The Bulwark Podcast - A.B. Stoddard: No One Feared Kevin

Episode Date: December 7, 2023

And now no one is afraid of Mike Johnson—so he won't be able to lead either. Plus, a Christie-Haley alliance is starting to materialize, Marjorie Taylor Greene now has no sugar daddy, and Liz Cheney reminds us that we have one job. A.B. Stoddard joins Charlie Sykes. show notes: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2024/01/donald-trump-second-term-policies/676176/ https://www.axios.com/2023/12/07/trump-loyalty-cabinet-2025-carlson-miller-bannon https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/12/05/donald-trump-authoritarian-rule-second-term-maga/ 

Welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm Charlie Sykes. It is December 7th, 2023, a day that will live in infamy. Kevin McCarthy is out and Marjorie Taylor Greene's not taking this well. We're going to get to that in just a moment. Also, yesterday, in case you missed it, we had a one-on-one with Liz Cheney, who said some interesting things about her possible plans for 2024. I have some questions about all of that. And look, I am not going to complain about Time Magazine's selection of Taylor Swift as Person of the Year. Okay, I like Taylor Swift. I get it. This is kind of a parlor game to rip on on Time magazine, although they've kind of been on kind of a streak. Remember, it was Elon Musk a couple of years ago, did not age that well. But I have a different idea who should have been the person of the year.

And because most of you had a life, because most of you had a life and did not watch the debate, the four-person Republican debate last night on News Nation. A.B. Stoddard stayed up and took notes because she and I are going to break it down for you. We watched it so you didn't have to. A.B., good morning. How are you? I'm good to be with you, Charlie. I'm grumpy about watching the debate, as I always am. Round four, but always good to be with you. Do you sort of wake up in the morning saying, where do I go to get last night back? I mean, it was just one of those, oh, man, the yelling, the screaming, the insulting. And it's all the undercard.

It's all like, who wants to finish second? So can we just start with the highlights of all of this? Because I think one of the more awesome moments was where Chris Christie spoke for all of America when he slapped down Vivek Ramaswamy. I was going to throw in the thoroughly obnoxious Vivek Ramaswamy, but my editor kicked in and said that would be redundant. So let's just play. One of the key moments, because a lot of things happen in the relatively short period of this soundbite. Chris Christie. His reasonable peace deal in Ukraine, he made it clear.

Give them all the land they've already stolen. Promise Putin you'll never put Ukraine in Russia. And then trust Putin not to have a relationship with China. Let me tell you something. That's not my deal. Yes, it's exactly what you said. You do this at every debate. Don't interrupt me. I didn't interrupt you.

Okay? You do this at every debate. You go out on the stump and you say something. All of us see it on video We confront you on the debate stage you say you didn't say it and then you're back away and I want to say I'm not done yet. Well, this is Proud turning against me back here the fourth debate that you would be voted in the first 20 minutes as the most obnoxious blowhard in America. So shut up for a minute. I'm going to respond to that. I want to say something else. We're now 25 minutes into this debate,

and he has insulted Nikki Haley's basic intelligence. Not her positions. Her basic intelligence. She doesn't know regions. She wouldn't be able to find something on a map that his three-year-old could find. Look, if you want to disagree on issues, that's fine. And Nikki and I disagree on some issues. But I'll tell you this. I've known her for 12 years, which is longer than he's even started to vote in a Republican primary.

Landed that one. And while we disagree about some issues and we disagree about who should be president of the United States, what we don't disagree on is this is a smart, accomplished woman. You should stop insulting her. Oh, man. I mean, there were other moments. Christie goes after Ron DeSantis for trying to dodge and weave around the question of whether or not Donald Trump was unfit. As usual, Chris Christie was the only one who prosecuted the case against Donald Trump. his best debate. But I also saw something kind of interesting. You kind of had, did you kind of sense a little bit of a Christie-Nikki Haley alliance there on the stage against the guy that everybody in that room hated? First of all, I think it was clear that Chris Christie saw this as his last debate. He did a phenomenal job, not only because he's the only one who tells the truth, as you point out, but he listened to everything everyone said and was so quick to be able to come back and challenge

them on it or declare his own position, which might've been an opposition. he was so engaged and the moment when he stuck up for Nikki Haley and then complimented her looked like this is Christy preparing to endorse her and help her down the road that's probably coming at some point but he was tough on her he lumped her in repeatedly with these three timid people on the stage who refuse to acknowledge the truth who are making excuses for enabling etc about trump and he did not go easy she did not get exempt from that and that's part of like the power of chris christie's not afraid and he wasn't gonna kiss up to anybody. And he can hear things. When you and I are listening to Ron DeSantis or Vivek,

it's so upsetting and it's so hard or it's so awkward that your mind starts to wander. And Chris Christie, never. He is so sharp. And his charm, the way, like you mentioned, that Ron DeSantis was trying to say, Father, time is undefeated, which is his way of saying Trump needs to go. And that's why I should be the replacement for Trump.

And when Christie challenged him, he was charming. He said, look, Ron, you're fit. Of course, you're fit to be president. And you're only 44. I'd love to be 44. You know, and he was he was just really incredible that way. I've been feeling that a little, you know, internal pressure that he did. Yes, the right thing to do is for Chris Christie to step aside and, you know, let Nikki Haley emerge. But my position has been no, stay in as

long as you can. And last night, I thought vindicated that because if Chris Christie was not on that stage, nobody was going to mention Lord Voldemort. Nobody was going to go after Donald Trump. Nobody was going to talk about his lack of fitness for office. Nobody was going to make those points that he made. They're not going to change the outcome. I get all this. I get it's the undercard, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But at a certain point, these things need to be said. People like Liz Cheney need to step up and say these things. People like Bill Barr need to say these things. Chris Christie needs to stand on stage and call out fellow Republicans and say, why are

you so timid? Why are you afraid to say that Donald Trump, who might be a convicted felon, should not be allowed anywhere near the White House? So he should stay there as long as he can, because he's the only one who says those things. That's my son. Exactly. Everyone wants to pressure him to get out and help her out because his voters go to her, unlike DeSantis voters who go to Trump. You know, last night was kind of a missed opportunity for Nikki Haley.

She didn't really. Yeah, she showed that she can take a punch and all, but I thought that she was going to have a speech prepared about why she is the best person instead of Ron DeSantis and why she's gaining all his donors and supporters is because she speaks to this type of leadership, blah, blah, blah. I thought she'd have a stump speech on why she's surging, and she didn't really have that. She should have. And Chris Christie, I want him there for that reason like you described just still this morning charlie in a rage at the moderators for letting vivek ramaswamy say that trump won the 2020 election or it was rigged or stolen or whatever and that january 6th was an inside job. And Chris Christie

didn't even go after him. Chris Christie could have used his final, you know, moments to say, listen to this crop that we're hearing from this guy who's a Trump. Well, because Vivek doesn't count. I mean, I think that that was one of the other sort of sub themes of this is that everybody decided that Vivek Ramaswamy was just not worth a response he was at the let's scrape him off the bottom of our shoes because we stepped in i mean after that stupid moment where he vivek has decided that he's going to go full fever swamp conspiracy theories every bullshit conspiracy he's going full q anon and you know and there were some of these smart pundits who were saying that well he's doing's doing the rational thing. He's appealing to Maggie. He's just made

himself the most thoroughly disliked person. When he held up that sign, that stupid sign, Nikki Haley, you could tell he lost the entire crowd. And then they asked, well, Nikki, do you want to respond to this, you know, stream of bullshit we just heard? And she said, no, it's not even worth it. The guy is just not even worth our time. He's not even worth our contempt. And that was smart. And I know that you and I shouldn't even be talking about him. But strategically, he succeeded in absorbing the entire debate.

Christie spoke the least. I think he spoke the most. And he is a Trump plant. And he was there to make sure that Nikki Haley and Ron DeSantis couldn't actually battle for second place. So he's irrelevantly relevant, relevantly irrelevant there. Again, let's not actually go too far to pretend that this debate actually mattered all that much. And you have Tom Fitton asking questions. I mean, this was the undercard of the undercard of the

undercard and pretty much a recognition that the RNC just doesn't give a shit. I mean, it's like, we're just going to like, you know, throw things out to news. We don't need to diss News Nation. Anything else? I mean, I thought that Ron DeSantis was Ron DeSantis, but I almost like kind of forget him. I mean, he wasn't terrible. I mean, nothing changes, but he wasn't terrible. That's the nicest thing I can say. You know, that's a headline that Ron DeSantis overprepared for this debate and he has done a lot of memorization and he puberty blockers you know central bank digitized currency something something Fauci and buckle up there's a new sheriff coming to town but the truth is that over time he has gotten better i mean that's just

the truth that that over time he's gotten better again it's like can you govern or are you just you know performing the show and he's never as you've always said gotten that it is a show and he's a disaster as a person he can't relate people just wanted to finish the sentence and sort of go away i think he shows if you're a republican out there and you don't want Trump, you know, you think this guy, look, I mean, we all beat up on him and he sort of has no, he has no charm and he's like, it's pathetic, but he's confident. He has a record. He could execute.

He could govern. And again, he never should have run. You know, we've talked about it a million times but i was sitting there just like you thinking ron has put in a better debate performance with each passing night for what that's worth i agreed with you by the way about nikki nikki didn't didn't have a breakthrough night on the other hand i think she might have benefited somewhat from vivek's obnoxiousness it's also interesting that you, she feels that she needs to move to the right on certain social issues in ways that they sort of lack a certain authenticity

when she was talking about, you know, eliminating all anonymity on the internet. I mean, did she really think about that for more than five minutes? Was that where she was really going? And then, of course, last night, she said that Florida's Don't Say Gay bill didn't go far enough. She actually, so wants to attack Rhonda Sanders for not being

sufficiently right wing on this. I actually said that his don't say gay bill didn't go far enough because it only talked about gender until the third grade. And I said, it shouldn't be done at all. That's for parents to talk about. It shouldn't be talked about in the school. It shouldn't even just come up at all. So, I mean, this is kind of the race like, you know, you've taken this hair on fire culture war issues. Well, you didn't set your whole body on fire like I'm going to. I don't know. It's just interesting how much they know that this is a joke.

When they're up there at the undercard debate, they don't even really try when someone attacks them. Like, it's a Ron Nikki. Okay, forget Vivay. But she'll just go, oh, you're lying about that. She's not actually really threatened by his attacks enough to make a full-throated argument. She goes, that's not true.

You know, maybe in Iowa, we're going to get down to a Charlie where they really are the last two people standing besides Trump. And maybe they really will be, you know, in a neck and neck debate with each other. But at this moment, she didn't seem like she needed to stick up for herself with anybody last night. So here's a simple but meaningful gift idea for that grandparent who lives across the country, a digital picture frame from Aura. I mean, it's perfect for sharing pictures of all the things they can't be there to see, from family vacations to their grandkids' graduation. Okay, in this particular case, I am the grandparent, and I just got back from

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and get $30 off their best-selling frames with the code BULWORK. That's A-U-R-A frames.com with the promo code bulwark these frames sell out quickly though so get yours before they're gone terms and conditions apply so would you like a little bit of a dose of analysis with your schadenfreude or your schadenfreude with your analysis. Kevin McCarthy is quitting Congress. Now, this story is so fascinating, the trajectory of Kevin McCarthy. I mean, think about what Kevin McCarthy, one year ago today, okay, what he thought his 2023 was going to be like. He's thinking, oh, I'm going to be speaker. And I don't know what, how he thought it was going to play out. I'll figure out how to get Marjorie Taylor Greene to be one of my fanboys and I can handle

Matt Gaetz and I will succeed where every other Republican has failed. He's got a five vote majority. So what does he do? He makes, you know, every single concessions, he self-guelts himself. He's like, hey, that's somebody who ripped me on that. You can't self-guelts yourself. He gets into the speakership by self-gelding, making every possible concession. So his speakership begins with chaos and humiliation, and then months later ends in chaos and humiliation. He gets his portrait, I guess, and now he's out of Congress altogether. Wow. I posted in my Morning Shots newsletter, a picture that covered that book, Young Guns, the generational future of the Republican Party.

You know, Cantor, Ryan McCarthy hasn't aged well, didn't turn out well. So talk to me about Kevin McCarthy and Kevin McCarthy leaving and his decision to leave. I mean, there's a rational basis to quit after you've been humiliated, right, and made irrelevant. But it's a big fuck you to the House conference, isn't it? Because now you're down to what, two vote margin, about to be a one vote margin. He knew he was doing this, right? So the overarching theme of this is that there's no leadership and you can't really lead without some level of fear.

There's no fear. So Kevin McCarthy was really good at scratching everyone's back in the conference. And he ran around, raised money, threw goodies around, and he was super happy puppy, doggy guy and super nice. And he would text your mom on her birthday before you did and all those things but no one ever feared him he couldn't actually threaten real retaliation and he didn't know how to use that in ways that nancy pelosi and mitch mcconnell have always been able to and so he loses his job yeah and now no one's afraid of mike Johnson, so he can't lead either.

And so Bill Johnson, a Republican from Ohio, is going to lead to take university president position early in the year, as you mentioned. And with Kevin's departure, the math is just, and obviously the expulsion of George Santos is just blowing up in their face. So it really is, at this point, everyone is turning on everyone. And there's no, it's not that there's no unity, that the last tool that would be available is some kind of, you know, environment where someone can get Trump on the phone and make you afraid. You know, we'll just, we'll come and punish you for this in this way. No one believes it. Everyone hates Congress. They all hate each other. And they want to leave, just like patrick mckenry just announced this week that he would leave he's not going to leave before the end of the cycle but when you're chairman of financial services and you walk away you're admitting that your conference is about to go into the minority and some miserable shit show

and no one could talk you into staying because you don't care well and also you have to think okay so i i like the position i like the power i like the fact that i have the pin and all that stuff but i have to sit in a room with some of america's dumbest assholes i mean just two years i mean i keep that they're looking around going so is it worth it is it worth to spend another two or four years sitting next to laurenebert and Matt Gates and Paul Gosar and all of these folks? And so to give you an indication of how bitter things are, so going back to Kevin McCarthy, whose trajectory feels so completely inevitable and predictable. I mean, when he became speaker after the 15 rounds, having made every single concession, surrendered every part of his soul to the bomb thrower element of his caucus. It was pretty easy to say that he's the weakest speaker that

we've ever had following one of the strongest speakers and that this serial humiliation wouldn't end well. He kept shrinking himself, shrinking himself, shrinking himself into this position. And amazingly, he turned out to be an incredibly small man. Now, the one thing that he did do that was effective, he kept the government open, which is what would cost him his job. But in the end, there's Kevin McCarthy. As you said, sort of the puppy dog going around, licking everybody's hand, saying, can you put me back in? Maybe I will come back in. But in the end, what is he doing? He's shoving other congressmen in the back. He's clearly deeply embittered about the role that Nancy Mace played. He's shoving other congressmen in the back. He's clearly deeply embittered about the role that Nancy Mace played. He's throwing out bombs about Matt Gaetz.

But this decision to resign is really something. And you can tell how bad it is because Marjorie Taylor Greene is really upset about it. Remember? Kevin McCarthy's speakership is going to be remembered for a lot of things. But certainly one of them is the way that he embraced and empowered Marjorie Taylor Greene. Good on you, Kevin. That's on your record. So she's very unhappy that her sugar daddy is leaving. She writes, do you see this tweet here? I'm holding it up here. Well, now in 2024, we will have a one seat majority in the House of

Representatives. Congratulations, Freedom Caucus, for 105 representatives who expel our own for the other. This would be about the George Santos thing. I can assure you Republican voters did not give us the majority to crash the ship. Hopefully no one dies. Yeah. Hopefully no one dies because then it's all gone. It's the best. Yeah. George Santos leaves, Kevin McCarthy leaves, say, hey, Mike, have fun. Enjoy yourself. Be a real shame if anything happened to your shitty majority here. That is such a good point about, you know, Kevin McCarthy took the shine off of Marjorie Taylor Greene. She went corporate. She is so not the same person having sold out to the establishment and leadership.

And she's accused another member this week of physically assaulting her. I mean, the place is- Another Republican member. You literally cannot make it up. With each passing day, what they are willing to do to each other, say out loud, put on Twitter. And it's not going to end well. And they're not going to stop. It is not going to stop. It is not going

to stop at all. I mean, there's a couple of substantive questions that have to be asked here. I mean, number one, we know that they're moving ahead with impeachment of Joe Biden, in part because, you know, Mike Johnson has to do it because that's what the crazy caucus is absolutely demanding he does. So that's his CYA, right? He has no choice. He has to move ahead. This is what the base wants. And so that was going to be a tough lift with only a five-vote majority, a little tougher lift with a four-vote majority, even tougher vote with a three-vote majority. What do you think? I mean, now that they're down to two and one, are they still going to go ahead with it?

Yes, I think they are. And I think it's going to pass because I heard Mike Lawler rationalizing it. Mike Lawler, OK. One of the normies. Yeah, and so maybe Ken Buck is the only one who bucks the conference, and he's the only nay vote. I think that they have found a way to convince those guys that all they need to do is support the conference on an opening of an inquiry because things need to be investigated. Just asking questions. Right.

It's just opening the inquiry. And there's the talking point about $24 million going to the family, and that's suspicious. And so we just really need to find more out. And that's why I think it's definitely, I think Johnson's going to have that vote. And then it's a question of where they go from there. And that's a rough one. And I do think that it's entirely possible that one of them just freaks out and follows

Kevin out the door on like February 10th. And Hakeem Jeffries is speaker. It's just not out of the realm of the possible that this impeachment thing becomes a box canyon, that people flip out and that they literally torpedo their actual majority before the end of the cycle. This is the irony of this moment, because everything that happens in our politics is now irrational slash crazy. So this is one of those moments where the impeachment vote might buy some time for Mike Johnson. It will benefit Mike Johnson because he's satisfied, you know, the caucus, the folks who, you know, hold the leash. But it also might benefit Joe Biden

because Democrats are bored with him. There are disillusioned. There's a rally around factor. And this is going to be a clown car. I mean, the fact is that people hear these things about the 24 million or about the direct checks. When you actually start having the inquiry, I think, you know, Jim Comer is not ready for prime time. This evidence is not ready for prime time. Now, maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe people don't care about what the facts are, but it's like one embarrassment after another. I mean, one day after another, James Comer, the chairman of the House Oversight Committee, comes out with some screaming bombshell and smoking gun. And within two or three hours, everybody goes,

yeah, you misread the document or no, it was about a truck. It was not that you lied about this. And so it's one thing to sort of be doing it on the side. But I just, again, you know, going back to our theme of this is not going to end well, I just don't see how it does. Yeah, I think that the Democrats, like you said, will be energized and sort of unite on this focus. They've got Hunter Biden offering to testify publicly and the Republicans refusing. Comer on the record, as you've said, bungling a

bunch of revelations. Comer has admitted that after his first impeachment hearing, he doesn't really want to hold any more because the Republicans on the committee cannot counter the Democrats when they're in that environment. The Democrats on that committee are way much more able than the Republicans are. They have thin evidence, non-evidence. And I heard Lawler saying, you know, Russian oligarchs. And I mean, all the Democrats have to do is tally up, you know, the quotes from Don Jr. or Eric in 2007 saying we don't need to deal with American banks. We get most of our money from the Russians. I mean, talk about, you know, Jared's deal with the Saudis.

I mean, there's no end. There's literally no end to the kleptocracy and the compromise and the corruption of the Trump family. So if the Republicans bring it, they are going to get it. There's no question. And I think the thing about Hunter is easy for the public to understand. He wants to talk in public and they won't let him, you know, even someone who's barely paying any attention to this understands like, that's just BS. I am going to confess. I worry about Hunter. I mean, I understand, you know, the, the love of a father for his son, but Hunter is, um, there's a vast dark hole of sketchiness there.

Oh, great. I'm just saying, if he's willing to take questions and the Republicans are going to say, we don't want you as a public witness. Oh, that is a bad look. Okay, so let's now switch a little bit back to presidential politics. As you know, I sat down with Liz Cheney yesterday. By the way, her new book is just a blowout bestseller. It's topping the charts on Amazon.

Amazon ran out of books. It's amazing. If you want it, go to Barnes & Noble or someplace else. Those things that used to be known as bookstores to get the books. But this is getting a lot of attention, a lot of sales. I've actually told friends and family that if you're looking for, you know, Christmas gifts, you ought to give your significant others, the influencers in your life. I mean, you could do a lot worse than to give Liz Cheney's book because first of all,

it's well-written and I think she wrote it herself. I mean, it's very well-written and it tells a very, very compelling story. But the one part that I wanted to bounce off you is the fact that, you know, she's made it absolutely clear that she will do anything, anything to prevent Donald Trump's return to the White House. That the worst case scenario, the thing that matters more than anything else is keeping him out of power. And yet she is willing to toy with the idea of a third party run. This is our exchange when she, and I said, well, what is that about? Listen to her. And then I want to get you, because I'm not quite sure how it all plays out. So let's just play Liz Cheney from the Bulwark interview yesterday. Before we get into all of this, and I want to focus on the warning,

your description of what happened, how close we came and what it might mean for next year. But let's just deal with the news cycle for a second, because I'm sure everybody else is asking you this. I know that you are committed to doing everything absolutely possible to prevent Donald Trump's reelection, that that is the worst case scenario. So talk to me about the speculation that you're thinking about a third party. Yeah, I mean, what I've said is I haven't made any decisions yet. And the last thing that I will do is anything that will help Donald Trump. You know, there are some people today who say, well, if you're opposed to Donald Trump, then you need to automatically endorse the Democrat.

And my view is I'm not confident at this moment that the Democratic Party, we don't know exactly who the nominee is going to be, but I'm not confident they can beat Trump. I think that it would be irresponsible at this moment, frankly, to say, we're going to put all of our eggs in that basket. They have to prove that they can defeat Trump. And I think it's going to take, frankly, more than that. So I think that we'll know more in the next couple of months. We'll see who the Republican nominee really is. We'll see who the Democratic nominee is. And I think all of us who recognize the danger that Trump poses will be able to make decisions then about what's next. So what do you think?

Should Joe Biden run for reelection? That's up, obviously, to Joe Biden and the Democratic Party. I don't want to go down that path of giving advice. What do you think? I think that right now we have a number of policy areas in which the Biden administration is failing to do the right thing. And that is giving potential strength to Donald Trump. When you look at what's happening on the border, for example, when you have, you know, even Democratic mayors and governors around the country saying this is this has got to stop. We

cannot have the kind of lack of knowledge of who's coming into this country that we have right now. I'm worried about where we're headed on national security issues, for example. Fundamentally, we have to be able to defeat Donald Trump. And we can live with those bad policies if we have to. But we can't give people a reason to say to themselves, you know what? I know Donald Trump is dangerous. I know that what he did was wrong. But he's the lesser of two evils because he's not. So I because it's not clear to me exactly how a third party helps this. So what's going on, do you think?

She's not ever going to be a spoiler. I have no fear that Liz Cheney will ever do anything like with the no labels bullshit that might split the anti-Trump vote. So what is she talking about? Right. When she said that, when she started with that, just like you, I believed her. I believed that she, that she never wants to be a spoiler for Trump and that this is not about her ego. She is right that on immigration and crime, the Democrats have given an opening to trump and that's bears out on all the polling that i've written about and you have too and i think that she sounds like someone who is working mightily behind the scenes probably in both parties to try to change people's minds about

these nominations and that she would probably like to be defending Gretchen Whitmer. That's what I think. And she was smart to not, you know, not answer your question about whether or not Biden should run. But she sounds like someone, because she didn't have a really reasonable answer for you, Charlie, who's trying really hard to work every angle. It's clear from her conversation with you that she's going to try to get everyone to come out and publicly put up a united front and there should be strength in numbers to try to convince people that putting the Republic before their personal policy preferences is necessary this time. So I'm hoping from that answer that she won't be a spoiler and

that she is going to do what she can to try to convince people of how dangerous this looks right now, because from the polling, she is right. She's not convinced that Biden's in a position to defeat Trump again. Well, I think you're exactly right. I think that a year from now, in November of 2024, if it is Donald Trump versus Joe Biden, I don't have any doubt whatsoever that she will vote for Joe Biden to keep Donald Trump out of the White House. But she's also recognizing that it is not a year from now.

It is not November 2024, and that we may get to that point. But right now, I am with her on this, because she's very clear-eyed that the main goal of 2024, the one job that we have, the one overriding responsibility that we have, is not the re-election of Joe Biden, necessarily, but it is the defeat of Donald Trump. And if you focus on that, that whatever it takes to defeat Donald Trump, it is legitimate to say at this point, okay, before I give a blank check to Joe Biden and the Democrats, prove that you are the best way to do this. Because if there's

a chance that you are going to blow this election, that you are not going to be successful, then we need to think of alternatives. Now, I don't know how those alternatives work. There's something, something, something, how a third party plays out. I'm a little unclear on that, but I think that's the right formulation. I mean, I suppose from just a real politic point of view, by floating this out, she keeps her name in the mix, right? Politicians like to be mentioned. You got a book, there's the possibility. She can keep moving, you know, a little bit of pressure on the one party, the one party that can prevent Donald Trump to not say and do things that will cost them the election. So I think that's positive. So I understand that

there are a lot of folks out there listening to us, our colleagues who are just, no, you got to be with Biden. That's got to be Democrats down the line. Well, wait, I am not willing necessarily at this point to say, I mean, look, yeah, if it's, if it's Trump versus Biden, I'm going to vote for Biden. I get that. But what she's saying is prove to me that we're not sleepwalking into a Trump dictatorship because we're on autopilot and because we think the Democrats and Joe Biden deserve a gold watch, because that's not what 2024 is about. And I want to just, because this week, you know, you've tried to step back from the brink of gripping fear. And I've tried to find some bright lights and positive developments. We had more fake

elector positive developments in Nevada yesterday in Wisconsin. I think that at the same time, the first sign that I've seen that Joe Biden has acknowledged that he's breaking out of his denial is his statement this week saying that he is willing to make big changes on immigration and acknowledging that that's a huge liability. I am heartened by that acknowledgement and I am praying for an immigration deal on that military security aid because it really mitigates a huge problem. So I hope that works out so i think liz trini is right to say don't tell us that we have tds and that everything's fine and that biden beat this man in 2020 we all know who look at the data that he barely beat him after trump was responsible for hundreds of thousands of COVID deaths and all this other stuff. And now after January 6th is the poll leader. And I think you're also right that having stringing out the possibility that she might be a candidate gets her more TV and more opportunity to bash

Trump, shame Republicans, and try to also kind of spook Democrats about their complacency. So it is effective so far and I am in her debt. I just am so grateful for what she's doing and for the courage that it takes and that she just named names and called people out and it's disgusting to listen to. I haven't read the book yet, but I will, you know, I'll look forward to it. But it really is, it's a huge contribution to the cause. So just a note on the stepping back from the brink, because I think there's been a series of very interesting developments. And you encouraged me to do this with a piece that you had earlier this week. So that's, this doesn't happen in a vacuum. One of the good things that is happening is that all of the alarm bells are being sounded when there is still time to do something about it. I think it is a magnificent thing that The

Atlantic has voted an entire issue of the magazine to saying this is what a second Trump term will be substantively, not wringing their hands and playing Eeyore and playing horse race, but say, let's talk about the issues. This is what it means for NATO. This is what it means for the courts. This is what it means for the climate. This is what it means. It is fantastic. The New York Times has also done deep dive into pointing out that Trump's second term would not be the same as a first Trump term. Axios today, you and I were talking about this before the podcast and people have not seen this truly amazing reporting exclusive how Trump would build his loyalty-first cabinet. You think you know how bad it is?

Forget it. You're talking about Steve Bannon and Miller and Tucker Carlson and all of these folks being in the administration. So all of the alarm bells are sounding. The flares are going up. But the flip side of that is, what do we do with that alarm? Does that focus attention? Does that energize or does it debilitate? And this is where I wrote about what Greg Sargent, columnist for the Washington Post, he said, listen, excessive fatalism can be very counterproductive.

I mean, these things are bad and they're scary, but here's the key word. They are not inevitable. Inevitable is the key word. They are dangerous. They are scary. You should be alarmed, but do not be fatalistic about it and don't give in to despair because if you give in to despair, you're just going to give up. That's how democracies die. authoritarians like to do and this is when he quotes Ruth Ben-Jiat as saying part of the authoritarian playbook is to convince you that they are the party of destiny that they are strong that they are unstoppable to make you think you are weak and that they are much more powerful than they are so they want you to think it's inevitable they want you to think that Donald Trump and Donald Trump's dictatorship is our destiny. And what Greg Sargent is saying is no. And in part, it's like, could we just look around and notice that this has not been the story of the last four years? Yes, a lot of terrible things have happened, but we did mobilize. We did defeat Donald Trump. There are millions of people who have decided that they're not part of

this. And as you pointed out, A.B., in your story, the fact is there are lots of bits of good news. And I think that's part of that shtick of defeatism and Eeyoreism, like I'm being the realist, that everything is really, really terrible, actually then leads you to ignore some of these positive developments that you highlighted earlier this week. And they continue, don't they? Yeah, I mean, I think that these fake elector prosecutions are very critical, because it means that regular Americans who are not politically informed or addicted or engaged are stumbling into these jury rooms and making decisions about real facts and right and wrong. And this is likely to be more of a conversation next year because of Trump's trials, you know, than we have faith in right now,

which is that we think January 6th has been whitewashed and red-pilled and it's over, but there will be accountability and people will learn anew about just what these people plotted and executed and almost succeeded in. It's just going to be more in the conversation than it's been. And I think that we just think that his coup attempt and the insurrection just died and it's over. But it's a real reminder that there is a rule of law that is being followed and regular citizens are engaged on this issue and will be more so next

year. So that is heartening to me. And I think that you're right. This thing about inevitability means that we lose our power to persuade. We can't persuade MAGA voters, but we can persuade people who are disengaged right now and we can put our energy into that. This is really important. Please talk about it with your friends. Please read this Bob Kagan piece in the Washington Post. Please think about what it will be like months from now when Trump is the nominee and things roll into place. And just trying to spend our energy instead of, like you said, despairing into talking to people, engaging, sharing information, sending that Atlantic piece around. It's really important. There is time for people next year

to look at things in a new light. And that's what I think every time I hear about these fake electors being held accountable, that it's happening around the country in these, you know, in these rooms. It doesn't even probably get on the local news, but it's happening around the country in these, you know, in these rooms, it doesn't even probably get on the local news, but it is so consequential. And there are so many people who showed up at January 6th in MAGA families who got in a shit ton of trouble. Their communities know that, okay? They know what happened to these people. I think we tend to forget that when we look at, you know, what Musk said on Twitter last night, that the after effects and the consequences ripple out further than I think we remember when we're feeling despondent about Biden-Trump general

election matchups. I think that's a great point. One of the reasons why I keep reminding people that, you know, you are not the crazy ones is also this massive gaslighting is going on. And people need to understand that, you know, part of this sort of rolling insanity is to convince you that all Americans are, have gone crazy. And this, this sort of, you know, fake, you know, realism that if we have to understand that Americans are, you know, have become so delusional and so stupid and so crazy that they can't push back against this. I describe that as, okay, I'm going to go back a little bit theological. So the Catholic Church says that despair is in fact a cardinal sin because it denies God's mercy and ability to push back against evil. Believing that the American voters can't be trusted is kind of a sin against democracy because it denies any sort of faith or hope in democratic renewal that the

American voters are going to step back against this. Okay, we only have a few minutes left here. So person of the year, I am not upset about the Taylor Swift thing because I think Taylor Swift is cool. I think Time Magazine is absurd. I mean, have you read it lately? I mean, it is just, it used to be this serious journalistic publication that's decided, hey, let's turn ourselves into just sort of a vessel of star fucking. And if it was up to you, who would you have chosen? Keeping in mind that historically before in the four times, the person of the year is the most consequential person, not necessarily the best person, but the biggest change agent who has had the most significance in the last year. I know the case for Taylor Swift, but let's do better.

Who do you think should have been the person of the year? Taylor Swift. I got somebody. No, come on, come on. Taylor Swift. No, no, no, come on. No, I would have picked her. I want to hear your choice.

All of America wants to hear my choice. Yeah. Okay, A.B., now close your eyes for a second. Just imagine the cover. My eyes are closed. Find out. Here's the Time Magazine, 2023, the person of the year. You open the eyes and it is Jack Smith. I like it. I like it. Jack Smith. I like it. Jack Smith, the first prosecutor ever to go after a former president of the United States, the man of the moment who has decided

that he is going to vindicate our constitutional guardrails, he may not succeed. But just in terms of think back on what's happened in 2023, nobody saw Jack Smith coming necessarily in all of these indictments. So I'm going to double down on the Jack Smith should have been the person of the year. I like that. But the reason Taylor Swift is the person of the year is because she's not just a force for good. She is a person of consequence. And when the Federal Reserve can credit you in single handedly staving off a recession,

that actually is a force for good. And we in the anti-trump coalition if you add up all the you know the things that really matter that is one i am a swift virgin i don't follow her music i don't go to her concerts and i did go to that movie two months ago charlie and i was completely taken aback it is in 2023 the most simple wholesome uncomplicated she grabbed her crotch once in three hours she doesn't even dance the girls in the crowd are crying it is literally the most only positive experience and she is so influential in such a good way and i just don't know anyone else in our culture that's making a difference in

that many lives and actually helped us economically in a really tough time. Okay. I had to see the movie. This, by the way, this, this conversation here is why AB Stoddard will be invited to lots of holiday parties and why I never get invited.

I'd be in the corner going, no, no, no. It's Jack. It's Jack Smith. And you'd be talking about, Hey, no, this wonderful thing. A.B. Stoddard, it is great to talk with you

every morning. Helps with the post-debate hangovers. Really, really appreciate it. Talk to you soon. Thanks, Charlie. It's always a blast. And thank you all for listening to today's Bulwark Podcast. I'm Charlie Sykes. We will be tomorrow, and we'll do this all over again. Jack Smith. The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper and engineered and edited by Jason Brown.