The Bulwark Podcast - Al Gore: Trump Has Made a Historic Mistake

Episode Date: March 26, 2026

For nearly 50 years, since the Ayatollah seized power in Iran and took Americans hostage, the U.S. has known that the regime could single-handedly shut down the Strait of Hormuz. Trump was reportedly warned of this threat, but the failed casino owner blew it off. And now Iran unilaterally controls 20% of the world’s oil supply and an even higher percentage of the fertilizer inventory. But the former vice president tells Tim that Trump’s judgment has been even worse on climate change. On the 20th anniversary of “An Inconvenient Truth,” Gore discusses how the rest of the global economy has ‘miraculously’ responded to the climate threat. He also gives high marks to Mamdani, explains Trump’s use of fear, shares details about his relationship with Clinton—and how his actions after the 2000 election inspired Mike Pence on Jan. 6.Former Vice President Al Gore joins Tim Miller.show notes Gore’s climate change training in Nashville in May More on Gore’s “Climate Reality Project” Tim’s ‘Bulwark Take’ with Ezra Levin on Saturday’s “No Kings” protests Slow the growth of greys and get 15% off by using code THEBULWARK at Arey.com Take advantage of Ridge’s once-a-year anniversary sale and get UP TO 40% Off by going to https://www.Ridge.com/THEBULWARK #Ridgepod For a limited time, get 60% off your first order, plus free shipping, when you head to Smalls.com/thebulwark.

Hello and welcome to the Bullwark podcast. I'm your host Tim Miller. Could not be more excited about today's guest. He is marking the 20th anniversary of his Oscar-winning documentary and Inconvenient Truth, which raised awareness about climate change and led to the founding of the Climate Reality Project, which will be holding leadership trainings to mark the anniversary coming up soon, including in Nashville, where he will be. It's, of course, the former vice president of these United States, Al Gore.

A strange world that led us here, sir, but I really appreciate it. Can I call you Al? What are you going? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that works. Yeah, and Tim, thank you for having me on with you. I've followed your work with great interest and growing enthusiasm. Thank you for what you're doing. And it's an honor for me to be with you today.

I appreciate that. I don't know. My former boss, Jeb, has got to be looking at this going. I don't know what happened. I don't know. I don't know who went. But I love that we come to this place. I appreciate the reminder and the work.

I want to start with get to climate. Then we're obviously going to get to the news. Before we do that, just in case I lost you, I feel absolutely compelled, though, to start with one personal item of personal privilege. There are some rumors that you are the heroic tank man recently when Howard Nutluck was speaking at a recent conference and you are booing him. You are a solo booer. And I want to play for you his rendition of what happened on Fox News.

Basically, a very left set of talks where someone said, we need a new form of capitalism, which I think is another way to say communism. And then they let me speak at the end. Then I gave a three-minute talk. And I just talked about my op-ed. And at the end of my talk, one person out of the 200 yelled out, boo. So I look over and I'm like, who booed? And it's Al Gore.

And I go to, I look at him, I go, really? And he goes, boo. And I'm like, boo. Is that true? Well, part of it. No, it's not true. But it was an interesting experience, Tim. You know, President Trump brought Ludnik and several others with him to the Davos meeting at a time when the U.S.

Trump is trying to split the U.S. off from our historic partners in Western Europe and elsewhere. And anyway, Lutnik was surprisingly out. right insulting to our hosts there in the dinner. That's really kind of what offended me. I didn't interrupt his speech in any way. But, you know, I looked around in this. A respectful boo at the end, though? Well, I just felt like, you know, I had made no secret of the fact that I think that the Trump group's whole approach to climate is just utterly insane. And for him to stand and repeat those falsehoods. Anyway, I just expressed what I felt, and it was interesting after that because I got up and left and essentially everybody did, even though the dessert course remained and

there was another speaker, but everybody, everybody left. And anyway, a small thing, but I kind of think boo is the nicest thing. One of my close friends, one of my close friends wrote me and said it was not elegant, but it was eloquent. Yeah, there you go. Like I said, I think it's about the nicest thing you could do for our but, you could have held up a sign, what happened on Epstein Island, a lot of potential protests for our Commerce Secretary. But we'll move on to the climate stuff.

As I mentioned, so it's a 20-year anniversary, which is kind of crazy. Time flies. And, you know, there's so much going on in the news with Trump from time to time, and I feel sometimes bad that on the show, like we don't check. enough about like what is happening on the climate issue and i guess it was a couple months ago now i had david wallace wells on and was just you know who'd written a great book on climate i just said for those of us who aren't you know following the science journals like get us up to speed and so i guess i kind of want to start there with you like thinking back to 20 years ago when the inconvenient truth

came out like where are we now as compared to what your worries were what the possibilities were you know, what's the status of the climate? Yeah, well, first of all, Tim, thank you very much for mentioning this training in Nashville May 1st and May 2nd. The Climate Reality Project.org is where you can sign up. No charge, totally free. You'll learn the latest and best facts and all the latest evidence on what's causing the climate crisis, what the solutions are, and they're increasingly available and affordable and superior.

And you'll be able to network with people. who agree with you and find out how to get some good work done. And by the way, Tim, I wanted to mention the No Kings rally this coming Saturday, just a few days from now. Are you going to go to one of the No Kings rallies? I'm hoping to. I'm going to see how it works out. But I just think it's really important for people to come out.

I agree. I talked to Ezra Levin. People can go check that out on our YouTube feed about. Yeah, he and his wife, both brilliant. I enjoy working with them. But anyway, back to your important question. In the last 20 years, we've seen increased global warming pollution emitted into the sky and the heat trapped by the accumulated amount.

You know, it goes up there and stays there for quite a long time, unfortunately. And the accumulated amount now traps as much extra heat each day as would be released by 750,000 Hiroshima-Kulmonary, class atomic bombs exploding every day on the Earth. It's hard to express this in numbers that are accessible and comprehensible, but the amount of harm being done is amazing. By the way, behind me, what you see there is the thin blue line. That's a picture taken from the space station.

And that thin blue line is where all the oxygen is. And that's where all of the global. global warming pollution hangs out. It just is stuffed into that thin blue line. And here's the thing. That line is so thin that if you could drive a car straight up in the air at interstate highway speeds, you'd get to the top of that blue line in about five minutes. It's really shockingly thin.

You could walk it in an hour. And that's where we're putting another 175 million tons every single day. And it keeps adding up. and the harms are, have been adding up as well. And, you know, at the same time, Tim, during these last 20 years, we have seen a truly dramatic, nearly miraculous change in patterns of the global economy, whereby now every year we're investing twice as much in renewable energy sources that don't create, pollution as we are continuing to invest in fossil fuels. Now, the bad news is that we're still

seeing all this investment in fossil fuels, but the good news is that we're seeing the dramatic change unfold in the real world. The climate policy discussion and those proposals that we're in a climate policy recession now led by Trump. But in the real world, these changes are moving very quickly. I'll give you one quick example. If you look at all of the new electricity generation installed worldwide last year, you know, we have all these discussions about nuclear and gas and coal still going and so forth, what percentage of all the new electricity was renewable last year? The answer is 92 and a half percent. I mean, it's just, you know, where the future is concerned, it came over. We're going to win this. But in the U.S., it was 90%, and if you include

rooftop solar, it was 92% in the U.S. last year. That was me. I chimed in. I did a rooftop last year. It was part of the 92. Good for you. Part of the two, I guess. Good for you. As the Australian say, good on you. In the state of Texas, the home of the oil and gas industry in the United States, 80% of all the new electricity capacity was solar and wind, and the majority of that's solar. So, you know, on the next biggest source of the emissions is transportation, cars, trucks, planes, et cetera. And yet, from a standing start up until December of this past year, in that month, 29% of all new vehicles sold worldwide are now EVs. In China, 60%.

The trend line is amazing. And in countries you might not expect, like Ethiopia and Nepal, they're going to 100% EVs. It just makes sense, you know. And so this sustainability revolution is still gaining momentum, but put these two halves together. More pollution, unfortunately, a failure on policy. but the solutions are growing rapidly.

When you put them together, the crisis is still getting worse quicker than we are assembling the solutions and implementing the solutions. But we're gaining, and as I said before, we're going to win this. The only question is whether we will win it in time to avoid going over some of these so-called negative trip wires, negative tipping points. And some of them sound like science fiction movies like the... Gulfstream shutting down, for God's sake. But it's real because the scale of this is just so unprecedented.

And I could go through the rest of it, but we want not going to think. No, let's do it. Let's go through the rest of it through the context of this. Like one thing, you know, that I worry, obviously I worry about the substance of the policy itself, but you see a lot, particularly in the younger generation, so what they call dumerism about climate, like the sense that it's already lost, you know, that these trip wires are going to be hit. So I shouldn't have kids. I shouldn't worry. You know what I mean? It brings a very negative kind of worldview. And obviously there's a lot to be negative about.

But I'm kind of wondering, you know, it seems like you have a more sort of balanced view on that. Like how far are we away from the more dumer vantage point on this? And is it avoidable? Yeah. Thank you so much. So such a well-framed question. You know, back in my first movie 20 years ago, I noted that there were some people who went from denial to despair without pausing on the intermediate step of actually doing something about the crisis that we're facing. And that tendency is still around. I wouldn't say that most people are doing that at all because people are participating. You just got your solar. So, I mean, there are millions of people.

19 years later. better late than never well you know we've all got a long way to go still but but um i do think that the the element of despair is a real challenge for sure and you know surprising it was the first person back in the 1960s to have this saying um that i'm about to share with you you've heard it before it was joan bias the antidote to despair is action and we've heard that in the permutation, the antidote to climate despair is climate action. And it really is true. And enough people are acting that we are beginning to see a turnaround. And if I could kind of frame it in the scale of the question you asked, Tim, just imagine for a moment what it could be like

for this young generation, these young generations, to come to. to believe in the importance of a shared mission to save humanity's future. It sounds like such a vast challenge that that in itself triggers some people to despair. And it also makes some people disbelieve that it's possible. But you know, I had an experience. I'm much older than you, of course. And back when I was quite young, I was thrilled when President John F. Kennedy announced the challenge of putting a person on the moon in 10 years and bringing them back safely. My whole generation was, the whole country was. Not everybody agreed with it, even back then. But I do, in fact, I remember hearing people say, there's a lot of money, we shouldn't do that, what's the point,

all of that. And it's probably not going to work anyway. But eight years and two months later, Neil Armstrong set foot on the moon. And in the moment when he did so in Houston, in mission control, there was a great cheer that went up. And the average age of the systems engineers in that room who cheered was 26 years old. Oh, God. Which means that when they first heard that challenge, they were 18 years old. They changed their careers, many of them. They changed the plot of their life. I hear that now among so many young people who are trying to gear up to help solve this big challenge. And I think that, you know, the interference in clear and honest communication about this

on the part of the fossil fuel companies has really been an obstacle to get around. But we are managing to do it. And this training, May 1st and May 2nd in Nashville, free of charge, the climate reality project.org. I'm sorry to repeat myself, but I've been told it works. and is designed to get around all of the obfuscation and the phony messaging from the fossil fuel polluters and give people the tools they need and the networks they can use to really bring about to this change in a faster, healthier way.

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them we sent you. Okay, so the dumer questions from my friends are what climate changes are probably irreversible. Like if we want to see the coral reefs, do we've got to get scuba certified immediately at New Orleans? Are we going to be able to save New Orleans? Yeah, the world's shallow coral reef systems are very much in danger.

And, you know, the honest answer to your question is that there has been some damage. And tragically, regrettably, some of the damage that's been done is not reversible. but the most dangerous impacts are still avoidable and preventable in the view of the vast majority of the climate scientists who I trust and whose judgment has been correct, by the way. You go back 20 years and listen to what they were warning us about then. The fact that they were proven dead right should cause us to pay more attention to what these same scientists are saying now, which is, good Lord Almighty, stop using the sky as an open sewer for this civilization destroying pollution. But back to your point, these scientists believe that most of the, most if not all, of the really catastrophic changes still can be avoided. But we're seeing the ice melt,

and it's probably inevitable that we're going to see Greenland go and, and the West Antarctic ice sheet go. Now, the pace with which that happens is still partly under our control. How long will it take to have an orderly retreat from coastal areas that are going to be at very high risk of being flooded? It's already begun, of course, but we still can control the pace. Now, could the coral reefs almost disappear and then recover? I would hope so, but it's in the area where the information does not really support a definitive timeline for what's going to happen.

We just have to do our best. So is that the case for invading Greenland then, you know, the concern about Greenland going? Are you intrigued it all by that idea? Honestly, just this past week, the news that the Danish government had put in place plans to to militarily defend the runways there. It's just heartbreaking, Tim. I mean, as you know, when NATO's self-defense obligations were triggered and troops were sent by allies to Afghanistan and Iraq, Denmark, on a per capita basis, lost more lives defending the United States when we were attack than any other nation in the world. And we put them in a position where they have to militarily

defend the airport in Greenland. It's just, you know, there's there's outrage exhaustion and that in itself is an obstacle. But, you know, we'll get through this. I'm convinced that we will, and I'm hopeful that in the process, we'll see the emergence of a stronger, more involved and passionate and better informed political coalition of which you and your team is a critical part to transcend this bitter partisanship and start solving the damn problems. I hope so as well. Unfortunately, we are where we are. We still have two and a three years left of this, a little under that.

And so I want to talk a little bit about what we're seeing. Two years and 300 and something days. Days. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. And seven months. until the midterm elections.

And you know the term bow wave. I think there's already a bow wave from the elections coming in seven months. And we've seen all these special elections, and they've really affirmed the growing consensus in both parties that if something dramatic doesn't change, we're going to see a dramatic change in November. Yeah, I think in part because of choices he's made,

And we mentioned almost entirely because choices he's made. We mentioned Greenland and the tariffs. But I think the most recent move in Iran has just been an unbelievable cell phone. I mean, I look at it and I think that it's a disaster across every possible metric. I mean, I guess the micrometric of like, you know, most military material bombed. Like we're doing well at that if it's like a video game. But from a strategic standpoint, it seems like a disaster to me. What's your vantage point about what this?

administration is doing in Iran. I'm too old to remember Laurel and Hardy and you surely are, but there was a famous sequence where one of them would say to the other, well, this is a fine pickle you've got us in. And I think that the country is saying to Donald Trump, well, this is a mell of a Hess, you've got us in. I mean, we've got to find a way out of this as a country. and I don't want to see it just as an opportunity to point out the devastating mistakes that Trump is making. He is. It's really tragic. We've got to find a way out. But, you know, with him as president is, it is very difficult. Your lawyer in the Bush Gore, Supreme Court case, David Boyes wrote this in the Wall Street Journal a couple weeks ago, Trump's doing the right thing for the U.S., and we Democrats should judge the war on its merits,

talking about how Democrats should work with Trump to get an exit on this. That didn't make any sense to me. I mean, I hear your point from earlier about how, you know, we want to get rid of partisanship. I think there are moments to supersede partisanship. To me, this seems like a moment for hyper-partisanship. I think the only way out of this is him turning around. Well, that's an interesting view. First of all, on David's piece, I really like David a lot in them.

I guess I'm glad I didn't read that particular article if it says you summarize. You know, we all have some misses. We all have some misses. Well, anyway, I like him very much. But for 47 years, including the years when I was on the National Security Council as vice president in the West Wing, including the years that I served on the Intelligence Committee when I was in the Congress, I became familiar as everyone who deals with the geopolitical strategy for the U.S. does with the problem of the Strait of Hormuz. Since the Ayatollah Khomeini took over Iran and took hostages from the American Embassy,

we've had all kind of war games and strategy plans, and they all come down to one salient fact. Because the Strait of Hermuz has 300 miles of coastline along rugged territory owned by Iran, they can shut down the Strait of Hormuz by themselves. They can hit ships with missiles launched from the back of pickup trucks, and they can hide those pickup trucks, and they can launch mines from Dow's, and they can do other things. So it's a prominent reality that should dominate or at least be highly prioritized in any discussion of whether or not the U.S. ought to launch an attack on Iran. and according to the news reports, it was presented, as you could expect it would be, including by the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General Kane, who seems to be a very capable, competent military officer. And according to the news reports, the president said,

no, it's not a problem because they'll surrender before they use that option. And, I mean, I think the level of fear among his advisors, may be such that they don't want to disagree with him. I'm just speculating here on that now. I don't know. But for whatever reason, that key exchange between the commander and chief and the chairman of the joint chiefs on the key strategic point that Republican and Democratic administrations have understood for almost a half century went wrong.

and that translated into an astonishingly harmful mistake that is going to create a very difficult, already has created a very difficult situation. And, you know, he's faced with the option of snatching defeat from the jaws of Armageddon. And what I mean by that is letting go of the conflict and declaring victory and trying to make it into something other than a defeat, if he chooses that option, you know, I hope he gets away with it in the sense that I hope he finds a pathway that's kind of an exit ramp, but he won't get away with it and he knows that. So he's stuck. And unfortunately, the country is stuck. Now, things happen. war. Once they're launched, it's difficult. But the Iranians appear to have established as a reality the continuing control of theocracy with succession plans that have been uninterrupted by all these assassinations and attacks. They've proven that they're still in control of the

streets and in control of the country. They've proven a level of competence in their military planning that strikes fear in the hearts of the surrounding Gulf nations. And they've established that they can indeed exercise unilateral control over 20 percent of the fossil fuel supply of the entire world and an even higher percent of the fertilizer supply of the world. And they've establish that they can launch devastating. It's very serious and damaging attacks on their neighbors. So now Trump is responding by escalating his threats and having one ultimatum after another. And, you know, it's not working. Again, I hope he finds an exit ramp, for God's sake. But, you know, launching attacks on their, on their civilian patterns.

our plants is a war crime, according to most international lawyers, but would also trigger the response against Israel, against the Gulf nations, et cetera, and that could really spiral this thing out of control. So we're in an exceptionally dangerous situation. But one thing I want people to focus on is this mistake he's made is historic. And I want to focus on how bad the judgment was in launching this attack in spite of clear warnings that it was a mistake. And I want you to take that event and apply it to the climate crisis. It's an even.

But sure. Climate too. It's an even worse mistake at a time when we're nearing truly catastrophic environmental damage. on a planetary scale to launch and pursue this fiction that the climate crisis is a hoax for God's sake. Last year, 61% of the landmass of the earth had at least one month of extreme drought. We saw the downpourges this week in Hawaii, which was far beyond what had ever been predicted was possible in the past. we're seeing 30 million tons of ice melt each hour in Greenland every hour right now. And the list goes on.

The idea that that's a hoax is an even worse mistake in judgment than the mistake Donald Trump has made in cavalierly ignoring the military advice of the last 50 years to keep our country safe. Okay, great. I'm marking you down as a no in Iran. So here we go. It's you and me on the no side. on the Iran War, your former lawyer and my former boss, Jeb and David, were on the yes side. So we'll see how it turns out. I think that me and you are on the right side of that. Let's explore this. Let's explore this just a bit more, Tim. I mean, I just think it's an utter catastrophe. Everything that you laid out, I totally agree with.

And it's possibly worse than you laid out because I think the unintended consequences of the spiraling out of control are hard to even fathom right now. And we're in a three-legged race with BB Netanyahu. So. Well, this is where I was going to go. next. I'm curious your thoughts of that. The coordinating the off-ramp is also a challenge. But I do want to make one point that's very important for the U.S. and even more crucial for Israel. The fact that they were developing the capacity to have nuclear weapons is a serious challenge. It's one that we dealt with in the Clinton Gore years. And, you know, they say the toughest problem

in American politics are the ones that reach the Oval Office, because nobody else has been able to solve them lower down. I found the category of problems that are tougher than that. They're the ones that reach the Oval Office and are left on the resolute desk for the next president to take on. And the slow-moving acquisition of both nuclear weapons and ICBMs by Iran cannot be ignored. So there is at the bottom of this a legitimate threat. But, you know, the manner of dealing with it, negotiations were tried into previous administrations.

And there are differing opinions, of course, but it seems like a more realistic pathway to resolving this. But in any case, let's move on from Iran. We agree. Before we move on, I said one thing on to Israel, because I think this is a big question in democratic politics in particular right now. And you were a strong supporter of the U.S.-Israel relationship in your career. where, like, obviously, a lot of things have evolved in the last 26 years on that front, in addition to on the climate front. And I'm just wondering how you think democratic leaders right now should be thinking about

our relationship with Israel, whether that should be changing at all, whether there should be limits put on our aid to them. Just kind of open question on your thoughts on that. Well, we've had a longstanding commitment to the survival and thriving. of Israel and after the tragedies of the Holocaust. And not only that, that was the culmination of 3,000 years of persecutions and pogroms in various parts of the world. So the overriding value of supporting the survival and thriving of Israel, I think, is really

important. I think that the question you ask is important, but another question is, too, what is President Netanyahu going to do about American public opinion where that relationship is concerned? Because throughout the time I was in the Congress, there was very solid bipartisan support not only among the elected officials, but among everybody's constituents. And I think that that needs to be taken into it. That change needs to be taken into account by Bibi. And so if you're a Democrat right now, you're kind of thinking about this, you know, like APEC has become a flashpoint in a lot of these races.

I mean, do you think that Democrats should be wary of the relationship with APEC, given what BV's been doing? Well, I think it's going to be different in each district. And I get the point behind all your questions. These are turbulent times. And Vladimir Lennon, who I do not prefer to quote ever, famous. famously said, decades go by when nothing happens, and then weeks go by when decades happen. And you could even say that on rare occasions a year goes by when a century happens. And what I mean by that oblique reference is 81 years ago, the Pax Americana was established.

NATO, the United Nations, the World Bank, the WTO, all of the global institutions. institutions and arrangements that make up the rules-based order and led to the huge economic boom of the post-war years and beyond. All of that has been put at risk by Donald Trump. Again, his mistake on the climate crisis is even more serious still. But putting the rules-based order at risk. You know, Winston Churchill had a famous quip. I've quoted it a number of times you probably have too, where he said the American people will generally do the right thing after first exhausting every available alternative. Everybody focuses on the laugh line that he put at the end of that expression, but the predicate, the first part of it, America will generally do the right

thing. That is precisely what Donald Trump has a put under question. And all of the post-war arrangements ultimately rely on the conviction of all our allies and friends and our enemies as well that America is going to do the right thing at the end of the day. And Trump has put that in question. He has. You wrote this.

I put this up in the assault of reason. Excuse me, the assault on reason. She wrote after you left office. I just want to read a little part to you from that. about the, you were talking about the Bush term in this context, but I think it's even more acute now when you think about what Donald Trump is doing. I'm convinced that our founders would counsel us today that one of the greatest challenges facing our republic is how we react to terrorism and how we manage our fears and achieve security without losing our freedom. I'm also convinced that they would warn us that democracy itself is in great danger if we allow any president to use his role as commander in chief to rupture the careful balance between the executive legislation. and judicial branches of our government.

I mean, that was a prescient worry in 2007, but like the scale of that rift is almost immeasurable now compared to when you wrote it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's really something, isn't it? And you know, last week, one of the greatest philosophers of the post-war era, Yergen Habermas, died in Germany.

part of the famous Frankfurt School. And I'm bringing this up because I want to share with you a thought from Habermaz's mentor, an older philosopher who was the founder of the Frankfurt School. They went through the Hitler years in exile and then came back. Adorno conducted a moral autopsy of the Third Reich. And he identified what he said was the first step on the descent into hell by Germany. And he said it was this. They converted, and I quote, all questions of truth into questions of power. And he went on to say they attacked the very distinction between what is true

and what is false. It's ethically wrong in every way to compare anyone else to Hitler, and I certainly don't want to compare Trump to Hitler. But it's important to learn the lessons of previous periods of time when nations have become entranced by a demagogic leader promoting autocracy, because it's not just Germany in the 30s. It's happened repeatedly, and again, nothing compares to the Nazis. But all of them have tried to control the way their people think and limit the distribution of ideas that they felt were harmful to their triumph of the will, to their design to accomplish what they really wanted to do. And our founders understood that the lust for power is in its own orbit. And as one of our founders wrote, the appetite increases with the eating.

And what they had seen in their study of Rome and Greece and all of the people, the monarchies that they were so angry at because of their experience with King George, they distill that into a unique fear of power being sought for its own sake. And when that's connected to a desire to convert questions of truth into questions of power, that's really the foundation of self-government and representative democracy. And that's what's being attacked right now in a, in a, a comprehensive way, Project 2025 and all of those who use that and other ideas associated with it as a kind of a blueprint for what they're trying to get done in a hurry. It really should inspire

all of us to stand up and use our voices as Americans to save the spirit of America, to save the essence of our American experiment. I think we will, by the way. I do too. I'm not a dumer on this either. Truth finds a way. Like the reality finds a way. And I think Trump's experiencing that right now. Yeah. And unfortunately, I wish he would have experienced it earlier and we wouldn't have to suffer through a second term of him.

But I think that the reality of his mismanagement is starting to affect people's lives in a way that it's hard for him to use those tools to undermine truth. When we were traveling to Texas last week for the live shows, packing is kind of annoying. You got a bunch of devices with different cords. I forgot my headphones, video editor Katie Lutz, had to borrow me hers. Luckily, I had a few things in order,

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ABC always be charging. Ridge is having their once in a year anniversary sale that's happening right now. Head to Ridge.com to get up to 40% off. It's up to 40% off at ridge.com, R-A-D-G-E.com. After you check out, they'll ask you where you heard about them. So make sure you tell them our show sent you. I want to talk to you a little bit about tech stuff because it ties into climate and it ties into the democracy issue. Now, one worry I have on that question about truth finding a way is AI.

And I think that when I look at AI, you know, there are all these potential opportunities, you know, discoveries and ways that it can make life better and solve problems. the two worries that are the most acute that you hear. One, one I hear publicly is climate worries. I'm interested in your take on that and the amount of energy it's using, particularly the data centers. And the other one I have is just that it will obliterate truth, right? That people will struggle to understand the difference between what is real and what is fake. And I'm just wondering how you think about the AI revolution as it relates to the issues you care about climate and democracy. First of all, I think it's important to note the relationship between, collective reasoning, which our founders assume that we would be able to use as our principal tool for self-governance, the relationship between our capacity for self-reasoning and fear. Fear is the enemy of reason. And during the time of our founding, Thomas Payne communicated that very clearly. And at one point said, we got to get this constitutional Convention going because there's an absence of a general public fear. And once one arises, we may lose this opportunity, a window of opportunity to have the Constitutional Convention.

I think that Donald Trump is constantly elevating public fear in part because he instinctively knows that it interrupts the operations of collective reasoning, which really is his principle in me. He says the news media is that they're the interruption. enemies of the people. What he really means is independent sources of knowledge that use the power of truth to help shine the light on a pathway forward. All of that's an enemy to him because he has his own design for the future. He doesn't want any interference from that. And I think that AI could be, already is a tool that he uses quite significantly. I don't. really know, Tim, whether or not our human resistance to being fooled is going to be triggered.

I see some signs that it already is. I see movies and music performances and cultural events where keen-eyed observers in the audience and say, wait a minute, that's a AI. And the producers are confronted with a, you know, a stampede away from the box office. And they say, okay, we'll take it out. Now, as it continues to improve, of course, that will once again change the, relocate the goalposts, I fear. But I do think that there is quite a lot of resistance to this new technology encroaching on the essence of what it is to be human. Now, you asked about the climate impacts of the data centers. They're very, very harmful. It shouldn't be an occasion for dumerism, but it's a serious problem.

It's a serious addition to emissions that have already been increasing. Now, there are those to give the technology of advanced AI at Stu who say that we are going to likely find, with AI's help, ways to significantly reduce emissions in lots of use cases. I've already seen that beginning to happen. Now, whether that happens on a scale that cancels out all the extra emissions from the data centers, I don't know. but they have a political problem in locating these data centers. And, of course, we have just had, in the last few days, really historic judgments in courts in two states in California and New Mexico that really brutally condemn the practices of Facebook and others. And what the court found, what the juries found was in,

intentional efforts to addict young preteens and teens with content they knew would cause them harm. Now, I bring that up in the context of AI, Tim, because that's the first generation of AI, these algorithms that control the attention flows on the internet and the consequent distribution of content. that's the first generation of AI, and it has been devastating to so many people, particularly young people, but I think a lot of other people as well. I mean, you know, we have in-cells now. Have you ever heard of in-cells in-sals in-cells in-cells? This body image thing.

You're against in-cells? Well, I'm sorry. People should not be celibate unless, you know, if they choose to. I'm sorry that the circumstances that have been created in part by these algorithms, where some of these young guys, I'm told, have to swipe left a thousand times to get one coffee with a girl that they want to meet. I mean, you know, this has all been analyzed in some depth, but the point I'm making is a bigger one. The first generation of AI has created new problems that are really quite serious. And we're trying to work through them now.

A lot of countries are banning social media for young people. people, I support that, banning the use of personal devices under a certain age. I support that. If we can't find any other solutions, then those need to be implemented. But my point is, if the first generation created problems of that magnitude, shouldn't we pause and take a breath and look at the challenges associated with this new generation of smart agents and models that are getting very close to human level intelligence. We'll almost certainly reach that level fairly soon, the next few years. And we're already seeing some layoffs of knowledge workers, as the phrase is, now being used. And so, yeah, it's a real challenge. And we're going to have

to work it through. You knew some of these guys, the tech oligarchs, and you worked with Elon on climate stuff, on Apple board. Elon might have had a mental break. But like, what is Tim Cook doing? Like, why are they sidling up to this administration, given all the threats we've laid out on the show? Well, Tim is my friend, and I'm going to defend him because he is a sensitive subject. Would you go to Melania's documentary? If you got invited to Melania's documentary at the White House, would you have gone? You know, I don't think he knew when he, I haven't talked to him about it, but I don't think he knew what was going to happen that same night. But I will tell you this.

It's an uncomfortable subject just because he's such a close friend. And I feel badly for him because the rock and a hard place that he's in between is really difficult for all of them. And so, yeah, I get the criticism very, very, very keenly. It's been disappointing. The cat is back. The cat food is back. The cat food ad is back. Our friends at Smalls are back.

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If you hadn't showed up, it would have been egg on my face. But the thing that people kept wanting me to ask you about was just the challenge of being vice president and being in that, being, you know, caught between your own political interests and your bosses. And, you know, I think we just saw this with Vice President Kamala Harris, having to deal with how to distance herself from President Biden and struggling with that on the campaign. And we can get a little more joy out of this. And we can get a little more joy out of this one. J.D. Vance is struggling with this right now, I think, trying to figure out how to navigate his own boss's disastrous decision in Iran. What do you think about those situations and in the context of how you had to deal with that? Well, you've asked the right person, Tim.

I'm a real scholar of the history of the vice presidency. Yeah, well, you had a, you know, you had a couple, your boss had a few peccadillos that you had to try to navigate. I barely remember them. Well, I'll tell you one thing. The key to making a worthy contribution as vice president always depends entirely on the quality of the relationship between the present and vice president. And for most of those eight years, Bill Clinton and I were damn near like brothers. I assured him at the very beginning that I would be completely loyal and that he would never have to worry about me, you know, leaking information. that would be damaging to him or whatever, you know, people accuse each other up. And I kept my word.

He knew I did. He kept his. Now, I was quite moved recently, Tim, when Mike Pence sought me out. It was at one of the two memorial services for Joe Lieberman. And this has been a little bit ago, but he asked if he could speak with me afterwards. And I said, well, of course. And when we talked, tears came to his eyes as he was speaking. He was so emotional.

But in a way that really caused me to bond with him, he told me how when he was elected as a freshman member of the House of Representatives in the 2000 election, three days later, he went to the joint session at which I. had the duty of counting the votes to make George W. Bush the next president. You know, it's one of the occasions where I use that quote I referred to earlier, generally do the right thing after exhausting every alternative. But in his experience, he said that that had a very profound impact on him. And I had actually earlier received an email from a freshman Democrat who had been sitting next to him at the time.

And he told me that it was very heavy. on his mind when he was faced with the decision of what to do in counting the electoral college votes when they were chanting, hang Mike Pence. And he wrote it in his new book. Anyway, that I think is one of the most dramatic examples of what a breach between the relationship between president and vice president can lead to. And I felt very badly for Mike, but I'm, a big fan of his moral courage in doing the right thing. I love that story. Can we, though, be bad for a second?

Do you get at least a little joy out of having to watch J.D. Vance squirm and navigating that question right now in this moment? John Freud is linked just below the seven deadly ones, right? Oh, okay. Yeah. It's venial, I think. It's been a while since I've been in Sunday school, but I think it's a venial. Well, your scholarship, even being able to recall the, the catafel.

Gore Vignal is superior to mine. Well, I try not to feel things like that. I think that both Trump and Vance and their entire administration are leading the United States astray in a major way. And let me add one other major example of how much harm they're doing. At the time when the entire world is shifting quickly to solar and wind and batteries and electric vehicles. I mean, the shift is historic. You know, it's like the Industrial Revolution except faster and broader. China is now dominating the most important business categories of the future now unfolding in all of those categories. And under the leadership of Trump and his administration, we're forcing taxpayers to subsidize a doubling down on the dirty, obsolete, losing energy economy of the past.

Crazy. It's worse than that. We're paying a billion dollars with somebody to stop building wind. To stop a windmill because Trump has some fantasy of unknown origin that it hurts whales or whatever. Maybe it's related to his resort in Scotland having to look at windmills. I don't know. And, you know, why should we have to care about all that stuff? But anyway, they are really seriously harming our economic future. By the way, we're still investing domestically in the private sector, the number one and number two jobs in the United States, according to the last Bureau of labor statistics. The two fastest growing jobs are solar panel, installer, and wind turbine technician. And if we want to participate in a larger way in profiting from constructing a clean and profitable

future for humanity, where the U.S. continues to play a leadership role in pointing out the values that most all human beings, especially Americans, feel are important to preserve, we need to get busy and change our direction and stop taking instructions from the fossil fuel polluters. Hello. You know what this reminds me of your ability to pivot back to climate, this important issue of yours? Zoron is doing this very well right now. You know, people are heckling him on the street, and he's just like, I'm just going to talk

about affordability. I'm going to go back to affordability no matter what. And you're doing that on climate, and I'm charged by that. Did I mention the training is May 1st and May 2nd in Nashville? You mentioned it. Climate Reality Project. One more training mentioned at the end. Okay, I have two more burning questions for you.

Then we'll do the training again. Then we'll let you go, I promise. Do you look at the Zoron kind of populist, you know, solution, DSA, you know, Bernie, solution for the Democrats' problems. Or on the other side, there's like the abundance solution has been put forward. I don't know if you're familiar with the abundance book. There's maybe some references back to your reinventing government efforts in that. Or could those two things work together?

And how do you kind of look at the future of where your party's going? You know, I have a slogan that I want to promote as the slogan for the future, Democratic Party, as an expression of what we need to do in this historic shift away from fossil fuels, affordable abundance. There you go. Affordable abundance. Because solar electricity is the cheapest electricity in the history of the world. It's unbelievable.

And it continues to come down in cost. But why is it, Tim, that a lot of the abundance folks, well, maybe they have focused on this. Well, let me just put it in the context of the abundance dialogue, which I think makes a lot of sense in so many ways. If you have a solar panel in California on your rooftop and you're paying for the electricity, compare that to a citizen of Australia who has the exact same solar panel,

same technology, same brand. Same inverter, same software. Why is the homeowner in California paying five times as much for the electricity as the homeowner in Australia? I don't know. Well, the answer to that is also the answer to a lot of similar questions. Why are people in the United States paying five times as much for medicine as people in other countries? why are taxpayers paying that billion dollars to one of the giant oil and gas companies to shut down a windmill that would provide cheaper electricity? Why are electricity rates still going up in the U.S.? When in Australia, everybody in Australia gets three hours of free energy per day now?

And the percentage is growing. Electricity rates are going down quickly in those areas that have made a commitment. They have affordable abundance. We get as much energy from the sun in one hour as the entire global economy uses for an entire year. That's abundance. And the fact that it's the cheapest in history makes it affordable abundance. But we are so hog-tied by the fossil fuel industry and their allies, you know, they're way better at capturing politicians than capturing emissions. And so they've captured and tied up the decision makers, and they've achieved hegemony in all policy areas affecting the attenuation of their obsolete business plan.

And so, you know, we need to take the value of both affordability and abundance. And back to your original question, I have been so impressed with how effective the new mayor is. in communicating. And I read a column, I forget who wrote it. I wish I could give the person credit about the so-called sewer socialists in the middle of the 20th century who were mayors in a lot of big American cities, especially in the Midwest, who called themselves socialists, but became enormously popular because they plugged the potholes and made the sewers function and the waterworks and the roads and everything. And I think that, you know, there's something so healthy about anybody who's going to take over as mayor and really grapple with the problems

that people care about the most. I think it was EJ. Dion, we can shout them out. That was a good article. And I'm happy. And I'm happy I wrote that. I have asked that question because that was a great answer. Okay. We're over. We're over that. I'm sorry. This is my last chance. You're still. You can just sign off if you want, but I have to do it. I would say probably like twice a year, you know, when I'm in the shower or watching the news and horrified. I just contemplate. I'm like, I wonder what Earth 2 is like where Florida hadn't done the stupid butterfly ballots and there had just been 700 more votes for Al Gore. And then maybe he wins and then, you know, he gets reelected and we probably don't go into Iraq. And then the financial crisis hits the Democratic Party. And so maybe John McCain

wins it to those. Anyway, I start to go down this imaginary path. And I'm just wondering, does that ever happen to you? Do you ever just sit alone at night and kind of think about Earth 2 where the butterfly balance hadn't screwed you over? Now, you're a very empathetic person, Tim. I've picked that up from all of your work. Can you imagine how much fun that is not for me? I can. I can't imagine it's not fun.

And that's the question. That's why I'm so curious. That's why I'm dying to know. But it's not fun, but maybe you can't help yourself. I don't know. No, I mean, the serious answer is also kind of a political answer. In this case, it's actually true that I focus on the future, absolutely. And speaking of the future on May 1st and May 2nd, in Nashville, Tennessee, there is an epic free climate reality training,

climate reality project.org. Former Senator Bill Frist, a personal friend of mine, former Republican. and leader of the center is also going to join me in this training. We have the greatest scientists and technologists and networking specialists. Anyway, ask Bill who he voted for in 2024 for me. I'm curious who he voted for. I don't know if he told us. Our friends at the Tennessee Haller, my buddy, Jessica, I'm going to tell them to promote your thing as well to make sure folks are going in Nashville, May 1st and 2nd. I have a Tennessee Haller hat. Oh, do you? I do too, mine's downstairs. Those are great dudes. They're doing great work. It's more of a comment than a

question. I just, I'm sure you know this. You're 77 years old. Spring chicken. Two years younger than Trump, younger than Biden. Maybe one more walk around the block. You know, New Hampshire is nice this time of year. I don't know, South Carolina, Charleston. I do sense a kind of a groundswell of a real desire for another septuagenarian. People are saying gore. Goar. Go on. You can hear it in the cornfields of Iowa. You know, it's worked. We've had these septuagenarians for long enough. We're kind of used to it.

I think there's a lane there. I do, too. And I appreciate you suggesting it. I'll give serious reflective thought to what you've said, Tim. All right, you think about that. Everybody, the trainings are in Nashville, May 1st and 2nd. It's a climate reality project. I'm so grateful for all the time.

Former Vice President Al Gore. what a treat. Thank you so much, Tim. Keep up what you're doing. It really seriously is extremely important. I'm a big fan of what you're doing. Keep it up. Thank you. Thank you. So everybody else will be back tomorrow.

We'll see you all then. Peace. Life isn't fair. Don't tell me. I know it. The Borg podcast is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper, Associate producer, Anseley Skipper, and with video editing by Katie Lutz, and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

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