The Bulwark Podcast - Alex Wagner: An Unlawful Administration

Episode Date: September 25, 2026

Trump pulled out all the stops at the state dinner to regale the guy who is working with our enemy: Not only has China been helping Iran target and kill American soldiers, it's also been shipping Tehran component parts for drones and missile guidance systems. Senate Republicans, of course, blocked an effort to end the war as one of their last votes before the midterms. Meanwhile, election deniers keep showing us that they're going to try to monkey around with the election results in November. Plus: Alex discusses her new book about the origin story behind today's supermajority Supreme Court, and warns that Republicans may try to steal another SCOTUS seat in the lame duck Congress. Alex Wagner joins Tim Miller for the weekend pod.show notes: Alex’s book, “The Steal” Tim’s ‘Take’ on Republican candidates trying to run from their record on the Iran war The WSJ on China shipping drone parts to Iran Tim’s playlist The Bulwark’s campaign to help the Haitian community of Springfield The Bulwark store

Welcome to the Buller Daily. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Excited to welcome back to the show, host of the podcast, Runaway Country, Crooked Media. She writes on Substack at How the Hell, dot, dot, dot, with Alex Wagner. And she's the author of a brand new book, The Steel, four right-wing hardliners, one Republican presidency and the raid on America's courts. It's Alex Wagner. Oh, buddy. It's great to see you. Welcome back. Thank you for doing this. We're doing this on Thursday evening, which I appreciate Alex doing because I'm flying very early tomorrow. to Ohio for our benefit fundraise for the Haitian community. Amazing. If you guys cannot go and you want to support them, we'll put a link in the show. It's Haitian Community Help and Support Center. And I saw a number today on how much we've raised. It kind of blew me away, actually.

So we appreciate the Bler community very much. That's so awesome. You guys are an awesome community. You have awesome hosts, and that is the right thing to be doing right now. So we'll have a number for you next week. But I think we'll be proud of us, but important work. And I've got a lot of rants to do. I've been building up on my rants for the show on Friday night, so you've got to carry me on this show, on the rants.

I love it. I'm ready to. I can't. He ain't heavy. He's my whole work. He ain't. I got it. I got a couple rants, just to be clear.

But just not as many. I would have. I want to start with the war vote. And kind of like a niche, a thing that maybe I'm only interested in when it comes to the war vote or maybe it's you. No. Because it was 50 to 49. I'm definitely. So in a situation where the war vote is 50 to 49, every vote is really the deciding vote.

Obviously, it was 50 against the war powers resolution that would have, you know, taken the war powers back to Congress where they exist. It's kind of unclear why that's needed, but whatever. It's neither here nor there. Almost all the Republicans voted against it. Still fully in solidarity as Trump. But one of the deciding votes was former majority leader Mitch McConnell, and I want to show a real video of him going to vote to keep the war going today.

A real video. A real video. Not a lot. Senator McConnell, can you say anything to us? Any word, any comment for the press? Even just the hello, sir? Did President Trump spend millions of dollars to remove Thomas Massey from Congress, but he's been silent about you?

Senator, any word for us? Have a good day, Senator. Can you say something, Senator, about a news conference? Will you have one? He's Senator. He's Senator. He's Senator McConnell. For the listeners there, he does not move.

His mouth stays open the whole time. But no words come out. His soul is slowly escaping to the green here after. That weekend at Mitch McConnell, he cast today, whatever that is, human, quasi-human figure, cast a deciding vote to keep us in the Iran war today. I, okay, so I have thoughts on this. Okay, great. I mean, I think everybody in Kentucky should be super outraged.

Thomas Massey should be most outraged of all. This person is a hollow vessel. But here's the thing, Tim. They all are. Like, does it matter if Mitch McConnell is a zucchini? Like, they're all zucchinis. They're all squash, as far as I'm concerned. The idea that Bill Cassidy and John Cornyn and, for that matter, Dan Sullivan and John Hustead,

but really the Yolo caucus of the Republican conference that, like, has nothing left to lose here, is still voting in support of a disastrous war that is likely to cost their party control of Congress. is like, it doesn't matter. Doesn't matter if you are functionally brain dead or not. Like, nobody's using whatever they got in their noggins at this point. Like, what's the point? Who cares? Yeah.

Well, we're doing vegetables. Bill Cassidy, I guess, would be, is a husk of a man. Yeah. Because he was the last one to vote because he stalled because he hemmed and honed as he's been doing people and saying Bill Cassidy is a deciding vote. Like I said, everyone was a deciding vote, really. So that includes Mitch. And there didn't need to be kind of a stall for deliberation with Mitch because

whoever is doing the voting for him just kind of just kind of just. went up there and did it. I take it. I don't know. We were trying to find out of the video. You couldn't say anything to the reporter. So could he say I? Unclear.

Yeah. I guess the bell. I keep coming back to the bell like breaking bad. You know? He does the bell for when he wants a yes or two bells for now. I don't know. Anyway, back to Cassidy, my senator. It's the same fucking thing as the, it's like several times this year where they've needed him,

where he kind of went, um, back and forth. And then in the end at the last second, Jan Barrasso talks to him. Gondoross, it must be a very compelling figure from Wyoming. And Bill Kastey votes to give the president, you know, continued, you know, unending powers for the stupid, pointless war that don't have a plan to get out of. And then, you know, it doesn't take questions after. Doesn't do anything when he's asked. He's like, I've got to go catch a plane.

It's like, what do you do? What are you doing? What are you doing? John Cornyn was literally castrated by this president. Yeah. Doesn't John Corny back in Texas is having fundraisers for everybody except Ken Paxton, the man who replaced him on the ticket, because he's still so angry about it. And yet the architect of that be cucking Donald Trump, he cannot bring himself to curtail his power in leading

the party off the cliff. It like there is, I really do think there's a special place in hell for people who know better. And by and in this situation, have the power to do something about it with almost no blowback. Like this is an issue that these guys, once they have their like lucrative lobbying gigs after they leave the Senate are not going to be punished for. Like this is, that's why they're doing it for rewards, right? Like Cassidy wants to be able to call John Thun and John Barrasso again next year when he's, when he's, you know, Pfizer is hired.

I mean, I don't, I think if they, if they did a favor to the party in Congress and helped show that Republicans have a backbone, they wouldn't be punished for it on the back end after they leave. I just, just the fear is so powerful, I guess. That's the only thing that you can imagine. Can I also just say, I know. Every vote is a tie-breaking vote or whatever, but the fact that John Federman is the only Democrat to vote with the Republicans on this makes me extraordinarily worried about a very narrow Senate majority that keeps John Federman in the catbird seat. Speaking of someone who is, I do not think, all there.

Why, Democrats got to win five. We're going to get down to the Senate map in a second. Well, that's kind of related. We'll do this related. The Michigan Senate race is one of the key ones. And I was struck by an ad that Mike Rogers did this week about the war. And I did a whole other video on the takes because this thing outraged me so much. If they want the long version, people can go do that where I went through all of these guys who are running now and coming up with different ways to try to tiptoe away from the war.

But the Rogers ad, I found the most interesting for a couple reasons, which we'll talk about. Let's watch together. Michigan families are struggling with the price of everyday life. Groceries cost too much. We have to bring prices down. The war with Iran needs to end and end quickly. When it does, energy costs will plummet. But Michigan families can't afford to wait for that to happen.

We need to do something now. We need to do something now. What? You know what that is? What is that thing that Mike, are you doing a big reveal or do we get to say? We don't know. No, we know. That's at that ends.

We have to do something. Well, yeah. Now. Suspend diesel exports. What would we? What is the something? Mike Rogers, he is the one and he's like, we've got to do it kind of quickly. my Rogers is the biggest cheerleader for this war.

You know, I mean, Rogers was a huge, he's a huge around hawk. He was on Trump's side and all of this. And back in May, he was talking about how, oh, boy, they might keep the straight of Hormuz, and that would be a disaster. And so he wanted to escalate in May. This is the time to take him out. Now the ad is, it needs to end and in quickly when it does, energy cost of employment. Was that true?

Even do we know? No. How? In fact, first of all, first of all, like the oil infrastructure has been so badly damaged. We won't go into the Saudi Arabian East-West pipeline, which was like the only alternative to the Strait of Wormuz. I'm not a petrochemical engineer, but the destruction of that pipeline could be seen from space. It's going to take a minute. The refineries have been offline. I mean, we're just talking about elevated gas prices through 2027 if the war is even over by then. I mean, we're now at the point where this may be a 2028 presidential election issue. That's how bad it's going.

We need to do something now. Mike Rogers, Colin. First of all, you can almost see him, me like, how does this work? I walk in here and the food is available for free or do I pay for it? They put him in like a brand new vest because that, I guess, speaks grocery store chic. He's never gone grocery shopping in his life. He's like, do I look at how do how do I decide how firm the produce is? What is it?

He looks very uncomfortable. And I just, I love it. I think they should put it on a bumper sticker. Mike, and it's just so VEP, it's so Jonah. It's kind of like Jonas' campaign slogan. We need to do something now.

What? TBD. TBD. Does Mike Rogers want us to end the blockade? He wants us to spend diesel exports. I have knowing nobody has a solution. Right. Like, nobody has a solution because the only solution is one.

I mean, whatever. I don't want to big foot you on geopolitics. But like, please, big foot me. She Jinping is the key to maybe winding down the Iran war. And Donald Trump says that's, that says that's off the table. We're not talking to him about that.

No, no. Well, no, we're too busy. We have some other things to talk to Xi about today. So they're walking around, as I mentioned, we're taping this early evening. So they have the state dinner tonight, not in the ballroom. Ballroom isn't ready yet. That's sad. So we'll see how that goes.

I mean, and if something really crazy happens, like Trump takes out his little penis or something. I don't know. Like, my flight's early, but I will get up early enough to do like a little five-minute topper on this if something really crazy happens. But it's what's happened so far at the time of this taping, Trump showed she the auto pen picture of Biden that he has in the hall of presidents or whatever they created. And he was really kind of giving a little jocular punch on the shoulder. And she kind of pretended to laugh at that.

And then this was a big one. This is from Eric Doherty, who's one of the big Trump propagandists right now out there. He writes this, kind of a pool report of his own from today. Justin Trump reveals President Xi is a huge fan. of his new helipad because it's made of granite. He has a great interest in granite. He likes granite. He's an expert on stones, Trump said, and he loves a good granite.

This might be Trump's favorite part of the entire visit, as he loves nothing more than presenting his construction projects to important people. It's beautiful. The White House needed this. The White House needed the big granite win in this debate. I mean, not, you know, access for soybean farmers, not new rules around AI, S-I, excuse me, not tariff relief, not. not going after she, by the fact that he helped Iran kill three American soldiers.

None of that. The big win was the granite. It really does feel like maybe calculated sabotage at this point, right? Like to literally have the Chinese premiere there at a moment when the essential issue is addressing what's happening in Iran, China is literally helping Iran target Americans and kill them. It's the major buyer of Iranian oil. They are helping the Iranians launder money from their oil sales. They are helping build chemical precursors for ballistic missiles that Iran is using. They're giving them drone parts.

I mean, Iran is a client state of China at this point. And not only is the president not addressing that, but he's going back to the fucking helipad. Yeah. Like what an embarrassment. Also, they're wearing weirdly matching outfits in that whole little moment, which makes the whole thing even more sort of twin peaks. Like, how could this serality actually be playing out at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue? And it's really, just mind-boggling that this is happening. There's this old tweet from 2012 that Trump sent.

Obviously, there's always a tweet about Obama. And, you know, they had bugles, I guess, or something for she. And it's like this is who Trump was complaining about the bugles. But it's like the troops are on their knees as he comes down in the plane. Again, Chairman Shee has been responsible for the deaths of our troops. They're prostrate in front of the red carpet. Trump's just showing off the making fun of Biden and showing off the granite. and like saying that AI,

the AI stuff's cool, don't worry about end of the world. I mean, it's just full prostrate giving in to she and all Trump wants is like to feel like a fancy boy. I mean,

I think it's almost treasonous, right? Like, this... He accused the media of treason during the trip. Right. So the media, you and me, we're treasonous. The commie leader,

great, actually. Good bro. Like, love the commie dictator that's helping kill our troops. The media covering what's happening. treason. I don't know what word you want to call it, but it's certainly not pro-America. Can you imagine any other moment when literally the United States president is meeting with the

head of a foreign country and the press of the foreign country can get into the White House, but not the American press? And the president is coutowing, both literally and figuratively, waiting from at the bottom of the steps of his plane as he arrives, like an eager beagle. and then giving him quarter and celebrating him as he is helping architect the deaths of American service people abroad. I mean, like, I can't think of any parallel. And if that's not treasonous, I don't know what is.

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The narcissism is in full flower, isn't it? Narcissism is that? What is the? Who was? Is it Malcolm Gladwell? I think it was Malcolm Gladwell. It was like, if like someone mentions your name across the room at a party, like, if humans, like we're trained to catch that sound in a way that we would not be able to lock in on their conversation otherwise.

Really? Yeah. So anyway, this is like that. Wall Street Journal was tracking 70,000 hours of podcasts, liberal podcasts and conservative. And it's total mentions of Trump per hour. And by like the inauguration, for example, or the election, it was even. They were both the same. It was about 40 an hour during the election and then about 25 an hour by the inauguration.

Then it goes on liberal, a little bit more, conservative, a little bit less. The Iran war starts. Now, the conservative podcasts are mentioning him like never. And we're keeping steady over here. I assume I'm being counted in the liberal side. Sometimes I get mis-miss, sometimes people are, you know. Misdiagnosed. Yeah, looking at the 2015 census when deciding where to put me.

They use your dead name. Yeah, exactly. But I mean, I think that is like very telling. I do too. If I'm running a conservative podcast today, like, what do I even put on my rundown about the she-Trump meeting? Like there's nothing. I guess if you're in the total cult, you can do the granted.

Right. But if you're one step over from the cult, if you're Ben Shapiro, like you wish you're in a cult, but you have a little bit of policy ideology you're still thought of. What do you even talk about? You don't. You talk about the WNBA or whatever. talk about Lindsay Clancy. I mean, that's like the other thing they track. They're like the engines of Lindsay Clancy, which is not like traditional manosphere fodder, is getting more clicks than Donald

Trump. To me, this tells me they're tuned out and turned off and they may not show up with the polls. Like this doesn't mean that they're all like suddenly, you know, Kamala Harris stands or whatever or Asoff stands, I guess, more to the point. They are, they just want to pretend and he doesn't exist anymore. And like, that's a very bad look for a bunch of Republicans who were on the ticket in November. It's a long way to go. I mean, I guess eventually you can start talking about 2028, but Trump's going to delay that as long as possible. Yes.

It's a long slog of writing, of doing podcasting if you're not wanting to talk about the president of the United States and you have a politics podcast. Yeah, well, then you sort of try and find other men in the orbit that you can, rail against like James Tala Rico, who's like now Katnip for right-wing Manusphere podcasts. Let's talk about that race. I always hate to cheat on Sarah by talking about other focus groups, but it was a delicious New York Times focus group that asked, these are Trump voters who are, I guess, are undecided or independent or something. They were Trump voters from 2024. Let's get into the specific candidates. When you hear the name Ken Paxon, what comes to mind? Crook, crook, crooked, bad.

amoral, disgusting, morally corrupt, disgusting, corrupt bathrooms. There was one lady that was a good one for him because there was one lady that associated with him with protecting girls' bathrooms. That's the best interpretation of that. No, she followed up. Like when you're saying disgusting, gross bathrooms, I don't think that that's a positive.

I know, trust me. I was wondering that. And so I went further and went her follow up. The smarter take is, you know what it's about. Or follow-up answer. So I have, you know, very Talariko-Hopi impelled. He was up six in a polar oil this week. A little bird he told me that there's a super PAC coming in with huge money for him soon,

maybe next week. I think that the gap between Cruz and 18 and Paxton is the key thing. I don't, Talaika might be marginally better than Beto. The environment, I think, is marginally better. Yeah. But pretty similar candidate. The gap between Cruz and Paxton, I think, is wider than people, particularly like, left progressive people who, like, look at them and they're both gross and disgusting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's like, I do think that that is, that potentially might be the death now.

Yeah. Ken Paxton, I mean, if you've ever heard him open his mouth, he's like the least compelling speaker and he doesn't even read Texas. Like, that's the thing I don't get. Like, it's one thing if someone's intensely charismatic and really can, you know, move the crowd and has an aweshucks attitude that really plays well. He has no Riz at all whatsoever and also happens to be wildly corrupt and is known in the state of Texas for his corruption. So yeah, like I think he's a much weaker candidate than Greg Abbott or Ted Cruz or any prominent sort of Texan who has some baggage. Ken Paxton is the worst and has nothing to offer either.

I mean, like he's trying to make a late play on, you know, tracking the water usage of AI data centers, but the whole Republican 180 in Texas in particular on the issue of AI data centers, which is alarming people in that state and really animating them. I mean, for my podcast, I talked to a former Paxton staffer

who's now dealing with the data center issue down there and is like, you don't even understand. Like, this is, first of all, there's huge bipartisan support, real grassroots activism on it from the right. And like, Paxton and Abby have been so on the wrong side of it and they're not assisted by the president

who day after day continues to double down on his support of it. Like the Republican party in Texas is coded pro AI and that's a problem. The other thing that's interesting to play is Paxson won't debate him, Telerico. And just before we started, got on, Tel Rico's on stage somewhere in Texas and said

that he is now challenging. Trip Fest? Is he a trip fest? Yeah, he's a trip fest. I think so. It says Texas Tribune in the background. Shout out, Evan. And he says, I want to debate on Fox. You want to meet me anywhere else? I'll prove them. I'll go there.

And I love this play. And I thought it was the one thing that I think is underrated as a mistake of the Harris campaign strategy. People talk about the Rogan stuff and all that. But I was like she should have accepted the Fox debate. There's something about it. It toughens you up just by going. Totally. And it's really important for Tala Rico, I think, to do it too in specific.

And as it would have been important for Harris, because they've been the victims of like undue, sort of shaming around how tough they are. And in Talaico's case, like, what kind of may. is he. So to say I'm going into the lion's den come meet me there, bitch is good look. That's good. The other story, I had Mary Paltola on the podcast yesterday, which was interesting.

The timing was interesting. You know, sometimes podcast magic and the timing, you know, sometimes the fates work for you on timing and other times not quite as much. Anyway, you've seen the New York Times story. I'm curious your thoughts because you were, you went a little bit separate from some of your pod

cohort over there on Platner. He were a little harder on him than they were. I don't want to compare Platterner's behavior to Paltolus at all. No. But I was just skeptical. I understood the appeal of Platner. And I just always was like, there's just something that rubs me maybe the wrong way about this guy. And then it turns out that that was maybe the correct line of thinking when it came to-

You weren't alone on that instinct. It just you happened to be alone. It was a female instinct mostly. Not entirely, but a lot. The Peltola thing, obviously different. I think you hear some people in the discourse being like, every boss is terrible in D.C. You only hear this about. Amy Klobuchar.

You only hear this about women and there's a sexist element to it. That's some of it. You know, there's some people who are like these, me included, which is like some of these, whoever leaked the screenshot of the text where she said, retard or whatever. And then I know, I'm knowing, what was the Scrubs line? Something so some Scrubs reference. I nothing you. I nothing you.

And then the Stafford hearted it and then leaked it. I'm like, sorry, you can't, you can't heart the text and then leak that you were offended by it. And then be indignant. Okay. Love it. What? Anyway, what was your overall take on the story? I don't like this story, Tim.

You don't. I do not like this story. I do agree we judge women harshly and sometimes asymmetrically in terms of like how they deal with their time and power compared to men. But I don't know, like using the F word, not fuck the other one to slur gay people saying like fuck these bitches. and I hope that woman dies from a botched abortion. Like, those are soul corroding statements. That's not that cool. That is not.

I mean, I don't know. And like getting physical with your staff, even if nobody gets hurt, it's just I have, you know, we work with people. I've had people that work for me in like, you never pushed the producer on the circus? You can not do that. Absolutely not.

Not what? I mean, now watch. Someone's going to be like, that bitch push me. No, you can't. And listen. I got up in Rick Redell's grill during the circus where there was very nearly a gay push. There was very nearly a gay push.

Yeah, it's one thing if you are having a debate with someone, but the power dynamic is such that these are staffers that are literally cowering in fear. Some of them are like they're talking about the strain. The other part that disturbs me is it's not one or two. It's multiple waves of staffers are trying to leave the office. I just, I don't, I don't like this story. I don't. I think it does not reflect well on her. You know, it's a real shame that this is how she conducts herself in private. Like, it's, it's not good. That's my attitude. It's not good. I don't know. I'm not going to sugarcoat it. Like, I genuinely believe that women get a rough ride and a wrong ride a lot of times. But this is just alarming behavior. And you can't say this stuff. I appreciate that. You can't do this stuff. I don't disagree. I don't like the timing. I don't know. There's something about that that I, don't like. The timing is suss. I don't like the timing at all. It feels very, very oppo research, like nice try, like September 23rd or whenever this went to file.

But like, no, that part is very questionable. That part is max of, you know, the Sullivan campaign. Yeah. I hate Dan Sullivan so much as also part of my blinding. You know, it's kind of the family feud element of it. Like, he was one of my kind of Republicans back then in the old census, dead named Tim, you know. like my friends consulted for him. I don't want to pretend like we were pals or whatever, but like that was my, you know, he was a national security, you know, kind of conservative and social issues

wasn't really his thing, kind of Republican, you know? And it's like, and now you're just sitting there quietly while Donald Trump gets down on his knees for the Chinese. Voting against the Iran war authorization. Yeah. Yeah.

And like you're the guy, your president, it's like getting on his knees for the Chinese communist. you don't say anything, you don't distance or something. So anyway, this is how the brains work. And this is what rationalization is, right? So I appreciate that you didn't sugarcoat it. Well, but I will say, you know,

I guess people are bringing up the specter of Amy Klobuchar and the salad with the comb. That did not diminish her political career. No. And she rode her toughness right the fuck back maybe into the governor's seat come November. Yeah. I think this probably helps in Alaska too.

Because the other thing is Alaska, you know, just the makeup and all that. And some of these states, if you're a Democrat, you know, there's the balance, right? You're trying to win over spring voters. You're also trying to galvanize your base. It's not like there's huge college campuses or whatever or people are going to be a fed. You know what I mean? In Alaska, right? Fishermen.

Yeah. I think they've got bigger problems. People paying $2682 for gas or whatever. She said they were paying on some of their motorists. You got bigger fish to fry quite literally. There we go. That's what I was looking for. You flagged for me a story that I've not covered.

I've had a text a couple times. And it's one of these things where I'm just like, it's hard for me to follow exactly what's happening. But the Riverside County Sheriff Chad Bianco, he's also a key as a candidate for governor in California, right-wing guy. A court forced him to return. 650,000 ballots he had seized. 650,000. I don't like that sentence. Ballots he had seized from election officials as part of an investigation into voter fraud that had no basis in fact, according to other.

officials. What's happening here? He was going to have his deputies count the ballots because his tinfoil-hatted election conspiracist allies in the state were like they counted more votes than were actually registered. Now, apparently there may have been a discrepancy of up to a hundred votes. Are we talking about the first round of the governor's race or are we going back? Sorry, this is for a measure to do the blue gerrymander of the California congressional districts. It to redraw the state's congressional maps to give Democrats a five-seat advantage or to capture five more seats. And it passed in Riverside County, I think by 56 percent. It passed statewide in California by 64 percent. And that really pissed off conservatives in Riverside County, including an especially chef Brad, Chad.

Sorry, Chad. Brad and Chad, whatever. It's it really, tomato tomato. Exactly. And what's alarming to me about this is like I am worried genuinely about the chain of custody after the midterm election ballots are cast. I'm worried about the chicanery inside the machinery of government around the counting and the certification. I just worry about that. And the fact that this, you know, Gibroni and Riverside County on a whim, on his unilaterally decided he was going to seize, you know, three quarters of a million ballots to have his deputies go over and it got them.

like seized the ballots. Like I just, I worried that we're going to be on November 5th being like, oh shit, remember when they showed us what they were going to do and we didn't pay attention? It is, I am less worried about violence at the polls and like direct voter intimidation and way more worried about the fact that there are Trump election deniers at every level of the government, including and especially the Department of Homeland Security. And that they're going to be able to manipulate the system or cry foul even obviously when there isn't any to undermine confidence in the results and throw certification into question.

Like, I just, that's the part of all of this that I worry about. And this story to me gives, it gives me chills. I mean, he's been ordered to return the ballots. But like, you know, this is of a suite with the FBI seizing the 2020 ballots in Georgia and the data in Arizona and them interviewing election officials in Wisconsin. I mean, the, like, wing and monkeys have been flapping all over this country. And there's some strategizing afoot. And it didn't work. So I always have two minds about all this stuff, right? So like they keep failing. So I just, I just think that's important to say. It doesn't mean that we're not worried about it or wandering. On the other side of that coin, this story finds something that I do worry about that I don't feel like I talk about

very much. So I just think it's worth sort of hashing over a little bit, which is a lot of times the discussions of the threats are this top-down, Trump administration, nefarious, ICE at the ballot box, et cetera. But it's been since 2020 now, this is the third election cycle. And there's just been a lot of turnover in random-ass jobs, like election official jobs, county leadership, and particularly red states, red places, sheriffs. And if you look at the playing field for these Senate races, we're just talking about Texas. Like, think, I think about how many counties are in Texas. Think about any fucking lunatic

Maga sheriffs and election officials there are in random counties in East Texas, like between Houston and the Louisiana border, obviously West Texas. It's like a lot, a lot and a lot of votes there. It's not dense, but if you add it all up, it's a lot of

territory, a lot of votes. And that is something like troublemaking kind of bottom up. It's something that doesn't get quite as much attention. And I think this is a example of that. I know that Mark Glyss and all these guys are looking at all that, but I do think that's a concern. And that's something everybody can do in their community, particularly if you're in a red community. It's like, as being a poll watcher, keeping an eye on that. Also, take an interest

in who is running the elections, who the sheriff is. You know, it's important to know who these actors are. You know, Texas is going to be a close race. Really close. That's the thing that we're, I just keep coming back to it. Like, if the Senate hinges on Tala Rica's 22,000 vote win, So that's a real dicey scenario. I'll talk about the courts. I'm talking about what's happening right now at the courts, and we'll get to your book and go backwards in time a little bit too. The Alito Thomasing is interesting.

I saw our mutual pal Chris Hayes tweeted that he would be not surprised if one of them retired, if the Democrats do get the 52, a big enough Senate majority. I've been saying this. I think I told Chris that. Okay. So he stole that take from you. Yes. I've been talking about this incessantly for the last two and a half weeks.

He is a take thief. He really is. Ed Wheelan. I have a couple things about Ed Willen. If you don't know him, he's an interesting character. He's like a courts, conservative courts policy guy. He swims in the federalist circle, federal society, excuse me, world. Very conservative guy.

But I guess had taken some few principled stands on a few things when the, you know, right is gone crazy. So I watch his speed just kind of as like a, this guy is way more right than I am on court stuff. but generally a fair broker. And it was interesting that he responded to Chris saying, he would be surprised. He doesn't think that they're going to retire. And so, who knows?

But I just thought that was interesting because he might be in a position to hear. I do wonder if the hubris of Thomas and Alito is greater. You know, the ego and the hubris is greater than like the practical judgment. Well, it would appear yes, right? It's just kind of such an outrageous possibility that in a season of outrage,

we have to entertain it. I mean, it's hard for me to imagine that a 76-year-old man who's really close to retirement is just going to bet on father time not coming and waving his scythe in his direction in the next 10 years. I mean, because that's truly like a possibility

if Democrats win the Senate and then there is a Democratic president for two terms, which is totally within the realm of possibility. Wow. Okay. Well, I'm just saying if you're a little making the calculation that like we're just trying to get through tomorrow baby you think that if you're a lifetime appointee if you're part of the council of elders that's steering this country off

the cliff then like you do have to consider this also with the example of ruth bader ginsberg it's like that that has to echo in the back of their increasingly hollow minds and i just think alito has become such a partisan and such an operator in service of a deeply conservative agenda it's just hard for me to imagine he's not considering it. Having said that, it would be such a catastrophic blow to norms. I think it would really upend business in the Senate. If John Thune and the lackeys on the Judiciary Committee move forward with the Supreme Court nomination process in the lame duck session of Congress, like hello DC statehood, hello Puerto Rico statehood, goodbye filibuster, like it's all on the table because there will be retribution when the Senate goes into Democratic

I can't. I mean, I just think it's an interesting thought exercise to imagine what the consequences of that action would be. And by the way, Democrats should start saying it just to dissuade these justices from retiring because they do absolutely pay attention to politics. I agree. Democrat should start saying it. It's interesting to think about it. Now I don't know which I'm rooting for. You want it. You want them to go hand. I like the payback. I like the idea of the payback. But also, I like the idea of Democratic president and these guys. starting to have regrets as they start to age about the choice that they made and who and who their replacement you know whose hands are a replacement would be in. It's interesting it's

interesting exercise. I don't know. Alito's wife is a total lunatic. Yes. Both of their wives. Ginny Thomas. I mean, Ginny Thomas should be in jail. Yeah. So I guess we should throw that out there. I mean Jenny Thomas was actively plotting to overturn the democracy of the country. It's pretty strange that Kurt Thomas is still in the Supreme Court. It was one of my rants for a while. I don't ever talk about this anymore, but thank you for letting me bring it back up. It's like, I could talk about it for ever. What did they talk about at the dinner table? I mean, she was planning a coup and one of the nine Supreme Court justices was sleeping in the same bed with her.

Maybe they have a Lucy and Desi situation. I don't know. But like they had a lot of face time. I assume the coup she was plotting was, you know, came up from time to time. Just like the giant insurrectionist flag that was being flown over the beach house at the Alito house. Like, he didn't not notice that. These guys, as I talk about in my new book, booked him are dyed in the wool partisan warriors.

Like they have been hiding behind originalism, but they don't even try and do that anymore. They're just out there in those streets trying to move the country ever rightward. The other thing Wheeland said, I mean, I want to go back to the rest of the book stuff, is this. Sure hope that Senate ours are making plans to confirm all remaining judicial dominies during post-election lame duck period. The prospect that Demsville in control of the Senate seems increasingly likely. it might not happen, but best to be prepared if it does. I think that's interesting advice.

But I think we're at this point now. We're like, the Democrats aren't going to confirm anybody. No. Right? Or do you think that they're still, we're still in old 2018 mode where we're going to cut a deal? We're going to cut a grand bargain with John Thune and blah, blah, blah. I don't think so. I mean, I think there are two data points that's, I mean, I don't know.

Is Chuck Schumer still going to be majority leader if they win the? Senate, I don't know. But like the fact that they were willing to shut down the government over ice killings and Obamacare subsidies expiring, to me says they have some fight in them. And they're going to have to get their shit together if they want to win the presidency in 2028 and show that they have some gumption. So like if Alito or Thomas retires or dies or someone dies, they should keep that seat open. Right. And it can be a 5-3 majority. Obviously. Yeah, but what about lower courts, though? Same, right? No, they shouldn't confirm. I mean, listen, I'm someone that thinks that, like, after they started

slaughtering Americans in the streets and the fact that they're trying to destroy black and brown lives across the country is reason enough to hold all funding up. Like, the sins being done in our name are like far exceed whatever the sort of normal parliamentary procedure for federal funding is. So, yeah, I mean, I take a more, I think, radical view on all of this. But yeah, yeah, I mean, this is an unlawful administration that has no business appointing anyone who's supposed to oversee the judicial branch. I'm with you. I think that that's where they're going to be. We'll see.

It'll be something we'll monitor closely. Give us the elevator pitch for the book. Then I've got a couple of things I want to shout with you about. So I am incensed, obviously, by the injustice of the judicial branch. And I wanted to get at the sort of origin story of how it became such a partisan battlefield. And specifically, how the right. launched a heist to take the Supreme Court that we are now, you know, a stolen court that we are now living in. I say stolen because it's so at odds with American public opinion and the direction.

I think most Americans want the country to go in and they're unanswered, they answer to no one. I get shit from this from my former Republican. I'm not anymore, but like I, because I was saying this a couple years ago when I was, you know, still, you know, had like the normal Republicans would quote tweet me and dunk on me and try to go back. They've all, I'm a lost cause to everybody now so nobody notices or cares when I say a shot like this. But they literally stole a seat. If you look at Garland versus Ginsburg, and it was the same situation,

it was actually a worse situation. It was much closer to the election when Ginsburg died. They replaced one. They didn't replace the other. Like, it should be five, it just should be five four. Like that's period. And can I just say,

who did Obama nominate to Phil Scalia? Merrick Garland. Merrick Garland, a member of the Federalist Society and a Republican as a hat tip to fucking Republicans. So like, don't at me that this is a dual, like, you know, bastardization of the independence of the judicial branch.

Like, conservatives have been much more cutthroat about ensuring their justices pass a conservative litmus test. So the book really traces the origin of these essential organizations who help shape this moment and this court, including the birth of the Federalist Society, the birth of the moral majority, the birth of the Heritage Foundation.

And it tells that story through the plot of four henchmen of the apocalypse, Robert Bork, Ed Meese, Paul Wyrick, and Joe Coors, who together function as a kind of crackerjack squad that launches a strategy to make the court in conservative's image and to launch a legal theory by which they can unwind decades of social and civil rights progress with the deep pockets of Joe Coors and others who make it all possible. It's really a heist story, Tim. I like heist movies. It's a New York Times bestseller. Congratulations. Someone told me it's like a beach read for politics. Like it's a readable story. It's not, you'll laugh, you'll cry.

It's propulsive. I do like emotional, I don't know about being on an emotional journey when thinking about the downfall of our republic. Because I grew up in Republican circles, I know quite a bit about me, Sinwyrick, and Bork. Those who don't should purchase the book and they can learn more. I want to talk a little bit more about Joe Coors. Because he's a fellow Coloradoan. I've drank their beer a few times.

Pete Coors, is that nephew, a nephew, son? Pete is the, I believe, the nephew of Joe. Yeah, nephew. So I got to know him a little bit. He ran a horrific campaign for Senate, God, 20 years ago now, probably. And there are other Coors kind of dotting around. But I didn't, I just couldn't pull from my memory, like exactly what Joe's role in all this was. So why don't you just impart a little bit of knowledge on us on that?

Joe and Bill Cors are both avowed racists, paranoid conspiracists who believe zip codes are an insidious government plot. They are so racist. I'm intrigued by that theory. Well, I mean, it's the only thing he was right on. But they enclose literature from the racist John Birch Society, along with Corps' employee paychecks in the 1960s. They are very anti-civil rights.

they say explicitly, if the Civil Rights Act passes, we're going to have to fire a bunch of you and hire blacks in your place, like explicitly racist. Cors is radicalized in the 60s by both civil rights progress and by what he sees happening in neighboring California with student protests and sit-ins and Berkeley, and he thinks academia has become liberal,

is liberalism run amok? Something needs to be done to stop these professors and their long-haired students from destroying the American legacy. And so he takes the money that he's, made from Coors Beer, and he starts funneling it into conservative causes. And one of the causes he funnels it into is a nascent organization created by Paul Weirich, who is not a household name, but is really, really should be. I mean, he's a brilliant mastermind of the right. He's starting,

he wants to start a think tank that will answer the think tanks on the left and help hold squish conservatives into account once they get elected. And he comes up with a name for this organization, and it's called the Heritage Foundation. And heritage not hate. Yeah. You know. And so he's the money man. He's the money man.

And he funds other organizations, but he's a key player in getting these things off the ground. And why Rick and course work in tandem a lot. And together help, you know, create the modern day arch conservative movement within the Republican Party. All right. So you went back and learned all of this. You learned all the dirty tricks. It took a long time. I know.

And, you know, it's kind of like an Ocean 13 type thing. So people should go read it. And it will be made into a movie, Jesse Eisenberg. People say, I mean, that's, I'm manifesting. I think it should be. Melissa Murray thinks Jesse Eisenberg could play Paul Wyrick. Paul Ryrick is so ugly. Paul Lyrick looks like an Easter egg.

Everyone's more beautiful on screen than they are in life. No, you mean like Paul Giamatti to play. Paul Giamatti could play. I don't think. No, Ed Meese needs to be played by Phillips Seymour Hoffman, rest in peace. All right. I forget what Ed Meath looks like.

Oh, yeah, that's right. He doesn't have a Mr. Potato Head blonde from Oakland, but with a real punitive streak. Yeah, Ed Meese has kind of a baseball glove of a face. Is he? In fact, he was one of the signers to the amicus brief filed with Aileen Cannon that said that... Brilliant.

The special counsel, Jack Smith, had no business taking Trump to court for the Mar-a-Lago document scandal, which she listened to and dismissed the case. Great. Still messing with our lives. Love that. Love that he's still around. Ed Meese. Robert Bork's dead.

Sorry. Still messing with our lives, Rob. We'll keep it in. Ed Meese. Bob Bork's dead, 2012. Bob Borg is also still messing with our lives. He's also a really hit. Giamatti could definitely play both Lyric and Bork.

He could play. Paul Giamani could play. Yeah, kind of like how when Eddie Murphy plays like multiple, like the nutty professor when he plays like multiple characters. Or Martin Short. Like doesn't Martin Short do a lot of different characters? Okay. Here's a big question that you got, though, which is like, all right, Democrats, now what?

All right. So they got behind the ball. There's going to be a lot of proposals out there. A lot of this stuff is a little bit of, we're in dreams. land. But like what is realistic? Like what dream, I guess? What is a realistic dream? Dream with

me, but don't be crazy. You dream on the vis-a-vis the courts or just generally if they get power back? Yeah, the Supreme Court. I think that they got to really look at. I mean, I am old enough. It's hard to for it to not be in La La La Land. But do you remember when Rick Perry was in favor of Supreme Court like term limits? Do you remember that? You probably don't.

I remember. It was like the one good idea Rick Perry ever had. I don't remember that. That sounds more like a John Huntsman idea than a Rick Oh, it was a Rick Perry idea. I'm pretty positive. It was a Rick Perry idea. I like it. The idea that the course of American history is being dictated by the planking routine of some octogenarians is not what the founding fathers imagined, right? This was my problem with RBG, hey geography.

Like, we should not be worried about the health of old, I mean, we should be worried about the health of our elders period. But like the aging process should not have any direct impact on the course of this. country. And that is, it is the worst kind of gerontocracy ever. Something needs to be done. I think that they should really look at court expansion. I mean, they stole a seat. So take two more. That's good for the goose is good for the gander, kind of. Two geese. I don't know. I mean, I just think we're living in desperate times. Like, they're doing things that are at odds with, like wildly at odds with both the health and safety and desires of the American public. Yeah, I don't know. I started one of my buddies today who's like a little non-political.

I understand this feeling, right? The feeling that for people who don't like listen to our podcasts and aren't like fully consumed in all the details and the back and forth and don't know the history of unfit, foul play, right? There's like, I think that there's a tiredness now from some people. And this is what Biden tapped into in 2020. It was this tiredness. It was like, hey, let's restore the soul of America, right? And I think that I get that.

I get why people want that. but it's just like that's just not where we are like there has to be recompense like there just does like I just don't I don't I don't see any other way the worry then is that it's an endless cycle and that you know we're just kind of punching each other as we decline the American Republic and this is a nice way to end the Friday podcast to the bulwark but do you have any do you have any thoughts on that yeah I was I would just say if it's just for partisan gain then yeah it will be an and some of it will be partisan punchback but some of it will be partisan punchback but some of it's

of it should just be shoring up the institutions to make them strong enough so that it's not just norm and protocol and tradition that determine whether our democracy survives. Just the light times on this Friday. Do you have anything else? We're going to talk about our sex podcast that we're going to launch in January of 2027. Nine, seven? Sex podcast? Yeah, I guess.

Email the email list. I want to see what kind of questions we would get. Is it like a Dr. Drew thing or is it, are we doing? How many times do I have to pitch this to you? We are looking at American life through the lens of sex, which is very, it is the thing that animates. I mean, it animates arguably the entire like mannosphere. It animates like what's happening down in Texas,

both Paxton and Tala Rico. It animates what's happening in Alaska with Mary Paltola. Gender is a, you know, gender and sex are forever commingled. Like it is like, I would argue the animating force in American life, right? right now. And that's... So it's not like... And then, you know, whatever. No, nobody has to talk about like reverse cowgirl if they don't want to.

Oh, maybe people do want that. Well, maybe there will be time for that, but it doesn't have to be an X-rated podcast. It's just going to be a different way in, a portal in to all the stuff that's happening. I think your husband will be fine with it. Yeah. I know, but I want it to be good, you know, and for it to be good. Well, it can be juicy too. Can it be good to get people to want to...

listen. We can talk about Lindsay Clancy as well. I don't know anything about that. What? I just, every once in a while, don't you see a news thing that comes by that you're just like, I'm checking out of this one. And I was just like a mom that killed their kids. It was too depressing. It's very depressing. And I read like one tweet about it. And then I just, I, I do have an ability. When Trump won the first time, I went and got a yoga practice going in Oakland at yoga. This does not track. Trina. I did. And one of the things, my, my, whatever you call it, yoga teacher. Jamila on the weekends.

One thing she taught me was kind of the ability, you know, kind of an extra layer of compartmentalization of your sight and ears. That's not what yoga teaches or supposed to teach you. Okay, well, this was a little, it was a little bit of a woo-woo yoga class. And I got very good at blocking out certain sounds. Like she would be like, we would do the breathing and the exercises,

but it was like, don't listen, you know, stop hearing the air conditioner or the bird or the talking. And so I learned how to do that. And I've incorporated it into my news consumption life where everyone's like, I'll see a word like Clancy and my brain just doesn't. My brain just shuts it off. It's just like, I see nothing on this. And I just keep on moving.

So I really, I don't even know what happened. The kids died and she got off. It's all I know. Well, it's, yeah, it was declared a mistrial, but it just raises, there's deep gender divide over whether or not a woman would do this because she had severe postpartum depression or whether she's a murderous villain. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm, I'm sitting that one out. Yeah, I think. I think I'm going to sit that one out. I don't know that Lindsay Clancy fits in with sex, but gender is part of it. But also, you know, we could also just talk about Ken Paxson's wife divorcing him on biblical grounds and what that really might mean. Ken Paxton and in London with a side piece. I'm just saying there's stuff to talk about.

What's happening? Why is Markleyn Mullen rooming with Jason wants his name from Oklahoma who's obviously? I mean, and like someone accosted John Ossf and asked if he had BDE. And he was like, what, my brother? And someone asked to Josh Hawley and asked him about Carlos the busboy. So. Lots to talk about. Okay, we'll talk about it.

We'll think about it. We'll learn more. We're brainstorming. We're brainstorming. JVL would be very jealous if we did it together, I guess, the one thing. We might have to have a rotating set of hosts. So JVL's wife might. Okay, we're ending the show now.

I'm back. I told you, this podcast is going to get me into trouble. Okay. That's Alex Wagner. Everybody, have a great weekend, as great as possible. I'm going to be in Ohio. What's up? Come say hey if you're in Dayton, and that we'll see you all back on Monday.

Thanks, Alex. Bye, everybody. Thanks, Dan. The Bullwork Daily is brought to you thanks for the work of lead producer Katie Cooper, associate producer Ansley Skipper, and with video editing by Dante DeChico and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.