The Bulwark Podcast - Anne Applebaum and Jacob Frey: Using Lies to Justify Violence

Episode Date: January 9, 2026

Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey says ICE descended on his city with hopes of rounding up undocumented Somalis. When agents couldn't find any, they started driving around terrorizing people. And now with the killing of Renee Good, they are clearly making the city less safe. But federal officials are also lying about Good's actions before the shooting and her character—and with their bold claims of absolute immunity for ICE agents. More broadly, the administration is trying to intimidate ordinary citizens from documenting the masked agents deployed around the country. Plus, Trump is acting like a conqueror from the Middle Ages when he claims a right to Venezuela's oil, Putin is trying to mask the weakness of Russia's economy, Europeans are back to being anxious over Greenland, and Iranians are taking to the streets again.Anne Applebaum and Mayor Jacob Frey join Tim Miller for the weekend pod.show notes Tim’s ‘Bulwark Take ‘on the new footage from Minneapolis Anne's latest pod episode about how federal agents are violating the rights of Americans Anne's latest piece on Venezuela Tim's interview with George Retes Tim's playlist Anne’s “book club” recommendations: The Captive Mind The Oppermanns The Director The Choice of Comrades What We Can Know

Hey, everybody. After I taped both these interviews this morning, there was a release of video footage, new video footage from the ICE agent that shot and killed Renee Good from his perspective. And I taped a extensive second by second breakdown of that, which you can find over on the board, takes feed on your audio platform of choice or on YouTube or substack. For me, it more than confirms everything that we discussed on this show that I've discussed last year. days and it shows somebody that was the one piece of information we learned is that Renee Good had greeted him pleasantly and said, I'm not mad, like 20 seconds before he shoots her. It's an unbelievable piece of footage. Just one note in that video, you know, so I'm moving very fast. I called it body cam footage. We later learned it was from his cell phone, which he's carrying in his left hand, always firing off three bullets with his right hand, which needless to say is not

S-O-P for an agent of the state. So go over there to check out more on that. Appreciate very much our guest today and all of you. We'll see you back here next week. Up next, Mayor Jacob Fry. Welcome to the Bullard podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We have a double header for you today.

In the second segment, it's our friend, Ann Applebaum, with an autocracy update, both at home and abroad. Look forward to getting to that. But first, we wanted to add the perspective from somebody who can talk to us directly about what's happening on the ground in Minneapolis. And so I'm excited to welcome to the show, the mayor of Minneapolis, Jacob Fry. Thanks for being with us. Thanks for having me.

Happy to do it. Unfortunately, the circumstances. I want to start just by talking narrowly about the shooting of Renee Good and kind of what we know at this point. One of the things I think has been getting lost in the discussion a little bit. I'm curious your perspective on is like, what were the ice agents doing in the neighborhood at all? Like what was happening in that neighborhood in Minneapolis when the shooting occurred? I don't think the ice agents know what the ice agents are doing in general. They seem to be rolling around neighborhoods without a clear agenda other than to terrorize people.

And this stems back from some of the original direction that was given when I believe they went into Minneapolis. And granted, some of this is speculation, but I think I'm right. I think that somebody from pretty high up told them go to Minneapolis, find a bunch of Somalis to deport. And then they get here looking for the big meatpacking plant or factory where they can find a bunch of undocumented Somalis. Only thing is it doesn't exist because they're Americans, they're American citizens. And when they figured out that they couldn't do the thing legally or constitutionally that they wanted to do, they just started rolling around the city terrorizing people. And granted, you know, it's winter, it's Minneapolis.

And we got ice and snow and they suck at driving in it. And so I don't know exactly what they were doing on this particular block at this particular time, but it clearly wasn't productive. And that's truly crazy. You know, and they pitched this all as they're going after the worst of the worst. They're going after these drug dealers and these criminals. And is that even a neighborhood with a lot of immigrants? Like going door to door of neighborhood with our taxpayer dollars with masked thugs,

It doesn't seem to be an efficient use of anybody's. Yeah, I don't know as much going door to door is what we've been seeing. But what is clear is they don't know exactly what they are doing. And by the way, you mentioned criminals and murderers. We're anti-murterers here. We are anti-crime. We have worked extensively with federal agencies to investigate murders to drive down shootings. We've worked with the U.S. Attorney's Office, the DEA, the ATF, the FBI to successfully drive down crime on, for instance, the north side of Minneapolis.

We've seen, like, the lowest level of shootings on record there. And so we're willing to work on that stuff. That's not what this is about, though, clearly. I mean, when you were bringing up border control to Minneapolis and, you know, we're kind of close to the border of Canada, but we're not close to. to the border that they're normally patrolling, you know something's off. The incident itself, I mean, obviously, everybody's now watched at a million angles, and it's just horrifying. And, you know, you talked about one thing about being against murder or against death.

Didn't want Renee good to die. Like, and it was totally unnecessary. It's unnecessary for them to be there, like, regardless of whether you go through the frame by frame. I don't know how productive that is at this point, because there's no reason for them to have been there, and there's no reason for her to be dead today and for a kid to be orphaned. Right. The one thing, though, that I saw this morning, though, is just grotesque. and I kind of hate that we live in this world.

You have to watch these videos now, but I'm sure you have access to all this. It's the video of then after they go up to her car when she's bleeding out, I don't know exactly what happened, but she's still moving, right? And they go a long period of time where they don't allow a doctor that wants to help. Like, what's your sense of like what happened in the aftermath there? So I haven't seen all of these videos. I mean, the number of times that I've had to watch some of them again and again

is traumatizing it in itself. But here's the thing. when you are a law enforcement officer, the most basic thing that you're supposed to do is that when somebody is in pain and especially dying, you help. Even if you're the one that caused that pain from the beginning. Look, there are certainly situations around the country and in Minneapolis where an officer used justified force, had to hurt somebody. and then the next step is you immediately go and try to save their lives. You know, first of all, this wasn't justified. And second of all, they didn't help and they wouldn't let a doctor in.

I mean, there are so many facts about this that make the whole thing completely appalling. And when you listen to Pam Bondi or Christy Gnome, I mean, talk about this, you hear the words that are coming out of her mouth. You start to think, she doesn't believe a single thing that she's saying. You can tell when somebody is talking and their lips are moving. It's almost like the Teddy Ruckspin deal where like, I don't think she believes the things that she's saying. And the whole thing is appalling. And now, you know, they're moving on to this investigation. And that seems illegitimate in of itself as well.

So speaking of that investigation, have you spoken to anyone from DHS or the White House leaders, of any of them called you to try to work together on this? They have not called me as far as I'm aware. You know, certainly we're using every single channel that we can possibly use to get ice out of here. The first goal that we've got right now is safety. We are trying to keep people safe in this city. The second goal is we're trying to get ice out of here because they've got somewhere in the range of 2,270 some odd agents and officers that have been deployed to the region. That's so drastically outnumbers the amount of police that we've got.

And to say that it is concerning is completely underestimating the issue. And that's pretty crazy. An ICE official killed a citizen in Minnesota and Christy Noem hasn't called you. I'm just generally speaking, usually local political officials would work with federal officials. If one of their agents did something like this. The city of Minneapolis has worked extensively with Democrat and Republican administrations. You know, 20 or so years ago, there was a 35 Delbia Bridge that went down. And George Delbya Bush came out.

By the way, I don't think he was wildly popular or anything in Minneapolis. Definitely not by then. Yeah. But he came out. He helped. They gave money. They assisted with the recovery to make sure that it was done expediently. It was like the politics literally stopped at the water's edge where that bridge was going over the river.

and people say, you know, we're going to work together. The shocking thing is that isn't happening here. And this is a case, unlike the 35W bridge, where this was a federal agency that did the killing. By the way, you know, their stated reason for coming in here is safety. Thus far, this year in Minneapolis, there have been two shootings. Two. one of them was ice. So literally 50% of these gunshots that have been fired in Minneapolis have been ice.

We are a safe city. Crime is down dramatically. They are driving it up. You mentioned the investigation. So is it legitimate. I'll talk about that a little bit more. I want to play yesterday, the vice president, talking about whether you all should be involved in the investigation of what happened. You have a federal law enforcement official engaging in federal law.

enforcement action, that's a federal issue. That guy is protected by absolute immunity. He was doing his job. The idea that Tim Walsh and a bunch of radicals in Minneapolis are going to go after and make this guy's life miserable because he was doing the job that he was asked to do is preposterous. He says that the cop that shot Renee Good has absolute immunity and that allowing you guys to be involved in the investigation is preposterous. What do you think about that? I thought that I had a great deal of respect for Yale law grads, and I hope I still do in some cases. But that is bizarre. They don't have absolute immunity any more than city officials have absolute immunity. They have qualified immunity. That qualification necessitates that you're doing your job and doing

what you're supposed to be doing under those circumstances. And I would hope that part of what these agents are supposed to do is not kill people and de-escalate tense situations. This was the furthest thing from that, you know? And so, look, I'm not going to get into the frame by frame of what happened, but there's a few things that are clear to me. One, Renee was not, well, did not run somebody over. Nobody got ran over here. Trump said they got run over. That's not true. Second, they're calling her domestic terrorist. That is disgusting and not true. Third, they're saying he was operating exclusively, the ice agent was operating exclusively in self-defense and was like so badly injured. I'm watching the guy on a video, walk away with a hop in his step

like he's about to go run the 400 hurdles. And then, you know, they say that he heard his hip. That's, I think you heard his hip or something. I mean, I've seen bigger hip injuries closing refrigeration. door's, that just, it's just not real. Look, I don't know every in and out of what this investigation could reveal if it were done transparently. What I do know is that they're not off to a very good start. The BCA, which is the state agencies, the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension here. They have great expertise, sadly, having done a lot of this work before. They have investigated police shootings. They have come to a conclusions, both of culpability and a lack thereof. There are more than a few activists here in Minneapolis that would say never give it to the BCA, they'll never find,

you know, guilt on the side of the cop. They won't investigate it in that way. But here's the thing. They do do it legitimately. It's mainly it. It's like police officers. These are law enforcement experts. That's what we're asking for. And they're getting blocked out. They're getting blocked out. They're getting blocked out. They are getting blocked out in a way that they're not getting access to the materials, not getting full access to the investigation itself. And that just makes it feel like a cover-up, even if it's not, that makes it feel like a cover-up. Why not include them? The BCA has investigated other issues before. Where was a federal agent or a federal entity that was involved in some form of officer-involved shooting? All right. If you've ever been overwhelmed by the

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I got the ball on from my phone. And one thing I'm starting to do, this is not really about me. I don't want to pretend. Like, okay, I'm doing the best I can. I'd like to keep up with my daughter's French. She's learning French. But a useful thing I found for the app as having. a joint play with her at dinner.

Because you want to give the kid something on the phone that's not Italian brain rot. Italian brain rot, really don't know, is not learning Italian. It is. The brain rot is the operative phrase, not the Italian. And on a whim, I handed over the Babel app.

We started messing around with the French a little bit. And that's fun. It's useful. You know, so we're both learning at the same time. And as we said, I'm not trying to become fluent in French here. It's not like the Frenchies would ever accept my accent anyway. We're just trying to learn enough to communicate.

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either to get involved in the investigation and then going forward with ICE, just first on the investigation. Can you sue? What can the city do, if anything, at this point? Yeah, we're still going through that. I don't want to jump the gun. Okay.

But yeah, I think we've got a number of opportunities that we can move forward with, hopefully in the very near future, including judicial legal action. I wish to talk about what other, you know, kind of what local law enforcement can do and what you can do as political leaders in the city because this is something that I don't, you know, I don't exactly know what rules govern all this stuff. But you talk about how, at this point, ICE is making the city less safe. and we've seen a ton of videos, not just the shooting of Burnay Good, but others of ICE agents bullying and menacing people who are following the law, who are citizens. Can Minneapolis or police offer any protection for citizens against excessive force if they witness this kind of thing? And obviously we're not trying to escalate a inter-law enforcement battle here, but are the things that you guys can do to protect citizens from their infringement? Yeah, there are. And let me give some credit to our police officers because they are exhausted.

They are working tirelessly. They're getting all kinds of calls. My friend, my family member is being kidnapped. There's an illegitimate use of force taking place. Not to mention, they've just got the regular day-to-day stuff that happens when ICE isn't here that they need to deal with. And we have fewer officers per capita than we need. And so they're doing a great job, but they're tired. They're being put in the middle of these horribly tense situations.

And it's not like they go home to Missouri or Atlanta or Nebraska or some other state after this. They're here. Like these are people that are charged with keeping people safe in Minneapolis, not just for the few weeks during this ice occupation, but for the long haul. And so, yeah, it's deeply concerning that they're getting put in the middle of it. And at times, they're even getting blamed for things that they didn't do. We have worked so hard to generate trust between officers and community members over these last several years since George Floyd was murdered here. And we've made huge strides. I mean, community members, some of the most intense activists that did not like cops very much, probably still don't are saying that our officers are doing the right thing.

But I think the question that you're getting to, which I'm not. have not wholly answered yet is like, you're basically asking, can our cops arrest them? Yeah. From a legal perspective, yes. From a practical perspective to state the reality, yeah, it does get kind of hard when they drastically outnumber us and they have bigger guns than we do. And here's the thing, we don't want to create warfare in the street. We want to keep our communities safe.

We're trying our very best to do that. So nobody, our police officers, ice agents, civilians, nobody can act illegally. Nobody can. And so we're trying to find the best way to prevent these ice agents from acting illegally while not causing a firestorm on the street. Am I saying it won't happen? No, I'm not saying it won't happen. What I'm saying is like, you know, I am in charge of keeping the peace and directing our

police officers and I got to keep everybody safe. And so I can't commit to anything. It's crazy that you're even there, right? I can't commit one way or another to deal with how, you know, how our law enforcement officials should deal with rogue federal law enforcement. And it's like, these are the guys that don't tread on me guys. And they have federal agents coming into your city, menacing your citizens who aren't doing anything illegally. And you've got a separation of powers discussions in the mayor's office. It's crazy.

The bottom line is we are working on every strategy that is available to protect our residents. where illegality is taking place where people are being mistreated and hurt, our officers are going to be there to help the best they can to keep people safe. Now, what that action looks like obviously depends on the situation. Again, the goal that they're trying to get to is they've got to keep people safe. You know, anybody can get arrested. Anybody. The other pushbacks come from citizens.

I see a lot of students out there protesting overwhelmingly. peaceful. But, you know, this is important as you talk about keeping the peace now. We saw some unpeaceful protests after George Floyd. Again, I want to go back to the vice president yesterday. And I want to play just for you a clip of the vice president talking about the protesters in your community that are pushing back and speaking out against ICE officials. This is classic terrorism. And we cannot say that when a far left fringe is inciting violence against our brave law enforcement officials that we're no longer going to enforce the law. That's rewarding the very people who are engaged in this garbage.

The actual reward that they just got is a new assistant attorney general who is going to prosecute and investigate this stuff. I mean, I'm at a loss for words on what this guy says. I mean, look, as a mayor, I'm in the reality business. I deal in reality. As mayor, we have had to at times push back against excessive. extremism in our city coming from both sides. I myself have gotten death threats from both the far right and the far left. And we got to call a spade of spade also when we're seeing completely unconstitutional

activity take place. And that's what we're seeing under this administration. And so the notion, though, that like this is some, it is, it is fringy to document. It is fringy to videotape what is happening, that's a fringy position to have. You know, I mean, our officers, unlike theirs, have body cameras. And by the way, they turn them on both for the sake of transparency in the general public. They also turn them on for themselves because they want to be safe. They also show their faces. They show their faces. They're not afraid of doing something horrible that they might be held accountable for because they aren't going to do that horrible thing. these federal agents are not held to the same standards that we are.

And the whole thing is, by the way, kind of wildly ironic, right? Because it's the Minneapolis police that in the past have been the ones that, you know, have had sort of a federal consent decree that has been pushed, that we have all been pushing to carry out. Meanwhile, you've got the federal government that's doing this kind of garbage right now. And so, no, they're not holding themselves to the same standard at all. You're here for people to the community. And it's got to be hard for people to tamp down their rage when it's like they're being lectured to. And you have the vice president like tutting and wagging his finger at you and saying you've got to, you know, calm down and behave while he's calling you terrorists.

Yeah. I get it. And there's a greater good here. And I'm so proud, by the way, of so many people throughout our city that have united around, yes, getting justice. Yes, First Amendment speech. yes, peaceful protest, and also, importantly, not taking the bait. We stand by our immigrant neighbors. We will say it till we're blue in the face. And one of the ways that we need to stand by them is not giving this federal administration an excuse to come in here with a greater occupying force.

And so I have seen activists themselves de-escalate a situation with other activists. I've seen people pull other people back, say, hey, don't do that, that's not who we are, we care about our immigrant community. And this could ultimately hurt them. And so, you know, I'm hopeful that that is going to continue right now. But, you know, thus far, in many instances, yeah, I'm proud that things have not escalated to that point. Have you seen other residual impacts in the city, like schools, businesses, not willing to open, you know, economic issues because of the fear? What I'll say is multiple truths here. First, the first truth is that this like apocalyptic hellscape that the far right is trying to paint on Minneapolis is just bullshit. It is just garbage.

It's not true. You know what I mean? I walked out of, you know, my apartment this morning and I bought a raspberry white chocolate scone. I mean, that is emblematic of not an apocalyptic hellscape, a freaking scone, you know. And I got a cup of cross. Frosted scone. Yeah. Yeah, it's delicious.

It was warmed up. in like a toaster, and I gave it to my daughter. We went to daycare. I dropped both my two daughters off at daycare, and we drove into work. That is a truth. It is also a truth that when I go into some of these coffee shops, people oftentimes in the back of the house come out in tears and are terrified. And obviously they're, they want help. They need help. They're grateful for a city that is very much standing behind them. And they are worried for themselves, for their family members. By the way, not because they're undocumented necessarily, but because they're Latino or because they're Somali. Right. And that fear is very real. And it's palpable. And so both of these things

are true. Minneapolis, as I said, is very safe. I just said a minute ago. 50% of the shootings that have happened this year so far have been ice. In other words, ice is awful, one, and two, we don't have many shootings right now. That's a big city. There's many truths that are there, and I want to make sure that everybody sees this. By the way, by the way, a message to musicians and large acts and performances and plays and comedians and everything else that are looking to come to Minneapolis, come to Minneapolis. Like, we want you here. It is safe.

Do not let Donald Trump screw the city over that he wants to see fail. Come here and perform and then speak out during that performance about what's going on. I appreciate that message. I saw nothing against anybody. I just saw John Mulaney canceled a thing this weekend. I mean, look, I understand the sentiment. And it comes from a good place. You know what I mean?

Everybody's trying to do the right thing. here and God bless, I've screwed up things that I've said 100 times over. I'm sure I've agreed up some stuff on this interview, you know. I am also certain that there's different perspectives out there in the city from mine. My perspective is, we want you here. We got to keep the city rolling. There's a lot of people, immigrants included, that will work at that show and need to work at that show to feed their families. All right.

I want to let you get back to work, but I would be remiss if I didn't just ask you briefly about this fraud scandal. that has been kind of consuming the news around Minnesota. I sort of put it this way. Like, I take a back seat to no one, maybe to you, about my anger and rage, like the racism targeting the Somali community from Republicans. I get it. It's outrageous. It's vile.

It's sick. I do get a little bit frustrated sometimes with Democrats because, like, I hear, like, a lot of anger targeted at that and, like, a little bit more muted anger targeted at the fraudsters that really screwed over a lot of people in your city. And so I just kind of wanted to hear you're. reaction to that and how you think the fraud should be addressed and how politicians should be talking about it? In this case and in all cases, we should be telling the truth with a full-throated response. The fraud is real and is devastating. We have people in Minnesota and beyond that have

stolen money that should have gone to feed kids, that should have gone to housing stable. that should have gone to daycare. And for those that stole money, they should get charged, prosecuted, arrested, and put in jail, period. We should be angry about that because that also is crazy and should not happen. We in Minnesota have a sense of helping people out. We have a sense of creating a social safety net. And when people take advantage of that social safety net, they should be held accountable, period. That shouldn't be a one. wild position to have. Here's another truth. They should be held accountable as individuals. They should be held accountable as individuals. You should rise based on your own success and talent.

You should fall based on your own flaws and massive screw-ups and crimes. Whole communities, however, should not be held accountable. You do not hold the whole Somali community accountable for the actions of the fraudsters. You do not hold the whole Jewish community accountable when Bernie Madoff goes to jail. You know, you hold those people accountable every step of way. That's how the system works in America. None of this should be a controversial position, you know. And so it should be full-throated.

And, you know, we've just got to go in very clear. I'd like, I mean, and this has got to be a message again. My message to Republicans right now, who are. watching what is happening in Minneapolis with these ice raids is, look, aren't you guys are supposed to be like the party that cares deeply about the founding fathers and the constitution and these core values that hold us together as Americans. What is happening in Minneapolis, perpetrated by ICE, is the furthest thing from those constitutional values. The court and judicial decisions that have been built up over time, they're violating that. And so if you care about

the endurance of our republic and you care about America, you got to step up right now. Similarly, yeah, as we as Democrats also got to call a spade a spade. Guys, crime's bad. Fraud's bad. Fraud's bad. Fraud takes place. There should be accountability for it. Let's not push it under the run. Last thing, I just don't want to lose focus on the victim of this killing. Have you had a chance to talk to anyone from Renegood's family or do you have anything to say about the victim and her life? We're all devastated, but the people that are feeling this particularly acutely right now is our family and her friends. My love is with them. We have reached out, made ourselves available.

I'm not the one that should be talking about the incredible person that she was. I will leave that to the people that know her and can do it authentically. Everything that I've heard about her is incredible. You know, this is such an amazing person. I will leave that to the people that can speak with honesty. Mayor Frye, appreciate it very much. Appreciate you taking the time. Our thoughts are with you.

We're doing our best to send good vibes with there. If there's anything folks can do, you let us know, all right? Thank you so much, really with you guys. All right, thanks so much to Mayor Frye. Up next and Apple Mountain. All right, you know, in January, every sponsor provides, you know, this provides us little guidelines, what they want us to talk about for these ads.

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Give yourself the gift of a healthier unwind. Right now, Soul is offering my audience, 30% off your entire order. Go to getSoul.com and use the code the bulwark. That's getsole.com, promo code the bulwark for 30% off. She's a staff writer at the Atlantic. Season 3 of her podcast, Autocracy in America, is out this morning. The first episode examines how the transformation of ice into a mass and heavily armed paramilitary is reshaping our democracy. It's an apple balm, and that is a sad but timely topic to be releasing today.

So I appreciate you here on the pot. Thanks for having me. A bunch about autocracy abroad I want to get to with you today. But I guess given the topic of the podcast, we should start with what we saw in Minneapolis this week. We just spoke to Mayor Fry about his update from the ground, but want to hear more from your perspective on the ice killing in Minneapolis and how that integrates with what you're talking about on the podcast. This episode of the podcast, the point of the podcast is to pull together some things that

we've seen covered sporadically or unevenly or in different places and to make an argument that these are the combination of the transformation of ice, changes in culture and education and health, deregulation of crypto, all these things are designed to unlevel the playing field for the midterms later this year. That's the bigger argument. This particular first episode, which was not planned to come out the day after, a really horrific and shocking American tragedy, the theme of the episode was ICE and to a lesser extent the National Guard, which had been covered as a story about immigration. And my argument is that it's not just about immigration. It's about intimidation. It's about creating a paramilitary that feels itself to be above the law.

People who wear masks have only rudimentary training, drive unmarked cars. And as we saw in Minneapolis use guns freely and willingly as if they were fighting terrorists on the streets of America when in fact what they're fighting is 37-year-old women driving Hondas. But the point is that this was designed from the beginning as that. So it was about immigrants, but it was also about having a force that was loyal to Donald Trump that could be used in political ways. We don't know all of the political ways that it will be used. Towards the end of the series, some people are speculating.

And actually, some of the governor of Illinois said this. So it's not just some people. There's a fear that troops on the street are armed men, on the street during the midterms could frighten people away from voting. So there's, there are lots of ways in which this kind of force can be used. But what we just saw was, it was more than just a power play. And it was a shocking use of violence and then lies about the use of violence. And then the immediate extension of impunity to the person who'd used violence. So already you can see the administration creating a force for violence that's above,

somehow above the law and somehow protected by Donald Trump. That fear that Pritzker references in your podcast that, you know, there's concerns people to be afraid to vote. I mean, we do have anecdotal evidence that that, you know, not maybe at the ballot box, but in other ways of life that that's happening right now. I mean, I saw this in this community in New Orleans. I was hearing from people who, you know, said that they had employees that didn't want to show up to work even if they were documented or had their green cards because they didn't

want to be intimidated or because they're scared. You know, you see that rhetoric after the murder in Minneapolis, which was folks on the right and folks in this government saying, well, I think J.D. Vance said yesterday, you know, people should express their displeasure with our immigration policies at the ballot box if they want to. They shouldn't be showing up, you know, being in the neighborhoods where these law enforcement activities are, right? And so, like, they are intentionally trying to intimidate people to recede in various ways from the public square. I don't think it's a huge jump to. think that that might be part of the strategy around the elections either. No, no. I also heard a terrible story. I won't say who it was, but it was somebody who had moved to Washington and whose had come from a city in California where you have to drive everywhere and whose kids were very excited to be able to walk to school.

And this is a Hispanic family, a completely American, U.S. citizen family. And as soon as they got to water, the kids were excited for the first time they can walk to school, they can ride their bikes, and their parents, because these are teenagers, became worried that they shouldn't walk to school by themselves because ICE might pick them up. And that, to me, was a horrific story. I mean, if you're afraid that your U.S. citizen children can't walk down the streets and can't go to school, then we're already living in a different reality. So you're right that this has already begun to happen in some communities. I mean, not everybody feels it, but it's very possible that everybody will. And actually my podcast episode starts with a story of a guy called

George Redis, whose U.S. citizen was a veteran and who was arrested by ICE and put in prison for a few days, missed his daughter's birthday, and was never given a reason or an explanation. The Redis story is horrifying. I just talked to him, too. What a great guy. Somebody texted me the other day. I think it was yesterday. It's been also been so bleak this week. It's like, do you have any hope? I don't know if he was felt this way in your podcast. But in the interview I did, we'll put a link in the show notes. YouTube with him. He was very kind of cheery at the end. What happened to him was horrible. But, you know, he's somebody that, like, served in the military and has a kid and is a young guy.

And he was, and he was, you know, I basically said to him, I was like, you've got to hate America at this point, given how you were treated. And he was the opposite. And I don't know, there's something about that, about, like, the human ability to stand up to these horrors that's darkly optimistic, I guess. It's like optimism through light through darkness, but there's something to be said for that. Well, there are a lot of people fighting back. I mean, there were people protesting in Minneapolis, and there are people who are documenting ICE, and there are, you know, I'm really impressed with the Catholic Church in lots of places. I mean, you can feel these communities moving and doing things. And, you know, I'm impressed with Americans who do all that.

And so, and they're, you know, they're exactly, they're the source of, you know, they're the future of the country. America's involved in all this. we kind of want to do around the world of the various autocracies and our roles. I want to start with Venezuela. You wrote about this for the Atlantic this week and how Trump is trying to put in place a new global system. Before we get into the Monroe Doctrine side of this, I'm just curious what your sense is at the state of play in Venezuela. Trump said yesterday, last night, in an interview that he will be meeting with Machado next week,

the opposition leader in Venezuela and said it would be a great honor to accept the Nobel Peace Prize from her at some level it feels like a little bit too late to be siding with the opposition but maybe not I don't know what's your sense of what the state of play is in Venezuela I am in touch with people I'm in touch with somebody a couple of people in Caracas and and others to be clear the Venezuelans I know who were delighted that Maduro was gone and were really happy and the Trump press conference on that same day in which he kind of dissed Machado and he said she's a very nice lady, but nobody respects her, was truly horrifying to them. We were just talking about people who inspire you. The Venezuelan opposition, particularly over the last two or three years, fighting against enormous odds, carried out this incredible election campaign. Machado herself wasn't running because she was forbidden for running,

but Edmondo Gonzalez, who was a former Venezuelan diplomat, did run. They got people all over the country involved. And not only that, they got people involved in monitoring and counting the votes, so they were able to prove that they'd won. They won something like they got two-thirds of the vote. So this is a very deep, very big, very grassroots opposition. This is not a bunch of elites or a bunch of rich people or a bunch of outsiders. Machado represents a very large part of the country, and she has enormous respect. She is widely admired among all kinds of people, all kinds of demographics and all parts of the country. And so the people were horrified by that. People were also horrified by the initial impression is that Trump intends for the country to be

run by the Maduro regime, which is still in place and its own paramilitaries and its own police force are still in place and somehow intends to monitor it from the outside through blockades, somehow controlling oil revenue. And it's very unclear how that's, going to happen and how that's going to work and what it's going to mean for ordinary Venezuelans. And, you know, the people I talk to go kind of way up and down, you know, like one day, maybe it's going to be all right. You know, maybe this is a transition phase and eventually we'll have our own legitimate leaders and then they seem more, you know, a lot more worried. Very hard for me to tell you what direction this is going. It's not unprecedented for

the U.S. to be involved in some kind of leadership chain in Latin America, but the way this is happening and the language that Trump is using is totally unprecedented. I mean, he's talking about Venezuela very much as we're taking their oil. You know, the point of occupying Venezuela or blockading Venezuela is to take their natural resources for the purposes of Americans. So he sounds not just like a imperialist. I mean, he sounds like a kind of, I mean, you'd have to go back, you know, before the British Empire. I mean, it's a kind of rapacious, extortionate, we're just there for the oil kind of enterprise. Going back to like the Silk Road or something.

That's right. I mean, it's not even the Victorian British Empire, which did have an ideology and manifest destiny, but it's a, it's very, very brutal. And, you know, Venezuelans want change. And one person said to me, you know, I don't care who runs soil industry. I just want, you know, the country to move again. So they keep looking for the bright side. But he almost never talks about Venezuelans.

You know, he doesn't talk about then at all and what they would want. And he's never used the word democracy when he talks about them. I guess it's important for him to meet Machado, and I don't envy her having to go through that. And I am afraid there will be some horrific scene where she hands him the, I think it's a gold medal you get when you win the Nobel Prize. I mean, there might be some ugly thing that happens, which I don't want to watch. My colleague Stan posited that like even for Trump, that feels a little undignified to take somebody's medal. but I have to dissent with him on that. I don't know that there's anything that's too undignified for him.

I think you would take it. We'll see. It's a side story. One thing that struck me at reading your piece about this that I think is a little bit under discussed, right? Because, you know, all of this is hypothesizing, right? And it's, you know, figuring out what the potential outcomes are. There are a bunch of different ways that things could shake out when there's a change

in leadership like this. I was going to say it's not really regime change. you know one thing that i don't hear a ton of talking about is like will there be pushback from within venezuela that's something that you mentioned right and especially the way trump talks about this you know whether it's FARC or some other group there's honor and dignity and pride within Venezuela and it's like these guys aren't going to come steal our oil and and that is a i think a risk that you know is that we haven't seen so far though some Venezuelans died in our in our removal of meduro but

It does seem like a risk that these guys are totally, basically oblivious to or not talking about or just a wishcasting over. So there are armed groups inside Venezuela. There are some terrorist groups, I mean, mostly on the border coming from Colombia and elsewhere, but there also armed paramilitaries inside Venezuela who may or may not be happy with the new system, whatever that system turns out to be. there are Russian and Chinese and Iranian links in Venezuela. I mean, I know that the Trump administration said they would have to leave, but that's not how it works. I mean, they don't necessarily leave. And, you know, there's plenty of opportunity for people who don't like the new system, whatever that turns out to be, to push back against it. And that's, you know, stepping back, I mean, that's the broader danger of a policy that doesn't take into consideration the desires and, and of the people on the ground.

If America is just a brutal, regional bully and nothing else, then it will find it harder and harder to have allies. And people will, you know, they will organize against the U.S., or they will seek to thwart the U.S., or they may eventually use violence. I mean, I don't want to be too specific in predictions because it's just too early to say what this is going to be like. But if you look at the history of the world, that's what happens.

I mean, an action has a reaction. You know, the U.S. of the second half of the 20th century and the first, I don't know, 15 years of the 21st century was a country that did have an enormous amount of power, sometimes abused it, but very often sought to share it with others or to incorporate others or to build alliances and work together with partners, either with partner governments or partner organizations in other countries in order to achieve things. And this is an administration that doesn't seem interested in doing that at all. with anybody. I mean, not the Venezuela's will in opposition, not anyone. And so that means that some people will begin to say, well, is this in my interest? Maybe not. And that will, that will create a backlash eventually. Part of me kind of hates even assessing this at like a geopolitical, theoretical, theoretical level. And like taking them at the word that there's some doctrine here because it's, to me, this is, Trump is an emotional actor and he's like a toddler. And there's like a series of events that made him feel like this was the right thing to do to oppose Maduro, but, you know, I don't know that he has

some consistent viewpoint that he will, you know, employ throughout the region. But just for the sake of the discussion, like, if they are serious about the spheres of influence thing, right, where they want to take control of the region, this is what you kind of get to in the Atlantic. There are a lot of potential risks and ways that that could go bad. You know, and like this, this idea that this is a risk board and we can just divide the world up between China and Russia and the U.S. is silly. And other countries in the world have agency. And on top of that, it's kind of like, where does Europe fit into all of that?

It's so strange. And there's one of Trump's allies tweeted this earlier this week. Someone is getting Greenland one way or the other. It's going to be us or Russia or China. I know my choice. I'm like, well, wait, Europe already has Greenland. Why would it be Russia? Russia is a broke dick country.

Russia doesn't have the resources that Europe has. Russia's like tried to take over one European country and and as utterly botched it. Yeah, and a million people have died. Their whole worldview seems broken on this. It's deeply bizarre. I mean, first of all, you're right. So I don't think Trump himself has a strategy or has ever had a strategy. I think he has, he's somebody who wants to win whatever is the situation, you know,

whether it's a conversation with a journalist or with the president of Ukraine or with Maduro. You know, it's just all about winning and dominance and victory. In that minute, right? Like, yeah, he's very adaptable. In that minute. Yeah. Exactly. And the next minute, who cares?

You know, and he's fine to talk to Mundani, you know, and he's fine to do something else. He has no strategic view at all. You know, the Dunrow doctrine, I think, is something somebody else made up. By the way, the Monroe doctrine was about keeping European imperialist powers out of the Western hemisphere. You know, the original idea wasn't the version that Trump has come up with. But there are people around him who have strategies. and you hear them from time to time or you see echoes of what they think.

I mean, one version was in the National Security Strategy that was published before Christmas, which had the rudiments of the Senate. You know, the U.S. needs to dominate the Western Hemisphere, needs to take over all the important economic assets, and what happens to Europe and what happens in Asia is of less interest to us, and we're not really interested in talking about Russia and China as rivals anymore. That was the fundamental basis of that, of that, document. First of all, the origins of this idea that there should be three spheres in the world

is Russian. This was a kind of Russian geopolitical... Because they're the weakest of the spheres, that's not surprising. Partly because it's the justification for the Russian invasion of Ukraine and Georgia and so on, and also because it makes Russia, which is poorer by 10 times, the New European Union makes it look more important if it's sharing the world with American China. Actually, Russia is a client state of China, you know, not by any means. It's equal. It's crazy because that's not how it works. Russia isn't dominating Europe. And actually, you know, there are other players in Asia too, China, Japan, but also South Korea. There are many countries that don't want to become Chinese

colonies. And so it's a misunderstanding of how the world is going to work. And it's also a recipe for war. I mean, you know, if the U.S. sees itself as this primary goal is to extort resources from Latin America, then there will be struggle and conflict in Latin America as people object to it, as we just discussed. If Russia decides that its job is to dominate Europe, then there will be a war in Europe. If China wants to dominate Japan, there'll be a war with Japan. So this way of seeing the world that it's about big powers having dominance is an absolute recipe for violence and warfare. The whole point of the post-war world, of the UN Charter, of the myriad institutions that we're now dropping out of, was to have a different way of running the

world. You know, instead of big countries saying might makes right, give small countries agency, organize networks, organize alliances, even in areas like shipping law or, you know, airplane traffic, have ways of discussing things between nations where everybody gets a say and we get some kind of solution that's good for everyone. I mean, that was the basis of international politics for the last 70 years. And they seem very convinced that they can just discard all of it and that it will somehow be good for the U.S. losing European markets, you know, U.S. being cut off from Japan, U.S. isolated in the Western Hemisphere, U.S. losing, I mean, you can see how much the U.S. stands to lose just when you start to think about it.

I'm wondering whether, you know, the view from Europe is changing, evolving at all over the the past couple weeks, given what we've seen. And I've seen, you're in London now, your husband's a Polish minister. So you're not much deeper in that world than I am. You know, it's one thing to be bluster, you know, and talk with Donald Trump and then the talk going, right? And now, you know, with what's happened with Maduro, they've refocused on Greenland again. He's, you know, trash talking Colombia and Mexico. I'm just wondering if there's been kind of any updated POV from folks in Europe that makes things seem a little more alarming or whether this is what they've just been dealing with now for 10 years. It means funny. So I talked to a Danish journalist

just before talking to you who was asked me about where is this dramatic change coming from and so on. And I said to him, have you not been paying attention? Trump has been talking like this since 2015. You know, the Russians invaded Ukraine 2022. It's now 2026. All these trends were visible in the past. But it was actually the combination of Maduro and Greenland that has led to a new level of anxiety. I mean, actually, the French president said a couple of days ago, America might not be our ally anymore. You've heard the German chancellor say something similar in the last, you know, in recent days and weeks. He said it more than once, actually. And you, I am watching people, the word I would use is hedge. So people are beginning to look for hedges, rapidly looking for

replacements for U.S. systems, you know, rapidly talking about it doesn't happen much in public, but there are a lot of behind-the-scenes conversations about what do we do in the case of a U.S. invasion of Greenland, who responds and how? What does that mean for Ukraine going forward and so on? Where would those conversations even happen? I mean, it can't happen inside NATO, really, since we're not part of it. So, like, the EU, just EU security services? EU security services inside governments, you know, people are beginning to ask what alternative plans there are. There's another weird thing, which is that while all this is happening, the U.S. military and NATO country militaries remain as integrated as they ever were. And U.S. intelligence works closely with European intelligence in many areas.

You know, I don't know that there are military exercises going on right now, but I would not. be surprised if there were or if there were some that were scheduled for next month, and those will probably happen. So all of the stuff that allies do together, like on a sort of one level down from the politics, is still happening. And there are these deep relationships, as I said, between military, between strategy, between intelligence institutions and people all across what we call, would call the transatlantic alliance. All that still happens. And so I think that's part of what gives people this feeling of surreality. I mean, you know, we still like Americans. We work with them. You know, we trade with them. I mean, the Danes have all these huge companies that sell

weight loss drugs and shipping windmills, I think. And they have enormous trade relationships and lots of tourists. And so, you know, simultaneously while they hear this very aggressive stuff coming from the president and some of the people around him, they don't see it in reality. And that's, that's also part of the Kafkaesque atmosphere of the moment. What about specifically inside Ukraine? I mean, we've kind of this cyclical loop that we're in, really, with Trump's behavior with Ukraine, where he kind of sounds Russia-friendly for a minute,

then he hopes he gets a peace steal, and then Putin makes him mad for a second, and then Zelensky comes to visit. And, well, except for that one time, the rest of the time, he starts to be persuaded slightly, and, you know, it feels like we're going to be supportive. of Ukraine again and then the cycle starts over again, where Trump starts sounding. He's more mad at Zelensky and he starts giving Russian talking points. Did the events of the last week

change the calculus there at all, or is this, are we just still in this kind of unending loop of Trump playing footsie with Russia and then backing off? So the one thing that has happened this week that is important for Ukraine is that a piece of the negotiation is about so, you know, called security guarantees. I'm a little wary about all this anyway, kind of dubious. But part of the negotiation is that if the war were to end, Ukraine would need some kind of conviction that it wasn't going to start again the next day. So if people were to come back and if they're to rebuild the country and people are going to invest, then there has to be some security after the war. And so towards that end, actually the British and the French in the last few days have said

they would lend troops to Ukraine. And I don't know the full details. The United States, has made some noises about security guarantees. By threatening Denmark and by implying in some of his conversation that he's not sure which is more important owning Greenlander being in NATO, he suddenly makes this question of security guarantees seem absurd. I mean, of course, the United States can't be relied upon if it's about to attack Denmark. It undermines the project, you know,

even the project of Steve Whitkoff and Jared Kushner to create some reliable system. I mean, even that is being undermined by, by the things that Trump says. The main problem with the negotiations, as far as I can see, is that the Russians have never said that they want to end the war. Right. Not once.

Putin has never said the war is over. He has never said he wants a ceasefire. He's never talked about ending the war in public. And that makes me think that he doesn't want to end the war. And so you have the specter of the U.S. and Europe and Ukraine. coming to some kind of agreement that they're going to present to Putin and Putin will turn down. And maybe there's something that will happen that will change that. I mean, eventually it will change because I don't think Putin can fight this war forever.

He's losing 1,000 people every day, every day. Think about that. Think about the United States lost 60 to 65,000 people during Vietnam. And this was a national trauma that went on for decades. We made movies about it. We wrote songs about it. And it went on and on. And in Russia, they've lost a million people.

And they're losing the equivalent of Vietnam every two months. Wow. And so it cannot last indefinitely. And there is grumbling in the ranks that you can hear that bubbles up on telegram, and there's clearly some discontent in the elite, and people in Russia want the war to be over. And, of course, they're scared to talk about it too much. But it is not sustainable indefinitely. And I am still convinced that a hardline, you know, clear statement from the transatlantic

alliance and the rest of the democratic world would have ended this war already. Had the had the election of Trump been followed by that, it would be over. But Trump gave Putin the feeling that he could continue, you know, that there was there was something to be gained. But Ukrainians I talk to are kind of sanguine. They're like, okay, we're going to just keep fighting. And there was a huge missile attack that hit Western Ukraine yesterday. Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. The thing that was noteworthy about this because Russia's been consistently attacking Ukraine every day, it was that it was a hypersonic nuclear-capable missile. So it wasn't, like, it wasn't obviously a nuclear detonation,

but that was a nuclear capable missile. Why is that significant? Zonzky, Kiev was warning that that is a grave threat more so than some of these other attacks. I guess Putin had done, had used a missile such as this in 2024 and gave a rationale for it. Talk about how that might be a little bit different than what we've been saying. It's a way of saying next time I'll put warheads on it. I mean, that's what, that's how it's interpreted. The rationale he gave this time was that it was a response to the Ukrainians trying to bomb his residence, which is something that we know didn't happen. So he's created the fake excuse

that allows them to make this response, which is pretty par for the course. I mean, now we've all got used to politicians lying and using their lies to justify violence. And it's not, it's not just in our country. It's in other countries. It's possible that the Maduro capture also unnerved Putin. I mean, as I've written, you know, in a way, it enables the Russians and the Chinese to do whatever they want. If we can do whatever they want, they can do it, you know, they can too. But it's also true that Maduro was a Russian client. There were billions of dollars of Russian investment in Venezuela. The Russians sold a lot of weapons to Venezuela. They may be feelings, you know, particularly given what's going on in Iran and what happened in Syria, a year.

ago, they may be feeling that, you know, it's true that the war in Ukraine is sucked up all of their assets and all of their weapons and all of their ability. And they may be feeling, you know, Putin may be feeling some kind of insecurity. And maybe the missile was an expression of that too. I want to get to Iran. But just one more thing going back to Greenland for one second, because you said something that struck me about how Europeans' reaction to Trump, kind of implying that he wasn't sure was more valuable being in NATO or Greenland. They've truly been spitting in the face of our European allies, both Trump and Vance, and Vance in particular. And the condescending way in which Vance has been like tutting Denmark, you haven't been a good ally to us, young man.

I'm going to send you to the principal's office when like the Danes have fought our wars, like Danish soldiers have fought and died in American-led military actions, Afghanistan and other places. Because it is, it's truly insulting. And, you know, Europeans have dignity, too. And you can only, you know, kind of lecture somebody and wag your finger at them when you're the bad actor for so long, I would think, before they would have a negative reaction, a reaction to that. No, that's right. I mean, also, the other bizarre thing, you know, just to reinforce the point that this is not about anything real, the U.S. used to have more military assets on Greece. Greenland. And actually, at one point during the Cold War, we had nuclear weapons there. There's now one tiny base. I read recently it's 150 people. I don't have to check whether that's the case, but I know it's very small. And the U.S. has drawn down troops from there. So if this were, you know, and by the way, we have a security arrangement with Denmark that has allowed the U.S. to have troops there or military equipment there for decades. So if the U.S. thought Greenland was very important and thought it was an important military asset, there's nothing. stopping the U.S. from, you know, together with Denmark, you know, rebuilding, I don't know,

new bases on the island. Nor is it true that Denmark has not protected Greenland. I mean, Denmark pays for Greenland. Denmark has invested. I mean, this longer story. The worst part about the J.D. Vance, this kind of condescension is also just that it's based on lies. Right. You know, it creates a false reality. I mean, oh, the Danes aren't investing in Greenland. Well, actually, the U.S. could invest in Greenland and doesn't either. So it creates a fake world in which, you know, things that aren't true appear to be true. You know, nobody really likes to be lectured about anything, but it's particularly galling to be lectured when the person that is lecturing you is making shit up and is actually the bad actor, you know. Anyway, I want to move to Iran. Potentially some good news. I've been through this a lot in Iran, but I feel remiss having not covered it earlier this week. massive protests now for about the last 10 days across the country, biggest since 2022,

particularly if they've run security services out of some cities, including along the Iraq border, just wondering what you're kind of seeing there and hearing from folks who have expertise in Iran. So these are huge protests. I mean, you're right that it's not the first time and the Internet is now cut off there. And so there may be repression going on at a scale that we can't immediately see. I mean, there are a couple things that are new about these. I mean, one is that they come after the Israeli strikes on Iran a few months back, which killed some leaders of the Revolutionary Guard and gave a lot of Iranians some hope that that would lead to political change, but of course it didn't. There is also interesting role being played by the son of the late Shah, whose name is being chanted by some of the protesters and who is,

please don't take this as red, but it's some think that he may have some support inside the regime. There may be a part of the regime that wants him to come back and for there to be some kind of transition and for the Revolutionary Guard to stay in charge. What is his political bailants? He was living in Northern Virginia and has studied in the U.S. and is U.S. educated and has been an advocate for democracy and political change in Iran all of his life. who he's friends with now and what he's doing, I don't know. But his name is in the mix in a way that it wasn't before. And it seems to have some traction. And that's probably the most interesting thing

that's happening. It's a theme to watch over the next few weeks. We will keep watching that. It's one other element that is relevant with Iran is kind of the interplay with Israel, right? And I mean, you mentioned it like the Israel attacks in Iran preceded this. I mean, I think that you know, if you follow Israeli news, certainly, it doesn't seem like they're done. I think the BB told Donald Trump that it was a one and done, but I don't think that's how

Israel sees it. I'm wondering whether you think these protests, how it interacts potentially with kind of outside security. You know, I'm sure Iran is full of people saying this is inspired by Israel. I don't doubt that. Could Israel be there? I'm sure they are in some form. They obviously have some kind of assets inside Iran. But I don't think they're the primary cause. Iran has for many years been spending, you know, billions of dollars on Hezbollah, on Hamas, you know, on the hoodies. It spent billions of dollars on this nuclear program that we don't know how much of it was destroyed, but enough of it was destroyed that makes it look like it's pretty unviable. Meanwhile, people are short of food. They're short of medicine. They're short of in some places of water. You know, you see people on the streets in Iran right now who are genuinely desperate and angry at the regime for misspending their national wealth. And I think that's the most

important source of anger and frustration. Could there be other foreign spies? No doubt. But I don't think that's the main thing that's happening. Yeah, the Rial has lost more than 40% of its value since June, feeling soaring inflation. And that's as good reason as any to protest against the oppressive regime. Okay. We'll continue to monitor that. Last thing is, you know, we have an informal Ann Applebaum Book Club around here that people really get excited about. We've had the captive mine, the operman's, the director. You offered a poem last time, I think the choice. Is that right?

Do you read anything over the holidays? Do you have a chance or were you just doing eggnog and champagne? Have I already suggested what we can know, the Ian McEwen novel? I don't remember. Have we, Katie? I don't know. We'll add it. I didn't have that on my book.

list, but it's possible that you did. It sounds familiar now that you mentioned it. I'm behind. I guess I'm not fully up to speed on the Ann Applebaum Book Club because I got a lot happening. And occasionally I need a break from the Ann Applebaum's suggested books and need to do like gay coming of age novels, you know, which is one I just finished, for example, anyone's ghost. People are looking for that.

And so I'm a little behind. So it's possible you did suggest that. What Was it? It's called What We Can Know. and it's by the really great British writer Ian McEwen. And what's interesting about it, it's not quite as on the nose related to these same subjects, although in some ways it is.

It projects something, not that far into the future, maybe 100 years into the future. And it's a group of historians looking back on our time and trying to understand it. And in the meantime, in the interim, there's been a climate change disaster and a nuclear war, and the world looks very different.

And the first part of the novel, You think it's a kind of lecture, moral story about the impact of climate change. And then actually it turns into a novel about what actually can we ever know about the past. Like, you know, when we study history, when we look at think about people's motives, what's the real story we don't really know. And I'm sometimes I'm a historian when I'm not being a journalist. And I found it really thought-provoking. It's not hard to read. Okay, great.

It has a science fiction-y kind of air. Yeah. Yeah, and I'm going to do better about keeping an official list now instead of going based on my memory. When I was keeping up to speed with your suggestions and reading them myself, it was easy for me to remember. But now that I'm behind, I need to keep a written list so I can come back around to it. And Applebaum, thank you so much, as always. The podcast, Autocracy in America. Season 3 is out today.

Go check that out. And I'm sure we'll be talking to you in a couple months. Yeah, thank you. Thanks so much to Mayor Fron. for hopping on here on short notice, he's obviously so busy and Applebaum. Look, I just want to say, the news is awful out there. And I know it's tough for folks. But I really appreciated all the guests on this show this week. I thought it was a good first week of the year in what I'm trying to do here, which is be a community with these guys. We brought in an expert like Jonathan Blitzer, who knows

exactly what he's talking about. We brought in folks who know what they're talking about and have strong opinions and can comment on the news and who maybe disagree with me a little bit, Ryan Grimm did. We brought in some of our favorites, you know, Bill Crystal and George Conway. And so I appreciate all of them. And Imrah Ahmed, who's fighting the fight against this administration. This week represents what I'm trying to do with the show. I appreciate you guys being here with us. And I appreciate it if you could tell your friends to come join us because it's going to be a rocky year. So have a wonderful weekend with you and your family. We'll see you back here on Monday with Bill Crystal. Peace.

podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.