The Bulwark Podcast - Beto O'Rourke: Air of Authenticity

Episode Date: August 20, 2024

Kamala's genuine smile and Walz's empathetic version of manhood is coming through loud and clear—and may explain the joy that is coursing through the Democratic Party. Meanwhile, Vance remains a popularity sinkhole. Plus, the prospects for Texas ever turning blue, Cancun Cruz, Latino voters, getting the young to the polls, and staying in to fight the good fight. Beto O'Rourke joins Tim Miller. show notes: Beto's Texas voter registration group, "Powered by People" Beto wrote about visiting Ulysses, Kansas in 2018

Hello and welcome to the Borg Podcast. I'm your host Tim Miller. I'm delighted to be here today with Democratic Dreamboat, former member of Congress from El Paso, narrowly defeated by Ted Cruz in 2018. He also ran for president in 2020 alongside Kamala Harris and now his organization, Powered by People, focuses on expanding democracy through voter registration and engagement. It's Beto O'Rourke. What's up, Beto? Yeah, thanks for having me on, broadcasting to you from Denton, Texas, where we're doing voter registration today at the University of North Texas up here in Denton. What's the North Texas mascot? It's green. It's the green machine.

Green machine. That was close. It's a green eagle, I think. All right. All right. Well, I want a full update on that, but we got to do a little news first. And I also should just put my cards on the table. I've always had a Beto soft spot.

Even when I was a Republican, I had a Beto soft spot. I loved the road trip journal that everybody else teased you about. Remember when you got in trouble if they asked you about something like, what should we do about overstaying visas? And you're like, I don't know, man. That's a tough one. I loved that. We need more politicians that do that. So anyway, I always had a Beto soft spot. So thanks for coming on the pod. I appreciate that. I didn't have a soft spot for last night's convention, though. So I'm opening some of of our you can provide maybe a more positive view for some of our democratic listeners it was a nice reminder that i'm not a democrat it felt indulgent to me there was no real message for kamala besides we are unified at least in the main politician speeches there were some good real people

speeches about abortion and other issues just felt like like a box check. What am I missing? Were you moved at all last night? I don't know that you're missing anything, at least from my perspective. And to be fair, I've never been turned on by conventions. They just seem, and they are, so scripted, so staged, and for those reasons, so sterileile there's nothing that breaks through that catches your attention that genuinely you know stirs the spirit it's predictable do you speak in 16 or 20 i can't remember no no no i've never never spoke the only convention i've been to was in 16 in philadelphia i was in congress at the time i was a delegate and really more than anything else i went to experience a convention at least once in my life see if it made a difference if I was there in person. Not so much.

I mean, cool to see friends and to meet people that you've heard about and just to take it all in as a spectacle. But yeah, I think they've lost any hope of drama or risk or surprise. But if you want to hear the old classics, if you want to sing along, it's a great show. And I had it on in the background while I was doing some work here from the hotel room in Denton last night. And there were moments that I'd look up. When AOC took the stage, she may have been, and probably most certainly was, reading what she spoke, but I felt what she was saying. There was genuine emotion and passion. And, you know, I just looked up. I was like, OK, what's going on here?

Jasmine Crockett got me as well. This rising star from Texas who was put in such a sweet spot on Monday night, tuned in and out of Biden. I loved seeing just the rapturous applause and love that was just beaming at him from every corner of that arena. I love seeing, again, I'm looking for something that's human and real and not staged. I mean, he was emotional. We saw a real person confronting something that in my lifetime and yours, we've never witnessed before. Somebody, you know, willingly handing over power when there was still a chance, no matter how small, that he could have held on to it and doing it with extraordinary grace, in my opinion. That was a real powerful moment. But yeah, otherwise, I think it's kind of, you know, for most people in this country, it's background

noise, certainly for the young voters that I'm helping to register on these college campuses across Texas. I'm going to be surprised if anyone at UNT today says, hey, how about that speech last night from Chris Coons or whoever else was speaking on the stage. Chris Coons catching strays. I need a report for that. You got to text me later and let me know what the readout was from the campus kids because there because i'm there was no stirring of spirit i'm glad we can brood together about that i will say you mentioned jasmine crockett there was one clip that i pulled from last night and i think that i hear what you're saying about biden like it was nice that he stepped aside it's good that he stepped aside he didn't have to do that he deserves credit like the speech was like a state

of the union laundry list it was kind of devoid of sentiment when talking about kamala i felt which is strange because he's a sentimental guy that that is a really good eulogizer on the other hand jasmine crockett we did have one moment so let's just listen to jasmine real quick when i visited the vice president's residence for the first time. As I approached Vice President Harris for our official photo, she turned to me and asked, what's wrong? Mind you, we'd never met. But she saw right through me. She saw the distress.

I immediately began crying. And the most powerful woman in the world, wipe my tears and listen. It's so hard for me to tell this story. She then said, among other things, you are exactly where God wants you. Your district chose you because they believe in you, and so do I. That's real. That's good. That's not a convention speech. She's good. She's really good. I know this is a truism in politics, but I don't think it's been realized by most professional politicians. People crave authenticity and honesty and your essential humanity. And that gets so covered up by, you know, no offense to the speechwriters, but to the speechwriters and the communications professionals and the folks on

your team who shield you from being human, because you can fuck up when you're human. Humans fuck up. Humans make mistakes. That always gets me. And in the same way that, you know, I kind of perked up when I saw Jasmine Crockett speaking last night, when I was in Congress, you know, in every congressional office, you have a C-SPAN feed constantly running and no one in the office is ever paying attention to it because everyone on that feed, every member of Congress is reading whatever they're saying. They're reading their outrage. They're reading their passion. They're reading their condemnation. They're reading their excitement. On those rare occasions that somebody actually was just speaking like a human and saying, um, uh, or here's what I mean to say,

or just on that rare occasion, just catching the true flow of their spirit, of their heart, of their sentiment, of what they want to say. Man, I always looked up, what's going on here? Someone's being a human being right now. And I think that really influenced for better or for worse, just how I've approached politics of just, I never want to read anything. I never want to trick you. I always want to be direct and honest, even if it's sometimes personally or politically to my detriment. And I do think that's a huge part of the appeal of Donald Trump. I think it's a huge part of the appeal of Tim Walz. who can speak directly what they're thinking, what's on their mind. No one would write the crazy shit that Donald Trump says. And no one could match Tim Walz's empathy and kindness and authenticity. And I don't know if you want to touch this one, but also Tim Walz's way of being a man in this world where you can be a football coach, you can be a 24-year Army Guard veteran,

you can check all these boxes of growing up in rural America, but you can also lead the straight gay alliance. You can also be a cool person. You can also be kind to people and you can be comfortable in all of that. I just think that is so powerful right now and helps to explain so much of the joy coursing through the party. You have something really authentically happening. And to a degree, same thing with Kamala Harris. You know, she's been covered up, scripted, put in these almost impossible situations as vice president. And now in her coming out, the smile seems genuine. The bounce in her walk is real. I feel it. And I was listening to your

program the other day about, you know, is it vibes or is it policy? And, you know, I don't know what the answer is, but certainly the feeling that we all have right now is coming from a real, authentic, honest place. And that's a great thing. Let's talk about both of those. And we'll see tonight. Obviously, there won't be a lot of unscripted moments. I do think there was a bit of a box check tonight. One, you kind of had to do the Biden and Hillary thing. And my understanding is there will be some Capitol Police folks over the next couple of days. There's going to be other

sort of real Americans. Obama's good at this. Walls is good at this. So I think that the rest of the week, maybe it'll be a little bit more to my liking. I want to go through Conley and Walls, but I guess you knew Tim Walls better, right? You served with him. You guys were on the Veterans Affairs Committee, is that right? Yeah. Yeah. Served with him for six years. Every day of those six years, we were in the minority in the House. For two of those six, Trump was president.

And that guy, again, stood apart from just about everyone else I worked with in that he'd actually stay through the committee hearings. You know, people come in, read their three-minute speech, leave. He, first guy in, last guy out, listening, not in a rush to get on cable TV. I don't know if he ever went on cable TV when I knew him in Congress. I don't know if he had any social media accounts. He was just into doing the work and being a good guy. And actually, I think keeping his head down gave him this opportunity to work with Republicans,

build these coalitions on ag issues, on VA issues, on defense issues, and put him in a position ultimately to be able to run for and win the gubernatorial race in Minnesota, where I think he's just been a phenomenal leader. So Tim, I was shocked when he got picked because this just doesn't happen in American politics that someone who's not grandstanding, who's not so naked in their ambition, who's just getting the work done and who most people had not heard of. I would tell friends who are in their most despondent period over the last year, who'd say, hey despondent period, you know, over the last year, you know, who'd say, Hey, what's, what's the future? Why should I have hope? Wait till you see

this guy, Tim Walls. I think this guy, you were saying that last year, you're saying absolutely before the veep stick. Absolutely. Check the tape. I'm a big, big fan of, of Tim Walls, but I was like, you know, maybe, you know, too smart for my own good. And was like, you know, they'll never pick him. He'll never ascend to anything higher because he just doesn't play these games. But it just turns out that's exactly what America wants, even if America didn't know it before Kamala Harris picked him. So you were rooting for him among the people? Absolutely. Absolutely. And she could not have made a bad choice in my opinion between josh shapiro and pete budaj and andy basheer and mark kelly and so many other amazing

choices it just turns out he was the best choice and i think that is absolutely clear in the last four weeks just the energy that he's brought to this let's do the manhood thing since you mentioned it yeah and it's related to the campus stuff too because i i spend a lot of time thinking about this i think that the biggest threat out there like long term is just like young men in this country right now are in a rough spot like they're being left behind from an education standpoint i think a lot of them are feeling like they don't you know they're not as fulfilled as maybe they were in prior generations maybe there are a lot of other societal factors that are going on and tim walsh is getting kind of like mocked by the

bad bro influencers right that they're like oh he's like you know tamp on tim and you know like all this sort of stuff you see from from the MAGA bro world like really trying to tear him down and I'm interested in him as kind of a model of that of like a different type of manhood so you mentioned I'm just kind of wondering how you think about all that I saw him a clip that you've probably seen as well given a talk to this football team I think it's a high school football team and you know here's a guy who was a football coach in Minnesota, took his team from, you know, the basement to the state championship. So he's got some credibility and some basis and legitimacy. And he's talking about how being on a team and playing football is not unlike voting and participating in a democracy

and being involved in politics and being an American. Like we got to be able to count on one another. We got to put in the work. It's going to be really tough, but it is absolutely worth it. And then in true Tim Walls fashion, he then like, you know, deflected the energy and the attention to Kamala Harris. And he's like, I'm playing on her team. You know, she's,. She's our leader and I've got her back. That gave me chills. Again, unscripted, it's the real thing. And I think a lot of young guys across this country can relate to that, can relate to Tim Walls, the football coach. We all had teachers or coaches or people in our lives who were like that. We had people

who were dicks and assholes and found any weakness and just exploited the shit out of it. And you're already insecure and you're trying to figure out who the fuck you are at 17, 18 years old. And people will take advantage of that. And then there are the people like Tim Walls who are looking out for you,

who still provide that stability and that kind of father figure in your life, for lack of a better metaphor, but who do so with this confidence in who they are and this kindness and really are trying to help you make it and get through. So I think your diagnosis of the challenge is spot on. There's so many young men across this country. I'm meeting a lot of them on college campuses who are just left out and left behind and don't have a tribe or a leader or someone who's fighting for them. And there are so many things that are alluring out there that will take you in when you're in that situation. You can join the bully shit on everybody else. And you're no longer the weak person.

You're going to take it to the weak person. Right. And then there's Tim Walz. And I just love that he's on the national scene right now. And you have this alternative to Trump and Vance and this toxic idea of what it means to be a man. It's maybe too big of a task for a major party VP nominee, but I just listened to you talk. I think about how they've recaptured or redefining a little bit the word freedom, right? And taking it back and talking about what freedom means in maybe a different way

than how, you know, my former Republican guys use the word freedom. I feel like there's the same thing with strength, right? Like talking about like, it's, it's strong to be a man that can, that can be a wingman for a strong woman that takes inner strength in its own way, right? Like it's strong to be a guy that can be a mentor for, you know, somebody in the gay straight alliance or a trans kid or whatever, like, and know that you might be criticized for that, right? Like there's got to be a way to sort of talk about strength in a little bit of a different way and maybe maybe tim wallace can be a model for that i don't know i think so i think so he's got a real confidence that's genuine that that he operates from that allows him to do that in advance i mean i'm not a psychologist but he

doesn't seem to have that confidence you don't think he's modeling inner male strength right now uh jd vance with the way that he's like become the butt boy of the man that he thought was going to be america's hitler you don't think that shows a lot of inner strength yeah i don't i don't think it shows any inner strength you know any you know true north any core conviction i think he's one of these guys who's who's searching and he's the kind of guy that you you wish tim walls had been in his life you, earlier on and given him this model, this path to pursue versus the one that Vance chose, where I do think, and maybe I am naive and maybe I bought something that wasn't real. But when Vance hit the scene and I read Hillbilly Elegy and I

saw some interviews with him, I was like, this guy seems really smart. I'm interested in his story. He's explaining part of the country that I'm unfamiliar with. And I'm going to keep an eye on that guy. And then to see his dissent almost in real time as he kind of surveyed the latter and what it was going to take for him to move up these rungs and that that was going to take just casting aside so many of the things that he purportedly believed in in order to move forward personally and politically, culminating or descending into this disastrous performance over the last five or six weeks as Trump's VP nominee, becoming truly one of the most hated men in American politics, a sinkhole for popularity

and public opinion on the Republican side. It's tough, but he's truly, I think, getting his just desserts for the path he's chosen and the behavior he's exhibited. He deserves it. Look, I'm not a nationalist populist or I would have stayed in the party, right? But it's one thing if you said, okay, I'm going to embrace all that. I think think we need a tough border i think we need to care about sovereignty and you know we can disagree on on the merits of these issues we're going to care more about the working class thing but in order to kind of fit in with mega he has mimicked and mirrored the mean part like he's like that's how i'm gonna get cred by being a dick to your point and like that is that's why he's i'm with you he's getting his justice so your experience in this kind of campaigning and red america and this that is that's why he's i'm with you he's getting his just desserts so your

experience in this kind of campaigning in red america and this challenge because that's another way that walls is a little bit of a different model right because you know he worked with the republicans but he's progressive you know if we're going to be on the extremes there's like a mansion model of appealing to red america that's like i'm gonna stake out some very culturally conservative viewpoints. And then there's kind of what you were trying to do, what Wallace tries to do, which is having a pretty progressive agenda, but connecting more individually, connecting on cultural matters. Talk about any lessons you have for how Democrats can do a little bit better out in West Texas

and places like that. Yeah, I don't think it's complicated, but it certainly isn't easy. The simple truth is you're not going to do better in these places if you don't show up in person. And showing up in person, literally meeting people where they are, listening to them about the issues that matter most, and then reflecting that back in what you're talking about. I'll give you an example. Public schools, going back to Wallace being a high school teacher, lunchroom monitor, football coach, public schools are the lifeblood of rural America and nowhere more so than in Texas. It's usually the largest employer in a rural county. It's the source of hometown pride. It's literally

Friday night lights. And right now, our governor, Greg Abbott, is seeking to defund these public schools, convert tax dollars into vouchers, and send them to private schools. And what we know is that the majority of voucher dollars tend to go to families whose kids are already going to private schools. So you are wealthy, you can afford it, you're going to get a little bit of a boost at the expense, especially these rural communities, where even if you could afford the difference between what the voucher pays and the tuition, there's no private school. How do you get there? There's no private school in that community. That's a winner for Democrats. But if Democrats don't show up and if Democrats literally

are not on the ballot, and I'm talking about uncontested state house and county commissioner and school board races, then we're just literally never going to win. And so in a state like Texas with 254 counties, it's a lot of work. You got to show up. You got to listen to these people. And you won't do it in a cycle. You won't do it in two cycles. You may not do it in six cycles. But if you keep showing up and you keep fighting for those issues and it's, you know, it's public education, but it's also infrastructure that gets concentrated in the big cities and never makes it to rural America. Because guess what? Republicans don't have to deliver. There's no competition in November. So if they bring home the bacon or they don't, they show up for a town hall or they never hold one. It just doesn't matter. They are guaranteed to win.

So fighting on every front, I think is incredibly important. Folks would show up at events that I'd hold in Canadian, Texas and Junction, Texas. And very often opponents would outnumber supporters, right? But even those opponents, the folks who would protest my visit would come up to me afterwards. They say, you know, Ted Cruz never visits Junction. I've never seen Greg out. I've never seen any statewide candidate or official. You're the only guy who's shown up. And it's almost this is our chance to come out and, you know, voice our frustration or excitement or whatever at anybody.

And you're the guy. And so, you know, it was my chance to listen and to learn. Yeah, sometimes to take some shit from people, but also to connect with folks who felt completely abandoned by my party, often the most vulnerable in a given community. Now they know there's a champion out there who's going to do everything he can or the next candidate she can to make sure that, you know, someone's representing them and serving them in a position of power. So it's a long, tough grind. You can't do it through money. You can't do it through digital. You can only do it in person. And not enough Democrats are doing that.

Man, you're singing my buddy Justin Canoe at the Tennessee Holler. You're singing his hymn book. If you ever want to go to Tennessee, you guys can do something together. He's working on that same thing. There's another group texas we're building to the blue texas question you can't do you can't do an interview with beto without talking about blue texas but before we do politics the other group the democrats have struggled is maybe not the right word but lost ground with is hispanic voters especially men especially closer to the border working class rio grande valley so i'm, like, how you kind of assess this, and like how the Democrats can balance people's dignity, human dignity of migrants, but also,

you know, having some semblance of order. Just on a high level, and getting down to this idea of order, in the same way that I believe that rural Texas is ripe for Democrats. In other words, they're not being represented. They're not being fought for. They're being taken for granted by Republicans. And on the issues, I think Democrats are going to win if they show up, if they campaign, if they invest. I would say the same is true in reverse in the Rio Grande Valley.

Here is a part of our state, 98% Mexican American, as reliably blue as any part of America historically. And Democrats just knew those votes were in the bank. The RGV is really hard to get to. It's a massive drive from any part of the state. You're taking two airplanes to fly there from most starting points. And so why bother to show up? I mean, those folks are with us. They're brown. You're brown. You're a Democrat. I'm going to go chase that white suburban soccer mom in the suburbs of Dallas and Collin and Denton County, and they'll just take care of themselves. A couple of Bullwark listeners taking the huge stray right there. All right. That's our base. Okay. The white suburban mom in Denton County.

We don't need to trash them. Their vote counts too. Hey, and my point is you cannot pick one over the other. You got to go fight for the white suburban soccer mom in Denton, but you also cannot take for granted those who live in McAllen or Brownsville or El Paso, Texas for for that matter. And really, Democrats did that. And they're paying a price for that. And in many of these smaller communities, you see Republicans who are out hustling, out working and out fighting for those votes. And you know what, there's going to be a consequence for that. But if I see a silver lining, it is that I hope it has awakened our party and forced us to no longer take for granted what had traditionally been a very reliable part of our electorate and to speak to the issues that you brought up. And, you know, National Democrats who pandered to Latinos by

only talking about immigration with someone whose family might have been here for eight or nine generations, you know, literally lived in McAllen, Texas before there was a state of Texas or the United States of America for that matter. You know, that may not be the driving issue for them. It may be their schools. It may be taxes. It may be the fact that there's no interstate in the Rio Grande Valley. There's no full service veterans hospital in the Rio Grande Valley. And they may say, hey, Democrats have represented me all these years. Why are they not delivering on these things that I really care about opening for Republicans? So, I mean, I think the lesson is in power, in a position of public trust, you better damn well deliver or you're going to lose that position

sooner or later. And now we must accept that no vote can be taken for granted. All of them must be earned. And the only way you're going to do that is by showing up in person, listening to and fighting for the people that you care about. And on the border, acknowledge that it is broken, that it is not working, that the system that we have is badly hurting some communities and some people. McAllen, Eagle Pass, El Paso, they're bearing the brunt of those who are coming into the United States right now. Sure, some are getting bused to Chicago and D.C. and Martha's Vineyard, and they're getting a taste of what we've experienced for the last 20, 30, 40 years, but they really have no idea.

And while we're proud of being communities of immigrants, and I truly believe it's what makes us stronger and more successful and yes, safer, very low crime rates on the U.S. side of the U.S.-Mexico border, we still have a problem. And Democrats need to say that. And then they need to offer the solution. Let's rewrite our immigration law so that there's a legal pathway for people to come here. I don't think anyone on the border begrudges anyone who wants to come to America. What pisses them off is when they come in between ports of entry, when they do so illegally. Now, I may understand that when you don't have any legal option, when you've got your three-year-old daughter in tow, when you've just traveled 2,000 miles, when you're afraid of being raped or kidnapped in sudat what is you're going to take your chances and cross the river

and get into the united states but listen to how long it took me to explain that dynamic when you're working two or three minimum wage jobs when your life is busy you're raising your own kids you just know there's a problem and there's a guy named donald trump who's going to fix it he's going to put a wall up or he's going to deport every illegal in this country. Maybe you don't like every aspect of that, but at least the guy's got a solution. I think that when Kamala Harris and Tim Walz win, they've got to put all the chips on immigration the way that LBJ did on civil rights, the way that Obama did on health care. And they've got to solve this for all the right reasons, including the moral ones. But they also have to solve it for the political albatross that will hang around the neck of every Democrat in every election going forward. And take it from me in Texas running against Greg Abbott,

who oversaw the most obscene abortion ban, who didn't change our gun laws after 21 people were slaughtered in Uvalde, who presided over a power shutdown that killed 700 people freezing to death in their homes in 2021. I could bring up any of those issues, and he'd point to the border and he'd say, there's an invasion and Joe Biden's open borders are making you less safe. And I'm the strong man who can protect you. We need to take that away by solving it. And it's really going to be up to this next administration to get that done. Yeah. And what's that? I mean, tons more asylum judges, you know, more security. Like, obviously, you know, the Harris-Walls administration will treat migrants like humans. So, you know, that side.

But like, how do you handle the order side of it? You ensure that there are legal ways to come here. So, for example, you have visa caps on certain countries that if you're in the Philippines, if you're in India, if you're in Mexico, you'll be in a line to do this the right way for 20 years. It doesn't justify, but it helps to explain why some people say, fuck the line. I want to be with my family member. I want to get out of this desperate situation. I'm going to cross the river and take my chances in the U.S. Again, I don't condone it, but it explains why that's happening. If you can provide a regular pathway for that person to come

here to do a background check, to find gainful employment, to take care of themselves without costing us at public expense, it's a win-win. That immigrant and their family are doing better. We are certainly doing better economically, culturally. These small towns that I'm talking about in Texas are revived primarily by immigrants moving in as so many of those born in the small towns are moving out. So you've got to find the legal pathways to do it. It's not going to happen through presidential decree. You can't tweak it at the margins as we've been doing for the last 30 years. You really need a president to burn every ounce of political capital they have

to push something like that through. And it also raises the urgency on congressional races and Senate races. You know, three of the most competitive House races are in Texas. The biggest pickup opportunity for Democrats in the Senate happens to be with Colin Allred against Ted Cruz. So, you know, that governing coalition could get something done. If we don't get it done, I just think, you know, you have the twin problems of unmitigated migration and uncontrolled border and a political liability that will continue to sink the fortunes of Democrats. OK, let's get to the Ted Cruz, Colin Allred race. I know it's, you know, probably it's cold comfort for you. But I was last weekend with a friend who was in the hospitality industry in Austin. So the Ted Cruz walked into one of their restaurants and

everybody started flipping him off. He was so annoyed that he left. This was maybe a week or two ago. So you know, there's at least some social stigma which we appreciate here i mean i like colin allred he's a good guy he's very bulwark friendly he's centrist he's middle of the road you know poll numbers don't look that great i understand the frustration of some democrats or the feeling of hopelessness when it's like they've passed this draconian abortion law, which is insane. You mentioned Uvalde, you know, we could talk about the pardon of Daniel Perry, like all this disgusting stuff, the energy grid, and yet it feels static. Like why? Like what's happening? What can Colin Allred do? What can other Democrats do, do you think, to try to turn the tide? And with Cruz, to add to all those

policy and governing failures that you outlined, I mean, when I ran against him in 18, really the most resonant attack was that it was just a wasted seat. I mean, the guy was famous for shutting down the government over Obamacare. He was blowhard, bloviating on cable TV. It just wasn't getting anything done. But since then, I mean, this guy helped lead the insurrection effort on the 6th of January 2021, continued even after the Capitol had been attacked. And then probably most damning later that year in February, when you have that winter freeze, when the electricity grid literally fails, when people are without power, heat, electricity, or running water because their pipes have frozen, not for hours, but for

days, and people are freezing to death in their homes. This guy gets on a plane, goes to Cancun, and stays at the Ritz-Carlton. The picture of his dog at the screen door that he left behind. I mean, there's just no one more callous and more heartless and really more despised on a personal level than Ted Cruz in the state of Texas. What does he have going for him? I think, you know, going back to our conversation about masculinity, he projects what I think is a kind of a false, you know, front of masculine strength. Like I'm just going to be mean. I'm going to be cruel. I'm going to say terrible things about people. I'm going to,

you know, whatever happens to those migrants, they had it coming. They deserved it. Can you imagine Ted Cruz throwing a punch? Can you just imagine Ted Cruz throwing a punch? No. Like this is ridiculous. So that's, that's what he's got. And that's it. And I think it is so hollow, so false, and so beatable. And what I know Colin has to do, what I know Colin has in him, is one, to show the contrast. Here's what it means to lead. Here's what it means to govern. I beat Pete Sessions, who no one thought we could take out by running a grassroots campaign in 18,

by appealing to Republicans and independents as well as Democrats. I governed in a bipartisan manner when I was in Congress. And I'm going to fight for you no matter who you are and where you live in the state of Texas. This guy, Ted Cruz, you'll find him in Cancun the next time the shit hits the fan. But the question is going to be, can he raise enough and deploy enough money to get that message out to enough Texans? And can he generate enough excitement to convince people that he can win? It's almost a confidence game. And maybe that just describes politics in general. But, you know, if people believe this is possible, then they'll act like it's possible. If they think it's impossible, then why get my hopes up? Why have my heart broken again by the state of Texas? I'm just going to sit this one out. That's his challenge. How you fix that,

I mean, it's more of an art than a science. And the clock is ticking and I'm hoping that we see a lot more of Colin Allred, see him in more of these unscripted moments and see him connecting with people who really need to hear this message and see him connecting with people who really need to hear this message and see that conscious i'm confident we will i just want to see it as soon as we possibly can do you ever get just like pissed or depressed about it or i just like the

texas thing is just so i mean it's so striking like the daniel perry part in is so fucking despicable and it's just like do you ever just think like, how are my fellow Texans going along with this? Like, how can we not just get rid of this asshole? Like, I don't know. Like, how do you grapple with that? Yeah. I mean, I think this thought has run across, you know, a lot of people's minds in Texas.

Am I in the right place? Should we leave? And, you know, we're, we've got three kids in the public schools in El Paso. We lead the nation in school shootings, you know, more than two years after you validate, nothing's changed to make it, you know, any less likely that happens to any other kid in any other school. You know, my daughter is 16 years old. Am I raising her in the right place where she can't legally make decisions about her own body and her own future?

You know, our democracy is under attack. Unlike any other place in America, it's harder to vote in Texas. I mean, there are lots of reasons to go somewhere else. But, you know, I come back to if we go, then who's left? And if I care about this shit and I do care about this shit, I mean, Texas is where the fight is. And if you flip it around that way, it really actually is exciting. I have a reason to wake up in the morning. You know, there's no place in America where abortion is under greater attack, where it has more dire consequences.

We lead the developed world in a maternal mortality crisis. I know what I'm fighting for. Those poor fuckers who wake up in Boston or San Francisco every morning, what the hell are they fighting for? I mean, I'm joking. San Francisco's got some problems. I mean, I'm clearly joking, but like, you know, this is where the fight is. It is, it's life and death in Texas. And I really do believe strongly to my core that the majority of Texans are not okay with the abortion ban, with the power grid failure, with the infatuation with the NRA at the expense of school kids, with this attack on public education. They're just not reflected and showing up. And we're less

a red state, I'd argue, than we are a non-voting state. The trick, of course, is how you change that. What I'm trying to do with Powered by People is not only go to these college campuses and register young people to vote, and we're doing that, but also to personally stay in touch with these young voters, help them to navigate these insane, suppressive, intimidating voting laws. And also because I'm not a 501c4 or 501c3, I'm a partisan organization. I'm also like, hey, and here are some people you may want to vote for if you care about making your own decisions about your own body that i believe will be an effective pathway to building up a consistently voting majority in texas that really

reflects who we are as a state you don't just ever have one sunday where you just like lay under the covers and you're just like i can't like fuck this i I can't do this. I'm going to watch it. I'm going to watch a sad movie. I'm going to watch blue Valentine or like Manchester by the sea or something. And just like, kind of maybe take a gun. Yeah. All that. I mean, there, there are really, really tough days in, in Texas. Look, I'm, I'm wired for optimism. It's, it's going to make the victory all the sweeter when it occurs. We know it's happening. And you alluded to this at the outset. But, you know, my favorite trend line is Obama losing Texas by 16 points in his reelect, Hillary losing it by nine, Biden losing it by five and a half. And all that happens without any outside investment from the DNC or national donors. We export cash to campaigns around the country. It doesn't come into the state. Those candidates didn't spend a second campaigning or rallying. That's just the natural trajectory of Texas. I'll give you a data point. In Georgia in 2020, $28 were spent on a likely Democratic voter, you know, $28 per voter in Georgia in that year.

In Texas, it was $7 were spent per likely Democratic voter that year. You know, one quarter of the amount spent. Look what happened in Georgia. Biden wins the electoral college vote. Warnock and Ossoff win in 2021. In Texas, we got pretty damn close for Texas, five and a half points. But if we had real investment, if we had consistent year in, year In Texas, we got pretty damn close for Texas, five and a half points. But if we had real investment, if we had consistent year in, year out organizing, if we keep fielding great candidates up and down the ballot, we're going to get there. I mean, it is going to happen. And it explains why Republicans try so hard through gerrymandering and voter suppression and closing polling places and all the other stuff they do to keep especially young people

from voting. It explains why they do it. They're afraid. They see what I see. They know it's going to happen sooner or later. They're going to try to forestall it for as long as they can. I'm trying to rush it as quickly as I can. One other question, just strategic. I'm curious how you think about this because obviously our incentives are maybe a little different. I'm trying to encourage my man Adam Kinzinger to run as a democrat in texas i just think that like never trumpers that are moderate can win primaries as long as they pass some basic threshold issues that you know democrat you know obviously you can't be for the five-week abortion ban he wouldn't be if you're saying the challenge is you're a non-voting state we got to get people

motivated you know maybe having somebody like adam or Colin isn't right, right? Because like, they're trying to kind of win over the soft swing voters. How do you find that balance? Right? Like, do you think that it's an Adam type switching parties? Or do you think it's a Beto type, you know, motivating people? Or is there a Goldilocks? Yeah, no, yeah, I think it's a false choice. I would love for Adam to run in Texas. I got to know him at a distance when we were both in Congress together. You know, his biography, his credentials, his patriotism, you know, unimpeachable. He's the real deal. Colin, the real deal. Jasmine Crockett, you know, maybe on the left side of that political spectrum, the real deal doesn't get sure more real i mean all comers welcome biggest tent that you can possibly put up and and then just get out there and fight charisma and vibes and both you know you got to do both you got to register and you got to persuade it's like absolutely it's just that's the nature of it just two points of personal privilege for i lose you all right so i loved the beto blog i was going i reread it i reread it last night you're uh 20 was it was it after the 2018 loss that's right sorry

to bring up hard times but there were some people that were like you know you're getting teased on twitter because you know for being emo and there's this one picture that i loved and i think you're in ulysses yeah you're on the ulysses with uh these three guys with beards i don't know you remember these guys? I do. I remember that bar. Yeah. Yeah.

And so I was reading this one. And you're driving around. You're watching them with the kids. You're trying to grapple with all this. And some people are like, oh, maybe this is a little. I used indulgent at the beginning. So maybe it's a little indulgent. But I felt like that resonated with me.

It's so much. Because I was just like, we went through this period where the country elects fucking donald trump like the worst american they elect and then you go to a midterm and it's like we're gonna elect fat ted cruz he's like a callous podcast host with no self-respect or self-dignity and it's like why i wanted to know why too like i was like we were we were having our first kid at the time adopting our first kid so i you know it wasn't the right time for this but i was like i want to go on the road trip with beto i want to meet strangers at the bar and try to figure it out so i'm just curious looking back on that how you reflect on it if there's anything you felt like you learned or

you do differently or any other thoughts about about that period you know the the decision just to get on the road it was such a strange time, Tim. I had just lost the Senate race that by the end, and I'm not like this, but you know, I don't count my chickens before they're hatched. When it comes to anything I'm personally doing, I don't allow myself to claim or speak what I want to happen. I just want to do the work. And if the work pays off, we're going to get there. But I knew we were going to win. I could feel it.

I could see it in the polling. I saw it in the lines that people were forming to vote early, to vote on election day. We are going to do this. And when we didn't, man, for two years, I've been running with this amazing team and all these great people in Texas, this impossible race at breakneck speed, going to every county, doing six or seven counties a day, just from dawn to dusk, killing ourselves on the road. And all of a sudden that thing comes to a stop. And the entropy, the physics of it, you're still moving through space and time, but everything around you, the election, the campaign, it's all stopped. moving through space and time, but everything around you,

the election, the campaign, it's all stopped. And I just thought that was the end. I'm going to finish out my term in Congress. I'm going to go back to Texas and I don't know what the hell I'm going to do, but we'll figure it out. And then there was this interest in what we had done in Texas that we'd gotten so close that we'd put this coalition together. And to your point about Kinzinger and others who might broaden the tent for Democrats, half a million voters in Texas in 18 voted for Greg Abbott for governor, and those same half million voted for me for U.S. Senate. Half a million ticket splitters, arguably Republicans, are at a minimum independence. And folks started to look at that and say, hey, you know, maybe this is the answer

to Trumpism. You know, maybe there's an authenticity and an honesty to this guy and his ability to speak without it being focus group tested or, you know, polled in advance and the coalition that he's brought together. And I thought, you know, maybe there's some truth to that. I'm going to start to think about that. And, you know, in hindsight, what the fuck were we thinking coming off of two years, killing ourselves in that campaign, and then turning our focus to an enterprise that is literally the most daunting in the world politically, for which you need to prepare for years. And most people who do it prepare for years, or in Biden's case, their entire lifetime, and somehow think that this is going to be a good idea. But as I was trying to sort through all that,

I knew I had to get on the road. And I knew that I had to go meet people and listen to people. And I thought from that, I was going to be able to divine some answers about what I should do next, and whether I'm the right person to be involved in what's next. So did you define any answers that were helpful for you that were maybe not helpful for your presidential campaign? You know, that bar in Ulysses, Kansas is a great example. Going in there, none of those folks are Obama or Biden voters and may not have been Beto voters, but having a couple of beers with them, we're all friends. We're all Americans. We're all kidding each other. I stayed in touch with two of the guys over the years that I met in that bar. Really?

I loved it. And it just reinforced for me that showing up, being with people, politics, which is people, is what I love. There's some part of it that I'm good at and I want to do it. And when we took the show on the road to Iowa, I was like, you know, fuck the celebrity and, you know, whatever people thought of me as, you know, on the rise or, you know, on the decline or whatever, I'm going to avoid all that. And I'm going to do it on the ground. I'm going to earn this and, you know, huge mistake on my part to, and it's going to be obvious to you to ignore the national media, Morning Joe, all these folks who wanted to have me on. And Beto, what are you all about? What do you want to do for this country? In my mind, I was just going to stay on the road, meet people in these bars and cafes,

in the barbershops, and just really understand their stories, what connected with them most, and then reflect that back on the campaign. And that's obviously just not how it works. So yeah, I learned a lot. I learned a lot that hopefully I can grow from. I learned a lot about what I love and what keeps me in politics, even though I'm not a candidate anymore and I'm not doing this for money and I'm doing it as a volunteer. And it's why I'm talking to you from Denton right now and not Chicago. I mean, I want to be where the people are, the folks that I need to be listening to, these young voters who are going to decide the outcome of this election, and then be doing the work that makes me feel good and fulfilled, registering them,

staying in touch with them, and turning them out. Yeah, man, I don't know. I think those relationships are kind of an end unto themselves in the fulfillment. And I think that the country needs more of it. I always just come back to the w the bush line from after that police shooting it was in texas actually i think that was where he said that we when we think of the other sides we think of their worst examples and when we think of ourselves we think of our best intentions and like we have to break out of that and you can't break out of that it's easy to think of the worst examples when you only see you know megan kelly's tweets you know those are the worst examples so the other side it's a lot harder when you only see, you know, Megyn Kelly's tweets. You know, those are the worst examples.

So the other side, it's a lot harder when you're meeting the guys and Ulysses, you know? And so anyway, I appreciate that you were out there doing that. Last thing, you're a music guy. You're in a punk band, right? Yeah.

Maybe even dated an indie musician of some renown. So we end the show with a thematic musical choice inside of, I don't know, man. Do you have a Chicago band or a Texas band you're liking? A new indie band you're into? A song that's speaking to you?

Are you listening to MJ Linderman at all or Dead? Do we need to exchange indie band recs? I just want to put a quarter in the machine. What are you listening to on the road besides my podcast? Besides your besides your podcast apparently you're listening to and this is going to fly in the other direction but okay great i saturday night went to go see jason isbell and zach brian yeah at the cowboy stadium at my buddies were there yeah my buddies were there at the at&t center jason isbell he's just one of my favorite humans on the planet. One of the best songwriters, one of the best writers in terms of the lyrics and the poetry. And as you saw last

night, I just think one of the most phenomenal performers. Zach Bryan, this is kind of getting back to the bar and Ulysses, not someone that I thought I was necessarily into. My daughter introduced me to him, brought his music into the house seeing that guy in his band live absolutely blew me away i i am the biggest zach bryan fan in the world his songwriting also extraordinary but uh but i'm trying to keep some indie cred on this podcast i gotta play out zach i gotta play a pop country you can't i can't do it okay i can't have i can't have pop country? I can't do it. I can't have pop country as the outro today. Just in honor of Tim Walls, either the replacements or some Husker Du out of the Twin Cities. Oh yeah, Husker Du is so good. All right, I'll find one that is inspiring. Do you have any other

final thoughts? Any other items of wisdom? Ways that people can help support what you're doing there with Powered by People? Yeah. If you're in Texas, we'd love to have you as a volunteer deputy registrar to help us sign people up, get them on the rolls. Even if you're out of Texas, you can volunteer with us. But that's what it's going to take. I think in this age, we try to sell one another on ease and convenience. And don't lift a finger. All you have to do is send in your 25 bucks or tweet this thing, or no, you have to get out in the 108 degree sun. That's how hot it was yesterday in Arlington, Texas. You got to be out there, meet total strangers, get them on the

rolls and turn them out. It's not easy work, but it is so deeply fulfilling and absolutely necessary if we're going to win. So if you're interested in the work, we'd love to have you. Beto O'Rourke, man, thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it. It was a pleasure. Come back soon, all right, man? You got it. Adios. Thank you. All right. Thanks so much to Beto. That was just a joy for me. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Tomorrow, we have somebody else that might consider himself kind of dreamy, but I would never say that. And I think you'll be enjoying that one too so we'll see y'all then have a wonderful tuesday peace Make it all seem worthwhile But you too girl, you should know it

These plants never live Movements you show around Lives all around I'm going to make it You can have this town mine I'm going to make it You're gonna make the hill after ground Who can take the world away when you smile? Who can take another hit day

And suddenly make the ocean world smile? Children, if you should know it Express your love But make you so well That's all I know And you should know it Express it all Moment you saw it And that's all I know You could have it some way You're gonna make it after all After all

After all After all The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.