The Bulwark Podcast - Alyssa Farah: Trump's Big L in Indiana

Episode Date: December 12, 2025

Despite death threats and harassment, Republicans in Indiana delivered the biggest political setback to Trump since officials in Georgia wouldn’t help him find 11,780 votes in 2020. Turns out, some conservatives at the state level still have enough principles to not gerrymander on demand. Meanwhile, antisemitism, white nationalism, and neo-Nazism are flourishing among the very online right, including among people who used to be showcased by Fox. And they’re chewing on and mainstreaming some of the deepest, darkest conspiracies out there. But now those voices are more influential than the cable channel—even our vice president, ever mindful of 2028, won’t distance himself from the crowd. Plus, MTG’s come to Jesus moment, and the PR instead of reporting that is happening in the press room at the Pentagon Alyssa Farah Griffin joins Tim Miller for the weekend pod. show notes Tim's 'Bulwark Take' on Tucker and Candace Friday's "Morning Shots" Mother Jones on Posobiec's PR moves at the Pentagon ABC's "The View" Tim's playlist

Hello and welcome to the Bullwark podcast. I'm your host to Miller. Delighted, welcome back to the show, co-host of The View, political commentator for CNN. She used to work for Trump and Mike Pence and some other people. It's Alyssa, Farah Griffin. What's going on, girl? How you doing? It's been too long.

I know. It's so good to see you. I am literally your biggest listener. I don't think I've missed a pod since the last time I was on, which was like well over a year and a half ago. Yeah. Why has it been so long? And you should be giving me some negative feedback then. I mean, I can't be nailing it every day.

So honest, I was going to tell you this off air. But my husband and I got together with new neighbors. And you know, you're trying to like feel out, like sniff out, who they are, what they're into? And my husband's more delicate than me. So he's like, so what like, what are you listening to any good podcasts? and the guy says the bulwark and I was like, we found our people.

If you said Candace Owens, it'd be tough. We're going to get to Candace. Well, why we're glazing each other a little bit. I guess you guys played a clip of the Olivia Nutsi podcast on The View. Now, I'm working during the day during the view. So, you know, I'm watching you guys via clips only. It's nothing but love. But, you know, that's just like.

I don't think anyone under 50 listens watches other than through clips. I was going to say, though, my mother's friends, when you played that clip, my mother said her phone was exploding. 10, 11 texts from her friends about just my face appearing on the view. So thank you for that. We have to make it your not first official appearance, though. We've got to have you on in some way in like the flesh. You just let me know.

And you're having a baby. We're going to just do this first, too. Then we'll do politics. I am seven months pregnant. And if I'm out of breath, sweating, then cold, then cranky, like all of the things are happening right now. But I'm so excited. I would guess three months. You're looking great.

I like to shoot from here up. I think we're going to have a happy podcast, which is out of character. But there's just been a lot of setbacks for MAGA over the past couple days. The loss for Trump and the gerrymandering fight in Indiana is something I want to spend quite a bit of time on. They proposed some new maps that would have taken the state from being a 7-2 split with seven Republican congressional seats and two Democratic congressional seats to a 9-0 absurd. gerrymander that would have given Democrats no representation at all in Indiana, and the Republican State Senate rejected it. I think it's the most consequential setback for Trump within the party, you know, at least our pushback within the party since really Athensberger and Kemp tried to

block him from stealing the election in 2020. You might remember that. There's a 3119 vote in the Indiana Senate. 21 Republicans joined the 10 Democrats in the state Senate to vote against it. So it was 21 Republicans voted against only 194, so a majority against. I didn't even think this was going to be a big fight. You know, it's hard to have envisioned this happening a couple months ago. And to me, it signals some real bad news for Trump about his like lame duckedness and political standing. But what did you make of it? A bunch of things. I do think it's hugely significant. For one, the fact that this was just talking about adding two seats. It wasn't like we're going to massively, which, which by the way matters when you've got a slim majority and he wants to keep the house.

But this wasn't his own party bucking him because he was trying to do something so beyond the pale. I think that it reminded me that there are Republicans and conservatives at the state level who might still believe in some things, their own state held power, the way they conduct their elections, the way that they draw their congressional districts. Because I know you, like I, have been so frustrated to see so many people we've known over the years, frankly, over the decades, who've kind of just folded on every major issue. this is one where it felt like a state, a very red state, Mike Pence's home state that Trump's won, really reinserting its power. And what's also interesting is the dynamics of these threats that some of these lawmakers were facing. They're getting harassment. They're getting death threats. It's interesting to see when like the power of how Trump compels his enemies also is directed at those who really aren't his enemies and are generally with him on most things. It's like,

it's like Marjorie Taylor Green all over again where these lawmakers, I bet, have voted. for him every time. I bet they support 99% of his agenda, but they're like, you know what, we're going to draw our own congressional maps. We're going to make these decisions in the state how we want to. And they're treated no differently than like the biggest MAGA opponent out there. Yeah, the one example of the threats, the story I read, I think this is over at CNN, was there's a 76-year-old state-centered Indiana Gene Leasing, I think you said her name. She was speaking at her grandson's middle school. And then later in the day, after she came back to pick him up from basketball practice, he, like, kind of was embarrassed to tell her that the other players in the team were

receiving text messages, like, dogging her that day. And there was pressure being put on the grandkids, basically, like saying, like, tell your grandmother to get in line and give Mr. Trump what he wants. And she was basically like, hell no. I've not lived 76 years that my grandson be bullied for this gerrymander district on behalf of Donald Trump. I love that. I love that. 100%. But then also, like, the bigger picture of this is if you're going into the midterms from a place of confidence and like you're proud of your agenda and you feel like the country's thriving, you're not trying to gerrymander the shit out of states to get yourself more seats. That's just, it's not giving confidence. And I think that like, listen, the average ballot like Dems are off by plus 14 points.

That's not a great place to be if you're Mike Johnson, if you're the Trump administration. And I think they're realizing it's going to be a lot harder to make the case for keeping the house than it is to try to win these state-level battles like Texas and Indiana. Mike Johnson was screaming this morning in the hallway about how this wasn't that big of a loss and Trump's not a lame duck, not a lame duck. And it was kind of reminiscent of like my second grader went like she lost her math notebook yesterday and I found it. I was like, why did you put it there? And she's like, I found it. I found the math book. And I was like, no, you didn't.

I found it. You know, it's just like, the only thing you can resort to is just adamantly, like, yelling. And he felt like a child just like yelling. It's not a lame duck. He's still strong. He's still very strong. It's like, I don't, I think you're yelling is betraying the truth of the situation. 100%.

And I still don't understand how people like Speaker Johnson think this is going to go any differently than it went for Paul Ryan, for Kevin McCarthy before him. and for him. You've even got now this reporting that Marjorie Taylor Green might even try to do like a vote of no confidence in him before she leaves the house. A, I love the pettiness of it, good for her. But there's also such a frustration in the conference. Like, Republicans are not happy with Johnson. They feel like him keeping them out of session to like not vote on the Epstein files. They know that's hurting them in their midterms ahead. So I think it's a, he knows it's bigger than the anger he's going to get from Trump. but it's also his own people.

Speaking of pettiness and revenge, do you think your old boss? And it feels like your old boss, Mike Pence, was involved in this. And there's some reporting that he is doing things behind the scenes. It's hard for me to tell exactly how much, but it seems like he was making some calls, whipping.

I have no personal knowledge. But I would say I think that he's an old school conservative in the sense that he believes these decisions should be made by the state lawmakers without federal pressure, without the president even threatening to withhold federal aid to the state. And I think it's pretty aligned with his viewpoints of how Indiana should be able to make determinations on their congressional maps. And I did notice

Tim Chapman, who former Heritage Action, been in the conservative movement a million years and now working with Pence, he pushed back super hard at Heritage Action for basically coming out in criticizing Indiana for this decision. So it was worse than that. Heritage Action was like, had sent this tweet that was basically like, if you don't give Mr. Trump, but he wants to, once. Like, we're not going to give you road fund. Yeah. Oh, they've gone full authoritarian. This iteration of heritage is mind blowing. I stopped even arguing with them because I'm like, when you guys are like defending Victor Orban, you're for like bigger federal government reaching into states to punish states decisions. Like, I don't really know. We don't even meet on anything. Like, it's not even worth the conversation.

That's interesting. Well, I like to think that Pence is behind the scenes, you know, involving himself. Me too. I usually don't kind of get enamored with like. the political fan fiction, you know, kind of stuff about the behind secret machinations and payback. And I kind of think it happened, though, this time. I think that there were machinations. It feels like the fact that this happened in Indiana is not an accident. Well, and if I could just add on that, too, if that is the case that there's, there's Pence involvement, I think it would go, it would be partially about the role of the state, as I said, in setting its own congressional maps. But also, there's major agenda sticking points that

pensies differently from Trump 2.0. And one of them, he's been huge, huge in pushing back on the tariffs. And that's absolutely hurting Indiana, big agricultural state, big manufacturing state. So I think it's not he, it's very unpency to do something purely out of pettiness. It would be because there's a substantive disagreement that he has. Well, coming up on that part of the year around Christmas, you know, where the mornings are cold, you're just staying around the house a lot. You know, you're not. You're like, you're looking for something cozy to put on. But you're going to be in pictures, you know, so you want to look good on Instagram, too.

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slash the bulwark for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada two. That's QINCE.com slash the bulwark. Free shipping and 365 day returns at quince.com slash the bulwark. Another bad news sign this morning. My colleague Andrea Eger wrote about this in morning shots. Do you know who the chair of the RNC is? I literally had to go. Google this before we were on. I was like, how do I not? I thought it was Mike Watley, but it's not. Yeah, because he's going to run for Senate now. Yeah, he's running North Carolina. I also, I saw this guy's name this morning and I was like, it just shows you how much Trump has like taken over everything. You know, it's just like he has totally sidelined all of the

other institutions of the Republican Party, which will be, you know, interesting when he goes away, just going to see how that all shakes out. But some guy named Joe Gruders from Florida, I guess, a friend of Susie Wiles, a mega guy is now the chair of the RNC. And he was doing a conservative radio rounds this week. He said, it's not a secret. There's no sugar-coding it. There's a pending looming disaster heading our way. He said, we're facing almost certain defeat.

The chances are Republicans will go down and will go down hard. That's the chairman of the Republican National Committee. How do you raise money from the, how do you go to people and say, please give me $100,000 now after I just told you we're going to go down and go down hard? I should say the RNC did reply that the bulwark is nothing more than a bunch of shameless hacks laundering false smears. I don't understand how they're false smears. It was literally just quoted what he said on the radio. But anyway, I guess it tells you all you need to know.

I'm not even really sure what my question is. But what are your thoughts on the RNC's analysis? I mean, I think it's very spot on. I think at least they seem aware of the moment that we're in. And you can't chalk this up to expectation setting. It'd be one thing if we were a month out from the midterms. They're like, listen, it's going to be a tough battle. And we've got an uphill.

That's what you do in politics, unless you're Donald Trump and you say you're going to win it all and set expectations sky high. But the Republican Party has struggled since Trump has been in the political sphere to win when he's not on the ballot. And they're going into what they went into in 2018, what they went into in 2022, again, in these midterms, which is his agenda is on the ballot. But you don't have him lifting other candidates by having his name. and his energy on the ticket. And I'm not sure what their plan is going to be. It's clearly not a fundraising boon to be saying, we're giving up a year out. What do you make of that, though?

I mean, we would have gotten fired if we said something like this. Well, and I was just going to say, I think this guy would have gotten fired in Trump one point. I think it's kind of maybe he's too focused on the ballroom and stuff to, like, care about this. I don't know that he cares about the RNC that much. Yeah, right. Originally, there was like a power struggle.

You know, that's why he kind of brought Reince over, you know, in the first term, because He was still figuring out, you know, how to open all the doors in D.C. And, like, didn't even expect to win himself, right? And wanted to make sure he had control over everything. But now I agree with you. And, like, he, like, he dominates everything so much. It's like, who cares what the RNC says? But still, it's just so untrumpy to be like, the chances are we're going down and we're going down hard.

Like, he may have not seen it yet either. And we may get a truth social later. Like, this guy's a clown and doesn't know what he's talking about. Yeah, that's true. I guess it's probably just a guy that's not very well media trained. And he has stating the obvious. this is a classic McKinsey laugh, you know, where you say something that everybody knows is true, but you're just not supposed to say out loud. I mean, it also, to your point earlier,

like, it is weird how they don't seem to be trying. Like, three months ago, I would have taken a much more dark view of this where I'm kind of like, I don't know that they actually care about elections because they're not intending on contesting them. Trump's planning on cheating in some way or, you know, doing what he did last time and, like, not seating Democrats that win because they're, you know, like, you know, make up some lie about the butterfly ballot or whatever. But now I don't, I don't, it doesn't feel like that is what's happening based on what happened a couple weeks ago, or last month now, I guess, in New Jersey and Virginia. My assessment is that the party is just so dependent on Trump.

They don't have a North Star message-wise, you know, outside of whatever Trump wants. And Trump feels like he just doesn't care about this stuff anymore. Like, I think he really does care about, like, hanging out with billionaires and getting peace prizes and getting his name on new building. That's my assessment. And remodeling. Right, yeah. And, like, he doesn't care about what is happening in the midterms or, you know, coming up with a winning policy message that will help Republicans down ballot. Well, it's interesting.

I generally agree with that. But so I want to say it was late August. I said on the view that I thought if the election was reheld that day, Trump would win likely by the same if not a bigger margin. Now, that got gasps and booze and headlines. And I was not saying that's the outcome I would agree with that. Yeah, what's the outcome I wanted. But they're in two veins that people who were diehard with him were just as much with him. And you have to run something against someone.

And I don't think that there had been some sort of defining thing that made the Democrats come back and feel more formidable. But something happened in the September, October, now through November space. And I think it's a combination of the Epstein betrayal, Republicans in the House basically just absolutely. absolutely dipping out for not just the month of August as they always do, but not voting for basically eight weeks, not looking like they're serving the public. And then finally feeling the real impacts of tariffs, the fact that he ran on affordability, he ran on the cost of living, he got elected on that. And everything with the exception of the stock market, which has good days, has bad days, feels like it's more expensive. People can't get ahead. And I think he, I think

his voters feel betrayed. I think it's people within MAGA that do as well. And there seems to be this real weakness. It is kind of encapsulated in the Marjorie Taylor Green come to Jesus moment of like, it's one thing to run on how you're going to make everything great, but then you're a year in and if people are not feeling that, they'll turn on you fairly quickly. They being the voters, but not the elected officials because they have not learned how to exist in a world where Donald Trump is not like daddy and in charge of everything. And they're standing by him to their own detriment in many ways. They're the ones who are going to have to go to their constituents and say, oh, yeah, vote me back when your Obamacare premium spike, when the cost of all groceries

are up, and when we just literally lied about releasing the Epstein files, and it had to be the Democrats that forced them to get out, and a handful of Republicans. What do you think about that counterfactual now? If we re-held the election today, who do you think would win? It's honestly still a hard question because of the binary of our politics. I think there's a bit of very deep frustration with the status quo and with him and with the economy that could make it go a different direction. But I also am not convinced that people are dying for what Democrats put up last cycle. What do you think? It's hard for me to say out loud

the Democrats. I haven't thought about, I haven't like done this little exercise in my brain for a while. I remembered when that little clip of yours went viral. And I was like, that's obviously true to me. What you were saying at the time, I thought it was very obvious that despite, you know, Trump's very struggles with tariffs, which was, I guess, the main thing, man that he stole one again. And I'm trying to think about, like, what are the demos that would flip at this point? And Hispanic voters is one that you're seeing and young voters. You know, I think that, like, that probably, you know, the young voter would probably snap back to a more traditional type. But that's a small part of the electorate, which is, you know, they're less Democrat than they'd been traditionally.

And Hispanic voters, I think, particularly like working class Hispanics, I think would kind of go back to, like, more of, you know, how it was with Biden in 20 rather than rather than the gains of 24. Is that enough to flip at any states? As you were talking, I pulled up Arizona, and I was like, how much did he win in Arizona by? He won't by five and a half. I don't know. I kind of wonder if he still would win again. And I think that to your point about the Democrat struggles, I think that Mikey Cheryl and Abigail Spanberger ran very strong races in New Jersey and Virginia overperformed.

That would be the counterpoint to this. But I think those very unique, you're talking about state races, and I think that the national Democrats do still have kind of a brand problem on this stuff that they haven't fixed. It's hard to fix without a leader, right? Like, who would fix it right now? Like, who's the leader of the party, Schumer? You know what I mean? There isn't really one.

I was on Gavin Newsom's podcast yesterday, maybe him. But that vacuum, I think, is why I'm hesitant to say that, damn it. That's the thing. Like, if this was Europe and you're like, would a vote of no confidence succeed today? I think a vote of no confidence in this administration would succeed, but you have to have that alternative. I do think you're absolutely right. Mikey Sherrill and Abigail Spanberger ran smart. And they didn't make their whole personality being against Donald Trump.

People's opinions are pretty baked on Trump. They focused a lot on the same issues like I got him elected, affordability, health care, rising costs, safety in communities. And they did it in a way that, like, they were actively courting people who probably voted for Trump to vote for them. Like, that's how you win in a purple state, and it's how you win nationally. Yeah, it's interesting. They both exceeded expectations by a lot.

And I don't feel like there's been an update in the conventional wisdom in left circle. You're kind of deep in left circles on the view. I'm wondering what you think about this. Like, the conventional wisdom in the left circles was after the election, democracy to learn some things for Trump. I agree with that, you know, about how you communicate, you know, being more in your face, like controlling the narrative better, you know, and, you know, also, like, focusing on working class people's concerns.

Like, those were kind of the two takeaways. And everybody's like, well, Zoran did that very well. Like, he was good at dominating the narrative, good at focusing on working class concerns. He did that. But, like, Cheryl really, like, her actual electoral performance was more impressive, given like the what happened in New Jersey in 24 versus 25 and she is like the opposite of what the conventional wisdom on the left was like she was not running as like a fire breathing fighter who's going to like really jack up the base and what do you think about that and do you think

that like we're kind of reliving you know a little bit of 2015 where like there's just kind of no amount of facts that will change like the democratic base and elites are so enraged about everything that they want somebody who's going to you know rub the other side's face in the dirt and that's more important than anything else. It's feeling, actually, that's a better analogy that I'd use. It's feeling very 2015. But I'd also say, like, what I hear a lot from my friends on the left is, like, we want an opposition party.

But you guys are an opposition party. You could get more effective, like the strategy of opposition, I think, has at times been, like, chaotic, if not just feckless. But you also just need to be an alternative. And I think there's the people out there, like the James Carvels of the world who are, you know, pointing to these two moderate wins. that they had and that those are states that are purple as opposed to deep blue Manhattan that you should take lessons from.

But I've heard more folks who are like, we want Zora and Mimdani, we want Jasmine Crockett. Our country is so polarized. It's so split. And I feel like there are more folks who would like to believe that Trump is a fluke, despite having been elected twice and won the popular vote, then try to understand that our country might not be exactly how each of our ideologies are. And the closer you could be to the center, the more likely. you are to win nationally. I'm also, like, totally bullish that if something dramatic doesn't

happen, we have three years, I think the Dems are going to nominate Kamala Harris again. I think they're going to run it back. I really do. I know that's not popular wisdom. I think they're going to run it back. I think they're going to, I don't know, but Gavin's been interesting. I think it's an uphill battle, but from a messaging standpoint, he's been interesting. Yeah. I don't know about the Kamala prediction. That's a bold one. It's nice. You're officially a pundit now with like the Bill Crystal style predictions like that. The James Crawford a line as the Democratic nominee always is the person that can win the black church

and that's been the nominee every cycle and so that would be the strongest case for running it back. The thing about Zoron I think this is important to kind of dissect because everybody what's the line about how winning has a thousand fathers and losing as an orphan or something like that? Everyone wants to

project their own interpretation of why Zoran succeeded onto him. But to me the one thing that's like important to just recognize that I think is makes him a little bit of category difference from what we've seen from Crockett so far. She could change her strategy is that like both him and Trump did actually try to get voters from the other side.

Yeah. Some people in my world on the left like have trouble processing that. They're like, what are you talking about? Trump wasn't a moderate. He was so extreme. And like he wasn't trying to get people from the other side. But he was just like not in the way that you would think in his weird way, right? Like he was trying to get over Tulsi Gabbard and RFK Jr. people from the other side.

And I'm like, he wasn't trying to get moderate. voter is like, I'm fiscally conservative and socially moderate, right? Like, it wasn't those type of moderate voters. It was different. But he was trying to give people the other side. And Zoran did that. Like, actively went after Trump voters and, like, tried and spoke to them. And I think that that's, anyway, I do think that's an important lesson's getting lost a little bit.

We do still forget the, like, Venn diagram of populist left and populace, right? There is an area of overlap. That and also he just ran a smarter campaign. He was where you needed to be on TikTok, on, you know, popular. who he was talking to. He's running a, you know, 20, 25 race. And Cuomo was a terrible candidate. I interviewed him. And I was like, what happened to like Cuomo of, you know, COVID era? What's it like being in such a deep blue lib bubble right now? Like, it's so different for you. I've been doing it for a while. At the beginning, it had to be a little disorienting.

But now you're like in there. Okay, I get your pals with the ladies and stuff. You know, it doesn't feel like you're doing the Megan McCain thing where they hate you. Yeah, I can genuinely say I really get along with all the women. And it's a learning thing for me. And it's actually super eye-opening still. And I'm like going on five years into this or I guess four years coming up on five. It is interesting coming from my world, which is not, mine's, my world was for much further right than yours was.

But to meeting people who just see so many things fundamentally differently than you. But the more time you spend with them, like you get at why they do. And you get that there's, there's depth there. There's reason. There's lived experience. Even if there's certain things we're absolutely never going to agree. on. I find it to be totally fascinating. I think it's made me think deeper about my own positions. I don't think it's dramatically changed ending. On what? I think that I have a much more

holistic picture, particularly around the way that race folds into politics. I think there's something that whoopies cared about her entire career in public life. I think Sonny Hosten talks about with a lot of, I mean, I many, many times don't agree with their conclusions. But I think it's been easy for me to sort of dismiss things as talking points that are so deeply rooted in people's held positions. And I think both of them have opened my eyes to, like, how that factors into things that I might have seen differently. So any of that going the other way? Are they ever saying stuff where you're just like, guys, I got to take you down to a NASCAR race or something? You guys don't understand what's happening. You're too, you're too in sconsed in your bubble.

I think the one that I was, and I said this to all of them directly is like, I'm like practically. in some ways like an abundance Democrat. Like I'm totally like where like I'm like to the sense that I'm a centrist Republican, but I'm like my biggest critiques of Democrats actually aren't the identity politics or the like more annoying in your face things. It's that I'm still convinced that Republicans at the local level just make things work better, quicker and like I care about economics. So I feel like I sometimes want to like knock my head against a wall when I'm like, no,

but like California is such a poorly run state from virtually every standpoint. That's the one where I'm like, no, you all have made me dig in even deeper there. You said that you think calm was going to run it back. So obviously there's something there's something there that you think is landing. And she went back and did her second round after it was like her appearance on the view that got her in trouble during the campaign. What was your sense for her like book tour stuff? Well, I wouldn't be clear. I don't think she should run again.

And if the polling was there, she should have run for governor. I think that would have made sense, start a think tank, be a, you know, an elder stateswoman of the Democratic Party. I do not think she should run again. My sense with her is I have, like, I have this genuine affection for Kamala Harris. I've now interviewed her three times, I believe. There is a lot more to her. It's not dissimilar, frankly, from a lot of analyses of Hillary Clinton after she ran in 2016. I feel the way about Jeb.

I feel it about Jeb. Yeah. Sometimes people make it about. I'm going to make it about misogyny, and there is some for sure, but some of it is just the way that you're built. And I feel that way about Jeb sometimes. Listen, Kamala Harris is a smart woman. She's a terrible communicator. I would tell her that to her face. She very well may know in her heart what she wants to say. I know she has deeply held viewpoints on a number of issues, but we live in a day and age where your ability to command a sound bite is as important as,

like, the deepest policy knowledge. Like, we're not electing Paul Ryan's or like whatever's or, you know, Kemp's these days. We're electing people who break through. And I don't see her overcoming that. Who's come through and has been like, and you've been like, wow, they're good. They're better than I expected as like a guest on the view. Just as far as being able to hang and talk, like putting like policies aside, you know, just. Josh Shapiro, which is obvious answer, but like knows what he believes in, can articulate it, doesn't get when he gets pushed to the far left by certain co-hosts. He holds his ground and he's not apologetic. When he gets pulled to the right, maybe by me, he knows definitively what his position is and then he can banter on like i think sarah haines did just

like rapid fire like favorite taylor swift song like just random things but like you have to be able to do that shit in politics and he can do without blinking because he's like a real human how is our girl marge i've been trying to get her on this show and she she spurned me for you so i know i got to live vicariously through you yeah well how was she i'm fascinated i'm still unpacking it in my own heart and mind let's see what was it like off camera so i went in a talk to her beforehand in the green room. I don't like to be an asshole in politics, so you don't see me like name-calling people and that kind of thing, at least like not on air. I'll say it to their face if I'm going to. And I'd taken some digs at her that went beyond substantive digs. Like I made

fun of a coat she wore or something. So I went in, introduced myself and I was like, by the way, that was a low point of me. I want to like, you know, make sure you're welcome and we actually want to hear from you here. I found her charming. I found her normal, articulate. Like, at commercial breaks, she just kind of wanted to get to know everyone. I'm not in this, like, she's something different than what she is, but I found her, it was a reminder to me that people are multifaceted. Like, I'm not going to be able to unsee that she, you know, followed Parkland kids around and harass them. But I also can see that when she talks about, like, healthcare subsidies, I think it's because she genuinely cares about her constituents. And she genuinely is, like, angry that we're not trying to solve this problem and we're going to let people's health care. cost skyrocket. Genuine is the key word. It's just like, don't bullshit me. I laughed.

It's offensive at some level. So like, whatever. But she was on 60 minutes. And she's like, I thought there's no better example that she's just being herself than the fact that like she's looking at Leslie Stall. And she's like, it's your fault that the country is divided. And I, one of my two of my biggest disappointments with Trump is he's been too pro vaccine and too nice to Israel.

And I was just like, okay. All right. That's a point of view at least, you know, at least you're not. Faking it, like every senator, basically, in the Republican Party. I was, like, slightly starting to get worked over by her in that segment, and then my co-host, Sarah Haynes asked her about, like, appearing with Nick Fuentes, and she totally dodged it. And I was like, okay, back to reality, back to reality, Alyssa, this is who she is. What do you make of the mega crack up happening? We were talking for second of the Green Room.

We both are obsessed with the Candace feud. If you can go over to Bullock takes if they want, because I don't want to submit. object, everybody to this. I have a 35-minute solo monologue on like a four-minute clip of Tucker and Theo Vaughn talking about the Charlie Kirk assassination. Because I was like, this is really bad. Like, Theo Vaughn is the second biggest podcast in the country right now, according to Spotify last year.

And Tucker's on there being like, who knows? I can't trust the government. I'm like, he confessed. What are you talking about? He can pass. He's on tape. But, you know, to me, there's like that part of the crack up, which is like the fight over Charlie's legacy, which is gossipy and dishy and kind of fun.

But then I also feel like there's a real like substantive potential crack up happening. And when Marjorie talked about the difference between America First and MAGA, I thought that was a good way of like summarizing it. So anyway, just take that any way you want. So I don't know. We're going to attribute this to the fact that I'm about to have a baby. So I'm thinking a lot more like big picture. I honestly like delve into the weeds of what obnoxious thing Trump did that day, only to

the degree that I need to be able to talk about it in an informed way on TV. And otherwise for like my mental health and well-being, I'm much more consumed by like these bigger existential questions of like, who are we as Americans? Where are we going as a country? And I remind myself that like, yeah, three years a lot can happen. But like my child's not going to remember Donald Trump as president. You know what? My child. I know. I know. What's the saddest part about his win for me? I was like, she's going to remember him now. And she doesn't remember Obama probably. If she's second grade, no, no, yeah. But my son will probably know who Candace Owens is, who Nick Fuentes, who some of these people are.

And there are these characters and creations of the MAGA moment that in some ways I think are bigger than him and I think are going to outlive him. Yes, he's the most dominant force in elected politics in both of our lifetimes and probably our grandparents' lifetimes. I am horrified, freaked out, terrified in a darker and deeper way than I am by the fact that Trump is president for. a second time by what you're seeing on the super online incredibly influential right that just not anti-Semitism but like the deepest most in your face neo-nazism white nationalism the darkest of conspiracy theories are completely mainstreamed and when i'm not living in my like politics space i'm like a bravo reality tv like that's what i spend my time with i see people i follow there who were like huge followings, they love Candace Owens. They love some of these people.

I don't know that we're wrapping our heads around how ingrained this is. And then this sort of Fox shakeup with it where you had Hannity kind of pushing back. You had Erica Kirk on outnumbered, pushing back without naming Candace Owens. It honestly underscored that something like Fox that helped create some of these individuals is now far less powerful than they are on their own. They monsters if you will and they can't now walk it back and be like oh wow we let this get too bad too dangerous too risky

Wow you've fully gone into my space not like the old social media place like the Tim Miller like Worldview you are listening too much not to take credit for that but maybe take a break because I look at what JD's doing is the most telling part about this he won't distance himself from it

and he's got Tucker's kid on his staff and you know and Tucker's kid is a grown man so like you don't want to bring in family but like he's a grown man who's a key advisor to the vice president he's fair game yeah yeah absolutely and so the fact that jd who knows that who basically he recognizes that if he is going to win a primary he can't alienate those folks like that shows how big their power is oh yeah and so you know to me i like the two like elements that that make me the most i both concerned about it and also like kind of confident that this is a trajectory and this is the fight ahead is is that is that

is JD's behavior and the algorithms. I mean, and I don't know what the solution is to that with the big tech companies, but it's just like you don't, Hannity's not on my out. It's funny that Hannity is like the normal one now or whatever, but like Hannity isn't showing up. Yeah,

he's not showing up on my, you know, at Ford you page. The National Review people aren't, you know what I mean? Like whoever is representative of that, Nikki Haley isn't her son who's gone insane is, speaking of kids, you know what I mean?

Like the only people that folks are getting delivered are in the Candace Tucker kind of mold. And that's like extremely alarming. And we can't, we can never talk about the algorithm conversation without remembering that like America's adversaries have a hand in that. What's amplified, what they're putting money behind, what you're being served up to you. This is something, it's the Iranian playbook.

It's the Russian playbook. It's not always as clear cut the way our adversaries work is like, we want this person in office, we don't want this person. What they want are divisive figures who are going to tear America. apart from within, amplified, listen to, trusted, and beloved. And I think one of the really devastating things about the way the election went was there was this DOJ investigation into some of these, you know, very prominent MAGA influencers who were basically being paid through a shell company, maybe not knowing.

I want to be clear, they may have not known, but by foreign adversaries to promote certain propaganda. They're getting paid a lot of money, though. So much money. They knew it was something weird, you know, someone who's in the content game. Like, I'm not getting paid $25,000 per video. or something like I would ask some questions right but that that was as clear as we needed to know that that is an active space that America's adversaries are playing in and it just kind of

disappeared from the public consciousness and I don't think most people realize that like when you're being served whatever lunatic conspiracy theory Candace or someone might be serving up to you that day that it's not just how popular she is it's not just how many Americans actively choose to opt into that. It's an algorithm our adversaries have had their fingers on to get in front of us to tear us apart. So I'm interested because I would have thought it was a disagreement that we have, but maybe we'd not. But like, so is your, like, what if Glenn Yonkin or whoever, Nikki Haley or whoever represents that like more traditional part of the Republican Party, I called you and was like, do you think that there's a lane for me to run against J.D. or whoever would

represent the more conspiratorial mega lane like do you think that there's anything there did indiana give you any hope on that front or is this um i mean today i don't think there's a lane but i do think three years of what could be ahead could create one i'm still convinced that there's some very scary things happening in the country but i still think we're a center left center right country um i still think that you know educated voting blocks especially but but i wouldn't I wouldn't limit it to that. I think we'll want something different. I think there's a world that we could get past the midterms, and it won't be a question

of who was vying most for Trump's endorsement. It could actually be who needs to distance themselves to get elected. That's a possibility. It feels really distant right now, but it's possible. I agree. That's possible. But like, I think things are bad now. And it well.

I mean, like legit recession. I want to be careful on how I say this, because my POV is a Christian, is I still just like pray for the greatest success of America with the leaders that we have. I don't want bad to have a bad outcome for him or for anyone I disagree with. But listen, every president faces whether it's public health crises, national security crises, natural disasters, economic ones, things are going to happen in the next three years that require intentional, thoughtful adult leadership. And in even looking at the first term, he does not rise to the moment in those moments. And I don't think he has a team around him that's nearly as competent. Their ability

to handle them is the first term. So who knows? It could go a lot of directions. But it's also possible he leaves office. They put his face on Mount Rushmore. And it's J.D. versus Marco for, you know, the nomination. Are you surprised that he hasn't come for you yet? Trump, doesn't he feel like he deserves his own woman on the chair? Should that feels like something he didn't care about. I was like, do you mean prosecuting? No, I meant like, you know, the Jimmy Kimmel stuff. Like, you know, shouldn't Alyssa be replaced with Caroline and her beautiful lips? He talked about her beautiful lips yesterday.

Listen, the view's gotten some of the FEC scuttle butt and those kind of things. And I would just remind folks of this, two things. Our media's never been more democratized than it is right now. Like, you have the view and then you have the five. I don't see liberals out there being like, we need more just tar. Robes, get rid of Gutfeld. Like, it's a model of a show that just happens to work. There are days that I'm like, it would be nice to have someone a little more ideologically aligned here.

But it's the show. It's what our audience wants. And on top of having total dominance and cable news with Fox News, he's now got his Newsmax, Real American News, and all of these, like, podcasts. Republicans used to have a pretty legitimate claim to be like, we are so underrepresented in mainstream media. It's just not really the case anymore. Oh, opposite, maybe.

Yeah. It's never been a magazine seat, though, for what it's worth. This is the other thing people don't necessarily get is, like, you have to be able to do the political segments with strong personalities and viewpoints, but then you have to be able to book and interview Kim Kardashian or whoever it might be. And a lot of celebrities are not going to put themselves in that position if you have deeply polarizing voices. Network is just very different than cable. Glenn Close doesn't want to get the business from Sarah Huckabee Sanders. I guess she's the governor of Arkansas. I want to go back to your DoD hat really quick, because you're a spokesperson there for a little bit, excuse me, I guess, D-O-W.

Oh, yeah. Department of War. A couple of things. So, like, what's happening with the press, the credentialed press is crazy. I don't feel like it gets enough attention. You know, the department that covers the military, whatever you want to call it, has kicked out all the actual journalists and replaced them with, like, North Korean, like, adjut prop hacks. And not only are they doing like just basically PR for the admin. There's a story from Mother Jones.

I don't know if you saw this yesterday where Mother Jones was asking a question about the background of one of Texas advisors. And Jack Pesobiac, who is one of the few credentialed press that they have in there, like then started emailing this guy and bullying him and threatening him. And it's like, wait a minute. I thought Jack was in the press. Like he's doing PR like Roger Stone type work on behalf of this. department on behalf of the secretary and that's crazy what's happening it's so wild and it is it is stunning

that it hasn't been a bigger story than it is like keep in mind there are two people on the planet who can launch military operations on behalf of the u.s. government pete heggseth of fox and friends weekend fame and the president of the united states i could argue there's no building in the world more important to cover with just vigor with accountability with transparency and with real journalistic like rigor than the White House and the Department of Defense. And the fact that we're basically applauding that we have people who are there as cheerleaders for the administration over like actual journalists, it goes against so much of what you and I would have believed in as like old school Republicans. But I have to commend there have been a handful of folks who just like

keep trolling them and being like, when are you going to break some news? Because meanwhile, you have reporters like Dan Lamath at the Washington Post, Jennifer Griffin at Fox News. They're not even physically in the building, and they're breaking news, they're still working sources, and they're still giving the public what we need to know about what's happening at DoD. Natasha Bertrand's great at CNN. I don't know. I think that there's this feeling of like sort of victimhood among this era of Republicans of like, we're underrepresented, we need our people, we need X, Y, and C. And I'm like, you've got it all, but we didn't want it so that we could go be puppets for like the government that's in power for the state. That's not, that's never been the goal. It's weird. It's

it's honestly extremely jarring to see yeah what um what's your take on what's happened in the caribbean all right so i've got to take that apparently piss some folks off but i'll tell you okay great is republican is neocconnoisse about to come back out and she's like let's let's regime change in venezuela so i'm i'm totally with like the rannpaws of the world on these drugboat interdictions i don't think there's a legal justification i think the facts do not pan out that this is some sort of immediate threat to the United States. There's questions over if these drugs were even coming here. We know the bulk of fentanyl is not coming from Venezuela. And by the way, to Trump's credit, he largely secured the border. Even if they get it here,

it's going to get interdicted on the ground of the United States. I do actually think that this, this tanker interdiction, I think, is both legal. And I think it does make some sense. This was a boat that had previously been sanctioned because it was trafficking oil between Iran. There's others that have with the Russian government. I think that's in the purview of what we can do in that region. What I'm just super curious about is like in the first term, we had this big diplomatic push to get Maduro out. It was basically Pence, Bolton, and Pompeo led. I think anyone left, right, and center can agree Maduro's a dictator. He's savaged a country that was, you know, once one of the most prosperous in the region. And the world would be better if he's gone, but you don't have to support

regime change. But it was very diplomatic led. We basically tried to get. every nation in the Western Hemisphere to support the opposition later, who was then Juan Guaido, we tried to get his credentials yanked at the UN, but no one ever talked about the idea of a military solution. I'm fascinated that in this like America first moment, no new wars, ending wars all over the world, that this is where the focus is gone. I still remain bullish that there's no way Trump puts boots on the ground in the Western Hemisphere, other than maybe like at the southern Porter. Yeah, right.

But I'm, I'm actually have a big question mark over what the big end game here is. It may be a posturing against Russia. There's probably an oil and rare earth minerals component, but I, I'm not clear. Usually I have a pretty good read on what he's doing, and I'm not sure. What do you think? Me neither. Yeah, I'm curious. I don't think he knows.

I don't think he knows what he's doing. I think that this is Rubio and Miller, Stephen Miller pushed for. I feel like in some ways, kind of like the Iran strike, where it's like Trump is. is like, I'm for it as long as it's good, as long as it's going well, as long as I can just say, like, we're killing bad guys, like, I'm for it. So I agree with you. I think he's to be hesitant to actually, you know, advance it much beyond what's happening now.

But, I mean, what's happening now is crazy. You do gloss over it a little bit, but you were in there. Just give you a little perspective, like, and you were in there in the first Trump term, which is meaningful, but, like, the difference between now and then was, like, the fact that, like, they don't seem to care at all about legal authority for stuff. I mean, when you were there working for Esper, like, the process, I have to imagine, was, like, pretty rigorous as far as, like, making sure there was, like, you know, legal way in on what we were doing.

Yeah, I think that an under-told story of first term versus second is just how fundamentally different it is at every agency and, like, the White House's vantage point to the agencies. And, I mean, the kind of cliche example everyone gives is, like, you wouldn't even have a Robert Mueller in term two. You wouldn't have a special counsel. Like, DOJ would never hire that person. They'd never appoint that person. But it kind of does go to every single agency.

Definitely at DOD. I mean, I remember a number of directions or ideas that came from the White House that then there would be pushback from the Joint Chiefs, from the Secretary of Defense. And it'd be a dialogue the way that it's supposed to be. That's exactly how it should happen. And I wonder how much that happens now. And I wonder about some of the caliber of advisors. Like, listen, we know Rubio. Ruby is a very, very savvy and smart person.

He's got an outsized portfolio. but I also look at things with him from the vantage point if he clearly has presidential ambitions and how does he navigate that? I don't think he's necessarily some kind of backstop against some of the more dangerous instincts. I think it's more how do I stay aligned and build my own sort of accomplishments for when I eventually run for office. Yeah. I mean, you don't have a Mueller, but you don't even have like, like, Don McGahn. I'm not a huge John McGahn fan myself. Like the White House councils, you know, Cipollone, the first charge. I'm like, it seemed to me like we're at least providing legal guidance.

It was like you cannot do. Take it or leave it. Yeah, telling them that you can't do certain things. It's not clear to me there's any legal guidance telling them not to do anything. Same. And I think that there's also this sort of baked in philosophy of let the courts oppose it. Like basically, let's do what we want. If the courts are going to step in, allow it.

We all know the courts take time. They actually, I think, in many ways, have been, like, a pretty successful backstop against some of the less than legal decisions. But I think they're very, very big. And it's a strategic decision to push the power of the executive and let the courts kind of decide what they can do. Do you talk to, like, Esper, at all or any of the folks from her? Esper, I keep up with. What's his view on things? I should get him on. Tell him to come on the pot.

You actually should get him on. He does do a ton of media, although he does some. but I think that it's going about as we all expected. I don't want to speak for him, but I think it's going about as we all expected. But listen, I'll say this, like, I'm always going to be in the business of trying to call balls and strikes to the degree that I can. Like, I supported the Iran strikes. I don't think that they were definitive.

I don't think they ended the nuclear threat. But like, I'm going to look for the, yeah, I'm going to look for the moments. I think the ceasefire as, you know, tenuous as it may be. I think that was largely a good thing. So, like, find those bright moments. Find your glass half full moments. Here's one, but last thing I just want to ask you about given your experience. Here's, I'm sorry, I'm not going to end on a glass half full moment.

This wouldn't be the Bollard podcast if we ended on that. It is striking how there are not Alyssa's really this time. And I guess your departure came with the end of the first term. But even then throughout, like, there were various people. And I do think it shows that we're at, like, at a different time. Like, everybody that signed. up for this new what they were getting into it doesn't seem like there are any alas and i mean this in the sense of like when we talked for for my book and we talked about you going in it like you

had reservations not going in at all right and like we're weighing like this question of like like you know i have my concerns about trump but is that outweighed by you know public service and doing that you can't it doesn't feel like any of the people in this time had those reservations and i don't think we're going to be seeing people like doing principal departures i mean Maybe that's me being pessimistic, though. I don't know. It feels like you'd be the person people would call if they were thinking about doing it. So what do you think?

Phone hasn't been ringing. I generally agree right now. But I think that I think a couple of things. I think the closer to the midterms we get and looking like the balance of power is going to change in Congress, I think you'll see some higher level departures, probably cabinet level, which will do the I served, you know, two years, blah, blah, I'm doing other things. But they want to avoid congressional oversight. They've gotten the benefit of a whole year of not. having to do anything other than kind of the pro forma showing up.

I think you'll see that. They're not going to trash him on the way out. No, I don't think that, but I think we're still very early in. I think there are some parallels to 2017 and sort of that first iteration of characters that there are to now. And I think that I could see a world. I think this is much more staffed with loyalists. I think it's people who are truly bought into the agenda who probably don't have any

significant doubts about him. I think that's largely what he's surrounded by. but I do think if his popularity continues to wane the way that it is, that could change in two years. I don't know if it will. I don't know that it's going to necessarily come from a massive place of principles so much as like the political wins are shifting, but that could happen. Yeah, I hope so. I don't know. I've gone from a place where, I don't know, a couple years ago, I would have said that I did used to say this.

It's something on the lines of like, eventually everyone is going to agree with me, so you might as well agree now. That's what was the case I used to make to, like, fellow Republicans. And I don't, they feel that way anymore. I think that there's, I think that the folks that are in this time are pretty much going to be dead enders. So, and I think that's a, that is a notable change. I don't, do you think, do you have a better, a more optimistic view? I agree. I actually agree with your earlier assessment, but I think it's at like a decade from now.

So, like, I think it's when your daughter's getting ready for college. I still believe. When I'm a grandfather. Yeah, exactly. I still believe that. And I won't be letting those folks off the hook. I'll just let you know. You have the full dispensation for me, Alyssa, we've been around the bend.

But if you quit in 27, I'm sorry. And we're in the old folks home together. I'm not sitting next to you in the cafeteria. Okay, that's. I think that there are some things that are so sweeping in the way that they can be damaging to the long term of the country that I think the history books will remember it very differently. But I'm talking a decade out. A lot of the world looks more fondly on George Bush now than they did, you know, 10 years ago.

I think it's going to be very different with Donald Trump. And I would point to USAID, giving up our soft power on the world stage, our betrayal of our own fellow Americans through cutting cancer research, all of these health changes that we're seeing. We're going to bear the consequences of that for years to come. I interviewed Bill Gates about it. And we had him on the view. And he was painting a dire warning about what we've done to public health in this country. things like that, I think, are going to mar the way this period's remembered. And then, of course, they'll just anti-democratic actions.

I do think there's an appetite for it. I think we're in a populist moment and people, more Americans are kind of okay with it than are deeply opposed to it right now. But I still think the arc of history is long and it's bending toward everyone being like, well, that was fucking crazy. God willing, your lips to God's ears. Alyssa Farah Griffin, thank you. Let's not do a year and a half next time. What's going to get soon? Good luck with that baby

And keep us posted Post some pictures On Instagram, all right? We'll do. Appreciate it. Everybody else will be back here Monday with Bill Crystal. See you all then.

Peace. I'm going back to Indiana Back to where I started from Going back to Indiana Indiana, here I go. I spin my wings of greener pastures. I'm going to find what I was after. I've got the flu that that is why I see.

I just want to do my thing, yeah. I'm going back to Indiana. Indiana, here I come. Yeah. I'm going back to Indiana. That's where my baby's from. Okay, Tito, you got it. The Borg podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.