The Bulwark Podcast - Ben LaBolt and Will Saletan: The Stakes of the Moment

Episode Date: March 8, 2024

The White House explains why Biden led his State of the Union speech with the threats to democracy at home and abroad. Plus, MAGA's meltdown over Biden's vigor, Mike Johnson's squirming, and Katie Britt's freakish performance. WH Comms Director LaBolt and Saletan join Tim for the weekend pod. show notes: Democratic response to Reagan's '85 SOTU, moderated by Bill Clinton Tim’s Playlist https://open.spotify.com/playlist/0dApY6YT48kTh6j9xFDQch?si=duwnuIpGRxeVWDSkrwaD1w&pi=u-QDtY_MnOS0mV

landlord telling you to just put on another sweater when your apartment is below 21 degrees? Are they suggesting you can just put a bucket under a leak in your ceiling? That's not good enough. Your Toronto apartment should be safe and well-maintained. If it isn't and your landlord isn't responding to maintenance requests, RentSafeTO can help. Learn more at toronto.ca slash rentsafeTO. Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. It's a good morning here. President Biden was showing some vigor last night. We have more good economic news with an expectations beating 275,000 new jobs and a big win from the denver

nuggets last night so i'm pleased to be here to discuss it with white house communications director ben labolt we're going to hash out the speech and then after a break we'll get will salatin uh to talk maybe about katie brit and uh and her interesting performance last night and maybe some other stuff labolt thanks for doing this brother glad to be here good to talk to you yeah i do have to do a disclaimer at the top me and ben are friends and not like and maybe some other stuff. LeBolt, thanks for doing this, brother. Glad to be here. Good to talk to you. Yeah, I do have to do a disclaimer at the top. Me and Ben are friends. Not like everyone in D.C. says that they're friends if they've met at a party one time before,

but Ben and I are friends. But I will say, our friendship was forged through disagreement and arguing back when I was a Republican flack. So we're happy to disagree, and we can survive that. So I don't know if you have any hits on me from 2012 that you want to get out of the way before we start, Ben, but you can take one free shot if you want. Well, I was hoping we could still argue a little bit today or find something to argue about. But yeah, I mean, we're kind of in a weird era now, right, where all of my

Republican friends from back in the day who used to be competitors, and we would get into arguments, sort of recognize the stakes of the moment now and agree on a lot more than we disagree on, which is both reassuring and concerning at the same time. Yeah, you picked some good Republican friends, because that's not true for some of my old friends, but we can do that off there. Okay, I'm going to start with a hard-headed question, though. Sean Hannity last night suggested that the president was on something more than caffeine. The former president accused Joe Biden of being on drugs, saying the drugs were wearing off late in the speech. And then a host on The Blaze, I don't know if you're watching The Blaze, but they asked if staff had painted his hands with smelling salts. And so my question to you is, did you participate

in any foul play last night? Did you put anything on the president's hands? I think I saw another one of those crazy channels say that he'd had a Panera lemonade before the speech. I mean, look, this is what's so crazy is that MAGA Republicans and Fox and others have been spreading this misinformation that the president doesn't have it together anymore. And if you go out on the road with him, if you see him here at the White House, he's doing multiple events a week. He's taking tough questions from reporters

a few times a week. And he shows a lot of this energy every single day. And it was certainly required to pass all the major pieces of legislation that he passed to work the phones giving the speech last night that everyone here knew he was absolutely capable of, you know, that has the sort of energetic exchanges that we have with him in prep and based on different things that are going on in the news every day. And so it was almost funny to see their attempt to reset that discussion last night and say, oh, well, actually, we thought the president demonstrated too much energy last night. It was too much. It was over the top. It was really outrageous. The American people won't stand for it. Yeah. So I want to just at the biggest possible picture

get from you guys, like what you felt as I had some thoughts about, you know, what the goals of the State of the Union speech could be speech could be, what a State of the Union speech has been in the past, a lot of time a laundry list, versus kind of what the president tried to execute last night. So what was the White House's view on what were the goals of the night? Well, there's always a structure to State of the Unions, but I think this one was a little bit different. I mean, part of it is it's the largest audience that the president will be in front of all year. So you do have to do some discussion about the record and certainly the economic progress that we've made since the

pandemic that the average American may not have heard before, even though if you're hyper political and watch the news every night, you had. So some of that work had to be done. Laying out a vision for a second term, you heard the president talk about a number of domestic policy items like lowering the cost of mortgages, lowering health care costs, but also things like restoring Roe versus Wade that had to be made clear as part of the speech. But I thought the thing that really stuck out for me that I'll remember, because I've been through a few of these, were just outlining the stakes of the moment for the country and opening the speech in a way that talked about democracy

being at threat abroad and at home, and revisiting the events of January 6th, revisiting the fact that there's an active group of people out there that still believe that Joe Biden lost in 2020-21 and then cheered on people who tried to overturn the results of a free and fair election. The president ran in the first place because of the stakes of the moment after Charlottesville, because of the risk that was posed by Donald Trump. Those threats to democracy still very much exist today in a way that just a person going about their daily lives may not focus on. And so I thought setting the table around that was really important last night. Yeah. I mean, you didn't have to start with Ukraine, right? I did think to me, I thought that was very notable that he comes out very hot starting out ukraine that i think the maybe and now this might be my 80s kid you know republican showing the moment that

hit me the artist came towards the very top when he's talking about putin we're just going to put in the clip my message to president putin who i've known for a long time is simple we will not walk away is simple. We will not walk away. We will not bow down. I will not bow down. In a literal sense, history is watching. We will not bow down. I will not bow down. I thought that that was an interesting combination, right? As maybe a subtext there attack on the former president, but also just demonstrating resolve and kicking off with that. I mean, I have to imagine there's some pushback on that internally, like, do we really want to start with Ukraine, you know, given all the potential issues? So talk about that choice and leading off with the clear contrast with Putin and maybe some tweet of Donald Trump. I think it comes to the fact that former President Trump has

always embraced strongmen and authoritarians. And now he's saying here in the U.S. he wants to be a dictator on day one. And the fact is, people should take him at his word and take him seriously. I think, you know, there's still too many people out there that will say, oh, he's just a performance artist. He's joking around. He doesn't mean what he says. We think he's dead serious about what he's saying. And you can look at what's happening abroad in countries where rights and freedoms are being rolled back in very significant ways. And that's what's on the table here at home. And you've already seen what's happened in terms of reproductive rights, in terms of IVF for families who need to access that option. And so I think part of it was about making very tangible and clear what that type of authoritarian attitude and belief in being a strong man is all about.

And the fact that it sort of undermines the essence of what America is all about and what America has always been about, whether there were Democrats or Republican presidents in the past. They've all kind of shared that belief in small d democracy until Donald Trump. Because that's the direct tie, right? So you go from hitting Putin into January 6th. The next best line for me that I want to just put in here, let's just listen to President Biden. My predecessor and some of you here seek to bury the truth about January 6th.

I will not do that. This is the moment to speak the truth seek to bury the truth about january 6th i will not do that this is the moment to speak the truth and to bury the lies here's the simple truth you can't love your country only when you win you can't only love the country when you win. Mike Johnson squirming behind the president there. I don't know if you guys had a Mike Johnson cam going, but again, you didn't have to do that, right? You could have started the speech talking about the IRA, right? There are a lot of things that you could have started the speech talking about, and you go immediately into the Putin contrast

and then start talking about January 6th. Talk about the rationale for that. Well, look, I think that MAGA Republicans are still very focused on whitewashing the events of January 6th and saying that these were patriots at the Capitol. Great patriots. Exactly. You've got the former president playing a song at his events that pays tribute to that moment. trust, from elected officials that they trust, from candidates that they trust. And those lies are taking hold. And so I think the president

last night really wanted to call that out, really wanted to bury the lies in real time in front of the American people and reach out to all those Americans who, by the way, in 2022 said they weren't going to vote for election deniers. Reach out to those folks who supported Nikki Haley and said they thought that the election was appropriately settled in 2020 and that President Biden was the legitimately elected president and have concerns about this denialism that's been going on out there. You're not a fan of the January 6th choir there, I take as a subtext. That's not in your Spotify rotation. I find the lyrics to be a bit concerning.

I'm not sure about you. The Haley thing, I was going to ask this, but you mentioned that. You brought it up. Just think about the priorities, right? There is this balance in a speech like this last night, right? Versus you could have focused it on bragging about accomplishments to me the first 20 minutes really is talking to the i felt hurt i guess is what i'm saying uh as as somebody that was aspiring to be a haley voter in louisiana

that didn't get the opportunity to i felt like you were talking to them directly in the people that look at those polls and say hey like there is somebody out here that believes in NATO, believes in the free world, thinks the election was legitimately handled, isn't cool with storming the Capitol. I mean, there was a lot of pearl clutching by some on the right about how political of a speech it was. But, you know, at some point, like, that was the intent, right? To create a clear contrast on a values level? Absolutely. Look, I think that if you were traditionally a Republican voter or a center-right voter, there's very important room for you within the president's coalition. And you may disagree on the margins of what the appropriate tax rate should be for corporations.

Maybe that's how you student loan bailout. Do you want me to start listing the other places we disagree on the margins? Or should we just? I have a little less prepared, if you want. But I think this is like you and me. We've kind of come around on the big things, agreed to disagree on the margins of some aspects of domestic policy, because we know the stakes of the moment for the country. And that's how he tried to open the speech last night. He also, by the way, there's a lot of things that

66% of the country agrees on in that speech. So the bipartisan border deal with if President Biden and Oklahoma Senator Lankford can agree on that, by the way. And, you know, 70 Democrats and Republicans in the Senate can agree on something. That's something that has broad support. You know, some of the lowering costs agenda around prescription drug costs and expanding that to all Americans, the cap on prescription drug costs, for example, that's something that 85 percent of Americans support. People tend to support that across parties, maybe not in Congress, but across the country. So, you know, there was a lot there that was set to address concerns about people who feel like maybe prices haven't come down as much as they want yet.

You know, there's a reason he started by raising the stakes of the moment for the country. If you're somebody who believes in the U.S., believes in democracy, you know, he referenced Reagan in the speech last night, right? Those were intentional choices. The Lankford thing, well, I guess you were watching, were you in the room or were you watching it back at the White House? I didn't ask you. I was back at the White House. Yep. So you see on TV, right, the Lankford saying that's true. It was a nice little gift from James Lankford in Oklahoma. But I thought it was interesting.

The ghost of James Lankford was an important character for me during the speech last night because it was like, here's this guy that is a down-the-line conservative. Not like one of me. I'm not a moderate former Republican, but like a conservative Republican trying to solve a problem and just gets the rug pulled out from under him and is alone. He's sitting alone last night and as the Democratic president is laying out, okay, here's a deal that is going to help us support our allies abroad and secure the border. And all the Republicans are like, well, it's not true. That's BS. And the guy that wrote it

is a conservative Republican mouthing that's true. To me, that was a big validation last night. Yeah, it absolutely was. And look, it was a reminder that President Biden has been able to work with Leader McConnell to pass a whole number of big ticket items through this Congress on things like infrastructure, things like making sure we're building semiconductors in the US instead of overseas in Asia. There was the sense when the presidency started that the president wouldn't be able to work with Republicans in Congress, but there was still a handful that he could get things done with, and still a handful that do want to get things done and work with him. But what's disrupted it is the kind of magization of the

party led by Donald Trump and a whole host of political incentives that are selfish politically and not good for the country. And so you saw that play out last night. There are Republicans who want to govern, want to get things done for the president, but it's been disrupted by this takeover of the party from people who only care about advancing their own personal political interests. I can really see the changes of our roles by the way that you respectfully call him Leader McConnell. Those were not the words that I was using talking about Mitch on yesterday's podcast. I do have to put you on one thing about the speech, and then I want to go to a couple of big picture things before we lose you.

So, Lincoln Riley, maybe the one kind of gaffe in the present, I miss, kind of fumbles her day, because Lincoln Riley had been killed by an undocumented immigrant in Georgia. I assume you didn't plan that. I guess you would know, since you were part of the speech writing prep, that Marjorie Taylor Greene was going to be in a red hat, handing him buttons and wearing a t-shirt, which was an interesting choice, and screaming at him to say her name. And then he does it, right? He picks up the button live and addresses her parents who are in the crowd, talks about Beau.

Were you white knuckling through that? Or talk to me about that exchange about Lake and Riley. I don't think so. Look, I think that the president handles off the cuff moments in his events on the road all the time. It's hard to proactively plan something around Marjorie Taylor Greene because, you know, usually with her, it's just some sort of you can expect chaos and disruption, but you're not sure what it's going to be about.

I think that was an organic moment. The president spoke directly to Lake and Riley's family as somebody who's lost a child before and thinks about that every single day. And often we'll talk about that experience. And then I think he went to the broader solution that he's put forward on the table, which is we do need a plan to secure the border. There's a bipartisan plan that's on the table, and we need a lot more people screening at the border and expediting the process around that and not have people be able to come into the country who have six years before they sit down with an immigration judge and an asylum officer to

determine whether or not they have a right to be here. I mean, we can talk more broadly about crime as well. This is a president who didn't give in to some voices on the party a few years ago when they wanted to defund the police. He's passed the American Rescue Plan, which has provided resources to cities to bring down the violent crime rate at a historic percent over the course of the past year. And a lot of that was because they're able to hire more police officers from those funds and more mental health counselors and community interventionists that have really helped bring that down. He's been focused on it. So he's got a solution here, but I think he wanted to speak directly to the parents in that moment as well.

As the White House communications director, someone who used to be a communications director, a big part of your job is fielding complaints from people. So I'm going to make you field a couple of complaints from Never Trump World. And the first one is you just did it. You bring up the police issue. And I think sometimes there's a frustration that the White House is not making a more deliberate case about the ways in which that this administration has distanced themselves from certain things on the progressive left. There's been record oil drilling, more police funding. He's not folded to the campus left on Gaza. Is there a way to be making that case more forcefully? Do you feel like there's a hesitation to make that case more forcefully because you don't want to piss off the left?

How do you kind of assess that? Well, I think we make elements of it, Tim. And I think part of the reason Joe Biden is president is because he was able to build a broad coalition that included traditional Democrats that united the Democratic Party, but still left plenty of room for independents and former Republicans or even current Republicans who weren't comfortable with Donald Trump. And so there are some things you mentioned energy. You know, I was looking at a chart today that said under this administration, there's both been a record reduction in emissions, but also record energy

independence for the US and the lowest amount of energy imports that we've ever had in the history of this country. So things like that, I think we probably could be talking more about. But I also think, you know, the president is generally for on big policy items, these matters of big national consensus that maybe just certain factions of the Republican Party don't support. And those are issues in which, the street, even on things like gun violence. Universal background checks is at like 85 percent support, even though they may not have enough Republican votes in Congress today. But the country supports it. So we'll identify the issues to bring folks in. I think some of it will be just these issues of broad national consensus of which, by the way, preserving our democracy is a part, and issues like preserving IVF is a part. So I just have to ask you, though, I was on TV with this joker yesterday.

I know you have a real job, so you probably aren't watching daytime cable news in the White House, but he's a Haley donor. And he says to me, but I can't be for Biden. I mean, the campus left, the Free Palestine, the from the river to the sea people, they're Biden coalition people. I can't be for them. Like, that's frustrating to me because I obviously see the difference. Like, how do you navigate, like, communicating what the White House is doing to people like

that with also, like, understanding legitimate concerns people have about gossip? Yeah, I'd ask them to look at how thoughtful the president has been in the moment and on foreign policy issues generally. I mean, I think we benefit from the fact that he was the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee for decades, that he literally knows every foreign leader who's served a long time around the world that he can bring the experience in Israel of having known every prime minister since Golda Meir. And so when events like October 7th happen, he's not caught off guard. He knows exactly what to do. And he puts our national security interests first and not politics first. And if you dig down into what he's done, he's defended Israel's right to

defend itself against the terrorist threat posed by Hamas and made clear that Hamas cannot remain in power. But at the same time, there are 2 million innocent civilians in Gaza that need to be protected. It's to no one's benefit if they're threatened. And there is a serious humanitarian crisis there. And so he's worked to protect those civilians, get humanitarian aid in, but still make sure that Israel is secure and has the right to defend itself. And so that's not a solution that's filled with easy political talking points. That's not really the point or what drives his leadership. Well, it kind of is. It kind of is. I mean, you united everybody except two people with that strategy. So that's pretty good. Okay. Sarah Longwood's going to get mad at me. Two final things for you. Sarah Longwood's going to get mad at me if I don't ask you about surrogates.

There's a concern out there that, look, President Biden, I think that for all of his strengths, we saw his vigor last night. You know, like, we can just be honest. This isn't, speechifying is maybe not his number one skill, if you're listing his skill sets. And having more people out there making the case, making, you know, the case on these issues we were just talking about, it feels sometimes, I think maybe us Never Trumpers, we just, we're so fucking, we're so fucking passionate. It's like the zeal of the convert. We hate Trump so much. Like we just want people out there just channeling our rage and channeling, you know, our passion for this. And sometimes it feels like that urgency is not there. What are you going to say to that about getting more people out, making the case as we get into 2024?

Look, I think the door is wide open. Obviously, I defer to the team over on the campaign on all the details of their political strategy here. I can speak to what we see. But you can have secretaries out. And, you know, I mean, we could get Mayor Pete could be doing some things besides filling potholes. You know, we could get him on the tube.

Yeah, absolutely. Look, we've got an aggressive travel schedule for the president, vice president, first lady, second gentleman and cabinet. They're going to fan out across the country over the next month and do versions in states of the State of the Union address. I think part of the challenge we face is it's just harder to reach people today. So one of the things we've done here is we've hired a director of consumer media that recognizes the fact that in 2020, the number one show for persuadable voters wasn't the news. It was The Bachelor, right? We've got to be on dayside TV that's not overly political.

We've got a podcast strategy. We had a bunch of digital influencers here at the White House last night. Bro podcast. You've got to get on the bro podcasts. You know, we've got to reach them. They're not ready to be dabs. We do the bro podcast. You got to get on the bro podcasts. You know, we got to reach them. They don't want, they're not ready to be dabs. We do the bro podcast, but we also talk to folks, you know, here on, on the center, right. But it's just because things are so fractured. We basically need to dial up volume as much as we have trusted validators. Cause I think we have a

good group of folks, but the door is always open for more. All right, very last thing, just kind of on a personal level, because I don't know if folks know you that well. You know, you're not like a Biden lifer, like many people around him. You didn't live in DC, you weren't like looking for the next gig, you weren't unemployed. You were employed quite successfully in San Francisco, actually, when we had hang out in the Bay Area and had left DC. And so you decided to get back in, to return, to go back into the White House, to work for Joe Biden. And so I'm not saying this is like some great sacrifice, but it was a choice, right, to re-engage in government, to re-engage in this, you know, democratic fight. As I recall, you didn't really know Joe Biden that well. And so just talk to people about like that decision, going back in, meeting with him, meeting with the first lady, meeting with the team and kind of deciding

that this was something that was worth getting back engaged in. Absolutely. Look, for me, this has been about the stakes of the moment. As you know, Tim, I spent the first 10 years of my career sort of as a political junkie, campaign junkie, working on the Hill, in the White House, on campaigns. And I thought I'd spent about 10 years doing that and then transition to a more balanced lifestyle where you're sitting at your desk eating pizza all day. There's just wine, a more balanced lifestyle, Napa, a regular job, weekends, things like that. Exactly. There were finding some moments of joy that weren't just

work-driven. And I spent the next 10 years doing that. And frankly, I could have spent the rest of my life doing it. But I you know, I didn't know and many people didn't predict that Donald Trump would become president. I didn't know and couldn't predict that he'd be running again. I did get to know, you know, then Vice President Biden just a bit, having worked on both Obama and Biden campaigns and had a sense of what to do in a campaign communications operation, what to do in a White House communications operation. And so I figured I'd volunteer and I helped on the transition. And then I came back and I helped confirm Justice Tajibran Jackson. And I saw the president build up this incredible record. And I felt like the press never really understood him or gave him the appropriate credit for that. And I also know with the fracturing of the media and sort of all these partisan outlets

out there, how difficult it is to break through on your message at all anymore. And so there was this big challenge facing the operation, which was the president has an incredible record and vision. I know what he's like as a leader in the room, but there was a misperception out there nationwide of what that was. And he's heightened stakes to the moment where, you know, I do want the U.S. to still feel like the country that I grew up in. And I think this is a year where everybody's going to have to ask themselves, do I have some extra time to give? Do I have a skill set that I can access here or a network that I can lean on a little bit more than I would

in a normal year? Because this is a moment that's going to take all of us with whatever skill set we have and whatever network we have. And we can't just consume the news, but we have and we can't just consume the news but we have to participate in this moment to intervene and so i felt strongly about that i'm a big believer in the president i didn't think he was getting sufficient credit i knew he was capable of the type of speech he gave last night and i'm really energized for does he yell at you i hear i hear in west wing playbook he's a yeller i said that is a yeller i would not describe him as that at all as you know I like a good I like a gay kind of sarcastic ribbing every once in a while you know I grew up in a household with a lot of that and so every once in a while I get one of those but

it's always uh it's always good natured and something you're able to uh to laugh off and smile about a little bit it's deserved deserved. You deserve a fucking ribbing. Ben LeBold, I'm happy you decided to go back into the White House. Let's stay in touch over the next few months. Thanks for doing the Bollard Podcast, brother. Great talking to you, Tim. This was fun. All right.

We are back with my colleague, Will Salatan. And I want to just be totally transparent with everybody. We're trying out this thing where I would like to have more newsmakers on here, especially on big days, like the day after the State of the Union. But, you know, my friend Ben LeBolt,

if you're a communications director, that doesn't always make for the best pod, right? Like you got to be on talking points. You know, there's a lot of subtext there you got to read through. So my idea on how to handle this is that we'll interview some politicians, some spokespeople, and then bring on Will Salatin or some of our other colleagues and, you know, help you translate a little bit,

help you translate what they were trying to get at, what we learned from those conversations. And so give us a comment there in the sub stack or send me an email. Let us know what you think about that. William, thank you for doing this. How are you feeling this morning? Good, good. Tim, you know, it's really cool for you because you've been on both sides of this. You've had to be the boring guy and now you have to interview the boring guy and you make it less boring. It's just a great challenge. It is. I've been enjoying it. I don't know if you could tell during the interview, but I enjoyed ribbing Ben by saying things and asking things that I knew that he could, that he would have to be the straight man, you know? And, and so I get to be, I sort of like, it's more fun for me, frankly. So, well, before we get to LeBolt, just at the top level, I'm curious

what your thoughts were about last night, about Biden first, and then we can get into my good friend, Katie Britt and what the weird little thing that she had going. So what'd you think about the president? Well, he, he solved his main problem, which was the Republicans had painted this box he was in, which was he's old, he's feeble, he's sleepy Joe. And he definitely wasn't sleepy. And of course, all the reaction from Republicans afterwards, he's so mean and partisan. That's fine. Because what he needed to do was break that cliche about himself. And he totally did that. Wait, just really quick.

What did you think about the mean and partisan thing? Because sometimes I feel like maybe I can't be a clean judge on this anymore because I hate them so much. I hate the Trumpers so much. And like Mike Johnson, I just has a punchable face for me. And I just so old Tim five years ago, I feel like you have much better equilibrium on this. Like old Tim five years ago, I think would you have much better equilibrium on this. Like old Tim five years ago, I think would have been more sensitive to having a speech be a little, you know, feel more politicized

than it should be in that chamber. But new Tim was kind of like, hell yeah. So anyway, what can you give me maybe more of a dispassionate look at that? I can't get past it. These guys are complaining. They've got people heckling. They got a lady in a MAGA hat, you know, handing a button to the president. Just the guy in the tGA hat, you know, handing a button to the president. Just the guy in the t-shirt, the never surrender t-shirt with the button. Oh, totally. And didn't like Trump in his last State of the Union, like give Rush Limbaugh, say he was going to give Rush Limbaugh the Medal of Freedom. I mean, come on, come on. Like, you know, the same way that Biden can't compete with Republicans on being right-wing about this

or that issue, he can't compete with Republicans about being mean and partisan. I'm sorry. He's just never going to be there. I think that's right. So on the substance? On the substance, a couple of things. First of all, I thought that Biden did a really good job of trying to reach out to the Haley vote, trying to reach out to disaffected, you know, Reagan conservatives. He starts off with Ukraine, an issue where he's with them, right? He does the border stuff. He says, look, which is another thing Nikki Haley talked about, right? We should pass the border bill. We actually should solve the problem and not just have an issue. So I think that he did a great job of that. And he also said something really interesting. There's this theme about, it sounds boring to you and me. It's a wonky thing. We're going to

actually solve problems. But if you can frame an election around that, I'm the guy who's actually trying to solve the problem, like the border. And they're the people who just want the issue, right? They don't solve things. They just could do press conferences. They're just, you know, peanut gallery. That can be effective. So I thought he did both of those things well. Yeah. I changed my mind. We're going to save Katie Brett for dessert because I just want to, I just want to just sort of just swim in it and just kind of spend a lot of time just sort of just really taking it all in and thinking about the performance and appreciate it kind of like when you sit at the end of a movie sometimes or the movie's so good you have to kind of sit through the credits and just let it wash over you. I want

to do that with Katie Britt at the end. So let's go back to LeBolt. I think the interesting thing for me and what your takeaway was, was all of these were very intentional choices, right? Like the idea for Biden to be yelling was not an accident, right? Like the idea to start by trolling the Republicans over Putin and January 6th was not an accident, right? And so, you know, he can't come on today, the White House spokesman and be like, boom, bitch, like we trolled you. But to me, the subtext was very much like, yeah, yeah, we were, it was a political speech. It was like, we felt like we had to do it. Isn't that how you read it? What struck me was like, we've seen a lot of boring Joe Biden when Biden has to just give a speech. There's not a lot of life in it. Whispering, I hate the whisper. He does. But you

know, he does seem to do better when he has a foil, right? He's got Trump as a foil. He's got the House Republicans. He's got Mike Johnson. And so that old fight picking thing, I think they were also getting the best out of Joe Biden when they did that. I agree. And, you know, there is some tension. I was listening this morning to Stephen Hayes was bringing up that there's a little bit of tension between like this idea that, oh, the Republicans are this grave threat, democratic threat, that they're my foil, but also America's doing great, like the state of the union is getting better, right? There's this tension between Joe Biden is fighting for the soul of the nation and brings people together. And Joe Biden is also, you know, Tomahawk dunking on Marjorie Taylor Greene in the

crowd, right? Like there is tension between those things and you do kind of have to choose. And in 2020, the huge slip at times, in 2020, 95% of the Biden output was very unity, norms, soul of the nation, right? And to me, I think we learned last night that 2024 is going to be a lot more, no, F these guys, they're dangerous. We need to beat them. We have to fight. And I think that that's probably the right choice. I don't know. How do you assess that? I don't even think it was a choice. You can't be a perfect unity candidate. You can't say I'm with Donald Trump and the MAGA people when they're attacking basic American values. If you're going

to stand for the unity of America, we know what Biden called the North Star, just basic things, common sense, decency, equality, democracy, the rule of law. When you have another party that is attacking those things, you have to fight them because you're defending America. I don't think Biden was going to be able to get through an election against Donald Trump by pretending to agree on all that stuff. He's going to have to fight if he's going to fight for us. What else did you take away from Ben? You know, even though he was trying to just stick to the talking points, he did let on. He did say, for example, that at the top of the speech, Biden goes to Ukraine, talks about Ukraine at the beginning, which I was very surprised by. And then Biden goes to January 6th. And Ben basically said

that was a choice. We wanted those two things to be paired together. And at the time, you know, Mike Johnson got a lot of crap for not standing and not applauding on the Ukraine stuff. Russia's invading Europe. Why are you, you know, conservatives not standing? But maybe Mike Johnson understood that that was the segue and that because Mike Johnson has to stand with the autocrat at home, Donald Trump, he can't, you know, applaud the part about the autocrat abroad because that's Biden's, can't, you know, applaud the part about the autocrat abroad, because that's Biden's, you know, painting them together. So I thought Ben was really clear that the threat to democracy at home, the threats to democracy abroad, we're going to bring those two

things together. And that kind of puts the Republicans in a box as being friends with both Trump and Putin. Yeah, the Mike Johnson thing, I think was disorienting though. He seemed confused. I think he seemed disoriented. Eventually he sort of found his footing as I'm just going to roll my eyes and wince and shake my head. But I think he got a little caught off guard by the beginning because there were a few times where he's kind of like half clapping and he's looking around and it's like, what should I do right now? Because it's unnatural as somebody who is not too much younger than Mike Johnson. We all grew up at the same time. We're Republicans.

It's unnatural to not clap when the president's like, we are going to stop Vladimir Putin from invading our, you know, a democratic ally, right? Like that we are good, that America is going to be strong, that we're going to stand with our friends, right? Like somebody like that, we will not bow down to Putin. You want to kind of be like, okay, yeah, yeah, that's right. But you don't, you know what I mean? Like, is this a bipartisan stand up? I think he was disoriented and it was disoriented for me as a watcher to be like, this is really where we are now, right?

The Democrats have somebody in the crowd with the Ukraine flag, a congressman, you know, in a suit, also draped in a Ukraine flag, and the Republicans are sitting. This is a really great point. You're making me think about Mike Johnson as a metaphor for what's happened to the Republican Party. Situations where a Republican speaker would have stood in any previous, right, era of the Republican Party won't do it now. You're totally right about Johnson, by the way. He seemed to have adopted an idea that he's not going to stand in general. He's not going to react in general, So he doesn't have to pick and choose, but then he did, but then he did. So on the Ukraine stuff, Biden brings up Ukraine, Johnson won't stand. Biden

then goes to, Biden says, just bring up the Ukraine bill. It'll pass, right? Or bring up the border bill. It'll pass. At that point, Johnson has to react. He's shaking his head. Like you, you know, it wouldn't pass. Of course it would. And the guy sitting there not standing up, Mike Johnson, is the reason why these things aren't passing. If you put them on the floor, back to your point about consensus, you get three quarters of Congress on these bills. Right. But one guy who's enthralled to Marjorie Taylor Greene and Matt Gaetz and would lose his job if he did it is holding it back. So he can't stand for that. Can we talk a little bit about Gaza for a second? Mike Johnson, there were three points when Biden was talking about Israel and Gaza when everybody stood up, right? One is Biden says, we're going to get the hostages back, right? Everybody stands. Kamala Harris stands. Except for Rashida Tlaib and Cori Bush. We do have to say Rashida Tlaib and Cori Bush both sat during that. And I will say that Cori Bush, there's an ongoing primary, and we might be trying to get her opponent on this podcast. And so I was watching that last night making a mental note.

And I was like, we need to try to track down Wesley Hunt because this is fucking gross. But anyway, everybody but two people stood up for getting hostage back. Oh, this is great, though. Now we have an actual left-right dispute at the Bulwark. I'm with Ben LeBolt. I don't want to talk about those people. Don't bring them up. OK, but let me set them aside for a minute. Mike Johnson. So bring the hostages back. Everybody stands up. Mike Johnson stands up and applauds. Right.

Then Biden says Israel has a responsibility to protect Palestinian civilians. Right. Kamala Harris stands up. Democrats stand up. Mike Johnson sits. Now, at this point, you could say maybe Mike Johnson doesn't want to stand up because he doesn't want to say that's Israel's responsibility. It's Hamas's fault. OK, I can give him that. Then Biden says, and we're going to set up this maritime, you know, we're going to set up ships bringing aid into Gaza. Kamala Harris stands up. The Democrats stand up. Mike Johnson won't stand for aid to the Palestinians. Like that's not about blaming Israel. That's about just basic humanity.

These are people starving and dying, right? I thought that was really disturbing. And to me, that was a sign of how callous a lot of people have become about the death in Gaza. Yeah, that's one area where we definitely agree. So I thought it was interesting from hearing from the bolt that you know again there's this tension right where he works for government right so it's like you're gonna talk to the campaign about some of these things but it's but he's volunteering he's bringing up haley voters right like intentionally mentioning that we're reaching out to haley voters intentionally bringing up that he's

on this podcast because they are trying to reach out to center-right voters intentionally bringing up increased funding for police you know all of that and you saw that in the speech last night too but i really thought that kind of just talking about it with ben you could you could just really appreciate the intentionality of how they feel like that that that those are folks that they need i they know, and they were trying to talk to them last night in the speech. You know what I mean? Many State of the Unions, when you're writing the speech and when you're talking to your policy people, one thing that is not generally in mind is,

how do we talk to one faction of the other party? And they were, I think, very intentional about that. Right. Well, I'll give you some credit here, or maybe I'll, this is a little backstage thing. So I've watched a couple of the interviews Ben's done over the last 24 hours, not just with us. So he did that for us. He did the whole, you know, he said to you, right, you know, we're going for the center right voter, that Reagan reference that was delivered.

He didn't say that to anybody else. I wasn't in the CBS interview. That's a bulwark audience play. But which is not to say it isn't real, because we know from Joe Biden's career that it is real, right? He loves to work across the aisle. But that was kind of deliberate. And I totally agree with the idea. First of all, Haley just dropped out.

So this is a good moment to be reaching to those people. But the other thing, Tim, is it captures what's going on in our country. There is a giant hole in American politics right now where a sensible conservative party would be, you know, a party that would actually try to close the border instead of keeping it as perpetual campaign issue about caravans and stuff, right? A party that would stand up for freedom abroad against, you know, a Russian invasion of Europe. And so Biden is moving into that space. He's more there than a lot of today's Republicans are, than Mike Johnson, for example, is. And I think he's

very wise to move in there. And Ben's just affirming that's what he's doing. Yeah, it's a little cautious, though. I will say this about it. You know what I mean? And I said, we want it to be more fervent. So I said, look, I don't need Joe Biden, whatever. I'm not in the Bill Kristol space where we want the Biden-Liz Cheney crossover ticket. I don't need that. I don't. I really don't. He can talk about climate. He's been a fairly progressive president, frankly, in certain elements of the initiatives

that they've put forth. But as a positioning standpoint, in the areas where he's not, I'd like to see them wave the bloody shirt a little more. You know what I mean? I'd like to see them be like, you know, these two people that weren't standing up for the hostages released? I was. Okay, you notice these Republicans on Fox, they say that I'm enthralled to Rashida Tlaib and these people that are on pro-Hamas, but they're sitting while I'm talking because we disagree on this. I want Israel to release hostage. I would like people, I would like, you know, to not have to pull teeth about mentioning that we're more energy independent than ever, right? Like, you know what I mean? Like some of that stuff,

I just, I would like a little more effort. Is that too much to ask, do you think? You want him to triangulate. You want Bill Clinton back. Yeah, I want a little more Bill Clinton. Can I get a little Bill Clinton just for six months? Just are you going to win Michigan for him if he loses the Arab American vote? I mean, who are you going to deliver? Are we worried about that? Are you really worried? How worried are we about that really?

I don't know. I mean, it's just shocking to me that anyone who cares about Palestinians would rather help Donald Trump get elected, a guy who's literally advocated a ban on Muslims in this country and would absolutely throw Gaza to the wolves. But let me come back to what you want out of this. Would you be happy, Tim, if Biden went harder at the police stuff? So let's bring people back to yesterday, you were talking with Tom Nichols about this, right? That you caught the thing in Mike Johnson's last press conference where he says, we're going to defund the FBI and, you know, the Justice Department. ATF, right. Of course, that's gun enforcement. We don't want that.

But the Republicans, like they're talking about defunding federal law enforcement. So Biden does, he did say in the speech, right, he did say, we have more money for cops on, I forget exactly what his line was. He did. But he didn't go hard at it. Would you be happier if he went hard at that? I wanted to go hard at it. Would you be happier if he went hard at that? I wanted to go hard at it. Yeah. Here's the thing about Biden. This was a frustrating thing. I remember talking to Ron Klain about this at some point in 2020, where I was like, Biden,

I think, if my memory is correct, there was a police officer that died on the duty, maybe in Delaware or in Philly. And Biden went and spoke at the the funeral and he was so in his element and it was like i was talking about this and it was like this is what this guy's done his whole life right like he's been a pro-union pro-cop right politician has spoken a lot of police funerals and yeah can i see ads with biden hanging out with cops by i want what was my joke with i was somebody recently this week i was like i want him on an oil rig with a hat with a hard hat and some like spoil splatter on his face is that too much to ask maybe i guess maybe it's too much to ask

you can tell that they want to do it but it just feels a little timid it felt a little timid from biden a little timid from ben where they're timid from Ben. Well, they're saying it. They want to check the box to do it. You know what I mean? They want to do it, but they're a little worried that if they do it too hard, that they're going to get backlash. And maybe that's a legit worry, by the way. Maybe that's a legit worry. I don't know.

Well, maybe if Biden said, you know, used illegal as a noun a couple more times, I would do the job. You had the cringe too, right? Yeah, I mean, maybe it's good. So I don't say that. I don't use illegal as a noun. Like, okay, I cringed a little bit, but it also made me laugh. Again, it's like, there's this whole fantasy,

Biden, what we were talking about with Tom Nichols, right, where it's like on Fox News, it's the fantasy that, oh, you know, he's in with the woke left, right? And that he's the social, and it's like on fox news it's the fantasy that oh you know he's in with the woke left right and that he's the social and it's like joe biden i was like if you handed joe biden a speech that had latinx in it he would assume that it was a typo right he would be like what are you talking about you know what i mean he does not know the right words like he is not part of the identity language pulley and so is that a worry maybe if you're a conservative you're worried about the left's going this direction is that a worry for 2032 sure yeah i'm fair that's fair but like but you know where you're not going to vote for joe

biden because of it you know i think that the illegal thing i don't exactly know how to do it but i wish there was like a stealth campaign to like but like to like show him saying words like that to on bro podcasts. Yeah. And just to back up for a minute on this for everybody to understand Joe Biden does not have a bigoted bone in his body. And this is just, this is just an old guy talking, but just let me come back to, you know, the triangulation or reaching across and establishing yourself as agreeing with conservatives about something. I don't know if crime is the issue where you need to do that. I think the border is the more salient issue because it is a serious, serious problem. He is making a play there. And if I were Ben LeVault and if I were Joe Biden, that's what I would be pushing. I would be

grabbing this opportunity because the Republican Party is sending a very clear message that it isn't, this is a Hakeem Jeffries word, they're not serious. They're not serious about any of these policy things. They talk about like it's a national security threat at the border, but the bill comes to them and they're like, no, no, no, let's wait a year. Let's wait and see if we can get our guy elected by making the problem worse. And so Biden's very wise to step into that. They've been saying, Tim, for a couple of weeks that they were going to hit hard on this. I'm not seeing enough of it. What I want to see from this White House is going hard at that border bill. There was some in the speech, but much more of, we agreed to all this stuff that's in the bill. That clip of James Lankford saying, that's true, that's right.

It's really important. Go do something with James Lankford, who was endorsed Donald Trump. But Lankford is like, as you said, he's not a center right guy. He's a right right guy, right? And all he did was sit there and actually work with Democrats to solve what all conservatives agreed was a problem. And he gets chucked overboard. And he's still there, and he's still principled. Find a way to work with him. Find a way to do something with him. Yeah, I thought the two most meaningful moments of the speech were not from the stage, though I did think Biden was good. It was Lankford saying that's true, and then this from C-SPAN after the speech, which is Joe Biden's exchange with Jerry Nadler. Let's going to talk about cognitive impairment now and uh biden i kind of wish sometimes i was cognitively impaired that's funny that's funny and so my question thoughts on that

but also this is over right i'm sorry to bill crystal but the it's over right like the whole like ezra klein you know joe biden isn't up for this he put that to bed last night but it's over, right? Like the whole, like, Ezra Klein, you know, Joe Biden isn't up for this. He put that to bed last night, right? It's over? Yes. And, you know, speaking of bed, like, Joe Biden may be the old guy, but it's like the anti-Biden people who've been wetting themselves. I mean, they've been panicking for months about, like, you know, he can't handle it and we need to put someone else in. The argument for Biden on the negative side has been, who do you got in mind? Who's going to like unify the Democratic Party all of a sudden and who's not going to have some other problem? But there's an affirmative

point too, which is that he can handle it. And that a lot of people were in doubt about that. I think he's put that to rest for now. There's going to be more gas. There's absolutely going to be more gas, but can he do it? He showed in this speech that he can. Yeah. And there could be, well, it's a happy Friday. The Nuggets won. We got jobs. I'm not going to bring up the other potential problems. I'm with you. Okay.

We got to do Katie Britt before we go. That was the weirdest shit I've ever seen in my life. I swear. I'm not gilding the lily. My whole body, I was getting tingles on my body when she started speaking. My husband is in the chair next to me, and he started curling up into a ball out of vicarious embarrassment. It was so weird. I literally thought there was going to be somebody with a knife that comes through.

I thought that maybe there's somebody offstage with a butcher knife. The whole thing was bizarre. Am I overstating it? Where were you on Katie Britt's performance? No, Tim, you, you were not overstating it. So, okay. So like all right thinking people, I did not actually watch the state of the union live. I was playing basketball during this. So I'm coming back from my basketball game and I'm playing the Katie Britt speech in the car. So I can't actually see her. and i'm in disbelief at what i'm listening to like is she actually upset i can't see her face that i got home and i watched it again and it's like oh my god this is actually for real in the car it had to feel like a prairie home companion type

thing like a really down market prairie home companion it's like is this a high school play that they're doing on that's what that was it like what was it sorry julia yaffe had the best line about katie britt she said the acting chops were somewhere between porn and high school play you know i mean i was thinking about what's something boring that you would read like the phone book nobody has nobody has phone books anymore if you went on a road trip with kat Britt, you know, and like, she just have, wouldn't it be fun to have her read the road signs? Like merge, right. Merge, right.

No left turn. No left turn. No left turn. No left turn. Unvarnished. I like, why did every syllable have influence? And then why is she in a kitchen? Why is she alone in a suburban kitchen it looks

like an unused suburban kitchen it's very clean i don't know what your kitchen looks like my kitchen doesn't look like that i have children my i have a child my kitchen looks crazy and so she's in a very clean kitchen with like a fruit bowl and the lighting is low it's like why are you why why are you in a you're senator. And then there were the talking points that they put out beforehand, where they're like, people, people should call her America's mom. It's like, why should people call her America's mom?

Like, they're just meeting her. Why not just be a senator, sit in a Senate office and give a Senate speech? That's fine. Just give a B minus Senate speech. That would be totally fine. Why are you trying to do this? In their defense though, if Katie Britt, if she is America's mom, then that would kind

of explain why America is traumatized. I mean, if your mom spoke like this to you all the time. Somebody said to me, it was like, I felt like my mom was telling me her and dad are getting divorced. So, look, we've seen so many bad responses to the state of the union i re-watched bobby jindal this morning just as a just as a level set i went back and i first thing i did when i woke up i was like am i overdoing this like i want to re-watch bobby jindal's speech seemed downright normal like just down right just even middle of the road a little weird a little muppety like

like not great not a great oratory, but compared to Katie Britt, I think it was worse than Marco and Jindal by like one standard deviation worse. Yes. Katie Britt redefined bad State of the Union response. So there's been lots of bad ones. They've been boring. They've been, you know, wooden. But Katie Britt, I think what happened here is classic overreaction for people. This is like for old people who like remember Al Gore, like he debated one way and people didn't like it. So he went completely the other way. This was an overreaction to previous bad State of the Union. So she decides to ham it up. Right. And now next year, everyone will be like, whatever you do, don't do a Katie Britt brett don't do that just be normal i think that it

ends the vp stakes for her though do you not think so i mean trump is i don't think they ever started lizard brain you don't think it ever started trump has a lizard brain for this and i just think that he looks at that and it's like like that wouldn't have even made the cut for the apprentice yeah you know if somebody tried to do a performance like that on the apprentice it would have hit the cutting room floor. He wouldn't have put it on TV. So I just think that if he knows anything, it's TV. And that was bad.

And just to be fair to Katie Britt, she's young. Everybody can give a bad speech. Famously, Bill Clinton gave a terrible speech and had to recover from it. You know, what was it? Introducing Dukakis? I can't remember. His State of the Union response wasn't that good either. If people really want to go deep in the archives,

he gave a really kind of weird one where it was sort of like, what was that, like on The Simpsons where you're doing the infomercial? He's like in a room with people and he was like walking. His one was also pretty weird. I recommend people go back and find that. But I don't think it was as weird as Katie Britt's. I don't think it's possible to be. No, and you do wonder who is in the room with her when she's rehearsing this.

Is there no one who says, can we dial this down a little bit? Maybe that's a little bit too much. Apparently, no such person was there. Yeah, I noticed that Mike Shields, former colleague of mine, was retweeting the five compliments that she got last night, so I assume he was the consultant on that one. But boy, I don't know. Rough trade. Okay, Will Salatin, anything I forgot? It's Friday. It's

people's weekends. Do you have any ponies for people for the holiday? Holiday? It's not a holiday. In New Orleans, every weekend's a holiday. So it feels like a holiday. Start drinking right now if you're in New Orleans. No, no. I don't have to do a pony because the pony was this speech. This was a good speech know cheer up everybody stop wetting the bed it was a good speech things are happy people are happy at the blog podcast i hope you enjoyed it we'll be back next week thank you will salatin we've got a great lineup of guests we'll see y'all then have a great weekend hello strange woman you sure mind me i'm just mad at me Hello, street woman

You sure mind me, I'm just mad at me You know your lips are all painted You know your wonder what might be your name Hello, strange woman You know I wonder what might be your name You know I love you, little girl It's so hard for me to explain The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brough.