The Bulwark Podcast - Amanda Carpenter, Sarah Longwell, & Sam Stein: Trump Gives His Family a Free Pass to Crime

Episode Date: May 21, 2026

From the state where Trump claims he’d win if Jesus counted the votes, Sarah and Sam joined Tim on live stage in San Diego to debate who is the most cucked Republican and whether Bill Cassidy should get credit for his late-in-the-game YOLO opposition to Trump. Also, Jeff Bezos has Tim rethinking his opposition to socialism, and how could Bibi and Trump have had such an absurd plan for a new Iranian president? At the top of the pod, Amanda Carpenter runs down the thug fund (don’t call it a slush fund) and Trump’s effort to get permanent immunity from any tax liability for himself and his family. Plus, POTUS’s revenge tour may backfire, and the administration may try using Fulton County as a test case for taking over vote counting in Democratic counties. Amanda Carpenter, Sarah Longwell, and Sam Stein join Tim Miller.show notes: Jon on how Trump’s global health cuts are undermining the response to the Ebola outbreak Lauren on how the Georgia governor’s race may be the most important one in the country And we still have a few tickets left for TONIGHT at Bulwark Live: LA at 7pm. Our friends Jane Coaston, Jon Favreau, Erin Ryan from Crooked Media, The Ringer’s Van Lathan and progressive commentator Brian Tyler Cohen will join Sarah, Tim and Sam on stage. Grab your seats at TheBulwark.com/Events

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I'm your host Tim Miller. We have a quasi double header for you today in segment two. It is some of the live show in San Diego last night. I was on stage with my bulwark colleague, Sam Stein and Sarah Longwell, and we talked about the latest in Iran, how we are going to do an Argo-style plot to put Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in charge of the country. We also discussed how Bill Cassidy's starting to sound like a bulwark contributor all the sudden. It's a good little discussion. So stick around for that in segment two. But first, formerly at the Bullwork, she's now a writer and editor at Protect Democracy.org. They got a substack called If You Can Keep It, it is all caps Amanda Carpenter. What's up, girl? Hey, doing pretty well. How much you?

I'm doing good. Thank you for doing this, you know? The people want some actual podcasting every day. You know, they want some really deep thoughts from observers of our democratic condition. And so I appreciate that you're offering that because it's basically just you today. All right. I'm just going to be throwing up softballs to you. All right. Let's go. Let's do it.

I want to start by talking about what you are calling on social media, the Riot Reward Program. Everybody's just bouncing around different names. We're going to land on one. You know, I was trying to call it reparations for whites. JV.L. had a name in his triad yesterday. Run us through the timeline of how we got here because I do think that we've had some kind of developments over the last few days on it. Well, first, I do appreciate all the people brandstorming good names for this because if I hear people keep calling it the settlement or the slush fund, I'm going to scream.

Right. Like there's lots of good things you could call it. You can do riot rewards. I was kind of twying around with henchmen bailout, but I have landed on thug fund. I think thug fund really gets it the idea that. That's who is going to be getting these grants if they do come to fruition. But aside from the branding, which actually is important, like, let's please call something that accurately describes it because it's absolutely not a settlement.

One of the ways that you have to think about how this came about, which, you know, isn't important to the discussion that we're going to have about why it's so unpopular and wrong. But the reason this came about, if you even want to call it a reason, is that Donald Trump's tax returns were leaked, right? that was bad. Lots of people's tax returns were leaked. Like there's a whole like pro-publica investigation. We remember that. But the conclusion that Trump and the Department of Justice have come to is that because that bad thing happened in which there is recourse in which the leaker was prosecuted is facing the consequences of that behavior, they've decided I want two things. Which you don't like, this isn't the thing that you get to make a deal with the DOJ over this about like what kind of.

reward that you want. We want two things. We want a free pass for all future tax criming forever and ever, apparently, and the $1.7 billion thug fund to give money to all my henchmen and cronies. None of these things are related. Like, can we just pause on that for a second? Tax returns being leaked does not mean Donald Trump gets $1.7 billion to throw around as Trump bucks for his friends. Like that, I feel like the news cycle didn't really pause on that enough. And Todd Blanche wasn't, you know, he was on Capitol Hill the other day. That connection, that tenuous, and not even a tenuous connection, was never explored. But then if you want to rewind back just a little bit further, people are kind of surprised that this idea of J-Sex reparations

came out of the blue. No, it didn't. It absolutely did not. This has been a part of the whole pardon discussion they had since Donald Trump was campaigning for the 2020 election. This has always been on the table. And people who brought it up, you know, the Republican allies that he had some places like the Hill would dismiss it just like they thought the pardons were crazy. Like, oh, that's never going to happen. Ed Martin, Eagle Ed Martin, was running around talking about reparations on podcasts with Benny Johnson, you know, how the J6 rioters deserve justice. And it's like, oh, that's crazy talk. Oh, well, here we are. Here we are. One point. $7 billion later.

And I do have optimism. I mean, this is so politically toxic that I do think it can and will be stopped. But it's kind of funny. If you look at the people on the hill who want to stop it, even people like Representative Fertz Patrick, who came out against it very strongly, which I was delighted to see his interviews,

well, we have to kind of track down where this pool of money came from and where the appropriations are because they have no idea, no idea. And so that's just, another wrinkle in this whole crazy subject. But I've talked enough. One more thing, I just, I thought that was important that I saw, I want to shout out Congressman Mike Levin out here in California, actually, who was posting about this.

When you think about the timeline is this, like stupid frivolous lawsuit that the president was filing against his own government. For $10 billion. The IRS did actually go through the process that you would go through in this sort of case, right? Like, they wrote a memo, laying out the defenses about why they shouldn't have to pay out the suit. They listed that Trump filed too late. Trump's own lawyer was in court when the leaker pled guilty in October 23, more than two years before Trump sued, you know, so like there was legal justice for this already, like before the suit even started. The Justice Department themselves never actually showed up to courts, never argued the other side. And this is like kind

of crazy, like FACTA, right? You're like talking about this. It's like, there's, two parts of Trump's government arguing against each other. But like, that's how it would work, right? In an actual, if there was Trump was suing the IRS, like the Justice Department then would give their argument on the other side, they never did that. The judge got suspicious and ordered both sides to explain, like, whether they were opposing each other or just colluding

and asked for a brief on that from both sides. And the day before it was due was when the Justice, Department announced the thug fund, right? Like, I think that that is also, like, important, like, context of how this happened, right? Like, it was all, and we all know that it was WWE, like, K-Fabe fake the whole time, that it's like, you know, they made it as blatant as possible that this was all fake, all pretext for getting money to hand out to the J-Sexers and maybe some others. Yeah, and any other lawsuit, you're not allowed to sue yourself.

I mean, that's not a thing. Like, I, Amanda Carpenter, are going to take Amanda Carpenter court for damages from a company. It's not a thing. That's essentially what Donald Trump is doing here. But another thing I want to pause on, the idea that Donald Trump was harmed. I'm not saying leaking his tax returns were great or that should have been done or I'm having any defense of what happened in that scenario. But he is arguably the single most powerful man on the earth. what harm has he suffered?

Legitably, like what business is he not doing? What money is he not making? And what in any way is there any harm that's being inflicted on him as he enjoys the greatest political position in the world? I don't understand. The thing that happened this morning, this is from Punch Bull. As you mentioned, Brian Fitzpatrick on the Hill, sent a strongly worded letter to Todd Blanche.

We'll see where that goes. There's been some other pushback, even from Republican senators. Bill Cassidy. We talk about this in segment B a little bit. So the White House, I guess, felt like they needed to at least offer some explanation to the Hill. They sent a one-pager over there about the fund.

It says that the fund will have no partisan restriction. But then my favorite part is like is a little bribed. Any Republican senators who are feeling on the fence about this? It does say that any senators whose records were secretly subpoenaed by the Biden DOJ, they're also eligible to apply. So there you go. Here's a little, it was kind of wet in the beak of Republican senators

who feel like they might have been harmed. Yeah, I don't know if you remember, but during the funding fight, it wasn't last year. There was a provision to allow members whose phone records were subpoenaed in the Arctic Frost investigation to get up to, I think,

$500,000 payout from the government. So this is kind of refreshing that and saying, okay, we're going to make this very cool and legal now. And now there's no cap on the amount. So why not, you know, I think there was nine Republican senators that were possibly eligible for that. It was like Lindsey Graham, surprise. But yeah, so maybe they can just get that now.

And it was so controversial. It was struck out of the bill. Yeah, right. But now, hey, all cool and legal. It was actually the House Oversight Dems. Another shout out to Robert Garcia and Suhas Super Money. And I caught that, actually. It was like really like ducked into a bill.

And then that became this thing and they took it out. And now they're going back for a second bite at that apple. You mentioned also the other thing I want to focus on, because I don't think I've gotten to it on the pod, is the other element of this settlement, so-called settlement, was in addition to the thug fund, was Trump and his family becoming immune forever from tax crimes. I don't really think that's how things work in the country where I know that's,

I guess, how it worked for Jeffrey Epstein. And that was kind of part of the deal that he got with Alex Acosta, where he was immune for a bunch of other crimes. But generally speaking, you know, in America, you know, if you commit a crime, no matter whether you're the president, a part of the president's family or one of the president's friends, like you still, you know, can be prosecuted for that crime, just like a regular person. But they're, they're trying to immune themselves. The IRS is, quote, forever barred and precluded from pursuing, quote, examinations of Trump. or related or affiliated individuals or their trusts or their businesses. Truly insane. So if you try to follow a through line,

there is no connection between the remedies that he's asking for and the original harm. So what is this really about? What I think this deal is really about is protecting his position in power, not only through the midterms and the 28 election, whatever he decides to do, but post-presidency as well. Why else would you be asking for permanent legal immunity, not only for all the crimes you committed in the White House with the Supreme Court so thoughtfully gave him, but for any kind of tax liability for all your businesses and family? To me, that's what this is really about. And it's truly crazy.

You know, you hate to do the counterfactuals, but like when there was all the question of the Clinton crime family, you know, like had Bill Clinton in there said, like, you know what? What my DOJ has decided is that me and Hillary can do whatever we want in perpetuity and that no. and that the IRS could never investigate us again. And, like, that's what they're trying to do. It's, like, it's totally insane. You called it, I think, autocratic entrepreneurship. And, like, that is, it is important to discuss, like, this element of it because it's tied to, like, the Trump family corruption that he is trying to ensure can perpetuate

forever, like, no matter what happens. Like, they can do it while they're in power right now. They're making a lot of money. But then in the future, it's like, they can continue. to do whatever kind of corrupt deals they want without any concern. Yeah, this idea of Trump as an autocratic entrepreneur and his plans post-presidency, like, listen, it's a question. Will he stay or will he go?

His plans for the ballroom essentially turning, it's really a bunker. Like, can we be real? I don't know if you've seen the videos of him lately where he's standing outside promising how great it's going to be and the gift that he's going to give future presidents. And oh, by the way, we're going to have a drone empire on top of the White House.

So we're not having a ballroom. We're having a drone empire that is essentially going to, what, turn the White House into some kind of military base where he's going to have drones flying around to protect him? I mean, maybe there's a chance that he's really freaked out

about the wars he's starting and retribution that might be coming for him. There have been assassination attempts on him several times, not only from domestic actors, but foreign. So who knows what's actually going through his head. But regardless of what he's thinking, what he is doing is insulating himself in so many ways inside the White House as a bunker that, again, I'm glad that there's Senate

opposition to the ballroom and the funding for it. But how does he have the funding now? I mean, he's sitting there literally as like there's jack hammers and like stuff being thrown around. Like the White House is a giant construction pit. And they're like, maybe we'll stop the funding for it. Well, maybe you ought to do something now. That said, you look at the bunker, you look at the immunity that he's pursuing on all angles, you look at the things that he's setting himself up for, like the Board of Peace in which he's the forever trahrman, the untolds amount of corruption that we still fail to understand, explain, and confront adequately. He's setting himself and his family up to be shielded for decades if we don't do something about it now.

to stop it while he's still in office. The other line that you had talking about all this types of corruption that I think sort of unites everything is this question of audit the White House. And I think that is pretty good because, I mean, as you mentioned about the ballroom of funding, like Bill Cassidy was saying,

the Hill hasn't even seen, they haven't provided anything. Like, what are the plans? You know, what are the specs for this? And I think that, you know, I've had Robert Garcia and Sue Hass on, like, what should the Democrats do next year? And I think something that kind of unites everything is audit the White House and audit the Trump family. Yeah, audit the White House because they, I mean, we know there's untold amounts of corruption going on.

And, you know, Audit the Fed, I think was actually a politically powerful issue for Republican primaries back in the day. Audit the White House should be that much more powerful because Donald Trump is so clearly trying to evade that accountability right now with this demand for protection from any audits in the future. You posted about your optimism on this. on some of the things we're sitting on the hill. And you've alluded to a little bit. I'm going to read your skeet. I'm not trying to blow smoke up anyone's behind. Good, because we don't do that on the podcast.

But there is some decent opposition to Trump happening on the Hill, no save act, ballroom, funding plummeting, Iran war vote, not firing the parliamentarian, growing opposition to the henchman bailout. Tom Tillis this morning called that thug fund tyranny and stupid on stilts. So at some level, his revenge tour is potentially causing some limitations on, you know, his autocratic aspirations. Yeah, I have no illusions that the Republicans on their own would do anything to confront or

stop Trump from pursuing these items. But if it becomes so politically toxic and the Democrats, the media, voters, don't allow them to escape the issue, I actually think there's a chance. I mean, there's too much coming down upon them. Donald Trump's polling is in the basement right now. They all know this. And I do think the back-to-back endorsement of Ken Paxton over John Cornyn and then the thug-fund details coming out, that had a weird back-to-back dynamic that I do think caused more anger on the hill than usual. I think they thought he was going to stay out of the Texas race, but then endorsing Ken Paxton and sending a member potentially to the Senate.

So it was so clearly ethically flawed over someone who has been there. How long has John Cornyn been there? 18 years. I think a number of members took more personally in a way that, you know, the defeat of like a Tom Tellis or Bill Cassidy didn't have. Yeah, I think it was a mistake. Paxton was going to win. Like a poll came out yesterday or two days.

ago that was in the field before the Trump endorsement. And Paxton was up eight. Like, Paxton was going to win. Trump did not have to do this. And he was going to get what the result he wanted anyway. This is, again, the megalomania and the narcissism and how that can backfire sometimes. It's like he wanted his endorsement record to continue to be 100%. I think is the reason why he did this. I think he's created potentially a wildcard in Cornyn himself, adding him to Tillis and Cassidy and Murkowski and Collins and McConnell at various different times, people that could oppose him, but maybe even some others who were just pissed about the corn treatment. Yeah, I think there's a potential for this group of disaffected Republican senators

just actually do something on the way out. And let's put Tom Massey in that category, right? I mean, in his concession speech, he essentially said, I have seven more months left. Now, you can like Tom Massey or hate him, but he's got some fight in him. And he's the reason the Epstein files got released ultimately. But I don't know. I think the Massey defeat is so interesting because, you know, we've gone through this where the media keeps wanting to, like, put this fight between MAGA and the moderates or MAGA and never Trump.

That's, like, that was never quite it. And Tom Massey's law shows that because he was trying to chart out this America First course, right, where he was with Trump on everything, did a lot of, like, kind of nasty stuff, but broke with Trump on two issues, Epstein and the Iran War. You could put MTG in that category, probably Lauren Boulbert. And they were dismissed as treasonous. Massey's race became the most expensive House primary in history because they just reining down dollars on him in support of this, you know, just MAGA kind of stooge candidate

who says nothing but I'm with Trump, I'm with Trump, I'm with Trump. And the idea that there's any kind of principal difference between Trump is just a farce. He doesn't want anyone except for lackeys and people like Ken Paxton who are so ethically flawed and will do anything for him. Like, that's the ideal candidate. That's always been what he wanted. I think this sort of proves that the America first tightrope that people were trying to walk is a failure. And you just have to oppose them.

And that's what I'm hoping Massey will do on a couple key issues on his way out. All right. I want to close with just to protect democracy. I mean, all of this is in the protect democracy habit, but particularly you know, in the narrow conversation about voting. We had Justin Jones on the pot yesterday and talked a lot about the gutting of VRA. And it's really pretty bleak, the state of Democratic affairs and Tennessee and other places in the deep south. And I do think that that move reopened the possibility that Republicans could take the House,

though I think it's still a long shot. What is your kind of updated view on the midterms? and concerns around elections. Most important thing on my mind right now is the wipeout of any remaining upstanding Republican candidates in Georgia and the implications that may have for 2028. Brad Raffensberger, which is a name

that I think most listeners to this podcast would recognize, he was running for governor, got defeated by an election denier named Bert Jones. Raffinsberger only got 15 points in the Republican primary. It looks like I was reading Laura Egan's wonderful reporting, about the potential governor's race shaping up. It could be a case where you have Bert Jones running against Keisha Lance Bottoms.

I don't know how that one's going to shake out. And if we lose Georgia to election deniers, that opens up in a huge can of worms. And if you look at the intense focus that the Trump White House, particularly with the Department of Justice, has had on Fulton County, the fight over Fulton County has not ended.

You know, they had the FBI raid, we get the ballot boxes. They're fighting constantly even over poll workers when it came to election day today. And I think they, Fulton County is a test model for what they want to do. They want to manufacture fraud allegations so that they can take over Democratic counties when it comes to election day. You could repeat that in other states. And I think Fulton County is particularly importance because if you remember, that's where Donald Trump got arrested. The mugshot that he post everywhere now, including on the Department of Justice, came from that area of the country. And so I think we just really got to be on our toes educating everyone about the threats that are

coming, raising the standard for people like judges who may be presented with really problematic search warrants and things like that to get information that the Department of Justice shouldn't have, the continued fight that they are waging to get voter data. from all 50 states so that they can handpick people to remove from the roles. Those are the things that I'm really focused on right now, as well as a number of my colleagues at Protect Democracy and an entire pro-democracy coalition. All right.

Anything else on your mind or anything people should be doing, you know, who are out there trying to wonder how to engage on this stuff? Just staying on it. I mean, honestly, it's going to be one of these races where it could come down to election boards and poll watchers and things like that. So just stay engaged. But the most important thing is to be talking about these issues so that Republicans who are in positions of influence cannot escape them.

Right. Because if they can make this go away, everybody's going to go away from Memorial Weekend. The heat needs to stay on things like the Thug Fund and the ballroom through a weekend because they're all pretending this is going to blow over. It's going to go away. Maybe we'll just get a billion dollars and we'll get an appropriation later. it'll be fine. It cannot be fine. You've got to keep the heat on them all through my royalty weekend, all through summer, all through the fall. Appreciate you as always. Amanda, everybody go check out their work at protectdemocracy.org. I'm sure you'll be back again soon.

And everyone else stick around for me, Sarah and Sam Stein, live in San Diego. Enjoy it. I'm delighted to be here with Sam and Sarah. I don't know if we've had a three-way together on the podcast. I guess not. All right. I asked Sam in the dressing room, I was like, did you think there'd be this much gay content at your new news job? It's constant. A lot of gay talk. Never-hended to gay content. Lot of gay talk. All right. I want to start by talking about we're kind of in a war with Iran, I guess, still, maybe-ish a little bit. We're going to do a little, yeah, it doesn't seem to be going that well. There was a pretty shocking story from the New York Times.

that I want to read a little bit to you all because it's a doozy. When we went into the war, we did have a plan, actually. You know, we had a plan, like it turned out, for a Delci Rodriguez-type figure to take over a run. That's what Bebe and Trump's plan was. The person was quite surprising, though, who they had in mind, a Mahmoud Ahmadine Shah. So for those of you who were around, you know, before 2016,

He didn't really love your people, Sam, Akamad. I don't think he liked ours that much either. No, not a big fan of ours. The audacious plan, according to the New York Times, was developed by the Israelis. Mr. Akhmuddinajad had been consulted about this, but quickly went awry when he was injured on the war's first day by an Israeli strike at his home in Tehran. It feels like a little mistake to kind of bomb the house of the person that you were trying to make the new leader.

He was there on house arrest. He survived the strike. He's injured, but he became disillusioned with the regime change plan. And he's not been seen publicly since then. His current whereabouts and condition are unknown. Feels like a miss, Sam.

I don't know. Well, first of all, I feel like this fully dispels this notion that the Jews are orchestrating everything, because that's the worst plan. I've ever heard. I mean, if you think about it, I'm embarrassed that Jews came up with this plan. I just step back and think about it.

The idea here was we were going to bomb his complex with such precision that he would escape, unscathed, and be totally fine with the fact that we nearly killed him with the bomb. and then go out somewhere and get a big popular movement behind him and then that would win the war. I mean, I wish I could be in the room where people were talking this through and no one was asking follow-up questions

like, how does this work? Like, what step two? Are people going to follow this guy? Do we like this guy? Is this our guy? Yeah, it feels like you were missing the bigger point here. No, I think that's the point. The bigger point is,

Madinajad? I mean, that's a point. That's who they thought that's a point. That's a point. That's a point. The Jews thought, I forget, what does he think about the Holocaust? Oh, that it didn't happen. I don't know why I'm yelling at you.

It's not your fault. Do this. This is how anti-Semitism happens. I'm not responsible for this. That is a good point and I think that's a very valid point. But I think even getting to that point, someone had to be in a room being like, okay, look, I've been workshopping this all weekend.

I've run through all the ideas and this. ideas and this is the best one we've got. We're going to bomb his complex and he's just going to walk out and he's going to be the new regime. Do we have an option B? I want to know what the literally anything. I guess we didn't have one. Wait, hold on. I got to go back to the idea of Ahmadinejad as the person, not just the bombing him. This is a guy. Okay, so the whole theory rested on the idea that there would be a popular uprising in Iran. Do we remember what Ahmadinejad did to people who rose up in Iran? Yeah, it wasn't great.

He stoned them to death. Yeah. Who's going to popular uprise for Akh Majinajad? I have a thought on that, Sarah. Maybe Donald Trump and Beebe didn't actually care about the well-being of the Iranian people. And that that was... No, I think you're wrong. I can't imagine.

That was maybe a front for their broader idea. Anyway, they're back to the drawing board. And here's where we're at now. Trump and Beebe had a conversation this week. BB's very upset, according to his stographer at Axios. His hair was on fire over this.

Trump said to Axis, if BB will do whatever I want him to do and said that the call was fine. The current plan now is for a 30-day letter of intent. That's nice. The U.S. and Iran would sign it, and then we'd have a 30-day period

of negotiations on issues like Iran's nuclear program in the opening of the Strait of Hormuz, which kind of sounds like where we're currently at. So I'm not sure what is the letter going to do exactly. This is for 30 days, not two weeks. But we are in a ceasefire, right? Technically.

So this is just a 30-day extension. And how is this different, the letter of intent, different from the memorandum of understanding the error? Like, they're just using a the the thesaurus. Right? That's what they're doing. They're just using different words. It's like the Operation Sledgehammer.

We're going to delay Operation Sledgehammer. For Project Freedom. It's just, who's coming up with this stuff? Pete Hegsseth. And it's so weird that it's not well thought out. He's like, I'm going to do a kegstand, and then we're going to bomb Medinajad. It does feel like a fundamental problem at the beginning was making a weekend talk show co-host, the Secretary of Defense. I don't know.

Before that, it was taking a game show host. and making him the present of the United States. I remember, do you, do you remember where you were when you found out it was going to be Hags South? Because I do. I remember. I was in a very dark place. Like, we're all kind of in a dark place now, but I was in an acutely dark place.

Like literally? No, it was dark. It was night. Like a movie theater? No, I was, you know, thinking about medication, self-medication, my life choices, self-hawn, you know. And I was driving to go. meet somebody for dinner, and I was doing what you're not supposed to do, but in New Orleans, the roads are so bad that, like, you can't really go more than, like, 18 miles an hour. So,

oftentimes I am tweeting and driving. This is probably going to come back to haunt me if I ever get into an accident that I just said that on the podcast, but whatever. And I was, like, scrolling Twitter while driving down for Ed Street, and the text came in, and I was like, oh, my God. And I went, and I was about to go to dinner, and my dinner mate had not, checked their phone and I was like I got one for you Pete Hegseth that's going to be the Secretary of Defense and they're like no let me see your phone

I was like it's fucking real I get to be the bearer of the news and that's where we're on so even in that moment of levity hold on were you more shocked by that because I remember feeling really shocked by that but then I felt like almost paralyzed when I heard Cash Mattel I was just like that cannot be

that cannot be no that can't be yeah the cash retail and was worried for some reason I just I got into that place with the Hankseth thing, where I got the uncontrollable laughter. It was just kind of like, what can you do in this moment, except just really laugh at this is the state of affairs. And so I think it was kind of predictable that this is where we'd end up. The one other Iran news, I think it was there on Israel news, it's kind of interesting that's

related to your people, Sam, was Trump's comments today. I don't know if you saw this. he was doing a little press conference outside the plane. We said, I'm right now at 99% approval in Israel. I could run for prime minister. So maybe after I do this, I'll go to Israel and run for prime minister. Why wait? Why is everybody cheering?

Why wait? I think they want him out of our country. We want him to go be prime minister of Israel. He's so much more popular there, right? I mean, he wouldn't have all these annoying reporters, the people Sam Stein on Morning Joe, making fun of him. You know, he would have, you'd go to a place where he's appreciated. Yeah, and he can do a lot of good there.

Like, it would become the Trump Western Wall, you know. Rebranding opportunities are abundant. I mean, there has been a lot of damage from all the wars. So you're doing a lot of rebuilding? Yeah. It's a triumphant arch. How was the Gaza Reconstruction project going by the way? He could oversee.

Not great for the, you know, people of Palestine, obviously, but it's not going that well for them anyway. I don't, not that funny. It's a little dark. I have so many jokes about Trump running Israel, but I can't tell any of them because they're really bad. Was one of them related to cars for kids or no? No, not that bad. Jesus. No, I was just thinking, like, I don't know, Israel's the one making our foreign policy decisions now, so why would it be better having Trump over there? Anyway, Trump's off to Israel, hopefully.

Any other Iran thoughts before I move on to something that has had my dander up on the plane here? I just don't think it's going well. Me neither. Do you see a path out? What's like the best case scenario for you at this point, Sam? We've talked about this. There's really not one, right? Like, the status quo just continues? Is that, like, the most likely scenario? Probably.

Here's the thing about a 30-day pause. That is kind of a worst-case scenario. I understand what Trump wants to be able to say that it's over. But the problem is that that just, like, it's another month out of uncertainty. It's because what, Iran's not going to dismantle their nuclear weapons. They've been very clear on this. And also, they've realized now that they can run the straight of Hormuz, and we can't do anything about it.

And so what does a month get us other than just thinking about it in the political context of America, getting us closer to the midterms and still no resolution? Yeah. And it makes us negotiating position weaker, and I guess it's kind of true on both sides.

You know, and I think the Iranians are obviously having economic problems, but, you know, we had a vote in the Senate, you know, a war powers vote that didn't go Trump's way. The House vote, Jared Golden, who was the one Democrat that voted with the Republicans on this, said that he's flipping just a couple hours ago.

So, yeah, finally. So like maybe Congress is a pass. Please clap for Jared Golden. No, that was not really. But so the war powers situation in Congress is, you know, isn't looking as good. And obviously every day this goes on, the gas prices are up, but isn't looking as good.

I mean, like, his leverage is tanking. Well, and then you add on to that, so, you know, there's been reporting that Iran has been able to sort of reconstitute some of its missiles. Obviously, they've shown that they can control the strait. There's rumors that they're getting help from the Chinese and the Russians. The longer you keep this going, the more emboldened they become. The leverage points we had were this blockade, but if that gets resolved, then what are we doing here?

And I guess we've talked about this a lot, but I guess it's just sort of worth stressing, which is there's no way out for him that isn't embarrassing, right? Like the most obvious way out is he cuts a deal that is just sort of a variation of what Obama did in 2014, 2015. Yeah, probably worse. Probably worse. Yeah, that would be the best case scenario. Yeah, because in this case, yeah, you're right. I mean, the New Deal would involve probably some sort of toll on the straight, which was open.

And he can't, I mean, he could do it. and just take his lumps, but it would be a humiliation. And so I just think we're stuck with this terrible status quo. In 30 days, with these gas prices rising, it's bad. I mean, it's really bad. I'm glad you mentioned the Chinese, though, because this is actually, they are helping Iran, and the Chinese desperately want us to stay in a low, simmering war with Iran,

because it continues to elevate them as the world's superpower while we are mired down in these silly wars. Like, this is, like, whatever, I say it all this. time. But this is just, we are committing superpower suicide in real time. Yeah. Are we happy about that or no? Yeah. And he got Mogged pretty hard by that Chinese. Okay. I want to talk to about the thing that I was very upset about on the plane. Anybody have a chance to watch Squawk Box this morning? I was stuck on an airplane, so I was watching a little bit of Squawk Box. Jeff Bezos was on. And I was so angry. You guys don't like your Amazon?

Yeah, you've all canceled your prime. I do like a prime. But I was so mad about what I'm about to show you that I literally Googled Fuck Jeff Bezos T-shirt and I purchased one off of Bobble. So you might be seeing that. I purchased that somewhere over New Mexico. You didn't buy it off of Amazon?

No. Let's watch Jeff Bezos. assessing how he thinks Trump's doing. When I last interviewed you, it was about two years ago. President Trump had just won. He was not the president yet. And I'd asked you what you thought of him at the time. And you said that you thought that he had mellowed, that he was calmer. Yeah.

And I'm curious now, here we are. Yeah. I still think that. Two years later. Yeah. We've had lots of wars and tariffs and all sorts of things that have happened since then. What do you think? I think he has, I mean, I'm comparing him to his first term.

Yeah. And I think he is a more mature, more disciplined version of himself than he was in his first term. Trump has lots of good ideas, and he's done a lot of, he's been right about a lot of things. You have to give him credit where credit is due. More mature, more disciplined, he's done a lot of good things, and you've got to hand it to him. I don't know. Okay, so I have two questions. What earth is Jeff Bezos on, and where are the peptides that he's getting?

Where is it getting the peptides from? Because he does have a new look. Sarah. Okay. So here's the thing about, when he says mature, does he mean, does he mean so old that his skin is falling off of his body and he's decomposing in front of us?

What does mature mean? I would, Aaron Ross Sorkin, he's very cute, but I would love. love, I just want to be on the other side of that interview to be like, give me one example of his maturity. Give me, what is one thing that Donald Trump has done? He said, like, he's been, you got to admit, got to hand it to him, he's been right about a lot. Name one thing. What has he

been right about? And I'm not even, I'm not even playing for clax. I'm genuinely curious. I'm trying to think, was he right about the tariffs? Which, was he right about the Melania documentary? Yes. Oh, no, no, no, no. Like, is he right about the war in Iran? Has he been right about the slush fund that he's built to be corrupt? Like, what is the thing that he's been right about? What is going well that J.F. Bezos could point to? I guess the tax cuts for people like him, but other than that, there is nothing. Also, I love how Jeff Bezos is like, uh, what is happening with his look?

He's so big. I mean, it definitely is not in nature. Like, whatever happened to him did not happen in nature, right? and he's a whole different person. Usually your neck doesn't expand 3X after 50. I don't think. I don't know. Maybe some of you guys know people that has happened to.

Sam, where were you at on? You have to give him credit where credit is two. Well, I don't think you do. The thing about the... You also mentioned I'll read you the Melania Dock. Yeah, I just want to set it up. He was asked about the Melania doc. Jeff Bezos said this.

It appears it was a good business decision. It did very well in theaters. It's done very well on streaming. People are very curious about Melania. So even though I had nothing to do with it, it appears the Amazon team made a very wise business decision. So we had the bulwark looked into this. It looked into the numbers.

It costs $75 million to produce and market. It made $16. million dollars, which I'm not a mathematician, but I think that's a loss. And the idea that Jeff Bezos had nothing to do with this documentary, a $75 million expenditure on his company involving obviously a very important person, the president's wife, is just, it defies logic. I think he's kind of full of shit. And in all seriousness, you know, like no one made him do this interview, right? Like, he didn't have to go out there and be obsequious, but we're in a place now where these tuck titans, especially,

but, you know, leaders of industry across the board, they just feel, even at this moment where Trump said, like, 37% approval, and everyone is just tired of the schick, that they still have to go out there and do these interviews, and it's just flabbergasting to me. You would think at some point they would say, I've had enough. Just don't have to, just don't say anything. Just don't go out there.

Well, he almost never says anything. It was so weird that he did this interview. Yeah, that's what I'm curious. Why did he feel the need to go out there? He's humiliating himself because he wants rocket contracts. Well, let me just add this, because he did say this on a substantive level. He talked, I mean, he was going out for this policy provision that he's got, which is he thinks the bottom 50th percentile of earners in the country should pay zero federal income taxes. I'm not going to quibble with that, whatever.

But he refused to say, he refused to say, that people in his bracket should pay more. He said, that's a good policy debate to have in the future. He had very firm decisions on one, but not on the other. And he refused to talk about the largesse and the contracts that Amazon gets from the government, from Donald Trump specifically. And so I think that is just, you know, it's phony shit. And he said, if you text me more, it's not going to help the teacher in Queens at all.

And I'm like, I don't know, maybe we should try it. Here's the text I sent. Sarah's not going to like this. as I was live watching this on American Airlines today, I texted my husband the following. I'm going to have a stroke over this Jeff Bezos interview on CNBC. Five minutes later, 6.55 a.m. I'm a socialist now.

I'm just, I'm like, I don't, I was like sitting there boiling over. I'm thinking about like, what kind of creative punishments can we have for Jeff Bezos in 2029? because I feel like... He has to watch the Melania documentary over and over and over again. I feel like the next DOJ... I think maybe there are... What did he say about Trump?

You have to give him credit where credit is due. He has been very good at shaking down corporate leaders for money. And so maybe we should take a page out of that book and start with Jeff Bezos next time. A $1.8 billion shakedown, maybe? Yeah. I will just say I would watch a Melania documentary about why she gave that weird press conference about how Epstein definitely didn't introduce her to Donald. That's the only Melania documentary I want to see.

Because that is still, we still don't know why she did that. That is such a good point. It just happened. We all just moved on. Yeah. Oh, okay. Thanks for telling us, Melania. Good to know.

I wish we could have prepped that clip because I could just watch it right now. I'll get to watch the press coverage. It's again. I want to talk about bulwark Bill Cassidy really quick. It's great. Yeah, it's awesome. My senator from Louisiana, who's been awful for the last five years, all of a sudden is talking a lot. I mean, he kind of sounds like Bill Crystal. I mean, honestly, let me just give you a couple of things he's done lately. Woke Bill Crystal. He's voting against the $1 billion ballroom project. He went on at length about how they haven't given any specs for it. They haven't gone to Congress and shown what exactly they're going to spend the money on. The problem is the specs. He's upset about the specs. He defended his vote to convict Trump in 2021.

He called Ken Paxton a felon after Trump endorsed him. That's just objectively true. He voted in support of the Dems War Powers Resolution on Iran. And now he sent this tweet a couple hours ago very long. I'm not going to make you read the whole thing, but there's one section I do want to read, if you'll allow me. The American people do not expect perfection from their leaders, but they do expect seriousness. Leaders who are steady, not erratic. Thoughtful, not impulsive. Their words should lower the temperature rather than inflamed division. Their actions should place the long-term interests of the country above short-term personal gain.

Leadership is not using power to serve your own needs. It's using power to serve the needs of others. someone does not understand this, they should not hold a position of leadership. Who do we think he might be talking about? Say his name, Bill Cassidy! But Sarah, you posted about this, what is it about the fact that the second these guys' political careers are over, like they start sounding totally indistinguishable from the 6 p.m. hour on MS. Now. Thanks for the plug. It was nice that you guys were clapping for Bill Cassidy as he has suddenly found religion and said, like,

Oh, no, now that I don't have a job anymore, I'm going to do the right thing. But I do not feel that way. And here, well, here's my overall. The fact, first of all, it's telling about our politics that the second that you don't have to win an election, you suddenly do what you think is right. And what you think is right is obviously to stand up to Donald Trump, right? That is obviously what Bill Cassidy knows to be true. And I have this fight with friends of mine sort of in the democracy space who wanted to help Bill Cassidy and support Bill Cassidy. They're like, this guy voted for impeachment.

We should support him. And that is a position that I think six or seven years ago I would have endorsed, right? Like you do have to show up for these guys. But I don't know if you saw, do you saw Bill Cassidy's ads? Horrible. It's just him talking about how much he loves Trump and how much Trump loves him. And so I think that there is basically no more pronounced. being in our politics than people who know better, who know what Donald Trump is doing,

and don't do it when it matters. The only good thing I'll say, the only good thing I'll say about Cassidy is, I do think it is interesting the way that Trump has gone on this jihad against anybody who opposed him, right? Those people have seven more months in office. And something that I think Democrats should do, I don't have to be happy about Bill Cassidy. I'm in a fuck Bill Cassidy mode. That guy voted. That guy voted.

He is the reason that RFK is currently presiding over our health. He betrayed everything he knew to be true and good in order to try to get that Senate seat. And I think that if you're going to go, he should have the second that he took that vote. He had six years in office. He could have done so much over the last six years that he's not doing. But okay, he's got seven months now. There are a number of people who Trump has gone after, Massey too. They should vote against Donald Trump every single time.

Democrats should go grab them and say, I would like this Yolo seven months, like, let's do this. Let's do something. And I think that that is an offensive way to use somebody like Bill Cassidy, who wants to make it right with him and his God, right? He needs to unburden himself. And like, Tillis, too. Like, there's a caucus now that you can go to and say,

let's defeat everything this guy does. And I think Trump is going to live to regret how hard he went at these guys. Yeah, and Cornyn. Sam, why don't you jump in on that? Because I think this is very meaningful as far as them being able to get anything past this year. Yeah, I agree 100% with everything you just said. But whoever yelled, it's too little too late.

You're right. It's too little too late. And I think there's some horrible, awful irony that this is happening with this Ebola outbreak in Africa. Because, yeah, it's terrible. I mean, because we are in a situation. right now where our main healthcare leaders and officials are cranks and conspiracists, where we've gutted our own health care administration and we've retreated from the global

health care community in very serious ways, extremely serious ways. Our colleague Jonathan Cohn had an article the other night about what the cuts to USAID mean for the Ebola fight in Africa, and it is substantial. That was the front line of our resistance to Ebola in 2014. it is just not there because it was cut. Okay. Yeah. And I don't think it's unfair to say that in the effort to save his own political fortunes,

the failed effort to save his own political fortunes, Bill Cassidy's vote for AFK Jr. killed people. It absolutely killed people. And so he has to live with that for the rest of his life. And whether he can go yolo for seven months, great. Have at it. But that doesn't absolve the damage that has been done and the people whose lives have been lost because of the decisions that he made. What should my Ebola concern level be right now?

New Orleans feels like probably the most likely landing spot. You don't need to be too concerned. According to Jonathan's much more than me, but, I mean, look, this is a serious outbreak. This is the third most pernicious Ebola outbreak in history, and this is only a couple weeks in, okay? So this is nothing to scoff at. Fortunately, the disease spreads in ways that you have to have, I don't want to get too technical, but you just got to get in touch with the saliva and the blood and all that stuff.

You should be worried. Yeah, okay, never mind. Long story short, it's a big international problem, and that will, of course, affect the United States, but the idea that there will be an outbreak in the United States is pretty small. Noted. Okay, we'll look into the dental dams. I do think that

I do think that No lesbian in the history of the universe has ever used the dental dam I do think I do think it's going to be really hard for them to pass a budget this year and I think that the ballroom and the arch and all that is in real threat Did you see the arch?

Okay, you must have missed the story that happened like two hours ago they're citing they're citing a law passed a hundred years ago to say that Congress has authorized the construction of the arch today. A hundred year.

It's just going to go and do the arch. Kind of similar to the latest Supreme Court ruling on the voting rights act, only 70 years ago. So I just, this also just happened, but I don't know if you guys saw this. This jumps out of me because Brian Fitzpatrick is from my hometown, Pennsylvania. Trump is attacking him, and Fitzpatrick is now leading the charge in Congress to get the slush fund taken away. Yeah. which, again, this is more just Trump's retribution tour.

I wanted to backfire on him, and I think him going after a swing vote like Fitzpatrick, who also, he is now running unopposed on the Republican side. He doesn't have a primary. And so he won in a Kamala plus three or four district. And so him taking on Trump right now is actually politically advantageous for him to hold on to his seat. But there are, with him and Massey, like, we are now, it's fine,

you're still putting together enough numbers to potential, I'm sorry, I want the slush one taken away. I want the slush one taken away. I do too. I'm just saying, Brian Fitzpatrick wrote a strongly worded letter, and we'll see how that turns out. I know. There was part of me that said, oh, a letter, that'll show them. Speaking of Fitzpatrick, Sam suggested that we rank the which Republican cuck was the most pathetic. in their handling of Donald Trump over the past 10 years.

Is it a ranking or do we just pick somebody? We're going to pick the worst. I'm providing a list of nominees. We'll throw Fitzpatrick in there and we'll see if he can fight its way out. John, Lindsey Graham. Wait, wait, just the parameters here. These are people who, I've chosen people who are either lost office or we'll lose office.

So that doesn't include this out, right? Like these are people who, they're, political career has ended, and they left ignobily. You know, our boy Adam Kinsinger's not on there, right? It's people who left with their tail-tucked, still grovelling to Trump. Here we go. John Cornyn, big bad John Cornyn, Bill Cassidy. I can't believe you put our girl MTG on here.

Poor M.T.G. Nike Pence, that's a bad nomination. Nikki Haley, Chris Christie, and some other good ones. Corker. Do you guys have somebody in mind for each of you? I have my choice. Okay, well, let's hear it. I think John Cornyn. Yeah, let's hear it.

Because, like, what was his transgression exactly? He did nothing to, like, fuck with Trump. I think at one point he was like, well, I would have done something differently than that. And that was, like, literally all it took. And then Trump endorses Ken fucking Paxton, like, the most miserable human being ever to run for office, the most ethically challenged individual in politics, that's a humiliation. I don't think any one of these other people can match.

Sarah? My most cucked Republican is not on this list. Oh, great. His name is John Federman. Oh! Well, that's a curveball. Just kidding. No, you didn't like that choice?

I wouldn't tell you guys my choice beforehand. I still like John Fetterman as the choice. I'm just waiting for the rationale. Oh, explanation. So he is, he's never going to win his seat. Like, Conor Lamb's going to run against him in a Democratic primary, and it's going to be over, which, by the way, for everybody wearing a JVL is always right shirt.

Wrong. I would just like to say, I was Connor Lamb from the jump, explained why Fetterman would be bad. JVL was like, no, he's going to be the president someday. and everybody was like, yeah, JVL's always right, and I would just like to know what everybody thinks now. How do you like your Federman now? In JBL's defense, he had a stroke, immediately lost a lot of IQ points,

and all of a sudden Donald Trump was making sense. He hangs out at Butterworths in D.C., and all he does is blame Democrats for everything and hang out with Republicans, and he loves Donald Trump, and I think that he's the most cocked. I am sorry. You guys are both wrong. The most cucked Republican, by far, was Chris Christie.

And he tried to win it back by running for president again and doing some good things, which was fine. But before that, Donald Trump almost killed Chris Christie with COVID. Donald Trump had COVID. They prepped for the debate together. Donald Trump blew his breath into Chris Christie's fat face. Christy went to the hospital. came out of the hospital and still was like, Mr. Trump, can I get you a White Castle?

No. Chris Christie, humiliating. And all you guys are a cheap date that came back around on him. I'm never forgetting. I take your point. Final topic for the podcast. We'll move on to the next segment. I usually don't, I never actually play Donald Trump's voice on the podcast.

You're welcome. Because it's a live show, we're going to make an exception, because Trump, because we're here in California, I'm sorry, we're here in California, well, the President of the United States had some pretty strong words about you guys, and I just felt like we should watch. If we had Jesus Christ come down and count the votes,

I would have won California, because I'd do great with Hispanics. But it's a rigged vote. They said out 38 million votes. Nobody knows where they're going. Of course, the Democrats are, I guess. Disproportionately, Democrats get many more votes. Some get eight votes.

They get eight cards, and Republicans have to call in, where's my card? It's a rig system. One of the most, not the worst, I'll give you a list. Maybe I'll do my list, but California's one of the most dishonest states for learning. One of the most dishonest states in America. Nice middle finger out there. Have any of you voted eight times? No.

If Jesus Christ counted the votes, Donald Trump would have won California. His hair's looking awfully flat. Didn't his hair look weird? He looks awful. He looks awful. I watched one of his 20s. It's almost like he's 80 years old and too old to be the president.

He looks awful. It was an unflattering angle on that video, I will say. Making great points. Okay. That's the podcast. Thanks, everybody. Wait, wait, wait. We didn't do the fight part.

We're coming. Calm down. I'm the host, okay? I'm here in the host chair, the host of the flagship daily podcast. Yeah, you've got your shows, focus group, whatever. You're in charge of that. Illegal news, have you heard of it?

Illegal news. It's doing okay in the rankings. All right, we, that's the podcast, everybody. We'll see you back here tomorrow for another edition with Mike Murphy. Peace. The board podcast is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper, Associate producer Anzley Skipper, and with video editing by Katie Lutz,

and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.