective is. And this podcast, in my view, is a bunch of things. It's a never Trump political opinion show, where me and the guests give our honest perspective on the news.

We aren't doing both sides-ism. We aren't doing straight news journalism. We're trying to inform, but we're also trying to provide a point of view, which is often, but not always, kind of centrist, avowedly never-Trump, to a degree that borders on unhealthy. For some listeners, this is also a community, which is awesome. A bunch of folks have found their people here. They might disagree on some issues, but they unite in being not the crazy ones. I want to foster that. I love that. But here's what we're not. And there's kind of a fine line between a community and a team. We're not part of a team.

I don't play for Team DNC. And frankly, I think it's a little silly that some people have decided that podcasters should be on a team. Here's the reality. Listening to a show or sending a tweet is not really political activism. There are tons of ways to be politically active. I'm on the board of Republican Voters Against Trump. That group does activism. You should check them out.

You can also donate. You can knock on doors. You can volunteer. I encourage you to do that. I think that you should get out there and meet people in your community. Go to a swing state to knock on doors. Write postcards. We have a lot of postcard writers who listen to this podcast. That is activism. And if you're looking for a fulfilling way to bring change, I'd encourage you to do that. And I think in later episodes, I'm going to be bringing on some people who work for organizations that I really like and support. If you want to get out there and get involved. What the podcast is, though, is different. Sure, we have some kind of political influence.

I'm not saying it doesn't matter. DC folks listen to our takes. Some of you send them to your undecided friends, which is awesome. That's great. Do it more. But our value proposition in that case comes from not being a party mouthpiece. Like the bulwark is unique and it works because most of us are political outcasts. We're not angling for another job.

So that means we can give you absolutely no bullshit. I say the same stuff to you that I say on text with my buddies. I give the same opinion to you that I say on text with my buddies. I give the same opinion to you that I give to campaign folks who call and ask for advice. I praise our trash candidates based on whether I think they deserve it without any curve on what I'm hoping for. And when there's a debate to be had about my opinion about something, when I'm not sure, when there are people that have passionate views that are opposite of mine, I gladly have guests on who disagree with me so we can hash that out.

That's what I love about this pod. I used to do PR. I left it for a reason. It was horrible for my soul. It corrupted me. And, you know, as Kamala might say, I'm not going back. So if you want to find a political PR show, one that will tell you every candidate you like is great and every candidate on the other side is evil, there's like no shortage of those out there. I can recommend some if you want to find a political PR show, one that will tell you every candidate you like is great and every candidate on the other side is evil, there's like no shortage of those out there.

I can recommend some if you want. But in my opinion, I find that corrupting. And I don't actually think it even helps the people on our side if all we do is pump sunshine about how great everything is. That mindset leads to some bad places. It leads to things like, yeah, maybe we should drive headfirst into autocracy with a clearly deteriorating 81-year-old candidate because we can't admit weaknesses. And if you go really, really far down the dark propaganda rabbit hole, it leads to things like,

yeah, maybe we should storm the Capitol because we can't possibly believe that our guy lost. I'm obviously not saying the moral judgment in those cases is in the same universe. But my point is that people come to very bad conclusions when they refuse to allow uncomfortable information in. I'm not interested in that. It was a little dispiriting to learn. That's what some people that listen to this show wanted.

But at the same time, it's been super uplifting because we found a bunch of new folks and a bunch of old folks who were tired of being told not to believe their lying eyes, found a place that was providing some real talk and are getting value out of it. So in the end, here's what I promise you. Here's what this podcast is. Number one, I'm telling you what I really think.

Number two, if I fuck something up or if I end up being wrong, I will admit it. Number three, I will bring people on to challenge my views, particularly if a bunch of you email me and say, hey, Tim, I think you're missing this one. I'll bring somebody on with the opposite position and we'll hash it out. And number four, I will always loathe Donald Trump and everyone that's enabled him. That's it. We're going to do it with passion and with laughs. And I'm going to try to improve myself in this show every day.

I hope you're on board with it. Up next, my friend, the great A.B. Stoddard. Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host Tim Miller and my guest today, well actually let's just take a listen to my guest from early 2023. I just still in my absolute gut believe that Joe Biden is not going to run and I'm like the only one in town and I wrote this once for the Bullard, twice for Real Clear between July and November. I've written this three times and no Democrat will talk to me as a result because I'm the big bummer. There she is, the big bummer herself, Amy Stoddard. Welcome back to the Bulwark Podcast. It's great to be with you, Tim. I actually did believe that Biden was going to step aside.

So I was wrong about that. I always believed that he knew that he had to, but in honor of him today, I, yeah, it was, it's too humid to fight with a blow dryer. So I didn't give you guys a hairdo today, but I think you're looking to honor the valedictorian. I have my Pennsylvania for Biden from 2020 shirt that my husband earned as a

volunteer on election day, 2020. And I am full of conflicted feelings about this whole thing. I am a Joe Biden fan. Yeah, let's ask those out. But let's, let's just really quick read one more A.B. Stoddard, just in case people are, you know, people are like, man, A.B.'s so negative. She's so down. Just next time you have that feeling, something to think about. Here's A.B. July of 2022. President Joe Biden cannot run for a second term in 2024. While he may not know this yet, he will soon. And the sooner the president reckons with this and admits it,

the better off his party and the country will be. According to four people who regularly talk to Biden, all of whom asked for anonymity to discuss internal campaign matters, it is virtually inconceivable that he will run for re for reelection in 2024 when he'd be the first octogenarian president. That was A.B. Stoddard again, July 2022. So this, I mean, the writing was here. It was on the wall. And I just think that that's important context when thinking about what we've been through the past month, you know, that it wasn't really the 90 minutes in Atlanta. Yeah. And I think that what's so interesting, we've talked about this, you have, I have about the Republicans narrative that this is a coup

and that the elites, you know, I mean, the voters are the ones who told us two years ago that they found his age disqualifying. And that was before he melted down on television. And I thought it was unfair, but they did not like the way he walked or talked. And they had decided it was over. And that's a message to anyone, you know, trying to keep up a career where they hope it ends up in politics, where they hope they end up in the White House that I think, we don't know if Trump makes it, you know, past the finish line. But Biden was too old two years ago for this electorate. And I think that the response to Kamala Harris from young people, and anyway, the polling we saw in 22, 23, and 24 was all consistent. And again, I really believe that Joe Biden knew that

he had a shelf life and that he shouldn't dare to do that, that he was our oldest ever president and that the polling was telling him, you know, the truth. And the fact that the team ignored it is they took an enormous risk. Yeah, it is worth noting that now Donald Trump is the oldest presidential candidate in history and that he will be older than Joe Biden is today if he is to win again. So I think that's going to be an important contrast for voters. I want your thoughts on last night. I'm putting my cards at the table. I'm a little angry still at the president. My husband told me to chill out. Many of the readers, there's an

entire Reddit thread that's angry at me for being angry at him. So that's where I'm at. You said you had conflicted feelings. What'd you think about last night? Where are you at? Beautifully written, a hot mess delivery. He looked terrible. If he was trying to hang on after COVID to his candidacy, I can't imagine what it would feel like to watch him speak. I appreciated that he admitted that he was holding on from personal ambition, and that he believed his leadership in the world and his record merited another term. That's really what he was holding on to, right? He was holding on to the past. And he wasn't campaigning for the future the way that elections are supposed to be, you know, positioning the electorate to the future. I that elections are supposed to be, you know, positioning the

electorate to the future. I teared up. He said, I hope you know how grateful I am. I have covered Joe Biden and been a fan of Joe Biden for a long time. I liked Joe Biden when he was like an irascible, like blowhard, and he was full of vigor. And I liked the humble and increasingly sort of vulnerable older man, who I think was a great president. I did not want him to run. And you know, for the last two years, I didn't want him to run. I think that Joe Biden's life has been defined by two things, Tim, fighting to be taken seriously and fighting to get over heartache. Yeah. And that has been the two consistent themes. And he just has my respect. I mean, I just find him a fascinating human being. And I've always had a lot of empathy for him. And I'm attracted to his grit and his kindness. And he made mistakes because humans do and he wouldn't step down after that debate and that

was foolish. And what's interesting about this argument about, you know, Nancy Pelosi stepping in and how is it going to go and everything is that I do believe that that family and Joe Biden would have eventually gotten to this place, but it could have gone on for three more weeks, which would have been devastating. Well, before I get to the complaint, I will say this. I also respect Joe Biden. I've been moved by many of his eulogies. He's one of our great eulogists in American life. I was never a fan of his, though, use that word. Like, to me, Joe Biden was the tool to defeat Donald Trump. I think that some folks that are mad at me for being mad at him are misunderstanding like the core of my anger, which is my whole reason for existing. The whole reason you're listening

to me right now is because I fucking hate Donald Trump so much. And I want to beat Donald Trump so badly. And I might have made mistakes in my career before Donald Trump showed up. But from the moment he came down that escalator, I've been maniacally focused on stopping him. And Joe Biden, like his mistake, the hubris in this case of thinking that he could go on, nearly reelected Donald Trump. And he would have been singularly responsible, I guess maybe him and Jill for it. And had his team not fucked up, it wasn't like he was coming to this term by himself. Has his team not screwed up and scheduled that debate? We would be walking headlong into like this podcast would be me and the princess of darkness,

the bummer, AB, talking about how we're planning for 2025 and whether we're moving to Uruguay or what the resistance is going to look like. Had his team not made that mistake, he wasn't coming to this on his own. And so I just, I'm sorry, but as somebody for whom the defeat of Trump is the goal, not the support of any particular Democratic candidate, I'm still mad at him. I'm mad at him. Maybe I'll get over it in a couple months, but like, I just, right now, I'm not there on the valedictory. I'm happy that you gave him a valedictory, and I do think he's a good person, and the heartache, my heart aches for him. But that's where all this emanates from, for me. Every single word you said is true. And it was incredibly reckless. It was vanity and hubris

at that point. I mean, you don't have that to beat. And then sit around with your wife and son and say, I must go on. That is by definition, hubris and vanity and risking the american experiment is absolutely reckless and i feel that anger it's just that if you've ever hung out with joe biden you would love him too and i've hung out with it i've spent a lot of time with him is why lindsey graham you know everyone can look up the video of him bawling trying to get through you know that was my friend scott conroy did that interview oh really his description of how like if you don't love joe biden like you're like not a human being. I mean, so anyway, and I'm mad at Hunter. And I don't think Hunter is a great person. And then I found myself on

Sunday reading Hunter's statement in the morning. I see a Tim Miller tweet saying serenity now. That was the nadir. Sunday morning, we had Hunter coming into his agency and his expression and his power. And his father was so happy that finally Hunter had become like some political guru or something. And the father and the son and the bonding and the- We're not going back, A.B. We're not going back. I don't, you're triggering me. We're not going back. We're going forward.

I was, literally the bumper sticker of this year was like not day drinking yet. Like Sunday morning was so bad for me. And then I still found myself crying when I read Hunter's statement on Sunday afternoon because it described the guy who calls anybody when they're in pain. And that's just a special person. He, you know, it's like our love for John McCain, Tim. He wasn't perfect. True.

And this was a very dangerous end though though, to this arc in Biden's story. Very, very dangerous. Thank you, Amy. I'm glad we I almost didn't do this because it was like, I don't know, do we need to revisit this? We're not going back. But I'm glad I did because I think you gave me some important perspective there. Let's talk about the Speaker Emeritus role in all this. You have a piece out about Nancy Pelosi. Man, this is a legacy enhancer for Nancy. I mean, that's an understatement. I mean, I think it's the biggest chapter of her career. And what's so fascinating, the irony of 2024, there are thousands of crazy moments, but her memoir that she wrote is coming out on August 6th, less than two weeks from now.

So this won't be in it, The Art of Power. And she has the magic touch for so many reasons that I describe, and I won't go into it, but basically she's amassed power through persuasion and she's able to use it because she uses it, you know, in a deft way. She does not rule with an iron fist. She knows when to deploy it. When she does, people follow her. You remember John Boehner saying, if you're a leader with no followers, you're just a man taking a walk. The reason that Nancy Pelosi succeeds in the moments when she makes people jump off cliffs is because they trust her. And she's kept them at the table and they've always felt heard.

And she had this feeling, a relationship with Joe Biden, a past with Joe Biden, but she had this touch where she knew that she had to go gently with him or he wouldn't take the phone call in these three weeks. And he did, praise the Lord. And she was the one who kept pushing new polling and new data while he was,

you know, grieving and grumbling and groaning over his anger towards Barack Obama, right? So there was the bunker got thicker and smaller. And he was shutting people out. And, you know, all praise be to Nancy Pelosi, who managed to keep a line in there and also just do this like public private pressure campaign, you know, in this really savvy and shrewd way. I mean, we have her to thank again. I think he would have gotten there because he would have been publicly humiliated more, but we would have lost precious time. God bless Nancy. How about the gap between her and Mitch McConnell? I think that's worth sitting on. Because all of our my former Republican friends, and you know, your friends in the conservative writing world, there's always this aura around McConnell. Oh, he's a killer.

He's so savvy. He's looking three moves down the chessboard while you're not. And you know, you pointed out that McConnell for all as savvy as he is, let a C-rate real estate man and reality TV host end his political career, while Nancy is essentially the inverse. She had the nerve to push a president of her own party off a ticket. She did that because she does not care what will happen to her next. She thought it was right, but she had the tools to do it. And she knew how to do it, when to do it. And she focuses only on winning.

Now for years, I too, like your friends on the right, like really thought McConnell was a badass. And they have a lot in common. They don't care what people write about them. They don't care what people say about them. They don't use lofty rhetoric. They just can get it done. And they do it mostly behind closed doors. And they do it by being really effective at like the care and feeding of their members,

something McCarthy thought he was really good at, but he doesn't, he didn't really, in the end, he wasn't really great at it. He was good at sort of raising money for them and jumping around and taking their texts, but he didn't have the cohesion that McConnell and Pelosi do. So in a lot of ways, their careers, their leadership has like sort of mirrored each other until February 13th of 2021. And that was the epic fail of Mitch McConnell that we're still dealing with. Thank you, Cocaine Mitch. Speaking about angry. Yeah, and again, another, and also a contrast between Biden and Mitch as annoyed as I am at Joe Biden at the moment. Like, fuck Mitch McConnell. Yeah.

I mean, you know, there will be no mixed feelings or no eulogizing for Mitch McConnell for me because at the end of his career, because he could have stopped this. He could have stopped this. One more line. I just love this from you. It was trademark Pelosi, cheerful and blunt, but also layered, championing a woman's rise,

but prioritizing victory above all else. So, Nancy. I've, I mean, I've covered the hill forever and I've, and I, and I've watched her so closely because she's a source of fascination for me. She had five children and then went on to this historic career. She's one of the most powerful people in, you know, in US political history. And she does this, she's always peppy, and always up. She always has the optimistic message. She never despairs in public. And she doesn't really in

private. And she's blunt. Often, she'll just, you know, she'll, she'll say the thing that no one else will say, and she's all business. But her endorsement of Kamala Harris was so interesting. She said she endorses her with boundless optimism and enthusiasm or something. And then she was like, my endorsement of her is official, personal, and political, which is really not subtle. She thinks of herself as like like a tramp it's like god the son and the holy ghost the father son and holy ghost but it's also like a reminder this is politics like not just it's official now i waited 24 hours but personally i also know kamala it's like uh and it's political it's also political i do love that it's just

vintage just one more shout out to nancy while we're doing odes you know catholic went to trinity not an ivy leaguer you know and was the earliest advocate for gays and for dealing with the aids crisis of anybody even when that was not cool among among democrats obviously she's from san francisco so i had a personal tie there but still shouts there were definitely san francisco pals that were on the other side of that let's talk about kamala i want to really focus on we've been very bullish on kamala here so far because it's been a good four days but i want to talk about one of the things that i you know have some worries about but i guess before we do that we haven't heard from you about it ab what how bullish are you on Kamala here, first four days in?

If anyone has listened to me this week with JVL and Mona and Bill, I am up in the K-Hive and I'm not coming down, okay? I'm high on coconut power. We're coconut-telled. Yeah, and it just feels so good to feel good. But at the same time, I will say I had no faith that she could get the bounce that she got. You know, we have to be sober about this. I'm still nervous. Emerson has a new poll today. She's tied with Trump in Wisconsin, but down on every other swing state. She has work to do. We don't know if she can win, but we have a chance. And the response from young people and non-white voters was staggering to me. I did not expect it. And I am so relieved and excited that she has gotten that response from volunteer signups and dollars and new voter registration. I agree.

She's exceeded my expectations. I do think the georgia numbers are interesting uh already seeing a little closing there and so that's good and she's still down but we talk about this a little bit on on the next level where it's like you know she could definitely still lose i mean you know but the difference between the path we were on is that there were states like georgia was off the map for jo Biden, like not on the map. I mean, they probably wouldn't have even advertised there. And that was how bad it was looking. And so, you know, there is a substantive change now in how and how the map looks to kind of

reopen it, give more possibilities, more lanes in Georgia, North Carolina, and Arizona kind of stand out as opportunities there. Here's the negative, though, in those states. I want to play a little bit of an ad from Dave McCormick, Davos Dave McCormick, one of the most detestable people running for Senate this year. And it was so potent that they borrowed it for Trump's speech in Charlotte. They played it before he came on stage during the pre-show. So I think that tells you a little something about where these guys are going. Let's listen. Nonpartisan GovTrack has rated you as the most liberal senator. I am prepared to get rid of the filibuster to pass a green new deal. There's no question I'm in favor of banning fracking. Would you ban offshore drilling? Yes. What is the solution for voters in the fossil fuel industry?

Giving the workers an ability to transition. We're not going to treat people who are undocumented across the border as criminals. That's correct. Raise your hand if you think it should be a civil offense rather than a crime across the border without documentation. Abolish ICE. Is that a position you agree with? We need to probably think about starting from scratch. Outdated, it is wrong-headed thinking to think that the only way you're going to get communities to be safe is to put more police officers on the street. Would you support changing the dietary guidelines? Yes! You know, the food pyramid, what would people like? Yes!

To reduce red meat specifically? Yes! People who are convicted, in prison, like the Boston Marathon bomber, on death row, people who are convicted of sexual assault, they should be able to vote? I think we should have that conversation. We have to have a buyback program, and I support a mandatory buyback program. So for people out there who like their insurance, they don't get to keep it. Let's eliminate all of that. Let's move on. I am opposed to any policy that would deny any human being public health, period.

So, initial reactions. Yeah, so I was very impressed with this ad. I remember covering that campaign and I did not think that she, I know she had a good, some good crowds, but she was a bad candidate. I watched her closely not do the work on healthcare, which at the time was the most important issue in the Democratic Party. And she was on like four positions on Medicare for all, let's get rid of all. And she flipped, she flopped, she didn't know what she was doing. And it was unserious. It was as if someone had told her, you should just run for president because you're fabulous. But she had not done the work. I mean, it was, it was really obvious. Anyway, so I think Bill and I talked about this yesterday,

I think she has to do some kind of 60 minutes, one time where she takes all the hits. And on some things, she should say, I've literally changed my mind. I mean, literally, I think she needs to take a pass on fracking, and say I've evolved, eat it. And then on other things, maybe she wants to massage them. Now that I've been vice president, etc, whatever, but she's gonna have to address them. I think dod trying to dodge this is, is a mistake. Because like you said, it will now be that everyone, you know, is talking on in the Republican Party about how this is the template ad, you know, every candidate can use it. And that's why they used it at the Trump rally. So it's important that she addressed those things. Looking at the electorate, however, what Harris is going to be able to do is create new vote that Biden and Trump couldn't get. If

you're with Trump, and you want to be be with Trump and you're obsessed about the border, you're not going to be convinced you're going to vote for Trump, even if you're not in the cult, if that's your thing, that you just think about the border all the time. If you were the person who said, I really don't want to vote for Donald Trump, but I can't vote for someone who looks like his staff is running the country, then you are going to listen to Kamala Harris and you are going to consider voting for her. There's just different pockets of the electorate, right? When I talk about new vote, you think the young people that are sharing coconut memes and just signed up to vote on Monday to support Kamala Harris are going to care about

anything in that ad? They don't even know what fracking is. So while that bothers me for Pennsylvania and it concerns me, there is a pocket of voters I still want her to get. If she creates enough new vote among African-Americans who are going to stand by, who are energized by our candidacy and young voters who are like, wow, she looks like the future to me. You know, finally someone's in charge. I don't want Trump or Biden. It's a different math. So I'm not yet, I don't know where those numbers are going to go, right? And you talked about this with Ron Brownstein. We were persuading people to vote for Joe Biden.

She has to do some persuasion, but she's also going to be able to do mobilization. That's where we have to hang our hope. I agree with all that. The California liberal thing, I think is going to be the most potent argument against her. The other area of hope I have is that in unpaid media, the Republicans are going to be unable to help themselves from doing all the racist and sexist attacks. And there's literally a guy on Fox that called her the original hawk to a girl this week which is about as yucky as it gets and so um that might overshadow the california liberal hit in in kind of the conversation and the narrative on social on podcasts on right like i think that these hits would be very damning for her in a Georgia Senate race when all of the information you're getting about the race is from ads.

You know, in a presidential race, like ads are kind of a supplement to what is happening because everybody's talking about the race. It's on sports podcasts and fashion, you still, is I keep hearing, I think it was Caputo that said this to me, that Fabrizio, the Trump pollster, said, well, the easiest path to victory is Georgia and Pennsylvania. That just hangs over my head. And I just keep thinking about that. And I look at that ad and I'm like, you know, there are a significant number of gettable Romney voters in both of those states. Some of them are gettable because they're got already, you know, because they've already, they're us, right? Some of them are not there.

They're Wall Street Journal viewers. Maybe they still watch Brett Baier's show. You know, they're not, they don't like Trump. But, you know, maybe they got there for Biden in 2020. They were backsliding they live in the philly suburbs they live in the atlanta suburbs it's let's just be honest it's mostly white college educated dudes their wives are voting for kamala yep can those people be brought over for her and um all of a sudden the republican voters against trump project is very important

again it was a little less important joe b Biden's main issues were with the younger voters and the Democratic coalition. And I think that that can be a potent ad in that world. And I think to your point, I think that she's going to have to change her view on some things and have to pretty aggressively rebut a couple of those things. Not be so defensive, not whatever, not obsess over it, but kind of reposition herself as, you know, she's been vice president for four years, the Biden administration, and she's, you know, kind of evolved some views, I think that she's going to have to do that. I do think that more than 30% of the electorate of Georgia is black

vote. Yeah. So I just do think that, like you just pointed out, Biden was all the way behind. She's already almost caught up there. And I think the Democrats have to try to go at Trump's criticisms of her as this radical liberal on prosecution and crime, particularly because he's trying to have it both ways. He's both saying that she didn't want the death penalty for vicious murderers or something and trying to also target African American men and say that she was, you know, trying to imprison them for marijuana. Or truancy. I saw some videos going out there about how she was tough on truancy. And I was like, please run those ads. Can we can you guys just run an ad of attacking her for being too tough on truancy in Wisconsin? That might be a winner, I think.

I think Democrats have to go at that. Maybe not her, but, you know, whatever. Online, surrogates. The wonderful thing that I, like, didn't even realize was that people were crawling out of the woodwork, like electeds you've never heard of, to go on TV and promote her candidacy because they were afraid they were going to get asked about Joe Biden's age. Like senators, like people that you, I mean, you've never seen before on TV. There are other messengers who can carry other messages about things like that. And then you can always target online different, you know, voting sectors. So I think that you have to be savvy about it. But I do think

a big interview where she takes the questions about her 2019 positions and sort of softens or massages and then moves on from some of them is probably in order. Let's move on to some Veep talk. You know, it's funny. There's this fascinating phenomenon about identity that I've been noticing during this Veep talk where, you know, black woman and sarah's focus groups and uh one of my aunts um this black woman had texted worried about kamala you know because i like worried that i don't know how she's gonna be received i've been pumping josh shapiro and uh producer katie and some other people who are jewish been like are we sure right now people are kind of mad about jews other people are pumping pete and like i was saying i was coming

around to pete last night my husband's like are we sure the people are ready for a gay? So it's like something about when you live the identity, you see the microaggressions and or sometimes macroaggressions more clearly, maybe, or maybe you're just more sensitive to them. I don't know. What's your kind of take on all that? Does she just need a good Christian white? Or do you think that's not white man? Or is that not as important as people are making it out to be? I think it's important. As a woman, I just laugh when JVL and Bill say, what about a woman, woman ticket, girl power, Whitmer?

There's no universe in which that would be possible in 2024. You want to take that video of Bill Kristol and give it back to 1994 Bill Kristol and be like, here's your future. I know, I know. That is, that's really wonderful, actually. So Will Selber, our colleague, who contributes now, but was our military fellow, and I were texting yesterday, and he was saying, Tammy Duckworth, we just can't do another woman. It just is not. So I hear you and I feel you. And it makes me actually really sad to think that black voters who are socially conservative, but Democrat would not support Pete Buttigieg because he is gay. It makes me sad that there's

enough anti-Semitism that Trump and the right can stoke that that could be a threat to Josh Shapiro helping her win. I want Josh Shapiro because I think it makes the most sense of anybody else. I love people to judge. I will never not love people to judge, but I want Pennsylvania. So, you know, my head goes to Shapiro. Let's take these one at a time then. So Shapiro, I think the Shapiro thing cuts both ways. So you had the BB speech yesterday in Congress, which included some lies, I would have to say, quite a few lies. I'm not here to fact check everything in the BB speech since I haven't been to Gaza, but definitely some lying was happening in Congress yesterday. But then outside the speech, you had, you know, flag burning, you know, free speech, it's America, but just putting our political hats on, you had vandalism

of monuments, some pretty gross signs, some anti-Semitic signs in these protests. And so, unfortunately, you have to think about Josh Shapiro in this context, because he's Jewish, because he spoke out about the protests. And I just kind of balance like, is the risk of having some of the people that are on TikTok excited about Kamala being upset? Is that offset by the fact that maybe it'd be good actually to have Shapiro, who's very deft in talking about these issues, you know, kind of calming down those voters we were talking about earlier, the Philly suburb, Atlanta suburb type, kind of red dog swing voters. Where do you fall on that question? So that's what I said to Mona was that I thought that he could speak to the center of the electorate about the very complex, you know, conflict in Gaza and the many sides to it. And he

can speak fluidly about that and make the case to the senator of the electorate that they are going to have a balanced policy on the Middle East if they win. And they're on the White House. I see the appeal of that. Bibi aside, what happened at Union Station, the protests were pushed back from the Capitol when he was there. So the closest they could get was the train station. And what happened there was disgusting. I saw Capitol Police pushed to the ground. That's not peaceful protest. And Hamas is coming is free speech. But taking down the American flag and burning it, it just makes me really angry. And it's something I think that Biden and Harris should address. I have mixed feelings about her skipping a speech. I understand

why many members of Congress did. But even if she has her objections to his execution of the war, I feel that maybe she should have, as the new presidential candidate, been there because it was her duty as president of the senate to do that not a duty of the president united states however but this is a hornet's nest i know that and so because this hornet says this is my thing with shapiro is like isn't lowering the salience of this issue best we're just being purely machiavellian here we, taking out all the moral implications of the conflict, is putting him in there, will it raise the salience of this issue in a way that's unhelpful? Where if you choose Roy Cooper, which has its own problems, like nobody's going to talk about Gaza that day.

But if you choose Josh Shapiro, people are going to talk about Gaza. You're absolutely right. It absolutely does. That's concerning. The other side of it is positive. I think there are tons of positives of Josh. And I do wonder if, you know, in the way that Kamala, just as a visual, like her walking down the stairs from the plane to greet those two girls. Do you see that? So she flew to Wisconsin for the campaign event. Yeah. And, you know, cable news has like visuals and she's walking down the long stairs.

Right. And she gets to the bottom. There's a black woman with two girls that she's greeting and she leans down. long stairs right and she gets to the bottom there's a black woman with two girls that she's greeting and she leans down you can't hear anything right but it's just like that image itself is just like wow that is future that is powerful yeah and shapiro in a way that roy cooper is not you know kind of supports that image. It's a young family, it's future, it's page turning. And also to certain kinds of voters, I think particularly Jewish voters

or people that are big supporters of Israel, without even saying anything, it's a visual thing of like, wait a minute, yet don't worry, we're not on the side of the people burning the flag. And that was the appeal to me, that he could speak really fluidly and really eloquently to the complexity of this, to the center of the electorate that might have been critical about what they see on the left as a Jew.

And I just that was the appeal to me. And I also agree with you just as an optics thing. He's much more tomorrow than Roy Cooper. I have a little buzz that Roy Cooper is being more seriously considered than maybe he's been talked about. So I just wanted to add him to the convo today. Do you have any deep thoughts about Roy Cooper? No, just about North Carolina. So I understand that the Democrats, and I know that you did this your whole career, Tim.

I mean, you know, you look at how they're spending money, the parties, and you're like, huh. You know, a couple of months ago, the Democrats thought that they could put Florida in play because abortion would be a ballot initiative is going to be there. I mean, that was a joke. And I understand the temptation. There's a lot of black vote in North Carolina. I understand the temptation because Mark Robinson is crazy to believe they can flip it. I could be wrong. It's just that I want the resources right now to go to the sixth state, not the seventh.

And I don't know if Cooper gets you the state the way that Shapiro gets you Pennsylvania. Yeah, my issue with Cooper is just going back to the optics thing. We're just doing Roger Ailes here. We're just doing TV picture. Balloons are coming down on the stage. The Shapiro thing is a different look roy cooper is like you know now you got follicle or leghorn on stage and maybe that maybe that optic is also good to some people in georgia right that it's like oh wait okay i don't need to be so scared about com look because i got foghorn leghorn next to him like i don't know. I don't know. But I think probably not. Let's just do Pete really quick

because I feel like I've been dismissive of Pete. And I'm like coming back around. I think I'm wrong, but I'm coming back around just because it's like, okay, if there's nobody that's perfect, right? If Hamas had never attacked Israel, then Josh Spiro would be perfect. That is not fair for

Josh. It sucks, but it's just, it is reality. They did and we are where we are. So if there's nobody that's perfect, why not just pick the person that's the best on TV and the best on the stump and who's going to be the best at making fun of JD Vance? Why not just do that? I was told that he has a problem with the base of the party. Yeah. I don't know if the excitement of Kamala can break through to the church going black voter who is 69 years old, who doesn't think that a gay man should be vice president.

I just want to defend you really quick as a gay. I can say this. It's just, it just is the focus groups aren't great. Okay. And it's not just black voters. It's men of all races. But the all black focus groups are just, it just happens.

Like, this is just a fact. Like, when you have a focus group of black men and you ask them about a gay candidate, one person will say, not cool for me. And then other people kind of be like, yeah, I'm worried about what other people think. It's that thing that you would hear, you know, about Barackama in focus groups of white like i'm just worried about what my neighbor thinks you know there's that like but um that it's just not great and it's not great among the bro vibe and he had hulk hogan at his fucking thing for a reason like there's a non-racial component that's just there we're not all the way there i guess that said he's pretty good and suburban white ladies like gays suburban white ladies like gays.

Suburban black ladies like gays. Suburban ladies of all races like gays. So, you know, I don't know. Anyway. Pete stands out because he is a singular talent. He is so brilliant. He just exudes empathy and calm and kindness and humility while being brilliant. I mean, I think most Democrats would say I trust him the most with the nuclear codes and facing down Putin and Xi. Seriously, I think that this is just a thing that's in the way. And I just don't know how much erosion it would cost her. I just can't get my hands around it, but that's what I'm told. But he would be my choice.

There's no question. Last thing, just about the convention and the things going around it, I've been meaning to mention this. There's this horrible video of a Sonia Massey black woman that gets just murdered in cold blood by police in her home after calling them over. And she's like boiling a pot of water or something

and she picks it up and she says, boiling a pot of water or something and she picks it up and she says god will rebuke you and it was like a positive thing and the cop didn't understand what she was saying and it's like put down the pot and then she goes put down the pot and then he shoots her in the head that's horrific but it's notable obviously it's notable for a lot of reasons we kind of had george floyd in 2020 and kind of how that galvanized people in this case it's in chicago and so oh we've been totally consumed by kind of the hot stove politics of all this over the past few weeks but there are kind of these social social justice issues not just gaza but you know police violence that might be propping up in chicago i'm just wondering if you have any kind of thoughts about how that could play. It's really upsetting to me. I know we're in a huge

news tornado. And I know that who is potentially going to be president of the United States is a worldwide, you know, priority. I get that. But I'm really horrified that I just stumbled upon that in a CNN segment and it hasn't not a lot of people know about it and it hasn't been covered a lot and I did not see a video but I heard the body cam recording and he literally says afterwards like I'm not going to let someone like throw boiling water at me something to that effect he's had like six jobs in law enforcement he's all the way across the kitchen I guess I jobs in law enforcement he's all the way across the kitchen i guess i watched the video he's like all the way across the kitchen she couldn't have thrown the boiling water on him it's just really just horrifying and i really hope that someone

brings it to light soon and they should not wait to the convention to have ben crumb or someone come talk about i, this should be highlighted as soon as possible. It's just absolutely horrifying. Last thing, Donald Trump, as I mentioned earlier, he had his first campaign event since Kamala was chosen. Before I get to what I wanted to talk about, he has a pretty lackadaisical schedule. I don't know. We did a lot of complaining about Joe Biden. He does nothing. I looked on his events here was events this week he had one rally yesterday he's meeting with bb tomorrow that he has nothing on his calendar today maybe something will show up he has one rally saturday he's been golfing every day he did a golfing video with bryson dechambeau and uh i gotta say his stroke doesn't look that good

for somebody that supposedly won the club championship he's not doing fucking anything and and i again i think that this is a advantage a sleeper advantage that people who don't like do the day-to-days of campaigns might it might not have sunk in yet like kamala is going to be working yes yes and like trump was golfing and biden just was also presidenting and moving much slower than he has in the past. And so it was kind of parody. It's no longer going to be parody on candidate activity. So there's something to be said for that, I think.

I agree. I think that her bounding around the country, you know, doing all these energetic events with enthusiastic crowds is obviously we didn't have that with Biden and it's going to make a huge difference. On his campaign appearances, what upsetsets me I know we followed online you watched the entire thing which I can't believe you're the stomach for Twitter's now doing this crazy thing where you watch the video and you want to like send it or something to someone or send it to yourself and then it's on to the next video it's like we haven't had enough change in the last three weeks. So, yeah. So, anyway, I just feel if you listen to him last night,

that that's like a whole campaign speech in and of itself. I know she will not do that. She's going to take the high road and do her stump. I want some VP or other messengers like amplifying that for the American public now every day. I mean, last night was off the, it was just completely off the wall. Hannibal Lecter, I tried being nice because I was shot, but I'm not going to be nice anymore. Let's just listen to that one really quick and we'll keep it going. You know, I was supposed to be nice. They say something happened to me when i got shot i became nice

and when you're dealing with these people they're very dangerous people when you're dealing with them you can't be too nice you really can't be so if you don't mind i'm not gonna be nice is that okay you want me to be nice scott. Scott Jennings and Van Jones hardest hit there after the big unity takes. So anyway, continue. Yeah. So, so there are very dangerous people, Tim, which is the kind of word that could inspire the wrong person. If you're calling Harris and her supporters, dangerous people, of course,

Benny Johnson and Charlie Kirk both tweeted that exact clip because they were just brimming with pride that he was back to being a total dick. So great. The thing about these rallies, as we know, is they sort of like burst onto Twitter and some stuff is shared, but most of the country's not on Twitter and life moves on and only the faithful know what happened at the rally. And it's just frustrating. He's, that is his campaign and it needs to be digested and amplified. And I'm waiting for that. I mean, it's,

I know Harris HQ or Kamala HQ or Brad HQ sends out the videos and that's great, but I need my mom and other people to know what he's saying at these events that's that's my you know as we look to these 16 weeks like that it's essential yeah more this convention's over you know everyone knows that that he was shot but how many people are going to learn that he said that last night so it was weird I will say I'm not not doing any conspiracy mongering here. But Chris Wray, did you see that Chris Wray at the FBI set testified yesterday that we

still don't know if it was a bullet or shrapnel? Yeah, I think the way they've handled this has been very strange. And I'm not making any conspiracies. I'm just just as a process matter. Like they should there should be press conferences about this like the presidential candidate was shot at like you know after hinkley shot reagan like i was a baby but like i maybe i wasn't even alive but uh i've seen the videos of like the press conference that's happening outside the hospital right like you answer questions the doctors do that that whole thing

has been very strange i need to piggyback on that this is like an obsession of mine oh great after mass casualty events we always the guys come to the driveway in their white coats the doctors they tell us everything we know nothing about his wound nothing about what happened this is insane and if the media is too intimidated to knock on the door, Sanjay Gupta of CNN, to my knowledge, is the only person who's raised this point. If the media is too intimidated because they think Trump's going to be president next year to try to beat this down and find out, I'm just furious about that. Why does he get a pass? Thank you, A.V. I agree with that. I'm glad you're saying that. whole thing is the whole thing is strange all right last thought on trump's rally i agree with everything you said about the content and how people need to be seeing it more and and full court press from

kamala brad hq uh just armchair psychologizing though i will say this and maybe this will leave people with a happy happy note on a thursday i've been watching his speeches and in the period between the debate and the assassination attempt, he was still Trump, right? I'm not saying he was a changed man, but he was lighter. It was a little more jokey. The confidence, you can just see, like he's not, you can see the confidence in a showman. And he had it, the crowd work. You know, he still did his crazy stuff. He still did his conspiracy stuff. know he still did his crazy stuff he still did his conspiracy stuff and he still did his angry stuff at times but the general vibe was a little bit lighter was the man that

thinks he is winning that thinks that things are turning up trump and then the vibe at the convention was a little melancholy right it was like the shooting attempt and you're like i'm processing all that the vibe yesterday was back to fucking angry it reminded me of the rally which was also in north carolina i believe where they did the send them back chant like it was a rabid crowd it was trump was angry his carriage was angry that makes me think that grandpa's been watching his stories on TV and is a little unhappy that somebody else is getting attention. And that I like. He always said that.

He said she was the most unpopular. Now she's so beautiful. She's so magnificent. What happened? And he's bitter and snarling and jealous and jealous. And, and he's, and he's panicked,

I think, but I think people should feel good about the fact that elon is now pretending he's not going to give him 45 mil a month maybe because he thinks trump will go down kamala has had the best launch of anyone ever in politics overnight and nothing's gone wrong for her and i just think that trump cares about ratings he talked about his convention last night the ratings but a great convention the ratings all he cares about his ratings yeah right and he doesn't know that people watch things on their computers and he is just i want people to go into their day knowing that the full kamala mania say goodbye to joe biden hollywood you know maybe

a surprise appearance from beyonce whatever goes down at that convention is going to give this guy he is going to be at the nadir of misery that he has not felt in so long because it's all he cares about and the dnc was supposed to be a bombC was supposed to be a bomb. It was supposed to be a funeral. No one was going to come. Maybe they would have had to cancel it. Just tell Biden to give another speech from his little office if he was the candidate. And now it's going to be this complete palooza mania of excitement. And it's just going to kill him.

Well, you aren't a bummer today ab um reminding us of jealous trump thank you for coming on the pod we will see you soon you're looking great it's great to be with you tim i'm excited about the guest tomorrow we'll be back tomorrow with a good one we'll see y'all then peace i kind of want to throw my phone across the room because all i see a girl's too good to be true with paper white teeth and perfect bodies wish i didn't care I know that beauty's not my lack But it feels like that weight is on my back And I can't let it go Com-comparison is killing me slowly I think I think too much About kids who don't know me

I'm so sick of myself Rather be, rather be Anyone, anyone else My jealousy, jealousy, yeah All your friends are so cool You go out every night In your daddy's good car yeah, you're living the life Got a pretty face, pretty boyfriend too

I wanna be so bad and I don't even know you All I see is what I should be Happier, prettier, jealousy, jealousy All I see is what I should be I'm losing it all again, jealousy, jealousy The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.