The Bulwark Podcast - Alex Wagner: ICE Is Still Killing People

Episode Date: July 8, 2026

Roughly 2,000 people a day are being swept up by ICE and put in subhuman conditions. And Stephen Miller's quotas likely contributed to the recent tragic deaths of two immigrants. Meanwhile, Graham Platner is still holding the Democratic Party hostage. What lessons can be learned for Democrats who went along with this walking red flag? Also, the Republicans' McConnell story is not convincing, man baby POTUS had some ridiculous demands at NATO, and Susan Collins helped fund the gulags. And on a more silly note: Was Taylor's wedding tacky? And should Tim and Alex do a sex podcast?show notes Alex's pod, "Runaway Country" Alex's Substack Bill on ICE in "Morning Shots"

Hello and welcome to the Bullwark podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted. Welcome back to the show. Hosted the podcast, Runaway Country from Crooked Media. She also writes the substack, how the hell with Alex Wagner. It's my buddy Alex Wagner. Hi, friend.

It's great to see you. What's up? It's good to see you, too. You're fresh. You're off of vacation. I read on your substack. Yeah. I'm dragging.

I'm heading into vacation. The drag hits fast, even after you get back from you. Vacation is on. the horizon for me. And, you know, the grand Platner agonistus this week has been the thing that's about ready to send me over the edge. So I'm looking for you to carry me today. Let's start with Platner. There's a ton of news. Trump is, I mean, doing insanity right now in Europe as we're talking. Even more so than usual. I guess it's more public. It's like when your crazy old uncle starts running around naked outside, you're like, ooh, this is another level of embarrassing. That's what's

happening. So we're going to get to that towards the end in case he literally does get naked. I don't want to miss that. There's no dignity left as a country. That would be the end of it. So we'll do politics first. The latest in the Platner's story is that he hasn't dropped yet. Literally everyone has called

for him to drop out, including Bernie Sanders and Zoran and other people kind of from his wing of the Democratic Party. Even his consultants are kind of starting to do the thing this morning that was like, this wasn't a kind of He's looking around.

I didn't talk to the New York Post. Who are the guys that did this? You know, all we did was the ads. So everybody's trying to get out of it. And, you know, by the time this publishes, who knows, many things will change, I think there's some worries that Plattner tries to gut this out and, you know, kind of does a Democratic Roy Moore. I hope that is not the case.

What we do know is that they are at minimum putting the main Democratic Party in a really tough spot. And he's got till five, this coming Monday at 5 p.m. to drop out. he chooses to do so. He's been trying to, well, let's actually just listen. This is the executive director of the Maine Democratic Party, and let me tell you, she deserves hazard pay for what she's dealing with right now. And she put out this video yesterday, kind of summarizing the state of affairs. Hi, everyone.

I wanted to provide you all an update on the U.S. Senate race here in Maine. As you know, the Maine Democratic Party has been working around the clock to develop a process to replace our U.S. Senate nominee that is open, inclusive, transparent, and fair. The integrity of this process is just as important as the outcome, and we are committed to ensuring that Democrats across our state can have confidence in both. Unfortunately, Graham Plattner's team has repeatedly reached out to us in an attempt to put their thumb on the scale of what this process looks like. We have also reiterated that Graham Plattner must drop out of this race so that Democrats in Maine

can focus on defeating Susan Collins this November. That's Devin Murphy Anderson. Shout out to her. Much respect, much respect, Dev. What do you make of all that, Alex? I mean, first of all, I've been using the word hubris. I've been using the word ego. These words are insufficient for the level of self-involvement,

selfishness, betrayal that we see from Graham. Like, it would have been bad enough that he lied about the Nazi tattoo. It would have been bad enough that there was the infidelity that he kept lying to his supporters and the public about the next shoe to drop. The rape allegations, which you talked about at length, and I'm sure we'll continue to talk about, are entirely credible.

It's the end of his campaign. The idea that he has any currency left to try and manipulate the process by which his replacement is chosen is, I think, the apex of, like, toxic masculinity. Who the fuck does he think he is? He doesn't, first of all, Can I just say anything endorsed by Graham Platner is therefore tarnished by Graham Platner.

Like, why does he think it would be a good thing for any of him or not to endorse somebody if he wants? It's a free country. Fine, fine. But like any process that he's a part of, I mean, I just, he doesn't seem to clock the longer this goes on. His currency is already devalued considerably. But the longer this goes on, the more and more devalued it becomes. And the more and more everybody wants to get the hell away from him. I would hope that today is the day that he exits the race.

Time is of the essence. Everybody has 2024 PTSD. Like, this needs to end so that, as Dev says, it can be an open, transparent, inclusive, and fair process and that there isn't sort of mutiny, insurrection, and bad vibes heading into a critical Senate race. Yeah, and this is the thing that's I don't really get. The charge here, as you mentioned, is rape.

I said this two days ago. It's like one of the options on the... table is not, I'm going to sit around and kind of see how things play out and try to manipulate things from behind the scenes like a manipulator. The options are I didn't do the rape and I'm going to do everything possible to defend my honor and to focus on defeating Susan Collins. And I think a lot of people would be deeply skeptical of that. But like that's one option on the table. If like you didn't do it, but like if you did it or you did something close enough to it, you know, that it's like, get the fuck out and stop telling people what to do.

Like, we have PTSD about Biden. I do want to talk about kind of lessons from that. Like, this is not that. Like, the Biden thing was like, this was a judgment call. Are you too old to be president? It's like he was fooling himself a little bit and thinking he could still be president in his age. But, like, you know, I was apoplectic, the top critic of that.

But, like, you can at least understand it. This is not that. Like, this is, you need to leave the race because, like, you have credible accusations of rape. I think his behavior in the wake of these allegations almost serves to support the allegations because only someone who is completely delusional and a liar would continue if this is true

and he hasn't offered any evidence to it not being true. He hasn't denied that he was sent an Instagram message by Jenny Rasko that said that sex was non-consensual, never contact me again. He hasn't denied that. he is clearly aware that something happened that night in 2021 because she made a point of trying to communicate with him about it. And only someone who knew this was in his rearview mirror

would go out there and say in the wake of the first batch of allegations, there's nothing else to see here, folks. Like you have to be kind of unhinged to know that you have these skeletons in your closet, which are very likely to come out. And full steam ahead with the campaign, go on MS now and say, you know, You've seen effectively all there is to see here.

We're good, knowing that this was on the horizon. And by the way, when he went on MS Dow with our friend Chris Hayes and I was on after that right after, it was like, Chris was really good in questioning him about this. And it was like, he's obviously not about the Nazi tattoo that. Yeah, and I texted Chris. Like, that's what I came on here and said the next day. I was like, I'm watching this.

I'm like, you're lying. Like, he's obviously lying about that. I texted Chris. I said, dude, nice work, but also I don't believe him. Right. It was just obvious at the time that he was. lying about that. And to me, it was like, okay, you know, like, the thing I kept saying on this, and maybe this is time to kind of revisit, like, things that were missed is, you know,

I was like, he's not a Nazi. And I still don't think he's a Nazi. And so I think the story of the Nazi tattoo was he got a fucking tattoo to be a tough, badass guy. And then, like, at some point, realized that it was a toten cop and then started making jokes about it. Everyone can make the judge it for themselves on how bad that is. But, like, that's what happened. But instead of saying that and covering it up, he was like, I didn't know about this until whatever. Some reporter told me three months ago. And it's like, no, that's not true. And, and like that was obvious for a while. And I do think there needs to be some reflection from people on the Democratic side about like why, you know, these red flags weren't addressed. And

there are certainly people, some here at the bulwarks, some elsewhere, not me, who are like, these red flags are too red, there should be, you know, no accepting this. And like, shout out to them. But, like, what is your take on, like, what the reflections are on that? Well, I will just say, and I don't want to be a scold here. But, I mean, I work with some wonderful men at crooked media. And we were kind of always, not at loggerheads, but there was always a kind of a frisson of, not tension, but like disagreement. At the beginning of all this, when the scandals first started coming to the four, because I just remember saying, like, are we sure, guys? And you've pointed this out.

This is one of the most crucial Senate races in the country. Like, are we sure people are ready to bet the farm on someone who clearly hasn't been vetted and, like, obviously has a lot of complications in his past? Like, nobody knows anything about this guy because he was basically door-knocked by two Democratic operatives and picked from complete anonymity and chosen to be a Senate candidate. This isn't someone who has any proven record on anything other than being incredibly adept at speaking and being very convincing, I think, in spinning his narrative about fighting for the working class and being a quote unquote warrior. I think it raises broad questions about masculinity and how we look at men and what we want out of our men as fighters and what we're willing to abide in the name of bad male behavior. I mean, I was shocked that he didn't have to pay any sort of deference to the allegations of infidelity

and more, I think, urgently, the New York Times reporting on his violent treatment of women. Like, that was just kind of like, well, we're going to abide this because fuck Susan Collins. And it's like, okay, I get that. But at some point, there needs to be a reckoning inside the party about like, what is over the line? What is toxic masculinity? And I don't want to sound like some liberal effete. But like, this is the moment of, like, this is the moment of, like, like the patriarchy has been eroded.

We are at sea trying to figure out, like, what is the left response to masculinity that has been co-opted by the right? Like, we know what Trump's version of masculinity looks like, and it looks a lot like sexual assault. And it looks a lot like kind of he-man, retrograde, pre-feminist, garbage. But, like, what does it mean for the left?

How do you compete in the field of being a man's man without championing people who are allegedly sexual assaulters and rapists? I mean, it's just, there's got to be some difference. And what is that difference? A couple thoughts on this. One, I should just say, you know, not all women, maybe, but many, many, many sniffed this out. And, like, even just, like, looking at the bullwork, I'd say Catherine and Sarah and Mona were, like, the most skeptical of him. Probably, maybe I'm forgetting somebody.

So I think that there's something to be said for that. Women know the type. Have seen it. This is not the first time that Democrats have had this reckoning, by the way, and had to think about this. I mean, this is Bill Clinton. This is the 90s all over again. I wasn't born yet, so I really don't know about that. I mean either.

Yeah, Cuomo and we could keep going. The archetype of kind of a progressive guy that's toxic in his personal life is not one that people are unfamiliar with. It is a real thing. And I think when I look back at like what did I miss about this or what did I wish I'd looked at differently? It's like I do genuinely believe that the Democrats need more back of the classroom people. Like this is just a reality. Like you can't win a lot. elections in this country by only appealing to people that went to college and were strivers

and didn't make any mistakes in life. You know, you don't want to wear the hair shirt too much for the Democrats because that's actually like 95% of Democratic politicians in front of the classroom people didn't do anything wrong, didn't want anything on their permanent record, you know, and it's like, okay, that's great. By the way, kudos. I honestly don't, maybe my voice is a little sarcastic, but I don't mean it that way. Like, that's just good for those folks, and that's admirable. But also, like, that's not the country. You know, Donald Trump's been elected twice, right?

And so it's like, okay, where is that balance, you know? And I think that there's something to be said for, we want to believe that people can be redeemed and that they can go through kind of a rough phase and, like, come out of that and, like, you know, decide to be more responsible. And, like, those stories do exist. It's not like that's totally apocryful. And, you know, you kind of get torn.

between this like, okay, I see the red flags here, but I also have this hope, you know, that like somebody who is really charming and is like connecting with voters and not just connecting with men was like connecting with the old ladies in Maine. I saw the pictures of his rallies, you know what I mean?

Like people were excited about it. That is tough. Well, okay, first let's just issue a caveat. Just because you didn't get straight A's in school doesn't mean you're also a rapist. Obviously. There are plenty of really good people who didn't do well in school.

who weren't ambitious, who have nothing to do with sexual assault and actually are incredibly loving, wonderful people. So, like, let's just get that out of the way first. Secondly, Graham Platner went to Hotchkiss. Graham Platner sells oysters to his mom's restaurant. Graham Platner's father paid for his mortgage. Like, the narrative that this guy is for Assault of the Earth, oyster farmer is a little bit off base.

He got kicked out of Hotchkiss, but I think, in retrospect... He served in the military, he served in the military, he fought for the country. He was ready to make the ultimate sacrifice. and those are things that should be rewarded. But I do think that the biography is a little bit more. There's a touch of Kavanaugh in his biography. And he, in fact, according to some reporting I read yesterday, was a supporter of Justice Kavanaugh when he was in his confirmation process,

which tracks, right? There's the authentic kind of back of the classers, as you're talking about. And then there are the kind of like kids coming from sort of more privileged middle class who just don't have the interest or the, you know, they're not meant for private schools. or boarding schools, even though he went to another boarding school. John Gans was good on this. I talked to him about this like a week or two ago before all this happened.

He just is a type. Exactly. And I think women also understand that type too in particular. Men can understand it as well. I don't want to be genderized here. But yes, I mean, I agree. There needs to be, the Democratic Party is facing an existential threat in its reliance on educated upper middle class voters.

Black women of all classes. Like that's the Democratic coalition. right now. It's like college-educated people and like black women. There has to be a way to get back to working-class Americans that doesn't travel down the path of sexual assault or degrading women. But do you know what I mean? Like that rough and tumble masculinity is kind of still part of the essential portrait of like being working class in the parody that is how we conceive of masculinity, I think, on the left or how we're looking at it. And that's fucked up. And that's what was happening with Platner.

is that that's how people looked past someone who's like twisting his girlfriend's arm and locking her in a room and then like voted for because people are so desperate to get Susan Collins out, which is a whole other aspect of all this. Two thoughts on this. One is one of the hard questions that a lot of Democrats don't want to grapple with.

I like literally ask every politician that comes on this podcast, some version of this question, is like, isn't the issue with working class people actually that they feel like Democrats are out of touch with them on cultural issues? And like you might feel like you're right on all the cultural issues and I'm not out here saying, Like, you need to throw the gaze under the bus.

But, like, you know, isn't that really the issue? Right? And so, like, it's the easy answer is to say, hey, let's go find a guy who, like, puts on a working class costume and talks about the oligarchy. And, like, we can, like, cheer that. And so, and that's easy, right? That's easy. Because it's like, okay, great.

That's solving our problems. And, like, the harder thing to grapple with is like, okay, well, maybe we need to, just at least broaden out policy solutions we have or think about other ways to reach out to these people. Or I don't know. Or maybe it's like it's worth losing over these issues. You know what I mean? Like those are like much harder questions.

It's the genius of the right is finding these wedge issues. And I mean, literally it's like Donald Trump's destroying the country but trans kids. Yeah, right. Like they are been so... I mean, peers did this yesterday on the podcast. Like literally basically did that sentence, but seriously. Without sarcasm. It's worked.

You know, it's made people feel like I can abide these transgressions. I can abide this betrayal. But at least my son isn't going to turn into a daughter. And I don't know how you do it. I think it's like a reorientation of the entire conversation back to really essential, broad issues that affect people in their everyday lives. Vast majority of Americans are not dealing with trans kids on soccer teams. They just aren't.

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Cards issued pursuant to a license from Visa USA by Coastal Community Bank, NMLS, 4662-289. Member FDIC Equal Housing Lendered, subject to approval, terms apply. visit avon.com for details. You know, one thing for myself, and I just think that, like, I have a lot of weaknesses. There's some that I don't have that I don't have. My mother always, like, we don't have the green monster in our family. I don't have envy, which I'm really grateful for. Wow, that's really awesome.

It's a good one. Yeah, I know. So I've got a lot of bad traits. So I'm just going to, before I get to them, I'm going to compliment myself. I also don't, like, get into cults. Like, even my candidates, when I worked for candidates, I was always, like, the most skeptical of my own candidate of everyone on the campaign, right? underneath all that, though, I'm kind of a softie.

And I want people to be excited. I feel like we've been so beaten down by Trump. I'm just assessing like, why was I more bullish on Graham than I should have been? Yeah. We've been so beaten down by the last 10 years. And it's like, I want whatever you want to call it, the Democrats, the pro-democracy movement, the left, to be like excited again and energized. And people were excited.

Younger people were excited. People in my life were excited about it. And I was kind of like, okay, like, is that that bad? Oh, of course not. Go look at a John Ossoff speech. Right. And I'm, like, cynical. And so I want that.

People are excited about Kamala for like a week. And I like Kamala. So I don't even, I don't mean that as an insult. But like there was like a week of excitement, throughout summer. But like before that, if you're like a 22-year-old Democrat, you kind of don't even remember what it's like to be excited about politics. Honestly.

Like what if you're 22 years old, how long ago was the 2008 campaign? We're doing quick math here. 18 years ago, you were six. Like, you don't really remember. I'm just trying to say, like, whatever he was channeling, it's important for the Democrats to try to channel that without having the vessel be somebody like him. He was channeling newness, too.

I mean, then it'd be outsider to. And that's the most potentially damaging after effect of all this as Democrats are like, ooh, no more new people, no more untested people. And I still believe that that can be the truth, outsiders, people who haven't been in politics all their lives. You know, they just need to be better vetting. perhaps. And also, I don't think Democrats are ready to try and crack the code on how to

like fight mono-a-mono on this masculine turf with Trump. Like I think after 2024, everyone was like, we need a white guy. Find us the white guy that's the answer. And it was like, it's Graham Blatner. It probably looks more like John Ossuff than Grand Plattner, to be honest. Yeah. My other weakness on this is the final thing is like, I hate them so much. I don't have the green envy, but I have the red and the eyes. Like, I hate it. hate them. And sometimes hate can prevent you from, you know, even if it's righteous hatred. You know, obviously

we know that bad hatred can char people's souls, but like even righteous hatred can blind you, you know? And I felt that way about the Biden thing. Like, I was anti-Biden running again for a while and then eventually I kind of broke down. It was like, whatever, fine.

We just had to beat him, you know? And like, in Democratic pundit circles, there's a lot of tearing down of like the old pundits or don't understand the youth anymore, but it was like, I don't know, it was Bill Crystal, James Carville, and David Axelrod that were like, nope, fuck it, he's too old. And they never wavered, you know, he's too old, never

wavered. And then I came back around and it was like, you know, and I think there's some of that here at Susan Collins. Like, I fucking hate them. And so it's like when you hate them so much, you begin to start to justify things. I just think that's an important thing for everybody to look at. Well, I think Susan Collins has earned her hatred. Totally.

I remember interviewing her on the eve of the Kavanaugh vote, and she was waving away disconcerns about Roevey-Wade falling. And she was the architect in many ways of the loss of federally protected access to basic reproductive health. And still claim she's pro-choice. I still have people tweeting about her yesterday. Why don't you just support the moderate pro-choice woman?

It's like it's her fault that Ruby Wade over her. And where's the cloak of independence and moderation? It's so appalling. And she is appalling. And she has enabled his agenda in a way that is so mendacious and evil, like, and pretends to be someone that can think for herself. It's a joke.

The idea that Susan Collins does not have the blood of, like, ice agents on her hands and doesn't have the degradation of our sort of moral fabric. She owns that. She has her hands on everything. And she knows better, which is what makes it worse. They funded everything. They funded everything. And this was by which I will stand by, going back to the Nazi thing about Platiners.

I was like, okay, you guys keep calling him a Nazi, but it was like Susan Collins was the one that funded the fucking Gulag in El Salvador. Like, that remains true, right? And so there's good reason to hate them, but, okay, you still have to have standards. So that question of standards, there's a thing of what aboutism, people like to throw around. Yeah, yeah. I just want to do a quick definition of what aboutism for people, because what aboutism is bad. What aboutism is when you say, hey, what I did or what my candidate did is bad.

but it's actually not a big deal because what this other person did is worse. That's not a healthy way to function. What is not what about is to say what my side did is bad and we are trying to change it and have accountability for it. But also, should now we also be talking about what you guys are doing that is the same, that is bad, that you're trying to avoid accountability for? On that point, I want to talk about a guy named Max Miller. He's a house member in Ohio.

He's been incredibly accused of physical abuse, domestic abuse, by two former partners, both prominent Republicans. So it's not like, oh, some liberal girlfriend he had in college. We can't trust this. Trump's spokesperson, Stephanie Grisham, and Ohio Senator Bernie Marino's daughter. Bernie Marino's daughter.

Not nobodies. And he's not saying anything. Okay, Grisham says Miller pushed her into a wall and slapped her in the face. Marino said that Miller held a gun to her head while she was changing her daughter's diaper. said some really traumatizing things. I'm not going to repeat. He threw against the wall. Again, all this allegedly.

He threw hot boiling water on her. We have there's pictures of that. He's got a rap sheet. Also, he violated restraining order, assault disorderly conduct, etc. He helped organize Trump's January 6th rally. He's a sitting congressman from Ohio. Up for re-election, important seat. I haven't heard a single Republican.

I put this on social media yesterday asking, is there been a single Republican that said he should drop out that said that they should find a replacement candidate for this person? No. Of course not, because they built the permission structure for aggressors to gain power. And like Kevin McCarthy out there on Fox News saying, ironically this week, oh, when we have bad candidates, we get rid of them. What a fucking joke.

Like, what a fucking joke. Wrights also said that. My former boss, Wrights said that. I was like, wait a minute, Wrights. You were the one that told Trump he should drop out after he admitted to rape on tape, or been a sexual assault on tape, I guess we'll say. Grab him by the pussy. It's such a gray area.

Yeah, he admitted to it on tape, bragged about it, actually. He didn't just admit about it. And you said he should drop out. And then he said, no, Reins, I'm not going to drop out. And you're like, I-I, Captain, and kept working for him and then went to become his chief of staff. And you're like on Fox being like, Republicans take care of our, what? Can I just say, like, it's not a coincidence.

It's not just that, oh, my God, why are there so many men who victimize women in positions of power, especially in the Republican Party? why is that? It's not that anybody would say this inside the GOP, but there is a lust for command and control type personalities of men taking back the reins that I think this behavior like kind of establishes a certain worldview that is smiled upon

inside conservative circles. I genuinely think that. I don't think that they would publicly champion sexual assault or violence, but I do think tacitly, When you see this narrative of men putting women in their place, it's not necessarily a thing that is seen as a negative, I think quietly and tacitly, inside certain conservative circles. I really just don't.

There's some people who would like to be that way or who would say that privately or whatever, but like it's the vice signal element of it. Yes. Right? It's like that makes you tough. Me too, bro. But also like who among us, women are so out of control.

Are you? Like, we want to, like, control our bodies. We sometimes, like, don't want to have sex with drunk men. We, like, want to make money and the same rate as men. We want fair wages. We want maybe some time off after we've pushed babies out of our universe. It could kind of be a little emotional at times. Emotional.

We're super emotional. You can get mad at us, men, and we didn't really deserve it. You never deserve it. We're the crazy-ass emotional ones. We're basically always PMSing. That's how we live. According to the moon. That doesn't feel right to me.

You said it. You said it not me. You said it not me. Sarah Longwell's going to get really... Incensed? No, she starts looking at my gay misogyny. Gay misogyny is a real thing. You know, gay men and straight women are natural allies.

Even still, the gay men sometimes can dip into the misogyny. This is why we need to do our sex podcast together. We're getting to that at the end. Mitch McConnell, is he alive? That's the next topic. What is your definition of a life? So this thing happens in politics where like we were seeing this with the Iran war a lot

where the Trump administration will like everything will be for Cacta with the Iran negotiations and then they'll be like, hey, we're to put Jared Kushner on a call with like 20 people and then he's going to talk about actually how things are great and then they're all going to tweet at the same time like, siren, you know, like the Iranians are with in retreat.

Like we heard from the administration. So this is kind of how you get your message out. one way to get your message out. Mitch McConnell seems to be doing that from his deathbed. It's like, it was so strange. So Scott Jennings, John Barrasso, John Thune, all within like 10 minutes of each other, said, hey, just got off the phone with Mitch McConnell. We talked for 20 minutes.

He was very lucid and was asking a lot of questions. We're discussing in depth what was happening in Iran and Ukraine and the Senate map. And it's like, okay, well, he's been in the hospital for three weeks. We haven't seen him almost a month now. Proof of life. And it's like, okay, well, could he get on the phone with somebody else, like a reporter? Or like, what? Why, was it a Zoom call?

Why did you all report this back at the same? Were you on the phone at the same time? The whole thing is very strange. I think he is alive. And I think he's alive, obviously. I think he's dead. Well, I don't think he's actually weekend and burning. They don't think they're actually like

weekend at Bernie. Bernie's... I agree with that. ...until unless we see Mitch speaking, lucidly, live, I mean, I'm so freaked out by AI that, like, God knows what's possible. These definitions of I've just got off a call

with Mitch McConnell could be like Mitch McConnell staffers and the body of Mitch McConnell in the twilight was there as we discussed Iran. There's a subplot where his wife, Elaine Chow, like, has been in China during this time, like having meetings. And all of this is for nothing. We just kind of went over the political power question and how sometimes that can blind your judgment.

And so some people will say, well, they're doing this to keep him in there because you don't want a replacement. Kentucky is a Democratic governor. And this is all complicated. But even if Kentucky replaced him with a Democrat or to Tom Massey or something, it'd be for like two months. There's a campaign going, right? So this is all kind of for nothing. They're holding on the power for nothing. Anyway, there was some, a vivid reply happened from one Republican,

former Congresswoman. She was on the streets of New York and got asked about this by our friends at TMZ, and I'd like to play that for you. And I'd like to say shame on the Republican Party for just basically staying silent while such a powerful Republican senator is basically laying in a hospital like a vet. and his wife flew to China and met with the Vice President of China just days after he basically died and they brought him back with CBR and took him to the hospital. But you know what? It doesn't surprise me from the establishment because this is what they support. They support people holding on to power until they're practically dead or do die in office.

Okay. This is so tailor-made for MTG, isn't that? Like the most fantastical, wild conspiracy, anti-Chinese, latent racist, little jag there. A little dollop of racism. And then, of course, fuck the Republican Party. I mean, it's just a story Taylor made for Marjorie Taylor Green. Yeah, some latent racism may be like a technical factor too wrong, but like the spirit of what she said not totally wrong.

No. We don't know that he died and that he's a vegetable. We should really just because he could come roaring back. It's Mitch fucking McConnell. Don't put anything past this guy, right? And of course, even in a vegetative state, he's playing some weird game of chess with the politics of all this.

We'll keep an eye on it. We'll do more on McConnell Legacy. And by keep an eye on it, we'll continue to entertain wild conspiracy theories about it until someone debunks up. Until someone shows us his face. Let me see his face. I've been out and about the summer,

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Other news. There's news in the world outside of politics. Let's get to that. So as mentioned earlier, Trump is still an anchor. And is that my saying that or is it Ankara? Is it Ankara? Ankara. I feel like I heard someone else say Ankara and I got that in my head.

It's not Ankara. It's not, it's not in Alaska. That's Anchorage. It's Ankara. Fuck. Being on a podcast is so hard. It's not. You know, it's like, it's really not. Every word you got to get pronounced right. You don't have any of that problem on a runway country. It's like being in the TV is worse. You have an editor that can just cut out this whole thing, but they won't.

This is fun now. Let's keep it in. It's self-effacing. Yeah, the editor likes to hold me accountable. They like that. It makes you human. Yeah. Ankara. And there's press conference. this morning, much is discussed. I guess we'll start with Iran. We started very powerful, speaking of Mexicanity. It's always powerful, strong strikes against Iran last evening in response to Iran shooting at some ships in the Strait of Hormuz, still trying to control the Strait of Hormuz.

We claimed we had 80 military targets. Iran says they respond to the drone of missile attacks. Trump said that we're revoking the license allowing them to sell Iranian. oil. So that was nice about last week. People were able to get that cool Ayatollah oil for a couple of weeks and not anymore. Tastes it so, so good. And this morning he said we may take over Karg Island. It's threatening to do that again. Part of his report about the latest, he said that the Islamic Republic of Japan shot 11 missiles. It ends in A.N. Just like Iran. That's what's happening. The Islamic Republic of Japan. So he's just sharp as a tech. Two good people, Steve Whitkoff and Jared Kushner, They're on it.

But they're cuckoo. The Iranians. The Iranians are cuckoo, Tim. You can't really. That's another thing he said. Yeah, he said, he's been doing deals his whole life. You've been doing deals his whole life. And these guys just don't seem like they want to do a deal.

They're dishonorable. Can't trust them. Which does raise some questions for me, which is why did you have a dramatic signing of the deal with them at Versailles? Treaty of Versailles II, Electric Bugaloo, make a huge, huge scene about it. Have the Emmanuel Macron there. Brigitte Macron, Big. It was a birthday celebration. You made this massive scene with this huge deal that you signed

that harkened back to a historic deal that didn't really turn out that great in the end. And like now, two minutes later, you're like, I'm a deal man. And you can't trust these guys. It's like we just did the deal. It was a fucking doc you sign. It was nothing. It was papering over, trying to paper over,

calm the markets and get oil below $4 a gallon and just praying that it would work. There's nothing in this thing. They'd not resolve the fundamental issues. Setting aside even the nuclear program, which he has like zero interest in actually dealing with. Just the straight itself, like figuring out, like Iran has been given a golden goose.

And that golden goose is living in a barn on the Ayatollah's property. And the U.S. is like, you will give us the goose. And they're like, yeah, no, we don't think so. And they're like, okay, now you will give us the goose. And you will give us half of the goose's eggs. And they're like, no, I actually fuck off. Like, that's basically what's happened. They own the waterway now.

They're going to continue to extract prices for any ship going through it. The U.S. has no leverage here because Trump is in a bind. This is a disaster of epic proportions. And of course, oil prices have gone higher than ever. The only interesting thing that may come out of it is, I think, a reorientation of the U.S. Israel relationship. Like, that's like overdue and the conversation around that is overdue. And maybe that's like, I don't know.

That's the one thing that I think is, who knows where it's going. but that's the one interesting thing about all of this. But beyond that, what a colossal goat rodeo this is. Oil prices are back up. We're not back up over the Landman line yet. That's what I keep watching. Billy Van Thornton. We on my show interviewed a gas station owner.

First of all, interviewed two people of interest. If anybody hasn't listened to a runaway country, they should. It's an amazing podcast. It's great. We're going to get to one of the other episodes in a second. I'll just be really quick on this then if we have promo later. But number one, we talked to a gas station owner, And like, it is not like there is an established kind of baseline, really, for gas station owners to price the gallons to put the number, the big ass numbers in like 38,000 font on the sign.

Like, they have some discretion. And they're using their best gas based on, of course, what it is per barrel, but also what other gas stations in the area are doing. And impossibly where they think it's all going. Gas prices are low because the oil industry is like, okay, we think this thing is coming to. an end. Gas station owners are pricing it lower, but it's not because there's more oil flowing through the pipeline. That stuff is all on delay. Like, gas prices are going to remain elevated, and now they're going to go back up. The lowering of gas prices is kind of like an immediate response to a belief that the situation is calming. And the minute that that is no

longer the case, which is now, those prices are going to continue to go up and they're going to remained so for months. We've devastated the supply lines and the reserves and the storage facilities. Anyway, whatever. No, that's true. That's all good. Thank you for doing that little sidebar. Petro-engineering sidebar. The Pentagon's also running out of money. We're never more on this tomorrow show, but like, you know, we're spending a ton of fuel taxpayers money on this for nothing. We have no goal. The goal now is trying to get back to the baseline status quo. And like, that's not even going to happen. That's kind of where we are. And they're escalating. plans to escalate to question mark at this point.

So that's the state of affairs with that. He also is really mad at Spain. I want to read this quote to you. We don't play his voice on the podcast. I fucked up last week. Since he won again, I've had a strong policy of never playing, strong, strong, powerful policy of never playing his voice on the podcast. And like, I don't know, I was multitasking.

And like, I was like, throw that in and post. And I had a couple complaints. They're like, you made me hear his voice from listeners. So my apologies. Anyway, I will read it. Spain is a wasted cause. We don't want to do any trade business with Spain anymore, by the way. I'd like to cut it off.

Spain is a terrible partner in NATO. Cut off all trade with Spain, including visits. They don't want to do anything to do. They're hopeless. That's Trump. If you liked pancontamat, you better get it in now. I love pancontamot. And I love Haman, and Spain is definitely my sleeper favorite food.

Is it my actual number one favorite food? I don't know, but it is my sleeper favorite. I am a Haman monster. My vacation in the summer is not... A ma'amaster. My vacation in the summer is not in good Spain, which is devastating. And now I'm like wondering if I need to do a quick sidebar to go hoard Spanish cured meats.

You do, is the answer. Bring an extra suitcase and stuff it with Iberico because buddy... The only thing is someone should tell Trump this. The EU doesn't negotiate trade agreements by country. It's as a union. That's why it's called the European Union. It's like Europe doesn't negotiate with Kentucky and negotiates with the United States.

So that's a kink in his plan to like cut off all trade with the hopeless Spanish. The visas could be a problem, though. One of my besties is from Spain. Oh, I'm sure. I hope Abuelo and Abuela can come visit us this winter. I believe that they will be able to because as we know, Trump's tantrums usually last a couple months

and then they're over. I just want to say one thing, which is the whole NATO trip. Nobody should be. I mean, yes, I guess we're going to sell fighter jets maybe to Turkey, and that's meaningful. But this is all just alike. The baby is mad because his rattle broke, and everybody saw a break on the floor,

and now he wants someone to blame. And he's going to blame the Spaniards for not helping him in Iran, and he's going to blame the British and the French. And this is all just an angry baby throwing a fit in Ankara so that he can, I don't know, seek some solace in his rage and find some resolution in his rage. Seems like you pronounced it differently that time. Did I say Ankara?

Seems like you pronounce it different. No, you fucked me up. All right. Eric Gettleman will tell us how to do it. There are things in life that you don't want to be transparent, like your search history or your swimsuit. Well, that kind of depends. I want to float your boat on the swimsuit, but many people might not want that to be transparent.

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capable device required, availability speed, and coverage varies. C mintmola.com for details. We need to pivot to the thing that I'm the most pissed about, which I, is the ice stuff.

And I feel like it's come out of focus. And part of the reason why it's come out of focus is, you know, kind of this move from Nome to Mark Wayne Mullen, you know, create kind of a moment of like, well, let's wait and see how it turns out. I, you know, I think that all of us, obviously, did not expect things to be better. But I think kind of in a media standpoint,

it's like, okay, like we'll continue to report on all this. But, you know, let's see if there's a change in policies. There's not been a change in policies. I want to get to the podcast I referenced earlier that you did on Runaway Country with Melissa Shepard and Caitlin Dickerson. We talked about ICE detention facilities a couple weeks ago. You didn't lose your eye on the – you didn't get your eye off the ball on it. But just a couple of things.

New York Times from last week, federal immigration officials detained more than 10,000 people in the last five days. This is at the end of June. A major surge that's done from a push within ice to increase arrest rates. Some of the things have happened that surge. This is now back in March, but Bill Crystal wrote about this this morning. and it got me really hot and angry. So I'm going to read a bit from the morning newsletter,

and then we'll chat about the state apply. Muhammad Pachtewal, yesterday morning NBC reported on his death in ICE custody. He's 41. He fought for a decade alongside U.S. special forces in Afghanistan. He was evacuated when we pulled out in 2021. He entered the U.S. legally. He became a truck driver, worked at a market and a bakery, and had requested asylum to remain here.

That claim was pending when ICE seized him for deportation at his home in Richardson, Texas, in March, while he was getting his children ready for school. Pocktewal died the next day in ICE custody. His death certificate says he died from an adverse drug reaction to an unidentified substance. We do know from his wife that he relied on an inhaler from asthma and that ICE agents rejected her attempt to give the inhaler to them when he was taken into custody. as Bill Crystal writes, who's not a criminal, he's not here illegally, he was a threat to no one, he died at the hands of ice. Like he died because of ice. So a couple of other examples I want to talk about. Just to say, like he was here because he helped us. Right. Like he literally sacrificed his safety, the safety of his family to help further, in theory,

the principles of democracy and the values of the United States in his homeland. and this is how we treated him. Yeah. And this is the thing that takes you back to the blinding rage. You know, it's like there's no purpose of all this. And it's like, peers now arguing about this yesterday. And it's like, you know, he's kind of making the case like, oh, well, it's good thing the border's secure.

And like, yeah, like the Biden border got out of control. But it's like what we're doing in this administration is so different from what was happening at the border during the Obama administration, plenty of things to criticize about that. This is insane. We were taking people like this man, and this man in particular, like you said, helped our soldiers put himself in harm's life for America,

and we still detained him and put him into a shithole prison where he died for absolutely no reason, except for wanting to meet fucking Nazi Stephen Miller's quotas. But we're doing this with the Haitians, we're doing this, the Venezuelans,

what we sent to El Salvador. A lot of people came here legally, or through a legal process. Or had temporary protected status. Yeah, legal pathway. Right? Like, not to say that you can treat humans like this, if they had snuck across the Rio Grande,

but like, we are treating humans like this that didn't do that, that did try to go through the right process or the right pathway, and they're still being, you know, menaced and detained by jackbooted thugs, and some of them are dying. And so anyway, you talked about the situation in these prisons with Melissa Shepherd. I want to just talk a little bit about that. She's a lawyer for some of the detainees, and I think insofar as we have seen,

Americans being murdered in the streets, and I think that's taken our eye off the ball, but there are 2,000 people. being stolen and disappeared every day in this country because Stephen Miller wants, you know, ICE agents to meet a 3,000 deportations a day quota. And once these detainees are taken into custody, the conditions that they are forced into are subhuman. They are not given clean water. They are not given enough food. They are separated from their children. There are hundreds of thousands of families that have been broken apart. Because of this, there are children in detention.

they are not allowing any oversight. You see what happens when Congress people try and get into these ICE detention centers, these ICE prisons. And in many cases, you're grabbing people off the street and people are on medication. They need basic, they need their inhalers. And in the case of this,

the Afghan soldier that you're talking about, his wife tried to give the ICE agents his inhaler and said he needs this and they wouldn't take it. And that, when you talk about the 50 deaths in ICE custody this year, which is in a skyrocketingly high number, it's, I think, now we don't have the information on all this, it's because people don't have access to their basic medicine.

And or they have, Melissa, the lawyer that we spoke to, said they'll have normal sort of routine issues, whether it's a cut or a hangnail or something that then escalates to a critical level critical because they're not given access to doctors or nurses or just basic medical care. And then it becomes really life-threatening and they have to be rushed to the hospital

and often it's too late. That's outside of the people who are committing suicide in these jails because the situation is so grim. I mean, there's no sunlight on what's happening here. And now ICE is saying, we're not going to really report on the number of deaths because they know it's a flashpoint for public interest. But what is happening on the streets is bad enough.

What is happening sort of just by definition is bad to steal people and disappear them who've been living here for decades and who've been contributing to our American society and the foundation of our American economy. That's bad enough. But what's happening to them inside the detention centers in our name is utterly un-American and totally unconstitutional.

And the Trump administration would much rather we not talk about that and certainly doesn't want any debate to see what's happening. And totally unnecessary is the other thing. Like there's no reason for anybody to be in detention that's not a criminal or that's not a threat to the community. Right? It's like, okay, even if you are going to deport these people and I'm going to have differences of opinion with Republicans

on who merits deportation, you can wait for the process, you know, to go through. And then once they have in order for removal, you can give them an opportunity to appear or to remove themselves, or you can go to their home and remove them, which is, again, not something that is pretty or that I would necessarily like. But, like, that is a process that you could go through that would be defensible. Like, putting people that, like, tried to come through the process

through asylum legally into some hole, some human prison, and making them stay there for months on end. It's like insane. Well, it's part of the strategy. I mean, and lawyers, I think, recognize that too, is to make it so deplorable that people just give up. Whether they kill themselves or they say, I'm not, it's self-deportation, right?

It's a form of making it so bad that they can't abide it anymore. And they feel like the alternative of going back to a homeland that's dangerous or that is no longer really a place they recognize. So it's kind of like the Soviet-Siberia strategy that we're doing. That's our actual policy. And can I just say like 2,000 people a day is a lot. And I've tried to get into how that's happening outside the public view because they're seizing a large number of people as they go in for immigration hearings.

They're seizing them off the street. They're seizing them at traffic stops. And there's been another death. You know, you talk about the death yesterday that was reported. Yeah, here's this one just really quick. Ice agent shot and killed Lorenzo Araro. DHS is saying that he was using his vehicle as a weapon during the stop, drinking traffic stop.

We've heard that one before. Yeah, we have. They provided no actual evidence for that, no video evidence. He was in the car, like family members, his brother, seems to come of a strange thing to do to try to do a suicide attack on ICE agents while you're in the car with your family. Lorenzo lived in America for 35 years, working construction here, trying to help support his family.

He got shot. my ICE agency yesterday killed. And was in the process of trying to get legal residency. It was in the pipeline, I believe. Yeah, that's right. This is because this administration believes, and maybe rightly, that they can act with impunity when it comes to people of color.

Like, this is, in addition to, like, the Haitians and the Burmys and the Venezuelans who were all here legally under temporary protected status, the Supreme Court just gave the green light to the Trump administration to revoke that status. And it is going to create both a crisis here. Like, we depend on Haitian home health care workers across the healthcare industry and at home.

Like Haiti can't absorb all these newly deported Haitian refugees. There's no thought towards the consequence of these people because in the eyes of this administration, and I think in the eyes of the American public, they don't matter. I mean, how were these deportations happening? People are getting seized on the street still at traffic stops. They're getting murdered in the process. And like, where are we?

Yeah. Well, it's actually kind of important. And it's an important part of the J.D. Vance, Vice President's conversion story to Catholicism. I was talking with Laura Ingram about this. I mean, we have to let people die in ICE detention. We have to let Catholic immigrants get shot by ICE agents. We've got to, like, send people into subhuman detention centers, and we've got to deport them back to hellholes where they're probably not going to be able to survive

because, like, of the Catholic doctrine that, like, working white Americans need to have, like, the dignity of a paycheck. and if their paycheck is like it all diminished by the fact that there is an immigrant in their community, like that's kind of un-Catholic, actually. So it's an interesting Catholic teaching. I went to Catholic school for 13 years. Don't recall that. I was raised Catholic. I also don't remember that part of like the persecution and the dehumanization of the poor and the brown and the undocumented as being part of Jesus's teachings.

But I mean, I maybe missed Sunday school that day. Yeah, we didn't have to wait. Maybe it was Antoninusklee's brothers, a priest in D.C. Maybe I'll have to ask him for a briefing. The silly section of the podcast, how do you pivot from the thing that makes you the most fucking pissed in the world? At the beginning when I was like, I'm red-eyed with rage and sometimes the clouds my judgment. Like, this is why we're fucking killing people that we're serving alongside our soldiers in Afghanistan for no reason at all. So it is enraging.

So we'll just do a deep breath. Should we do it just a new giant-y breath together? It's our rage. We've hit the ceiling of rage and we need to come back down off the ceiling. Okay, we're going to do some Ujahee breaths. All right. Ujahy breaths. Do you go to yoga? Is that a thing for you? Hell yeah. No, yoga was an important part of my personal journey after Trump won the first time. This rage I've been talking about on this podcast is what I think a mostly, not entirely, a mostly healthy rage at the injustices of the administration and what we're doing to people.

At the beginning of Trump won, I had kind of a consuming personal rage. That was unhealthy. It was unhealthy, but it was like mostly about how like these people that I knew personally and who were horrible people and had made horrible judgments like were now like getting rewarded. It was like the opposite. You know, this kind of thing you have to learn as a child. Like life isn't fair. Good things happen to bad people.

Like that kind of thing. It wasn't like a jealousy. Like I didn't want to be in there, but I was like kind of mad that they were happy. Incensed. Yeah. And that's not healthy or good. That's cancerous. Yeah, cancer. So I went to yoga was important part of the recovery from that.

Yeah, do you talk about, I'm an avid bulwark listener, and I feel like I did not know this. Maybe you weren't avid then. It was before I took over the podcast. Like, you know, so I've done less yoga. This was like 21. The bollwarks been around forever. Time flies. But, yeah, this was probably 20, 1920. Back in the, for the OGs, this was back in like the Thursday night bulwark era. Okay, all right. That's like maybe, I didn't have a computer then. Yeah, this was OG time. Yeah, no, there was a ladies yoga collective in Oakland. It's not around anymore.

This is perfect. This is very on brand. Can you do headstands and stuff? I didn't ever get that good, no. But I didn't pretty good. You know Ejai breaths, so that's good. Yeah, pretty good. But, yeah, I never, I don't.

I'm like, my butt, anyway, we'll talk about my lanky limbs and my lack of power. I've got weaknesses. And he's not one of them. Shout out to Trina and Jamilo, though. Okay. Poperie. Do we want to do My final three topics for us

are Taylor's Wedding The Flyover at the 4th of July And the potential sex podcast Your Honor's choice Two out of three I'm fired up about Okay Which one are you not fired up about? The flyover, I just, I'm going to admit

I'm... Okay, we'll just do it really quick Because maybe you're not fired up about it Because you don't really know exactly what happens I saw the headlines Here we go A dispute among Cabinet of officials broke out over who could ride in fighter jets flying over D.C. on July 4th.

The dispute escalated to President Trump himself, who gave the go-ahead only to acting attorney general Todd Blanche over objections from Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy. Everyone is 12. Girls, you're all pretty. You're all pretty. And they all wanted, Lutnik, Nutlick, they all wanted to be able to fly in the pretty jets over of the mall. And there were some safety concerns

expressed by Sean Duffy unclear whether he's being responsible or was jealous. Childhood jealousy. He's a transportation secretary. The jets are his purview. God damn it, Todd got to fly. You go into the Oval Office, Mr. President, sir.

Someone in the transportation department has said that I can't go on a joyride in the plane over the mall. Dad? Dad. Daddy? will you call the principal? Dad, Sean saying I can't take a ride in the plane. What, Todd?

Well, you call the principal? Other kids are being mean to me on the playground. This is it. This is the internal dynamics of the Trump White House. So there you go. A group of selfish, peevish, 12-year-olds. I think we have a disagreement on the next topic, but I love your passion about it.

An entire newsletter about the Taylor Swift wedding. I'm appalled by it. You are appalled. Here was my opinion on the Taylor Swift wedding. Please don't talk to me about the Taylor Swift wedding. I couldn't avoid it. I was on my vacation, and it was like I was getting news alerts about, you know, Paul Rudd arriving in his SUV. I had friends sending me things.

I was, I tried to avoid it. I know very little about it. I'd learn that Taylor and Travis both gave 20-minute vows, which is, which feels long. They read from golden books. Personal golden books they read their vows from. I guess my one take on it was that, like, getting married at a princess wedding in Madison Square Garden, It kind of feels like what the daughter of like the biggest car dealer in North Jersey would do for their wedding. Also, whatever makes you happy.

You kids happy. So you had a more harsh take. I'm sorry. I just felt like it was so late stage imperial decline. Like the idea that you're having a wedding at Madison Square Garden and like it's 22,000 seats in there. They cover the whole thing in pink chiffon. and then inconvenience, the NYPD, involve the mayor. It's the 4th of July weekend when everyone's trying to get out of town.

Madison Square Garden is dead in the center of town between 7th and 8th avenues. That's monstrously egotistical. But then they're inviting a thousand of their very closest friends, including like Wayne Gretzky and Steven Spielberg. I mean, I'm sure they've had passing interactions with these people, but the TV show Graham Norton was like, why are you inviting me? George Stephanopoulos was there? Yes, exactly.

I mean, Michael Strahan and Amos Stone. He played football. It's fucking insane. But whatever, guess list. But it's really, the icing on the cake for me was, inside the event, as all these SUVs arrive and the celebrities go inside, they have raffles for Cartier watches

and jewelry and handbags and cars. And it's like, man, this is such excess. And I get it. You're like an incredible musician and you've made a lot of money and hats off to you. But what a senseless, just utterly degraded way

of spending that money at a moment when everybody, it's like Marie Antoinette. It's like, I have my petite trianon at Madison Square Garden and I'll live there with my decadence and you all can eat cake. I know they gave $26 million to charity, but it seems so out of sync.

I mean, to me, it's like it exemplifies America. can decline, that we lust after these celebrities that could give a fuck about the reality that is being lived by most people in this country and just have amassed these incalculable sums of wealth

and literally don't even know what to spend it on. Do you think Brad Pitt needs a Cartier watch? He's a fucking like Omega spokesperson. Like this is just, it's insane. It's so excessive and wasteful and insane and it really bothered me. And it was, you know, twinned with Trump's outrageous Fourth of July.

I circle jerk basically on the mall. And like, this is the news that was coming across my transom when I was on vacation overseas. This is why I'm turning off the Twitter machine on vacation. I'm asking the audience for accountability. I want you to monitor my Twitter feed when I'm on vacation. If you see a retweet, you'll know I did bad. I don't know. I'll have to come up with an email for you to contact.

Safe space. I want to, we'll have an agreement in part and a dissent. The agreement I want to offer is the guest list was preposterous and act and soulless. And this is a very DC thing, but kind of like in a celebrity fashion, which is DC people have weddings and then like invite like random other important DC people that they aren't friends with. Maybe. At the like the smallest level of this, like when I was just like,

I just got my first report. I forget if it was Jeb or Romney or what, but like some guy who was like older than me, it was another comms guy, like sees me in a part. I think it was a correspondent's dinner party. And he was like, hey, I'm getting married in two months. Can I send you an invite? He didn't have my number. He didn't have my...

And I was like, we're not friends. I was like, this is so strange. Like, when me and Tyler got married, there were like seven DC people there. You know, I was like, I have friends. Like, I have actual friends from life that I want to celebrate my wedding with. And it's like, why would you want to celebrate your wedding with me who you know from Twitter? And it's like a kind of a common DC thing, I think, to have the wedding be a networking event.

Transactional. And I do find that very sad. And so I'm a little bit sad for Taylor and Travis on that front. The dissent from a I'm a note here from a 25-year fan that's a producer note yeah maybe tacky but there was maybe

security concern with the TNT wedding at a chateau or some other luxury sites with leak drones guys oh right because getting married in the middle of New York City like what? I just wanted to offer a defense I mean and listen I know there are swifties out there and I just I'm sorry like

I just think bad choices were made What were we talking about? What was the sex advice we were doing on the last podcast that started this kind of ongoing effort for you to bully me into doing a sex podcast with you? Do you remember? I should have looked up this. We have to go back to the archives. I don't remember. The last time you were on, which is too long ago.

It's how gayes and straights maybe? And like you're want to talk about the homosexual lifestyle. I do like talking about the homosexual lifestyle. So yeah, I went back to the book to the archive. It's been a minute. So we're moving into a quarterly visit that we're going to start having just so you know. I'm just letting you know now. So start getting your calendar out.

I'm in. This is too good to only do twice a year. Whatever we talked about, prompted, we should do a spinoff thing where politics is wearing us down. It was earlier in the Trump administration. And it's like it would be fun to do a side thing. You're underselling this. It wasn't like, oh, this is a lark.

It was like the essence of all the conflict. I believe this is actually how we got started. The essence of all the conflict in the political sphere, social and cultural, is sex. Power that attends sex. I mean, look at the, we're talking about Platner, right? Yeah. Like, sex is at the root of so much of the chaos, disagreement, and partisanship.

Honestly. Whether people are getting laid, whether they aren't getting laid, whether they're being cuckolded. Yeah. To go on on Dan Savage's podcast, I always love, he has invited me on in a minute. What's the problem with that, Dan, are you listening? I'd like to go on too. But I'm just saying, I think you could have a sex-focused podcast that looked at the world through the lens of sex.

And then also did some like audience Q&A. And then also just talked about like, you know, I don't know, reverse carly gal-girl or whatever. Like, you know, like. But you won't do it. I'm a high. Listeners, chime in. If you think me and Tim should do a sex podcast,

you think I'm going to make you divulge like stories from your 20s. I'm not going to do that. 440s. Shut up. I'm still active. I'm still alive. Okay. So as a trial run, as a trial run, I thought that.

the final topic. And I don't want to pick on her personally, Graham's wife, because it's obviously a tough time. So I just, I want to like, like, basically kind of anonymize that encounter and say, somebody came to you, Alex Wagner and said, hello, I'm in, I'm in my 40s.

Everybody's still alive here, but like a later in life marriage, we don't know if we're going to be able to have kids, husband, you know, it's a little bit of a bonfie bond. What? What?

Out there, Bon V V V Vant. Got a husband that's out there, you know. And I've discovered that he has a kick profile with a shirtless picture of himself in the 40s, and we're working through it. Like how big of a red flag is having a kick profile in a straight marriage if you're a wife? Wait, I'm going to really...

What's a kick profile? A kick is like a sexy app. Oh, it's like field? Yeah, I mean, I don't actually... Is it just for sex? No, I don't think so. What else is Kicked for? Do we know?

Kicks's like a messaging app. It's kind of like a Snapchat. It's for sex. Yeah, it's more like a Snapchat, but like... You're asking me if this, I was in this situation, and we were already married or we were dating on the precipice of getting married. Already married, yeah. No, this is a huge red flag.

It's a bit like over? Because can I just say, it's one thing to be like, I got drunk and I hit on the someone I work with or someone I met in a bar. You have to say, you have to say, sit down. Like, have you done a dating profile? I have. And I'm never doing one again. It's not, don't recommend. One out of ten. Were you on Raya? Listen, we're not going to talk about all that. How can we have a sex podcast if you're not going to talk about your Raya profile? I was on Raya. I was on Raya and I was like, nobody would ever get back to me. And I was like, what is this?

And it was just comedians and tour photographers that were like, like messaging. It just, it didn't work. It was not a good app for me. But it takes. time. You have to be focused. You have to be like really wanting to set up a profile. And you have to take the picture of yourself at the dirty mirror where you're shirtless. And by the way, you're not using the first photo you took. Like you're combing through your photo library. You're like doing different angles. You're playing with lighting, etc. Like that's a concerted effort to cheat. A concerted effort to get your goods on the market. It's like a cheap way of stepping out on your lady. I just think it's a huge red flag. I don't believe that there's like, like,

like that redemption is a lost goal necessarily, but that's a pretty big transgression in my book. Yeah, you know, it's one thing, here would be my advice to the late. It kind of depends on what woman it's looking for. I think that it's okay to decide, like, once you're past your childbearing years for both the man and the woman, like, you want companionship. Totally. And like you like a man that, like, you know, is a little bit of a,

what would be the right word, you know? Coxman? Coxman. You like a man that's a little bit of Coxman and like you have a relationship and it's like, hey, this is a committed relationship but also, you know, I understand what I'm signing up for here. Well, yeah, there's transparency. Fine. Open marriage? That doesn't seem like that's what was happening here. No, dude. And I just read the book Crush, which is a good summary about a man who tries to open up his marriage.

Okay. And it doesn't, I mean, it's really complicated. Stuff. I don't, I mean, I know some people who have open marriages and they've, and doing it since they were day one. Day one. And that's a different thing entirely because that's like part of your marriage DNA. Yeah.

But to do it after, after years of monogamy or purported monogony, I think is way more complicated and way more perilous, treacherous territory. Red flags were everywhere. Okay, if only they'd called Alex before. If only everybody, if only everybody had called Alex, if only had everybody listened to the beer man, Dan Klebin, and Alex Wags. last winter, things would be very different right now. Dan Cleban is one of our guests on Runaway Country this week.

Oh, really? Yeah. How about that? What an unintentional promo. We'll leave it there. You can't end a podcast any better than that. That's Alex Wagner. Go check out Runaway Country.

And we'll be back here. We do it every day. So we'll see you tomorrow. Peace. The Bullwark podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brett.