The Bulwark Podcast - Andy Beshear and Terry Moran: The Power of Normal People

Episode Date: November 4, 2025

With Trump slashing SNAP benefits, Gov. Beshear is asking the people of Kentucky to look out for their neighbors so they don't go hungry—since the administration won't. Meanwhile, Trump's tariffs are hammering farmers in the Bluegrass State at the same time Republicans are sabotaging rural healthcare. And reporting from Chicago, Moran finds his hometown still full of tough, independent people who won't be pushed around: True to form, moms, bystanders, and priests are standing up to immigration agents while Trump tries to flex the full force of his authoritarian ambitions. Plus, Norah O'Donnell did not stand up for the truth, and the legacy and patriotism of Dick Cheney. Gov. Andy Beshear and Terry Moran join Tim Miller. show notes The Bulwark's Special Election Night Coverage at 8ET Bill and JVL on the legacy of Dick Cheney Terry's Substack Terry's recent reporting from Chicago Andrew's recent interview with Iowa's Rob Sand To get 6 bottles of wine for $39.99, head to NakedWines.com/THEBULWARK and use code THEBULWARK for both the code AND PASSWORD.

Hey, y'all, we got an absolutely packed show today, but I got a few quick notes for you. First, we're going to stay mostly away from today's off-year elections in Virginia, New Jersey, and New York, as we're going to have a deep dive on that on tomorrow's pod. And if you want to join us to watch along live tonight, we're going to have a full rundown on YouTube, starting at 8 Eastern with Sam Stein and some friends. And then we're going to have a live next-level podcast sometime around 9-15-ish when we have a sense for the results. So hang out with us on YouTube tonight. Before we get to our guests, Governor Andy Mishire and Terry Moran, who I'm super excited about, I wanted to speak briefly about the death of Dick Cheney.

Bill Crystal and JVL will have much more on that over on the Bullwark-Takes feed, if that is of interest. But as for me, I never worked for Dick Cheney. I don't think I ever met him, not that I can recall. I was a campaign guy of a different era. It's an unfortunate reality that the first line of any obit about the former vice president must be his spearheading of the disastrous Iraq war, which was somehow the single worst policy choice of my lifetime, including all the crap Trump has thrust upon us. There was a war that caused incalculable death and suffering for far too many.

And shit, I mean, I think it very well may have led us to this populist nationalist moment. So I don't think there's any sense in trying to spin or whitewash that. But alongside of that, humans are complicated and complicated. complex. We all contain noble and ignoble within us. If nothing else, we know that Dick Cheney was a good and loyal father and husband. I went back and rewatch the 2000 vice presidential debate, and he basically comes to the left of Joe Lieberman on the question of gay marriage. He said he wanted to be open-minded and tolerant on that. He said that the state should decide. He was no doubt influenced in those remarks by his daughter Mary.

Then four years later, in August 2004, while the Bush campaign was running at this, decided the ignoble tactics on the topic. Dick Cheney spoke out at a campaign stop in Mississippi, of all places. He said freedom means freedom for everyone. People ought to be free to enter any type of relationship they want to. It was a position obviously got a step with his boss, with both major parties at the time. Even his daughter Liz didn't go that far in her campaign for Senate almost a decade later. It was an important and significant thing for the then-sitting vice president to stand out for people's right to enter into a marriage if they want to, no matter their sexual orientation in the Deep South on a campaign trail in 2004.

Then again, more recently, in August 2022, Dick Cheney actually made me cry. He ran this ad on behalf of his daughter's hopeless campaign for re-election following her bucking of Trump after the insurrection. I just want to play a little clip from it. Lynn and I are so proud of Liz for standing up for the truth, doing what's right, honoring her oath to the Constitution, when so many in our party are too scared to do so. Liz is fearless. She never backs down from the fight.

There is nothing more important she will ever do than lead the effort to make sure Donald Trump is never again near the Oval Office. And she will succeed. I am Dick Cheney. I proudly voted for my daughter. I hope you will too. Liz obviously didn't succeed in that fight based on where we are, but it was an important fight. And it was one that came against interest, came against their family history, and against their social circle. It was not an easy thing to do. It took courage, it took backbone. We are continuing to hold the torch for Dick Cheney in the...

this fight today. And so on this day, I'm going to remember Dick Cheney as a father, somebody who took on two politically toxic, seemingly hopeless, and morally righteous causes on behalf of his daughters. And he did so clear and steely-eyed as he did on everything else. So rest easy, Dick Cheney, my love to Liz and his family, who are dealing with this loss today. Up next, Bashar and Terry Moran. Hello, welcome to the Bullwark podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We got a doubleheader today in segment two.

It is Terry Moran, has been reporting live from Chicago. But first, he needs a pretty short introduction. He's a governor of Kentucky. It's Andy Bashir. How you doing, Governor? I'm good. Thanks for having me on. One of my buddies was made an honorary Kentucky colonel. I hear that you do that down there. So I'm just, I don't know what the nomination process is like, etc. But I just wanted to mention that at the top that I'm interested. Well, it is a, it is a tough process where we only make a couple hundred kernels a month. It's a process that helps spread Kentucky around the country and around the world. We try to recognize great service and all types of areas.

feels like you can sneak me in then we've got a i'm coming to a gay wedding in kentucky next year maybe i can do a double dip become a colonel head to a wedding or we'll talk about it look forward to that i want to talk a lot about kind of big picture democratic stuff i did some tweeting about you that prompted this this here podcast but first just a little bit on the news obviously the government shutdown is continuing the loss of snap funds you know has started for a couple of days now it's pretty acute in red states i know that you guys are trying to figure out ways to patch that What exactly is the impact of this shutdown in Kentucky and particularly the SNAP issue? It's significant. First, we've got between 20 and 30,000 federal employees, many of which are going without a paycheck.

At a time when things cost too much, at a time when far too many people live, paycheck to paycheck, not getting one at all is just brutal. And so we're thinking about each and every one of those families. then there is the president's decision originally not to fund SNAP at all and now to only partially funded. I want to be clear that this is entirely on the president. This is the first shutdown that SNAP hasn't been funded. And a president who has never really cared about what he can and can't do under the law took the position that his lawyers told them that he could not fund SNAP. So I sued him, along with a number of other governors and AGs, and we got a very clear ruling that said he could either fund it in full or in part. And now they have chosen to only fund it in part. So we've got 600,000 Kentuckians that rely on SNAP to help them to have enough to eat. It should be a no-brainer to fully fund it. A president should never make a decision where people don't have enough to eat, especially in a country that grows enough food for everyone. You know, my faith and values are driven by, you know, the miracle of the fishes and the loaves, which is so important, it's in every book of the gospel.

And it should teach us to always make sure our neighbor has enough food. So in Kentucky, we're stepping up and doing what we can. You know, no state's going to be able to make up for, in Kentucky, it'd be at least $50 million a month that the federal government is not covering. Wow. But as a start, we have provided $5 million in emergency funding to our food banks who are, working to get it out all over the Commonwealth. And then we're asking neighbors to help their neighbors to donate. And if the federal government won't do the right thing, the people of the United States should do the right thing. In addition, obviously, the most important thing are people that are

potentially going hungry and losing access to food that they've been relying on. In addition to that, obviously, like farmers, you know, contribute this food to SNAP. This is part of a broader, you know, trend of Trump administration policies that are hurting ag country between, you know, the trade wars, et cetera. Absolutely. I keep talking about like what you're seeing on the ground and the more rural part of the states and how this administration's policy has been affecting the economy there. Yeah, farmers are getting hammered.

The Trump administration, maybe the worst presidential administration towards farmers that I've seen in my lifetime. You look at his trade war and how it has pushed China to purchase soybeans from Brazil, in Argentina, Kentucky farmers grow soybeans and corn in that rotation, as do farmers throughout most of the Midwest, losing this giant market on top of USAID, which was another big client of farmers, on top of the cuts to the farm to cafeteria program, is hitting farmers every which way. And then the Trump administration decides they're going to do a huge, multi-billion-dollar bailout of Argentina, which is now providing those soybeans to China, taking away that market

from us, and now cattle farmers are getting hit. Because the Trump administration is talking about purchasing beef from Argentina, that same place we are bailing out, that same place that's taking our soybean market. And let me tell you, our cattle farmers are fired up. Do you think it's breaking through in the world saying, in addition to the ag and the farm stuff, there's also the health care, you know, issue and the cuts to health care that we're seeing from the administration, a listener sent me a screenshot from like the next door, so like the neighborhood conversations, you know, and her community. And, you know, there are a lot of people that are like blaming the Democrats for the increase in health care. I guess, you know, Obamacare must be

Democrat, et cetera. I do this is kind of a challenge for Democrats to message, you know, particularly in this information environment, to people in rural communities and more red communities about like why this is happening, why they're losing access to health care, why their Obamacare is going up, why their SNAP is going away. Do you have any thoughts on how to communicate that? Well, I think it is starting to break through, and it will continue to break through. One of the challenges in rural America is the National Democratic Party for decades didn't invest. And the Republican National Party demonized Democrats throughout those decades with significant investments. And thus, sometimes it became a part of people's identity, their party, or at least the party they didn't want to be a part of. And that doesn't change overnight. But what you do see are people knowing where these policies come from or most people knowing them. And that's in part. And I want to give him credit for this. Donald Trump owns his terrible policies more than any other president that I've ever seen. I mean, he held that big tariff board. And so anybody that's impacted by tariff,

They know that this is Donald Trump's policy and the fact that it changes so much that it's so chaotic has his fingerprints all over it. We've gone from across the board to reciprocal, to industry specific, to company specific, to product-specific tariffs. We've now seen tariffs because he doesn't like a commercial during the World Series or the baseball playoffs. We've seen tariffs against Brazil over a prosecution on non-economic grounds. it's making coffee prices go up, which impacts most Americans. I even know of a small business in Western Kentucky. And they were booming, but they get their raw materials from China. And then they assemble their product in the United States.

We get the better part of that deal because those assembly jobs pay good wages to the people of Western Kentucky in this instance. But because of their products, the price going up because of tariffs, they've had to start laying people off. And when a small business starts laying people off, it's people they go to church with. It's people who their kids play on a soccer team with. And let me tell you, at least one of these owners is telling every single employee that he lays off exactly who caused it. And that's Donald Trump. All right, y'all, today's sponsors Naked Wines. You know, I, when I was living in the Bay Area, everybody around me was a pretend wine expert.

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that's $100 bucks off your first six bottles at nakedwines.com slash the bulwark and use the code and password the bulwark for six bottles of wine for $39.99. So let's go back to your assessment of kind of why the Democrats have lost ground and more rural and red parts of America. And I think it's definitely true that the lack of investment is there and that Republicans have done so. And there's a media environment

that demonizes Democrats that there. A lot of folks are in Scotson, for sure. I think also, though, it's just a reality. Like the Democrats have gone left on cultural issues, I think, over the decades, you know,

when I was coming up back when I was a Republican, there are a lot of Democrats who had far more conservative views on a variety of issues, be it immigration, abortion, gay marriage, whatever it may be. And there's less of that now. And I wonder if how much of that you attribute to the Democrats' loss of ground, like they maybe have gotten out of step with more culturally conservative America

on some of those social issues. I'm not sure that it's a particular view on an issue as much as how much time that the people of America think, We spend on any one issue. So I'm governor of a state that went to Trump plus 30 in the last election. I've got about a 64% approval rating, and I vetoed every anti-LGBQ bill that's come across my desk. I vetoed anti-choice bills that have come across my desk. And I think the reason that I still win is while some people may disagree with me on those issues,

they know I spend 80% of my time focused on things that impact 100% of the people of Kentucky. That's their jobs and whether they can afford the things they need. It's their next doctor's appointment for themselves, their parents, or their kids. So roads and bridges they drive, the school they drop their kids off at, and whether they feel safe in their community. So I may on one day veto a bill that somebody supports, but if the next day I'm opening a new factory that pays great wages that's going to change people's life in that community,

I think this last presidential election has shown that that's where people are. That's what they care about the most, that they may have very strong convictions on different things. But if they're struggling to pay their child's next prescription, they're looking for a candidate that lives right there that gets real results and that betters their lives. So I think that Democrats, we just need to spend more of our time on what are really nonpartisan issues that better people's lives and show we are the party that gets results. Now, the other thing I think we need to do is speak like normal human beings. I mean, to talk to people and not to talk at them and to never talk down to them. And we shouldn't be judging voters that are out there because we need them to come back and vote for Democratic candidates. But we use sanitized terms like substance use disorder instead of addiction.

You take something that's mean and nasty with the word addiction that we all feel. And we use something so sanitized, it just has no emotion on SNAP benefits. I mean, saying that more people are going to be food insecure isn't going to pressure the administration to do the right thing. But seniors going hungry and children going hungry. I mean, that again has the real emotion, the reality that can hopefully push people to do the right thing. So I agree with all of that. That makes me nervous because when you're saying stuff that is exactly what I agree with, I start to think, well, there must be something else to the story here because I don't think. Maybe we're just in the right lane.

Oh, yeah, well, maybe. That could be right. But I look at you, I feel like there's got to be something else there. Like, that's a nice story. But, you know, Heidi High King of I had on the pod last week, she lost in North Dakota. She talked like a normal person. I don't think anybody thought she was really focused on far-left cultural issues. Brandon Presley lost in Mississippi a couple years ago.

I don't think anybody thought he was, you know, some liberal culture warrior. You know, we could go down the list of Democrats who have lost. lost in these states who kind of took your advice? Is there something like, what else could it be? You know, is there another element to this that, you know, you think Democrats need to think about? Well, I think a third piece is Democrats are really focused on the what. We get obsessed with our policies, with policy point three, sub point two, bullet point four. We get way down in the weeds on the what, but we never talk about the why. And what people want to know a lot of times is what drives you. What makes you authentically want to do this job

and to be able to feel like they know enough about you to where they know why you make certain decisions. So when I vetoed the nastiest anti-LGBQ Plus bill, our state had ever seen in the middle of my reelection, I talked about my why. And for me, that's my faith. It teaches me that all children are children of God, and I didn't want people picking on those kids. A legislature is going to show them hate. I wanted to show them love if the legislature was going to show them judgment. I wanted to show them acceptance. And I talked about it in those terms because that's how I feel about it. The other side then ran $10 million of the most awful, terrible ads. I ran $9 million of, look at all the great jobs they were creating ads. And I won by four and a half more points than I was elected by four

years before. And so I do think that there is a path, but it's respecting voters enough to talk about not just the what, but the why. Now, admittedly, getting results is also really helpful. Now, since I've been governor, we've created the most jobs. We've had the most private sector investment. We've broken our exports record. We've broken our tourism record three straight years. Drug overdose deaths are down. And so what Democrats do when we win is we govern well. And you see that across Democratic governors. And that's why I think you see Democratic governors winning and winning re-election. And I think that's really important that it can't just be about the election. It can't just be about the policies, but you actually have to make people's life

better when you get the opportunity. On the while, you went straight to faith. And it's kind of awkward one to bring up. But I just, I do think that there is an impression that the Democratic Party has become at least somewhat hostile to Christianity, fair or unfair. You know, as I'm interviewing a Hispanic influencer guy who said basically, like, he thinks part of the reason why Democrats lost ground with Hispanics is that, like, there's, you know, that if you go back in the past, whether it be Joe Biden or past Democratic candidates, like, there's a sense that they were Christian, they believed in God and that that is lost a little bit. Do you sense that? I mean, do you think about that at all? Do you intentionally talk about your faith, going to church,

all that? Well, I talk about my faith because it's part of me. It's part of what drives me, and I think our candidates need to be authentic about what drives them. You know, Josh Shapiro talks about his faith, which is different from mine, but it still teaches those same value sets, and people respect faith, even if it's different from theirs. People could talk about how they were raised, doing right, and not doing wrong, as long as it's real to them, but for the longest time, Democrats were scared to talk about their why. Now, I think we absolutely have to do it. I mean, Democrats can't sound like sanitized robots.

People demand authenticity in a world of social media where you can cease people in very different ways. Things like this, they expect you to answer tougher questions, and then they just want to feel like they know you a little bit. I'll tell you what, maybe one of the main reasons I won re-election in Kentucky by so much compared to before is people in Kentucky don't call me governor. They call me Andy. and part of that is because especially during the pandemic, I had a daily update for a year and a half without missing a single day, but it created a relationship where if you're doing that every day, they're going to see exactly who you are. You're not going to be able to hide one piece of who you are. But even when I'd make a mistake, the fact that it was up front and real

and authentic, you know, people can forgive that as long as they see who you are and that you're trying. You got teenage kids, right? I do. Pray for me. You making them go to church with you on Sunday? We all go to church. Sometimes they'll go to youth group. And that's been a neat part of them. That doesn't mean they like to get up to go to church. It's like good on them. I'm not going to close your ears, mom. I used to. When I was, as soon as I got my driver's license, I pretended to go to church on Sunday and went and got donuts and read the newspaper like a door. Now, there are lots of options now. You want to keep an eye on And then if they say they're going to the late service, you don't know what they're actually doing. Thankfully, with YouTube and the rest, there are lots of options to see your church service.

That's true. One more thing on this on the social issues. Do you think there's any issues that you feel like your party has gone too far left on or that you feel like they're out of step with you on them? Or do you really think it's just all about framing? Well, no, I think we need room in the Democratic Party for people to have different views. we've got to get away from the litmus tests. You know, the idea of a healthy democracy means even within a party, everyone doesn't have to fully agree. And elections are math. You need more people voting for you than the other person. And therefore, the more litmus tests you have, the more

purity tests you have, the fewer people that you welcome into your party. Also, we claim to be a party of inclusivity, and those litmus tests are exclusive. Now, we've got to support people when they stand up for their convictions, and people can have different convictions. But we shouldn't just be the party of this issue or that issue. We should be the party of the American dream. I mean, right now, over half of Americans believe the American dream is out of their reach, and that's really dangerous for this country. The idea that if you work hard and play by the rules that you can get ahead, if suddenly people don't believe in that, then our country is a lot of country hurts and doesn't move forward with the momentum that we need. And so we've got to be

the party of creating better jobs, of bringing down costs, of affordable health care, of making sure that people can buy their first home when they're about the same age that their parents could. I think it's the right place to be. And I also think it could help bridge this divide of us versus them because, listen, somebody may have voted Republican their entire life, but if they can't afford that first home and your policies make it possible for it, that they bring that American dream back in line, they're going to think a little bit differently in that next election. You talked about the results you deliver in Kentucky.

There is one of the other kind of debates that's going out there when Democrats look at like how things went wrong for them and how it's allowed themselves to lose power. There's a critique being posed by Ezra Klein and some others around this question of abundance, right, that like the Democrats have not actually. actually delivered the government services that they promised because of rules and regulations. I was listening to an interview you were doing a couple months ago. We were talking about how hard it was to get that rural broadband down in Kentucky. What do you make of that conversation around abundance and regulation and red tape? It's to some people, I think, in the Democratic Party,

it codes a little bit republican-y. It's like it sounds a lot like what Ronald Reagan is talking about, so it makes them uncomfortable. What do you make of it? I'm less worried about any coding than I am about getting real results for the American people. If Democrats believe that internet access is critical for the future and that we ought to have policies that allow everyone to be able to afford it, then we actually have to follow through and get the results. And if we create so many hoops that you have to jump through and so much pre-planning that three years later,

there's not one inch of fiber in the ground, we've got to recognize we're doing something wrong. And that's crazy, though. That is a catastrophe. Like three years later, it's one thing to be like, oh, this was a mistake and we didn't do it. People should have been, there should have been hair on fire and over this. And let me just say, I believe that the Democratic Party can be pro worker and pro business. And here's why I describe myself as being pro business.

I recruit the next big business to come to Kentucky. I'm going to tell them that we're going to follow every rule, but we're going to get them up and running six months faster than they would in any other state. Why is that important to me? because the faster they're up and running, the faster they hire Kentucky families, the faster someone has a better wage, the faster someone has that health insurance that's provided by that company. So as Democrats, we're supposed to believe in that end result that makes people's lives better. So we ought to be reflective about what we're doing from the passage of a bill or the decision to pursue a policy and what it takes to get there. So as we look forward to hopefully flip the House, flipping the presidency in 2028, rebuilding the federal government, we ought to do it in a way that's really effective. Because if we can deliver for the American people at a real level without any of the cruelty of the current administration, without any of the chaos, then I think we could have really good governance. We could heal the country. And we could have a lot

of Democrats doing really good things for a long time. So once again, I'm just going to challenge you because I agree with all that. You're speaking to me a little too much. It's kind of, it's kind of reminds me of when I was, I went to work for John Huntsman in 2012. And I was like, I love this guy. He's making sense. And then we finished in last place for president. So, you know, sometimes my instincts are a little out of touch with what the electorate is. A lot of other Democrats will listen to that and say, I think that, no, the real answer is there needs to be just more of a populist left focus, like centering of the workers, where, sure, bringing business into Kentucky is all fine and good, but you need to understand who

the real foes are here. It's the billionaire class. It's the elites. And Democrats need to, you know, be once again the vanguard of the working man. It would be kind of the Bernie Sanders argument that he made The New York Times this week. What would you say to that? I think the approach can and should be a lot simpler than that. That a lot of that speak where we're talking about center left or center right. It falls into that idea of the coalition that I think hurt Democrats the last time. I think Democrats in some of the campaigns were saying, well, we have to have 76% of this group and 86% of that group and 65% of this group, and they were sending different messages to all of them. And to give the Trump campaign credit, they said, let's do 3% better with

everyone. And what did it show us? That yes, there are important issues to important groups, but everyone wants to be able to afford not only the groceries for their family, but to be able to take them on vacation from time to time. And so I think we've just got to be the party that is saying we see you, we hear you, we know that you are struggling. We know the American dream feels out of reach and we are going to work harder every single day to make it a reality again to make your life a little bit better and a little bit easier. I think that's the lane for us. I think that's the lane that Trump won in. And I think that his policies now making it so much more difficult are eventually going to lead to a feeling of betrayal. But again, that lane that he won on and that we used to win on is right

there. I think Kamala would tell you she did that. It's like, what do you think, where do you think things went wrong? I believe that President Trump was able to depict the vice president as distracted, as focused on a bunch of issues that didn't necessarily impact people's daily live. And a lot of us, we see all the rallies, we read a bunch of it, but those weren't what his ads were in those swing states. Those weren't what his digital messages were. What were they? They're Things cost too much. I'm going to work to bring them down. I'm going to work harder on it.

But also, I mean, a kind of negative ads about how she supported health care for transgender immigrant prisoners. So in that last ad, I think it was, it ended up being more about distraction than anti-trans. I think if a voter was anti-trans, they were already voting for Donald Trump. But I think what he did in that ad was to say, I'm not sure that's right, though. I think there are a lot of black voters that aren't. aren't really, just for one example, you look at the interview shoot on Charlemagne the God show. Charlemagne talked about this, but there are a lot of his listeners who had been Democrats, but also have various conservative values or whatever, various views that made them not be supportive

of a trans girl playing in girls' sports. And so I think that there are maybe traditional Democrats that aren't anti-trans like bigoted, but we're on the Republican side of that debate. But I think it depends on how much they think you're going to focus on what. Now, all of us have slightly different views. We're raised in different ways. We have different life experiences. So you're almost never going to have a candidate that has 100% of the same views that you do. And if you think that, you're probably not looking closely enough.

But I think what voters are saying right now are what are the things that you're going to spend 80% of your time on? And that's why I think the formula is 80% of our time on things that matter. matter to 100% of the American people. That that 20% people can be okay with differences in if their next paycheck's going to be a little bit better, if they believe you're trying to bring down the price of pharmaceuticals. If you've built that new road, it saves them 20 minutes each way, and they've got 40 more minutes with their family. I'm with you on all that. I'm just trying to figure out what it looks like. I'm sorry to like belabor the point because I just, I think that if you ask Joe Biden's team and Kamala Harris's team, they would say they tried to take your advice.

I don't think that they were really focused on transports or climate or identity issues, particularly. The vice president went out of her way, I think, to not talk about identity issues in my view. So it feels like there's something else there. And I wonder if you had a time machine and were able to go back to 2020 and sit down with Joe Biden in the Oval Office and say, I'm from the future. You know, Doc Brown gave me this DeLorean. And I'm telling you that we're going to lose now. next time based on the current plans. What would you have told them to get it on a different trajectory?

Was there anything that they could have done to get us on a different trajectory? Yeah, I would have done a couple of things. First, I would have told him fewer regulations, fewer rules, get the dollars for internet for all and for other programs out there, and then carefully watch and audit all of us and make sure that we follow the rules, but actually have all of that work happening. They were under the belief that once a law passed that the next administration wouldn't be able to pull it back. And I'd seen that in Kentucky. I was Attorney General under a Republican governor that at a time of a budget surplus, refused to send all the dollars appropriated to our universities. And I had to sue to make it happen. And so I'd seen this

happen before. I would say, if you want eight years to be able to put these programs in, they've got to really be humming in the first four. And then I'd say you also got to get out and show people what you're doing. People need to see and feel and touch the progress that's out there. When I was going into re-election in 2023, 2021 had been our best year for economic development ever by far. 2022 had been our second best year by far. And I was running against an opponent that had spent one year in the private sector. And ironically, he'd worked for my law firm. A little awkward. But when we originally polled, you know, who's better for the economy because of the Democrat Republican thing, I was only winning by about four or five points. And I just couldn't believe it

with all this work. But what we saw in focus groups, which can be effective, just to get your mind where people's minds are if you're really listening, was that people just need to be reminded. They're not living in the every day that you are. And so we said, what about the $5.8 billion battery plants? And they said, oh, yeah, I heard about all those jobs. If you talk to them about new jobs in their community, which we did. We put them on our mailers, specifically in their county, that they drove by every single day. If you send out a postcard to everyone who lives within 10 miles of a new important road project, I would say, get out there and just make sure that people know that reason that your life is a little bit better is because of this administration.

And I'll tell you, I was at a lot of groundbreakings for them. And you know who is standing there with me, the Republican congressman that voted against it. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I don't get back to the Republicans, but just, the last thing on this, it's awkward, but I just think, was the problem that Joe Biden wasn't capable of going out there? And just because it was age, didn't have the vigor, the communication skills anymore to do it, and that the Democrats should have just dealt with that reality earlier? So I think certainly the pandemic played a role in the first part. I think a focus on foreign policy when people were crying out domestically, you know, impacted it too. And they admitted that on the health side as a governor, you know, I see the president twice a year.

And so it's hard for me to know exactly where things were. I mean, again, I can just, I don't think that there are any Republicans out there, governors out there who are saying I don't ever hear from Donald Trump. Like my understanding is that he's pretty visible. I will say he is visible, but the way he's visible is very different. Sure. Donald Trump gets out there and goes to sports. And just being seen, we can see, is helpful. What we don't see him doing is traveling to states on the economy or on health care, on major policy pieces. And I think that's going to come back and hit him later on. You don't think that the age thing was the problem last time? Oh, I think age played a role. There's no question that age played a role.

There's even nuanced questions that you can ask about energy to run in the toughest election in the world. Back to Trump and him getting out there. I forget, I guess it was on John Stewart's listening to one of the other interviews where you're saying that, you know, obviously you grade Trump's performance pretty low, but, you know, you should compliment administrations when they do things well. I think you acknowledged FEMA at that time, this a couple months ago, was doing well at that time. Here we are like 10 months in. Like, what would you say are the things that the administration has done that's the most damaging? Maybe it's what we've already discussed. And are there anything that you think that they've done that you think you approve of?

Well, the big ugly bill is going to be the most devastating of their policies. And that's saying something because tariffs are really awful and are slowing the economy and are causing job losses and may well cause a recession will at least prevent what we was going to be really significant growth. But the big ugly bill, I mean, it's going to take a trillion dollars out of primarily rural health care. It's going to close rural hospitals. Kentucky may lose 20,000 health care workers.

Remember, that's one of the fastest growing parts of rural economies. The largest payroll in a lot of these communities are going to close. And that means the restaurant, the coffee shop, and the bank all may close too. You're going to see property values decrease, which is going to impact schools. and then worker productivity is going to go way down because you've got to take a full day off just to see a doctor, then you've got to take your kids, and then you've got to take your parents. And so this is going to hit rural America like a sledgehammer. On the positive side, the FEMA response, certainly to February flooding in Kentucky, was some of the best I'd seen.

I also think we've got to give them some credit for getting hostages back recently. I wish that could have been done faster, but listen, a lot of people got to come home to their families. I want to talk about the governor's races out there really quick. You're the head of the government association, and then they'll do some fun stuff, and I'll let you get out of here. How do we get more Andy Bashir? Some of the Democrats get more Andy Bashir's out there. I'm looking at the races in 2026 in red states.

You've got Kansas and Iowa jumped out at me. Are you seeing other candidates that are doing things you like in particular? I am. And I'm the head of the Democratic Governors Association in 2026, and our goal is to change the map, is to win in places that people don't expect. And part of that is having really good candidates. You look at Iowa and Rob Sand has gotten elected statewide as auditor a bunch of times. I've been with him.

I've heard him. What a great candidate. And I think he's going to have a really good opportunity. We did a great interview with him over onto the YouTube. I'll put in the show notes for people who want to learn more about him. He was good. And so I think that's an example. Now, another example is having a good candidate.

And then the other side puts up an extremist. You saw that when John Bell Edwards, and he became governor of Louisiana, just as hard to run in in Kentucky before I won. Now, I remember the call when he was running, when he described how he was going to win, and he was right, that his opponent was going to be too extreme and that he was going to focus on people's everyday lives. And so that's what we'll be looking for. Now, John Bell Edwards is pro-life, though. He took some cultural views to the right, back to that conversation. from earlier. It's worth noting. But look at where he was on climate change. I mean, for instance. And so you think we can put all these in one bucket or another. I'd love to have

John Bell Edwards right now, man. We got the worst governor in America down here, Jeff Landry. He's fucking up the football coach search in addition to everybody's sales taxes are going up. There are no jobs. He's doing nothing right. Well, John Bell is a good friend of mine. Great governor. Good example of how you can govern in states where the governor may be one party in the legislature. another. So I still called John. And by the way, when Kentucky got hit really hard by the worst tornado disaster in our life and the worst flooding disaster, John Bell and y'all in Louisiana gave us, gave us your travel trailers that you had kept in good condition. After the tornadoes, we had them up in a month. After the flooding, we had them up in six days. And we owe a big thank you

there. What about the model of having one of my people run? We got Never Trump or Jeff Duncan is in a primary in Georgia, obviously. There are other candidates, Keisha, Lance Bond was the mayor of a former mayor of Atlanta, others. So I know you probably can't pick a horse in a primary, but just in general, what do you think about the Jeff Duncan model in some of these states? I can't pick a horse in a primary. We got a lot of great candidates in Georgia, and I was all for him getting in, which some may disagree with. But listen, he was at the time a Republican willing to speak out against Trump, willing to give up his office because of it. And, you know, there's a lot to respect there. All right. Let's do some fun questions at the end. They might not all be fun for you.

They're fun for me, though. One area I like Andy, sure, one area where maybe our MO is a little different is I got a lot of people I hate. I do a lot of two-minute hate on here, which is maybe against Christian values. I'm working on that. But is there anybody, if you just look at the news right now, is there anybody out there that really is boiling your blood, that you really detest? I won't use the word hate, but, you know, J.D. J. Vance made his money initially off of criticizing my people in Kentucky. Yeah. Now, Hibiliology blames our challenges on us, claims we are lazy, and that is not who we are.

I think he is incredibly condescending, and I believe that he is fraying our alliances with Europe that are critical to world stability, supporting far-right groups, and talking down to world leaders that we should want strong relationships with. Great pick. That was my pick, too. I was hoping you'd pick J.D. Van. Stephen Miller's a close second, but J.D. is, there's a special category for him because of the smartiness. To that point, I think a lot of Democrats really want a lot more fight right now. You know, I think a lot of Democrats obviously like Tim Wall, so he did a good job as governor. We're happy he was picked his VP. And his debate performance with J.D., though, the debate was kind of collegial in a way that rubbed some people a wrong way.

I was wondering what you made of that. How do you think Tim Walz did in that debate? And what do you think the Democrats' job is when it comes to actually confronting the other side? Tim is a good friend, and he was up front with the vice president, that debating was not his strong suit, that it made him uncomfortable. You know, I got a legal background. I get excited about debates, and I take it right to my opponent. My opponent and my reelection would not, on the record, say whether he was for acceptance, for rape and incest in our total abortion ban in Kentucky.

And I will tell you, during those debates, I looked at him and I asked him in one debate six times to go on the record for it. And you could see how extreme that he was and also unwilling to just look at the camera and answer a question. Why weren't you on the short list for VP, do you think? I don't know how far I got. I don't know if I was in the elite eight or the final. You haven't called her an answer?

She's telling all the old stories now. her book to her. Listen, I don't think that I was the right fit for her, and I don't think that she thought I was the right fit for her. And I'm okay with that. So my thing was, if I was in that final game, I had two questions before, you know, I was willing to do it. Number one, what's the job? You know, being a governor's great. You got a really good job every day where you can get real results, and things are going so well in Kentucky. And the second one would have been, how in this role can I deliver for Kentucky? Because I made the promise to serve out my entire four years of my second term. I never got to ask those questions. But that's what I still had on my mind

and on my heart. All right. The most important part of Kentucky is the bourbon. I'm a bourbon man myself. I'd like a bourbon ranking from you, a top three. Do you have a top three? I don't want you get in trouble with any of those bourbon makers, but, you know, there's hard choices. That's like asking me my favorite kids. And when I look at Will and Lila, I tell them my favorite child is Winnie, the dog, because she doesn't talk back. I like a lot of them. I think mictors is really good. I love that the owner moved to Kentucky and is growing that business. I like Eagle Rare from Sazirac. That's also a really good one. I like a lot of the products that come out of Brown, Foreman. I like some of the

Whitford Reserves. The double oak, I think, is really good. The triple oak may be a little too sweet for me, but I really like the double. That's pretty good. I'm a Blanton's man, but those are all good choices. Mcters is good. The only good thing I came out of the LSU season this year is I won a bet with a listener on the Clemson

game over Blanton, and he sent me a bottle of Blanton, so shout out to him. People say you can be a little, you know, look at you, you're even mentioning your church going. Have you ever gotten any trouble? Had won too many bourbons gotten any loose? Well, I think when we're growing up, we all cut a little loose every now and then. But we all try to learn from that and being imperfect human beings, get better each and every day. All right. That's good enough. Governor Beshear, I appreciate

next time we get together, how about over a bourbon? Maybe in Kentucky when you're, when you make me a Kentucky colonel, is it like a British thing where I kneel down and you put a sword on my shoulder, or how does that work? We can do that if necessary. Okay. Maybe we'll do that over a bourbon next time in town. Sounds good. Howl at me if you get down to Louisiana. All right. Thank you for having me. All right. I appreciate it. That's Governor Andy Bashir. Up next, Terry Moran. All right, we are back. Delighted to welcome back to the show. a former foreign correspondent and Chief White House correspondent and an anchor for ABC News. He's now on Substack at Real Patriotism with Terry Moran. It's Terry Moran. What's up,

man? Welcome back to the show. Thank you. Thanks for having me. It was great the first time we talked because after that the Substack took off. I got some press. So let's do it again. I love that. And folks, you go check out your substack. You're doing great work. I'm just watching your video from Chicago this morning, which we'll talk about in a second. But first, I also wanted to get your take on former vice president, Dick Cheney, who died this morning. You, we're going back through your archive. I guess you did in a nightline interview with him, maybe back in 2005 or so, actually in Iraq.

Cheney made a surprise trip there, and you interviewed him. It seemed like from the interview kind of in a undisclosed location type situation, because you're asking him about this. And it's like, it's not really a sign that things are going well, that the nature in which your arrival in Iraq happened. But what did you remember about that and any other thoughts about the former vice president? I do remember that interview and a few trips that I took with Cheney. Let's set aside the substantive issues for a moment.

He was an old school politician. I felt like, you know, he'd been in Washington since the 1960s, early 70s. And so he was kind of, in my experience as a political reporter, the last of a breed, right? you'd get on the plane he flew around in you know the air force two which was basically the same plane and at the end of every day work day not every but he would frequently invite people invite the reporters up to his cabin to the kind of cabin and offer everybody a whiskey and sit down and take all comers it was off the record yeah it's not like he you know disclosed state secrets But you got a sense of the old insider, in the good way, insider political process, the way he talked about Democrats, affectionately, some of them, less others.

And you got a sense that he trusted the press as that in a way that I think he learned not to. And maybe it was very unhealthy, right? We're in the stage right now where it was all too cozy. And the insiders, including me, let us all down. I was White House correspondent on September 11th, 2001 and in the invasion of Iraq. But there was also something, there was Greece in the gears. And guys like that kind of made the system go. Now, he made it go in the wrong direction.

First thing that I thought of when he died, when I heard he died, was to me, the most important question when I think of a politician is, you know, are they true patriots? They love the country. And he loved the country. And I don't mean, you know, chest thumping. I mean, he was a patriot. He had terrible judgment, obviously, and a kind of strange paranoia that this great country was always at risk of being, you know, attacked and destroyed.

And it led the country down bad directions. But he loved the country, as I think he demonstrated in the last years of his life. Yeah. I went and just kind of re-looking to the transcript of the interview. And, man, you did give him the business. Deserved. You know, it was quite a time capsule from late 2000. with the Valerie Plame issues, Guantanamo, and torture at the time.

I don't know with the benefit of how long do we have now, 20 years, almost 20 years on, just on the merits of the arguments of the back and forth between the two of you, they really dug themselves a bad hole and made a lot of bad judgment on that one. They did. Thank you. I looked at that interview, actually. Coincidentally, I just thought, you know, what was that like? And there's still, the ABC still has the transcript of it up online. So I looked at it. And I thought, okay, yeah. I mean, I held him to account. The news that the federal government was spying on Americans without a warrant from any court had just broken a week or so earlier. And he kept saying, well, the Justice Department okayed it and the White House counsel. Okay. And I was saying, that's not the way it works, right? The president doesn't get to decide what's legal. We've got to have the courts involved. And, you know, it's the same.

kind of way to go from old to young. When I think about Zoran Lundani, I think this is a guy, A, you got to love his aspect, right? We're in a dreary dull, angry time. And he's a very upbeat guy. And second, in a weird way like Dick Cheney, he loves this country. Yeah. He was a little video I saw this morning where he was informed live when he went to vote that Dick Cheney had died. I want to know his internal monologue. He gave a concerned, you know, kind of response, like, oh, really? And, like, thought about it for a second. You could tell you he's thinking that he might talk.

And then he just kind of turned down and went and, you know, signed the card with the lady volunteering to vote this morning. And so, I don't know, maybe better judgment prevailed. The bottom line, people are saying, Cheney's legacy is complicated. Well, the headline is not. It was a catastrophe, the way he led George W. Bush into that war. And I remember thinking at the time that Bush was completely unprepared for that, for September 11th in its aftermath. And he kind of looked around. He'd never been around the world, really, at all.

When Bush was elected, he made his first trip to Mexico. We were all kind of same. He's never been out of the country. And they took umbrage at that. They produced a paper, which I believe is in his official papers, places the president has been outside the United States before he's president. And it was about a dozen countries. number one, Bermuda. So he was unprepared and he looked around and said, who knows anything about a world, about this world? And there was Dick Cheney. And he was de facto president for about

two years. Not complicated. We're all in Iraq, right on Trump. You know, there you go. Our thoughts are, though, with Liz and the rest of his family because it is tough. She loved her dad and listened to her talk about her dad. It was really moving. I want to hear from you about your time in Chicago. The video I mentioned earlier, which we'll link to here if people want to go watch the whole thing. I was out inside America's immigration crackdown. It is tough for us who are watching. It's hard to get your bearings on, like, how much of the city is this happening in, right?

Like, what is the scope of all of this? You see some horrible videos, and then you also see people running along like Michigan. Like, there's nothing different, right? That's the nature of these sorts of things. From your being on the ground, being in many neighborhoods, what's your sense for the scope of the immigration crackdown in Chicago? Well, it is sweeping, and everyone feels like they can be, that their neighborhood can be targeted, right? There is that randomness. And if you are, I mean, I was standing out one of the iconic locations in Chicago, right on the Chicago River, the Chicago Tribune building, that magnificent Gothic building there, rising away.

And we just planted there during morning rush hours, people were coming to work. And I asked people, so what do you think of of this? And a couple of people stopped by, and I didn't choose them. One was of Hispanic, said they're going at some office building. And she says, I'm afraid everywhere, I'm afraid, because it has that quality. It's supposed to have that quality. But the reason that I went there is something I saw in all those videos, the normies. These aren't the usual suspects who are getting in the way of ICE, who are taking out there

their phones and demanding identification or allowing the person who's being arrested to cry out their names before they're disappeared. The priests who brought Holy Communion to that detention center and were turned away by ICE. I talk to them as well. When you get people who don't do this on a regular basis, you always need instigators in every protest movement, right, left, center, whatever. But when you get the normies to come out of their house and say, this is wrong, I need to do something about it. Up in Rogers Park, we spent an afternoon with a group that has hundreds of moms who stand outside the schools during dismissal. And they blow those whistles if ICE is around. Chicago felt decisive to me. It is not decided, but it is the decisive place, I think.

Trump has bringing the full force of his immigration crackdown and his authoritarian ambitions. That's the underlying theme. And Chicago's 2.7 million of us born there. I grew up, you know, right outside. Those people are pretty independent, pretty tough, and they're not going to be pushed around. Yeah, I was interesting. You mentioned the priests. It's kind of in the context of Pope Leo being from Chicago.

You know, obviously there's maybe a little bit of extra gravity to that. And, you know, there were multiple kind of priests you talked to in church. And I'm just wondering, obviously, and a lot of the Hispanics are Catholic, you know, and there are churches that have Spanish language mass there and things that nature. So I was wondering kind of any reflections in your conversations with the priests in Chicago. You know, the two priests, two of the several that brought the Holy Communion to that detention center, one had just been ordained in June. The other had been a priest, 58 years.

And they walked together, right, with the monstrans holding the most and all that stuff. The older one said something, because I was quite moved by it, how respectful they were. They had gotten in touch with ICE in advance, days in advance. Only a few priests were going to go in, they were going to lead some crowd in. And he said, you know, essentially these old things, when you put them in a new context, gain a new and fresh power. And, you know, Trump is the head of the most powerful government in the world. No protest is ever going to defeat him, really, in physical ways. But in that kind of power, that witness, that deep, deep power, a call to patriotism, a call to common decency.

And I think that's why you see his numbers sliding. People don't want this. They understand the border was out of control. They want a solution. Americans are not ideologues by their nature. We don't give up our consciences to some great leader who tells us everything is great. We're pragmatists. We like what works.

And I think that in Chicago you felt normal people saying this is too much for me and getting out of their houses and doing what they can. And it's inspiring to see the people that are volunteering and trying to help. And it's just your heart breaks, like the idea that these kids. kids like you have to be worried when they're coming out of school that maybe somebody might be nabbing their family. And so for those people who are coming out, like that's one type of person who's making a change, who's changed their day-to-day life since these rates started. The other is kind of the inverse, folks that are staying in, right?

You were at the Little Village neighborhood, and that video was pretty shocking, where you're talking about just how the street is empty, this is a Hispanic neighborhood. You have to get buzzed in to get into the barber shop. Talk about that a little bit. That was incredible. So a little village was when I was growing up, but the great Polish neighborhood of Chicago is now the great Mexican-American neighborhood of Chicago.

And for a mile and a half or so, 26th Street is just chock-a-block with stores and restaurants and all kinds of places of business. It's the main street of Latino Chicago. It really is. And it was absolutely deserted. It was like a ghost town.

And I was thinking, well, how are we going to tell the story? here because several days earlier and the day after we left, ice was all over the place. And so people are, you know, taking cover, basically. It makes as much money as Michigan Avenue does, which is the great shopping street, right? The Madison Avenue of Chicago. And so is this engine of commerce, and I was told it's 60% down. It's having real world impacts. And it's not that everybody there is, you know, illegal.

It's that they could be mistaken for such. and they don't want to get they don't want to be seen at all within you know 100 yards of a federal officer even if they're born and raised in the United States I was in um I was in this barbershop I talked to somebody in the barbershop and they looked at me very suspicious and finally they buzzed me in because I looked like this they had no idea I've always been mistaken for a narc you do give off narc vibes you do give up narc vibes if you were at a if you were at a jam band show I don't think I'd be seeing if you wanted any drugs. It's true.

It was actually a liability as a reporter, too. People that mean, he's too, straight arrow. They wouldn't leak. But in there was a guy getting his haircut, and he grew up there. He still lives there. He went into the Army, came out, got an MBA, and he owns a business. He did not want to go on camera. But he told me what people were feeling and how scared people were,

and that the whole life of that part of Chicago is. different now. And that's, I once again say, immigration isn't the entire point. It's what permits him to use force in a way that, A, isn't necessary. You don't need the military in these cities. And the manner in which they're rounding people up, tearing mothers from their children, tackling working men in their streets in the streets, isn't just, let's get people who are here unlawfully out. They're arresting people at the courthouses, right? We're trying to get their papers correct. It's to send a message that we have the force and anyone who gets in the way can be subject to it. I'm convinced to that, which is why Chicago feels decisive to me.

I guess the potential argument for it not being decisive is listening to what the president said on 60 minutes about these ICE raids. He was asked by Nora O'Donnell about this kind of feeling that people have that you're describing that some of these raids have gone too far. He says the opposite. No. I think they're planning on escalating this, moving into other cities and becoming more aggressive, not less when it comes to immigration enforcement. I'm wondering what your thoughts were on that. I think we all see that coming.

We all see the increasing expansion of his authority through force, not consent, as much as he can get away with. And even if the Supreme Court finds a pair, or excuse me, that's not quite right, but even if the Supreme Court finds a backbone. We can do that. That's fine. That's okay on the Bullwark podcast. I don't know what the rules are on Terry Moran's up. If they find a backbone even, there is the high likelihood that he will find a way to say, you know, just as President Jackson or some such did, I'm not going to abide by that. And then it really does. present the problem. You know, you're a nice suburban or Chicago woman with your whistle outside the

school, and he's the federal government with the Army. You're not going to be able to stop that. And that will be the question before each and every one of us. We will know. Look, he can put a fig leaf over it now. I actually thought what the New York Times did, the 12-step program for deciding whether or not a person is an authoritarian and he checks all the boxes, it won't be persuasive to people until they actually see basically martial law. You talked to in Chicago who did change, who said that like, man, this is worse than I expected or, you know, that's another thing that's hard for me to kind of grasp is people that are already liberal or upset about it, people who already are conservative saying, wow, it's not as bad

as it looks kind of thing. Yeah, I mean, look, there are people who say, I talked to a couple, actually, this is my favorite interview in some ways. We just stopped a couple on the street outside that Tribune building. What do you think? And then we aren't, you don't want to talk to us because we're a mixed marriage. We disagree on it. I was like, oh, oh, then I definitely want to talk to you. And she was very against it. And he was for it, although her, I was kind of playing therapist. I said, well, look, he sounds reasonable. And then I said, well, look, she's got this best point, which is that this can't be really who we are the way it's going about. Is this

what you hoped for. And he was like, yeah, that's, you know, that does make me feel bad, but we got to get on top of the problem. Once again, kind of pragmatic, he sees it still as part of the solution, but he understands he's not there yet. It's not there yet. Back to the 60 Minutes, again, as mentioned, this is a big change for you. You know, back then, it was your job, your interview on the vice president 20 years ago.

The 60 Minutes interview came, I think, with a cloud around it. Like the idea that they had submitted his extortion when it comes to paying him off over the ridiculous frivolous lawsuit, then they get rewarded, you would say, I guess, with an interview with the president. What would you make of the interview? I was kind of disappointed. You can't win for losing with Trump. Look, I interviewed him in April. He's a tough interview. Everybody knows that.

He's going to spew whatever comes into his mind to try to get you off your topic. He got pissed at you, though. He did get very angry at me. Yes, indeed. Which I kind of almost didn't notice in the moment. I was having a good time. Really? Genuinely, I thought it was a good interview.

I was respectful, which was very important to me. I didn't want to get in a fight with him because he wins those. But I thought it was important from to answer some questions. So he didn't win those. I'm sorry to interrupt. But just like the crux of your interview, like the main part of the interview, if people don't remember was this question about Kilmargo-Gargo-Garge Garcia

and at the time and how he had the tattoos on his fingers, but those were fake, and you just wouldn't let it go. You're like, no, this is fake. What you're saying is, like, it's one thing that have a different of opinion or for you to spin your view about how things are happening, but you are saying something that is fake, and I'm not going to just sit here and move on. And that happens several times in the 60 Minutes interview where they just moved on, right? So, you know, whether it was on the 2020 election or variety of things where Trump just

said things that were just blatantly false and they just moved on. Yeah, and I think that's the thing you must do, right? You can't relitigate the 2020 election or whatever. Inflation is actually up, not down, or whatever. But you have to pick a spot and communicate to the audience. And just for the principle of it, you have to stand up for what actually, factually is true. And he hates that. He wants to invent a reality where he is king of the world.

And I do think it is a hard thing to do because it gets angry at it. You don't want to fight with him, which I think is a big mistake, kind of get in there and yell at them. With respect, you have to say, no, actually, the moon is not made of cheese. The grass is green. The sky is blue. And just because you say it, otherwise, doesn't make it so. And you don't have to be a jerk about it, but you have to stand up for it. Otherwise, what's the point? And Nora O'Donnell, I know Nora 20 plus years now. I know her as a great journalist. Somebody's very tough. We've all seen her. She's moderated debate. She can be very persistent and very tough. She wasn't.

You know, again, you can do theater criticism on all of that. And, you know, there's value and less value to it, I guess. But for me, the thing that stands out is she didn't challenge him on the extortion. And this is oppression of media. And to me, it's like if you are at 60 minutes and you're going to take that interview after you had, you know, settled with him over an absurdly bogus lawsuit, like something that's not even close to the line. to not challenge him on that, like to not bring it up and or to not deal with it. It's crazy to me. Like he brought it up randomly and then she just kind of let it go. Like where after he, you know, sort of belittled CBS and said that they had been fake news. I love the way you think because that's a good producer. That's a good American, but it's also a good producer because that's what people want to know about. Are you an honest broker?

here or are you bending the knee? And also was that a legitimate thing for him to do? I guarantee I know how these things go. I know how that went, you know, I've interviewed, you know, a couple presidents and the rest of it. The bigwigs are always in the room. They're always in the room. The best thing to do is kind of get out of the office with a couple of your pals and prepare the interview. Yeah. But then at some point to say, we're going to have a big meeting about the interview. And there's the vice president. There's people from Disney. There's all this. And they're in the interview, they're weighing in, okay? That's the way it was.

And I guarantee that's the way it is. Barry Weiss undoubtedly was involved in the prep here. But what you just said is it's a better interview and it's harder to do and it's harder for him to answer. If you put that on the table, hey, you went after 60 minutes. Yeah, you know, parent company paid you $16 million, whatever. But really, you won. How is it? How are you harmed?

at all by what happened. You know, anything like that, that would have been a live wire of a moment that would have been absolutely forbidden by the powers that be at CBS. Yeah. You mentioned the Disney thing. I have to ask you to sort of curiosity. You have any takes on the Disney? I can't watch ABC right now on YouTube TV. There's like a corporate feud going on. Maybe you just check out of that because you trigger and you don't hear any news. But you have any thoughts on what's happening? It's crazy. The only thoughts I have is my in-laws were here for Halloween. So they see the kids go out. out, you know, and all the rest of it. And my father-in-law spent 20 years teaching law at the University of Oklahoma. So he wanted to see Oklahoma, Tennessee, which was on ABC. He couldn't

believe it. He's like, what's going on? I said that there's a big fight. That's way above anything I ever understood. I will say this, though, after having been fired, you know, by ultimately, Disney apparently made that decision. My wife and I made our own decision. We are not going to stop loving Disney World or Disney movies or the we I mean it's great so and I made I made sure in the severance that I'm a Disney lifer which means we get the discounts in the parks and such still so that's a good bargain well congrats on that that's good it's important to be the better man you can't let the kids suffer over it you know you can't blame walt all right anything else in the other deep thought it's been a couple months like I talked to you was right after this has

all happened you have any updated perspective on it as after a couple of months away from the I do. Look, it's harder than I thought. I mean, it's like really hard, but it's also without question. Without, I mean, it's obvious. It's tomorrow. And as I felt like I, like Dorothy, I'm walking out a black and white into color, out of yesterday into tomorrow. And I think as somebody who's in his mid-60s, I think that's a gift and a blessing. Now, yeah, I have to do it, right but what a great thing to still be connected into the next chapter of the media in the country and I'm very very happy I look at at my friends and colleagues at ABC I've got nothing bad to say about them they do great work still I had a great career there but it feels to me almost

like they're what birds in a cage or something like feels depressing must be how I feel and I get a PR email from somebody who's working at a PR firm and I'm like there but for the grace of God go high pitching this garbage god love you everyone's got to make a living you know that's it that's it it's nice to be um independent and saying what you think um tarry man let's stay in touch man um real patriotism is a substack everybody to go check it out and uh we'll be talking to you again soon all right right thanks tim everybody else check out our live stream for election night tonight me sarah and jviel around 915 and we'll be back tomorrow for another edition of the podcast see you all then peace me of a Sunday back home in old Kentucky with the church choirs just belting to the pines and i love you like the

mountains loves the way the morning opens too soft and bright greeting from the sun So if it'd make you stay I wouldn't act so angry all the time I wouldn't keep it all inside And I'd let you know How much I loved you every day So darling will you stay right here Shake this frost off of my bone

Well, I used to ride a Mustang, And I'd run that thing on high hoax till they raise the price of a Mustang, and I'd run that thing on high hoes To they raise the price of dreams so high I could pay So I'll let that car just sit there When I should have took you driving Windows down while the music play So if it make you stay I wouldn't act so angry all the time

I wouldn't keep it all inside and I'd let you know how much I loved you every day So darling will you stay right here Shake this frost off of my bones Donway, stay right here and shake this frost off of my bones. The Borg podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.