The Bulwark Podcast - Adam Kinzinger: The Freak Prom

Episode Date: June 14, 2023

Trump likes to convey that he is invincible and has a massive army of people behind him. But he's scared and deflated. And many in the cult behind him are wanna-be celebs—or were the uncool kids in high school. Plus, the Freedom Caucus revolt in the House. Adam Kinzinger joins Charlie Sykes today. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm Charlie Sykes. It is June 14th, 2023, and Donald Trump has now been arrested more times than he has been elected. So let's just review where we're at here. I mean, Donald Trump was arrested and arraigned yesterday, came face to face with special counsel Jack Smith, and for some reason avoided eye contact with a man he's been calling a thug and a fascist. Didn't say anything during his court hearing yesterday. Afterwards, of course, doubled down on his threats to retaliate against Biden and was, I would say, rather aggressively unsubtle in rolling out his strategy to influence the trial,

including going to a Cuban restaurant and at least claiming that he was going to buy dinner for everybody. Meanwhile, another judge granted E. Jean Carroll's request to amend the $10 million complaint against Trump after Trump redefamed her during that CNN town hall. So much, by the way, for the party of law and order. J.D. Vance is saying he's going to block Biden's Department of Justice nominees in retaliation of the Trump indictment. And the Democrats are responding by self-deterring themselves. According to Politico, Joe Biden has ordered the DNC and his reelection campaign to remain silent about Trump's indictment. Meanwhile, we get a kind of a low energy scene from Bedminster. I just want to read you this New York Times account.

The surreal scene that awaited him at his private club in Bedminster, New Jersey was a blend somewhere between a summer garden party and a political victory party. There was an era of an almost post-arraignment celebration as women arrived in their finery, fuchsia and canary yellow dresses, embroidered Trump wares and heels, men's sported suits and red MAGA hats. Then Trump arrived, visibly deflated after pleading not guilty for the second time in three months. His dry and low energy resuscitation of his legal defense, even inflected with the usual references to Marxist communists and fascists, pleased his advisors, but drew a relatively muted response from a crowd that had

minutes earlier craned their phones for a shot of his motorcade. So who would have imagined that Donald Trump would be a buzzkill at his own party? So joining me to talk about this just incredible news cycle to win right now is our good friend Adam Kinzinger. Adam, how are you? Oh, I'm wonderful, Charlie. I mean, you know, the world is insane. So on the one hand, we have some accountability. That's good. But just the madness is maddening. So I'm okay. You know, it's summer. How are you? Pretty much the same. I mean, I thought it was interesting, you know, sitting watching some of the television coverage, that endless aerial, slow-moving Bronco TV coverage of Donald Trump's arrest and arraignment. And then, course the street circus, you know, complete with the Trump flags and a pig's head on a pike.

You step back and you realize, okay, guys, can we just take a deep breath here and recognize that this is kind of momentous. The former president of the United States is arrested and he is charged with serious crimes. And yet some of the reaction is extraordinary. Let me just read you, I want to bounce this off of you, because if you've spent so much time, you know, dealing with Donald Trump and raising the question about whether he would ever be held accountable, I thought it was interesting. John Kelly, his former chief of staff, tells the Washington Post, he's scared shitless. This is the way he compensates for that. He gives people the appearance he doesn't care by doing this. For the first time in his life, it looks like he's scared shitless. This is the way he compensates for that. He gives people the appearance he doesn't care by doing this. For the first time in his life, it looks like he's

being held accountable. Up until this point in life, it's like, I'm not going to pay you. Take me to court. He's never been held accountable before. So that's interesting that John Kelly thinks that he's scared shitless. What do you think? Well, yeah, I think so too. And I think the struggle is he is really good at putting up a front and that front? Well, yeah, I think so too. And I think the struggle is he is really good at putting up a front and that front is, you know, I've never been held accountable, which he hasn't. He puts up the front of, you know, I am invincible. I have this massive army of people behind me. And so I think, you know, when I see my former colleagues out there defending him, I mean, my natural tendency is to be like, oh, you know, he's going to escape justice again. But I mean, we still have a strong justice system. And I think

he recognizes, and if he has any lawyers worth their salt around him, they're telling him, you know, you're not going to escape from this. And, you know, I would advise any other client to plea bargain. I think there's some accuracy there. I think you can see the deflatedness. I think he wears his emotions on his sleeve. You certainly know how he's feeling. But I'm going to tell you, Charlie, the thing that still I just, I don't know. I don't even know how to describe it. I can't put English words to it, which is just this weird cultism around him.

You talk about the scene at Bedminster, and you know that these people that have never, I don't know if they just weren't cool in high school or what, and they show up and it's like Hollywood too. They think they're celebrities. You know, they're all getting their picture with Kimberly Guilfoyle. And it's like this whole weird culture. It's like prom for the insane. It's like prom for the weird. It's definitely prom for the insane. It's like prom for the weird. It is. It's definitely prom for the weird.

And it's like you see that and you see this like, I don't know, this worship, this hero worship. I guess, you know, you're the writer. You're the journalist. You're the one that could probably put better words to that phenomenon than I can. I'm running out. I feel that and I can't do it. I can't feel. I feel what that is emotionally.

I can't put words to it. I think a lot of other people have had the same experience. I mean, that, that prompt for the weird, I mean, it's one thing to, to have the Bernie Kerricks and the MyPillow guy and the Kimberly Guilfoyle show up. Mike Flynn apparently was there. I mean, we're talking about everybody from the original freak show, freak show, you know, one point out, fine. That's one thing. What's also mind blowing is the reaction of elected officials, including some of your former colleagues. I mean, at least Stefanik, who has been be clowning herself for some time, posts a picture of herself, you know, standing next to Donald Trump with a thumbs up. I mean, she must really, really want to be vice president or something. And then of course,

there's your old friend, Kevin McCarthy, who is reduced to defending Trump's behavior saying, well, I don't see anything problem in a problem with putting a classified documents in a bathroom. I mean, what's going on in their heads, in their heads when they turn off the light or when they look in the mirror, are they going, how long am I going to have to do this forever? So it's interesting, you know, two years ago, if we'd have talked about that, well, we did talk about this two years ago. I was very much of the belief that none of them believe what they're saying. You know, it is all just, it's an act that they have to do to get elected. I'm sure there's still some of that, but I'm now coming around to, not that I was wrong two years ago, but within the

last couple of years, I think many of these folks have, their internal monologue has convinced them that maybe not what Trump did is right, but that they have to stay with this team. You look at any rise of, and I'm not doing the comparison, but you look at the rise of the Nazi party, for instance, in Germany, and there were a lot of people that probably weren't Nazis, but eventually had to convince themselves of like, oh, well, here's how I make myself feel okay. And I think there's an extent of that now, which is like, I just got to fight for the team because Joe Biden is going to create transgender surgeries for everybody.

So therefore, there is no level of anything I'm not willing to accept. That's what's happening. And I don't understand it because I used to have respect for a lot of these people. I guess I do understand what the point you're making here, which is that, and I've described it as sometimes the fight is just about the fight. You get in the fight, you're in the trenches, and it's us versus them. And it really doesn't matter what the issue is. It doesn't matter what it's about. It doesn't matter what the facts are. It doesn't matter what the evidence is. You're in the fight, and you need to beat the other guy.

And so they're stuck in there, you know, and they're not going to pull out. I thought it was very interesting. I was on Morning Joe this morning. They played this clip from John Thune, who's the number two Republican in the Senate. I think you've probably heard it. And he very, in a very clear-eyed way, is just sort of walking through the fact that if Republicans want to win elections, they need to move away from the chaos and the drama of Donald Trump. Otherwise, you're going to be alienating the voters who are going to make a decision. And as long as this chaos and drama dominate Republican politics, they're going to continue alienating those voters. But the reality is that Republicans just can't quit this guy. And they appear to have made the decision that they're going to go through 2024 as the party of Donald Trump. I think we're way

past that point of thinking, when are they going to take the off ramp? Because they've had one off ramp after another. So you have to conclude that they don't want to take an off ramp at this point, even though they know it's terrible. Yeah, absolutely. And so like Chris Christie, so maybe we'll talk more about him. I didn't want to like Chris Christie because in 2012, you know, Obama was reelected largely because of Chris Christie with Hurricane Sandy. In 2016, Trump was elected because of Chris Christie. So I have some natural kind of, I don't like Chris Christie-ness, but I got to tell you, watching him the last week or so, I'm quickly becoming a Christie fan. I'm sorry. But one of the things he said, which just really stood out to me that really nobody else is even saying, is just like, how do you expect to run against Donald Trump without running against Donald Trump? These guys, they're just standing around praying to the Lord that Donald Trump collapses and they'll get all his scraps just like 2016, but not a single one of them.

You know, Pence will try to approach it a little bit like, oh, this is slightly concerning, but there's a double standard. I mean, it's, you know, a compliment sandwich. Like if I tell you you're fat, Charlie, I got to be like, you have nice hair, you're fat, you know, good shoes. It's like they have to do a compliment sandwich anytime they go after Trump. It's like Donald Trump's the greatest president ever. This is a little concerning, but there's a double standard with the DOJ. And Chris Christie's the only one that's out there. I mean, Asa Hutchinson too, but Christie's out there basically calling this out, and it's beautiful to watch. It is, and he's very, very effective. And I share your view with my disillusionment with Chris Christie, I think has been well documented, but he is doing something

that nobody else is doing, and he's doing it very, very effectively. And whether that will have an effect, I don't know. But let's just go back to this whole notion of Republicans and what they're about to do, because I don't know whether you had a chance to see it yet, but the Wall Street Journal had an editorial this morning, which sounded very different than the earlier one they had on the indictment, where they were kind of, you know, like, doesn't the Department of Justice know what forces they're releasing and blah, blah, blah? Well, today they have a piece called the self-destructive Donald Trump. And let me just read you a little bit of it. GOP primary voters can benefit from reading the latest Trump indictment and asking what it means for a second Trump term. The facts alleged show that Mr. Trump has again played into the hands of his enemies.

His actions were reckless, arrogant, and remarkably self-destructive, you think? This is the same Donald Trump they will get if they nominate him for a third time. And then it concludes, if Trump is the GOP nominee, he is unlikely to defeat Joe Biden. But if he did win, the document fiasco is what a second term would be like. He wouldn't be able to deliver the conservative policy victories the Republicans want or claim they want because he can't control himself. He'd be preoccupied with grievance and what he calls retribution. The best people won't work for him because they see how he mistreated so many loyalists in the first term. If Republicans really want to defeat Democrats, the press, and a hostile bureaucracy, they'll nominate a candidate who won't shrink from a fight, but will also be smart enough not to blunder into obvious traps. If Republicans nominate Mr. Trump

again, they won't own the libs. As the faddish saying goes, the libs will own them. Right? So, you think, Adam? Yeah, it's a very powerful thing. And not to keep lavishing Chris Christie, but he had made the point of like, there's this thing where, and you've heard all these people, they're like, you know, Donald Trump is such a great American that he has given up his wonderful paycheck to serve this country. You know, his family has sacrificed so much to serve America. And gosh, if we were only so lucky, you know, to have somebody like him again. The point is, this isn't about service to the country. This is about Donald Trump taking his little grievances, actually failing the conservative movement. As a conservative myself, I want somebody who's going to not turn off half the country and is going to make a compelling

argument for conservative policies. Donald Trump, even if he gets elected and forces through something, you know, like another Supreme Court justice or whatever, he is killing the conservative movement for the next generation. Because when we used to look like, in our minds at least, we used to look at compassionate people that actually cared about the future of this country, and big government takes opportunity away from people. We're actually turning the next generation to think that the conservative movement is a bunch of a-holes that frankly don't care about people that are minorities and don't care about people with any kind of issues. And that's what Donald Trump is. It's grievance politics, and it makes all those people that

have sat around and been angry for the last 30 years listening to Rush Limbaugh, it makes them feel good for a moment. Charlie, it's literally like doing drugs. I'm sure doing drugs feels really good, but you're destroying your body, and eventually you have to take that dopamine rush away to make yourself healthier. And the party is unwilling to do it because there are members of Congress that are unwilling to lead. And they're expecting somehow that the, you know, the people out there that you represent in your district are going to turn before you're willing to lead them away. And it's just not going to happen. Well, you know, this whole narrative that somehow,

you know, he is the conservative champion. Think about what conservatism used to be and all of the things that have been thrown by the wayside in the era of Trump. I mean, the first thing, of course, was, I don't know whether the first thing, where do you actually start? I mean, one of the first things was that character counts. Then, of course, it was American exceptionalism. Then it was free trade. Then it was our support for NATO, a robust foreign policy as leaders of the free world. But now, and, you know, particularly in the wake of January 6th, what happened to the party of law and order? What happened to the party that actually claimed to take national security seriously? Because a lot of what's going on right now, you know, has real consequences. Let's leave aside the electoral

consequences, real danger that are talking about defunding the FBI. They're talking about defunding the FBI. They're talking about retaliating against the Department of Justice. Donald Trump is pledging to dismantle the nation's intelligence system. You have leading Republicans who are basically saying it doesn't matter if some of the nation's most sensitive military secrets are mishandled. This from a party that for years dined out as taking all of those things, not just seriously, but deadly seriously. It is utter and complete anarchy. I mean, it's almost the party of anarchy, you know, which is like, there's no rules. And, you know, on a conservative side, let's just take the issue of abortion, right? I mean, by the way, I spent 12 years in my congressional career not talking much about abortion. And then, of course, I get out and it's the big issue. But let's just take that issue. Roe versus Wade was overturned. If you went back to what you call Earth One or 10 years ago and you told every pro-life conservative, hey, Roe versus Wade is

going to be overturned, what should you do after that? I think every one of them would say, well, we need to create a culture of life. We need to create a welcoming environment for women that are struggling with unwanted pregnancies. We need to have exceptions for rape, incest, life of the mother, and we need to have a reasonable cutoff date. What has happened instead is instead of celebrating that quote-unquote victory and trying to create a culture where, you know, women that are in tough positions can be successful, it's turned into cruelness. It's turned into, let's make it a six-week abortion ban. It's turned into some weirdos that are trying to ban friggin' birth control. And that's just what it is. You know, the cruelness is the point now. And I think even the hypocrisy is a point of pride for some of these people.

And the thing is, like, in all this, it's a lot of doom and gloom. But it's not going to work in the long run. Donald Trump may get the nomination, probably likely will. He's not going to win the general election. I don't think we should take that for granted. And to all my Democratic friends, the fact that now I'm a pro-lifer, there's probably a significant number of people listening like, oh my gosh, I thought he was different. No, I'm a conservative. We have to have this unnatural and uncomfortable alliance to support democracy,

which means we're going to have some differences among us if you truly believe Donald Trump is a threat. We can take him out and we can restore the Republican Party, but it's going to be restored, frankly, I think with fire at some point. I think they have to lose to come back. At some point, you know, in an off-election year, I hope that we're able to step back and say, maybe these things actually win. Maybe Elise Stefanik and Kevin McCarthy actually have a winning strategy, but it's still just fundamentally wrong. And it's fundamentally American. And it's fundamentally undermining the rule of law. I mean, the damage that's being done right now, I think is going to linger for decades. The delegitimizing of the justice system, of the rule of law, it feels like something from the, you know, before times to suggest that responsible officials, elected officials, do not engage in violent rhetoric,

do not encourage people to not have respect for the criminal justice system or the jury system. This whole notion, I mean, Josh Hawley saying, you know, Joe Biden is trying to throw Donald Trump in jail. Well, okay, first of all, it's not Joe Biden. And secondly, the only way that Donald Trump goes to jail is if after a trial by a jury of his peers, with all of the protections of the Constitution in due process, that he is convicted. And yet, rather than saying, let's let the process work out, let's trust the system, you have, you know, quote unquote, responsible people who are just throwing the kerosene on the fire. And you've commented on this. I mean, at the really extreme level, you have the Kerry

Lakes of the world talking about, you know, gun owners, you're going to have to come through us. You have, you know, various congressmen talking about, you know, defending the bridges. I mean, I'm going to interrupt myself here because you have talked about this. I mean, some of this violent rhetoric is so over the top and it's not coming from 4chan. It's not coming from some extreme nut job. It's coming from members of Congress. And you would think that you would have this moment of sobriety where people would realize, okay, this is a momentous moment. It's also a dangerous moment. Maybe the grownups in the room ought to encourage people to be responsible because this is a volatile situation and nothing happened in Miami yesterday. That does not mean that something's not going to happen going forward.

Well, and that's right. So here's the problem is, you know, when you were in school, you knew that if you punched somebody or if you got punched by somebody, there was an ultimate authority that could step in and rectify that situation, frankly, in life, because the police can come no matter what. The problem is in politics, everything that happens in politics is, because the police can come no matter what. The problem is in politics, everything that happens in politics is, for the most part, everything is, you know, protected First Amendment speech. And so typically, the thing that could create some kind of discipline

or, you know, stop things from happening is A, public shame, or B, you know, leadership, leadership with a big L, like somebody like McCarthy coming in and saying, hey, we don't talk about the 1 to 30K maps and holding our bridges because that's violence. The problem is the right-wing media ecosystem is either not willing to call it out because, frankly, these people actually create a lot of traffic to websites.

They create a lot of eyeballs for websites. They create a lot of eyeballs for viewers. So there's no accountability in the media that matters. CNN can go after, and MSNBC can go after these guys all day long, but none of their voters watch that. And so there's that. And then Kevin McCarthy, which if you'd have put this on my bingo card five or 10 years ago, you would have members of Congress threatening war and leadership would say nothing. I wouldn't have believed you, but that's where we're at too. So there is no leadership accountability. There's no media system accountability. And the problem is Clay Higgins may believe he's speaking metaphorically. By the way, I think he doesn't believe he's speaking metaphorically. I think he really means it. That guy's nuts, honestly.

I know him. But beyond that, he may think he's speaking metaphorically, but there are, of the 100 million people out there that are Trump supporters, some of them are going to take him very seriously. And we're going to have real big problems. And by the way, it only takes a few dozen people teaming up to create a really, really messy situation. value truth and vigorous yet civil debate about politics and a lot more. And every day we remind you folks, you are not the crazy ones. So why not head over to thebullwork.com and take a look around.

Every day we produce newsletters and podcasts that will help you make sense of our politics and keep your sanity intact. To get a daily dose of sanity in your inbox, why not try a Bulwark Plus membership free for the next 30 days? To claim this offer, go to thebulwark.com slash charlie. That's thebulwark.com forward slash charlie. We're going to get through this together. I promise. For Donald Trump, this has really become a binary future, you know, that he either becomes president or perhaps he goes to jail. And that would also suggest that he's going to be desperate. And so what would he be willing to do? What would Donald Trump be willing to do if he thought he

was going to go down? I think the one thing we've learned about Donald Trump is that he is prepared to burn everything down. From a political point of view, he's prepared to burn the Republican party down. But I mean something far worse than that. It's like, what would he be willing to do? You know, would he call upon, you know, the darkest forces in the country to take some violent action? We've lived through January 6th. It's naive in the wake of January 6th. So let's talk about January 6th a little bit. I mean, you spent much of your professional life recently doing all of this. So your thoughts right now, you've watched him now make two perp walks, and yet he still has not been held accountable for

what he did on January 6th, his attempts to overturn the election, to lie about the election, and to incite a rebellion against Congress. Tell me what you're thinking right now, what you're watching, what you're waiting for, what you hope for. It's very disappointing because like the documents case is serious, and I'm not in any way pushing that aside, and I think that should be charged. It's very serious. But January 6th, to me, is a much bigger threat. And I don't know if it was a fake quote or if it was real, but recently Fannie Willis down in Georgia said she's holding off on her case until the feds are done. I don't know if that means she's still going to show an indictment or just going to wait. You know, that was some version of election fraud accountability.

I was talking to a few folks I know that are CNN contributors that, you know, don't think now Jack Smith and the DOJ brings anything forward on January 6th. Like this is kind of their out to be able to bring this case forward. Really? That's their theory. I hope they're wrong. That would be so disappointing. It would be very. If you would have seen me here because I slumped noticeably. Well, I felt the same way because it's like the documents case is serious and I'm not minimizing that, but the threat to our democracy was January 6th. And these folks' theories, these legal experts' theories were, look, DOJ is going to have a hard time taking sedition or conspiracy or whatever up to the president. This is a version of accountability.

They can use this as an excuse, like we can't try. I don't know. And we may be surprised. I like you, Charlie, if they don't go after Donald Trump for January 6th or even the tier under him, even if we go after like the tier under him, I'll be very disappointed. Now, if Mark Meadows is cooperating, you know, he's probably not doing much cooperation on the documents case. It's probably January 6th. So we still may be surprised. But I was as disappointed as you were to hear these people's theories. Well, they are just theories, and we don't know.

What we do know is that it would be a mistake to underestimate Jack Smith. I mean, I think that Jack Smith was very, very aggressive. He also laid it out in a very, very effective way. I was impressed with him. Now, the question is, can you handle two massive pieces of litigation at the same time? My one concern is, at some point, how much bandwidth does the special counsel have? Because this Mar-a-Lago case is huge. The January 6th case is even more momentous and even larger.

Would they be able to handle both of them? Also, knowing what the blowback is, is he willing to do that? One of the things that Donald Trump does in terms of strategy, I think, you know, is, and again, there's nothing subtle about Donald Trump's strategy. He wants to create as much chaos, as much a blowback. He wants to raise the opportunity cost for the Department of Justice to act as high as possible to intimidate them, to push them back. But I agree with you. I think that it would be, from the point of view of history, the failure to follow up on your work on the January 6th committee by acting on the criminal referrals, I think will be seen as a huge dereliction of duty,

a huge misopportunity. Yeah, I really do too. And, you know, again, even if they don't, and I personally think, you know, Donald, even if they don't, and I personally think, you know, Donald Trump should be held accountable for January 6th, but let's say they, you know, make the decision that we can't go after Trump. There is a tier two that certainly, you know, the Eastmans or whatever that you need to go after to make it clear to people that, you know, because what we're basically saying right now is an attempted coup is okay as long as it doesn't succeed. By the way, if it succeeds, you're in charge, so you have no negative reason to attempt a coup because either it fails or it succeeds and you're in charge. And I just think if we think the precedent is not going to be repeated again or we, you know, he's capable of doing so many things, as you were talking about, you know, going back to, will he incite violence?

If the question, well, Donald Trump is capable of some really bad things we've seen, but not that. Like, repeat that in your mind, because there's not been a single thing that Donald Trump has actually stopped short of out of decency, or out of concern for the country. And that's why it's so essential for Republicans and Democrats and independents. And it's not going to be through the no labels, third party thing, but for all of us to just for a little bit, put aside our differences. And I know that there are some people that, gee, they could just never sit at the same dinner table as somebody that's a conservative or somebody that's a moderate or somebody that's a liberal. I get it, but the question is, do you want to keep being outraged over issues or do you

want to fight for survival? And at this moment, we have to fight to survive in this country for democracy to survive, and then we can get back to having our differences again. That's what I'm trying to passionately say to people is just, you know, if you're sitting around outraged about somebody's political belief and unwilling to, you know, kind of join forces with that person, I would have to argue that maybe you don't recognize the real threat to democracy. Okay, so obviously I know what you're talking about here, which is there are people who will talk about Donald Trump being an existential threat and, you know, that democracy is on the line or liberal constitutional democracy is on the line and then proceed to behave politically as if it's

not, you know, like, okay, yes, there's an existential threat, but if you disagree with me on the forgiveness of student loans, or if you disagree with me on what you think marginal tax rates will be, or an educational policy or on transgender policy, then we can't trust you. We can't work with you. And there's a whole chorus out there that essentially says, no, in order for you to be aligned with us on this, you need to be aligned with us on everything. So Donald Trump is either an existential threat that is unique or he's not. And I think people have to decide. And this is also one of the reasons why I am willing to swallow a lot of

baggage in the past with people like, for example, Chris Christie and say, if you're willing to be an ally right now, more power to you. I am willing to make this alliance with you. At least for now, it is this difference between a heart attack and cancer they are both going to kill you but the heart attack might kill you today and so let's deal with this let's not pretend there's not a cancer out there we will deal with that in the future but the heart attack is the immediate problem and i don't care who the paramedic is or who the paramedic voted for two years ago or four years ago or what he said or what bumper stickers on his car if he or she is is there with the paddles, let's go. You know what I'm saying?

I mean, it's true. And it's funny because it's, you know, none of us are sinless besides maybe like you and Tim Miller that saw the light before any of us. But, you know, I look at it this way, like, OK, I have a lot of grudge against Chris Christie, but then I'm like, wait, look, but I was I was never really a Trump supporter, but I kind of went along with it because I didn't want to fight it early on. So I've got sin there, and Chris Christie did, and that's where we all have to kind of come together. That's what I'm trying to say to people is, look, you're not going to solve the abortion issue. You're not going to solve the issue of transgender. You're not going to solve this stuff in the next couple of years, but in the next couple of years, what will be determined is,

does democracy have a place in this country? Or is this going to turn into not necessarily a dictatorship, but just a constant thing of power politics struggle in which truth only matters based on what your opinion is? Or are we going to get back to having like a basic standard of decency? And that's what I want. And I think that's what probably the vast majority of people that listen to this, by the way, growing in ratings podcast, you're in the very top almost now, but that's what people want to hear. And I think they're the people that understand the alliance of that. And it's a big battle. I want to get to Kevin McCarthy and his problems in the house with your former colleagues.

And just one more question, though, on the Trump case. It does seem that it's possible that pardoning Donald Trump will now become a litmus test in the Republican primary. I mean, this has happened pretty quickly. You have Vivek Ramaswamy, who is out basically demanding that all all candidates pledge that if they are elected president to pardon him. And there's Nikki Haley, who has never met a waffle that she did not want to outwaffle. She's now saying, yes, he was he was reckless and irresponsible and it was dangerous. But if she's elected president, it would be good for the country to pardon Donald Trump. So are we looking at that now as a litmus test that you're going to ask, you know, that the Republican Party is either going to nominate Donald Trump or somebody who is going to pardon Donald Trump? Of course.

And the funny thing is, it's either going to be this. It's like, so the Ramashwami, this guy's nuts, by the way. Obviously, I don't even know who he is. He just came out of nowhere. But there's going to be the, we need to pardon Donald Trump because he's innocent and he's amazing. And then there's going to be the Mike Pence's that are like, we need to pardon Donald Trump to heal the country. It's kind of that compliment sandwich thing where it's like, I'm not approving it, but we need to heal the country. Yes, Charlie, this is, except for Chris Christie and Hutchinson, this is going to be the new litmus test.

A hundred percent. And by the way, I think by the end of this primary, everybody's going to be begging to just hoist Donald Trump upon their shoulders into the debate stage to show how loyal they are to him. We should note, though, that there are some Republicans willing to break ranks. We talked about Chris Christie. Mike Pompeo said yesterday, if the allegations are true, President Trump had classified documents where he shouldn't have had them. And then when given the opportunity to return them, he chose not to do that for whatever reason that is inconsistent with protecting

America's soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines. And if the allegations are true, some of these were pretty serious, important documents. Okay. That's pretty strong for Mike Pompeo. That's great. I hadn't heard that, but that's great. It's good to see him kind of coming back. Mike Pence kind of hedging, having read the indictment, these are very serious allegations and I cannot defend what is alleged, he tells the Wall Street Journal, but the president is entitled to his day in court. Okay, so that's a hedge. Then I want you to talk to me about this one. Ken Buck, who is a flaming guy from, you know, Colorado, Republican congressman from Colorado, former prosecutor, House Freedom Caucus member

says that if Trump is convicted, I certainly won't support a convicted felon for the White House. 50-50. Don Bacon, Republican from Nebraska. I think it's obvious what the president did was wrong. I just think the emperor has no clothes. We need to have Republicans stand up and say that. Okay. Yeah, that's pretty good. Yeah. At least some of them. Okay, so let's talk for a moment about what's going on with Kevin McCarthy and this revolt of the Taliban 20, who brought the House of Representatives to a grinding halt when they voted against the rules. I think there was that brief moment when everybody was going, well, Kevin McCarthy, he survived all this.

Kevin McCarthy, stronger than we thought. Kevin McCarthy was more successful. And where is Kevin McCarthy right now? What's going on? Wow. I mean, so I know when you talk about a rule, it's inside baseball, but let me just explain that. I voted maybe a couple of times for something called like a motion to recommit when we were in the majority. And that's, you like kind of violate all things with your party. It's a big deal. But even that is not a rule. A rule is basically saying, hey, we own the floor.

We're in the majority. Vote for this thing. So this was a huge deal for them to do this. And by the way, to do it on their own bill, which is the stupidest thing. The thing that the Taliban 20, the Freedom Club, I call them the Freedom Club, the thing they know is that there is no downside to doing what they're going to do because the moderates are unwilling to use the same tactics. The moderates are unwilling to say, fine, we're going to tank every Freedom Club bill that comes

to the floor in the same way because, you know, moderates, which I was one there, we just want this stuff to work. We want to work together as a team and go along, get along. So these people know, the Matt Gaetz's, et cetera, know, the more they whine, the more attention they can get, and the more people are going to have to come smile at them. So Kevin is in a really bad place. And the thing I have started to recognize, which I didn't really see, is that this is really a proxy fight between Kevin and Scalise.

So I think Scalise... Yes. So Scalise is, if you look at his statements, he's kind of like, you know, I don't know, this surprised us. McCarthy's saying things like, well, this went to the floor and we should have known what was going to happen on the floor, which is going after the majority leader who brings this stuff to the floor. It's slightly reminiscent of the Boehner-Kantor thing from back in 2010, just a lot more childish. So I think there's a bit of a proxy fight there. And Kevin has no ability to do anything. And so what he does, I'm going to play the scene for you, he calls in the Taliban 20 into his office. And instead of sitting them down like Boehner would

do and taking a drag of his cigarette and saying, you know, quit being assholes. He instead looks at them and smiles and asks how their kids are doing. And boy, those cubs are great. You know, how do we get you on board here? And there's no downside for these people to not be terrorists. They're not afraid of him. No fear. There's no fear. And he really has nothing to make them afraid of. But that's because he's built a reputation as a smiley McGee and not like a Boehner. So what do they want? They're using this very rarely used weapon to bring Kevin McCarthy to his knees because they want what and they will do what with it? I think it's two things. There's probably been a lot of stuff promised in that speaker vote that Kevin is unable to follow through on, but nobody's going to talk about publicly what that is.

So I think that's one of the things. I also think it's like if you're walking your dog and all of a sudden you give the dog a yank of the chain just to remind the dog who's in charge, that's what's happening. It's yanking the chain so Kevin McCarthy heals and quits trying to play little games with him when he wants to prevent complete disaster.

What is it they want? More investigations? What do they want? Bigger spending cuts? More tax cuts? They want to defund the Department of Justice? I mean, there's got to be some ask, right? I think it's all different for all of them. Yeah, I think it's, look, think of them in terms of, it's almost confederacy, not with the slaves and the racism, but in this idea that the federal government is actually the enemy. And that's what a lot of these folks think. The federal government is in and of itself a bad entity. And so everything they want is either less spending or they want less authority or they want to defund this. It is their way, whether they consciously realize it or not, it's their way of, in essence, denigrating or tearing apart the federal government.

Honestly, I think that's what it is. And I think there's half of them are in this simply for the performance art to go raise money and to be famous. Look at Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert. All they want to do is raise money and be famous. And if being like a super moderate would have done that for him, they'd be the most super moderates ever. You reminded me of something when you conjured up that scene of John Boehner,

the former speaker, you know, sitting in his office, you know, smoking his cigarette and talking to the junior members of his caucus, because he tells the story when he realized that the power structure of the Republican Party had changed. It was when Michelle Bachman, who was, you know, one of the early sort of loons, you know, came in and demanded some key committee assignment, which of course was absurd. And she said, well, I'm going to go and I'm going to, you know, complain about you to the host on Fox News. And then he realized, okay, the entertainment wing of the Republican Party now has more clout than even the Speaker of the House of Representatives. And that is the reality. And so what I've been waiting for is after that deal to not tank the

U.S. economy, what would the entertainment wing, what would the grassroots of the Republican Party do? Because there's really nothing in the DNA of that ecosystem that likes the idea that Republicans voted with Democrats, that Kevin McCarthy cut a deal with Joe Biden, that there was this big compromise. You have an entire infrastructure that's built on stoking outrage, right? And saying, you've been betrayed. These people are not pure enough. And so even though the Taliban 20 may, there may be a small number of them, they know that from the grassroots point of view, from getting the clicks and the contributions, that time is on their side and that Kevin McCarthy

might be able to pull this off once, but will he ever be able to do it twice, Adam? The next time it happens, what's going to happen? Yeah, it's a great question. And that's something I don't know because honestly, I'll give him credit. I really thought we were going to actually see what a debt default looked like. I did too. I agree. honestly, I'll give him credit. I really thought we were going to actually see what a debt default looked like. I did too. I agree. Yeah, I was pleasantly surprised. And I actually give Kevin McCarthy a lot of props for taking that risk, even though that's

a risk every other speaker would have taken up until Earth 2.0. So I give him credit for that. But yeah, in terms of the future, look, I lived through this where there's always a comp, you know, I voted for the infrastructure. I was fairly moderate on those things. I voted for a lot of the future, look, I've lived through this where there's always a comp, you know, I voted for the infrastructure. I was fairly moderate on those things. I voted for a lot of the compromises. And, you know, I'd always get about two weeks of everybody saying, you're dead. You're not going to survive your primary.

And I kick their butts every frigging primary. So I don't know if this is one of those or what. But, you know, at some point, I fear that there's going to be something that burns hard enough that the American people are going to be like, oh, wait, okay, that's too much. And I fear that, but the GOP is playing with a lot of fire right now. And for me, for such a party that has such an amazing history, Ronald Reagan, I mean, I was a six-year-old walking around putting in signs for Republican candidates. What a nerd.

But I actually believed in it at six years old. It's so disheart for Republican candidates. What a nerd. But I actually believed in it at six years old. It's so disheartening to see what it's become. And that's why we have to fight so hard for it. Adam Kinsey, of course, former congressman from Illinois and member of the Select Committee on January 6. He's a co-founder of Country First, which is backing pro-democracy candidates. And he is also a senior political commentator for CNN. And we're going to have to talk about this. Has a new book coming out this fall, Renegade, My Life and Faith,

the Military and Defending America from Trump's Attack on Democracy. Is that coming out in September, Adam? It's coming out in October. Yeah, so. Coming out in October. I cannot wait. Thanks for coming back on the podcast.

We have to get you on more often. Anytime, man. Take care. And thank you all for listening to today's Bulwark Podcast. I cannot wait. Thanks for coming back on the podcast. We have to get you on more often. Anytime, man. Take care. And thank you all for listening to today's Bulwark Podcast. I'm Charlie Sykes. We will be back tomorrow, and we'll do this all over again. The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper and engineered and edited by Jason Brown.