The Bulwark Podcast - Adam Kinzinger: We Can’t Be Intimidated

Episode Date: September 26, 2025

President Trump’s quest for revenge escalates, as a grand jury indicts former FBI Director James Comey days after Trump forced out a prosecutor who refused to bring charges against his political enemies. Trump, meanwhile, is cheerleading the indictment and publicly encouraging prosecutors to go after more Democrats and left-leaning organizations. Adam Kinzinger joins Tim Miller to talk about the merits of the indictment, why we can’t afford to be intimidated by it and what comes next. They also discuss why Pete Hegseth called generals to a mysterious meeting, how the administration released the military record of New Jersey’s Democratic candidate for governor to her political opponent and how Democrats need to play the fight over a looming government shutdown. Show Notes: Adam Kinzinger Substack Bulwark Live in DC (10/8) and NYC (10/11) with Sarah, Tim and JVL are on sale now at TheBulwark.com/events. NEW show added to Toronto schedule: Bulwark Live Q&A Matinee show on Saturday, September 27 —tickets are on sale now, here. Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan when you go to joindeleteme.com/BULWARK and use promo code BULWARK at checkout.

Hello and welcome to the Bullard podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. I've had some feedback from listeners. They've been getting a little bit too much spinach from me lately on the pod. Now, I love spinach, okay? I like collards, you know. I like kale. I'm a lib like that.

But I also like to listen to. of feedback. And so I started to think, we need some candy. We need some eye candy. And so I asked today's guest to come on in a tank top. He did not do that, unfortunately. He's a former U.S. He's a former member of the U.S. House of Representatives. He's a veteran. He's a founder of country first. You can find him on substack. It's my man, Adam Kinziger. Why are you, why do you have sleeves on it? I know. I'm sorry about it, but I give you a little something there. Oh, yeah. Okay. It was an Instagram post that was going around. I think that's why you came to mind there's an Instagram post I received a couple texts from some gays and I was like I don't know what

he's up to in Croatia it happens it happens anyway all right we've got and we've got at some level scary we're to talk about whether we should treat it like it's scary though in a little bit but we have certainly outrageous news out of Washington which is former podcast Jim Comey was indicted last night it was a revenge indictment that comes after the firing of Comey's daughter from DOJ, and then the firing of the U.S. attorney who refused to prosecute Comey. The grand jury approved two of the three counts. It's based on a 2020 congressional testimony about the Russia probe. Comey said that he did not authorize someone at FBI to be an anonymous source.

Then I guess there's some other testimony that he had authorized somebody to be an anonymous source with the media. So that's it. That's the big crime that we're going for there. The statute of limitations ran out on Monday. So they jammed that baby through with a new. hackish prosecutor, and this is the country we're in now. If Donald Trump doesn't like you, they're just going to try to jam indictments against you.

What do you make of all that, Adam? Yeah, I mean, so first of all, let's take the actual thing he said. So let's say Comey had actually authorized him to be an anonymous source. Be clear, there's nothing illegal about that. This whole argument is that Comey did, but he told Ted Cruz, I think, that he didn't. Lie and Ted. I thought it was Trump to call him lie in Ted. Why you care that much that somebody would tell a lie to lie in Ted, but okay.

Well, and especially a paragon of truth like Donald Trump, right? This just this bastion of holiness and truth. And it's, look, this is, if we started prosecuting everybody that's told a white lie or a red lie to Congress, I mean, seriously, there'd be nothing else in the Justice Department. So we're going to get to that. This is clearly, you know, meant to intimidate. I think there is a 0.1% chance that he actually gets, you know, criminally found guilty for this. everything I understand from people that understand law stuff, they're like, proving perjury is

damn near impossible because you have to prove intent and how do you prove intent. But this is the point. The point is simply to try to intimidate. And, you know, I think James Comey put out a statement that was basically like, we're not going to be intimidated. I thought it was good. And this is the posture that I think people that are targets of this administration need to take is instead of going away and being quiet and taking that legal advice. It's actually in public fighting back, exactly what Donald Trump did, by the way. And so we'll see. You know, look, it's just, this is purely to intimidate. I think Donald Trump's own tweets, not just the one he put out where he's like, dear Pam Bondi, right? There have been one since where it's very clear this is done

for political purposes. And the fact that they only got two out of three of the charges agreed to by the grand jury. It is really, really hard to get a grand jury to not agree to some charge. I've testified in front of one before. You literally have a captive audience for the prosecutor. The defense has no voice. Even if you're testifying to the grand jury, you can't take your lawyer in there. It is completely set up to benefit the prosecution. And only this administration's DOJ has failed to get a number of indictments, including one of them here. So this is a mess. It's a joke. It's a travesty. And I think there's two count twos, actually. it's that much it's that sloppy they also failed to get an indictment for the sandwich man so you know

they have a lot of fails the sandwich bomber you mentioned Comey's statement it was so just resolute and bulwarkish I feel like I'm obligated to play it in its entirety my family and I have known for years that there are costs to standing up to Donald Trump but we couldn't imagine ourselves living any other way we will not live on our knees, and you shouldn't either. Somebody that I love dearly recently said that fear is the tool of a tyrant, and she's right, but I'm not afraid, and I hope you're not either. I hope instead you are engaged, you are paying attention, and you will vote like your beloved country depends upon it, which it does. My heart is broken for the Department of Justice, but I have great confidence in the federal judicial system, and I'm innocent.

So let's have a trial and keep the faith. It's important that he said that. I was thinking about this yesterday, and we emailed and said, you know, I don't expect him to want to come up on the podcast, but he's been on before. I more than welcome to come on. We'd love to hear him talk. And as I was thinking about pitching him, I was like, I don't know, probably in this sort of situation, a lot of folks, their lawyers tell you to say, nothing, right? And just kind of ride it out. Like, that's the best, you can only get yourself in trouble by saying stuff. And so I thought it showed some important backbone that he did

deliver that 60 second statement that was just saying, fear is the tool of a tyrant. I'm not afraid. We're going to fight it. You should fight it. I like that part of it too. You should fight as well. Yeah, because I think what it shows is, look, if, if, and I get it, I'm not going to question anybody's legal advice because once you actually kind of enter the justice system, you have to do what's best for you, your finances and your family. But when you become quiet, it appears to everybody else, to the other 300 million people live in this country, that Donald Trump or the Justice Department has won, they have silenced you, and they can go on to the next victim.

Whereas if you stand firm and make a statement, that doesn't mean Comey has to go do every news thing he can. But if you make a statement and say, I'm not backing down, I'm not intimidated, I feel like more of that, more of those gives me. backbone to other people that are going to face this. It's like the Jimmy Kimmel situation, right? The fact that everybody stood with him, the fact that he came out basically with the gloves off on his day of return, that is stiffening the spine of people to resist because we've seen for nine months, Tim, law firms and universities and corporations and everybody else

absolutely bow and capitulate. And it's nice to see somebody not do that. Yeah, it is. And I think they're going to be more coming. I mean, Trump wants more of these indictments. There's a lot of a lot of smoke around the fact that a Bolton indictment is coming soon. And so, you know, they're going to keep going after these guys. Luckily, like the grand juries are actually the first line of resistance here in a couple of cases, but we expect more. You mentioned that, you know, if we were going around prosecuting everybody for telling lies to Congress, that would be a very busy Justice Department. You've got to be kind of selective on which one of those you want to pick. I think that's true, particularly this administration. They're all lying quite a bit

to Congress. But I wanted to play just one particular case because it's so analogous to what they're alleging Comey did. This is the current FBI director, Comey's old job, Cash Patel. This was him at his confirmation hearing. Cory Booker is asking him about firings at the FBI. Let's listen. Are you aware of any plans or discussions to punish in any way, including termination, FBI agents or personnel associated with Trump investigations? I'm not aware of that, Senator. I'm not aware of that.

He didn't even say that he was not involved in it or not planning it. He said he's not aware of it. Kyle Serafin, Will Summer, my colleague wrote a great profile of disguise. Pretty conservative. I called him MAGA on social media. He objected to that. So in the interest of candor, his accuracy, Kyle Serafin, quite conservative, based on social media posts, doesn't self-identify as MAGA.

Former FBI guy doesn't like cash. know, personal reasons, but he posted these text messages from 20 days before this where a bunch of guys are talking about firing people from the Bureau who are anti-Trump. One person does get fired. Cash replies, I'm a man of my word during that discussion. Wow. There's a lawsuit out there from the Driz and others who also indicate the cash was plotting to fire people. So, I mean, I don't know. I mean, that A, I mean, that's just, I mean, it's clear hypocrisy. That's clear perjury. And then I guess there's a sub-question of what happens now. I mean, you know, if the Democrats ever get back in power, does cash get indicted?

Yes. I'm glad you bring that up because I have, until very recently been, you know, I've been of kind of two minds. And I let the one avail. There's a squishy part of Kinsinger that's like, we want to bring the norms back. I get it. I have got the two wolves inside me as well. You know, it's like the whole Abe Lincoln, like, you know, malice against none. But actually, as I look back on it's like maybe they actually should have hung some of these Confederate generals.

Maybe malice for a few. How about malice for a few? Maybe malice for a few. There should have been some accountability because the Confederacy lived on, right? So this is where I'm kind of going to now, which is, look, I don't think that a Democratic administration should come in and be like anybody that was ever associated with Donald Trump is going to jail. But if somebody violated the Constitution, if somebody who is, you know, clearly perjured themselves and is advocating going after somebody else for perjuring themselves because of the politics, or if, you know, any number of things like that, let's say a country that, I don't know, you know, maybe donates a jumbo jet to the president, you know, there's some illegality there, whatever, all of that needs to be prosecuted because I think the Democrats have got to come in and make it very clear that this is not acceptable. Because what's going to happen is if they come in and say like, okay, we forgive again, you know, there's going to be another Trump where if MAGA continues,

they're going to come in and keep locking folks up. I'm worried about the cycle, right? Obviously, you see that in the Central America, for instance, but I also realize this is so far egregious, a foul of the Constitution that there's got to be some accountability. Cash Patel would be number one. And by the way, if Cash thinks he's going to have a job in the FBI longer than three years, he's absolutely joking himself because he'll be the first guy fired, I think. God willing. Delete Me makes it easy, quick and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable.

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Now you got a message this morning. I mentioned some of the, you know, not enthusiastic feedback from some of the listeners lately. But I also get great messages from listeners. I love to hear from listeners. I got one this morning. And the guy makes a good point. And he's like, next time, Kinsinger's on, maybe you should ask him about this. And I was like, hey, Kinziger's on today.

Little do you know. It's a little tongue in cheek. It's a little cheeky, but it's also true. And I think maybe something that we should be elevating. If they're going to go after Comey for a whatever, the accusation here is that he wasn't fully truthful in his testimony about the, about the Russia investigation, it's notable that they're not going after anybody for the biggest crime of the century, isn't it? I mean, the 2020 election fraud, and the election was stolen

from Donald Trump. It was fraud. Somebody perpetrated that fraud. We haven't figured out who it is yet. And you would think that Attorney General Pam Bondi and the FBI would be investigating that. Trump brings it up all the time that the election was stolen from them. And now that they have the full Department of Justice at their disposal. It's pretty noteworthy that they haven't done that. I'm wondering where Pam Bondi is on that investigation. Yeah, I don't know. I'm surprised. And, you know, I could mention Epstein, of course. They have an opportunity to do something about that. Yeah. Look, I would at least investigate Nancy Pelosi, who launched an insurrection to keep Donald Trump as president or something, right? That's so nuts. Yeah. And then Donald Trump,

obviously, was very angry because Pelosi and the mayor didn't accept his 10,000 national guard troops that somehow they have control over, but, oh, wait, actually, obviously the president has control over him because he's just deployed him into D.C. So actually, Pelosi and the mayor have no control. Yeah, absolutely. What about all the feds that were there on January 6th? Stoking the insurrection? Who ordered them? The fedsurrection. Who ordered the feds to do that? John Solomon, should be on that, I would think. Yes, yes, you would think so. Molly Hemingway, has Molly Hemingway, she's got to be pretty upset that the administration hasn't addressed this. Who's the little short goblin dude with shaved head that likes

the general, whatever his name is. You know who I'm talking about? There's so many goblin looking dudes. There's so many small dick short gill guys that are angry. It's hard to I need a little bit more of a description there. Yeah, it's okay. Ivan something, right? Oh yeah, Ivan Reiklin. Yeah, the Maga Marauder.

He's the one that like tries to intimidate people. He's five foot zero. And like he talks about the Fed'surrection. So Ivan, man, come on, dude. Find the bad guys. I was like, I don't know what you guys are doing, but instead you're going after. I met him at a MAGA event. He was like a smurf. I didn't realize it was the marauder until afterwards when someone told me, he was like,

you know that you were just talking to Ivan Rakeland. I was like, that wee little guy? Yeah. And he oozes just douchebaggery. I mean, the guy is just like, you look at him. He was like a lieutenant colonel in the, you know, special forces. So I give him credit for that. And then he just became a complete little weaner clown.

So, but they're all like that, man. This is, this is their opportunity. They were like, and I don't think anybody should be mean to. anybody in high school we all were mean or were mean against in high school these are all the kids that were super bullied and held on to that stephen miller's like number one of that right somebody somebody with a tan must have done something to him because he's taking that out and and that's what you see right now is just a bunch of people that are trying to get revenge and they're men these are adult men and women but these are men who are just like you know i don't know it's like the whole

Hagsah thing. It's just crazy. I want to go to Higseh thing. I just want to play really quick this audio. So Lindsay Halligan is this woman that has taken this job. And I mean, sometimes it's kind of like, we're going to do another Trump Hapagga hypocrisy story. I mean, this isn't even

Dog Bites Man. It's like Dog Licks Man type of story. But I think it's interesting we're showing because A, she should have accountability for this. I mean, literally multiple people have quit over not filing this indictment. One guy was pushed out. Comey's son-in-law worked in this in the Eastern District of Virginia.

He resigned yesterday, and she has been the one to do this. So she was on Jesse Wander's show. Of course. Not exactly a dynamic speaker, I don't think. And I don't know. It's kind of a frozen face a little bit for folks on YouTube they can see this. I'm just trying to paint the picture for the audio crowd. I want to list.

This was her following one of the Trump indictments for crimes he actually committed a couple years ago. That means it's up to the sitting president to ensure that our criminal system does not unravel into retaliatory or political prosecutions of former president and other government officials. Pretty straightforward. She was pretty clear on that. Yeah, it's funny how that works. And it's funny how the whole MAGA thing was built on this idea that the DOJ is being politicized against their opponents, which, by the way, I don't believe. Now, there may have been some like kind of, you know, obviously people are looking at it going to can't overthrow the government, so let's go after

them. And they're so against it that they're the ones that are going to go and turn and do this. You know, it was interesting because I had, I was on CNN the other day and we were talking about the DOJ. And, you know, there's all this conversation about the Republican DOJ or the Democratic DOJ. And I made the point, I said, five or eight years ago, it was just the DOJ. Nobody gave a second thought to whether it was a Republican or a Democratic administration. And I said, now it is. And it's not because the Democrats and the Republicans share the blame on it. it. And same with the FBI. The Republicans made the FBI the enemy. They made the DOJ the enemy. And then they've taken over the DOJ and FBI and have discredited both organizations among Democrats now. So now you

went from 100% of the country trusting it to 50% to now 0%. And all of that is because of the Republican party. They've convinced their own base, they're untrustworthy. And then all of a sudden they take it over and convince Democrats that what they're actually doing is using it for politics. which they are. And they're going to do the same thing to the Pentagon. And this is the point is the party that I used to believe actually cared about norms and actually believed in this stuff is corrosive, is destructive, and obviously is going to be, go down in history as an enemy of good governance for sure. You know what this sparks? You said I went from 100% to 50% to zero. Actually, like in modern times, you know, I'm sure you go back to Watergate and there

than other examples of corrupt justice departments in this country, of course. But modern times, like in our lifetime in the 90s when the Clinton DOJ was going after kind of the far right you know groups like at Ruby Ridge and like you know these militia type groups that rhetoric was kind of common in like those militia-ish circles right like you go I can watch documentaries about like from the Idaho Montana militias or the Waco right like they did do that and say like oh this is the Clinton Justice Department targeting us for our what our faith or our values but like The elected Republicans weren't saying that. Right.

I mean, maybe there was like a couple, a handful of them. You know, I'm sure if we went back through the archives, there'd be a handful of Republican-elect officials that did that. But, like, is now essentially, like, the rhetoric that was being advanced by these far-right militia groups in the 90s is the rhetoric that is advanced by like the entire leadership of the Republican Party. That's a pretty noteworthy development. And it's an important point, which is, look, no matter how much like, I always use

the example of you have a little fire, like a little campfire. And that campfire is very useful unless it goes out of control. And as politicians, you know, you can stoke a little anger and you sometimes use that. Like we have to go after Al-Qaeda, right? Or we have to go after X, Y, and Z. But the president's job and leaders' jobs are to make sure that it doesn't spread. And instead now, you have leaders, you know, the president of the United States and the second tier leaders, like the politicians that are actively trying to spread this fire. This is the first time I ever remember this, probably since the Civil War. It's first time in our lifetime, as you mentioned.

And that's why I get worried about where we come out of. So you can have political assassinations like we had in the 60s, but you also had a president that was like, hey, let's stop doing political assassinations, right? Now you have a president. Instead of saying, let's stop doing this, he's like, well, that's the left's fault. And I don't know if you saw what he said the other day, Tim, where he's like, the left needs to be very careful because the right is basically far stronger than the left. And they don't want to tick him off. He was basically talking about a civil war. Like if we end up in a civil war, the right will win, which by the way, I'm not sure I actually believe that. But that's what the president of the United States is saying. And that's where it's like, okay, well, then the second tier leaders, members of Congress and the Senate should be that kind of firebreak. But instead, they're actively like throwing Inverse, too. It's crazy. Somebody, one of the olds that lesson's going to correct me and be like, Tim, Newt Gingrich said this really irresponsible thing in the 90s.

I'm sure that happened. You guys can go through Newt's archives. But, you know, Bob Dole. Bob Dole is being normal. All right, let's be honest. So traditional phone systems weren't built for how businesses work today. Shit, half of the Gen Z staffers don't even understand how the old phone systems work. My child was looking at a wall phone the other day.

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that's QUO.com slash the bulwark. And if you have existing numbers with another service, Quo, we'll port them over at no extra charge. Quo, no miss calls, no miss customers. All right, Pete Heggseth. We're flying all the uniform officers from the whole world to Quantico. Unclear what's happening. I suggested maybe it's a keg party.

I liked a different suggestion I saw, which is maybe Pete is just giving them all a new Pete Hegseth Challenge coin. And maybe it comes with a little bit of crypto. What do you think is happening? Mark Hurtling wrote about this a little bit in the bulwark this morning. Folks want to read that? Look, I mean, the people, I've talked to people that are very high up in that organization in the past that have no idea, that are worried, former generals, everything else. Let me give you the 50,000 foot over you, if I had to predict, and we obviously don't know. What I think it is is, is Seth feels like people don't take him seriously, and he wants to bring all these generals together and be the guy in charge.

Okay. Now, what is that? What does that filter down as? I don't know. But I think he feels very uncomfortable. That's why he does pull-ups all the time and works out because he doesn't know what else to do for the cameras. He's an entertainer. Here's my kind of worst-case scenario to best-case scenario. The worst-case scenario is I want a loyalty pledge to Donald Trump, right? You take that now. If you don't take that, by the way, we are reducing the size of the general core. You can walk out. If you're willing to sign the pledge. edge stay. Who would stop that, honestly? I mean, there's nothing in place that would stop that. I kind of hate that you just put that out into the universe. Yeah, I know. I know. I know. I know. I'm not the first, though, so you can't blame me for it. But look, I think the general core in the military got too big. So I think there is a case to be made to shrink it. I just don't trust these guys to do it and to do it the right way. Yeah, right. The best case scenario is, and it's not the best because it's a war. The keg party. I'm just a keg party would be like, hey, we have indications that China. is about to attack Taiwan, everybody get ready.

I don't mean best case like that would be cool of trying to attack Taiwan, but that would be like the meeting had a serious reason to have a meeting. Right. I think it's probably over towards the loyalty test, but we'll have to see. There's no reason for it except that Pete Agzeth wants to stand in front of them and be tough. And I think this is kind of his almost Saddam Hussein moment. I mean, maybe that's the best case scenario. He just wants to feel tough and they all have to do a pull-up competition.

That feels like potentially the best place. That's true, except by doing that, I mean, ultimately, these generals are going to walk out, in essence, acquiesce to Trump's leadership at all cost. I mean, they have to acquies to his leadership, but like their loyalty is to him and not the Constitution. There's this idea that generals are the ones that are going to stand in the way of the violation of the Constitution. I've always thought it's going to be ranks lower than that. Generals are very political. Now, then against generals, there's some good ones, Mark Hurtling, Ben Hodges, etc. but a lot of them play politics, and that's how you become a four-star.

So, I don't know. It's not good either way, I don't think. The other alarming part that this kind of relates to is there's a memorandum this week about countering domestic terrorism that went out, really kind of focused on going after these Democratic groups, part of its Department of Justice stuff. There also is like the use of military to go after whatever. They're sort of vague about it. Like sometimes they'll say Antifa, sometimes I'll say George Torres, it's like, or these

left-wing groups that are organizing the street protests. And, you know, I mean, J.D. Vance was very vague about it where he's talking about there are groups out there. They're funding and supporting this sort of violence. And right, so they have a memorandum about countering that. That's related. Also, we have the National Guard, you know, being sent to various places, maybe my city here soon. That, to me, is just sort of like, we're bringing all these generals back. We're ramping up the use of the military against domestic foes. There's some ominous. mood music there for me. What do you make of all that? Yeah, no, I agree. I think it's, I think all of that comes into play. It's inexplicable. This administration, you know, they're kind of like, supposedly

we're back for Ukraine thing. I think was more about, hey, Europe, you take care of Europe. We don't care what you do. We'll sell you weapons. We're going to leave. So I think it's possible that it could be an announcement of withdrawing from Europe, which is nonsense, but could. They've also pivoted away from China, this whole administration that made their whole deal about, gosh, we just don't want to take on Russia because China's the big enemy and this clown, Bridge Colby, who's

just like stupid hair, stupid dumbass, and he's the one that's been blocking all the help for Ukraine. He claims it's because he's a China hawk. Well, the administration recently even said, we're pivoting away from China now to focus on our hemisphere. So what that's building

is this kind of eerie thing. We have a military that's way overfunded just for our hemisphere, by the way. If the point is just our hemisphere, we could actually cut the military in half. And it's like, well, what's going to happen here? And I don't think it's unlikely that they're going to use it more against the American people. By the way, the memo about calling people like Antifa domestic enemies or domestic terrorists is no different than these same people that were complaining because they used to say there are these far right extremist groups. But I don't remember any administration ever declaring war on far right extremist groups.

This is frightening, and they're building a scenario. And you could see it in the ice shooting and everything else, Charlie Kirk. They're building this scenario where it looks like there's this organized thing on the left to declare war against the American people. That's simply not it. It's other things that are leading to these shootings, not that. And so, yeah, I'm worried about it, Tim. I really am. It's like an advancement from where they were in the first term, right?

I just kind of bring some context here because I think it's important. So Elizabeth Newman, who was working at DHS on countering domestic terrorism in the real sense, like fears about coordinated domestic terrorism, she ends up resigning, leaving the administration. And like one of the reasons was that like in the report, I'm going this from memory. So I apologize if this isn't exactly right. But like in, you know, the assessment that they put out every year like about like what the Homeland Security threats are, they included like far right you know white nationalist domestic terror threats and like this the administration didn't want to like acknowledge that right and that was a fight internally and she ends up resigning and there are other people that got caught up and that other people resigned so now we've gone from them just like saying oh we're not going to think about any sort of white nationalist domestic terrorism like and like that is the thing that we're going to do stand that down we've advanced that from not only we're going to not focus on that like we're going to going to actually create this other group of left-wing domestic terrorists that we're going

to have a campaign against that will unite potentially the Department of Defense, the Department of Justice, and the Department of Homeland Security. And that is an alarming advancement of their ideology from where it was in this first term. Yeah, I agree. And this is why it's so important. First of, I think we need to kind of come to the realization. We keep talking about, are we going to become authoritarian? Are we on the edge of authoritarianism? I think we actually are authoritarian right now. I mean, I think this is the very definition of it. Now, saying we're in an authoritarian situation doesn't mean we're not going to have an election because I think we will. It doesn't mean, you know, Hungary has elections, right? But I think we are in that

moment of this is actually authoritarianism. And I think it's important to recognize that. I think it's important to point it out. And I think it's important for the opposition party, which I have so many criticisms of. It's funny, Tim, I'll criticize the Democrats. And I'll always inevitably get the comment of like, how about you start criticizing Republicans? I'm like, dude, I can't even, I can't even take that seriously. Yeah. But the, you know, this is where the opposition party, I think, has got to be putting markers down now every day, which is like, look, we may not be able to stop what's happening because of our relative lack of power in government, but we're taking names, right? Like with Cash Patel. Hey, if you're

going to go after James Comey? Okay, but you've set something just so you know, cash, you do have a five-year statute of limitations from when you testified, which means two years into a Democratic administration. You know, by the way, Qatar, just so you know, when we take over, if you think you're going to have a good deal because you bribed the president, think again, it's like putting those markers down now to anybody that would violate the law in the United States and any adversary area that there will be price to pay, I think can be part of pushing back against this, as well as generally people rising up. Hey, everybody, you've probably heard of you mentioned that the bulwark is headed back on the

road this fall, but we've got some big updates that I want you to hear. First, most importantly, we are adding a show in Toronto. I told you Canadians. I was doing my best to make it happen. I'm so thrilled by the response we've had from our Canadian friends. And wanted to make sure if you wanted to be able to come, you could. So we added a matinee, a brunch show, whatever you want to call it. Maybe a drag brunch.

Don't tell J.D. Vance the next day. No promises on drag queens there, but maybe the spirit of a drag brunch. And so that will be Saturday, the 27th. Go to the Bullwark.com slash events to get all the details and to get your tickets for that encore show in Toronto. Also, New York, that's going to sell out here any minute. So if you want to see us in New York on October 11th, get your tickets ASAP. There's still a bunch of tickets left for D.C. on October 8th, but we've got some exciting guest announcements coming soon. So if you're interested in coming to D.C., get on that as well.

All of the information available at the bulwark.com slash events. It's me, Sarah, and Sam up in Toronto, me, Sarah, and JVL and some of our other Bullwark friends and a special guest in Washington, D.C. Look forward to seeing you all out on the road. We'll catch you soon. those tickets now. Another thing you texted me this morning about this pushback,

I want to get your take on, is like thinking about the right tone for talking about authoritarianism. And I've been struggling with this as well, right? Because it's like, there are just limitations to the English language, right?

And I always want to make sure I'm clear in how I'm speaking to people and I'm not unnecessarily like riling them up and scaring them about things. Like we can be in an authoritarian moment and also not be in a place for like you have to be afraid to post or you're going to get jailed or sent to a camp. Right? You know what I mean? And it's like there's just such like a wide. Like the gap between Hungary and Nazi trinity is like so wide. Right. And so it's like you have to kind of assess accurately like kind of be clear out about where you are in that space. And the right type of resistance is different in Hungary than it would be, you know, if you were in Pyongyang or whatever. Right. And so part of that is, you know,

wanting people to feel like there's use that there's hope and resisting and part of it is thinking about like how to win other people over so you don't sound like a crazy person right like i was thinking about this like about the bro like podcast stuff like we're starting to win over some of these guys slowly you know i was talking about barstool guy earlier this week you're listening to shang gillis and and and you're trying to win these guys over if you're going to talk to them and you're talking about this administration like they're big scary guys and like this is nazi germany like those Burroughs are going to be like, whoa, okay. You might be the crazy one, it turns out.

And so maybe there's a better way to do it. We've been seeing some of that from South Park this week, which is really good. Actually, let's play my favorite clip from South Park this week. Will the head of the FCC be okay, doctor? His bones are healing, so he may regain full range of motion. But if the toxoplasmosis parasite gets to his brain, I'm afraid he may lose his freedom of speech. Adam, where are you at on this?

Like how, like the right tone for taking on these guys. Yeah, and I'm going to tell you my opinion or not pretend like I actually follow it all the time. Yeah, sure. Because it's a split mind. You know, I get so many people I had it yesterday that text me like, watch your back, be careful. We're concerned for you. I appreciate that. But I want everybody to know, I'm not intimidated by this moment.

I'm really not. First up, there's nothing they can come after me on. Even if they make it up, I'll win, right? Here's the thing. And I think we have to look at it from the perspective. And I think, Tim, you and I understand this having come from this part of the political spectrum. Donald Trump, to a lot of people, they like him because he's a big troll. He's trolling the left, right? Everything he says is a joke. It's a troll. They watch the liberals who they hate get hair on fire and pissed off. And that's what they love. They don't take anything he says seriously. It's not all of them, but a lot of them. And so when we feed into this. oh my god big scary Donald Trump is taking over America we're done as a democracy we're never going to have elections again and again I've said this stuff so I'm not I'm not holy here but you're not actually helping the cause you're you're actually energizing the right they love when you say that they love the idea that you're afraid of Donald Trump what they don't love is

when you minimize him and you talk about the fact that he smells I mean the the smell thing has done more to get into his head than anything else, right? The fact that he has small hands. Is he doing new perfume? Is he perfuming? He's got, I mean, he has to, right? That's the only way to cover it up. A new signature scent for Donald Trump after you, after you called him out. Oh, to ass or whatever. And, uh, but yeah, I mean, when you minimize him and you make him small and you, you know, when South Park says, all he does is sue people. And I remind people that the Republican Party used to be against frivolous lawsuits. Now we embrace it because this whiny, snowflakey bitch has to run around and he gets

offended all the time. That actually does more to fight back against Donald Trump than like, I'm so scared. He's so big. They're coming to take over. So this is what I struggle with is like, I want people to be aware of the danger because I think it's very real. At the same time, the tactics that actually work the best is minimizing this man because The whole reason he tweets in all caps and yells and everything is because he thinks, truly, psychologically, he's, he's a six-year-old boy who's still trying to win his father's approval.

I would feel bad for him if he wasn't president. And so that's how you push back. It's kind of related also to the going after the corruption thing. It's like, why does the corruption thing work maybe more than like the democracy message, right? Because it like frames him up differently for people. Like if people are looking at him and they're like, oh, wait, it's not like this big powerful guy who's trying to make America great and like looking. out for you and going after these liberal enemies. He's actually just, like, lining his own pockets and giving his dumb-ass kids, generational

wealth. And he also is a little bitch that's scared of criticism, right? Like, it's just, like, how do you, like, frame the critiques in a way that, like, take it out of his preferred narrative, you know? And in some ways, those are, like, you know, potentially, we don't really know, but, like, seems potentially more fruitful. And there's evidence this in other countries than. than, you know, some of the more, you know, high-minded stuff.

Why is it that dictators in the past, when they crack down on his mockery, right? It's when you mock. Kim Jong-un, I mean, he was pissed off at the, you know, the movie about him that nobody in North Korea would even see. Right. Because it mocked him. It made him small, right? And this is what he's trying to fight against is that, is that being strong. So, again, I'm not minimizing the threat.

It's real. Sure, yeah. But it's also minimizing him as a person, which I think is. I think that's essential. Where are you at on how the Democrats handled the shutdown stuff? You've literally been in this boat back in, you don't need to remind people about your Tea Party days, but we're on the Tea Party side of shutting down the government when Obama was in, right? You were in there and, like, lived through that.

No, I was always like, you were in there when that was happening, though. When Ted Cruz and those guys were trying to shut down the government when Obama was in, so you kind of had the perspective of being in the, how do we navigate this stuff when you're out of power? Yes. So what advice do you got for the Dems on that? Listen, man, here's the thing. And I've been in a number of these, right? Like basically all of them.

And the whole thing, government shutdowns themselves, they suck, but they're not the end of the world. A debt default is very different. That's the end of the world. Government shutdown, whatever. I mean, all government shutdown is, is a political problem. that you have to saddle on your enemy, okay, your political enemy. I got to be careful how I say that.

So what would my advice be? It would have been three months ago for the Democratic leaders to have said only one thing and tell their members to say only one thing. That thing is, look, we don't have any control in government. We don't have the House. We don't have the Senate. We don't have the presidency. The Republicans made it clear.

They wanted all three. They got all three. It is on them to fund the government. That's it. We don't have any power. The Republicans have to find a way to fund this. Now, if they can't get enough votes, okay, we're willing to come to the table, but it's not going to be free because we don't trust you.

We don't believe in anything you're doing. So we won't stand in the way if you guys want to do something on your own. We can't stand in the way. But if you need our help, it's going to cost. Instead, Tim, what's happened is Jeffries and Schumer have begged the president to meet. He power moved them by canceling the meeting. And now the American people who are just starting to pay attention and actually won't pay attention until the government shuts down. And their mind, the Democrats have a role to play in the governing of this country. And so every

time we went into a government shutdown, the message in the party and the conference when we would meet went from what can we get out of this 100% to an obsession about how to put the blame on the other person. That is the whole fight. And the Democrats have walked into a trap. And that trap is, you know, we don't want to shut down the government. No, you don't even say that, Schumer. You simply say, I don't have a choice. It's up to the Republicans. Do I want to shut it down? I don't know. I don't have any choice. If they want to come to me, I'm happy to chat, but they've got to come here because they wanted this. And that's the thing. And that's where we're at. And they have failed. And remember Schumer when he capitulated in January, he said the real fight is.

is September 30th. Well, here we are. Now what? They fail at the messaging. I still think they shouldn't capitulate to this, but there are eight freaking endings behind right now on where they need to be on the messaging. So what do they do right now? We're here. We are where we are. Yeah. I mean, I would go to that message now, which is like, look, the Republicans have control. We're happy to help, but obviously we have demands. And I would leave it at that. And when the government shuts down, if it does, they need to. be on every mic, every TV, every podcast, saying, I hate government shuts down. This is stupid.

And if Donald Trump is threatening to fire everybody and sabotage his own government, okay. I'm sorry that sucks. Let him do it. It's his government. If he wants to sabotage the government, he will own that. If he starts laying people off, the Democrats aren't going to be to blame. Donald Trump is going to be to blame. This is a political fight win the politics so you can eventually win in 26 and 28.

My rant's over. Okay, one other really quick political story that's out there. I just wanted your take on because it's like a little hard for me to follow. It's like a story from another era, one of these old APO hits that I used to do like 20 years ago. I was like, I think I've got something. I'd pitch a reporter and I'd be like, it's actually quite a bit more complicated than it seemed. But Mikey Sherrill, running for governor, New Jersey, the Democratic candidate. She's a veteran.

There was some story, I guess, about how there was some scandal when she was in college or hit the military academy. Like, who gives a fuck what happened then, is my opinion. But there's maybe a sub-scandal about how the Trump administration provided more information to the opposing candidate than was legal or that they should have. What can you tell us about this? So I don't know exactly what the Pentagon is allowed to provide publicly. I think you can request my military record or it will probably show like where I've been, my years, stuff like that, right? Top-line stuff. what they released was basically the entire service record down to the nuts and bolts, including family members.

I think clearances, like she had to get clearance that they released that paperwork. That's the stuff that the Chinese stole, by the way, 11 years ago and has been a huge deal. That was released to the opposition. She has a lawsuit on her hands, I think, and she should actually file that lawsuit. This is garbage. The Pentagon is now claiming it was ineptitude, and maybe it was, but it was ineptitude. of course, always on the side of providing more information for the Republican. So the person that provided it certainly was probably a Republican.

Listen, here's the broader picture. Tim, I don't know why anybody who has ever served in the military would ever run for office. Here's what's happening. When I ran in 2010, I flew airplanes in the special operations in the Air Force. And the first two years I flew, I flew at KC-135 air refueler. The rest of my time, I flew in RC26, which is a reconnaissance plane, was part of the special operations. Anyway, I had mentioned that I flew for the special operations in my bio in 2010, and somebody saw that, but didn't realize I switched planes, thought I flew a KC 135 for the special operations, which doesn't exist, and called BS and said I was lying about my service career. So my opponent, Debbie Halverson, then made an inquiry to the military.

The military obviously confirmed my side. but that inquiry they even made cost her probably five points in the election. The point is, I have not lied about my service, but it can be attacked because somebody can take something I've said out of context. If I said that I went to Iraq four times and it was three and I mistook it, now all of a sudden I'm the worst American ever. Look at what they've done to everybody that served in the military. You have got to make sure that you were 100% accurate about your service. And by the way, military guys, the fish is always bigger, right? We always make the fish bigger.

And I don't know why anybody in the military would ever run. And that's a problem. That's a problem when the bravest and the most honorable among us are worried about running for office. And this is a problem. Really, yes, it's Republicans and Democrats. It's a problem in the veterans community because you've probably seen online these fights where one veteran says another one didn't really serve because he didn't go into the war. And I hate the veteran fights.

It makes us look stupid. Anyway. I also hate the veteran fights with one. exception jadie vance oh yeah yeah yeah i love that his his work as a journalist or and i will also say there's a dude that ran for congress in florida that like lied that he was a special forces guy and he was a load master that kind of stuff is fair game i feel like we glossed over ukraine part of the reason why i glossed over it and i haven't talked about that much this week is i'm kind of in like a let's believe i'll believe when i see it mode on trump with ukraine but he does send out

a uh a bleat that is a dramatic change to sounding more like adam kinsiger really held sudden on Ukraine, we're talking about not only, you know, he goes from saying Ukraine doesn't have the cards and I need to suck up to Putin to now it's like, Putin is weak. Ukraine could take back all of its territory, going back to the territory in Crimea that was taken during the Obama administration and we'll sell the weapons to NATO for them to do that. What do you make of that? Yeah, it's weird. Look, it's better than nothing. What I kind of read out of this is Donald Trump is going to divorce himself from the Ukraine situation. And honestly, probably, the best case scenario is if Donald Trump just quit, quit dealing with it because he's creating

more problems than not. It's weird because that tweet ended where that bleat ended with good luck to all. Good luck to all, both sides. Like, what? I think there's probably real frustration in his end because he probably thought his like love affair with Vladimir Putin would help. Putin's only escalated his attacks. Now he's literally attacking European capitals. I mean, we are on the edge of shooting bat. It won't be World War III, but like kind of some shots fired. The fact that we're selling NATO weapons for Ukraine is good. What NATO needs to do is there's $300 billion of Russian assets that are frozen. They need to just take those. We've talked about it for three years. Take it and buy weapons with them. But as an American, I kind of feel sick because Terry Verts is running

for Senate in Texas. He uses this example. He says, if a hurricane hits Texas, you know, I go over, I have wood, I help my neighbor rebuild. And there's also a Home Depot. Now, what I'm doing is because I'm a good person. I'm helping my neighbor. Home Depot, what they're doing is making money and selling wood. They're not there for moral reasons. And that's what we are now. We're not there for moral reasons. We're basically a merchant. Ukraine just did a counteroffensive. They took back 200 square kilometers. This idea that Ukraine's going to die. We've been talking about this for three years. They're going to win this war. And the president is right in what he said. And hopefully it's stays that way. But I won't be surprised if by the time in two hours when this episode

publishes, he's already reversed. All right, man, I appreciate that. I need to do just a hard pivot here to some sad podcast news. I wanted to mention the producer from almost day one of this podcast, Katie Cooper has been with us every morning, every day, and she lost her husband, Bill, earlier this week. They had met in college. They'd been together forever. Bill. I had the pleasure of meeting a handful of times at our live events. Just a happy guy, funny, jovial. He did a couple bourbon runs for me when I was in a pinch. And I just, I'm broken up for Katie. It was unexpected and tragic. And so I want to send my love to her. And I hope that all of you can offer up a prayer or send your love or send positive vibes as well

out to L.A. And if the podcast is not as sharp, if you're hearing more of my ums over the next few weeks, that's because we're not working with our strongest soldier. So much love to Katie and her family. And Adam, appreciate you sticking around with me for the show. You bet. Take care, buddy. All right. Everybody else will be back Monday for another edition of the podcast with Bill Crystal. And oh, by the way, we still have a couple tickets left for tomorrow's matinee bonus event in Toronto. I'm taping from there right now. So if you can get to Toronto by noon on Saturday, we'll see you there. See you back here on Monday. Otherwise, bye. It's goodbye to all my friends. It's time to go again. But think all the poultry and they're picking down

the line. Well, I'll miss the system here. The bottom's low and the treble's clear, but it don't paid to think too much on things you leave behind. Well, I may be gone, but it won't be long. I'll be bringing back the melody and rhythm that I find. We all got holes to fill, and them holes are all this real, It's real

Some fall on you like a storm Sometimes you dig your own But choice is yours to make And time is yours to take Some dive into the sea Some toil upon the stone Better to live's to fly All low and high

So shake the dust off of your wings Sleep out of your eyes I'll shake the dust off of your wings and tears out of your eyes The Bullock podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.