The Bulwark Podcast - Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift

Episode Date: February 13, 2025

While Elon claims he's storming the government to cut waste, he's also getting himself a big fat check for $400 million from the State Department for Tesla armored vehicles—though administration officials are now trying to hide the grift because the Trump glow does not extend to the weird dude. Meanwhile, McConnell may have voted against confirming RFK Jr, but he's the one who drew up the blueprint for breaking the rules. Plus, the asymmetry in passion between MAGA and the resistance, and Alex's new podcast looks at how people are being affected by the policies and promises of Trumpism. MSNBC’s Alex Wagner join Tim.  show notes Trumpland with Alex Wagner Dave Weigel's piece that Tim referenced Axios piece that was mentioned

Hello and welcome to the Bullard podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We're still in the first month of the Trump second presidency, apparently. And, um, I'm with somebody that's going to try to help us figure it out. You would have usually found her hosting Alex Wagner tonight on MSNBC with me as a guest occasionally, but through April 30th, she's on special assignment for the limited MSNBC podcast series, Trump Land with Alex Wagner reporting on the first hundred days of the second Trump administration.

It's Alex Wagner and we're in Trump Land, I guess. How's that going? I mean, we live in Trump Land. It's just the reality of the situation. I hate to break it to everybody. It may not be forever, but that's where we're at. Do you have any pushback on the title, just for mental health purposes, or you just are accepting?

Well, there is a fine calculation between how much the word Trump in any given title is an attractant or a repellent. Yeah. So I do think though, I mean, we're looking at Trump land, not just through the lens of Trump, but the people also affected by Trumpism and his policies and promises. So it's not just about the dude. In fact, I would say it's a lot less about the dude and more about the sort of broader

contours of the country he's creating. It's very little about the dude actually. We're going to do a bunch on the pod. I was binging it yesterday. We have a couple of news items, so we have to get to first though, if you don't mind. Please go. It's your podcast. We have a new... I'd like turning the tables. I love it.

I relish. I'm a terrible guest. I am a terrible guest, but I'm telling you that now that I'm already booked and we've started this. It's going to be great. I relish putting the host in the guest seat. I'll bring out the best guest in you, I promise. All right. We have a new edict from the Capitol. The dear leader's mouthpiece was asked about the banishment of the Associated Press from the press room yesterday. I want to take a listen to what she had to say about that. I was very upfront in my briefing on day one that if we feel that there are lies being pushed by outlets in this room, we are going to hold

those lies accountable. And it is a fact that the body of water off the coast of Louisiana is called the Gulf of America. And I'm not sure why news outlets don't want to call it that, but that is what it is. That's a fact. That's a fact. That's a fact. I mean, this is like my question.

It's like, can you imagine, by the way, can you imagine the crowd sizes debate litigated in Trump 2.0? I mean, I feel like you would have- I think we have that clip actually. Let's go, can we hear another fact? Can we get that other clip really quick? This was the largest audience to ever witness an inauguration, period, both in person and around the globe.

I mean, can I just say the difference between then and now is it was just stupid, son of Spicer embarrassing himself, you know, like becoming a national parody. And now there's actual retribution. The idea that the AP is not being allowed in, is being punished for adhering to reality. It's not good, Tim. Very George Orwell. All of this.

I guess another difference is they're making their facts real. You know, like the Google machine and Apple have changed the name of the Gulf here as well. What's next? I mean, what's next? Like, when you talk about Trump, President Trump, you have to now by law say the greatest president in American history. When you when you print the words President Trump, I mean, like, sky's the limit, right? It's a fact. I'm shocked that I haven't tried to change anything to Trump. I don't I'm annoyed that we went back to Mount McKinley. I want Mount Trump. I want to just go all in. Listen, from your mouth to Trump's ears. I do not think this is the end of this. If he

can win at renaming large bodies of water, just on a whim, what's to stop him from calling it the United States of Trump? I mean, I kid, but I do think this sets an unbelievably bad precedent. Or Trump land. I got to tell you, I know this is serious now. I know that the media, there's a free speech question here, the folks at FIRE, the good free speech advocates have been defending the AP, which I appreciate. It's just really funny. I don't know. There's something about her being like, it is a fact.

It is a fact that I find funny. It seems a little desperate and funny. No, is it not funny? Beth Dombkowski I mean, I guess there's like a certain, like, you know, Czechovian, like there's like a very, Chris Hayes and I were talking about this yesterday. There's like a very Russian kind of like dark humor embedded in all of this, right? Like it's so absurd, the theater is so absurd, but it's real. I mean, like the consequences are real

and as absurd as this all seems, this is what's happening to our country. It is absurd. I was thinking about this yesterday. I was like, if I got into a time machine, flew back to 2015 and went to a gaggle of reporters, or even better, a gaggle of conservative media reporters, went on Fox, if I go on Fox in 2015 and I was like, 10 years from now, Trump will be president still and he will demand that we call the Gulf of Mexico the Gulf of America and everyone will go along with it.

I would even put it in a sane asylum. People would be like, you have such Trump arrangement syndrome that you need to be forcibly removed from society. As a matter of satire and comedy, they're firing on all cylinders. We couldn't have conjured this nonsense, as you say, even nine years ago. They're very creative in that sense. They are. Okay. We've got some other news items we got to take through. Tesla. Some great news for Tesla. The Trump administration is set to purchase $400 million worth of armored

Tesla vehicles, according to a new State Department document detailing procurement for fiscal year 2025. After reports circulated Wednesday of, uh, got a shout out Dropsite News for being first to the punch on this. Uh, the State Department changed the document and now it says the federal contract is for 400 billion worth of armored electric vehicles. No Tesla's name has been removed. So I have a couple of questions. I have a serious question for you about the corruption that is taking over our government.

But I also, like as the non-woke former Republican here, I've got to say, why are we even doing like French electric vehicles at all? Like what, like what is the deal with this? Like what if our armored vehicles are in a place where there are no charging stations? Shouldn't we have Ford F-350s? Shouldn't we have like real American gas guzzling armored vehicles? Not like, not this hippie shit? So anyway, two-part question. I don't know which to tackle first, Tim. The grift, right? Do you remember when it was like, oh, he might be building a Trump tower in Abu Dhabi.

Nobody even bothers to disguise it. And I do think unlike Trump, right? People like the con man in Trump. I feel like that's why in some ways he was elected because he cuts corners and does his own shit. People do not feel the same way about Elon Musk and Elon Musk standing there in the Oval Office with his child as a prop, and like pretending that he's president,

and tinkering around in payroll systems, and using his like teen dream doge crew to gut the federal government, I do not think that that passes by without the American public, without it ruffling their feathers. And I say that as someone who spent, you know, some time in DC last week in front of the Treasury Department

where there was a large protest. And there was no talk about Trump. It was all focused on Elon Musk. And I do think that, you know, the Trump glow does not extend to anybody else. I do not think it extends to Elon Musk. And I think Democrats and people who are just upset about what's happened here are finding a new narrative and he's at the center, Elon Musk is at the center of it. And I think this and people who are just upset about what's happened here are finding a new narrative

and he's at the center, Elon Musk is at the center of it. And I think this kind of stuff, there's a reason they changed the wording to not mention Tesla's. I do think the Trump White House understands that Musk could be a problem for them. And I think if Democrats are smart, they will keep Musk at the center of all of this

because he is just a poster child for the corruption, the grift, the sort of lawlessness, the entitlement, the greed, the, you know, sort of unelected, you know, billionaire storming the federal government. People are not cool with that. And I think you should read a lot into the fact that they changed the wording on that statement. Oh, yeah, I do too.

It means they're conscious of it for sure. It was interesting. I saw there's this Joe Rogan clip where he says something like essentially to the effect of, you know, Elon's too rich to grift. Yeah. Let's listen to Joe real quick. This other thing about Elon, Elon's gonna steal everybody's money. He has $400 billion. I'm telling you, he's not gonna steal your money. I'm telling you that's not what he's doing. What he's doing is he's a super genius that's been

fucked with, okay? And when you've been fucked with by these nitwits that hide behind three-letter agencies and you're dealing with one of the smartest people alive and he helps Donald Trump get in office and he goes, I want to find out what kind of corruption is really around. Well you fucked up. You fucked up and picked the wrong psychopath on the spectrum because he's going to fucking, he's going to hunt you down. He's going to find out what's going on. And that's good. That's good for everybody. That's how you should be looking at this. Like, wow, we have a brilliant mind that is examining these really fucking corrupt and goofy systems and bringing in a bunch of psychopath wizards.

Is that how this works? Is that how this works? Are very rich people like deciding that they don't want to be richer? No, they always want to be richer. I mean, I think that's the thing about really rich people is sky's the limit. Can I also say the guy that nails this and the guy who is the id of MAGA is Steve Bannon and he gets that Musk is a, I mean, we've talked about this. He's a problem. He's not a true believer. I mean, he's in it for Elon and the glory attendant. Yeah. Okay. Do you want to talk about why you can have electric vehicles on the battlefield?

I do. Well, this kind of goes to the Bannon thing, right? There are a number of issues that Musk presents on the right for them too, right? Like, this is not a natural alliance. Like, we saw it with the H-1B. I'm joking, but like, really, this is not a movement that is like really going to be thrilled about the advance of electric vehicles. Wait, can I just say, Tim, like an electric vehicle on the battlefield is like the definition of wokeism. This is the thing that P-TECH has been hired to pull out root and branch. Well, there'd have to be a black trans driver.

If there was a black trans female driver of the armored electric vehicle, then we'd really be woke. The whole thing. But Musk, he embodies the contradictions here. It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make sense. I really do think that there'd be vulnerabilities. I don't think the Rogan position of, oh, he's uncorruptible. He's too rich to be corruptible. I think that that is going to work for the people in my replies on Twitter with the blue

checks who may or may not be from Romania who are like, you know, who are telling me about how Elon, how great Elon is and like posting memes of crying, you know, liberals, you know, via the grok AI. I think like those people will buy that. But I just think like, as this goes along, I do think that regular folks didn't sign up for 400 million in Tesla armored vehicles. No, also like Elon doesn't have it. Like I just think that people need to get back to. Also, like, Elon doesn't have it. Like, I just think that people need

to get back to the essence of, like, this guy is a profoundly lame character. And that is, in Trump High School, which is a place we all live in now and attend, like, he is not the popular dude. That's Donald Trump. He's the captain of the football team. And Elon Musk is some weird person

that has entered the sort of inner sanctum but does not have, he is not going to win any popularity contests. And the longer this goes on and the more Elon has placed front and center, I truly think the bigger problem it is for the Trump administration. Yeah, I think he's the captain of the baseball team.

Trump doesn't really like to be hit. Let's not insult baseball. I'm thinking chess team. I mean, chess is also too, you can be captain of any team, but that doesn't give you, you don't get to make announcements on the intercom. That's I guess what I'm thinking chess team. I mean, chess is also too, you can be captain of any team, but that doesn't give you, you know, you don't get to make announcements on the intercom. That's I guess what I'm saying.

Why can't I insult baseball? I mean, it's just, it's a little bit. I'm part of a very big baseball family. I know, I know. The Mets, you know, and then the kid. I mean, it's great. There's nothing, you can be a great baseball player. It's a little different than being the football player

that's getting tackled. Yeah, let's just, let's your treading on. It's, this is not comfortable for me. I like to, that makes me want to kind of want to pull the thread a little bit more. I mean, baseball is an amazing sport. I'm not going to say that I'm, yeah, I mean, listen, we'll just agree to disagree. We have, we have some more news. We've got the big one coming today.

Three great weeks, all caps, perhaps the best ever. But today is the big one. Reciprocal tariffs make America great again. Trump's got a news conference that will be complete by the time this posts. Where are you on this? I, we have a little intro to bulwark disagreement. On tariffs? Yeah. Well, not about the value of tariffs, about the Trump.

Some people think that it's going to be all the Canadian thing all the way down, right? Like it's all fake. It's all WWE. He's not going to do it. I think that he actually really loves tariffs and I think that he's going to do it. Like I think that we're going to have tariffs. I don't know if they'll be the ones today. I don't know if it'll be in a month, but like eventually he's like a little baby throwing a tantrum and he thinks it's a big, beautiful word and I don't think that he's not going to do it. I don't know. What do you think?

I mean, this is the genius of the strategy. The fact that there's an intra-bullwork debate, which is probably an intra-Canadian debate and an intra-Chinese debate. Like everyone's, I guarantee you, Xi Jinping has a couple advisors who's like, this is, you know, well, it's not all bullshit. But I agree with you. I don't know that it's going to be as spectacular as what he's like, this is, you know, well, it's not all bullshit, but I agree with you. I don't know that it's going to be as spectacular as what he's announced it to be, but I absolutely think he does not like the headlines that say he whiffed it

or he pulled back or hit. This is just, you know, and he doesn't give a shit about the consequences, right? I mean, he loves finding an enemy, especially foreign ones. So yeah, I wouldn't be surprised at all if we actually see some real tariffs. Yeah. The consequence he would care about, I guess, is the market crashing, but he has, to your point, this is, I hate handing it to him and using the word genius, but like he's even submitted the markets on this, right?

Like to, like he puts out this thing this morning, I fully come on that says this, these are going to be the big one, the tariffs and you know, where the markets have only been open for about an hour right now, but they're up. People don't believe, they don't believe him. And so, like there was the pre-market, not crash, but like drop before the big Canadian Mexican tariff announcements. Then he backed off, but he kept the Chinese ones and he kept the steel and aluminum ones. You know what I mean?

That kind of under- Yes. Eventually, you would think that reality would have to intervene, but maybe not. We're waiting for reality to intervene in it. It's been quite shy. Reality has not raised her hand in the Trump Oval Office. It's a stunning thing. Yeah, so far.

All right, speaking of reality, not raising your hand, the other news item of today, RFK is going to be confirmed as Secretary of Health and Human Services. The most interesting thing about all this to me is like, is less that the, the Republicans cave, because I always knew the Republicans would cave. I was hopeful is even the wrong word. I felt like there was an outside chance that Bill Cassidy would show some backbone because he's a doctor and because he'd already impeached Trump. I was gonna bet against it,

but I thought that there was a chance. I was in a dumb and dumber situation. I was like, you're saying there's a chance for Bill Cassidy. But overall, I knew he'd get confirmed. The interesting thing is like, has that really been a big fight from like pharma. There's a political article about this yesterday. Everybody just is kind of like, okay, let's see what happens. Bring whooping cough back and take our chances.

I'm surprised because yesterday the White House released a statement on eggs. They are clearly worried about what bird flu is doing to egg prices and dairy prices. The Trumpflation thing, the groceries thing, the shit he ran on and got elected for to bring costs down is a concern to them. I mean, I don't know if you've tried to buy eggs. We're a big egg house here, Tim. They're very hard to get. I'm not a big egg man. Okay, well, that's your loss. Eggs and baseball. We finally found our areas of disagreement.

My family does eggs, it's just okay for me. Well, they're hard to get and they're really expensive, like everywhere across the country. This is a problem for the Trump administration on a practical, a really practical level. And they're about to install someone who seems categorically, I mean, part of the statement that the White House released yesterday is we inherited this problem with bird flu and it's a Biden problem

that is now landing on our doorstep, but they're about to install someone at HHS who has like zero capacity to deal with any kind of like national health crisis and in fact could make it meaningfully worse. I'm surprised that like at no point, cause they had, they could have, they had a lot of gimmies on this one.

They could have taken them all again and just been like, you know what, they're going full steam ahead with someone who could make one of, I think really a practical economic problem for them, considerably more problematic. So that to me more than the, you know, spinelessness of Senate Republicans, I thought was surprising.

I thought there's actually a vested interest they have in installing someone vaguely competent at HHS, but they're not going to do that, I guess. Where are you just on your expectations of this versus reality? We were together on that bleary late early morning of November 6th and talked for about a minute. If I had told you that night, I was like, Pete Hegsatz will be secretary of defense, RFK Jr. will be secretary of HHS, Cash for tells me FBI. Would you have been like, yeah, that feels right? Like he's one and they're just gonna go do it or has this been a little surprising to you?

I was doing this show called The Circus, which I know you're quite familiar with seeing as you did several seasons. And I remember John Heilman and I went up to see Susan Collins right before her vote on Brett Kavanaugh. And she was so angry at the threats and the left wing sort of cabal coming after her on the issue of abortion. And she was just defiant. And it was clear she was going to vote for Kavanaugh.

I thought, you know what? This is like the only thing you're known for is like trying to protect a woman's right to choose. And you are going to, you are going to like let the Fox into the hen house. And look what happened, Tim. Look what happened. That for me is the moment where I was like,

oh, these guys like truly don't care about anything other than staying in the good graces of the party, staying in power. And like, you know, there have been so many times since then where they've proven their spinelessness and proven their, you know, allegiance to the loudest voice, most powerful voice in the room rather than the, oh, I don't know, the constitution.

So yeah, if you had told me, this is a long windup to use a baseball term, if you had told me on November 6th, that these clowns would be the people installed, I think I would have believed you because it just comes down to whether the Senate Republicans on November 6, these clowns would be the people installed. I think I would have believed you because it just comes down to whether the Senate Republicans have any ounce of integrity left.

And I think they've proven to us that they don't. No, they don't. I mean, except Mitch is trying to pretend like he has some. Well, the Merrick Garland thing. I mean, once you say we're going to change the rules to benefit ourselves and like, we're going to adulterate the institutions in a naked power grab, like then, okay, fine. Like he basically drew a blueprint that everybody's been, you know, working off of in the intervening

years. This is so smart because he did the blueprint and he thought he was going to be in charge the whole time. Right. That's one of these things where we like, let's break the rules and you know, let's use maximum power politics and I'm running the Senate and, you know, let's use maximum power politics. And I'm running the Senate and we'll be able to do this to advance my ends. And like, as it turns out, no, he's, he's alone.

Turns out you got got, turns out the Federalist Society is too mainstream. Like the goalposts can move out of the stadium. See, this is a football metaphor. I'm not quite as good at it. The goalposts can move out of the stadium. See, this is a football metaphor. I'm not quite as good at it. The goalposts can move out of the stadium and down the block into a different zip code. Nobody thought about that, did they? No, Mitch McConnell sure didn't. I think we all know someone who loves taking photos, but there are hundreds of pictures

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And it's great for that. And it's something that I've done. But when I went into Sarah Longwell's office before Christmas, and I saw that she had used the Aura frame for herself to include pictures of office stuff, of our live bulwark events, of little offsite parties that they've had, of, you know, whatever, candid shots, little phone pics that you take from inside the office. And I was like, that is smart. That is good because it's true. I'm like everybody else. I've got all these pictures on my phone. What are they doing there? Am I ever going to use the candid photo that somebody sent me of where I was talking to James Carville and Donald Trump is on

the TV in the background and we're both waving our hands wildly? I probably won't ever use that. That's just going to disappear into the ether of my phone. But if I had an Aura digital picture frame, it could be in the rotation going through on my office desk. So I recommend that you do what Sarah Longwell did and get yourself an Aura digital picture frame. Right now, you can save on the perfect gift that keeps on giving by visiting AuraFrames.com. For a limited time, listeners can get $20 off their best-selling Carver Mat Frame with code BULLWORK. That's AuraFrames.com, promo code BULLWORK. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. One last news item from this morning is this is from our friends at Axios. Jim Van De Heide

gave this one, I think two or three blaring sirens. President Trump and Elon Musk, arguably the two most unorthodox and influential American leaders of the 21st century are practicing and fine tuning a fused theory of governing power, masculine maximalism. What do you think about that? I stopped reading after that. I saw that and I was like, okay, no more. I can tell you the next sentence was about how it was all guys that are in charge and they're just using their maximum power. Finally, is what I say.

Seems to me like it's kind of like small dick maximalism. I mean, like none of these people are, and who are we talking about? Musk, who like lied about his video game prowess and like Trump with his makeup. I just, I don't, like this is all just so, only in DC could they get away with this, I guess. That's what I would say. Yeah, I mean, I think it's like the deepest, darkest part

of masculine insecurity that we're seeing on center stage. I guess that's true. In that sense, it's masculine maximalism. Well, I mean, I guess, I guess it's like the dark part of it. I don't think that it's like the strong part of masculine. First of all, like, I guess, I guess we have to put this in like kind of like obvious gender tropes, right? The return of the white guys. Like I think it is at Democrats peril that they ignore the yearn for traditionalism, which seems to be a huge part of MAGA, right? I don't think that means a capitulation to it, but there is something shifting.

There's something going on socioculturally. And I think, I mean, I don't mean to quote Barack Obama, but here I go, quoting Barack Obama, the idea that America should be for the waking and not just the woke. I think there's something there about like, like a greater tolerance for not the retrograde and not the diminishing, but something that seems more on its face, traditional. I don't know, I don't know how to say this in a way that is not like controversial, but. You're in a safe space for this.

I'm not. Right here you are. I want to podcast, but I do think that like we have to examine what's happening here and why people elected Donald Trump who ran on the like I'm the daddy who's going to spank you. That is not to say the Democrats need to be daddies who spank people,

but like, why is that happening? What is like the platform of the left missing in terms of its inclusivity or its messaging or its policy that is like opening up this space for this insanely ass backwards version of like, the American family and American gender roles? Like, why is this happening? What is going so wrong that this is the snapback that we get?

I didn't plan to go here, but you opened Pandora's box, so we're going to do this. I do think that, to me, I just look at this, just silliness from Axios, but this broader question of the masculinity and the traditionalism, like you said, and how the Democrats, I think could regain some of this by just standing up to these guys with backbone and with authority.

There was this thing during the campaign on the left where it was like, the Democrats can redefine what it means to be a man and like Doug Emhoff and Tim Walls can do that by like being nicer to people. That feels like a challenging project because it's a project that some people will appeal to some people and that other people will mock and roll their eyes at. But like I do think that there's a different way to kind of regain whatever, being masculine, which is standing up to these fuckers and defending people and doing it unapologetically, right? And not having to feel like you're redefining masculine. Yeah.

Being masculine by being sweet. I mean, I don't disagree with you. I guess, I guess I wonder like, what is that? Does that look that different than what they, what Tim Walz tried to do? Do you feel like it was too overt in the, like, I mean, because I think the media narrative is one thing, but just as a practical matter of strategy, I feel like it was like, he's a football guy and he loves his wife and like, he likes Kamala Harris and he's going to roll with her and be her vice president.

And it wasn't like I am explicitly beta. And I'm here to tell you that being beta is just fine. That's true. Even though it kind of was with Doug. I love Doug. I love Doug. So just say this, but there was a moment of like, you saw this in the discourse where it was like, we can model a different way of being a man by standing up for your, like, letting your wife take the lead. I'm all for people letting their wife take the lead and be tough, but like, but there was a subtext of it, of, of men can step back. You think it was just trying too hard.

Of men can step back, of men can, you know, men can be the, the P-flag sponsor. Like men can do that, but by making that the overt pitch, I don't know. Yeah. I mean, I see what you're saying. Like make it, like do it, but make it less obvious. Just do it in a more natural, less forced, less like kind of like you're making a thesis argument for a different kind of masculinity to the American public.

Rather just like behave, show them, do. Or I don't know, maybe the right is like saying that, okay, you can be nice and be a good person but also be tough and punch. I was talking to one of my former Jeb colleagues. Well, who? Wait, the right's saying that? I don't think being nice is part of the message right now.

No, no, on the left. That's what I'm saying. But like, the toughness part, I guess, is what I was saying, which was kind of missed, right? I don't know. I was talking to one of my former Jeb colleagues and I was like, is there anything we could have done? We were a little drunk and we were kind of rehabbing.

Very masculine. Yeah, it was very sad. I'm not the remodel of masculinity here with my pearls, Alex. Sure you are. I'm doing my best. But, and he suggested to me, he goes, you know, I think the one thing that he could have done is when Trump made fun of his wife, he could have punched him. And I was like, literally?

And he was like, literally? Like, had he punched Trump on the face on the debate stage? I mean, yeah, sure. That's where we need to go to. That might have been the thing that could have saved us. Like, if we could have done one thing differently, maybe he needed to punch him. I don't know. Yeah.

I mean, so maybe what you're suggesting is a tougher edge with the same expansive ideas about gender. But like, an ass-kicking version of a beta cuck. I'm kidding. the same expansive ideas about gender. An ass-kicking version of a beta cuck, I'm kidding. So there's pearls and there's loving your wife and there's also punching mega assholes. Can we do all of those things? Listen, can I just say part of it is not about politics. It's just kind of where we are as a society and we're trying to fucking grapple our way through the darkness.

It's complicated. It's really hard and I got to say like people who are just who have been marginalized for a long time and are just getting heard and seen are like, yeah, fuck you. I'm not going back into the darkness. And the people who are on the down slope, which is to say, or feel like they're on the down slope or becoming less powerful in society are like, yeah, fuck that, no way. Like, I like my seat, just fine, thank you so much. And like, this is, we're in like a very intense hinge point, I think, as a society and as a country.

And we have it worse than most because we're a really diverse cacophonous democracy. So this is where we're at. Like regardless of partisan affiliation. This is why you're good with this. This is why you're out in the field. I like you in your circus mode in your Trump Land podcast mode.

Yeah, it's exhausting. Is it exhausting? Oh my God, I have no control over my schedule. I'm actually in the field. I'm like at the protest. I'm talking to the fired IGs. I'm talking to the federal workers. I'm like with the Jan Sixers outside the'm talking to the federal workers, I'm like with the

Jan Sixers outside the jail. I feel like this is your element though. I feel like you're in your element. Can I just say it is so hard, it's so worth it. I felt like we needed to do something different. Like Trump 2.0, there are people doing great work at MSNBC HQ. I don't mean to diminish that at all, but I just felt like given my background doing the field reporting, it was like,

dude, I just want to go out and understand what's happening to this country a little bit better. And so in that way, it's been really worthwhile. We're totally aligned on that. I'm wondering, is there something that you've picked up being out there that you feel like you might've missed had you been doing the studio grind? Oh yeah, well, I mean, I think just talking to the people who are at the center of all of this stuff,

whether it's the January 6 families or Chris Rufo or migrants who are being targeted in raids and federal workers who are like, I don't know what I'm going to do tomorrow whether I have a job or not. I think that it has cultivated a sense of, I always try and work from an empathetic center, but I do think that I am, I feel the chaos and pain more acutely, and I think that that's good for all of us who can get, as consumers and journalists, who can get real desensitized to this.

It's very abstract in a lot of ways, and it's ongoing. It's a fire hose of hell and chaos. And so this helps really distill, like I think it's really important to hear individual stories and that's been profoundly enlightening for me. But in terms of like a hot take that I wouldn't have had, I got to say,

and I think it's probably more on the Trump side that I've had the revelation, like this guy I think has refashioned American politics and expectations that are set for presidents. Like, I don't agree with almost a single thing he's ever done, let alone in this second term, but he has delivered in a huge way. And the people who believed him when they voted for him

feel so vindicated. And it is both a cautionary tale, but also like for a Democrat who comes into office, the expectation I think can and should be, you better work your ass off ASAP. And I don't think that that should be in contravention of the law or in terms of shattering norms and institutions,

but get her done. Trump is going ham. And his folks really believe in him, but even more so now than ever and they believe they're on the path of the righteous. So I want to do a little confessional really quick on the empathy because I'm happy to hear you say that because I feel like this is a shortcoming I have sitting here in my box is like there's the bad part of me inside that like wants things to be terrible because that's the only way anybody will learn.

And that's the only way that I can, some might be the only way that we get through. I guess not the only way, but you know, there needs to be consequences to like risky choices or else like whatever or else we're in Trump land forever. And then I listened to your show and like I hear from the actual people that are suffering because it's not really me that's suffering. Like it's easy for me to say like sitting here. So I don't know. I mean, do you have that like tension inside of you or are those just my sins that I'm trying to deal with? I get a little pessimistic, a lot pessimistic after I'm out for a long time just because I'm seeing this stuff, right? Like I'm talking to the moms who are like telling their kids

before they go to school, if I don't come home or if I'm not here, this is where you go. Cause I might've been deported, right? Like, and as a mom, as a person in the world, like, can you imagine having that conversation with your kid? Like, who's like, you know, a little American kid going to second grade and it's like, what do you mean if you don't come home?

Ever. So that's right, like wrenching. But then I also look at the national narrative around this. I don't see Democrats defending, anybody defending these people who are part of the backbone of the American economy. And it makes me wonder whether if we hit bottom, anybody's going to notice. Because it, man, when you hear these stories and see what's we hit bottom, anybody's gonna notice?

Because it, man, when you hear these stories and see what's happening out there, it's like, wait, this feels a lot like end times. Aren't we supposed to be bouncing back and realizing that we've erred and that like this is all wrong? And then you get polling that it's like, oh no, a vast majority of like a significant majority

of the country like is okay with all of this. I think it's great. And it, I think, suggests that we have become a remarkably desensitized, really uncurious country that doesn't bother giving a shit about anyone who's not us. And that makes me wonder whether hitting bottom for real, for real, is actually the way out of this. All right. Now you're speaking my language.

Okay. You can have empathy and recognize what might be needed. Your episode that's dropping today is about the efforts to eliminate DEI from the federal agencies. The war on woke. There's one example of this one that I guess takes us back to the Russian dark comedy at the start, I guess, which is that some education department employees were placed on leave after taking diversity training. But the end of the gag here is that the diversity training happened during Trump's first term.

Yep. So what else did you do, kind of uncovered for that episode? Well, the Doge purge is like purge by keyword. It's like, is there anything in the resume that has the words DEI in it, regardless of whether you work on DEI, like did you go, for example, these guys who went to training.

It's so want and haphazard and I think that's twofold. One, I think that the haziness of all of this, the lack of standards for who's placed on leave and who isn't gives them ample opportunity to take out people of color or women or people who just are not going to be seen as friendly to a Trump administration agenda. And then for everybody who's not a woman or a person of color or whatever, it just instills fear

and makes them all the more likely to say, you know what, I do not need to live like this. I'm taking the buyout, I'm out of here. And it also, I think, fulfills, it ticks the box that Russell Vogt outlined, which is they want to traumatize federal workers. They see them as the like bleeding heart libs. The USAID stuff is like so vengeful and so personal. They want to punish this group of people who believe in civil service. So the chaos and the confusion in all of this is a multi-pronged assault on specific communities,

the body of the federal government on whole and the institution of civic service. So it's very useful in that way. It's incredibly craving. One of the other episodes you did was talking about the kind of the non-buyout buyout, right? This idea that Elon senses the fork in the road email and it's like if you, it was yesterday, actually, you have to say by February 12th that you want out, and then he sent an email last night that said the fork in the road is closed, which I think is a mixed metaphor. It's turned into a spoon.

I don't exactly know how that works, but, um, according to them, and you have to really say according to them at the beginning of everything at this point, because who the fuck knows, but they said about 77,000 workers accepted the offer. But that's like a pretty standard amount of turnover for a given year in the federal workforce or is it not? I mean, it's like, I think we, it's like the numbers are a little fuzzy, but that's like almost 4% and their target was 5 to 10%. So it's like the numbers are a little fuzzy,

but that's like almost 4% and their target was 5 to 10%. So it's not nothing. So when you were talking to these folks, like some people were doing it because Most of the people I talked to weren't. They'd been advised by their unions, don't do it. who knows what this offer is. Like it could just be a wig. This was such a good point in your piece though, because I was trying to like settle in with me, right? Which is like, sure, you can't trust Trump ever. But like in this specific case, the government funding runs out next month. March 14th.

Right. There's an ongoing battle about it. So like they don't have the money appropriated to give them money for an eight month buyout. So it is a seriously just like, you know, signing a piece of paper. Eight game items will offer them a car. Like you each get a car and a timeshare in Florida. So it is a seriously just like, you know, signing a piece of paper. You might as well offer them a car. Like you each get a car and a timeshare in Florida and like a salary forever.

Like none of it, now maybe they'll make good on it, I don't know. But I also just don't think, I don't think it's, right, like they're not done. They're not done getting, gutting the government. That's like 4% of the government that said, yeah, I'll take I'll raise my hand for this bogus potentially bogus offer But then they're gonna also just fire people so It ain't over. No, it ain't let's talk about the pushback to it you spoke to Just a such a sweet Inspector general who was just so sweet and earnest, God love him, about caring about, he was talking about how he wanted to, like his job was concerns about efficiency. And he was like,

my mission should be aligned with Elon and Donald Trump's mission. And I was just like, poor guy, you just don't, you don't see it. I got it, they don't, it's fake. Anyway, you talked to some of the Inspectors General, you were at the protests, like talk about kind of what your sense is from the kind of the pushback at this point. So I will say the inspectors general are not a bunch of like liberal party animals, right? Like they're very circumspect. They're very by the book. One of them who I talked to, Michael Missal, was the Inspector General for the VA, where there's like, you know, it's a sprawling bureaucracy and you definitely want the hands on the captain's wheel

in terms of waste, fraud, and abuse. There's like a number, I feel like there's constantly stories of scandals unfolding at the VA, having to do with waste, fraud, and abuse. And he is actually part of a group of several Inspectors General who this week have decided to sue the administration for wrongful termination because there's a very clear playbook or set of protocols by which you can fire

an inspector general and Trump of course didn't follow it. So I do think while they may not have the sharpest language and not have the most revelatory ideas about why they were fired and the mendacity of this administration, they're not going quietly into the night. I mean, they are going to fight back in the, I think, the most buttoned up, you know, lawful way possible, but they're raising their hands and legally and saying you can't do this to us. That's resistance. The resistance as we see is all in the courts, Tim. Yeah. And like I think there's like, there's the good and the bad, right?

Like some of the courts are gonna be great I think there's the good and the bad, right? Some of the courts are going to be great. If we get to the Supreme Court, I think Trump has a real shot of getting a lot of what he wants if not everything he wants. So, I mean, the other part of the resistance is the American public. And I do think it's been just stressing to see the lack of engagement on any of these topics

that should fire up the American citizenry. So Dave Weigel, who I love, always read Dave Weigel at semaphore. He has a great newsletter, Americana, I think it's called. He wrote this this morning, and it is that the new resistance to Donald Trump's presidency had a plan. State Attorneys General from Maine to Hawaii would rush to court to stop vast portions of the agenda he spent years promising to deliver. Weigel writes, there's a weird thing going on where the massive liberal lawyer alliance is winning cases, the White House is denouncing it, and the mood is that wimpy Dems are blowing it. I take his point, and I think you sort of explain this, right? There's this bifurcated quote unquote resistance effort, right? There is the legal

effort to just literally resist the letter of the rules, I won't even say laws, the letter of the actions that have been put in place extra legally in a lot of cases by Elon and his cronies. But then like there's the political resistance, right? Which is, this is bad, like convincing people that this is bad and harmful and that it should be rejected. Like that is the part that feels limp to me. Very, very, very limp. I mean, I think the legal front, first of all, they've been ready for this, you know, before the, even the election, these legal groups, they knew what was coming and they were prepared and the state AGs, hats off to them,

they've been tenacious and very fast. But the courts are the courts and we are talking about politics here. And like I talked to Chris Rufo yesterday, the architect of like a lot of Trump's anti-woke agenda and he's like, we got the public is with us 100%. And until and unless there is real public disfavor and a sense that the public isn't with them,

then maybe they're right. I don't believe that they are because I fundamentally don't believe that the values that are being reflected in this administration are in sync with where the country that I know is at. But I mean, where is everyone? I think people feel demoralized and beaten down

and confused and just overwhelmed. But I also don't think that's an excuse because this is the country and like it's all moving fast, but that's exactly why people need to get involved if they have an issue with it. This is why to me it's like both parts of the resistance need to work for it to be effective. We have Preet on tomorrow, so we'll get deeper into the legal side of this. But to me, tomorrow. So we'll get deeper into the like legal side of this. But like to me, if only the legal side is successful, like that actually could be a long-term loss, right? It could be short-term gain for people whose jobs are protected. And that's great. And they should, you know, everybody should fight, you know,

for their own interests. And I support that. But like, you know, let's say that the courts end up blocking whatever, 60% of what Musk's tried to do, right? And they get 40% through and they're able to then say like, Oh, these woke judges stopped us from doing more. And because we only did 40%, like there's actually not that much backlash because people don't, don't really experience, you know, the totality of what their agenda was.

I could end up being kind of a win-win for them a little bit, right? If they're like, okay, well, the court's blocked, like the totality of what their agenda was, it could end up being kind of a win-win for them a little bit, right? If they're like, okay, well, the court's blocked like the worst part of our ideas. And so we get to do some of this other stuff and then kind of then make the courts the bad guys and use that as a rationale for further political victories and further illiberal actions.

I would say also like the more cases that the Supreme Court is really good at nibbling around the edges and a number of things in each of its opinions, right? Like the affirmative action case, you know, with Harvard and admissions, you know, that's the the jurisprudence are working off of to do all this DEI stuff, right? Like the there's precedent set in all of these rulings. Honestly, regardless of whether they're favorable or not favorable, Clarence Thomas opens the door to maybe rescinding gay marriage

and throwing that out the window too. You don't want to have to get the whole Trump agenda in front of the six three majority on the Supreme Court. Like that's not a great long-term play to your point. And like public outcry matters. It really pissed Trump off that there was a women's march the day after his inauguration. It really did. And maybe, I mean, I don't know how that, you

know, informed the decisions he made in the weeks thereafter, but I do think the public saying this isn't us, you can't do this in our name is really meaningful and it helps. I think the machinery of democracy requires that. I'm going to say this to I'm blue in the face. There might have been some cringe. We might roll our eyes at the pink pussy cats or whatever now,

but the resistance worked the first time. I mean, he didn't repeal Obamacare. He got crushed in the midterms. He lost in 2020. It didn't work in the sense of it didn't create a lasting coalition that prevented him from getting power again. And that is terrible. And people, they, the Democrats should reassess their strategies and what to do moving forward. But just like the question of, should we protest?

Should we do everything possible to try to stop him? Should we scream from the rooftops? There is like this conventional wisdom that is like congealing like that isn't useful, like whatever. And it's like, I don't think that's true. It doesn't have to be just a generalized march. There are really specific things and specific groups of peoples and institutions that could be at the center of any and every protest. And I think that that would have a maybe more meaningful impact in Trump 2.0 than just a

you know, kind of a march on the mall. Like when I was outside the Treasury Department, it was like, it wasn't huge, but it was like a thousand people and it felt like, okay, this is both a protest and a rally, right? This is in a meaningful inflection point for the Democrats and the citizens who are watching this and are not okay with it.

And there needs, I think, to be more of that and should be targeted. And there should be specific demands, like you cannot do this thing. Generalized resistance may not be that effective this time around, but man, he's given a lot of explicit examples to push up against. And you don't know what will spark things. Like who would have thought that some CNBC guys rant would have turned into the tea party?

You know what I mean? Like you don't know what ends up sparking something that has massive event. Okay. One last episode was a couple of weeks ago, but it was so, I don't know, I was about to say powerful, but I don't know, depressing maybe was, it'd be a better word. I wanted to play a clip from one of the conversations you had outside of the prison after Trump pardoned the January 6th. You've been out here holding vigil. Who do you, who do you have inside? I got Jonathan Pollack and Olivia Pollack. We came up we were all as a family came up on January 6th

and then with our church and I got I got friends and Michael Perkins and he's gonna be released out of Coleman in Florida and then I got another buddy on an ankle monitor all my friends are locked up right now. What happened with your, is your son and daughter? Yes. What exactly, what are they in for? Ah, they're in for about everything. We looked up the exact charges and just about everything isn't a bad description. Jonathan faced 17 counts and multiple alleged felonies, including assaulting officers with a dangerous weapon.

In Jonathan's case, that meant charging at police with a flagpole. Do you think now that he's pardoned everybody, he can count on this group of people again? Oh, absolutely. I would die for the man. I would have died for him that day. I would die for the man. Wolf.

Wolf. I mean, I also, you know, to our earlier point, like, where are the Democrats, the asymmetry of the passion is like these folks, they feel like, you know, the sun has finally come out and they've been, you know, like they're, I cannot tell you the amount of like the joy, the celebration, the feeling that like, everything was right in the world again.

I mean, and I will say Trump, like half the people I talked to had had gotten personal phone calls from Trump. They had been invited to Mar-a-Lago. Like he does constituent outreach, Tim, in a big way. And- He was working. I was hoping he was just going to golf.

No. Like dude is working. Like he was doing, he did that press conference with the guy that was in jail in Russia. They had the prisoners. Mark Fogel. Yeah. Fogel. It was like 11 o'clock at night. You know, he's out there doing it and like guys like having four press conferences a day is calling these people. Like he's, he's working. That's bad news. Well, and his people are with him, which is why it's like, you gotta hear from these people because it's like, the other side has gotta hear that

and like scrape itself off the floor and get back into the ballgame. The sky's saying he'd die for Donald Trump, right? Now I'm not suggesting that people need to die for Chuck Schumer or whatever, but like, man, like, can you show up to a protest or like do something? I don't know. The asymmetry is staggering.

Scrape yourself off the floor. That's going to be a good place for us to leave it. Alex, thanks for doing this. No, I'm sorry. That's good. I was like, I was going to try. I was like, whoo, man, I'm leaving people with the guy whose kid that speared a cop is getting out of jail and he's thrilled about it.

That's kind of a dark place to leave the episode, but scrape yourself off the floor is a good place to leave it. So we'll do it with that. Okay. We'll take it. You've got what? How many more days on the road do you got? A million?

I don't know. I've spent how many weeks of the Trump administration? I think four. I have till the end of April, whatever day it is. Okay. At the end of April. We got Jazz Fest down here the first weekend of May. If you want to come down, hang out and have that purple drink with me. I do. Oh my God. You mean purple drink, that perp. I'm ready. That sounds good. Well, if we don't do that, we'll have you back on for a 100 day recap.

Yeah. I'll be scraping myself off the floor then, buddy. All right. Thanks so much to Alex Wagner. Everybody else will be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Borg Podcast. See you all then. Peace. Gotta run through the wrecks with my man on my back I fell in love with the motherfuckin' wrecks I fell in love with the motherfuckin' stacks No, I cannot fall in love with no net Hit from the back then I pull out her drugs

I come in first, no, I can't come in last I know nobody out here got my back Everything I say, I know that's a fact Gotta run through the wrecks with my man on my back I fell in love with the motherfuckin' wrecks I fell in love with the motherfuckin' stacks No, I cannot fall in love with no net Hit from the back then I pull out her tracks

I come in first, no, I can't come in last I know nobody out here got my back Everything I say, I know that's a fact No, don't divert, yeah, I came with the cash Niggas, they mad, cause they bitch on my ass Niggas, they mad, cause I pulled out the racks Don't got my gun, then you probably get stabbed I do the crime and I don't need a mask

I still walk around, but man on my ass I ain't walk around with a whole lot of gas Not in no mall, but I'm poppin' them tacks Yeah, yeah I move around like an alien One of my best friends, they move like a felony Yeah, yeah I'm not in stitch, I'm not tellin' him

If he get locked up, you know that I'm balance Gotta run through the wrecks with my man on my back I fell in love with the motherfuckin' wre back I fell in love with the motherfuckin' wrecks I fell in love with the motherfuckin' stacks No, I cannot fall in love with no net If I'm in the back, then I pull out her drugs I come in first, no, I can't come in last I know nobody out here got my back

Everything I say, I know that's a fact Gotta run through the racks with my man on my back I fell in love with the motherfuckin' wrecks I fell in love with the motherfuckin' stacks No, I cannot fall in love with no neck If we're in the back then I pull out her tracks I come in first, no I can't come in last I know nobody out here got my back

Everything I say I know that's a fact The wrecks with my man on my back I fell in love with the motherfuckin' wrecks I fell in love with the motherfuckin' stacks No, I cannot fall in love with no neck If we're in the back then I pull out her tracks I come in first, no I I can't come in last. I know nobody out here on my back.

Everything I say, I know that's a fact. The Bullork Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with Audio Engineering and Editing by Jason Brown.