The Bulwark Podcast - Bill Kristol and Ro Khanna: Two Governments Acting with Impunity

Episode Date: July 13, 2026

The Trump administration is going full speed ahead on its authoritarian project to intimidate the media and the business world—and to gun people down in the streets. And in Israel, Netanyahu is allowing settler militias to run amok in the West Bank, killing Palestinians and destroying their villages and property. Rep. Khanna joins Tim to describe his own personal encounter with the private armed groups near Hebron. Plus, the mixed legacy of Lindsey Graham, Trump is trying to pretend he didn't sign a deal giving Iran management of the Strait of Hormuz, and the Dems have a real chance to weaken Todd Blanche and the whole administration.Bill Kristol and Rep. Ro Khanna join Tim Miller.Show notes: Monday's "Morning Shots" Bill's "Bulwark on Sunday" with Sarah NOBL gives you real travel peace of mind — security, design, and convenience all in one. Head to NOBLTravel.com for 46% off your entire order! #NOBL #ad

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happening this week. I'm at a hotel in Des Moines, so we got a big guest for you on tomorrow's show. Today, we have a double header. In segment two, I added in Congressman Rokana, who did a trip to the West Bank last week with my former FYPod colleague Cam Cassie, colleague, co-host, buddy, friend, mini-me. What they went through is pretty remarkable. We kind of dig right into it in the conversation, So just for a little bit of context, Roe and Cameron went when Congress was on recess to visit various parts of the West Bank that was in one of these fact-finding, understanding missions to see what's happening there. There is increasing concern about settler violence in the West Bank. There's been a particular uptick on this since the Iran War where there's a sense that settlers, Israeli settlers, kind of act with impunity in the West Bank. and, you know, even, boy, I ask a real question from one of his critics that he blanches at,

but even that critic in the question, a very pro-Zionist person I follow on social media, is like, man, I'm even not really thrilled about everything that's happening in the West Bank. And then he goes on to some critics, criticisms of a row. So, like, that is kind of the context of their trip. And then we get into, you know, a lot of details on what they saw. And hopefully that's valuable for folks. So that is segment two. First, I got Bill Crystal.

Obviously, we talk a bunch about the passing of Lindsay Graham. Since we recorded Governor Henry McMaster, who is just such a good old boy, South Carolina, good old boy. He's what John Kennedy wishes he was, just really authentic foghorn leghorn. I believe you not, he endorsed John Huntsman in the 2012 primary. So I got to know Henry really well. Back then, he then went with Trump. Everybody ended up going with Trump.

Everybody abandoned me. You know, it's just what happens? Life of an ever-trumper. So me and Henry don't talk anymore. But Henry is announcing Lindsay's temporary replacement this afternoon. So by the time this pot is out, you'll probably see who that is. And then there'll be a primary for potentially a permanent replacement, though. That person will have to go up against Annie Andrews in the general election in November.

So Bill and I kind of handicapped that a little bit during the pod. But by the time this is out, you guys will know who the interim senator is. So there you go. Big show today. Up next, Bill Crystal, stick around. Hello and welcome to the Bullard podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is Monday.

So I'm, of course, here with editor-at-large Bill Crystal. A bunch of news to get to, obviously the biggest shocking news over the weekend was the death of Senator Lindsey Graham, which many of us woke up to Sunday morning. I know, Bill, you talked about this, some with Sarah yesterday on your conversation, but I know folks are going to be interested in hearing on thoughts on this. And there's a lot to be said about Lindsey Graham. But I don't know, maybe you can just kick us off. Obviously, I was saddened by his death.

But to be honest, I was saddened by the last, what, eight years of his life, eight nine years of his life. Yeah, 10 maybe. 10 maybe. Yeah, well, he voted for McMullen. I forgot about this. He had voted for Evan McMullen in 2016. And so he was hanging in there, you know, as an anti-Trumper, but it changed, I guess, early 2017 he met with Trump. And I knew Lindsay pretty well, about 20 years ago.

We were neocon, McCain acolytes, both of us, I would say, supporters of the war in Iraq. You met you know the secret meetings that you all met with the global. But that was the, that wasn't such a small group at the time, 75 senators or something you wrote it for the war in Iraq. What was small group was those who had supported the war and then were willing to criticize Bush's conduct of the war. and Rumsfeld and General Casey. And McCain, of course, was on the lead on that in early September in 2003. The Weekly Standard was with him. We were the only conservative magazine or journal who was with him on that.

Everyone else was still in, you know, Bush and Mumsthal's a great mode. And so really, it was honestly McCain and Lindsay and then I'm not the same level, but me and sort of weekly standard guys people. So I got to know Lindsay pretty well in those next three, four years. And I'd say he was a very smart man who, could study policy very quickly, and also was very politically shrewd, especially on the internal mechanics of the Senate, but also in terms of sort of framing arguments and stuff.

So I talked to Lindsay a lot because McCain was very busy, he's a very famous guy. I mean, I love McCain, but Lindsay was the guy you'd call and say, hey, I think there's a story here that shows that we need to, that Rumsfeld's failing and that we need a surge. Or if you heard the McMaster's come back from the city he was in in 2005 in Iraq and has a story about how counterinsertricacy could work. I mean, just all kinds of stuff.

I must have talked to Lindsay more than I really had the other member of Congress in those years, or maybe in the entire time I've been in Washington. And we stayed in cordial touch. And I remember talking to him in 2015 and 16 when he was running for president. And not so much in the last eight years. Yeah, this is the thing about Lindsay is that he just, he also was a political animal and he loved it. And he loved politics. He loved strategizing.

And this probably ends up being part of his downfall, right? You know, kind of a tragic flaw almost of like why he ends up going along with Trump after being so clear-eyed about him in 2015 and 16 is he loved the game of politics. I had basically the same experience with him, but a decade later with the Jeb campaign, he drops out in 2016, he endorses Jeb, and he's calling me all the time.

It was like little ideas, little things that they should do, you know, how to go after Trump, what the things that he was said about Trump and those phone calls, like, you know, made us look mild. And he hated Trump and was always like, thinking about both tactical and messaging things that Jebj could say or that we could send him out to say. And, you know, I've said this before, but he also just was really jovial and fun to be around.

And you see this from the Democratic senators that say nice things about him. And for good reason, which I'll get to the complaints. You know, folks on the Internet get mad at the Democratic senators for saying this. But, like, he just is funny and friendly. And, like, that's not true of some other Republican senators who are just nasty people. You know, and Lindsay would come up and Jeb were in last place. And, you know, I remember one time we had Eric Cantor with us on a Tuesday, driving around the car.

And he was such a fucking Debbie Downer. And I called the campaign manager and I was like, send me Lindsay. I was like, I need someone to keep Jeb's cheer up. You know, Lindsay comes up the next day and he tells us this long story about how the little people of America were protesting him one time because he said something about midgets or something. And he's like, they were in my office. And he's talking this hilarious. story about how I'm like opening up drawers and they're popping out of there and maybe inappropriate,

but it was needed. It was funny. And we needed laughs. When you're in last place on a campaign, your brother was president, you need some laughs. And so that was just kind of Lindsay. And, you know, I wrote about this in the 24 campaign, not like you. And after he went on with Trump, I never talked to him again. And then I saw him at the debate in 24. And it was one of those things where it's like, his brain just was moving a second slow. And he sees me, he recognizes a familiar face. And he's and he like smiles and walks up to me and then he remembers who I am and then he starts like yelling at me about about abandoning Republicans and Trump and how I should be ashamed and all this and I start yelling at him and like I go to walk away and like I turn around and he was like but you know you were right about the debate though he was his debate team was a disaster and then he tries to like make up with me and Josh with me and pat me on the shoulder like that's just that was Lindsay you know I mean he could call somebody you know an asshole and then you know to go hang out with them after. There's good and bad to that, right?

There are some elements of that in Washington that I think is missed. Like, there are other elements of it. If it gone too far can lead you astray to end up becoming what he was, which was like the sidekick to a guy who was basically an attack on everything that he said he cared about. And, you know, he was like, well, if I can do this and play with him, then maybe I can get him to change his views on certain things. It seems like he did at times, like have influence on Trump.

but it's like the question of like, what does that get you in the end? And, you know, you end up in the situation. Kinsinger was talking about this yesterday where he's like, I think Lindsay maybe thought he'd outlast Trump and could, you know, do recompense. And that didn't happen. And so, you know, and Sarah talked about this yesterday. It was like, you want to live your life in a way that when people are eulogizing you, they don't have to do this, right?

Where they say, well, you know, he had these good traits, but then also, you know, He ended up being a sidekick to somebody who, you know, Lindsay, in addition to the war, everybody thinks of foreign policy, but it was a huge proponent for immigration reform with McCain. That's another thing who in McCain were on, you know, and then he ends up being, you know, whatever, the golf cart sidekick to a guy who's opening up gulags and has just despicable detention centers in this country and, you know, is doing blood libel on Haitians. And so that's the sad part about all of it with him. And, you know, here we are. So I don't know. Anything else?

No, agreed. I mean, it isn't, it isn't that way doubly sad, isn't it? I mean, that obviously anyone dying suddenly when he's healthy, he just got back from Ukraine, where I think he was consistent and probably did some good and got Trump in the right direction a little more. Tom Allenowski told me yesterday, I guess, that Lindsay had really personally saved a lot of the foreign aid budget, both in Trump's first term, and then this past year, after Doge did all of his damage, as chairman, I guess, of the Senate of the Foreign Operations Subcommittee of Appropriations, so we controlled the budget. So he did a lot of good, some good behind the scenes by being and having credibility with Trump and with the Republican Party in general. But the price is awfully

great, wasn't it? And not personally to him, but also, I'm curious what you think of this. We'll get off, Lindsay maybe, but he was really anti-Trump and really close to McCain and an impressive senator, not your routine senator. And when he decided to throw his ladder in with Trump, I feel like it opened the door to an awful lot of other people, not just in the Senate and in the House, but in sort of conservative ink world, you know. Yeah, I'll let you blame Blunsey on that one. I give that bag to Chris Christie.

Chris Christie was the one who endorsed Trump and set the, you know, kind of started the path for more moderate and establishment types to come around on Trump. So I don't know. We could do 2016 recriminations forever. The Lindsay story is really just, It's sad and it's disappointing. And, you know, it's just the nature of it.

I want to get into the policy and the political implications. I do want to do one more point of personal privilege. I think a lot of giddy gay jokes about Lindsay out there. And many people send them to me thinking I'm going to like them. And I like a good joke. There were some of funny Lindsay jokes, you know. Somebody tweeted, check your poppers. Bill, you don't have to know what that is.

But that was a funny joke. I thought other times there's just a lot of mean stuff that, I don't know, lefty folks like, here's my excuse to make the gay jokes I don't get to make around my friends. And I don't know. I'm pretty skeptical that Lindsay had a whole list of prostitutes that he was sleeping with. Like people say, Lindsay didn't have that much money. He became very famous after he sold his soul to Trump for ill. And anyway, that's where I'm out on all that.

All right, everybody, you know I'm on the road a lot. I'm trying to be in my hole as much as possible, you know, to give you guys the best podcast. content, but there's a big world out there. It's hard to cover politics, just sitting in a dark room in Louisiana. So I got to get out here among the people. I'm on the road right now. I'm in Des Moines. We got a very special guest for tomorrow's show. So get excited for that. But no matter how much I travel, like, I'm a mess. It gets annoying. Have I ever told you the story about the one time where I sat next to the lady on the plane and then I spilled an entire bottle of water on her seat and and she had to help me clean it up.

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Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Before we go to the like the replacements and the Senate votes, you did mention he just come back from Ukraine. There's that Russia's sanctions bill that's been sitting out there for whatever, the whole Trump term, basically, that Lindsay was pushing. He said, I can't die now. I still need to do the Russian sanctions, tragically, to his staff apparently. He said he was sick and he said he wasn't feeling good, but he wanted to meet the press, another classic Lindsay. and then he'd go to get it checked out after. But Trump had expressed some interest in that sanctions bill.

I don't know. There was another round of bombing in Ukraine. I don't know exactly what's happening in Trump's head. I mean, obviously he's been Russia somewhere between enthusiastic and sympathetic times neutral over the last decade, but year and a half in particular. But he did want to get this solved in day one. I don't know. I wonder if this creates any opening for that.

maybe that's a false hope. I don't know. Do you have any thoughts on that? Yeah, I'm sort of doubtful. I mean, Trump, when he described his final conversation with Lindsay claimed that Lindsay wanted to talk about the Save America Act, which is possible, I suppose. It also seems to me if Lindsay's just got back to. Brett Baer suggested that we rename it the Lindsay Graham Save America Act, which would be about what Lindsay Graham kind of deserves for that to be his tribute. But anyway. But I mean, I think there was some reporting from when Lindsay was in Ukraine that he had bipartisan an agreement and the Trump administration was okay now with the bill. You'd think that might have

be why Lindsay would have called Trump, having literally returning that day, I think, from Ukraine, but Trump, of course, doesn't mention it. And I'm sort of dubious that thing's going to go anywhere. Me too, but what, you know, everyone's wrong. You look for a silver lining. Maybe this is the silver lining with Lindsay's death now, South Carolina law means they have to have another primary. That's not going to get resolved for a little bit. McConnell sent a proof of life picture yesterday. day with a newspaper in it that didn't mention Lindsay Graham. It was kind of a weird picture and statement. But in the statement, he also said he can't come back to the Senate soon.

So, you know, we have the Todd Blanche confirmation hearing this week, assuming McConnell is not going to be able to get back to vote for him. That means now 52 votes in the Senate. Bill, explain to us what is happening with South Carolina, now that Lindsey Graham has passed away, his replacement, and how that may impact things. I mean, I think Governor McMaster will appoint an interim senator to replace Lindsay like today. And I assume that John Thune will get him sworn in tomorrow.

So the administration, Vice President Vance will swear him in. I guess that would be how it works. The other thing is the primary for Lindsay won the primary for his reelection. They have to do a rerun of that and that will happen throughout late July and August. But yeah, so I think that they'll have someone there who will be a safer vote for Trump. Even a rubber stamp, yeah, probably. But if McConnell doesn't come back, it's 52, not 53, which means they can only afford to lose three Republicans. I think Murkowski will vote against Blanche.

And so they have to pick up Collins and one or two others. And I don't think that's undoable vote this morning. And Sarah's argued on our website. And we argued in our little podcast yesterday, too. Epstein is the one thing that could really break it open against Blanche, I think. And I hope the Democratic senators have enough sense to focus their questioning on that. He was at the absolute center of the cover-up from that sit-room meeting on July 17th to him flying a week later down to meet with Maxwell.

and basically get her to say nice things about Trump and then moving her to a cushy place a week later. And so they really need to see if they can't get him squirming on that and generate maybe a couple of viral clips on Wednesday. So he testifies Wednesday. Thursday they have the additional witnesses, you know, how they usually do that. They're normally various law professors or former, you know,

whatever Justice Department types. I know, I believe the Democrats are going to use one of their, I think it's two slots for an Epstein survivor. Actually, they should probably use both of them as who cares if some liberal lawyer opposes Todd Blanche. But anyway, that's courageous of an Epstein survivor to testify there with all these, not senators. Well, not all of them will be friendly to whoever they are. And that could be a dramatic moment. If the Blanche hearing becomes a hearing about Epstein and the Trump administration's cover-up of Epstein,

to which Blanche was a central player, I think there's a real chance he could lose. But I think almost as important, it also puts Epstein back in front and center for this November. And there are a whole bunch of senators who will have to vote for Blanche who are on the ballot in November. And I think including Collins and Maine and Sullivan and Alaska, but also Ohio and Florida. And that's one of the state that I'm now forgetting with an incumbent Republican who's at some risk, well, maybe even like Marshall in Kansas. I mean, I just think it becomes a, you know, they are voting to continue not just everything else, all the other bad things Blanche is doing a justice, but to continue the Epstein cover up. And I think that would be pretty effective

that might be not an insignificant part of the Democratic campaigns against those senators in November. If Democrats won the Senate, that would be a very good thing in terms of checking Blanche's lawlessness. So I think this is a win-win for the Democrats. They just need to really go after Blanche. If they beat him, they beat him, that's good. If they don't beat him, they weaken him. They weaken Trump's assault on the rule of law. And they make the case for a Democratic Senate.

I agree with you that Epstein is the most potent politically with the Republicans because there's vulnerability there. I do wonder, you know, if you look at, and like Susan Collins is going to be on board for all this, and she's going to have to carry the baggage, and that'll be the job of whoever replaces Graham Platner in the main Senate race to use against her. There is like that other category of Tillis, Cornyn, Cassidy. You don't want to put hope in any of these people, really, but, you know, if McConnell can't vote there, if Markowski is out, you know, now you only need a couple. I just think the general independence of the DOJ is also worth, like, really exploring. Like, this is that Trump's personal attorney, like the investigation of foes. Is this argument worthwhile in getting Republican senators?

No, it should be spent less on than Epstein. But, like, the Jim Comey indictment, right? The Jim Comey indictment is so embarrassing that I do think it's worth trying to embarrass him over it. It's just really the seashells is all they're. have. They're going after a former FBI director over a seashell post, and it's preposterous and insulting. And it, I think, demonstrates that he is working at the direction of the president. And I think that that's an important kind of, even if he gets confirmed, thing to demonstrate as you go forward and make the corruption case against this administration

as far as when other stuff is happening. So I guess I would throw that on top of your point on Epstein. No, I think that's fair enough. And I think both of us are sort of focused on the fact it's kind of unlikely it'll be defeated, not impossible, but unlikely, but very important to weaken him and to weaken Trump in a sense and to highlight the abuses of justice just going forward. We have two and a half more years of this administration. And the more that the public is sort of awakened to what's being done, the better the chances of a Democrat is winning the Senate in November, the better the chances of stopping some of these abuses or slowing them down. I'm on all these calls with wonderful liberal lawyers who really are appalled and former Justice Department officials

are polled by, as they should be, by Blanche. But they're sort of very focused on how do we beat him, and could we get grassroots support in North Carolina and stuff. To get fresher-tillus and I don't know, that's going to be tough, tough to beat him in general. But weakening him, the weakening, therefore, the administration highlighting is both is important in the next two months in the run up to November, 26, but then important for the next couple of years. Yeah, Maxwell and Comey just stand out as things that are very easy for people understand, you know, that you can clip and have short videos for people to be able to watch and consume. I do think sometimes I watch these hearings and it's like, you have these long,

meandering questions and statements. And it's just like making the answer for this stuff. We will obviously be moderated that very closely this week. And I do think that the status of McConnell is potentially important there. Just really quick hot stuff on the replacement question. Scott Bessent has floated himself, I guess, to Politico, as a bit. potential. Maybe he wants to not have to carry the bag with our next topic, the Iran war and what that does with the economy. I don't know. Other, you know, there's a lot of South Carolina officials, Dickie Haley, somebody that people throw out there, which I mean, I can't imagine, but I don't know. I went back and looked. She got 39% in South Carolina in the primary, which I kind of forgot.

I don't know. Maybe at the time it felt disappointing because it was like her home state and she lost by 20. But looked at it through the perspective of now, it's kind of like, well, if you can get 40% against Trump, feels like she could get 50% against some Trump endorsement person. Yeah, I don't know. I have no view of them. They're the people who ran against Graham and other people who ran, you know, the lieutenant governor, I guess who's been mentioned as a possible interim appointee, which I think the intro appointee would presumably have to tell the governor he or she's not running.

It's not going to be. It's not going to be. We can all point and laugh at Nancy Mace who sent a tweet with a godfather, yesterday about when you think you're out, they pull me back in, like, minutes after she woke up, it seemed like with a hangover. I don't know. Like Nancy May says, it's not, I don't think that we have much concern about the timeline where she becomes a senator. That's reassuring, you know, one, yes, a bit of good news there. She got annihilated in the primary, worth, worth remembering. In Lindsay's honor, another thing that Trump is still doing is bombing Iran. This morning, he was on Fox.

he says he was lamenting that the Iranians, the negotiations are always 11 hours. I'm clear if he was confusing the 11th hour with, actually, I don't know, who knows with Trump? The synapses aren't all firing for him. He talked about how they just keep dragging on negotiations. All they do is negotiate. He was complaining about that, which is interesting since he had signed the Treaty of Versailles 2 just a couple weeks ago. you might remember. He said that we're going to become the guardians of the Strait of Hormuz, which kind of sounds like a forever war to me, for somebody who said they're against Forever

Wars, if we're going to permanently have American military personnel protecting and guarding a waterway out of the Persian Gulf, that feels like that could potentially be a Forever War. We also bombed oil infrastructure last night, so I think gas prices are back on the rise. He's in a real chitch. over there. I mean, he signed a deal that explicitly, I think it was Section 5 of the Memorandum of Understanding, said Iran would make arrangements for passage to the Strait for the next 60 days, at least, and left the situation after that unclear. Now Iran's decided out good. We really do want to establish a principle that we get to regulate, at least partly regulate, what happens in

the Strait. That's rough for Trump to accept. And so he's trying to pressure them to kind of not take advantage for the deal that he, Trump, signed. I mean, this matters a lot to Iran, right? This is their leverage, the strait. They're not going to give it up easily. That's been very clear. They're willing to take some risks. I've been a little surprised at how forward-leaning,

if that's the word they've been, and using force and all. But they obviously, for them, this is key. If they give that up, then Trump or Israel starts bombing in three or four months. And then they're sort of back in a bad spot. So I don't say how this gets solved very soon. And some of the bombing could stop, and they could be further interim agreements and all this.

but the risk premium of stripping oil through the straight is not going to go down in the very near future, I shouldn't think. Yeah, I just think that kind of economic ripple effects are real. I think it matters just perception-wise, like the degree to which it's not resolved. And this kind of goes back to the Biden-Afghanistan thing ended up being a real permanent turn for him, the withdrawal. Not, I don't think because like the people who moved to unfavorable on him, like had really strong views on exactly how the Afghanistan withdrawal should happen. But it was just more that like it felt like, you know, nobody's hand was on the till, you know, and like he had lost control of the situation. And I made him look kind of weak. And I feel that, like that is happening

for Trump right now. Like things are spiraling out of control. He has no ability to control the situation in the Middle East that he started. And simultaneously to that, as just mentioned, I mean, there's more bombing and both on Russia and Ukraine side. He said he was going to solve that on day one. Prices are going up for people. They don't have a plan to deal with that. I just think the degree to which stuff is happening over there is a political problem for him just from like a narrative standpoint. Yeah, that's interesting. I think that's right. I mean, just a war that drags on is more dangerous politically. I would think that a war that maybe people judged was not very well advised and didn't end very well, but it's over. Right. And you could imagine a scenario where

Trump just decided not to even contest in a way Iran's messing around in the strait. People like us would say, yeah, this is very dangerous for the future. It's not good. It should be freedom of navigation, blah, blah, blah. This is going to be some permanent risk premium. But you know what? People might not see it much in the very, very near future. And it would kind of calm down. Whereas the fact that we're bombing, he can make it look like we're strong. We're going to take the straight, which is ludicrous. But yeah, I agree. It looks like he just can't end it.

It's going on. And that it could escalate. And that people People don't want that, right? It's not like, and then with their stories now more about how bad a job, and we seem to have died in protecting the troops we sent there in some of these bases and stuff. So, yeah, I agree with you. A couple other stories. This one is just developing, as we're taping this morning, but there's early reports of another ICE involved shooting in Bidivirmein.

It's the Democratic Speaker of the House posted about this. So, you know, details are still to come on that. But obviously this comes after just this horrific killing of the immigrant in Houston at the hands of ICE officers, which we discussed about last week. You wrote about last week, you know, that also comes after some reports that I think that there's a period of time during the transition where some of the ICE activities were, you know, more sporadic, et cetera. But it feels like they are back on full court press. There's some reporting in New York Times to this effect as far as like the number of people they're apprehending, et cetera. we have to, what are they going to do about the Haitians? Like that is, you know, coming soon. So, like, this issue is also coming back to the forefront right now. Yeah, and there's been

reporting uncontested. I think that Stephen Miller, the White House, said, we need 2,000 arrests a day. And so they're out there combing the streets for people who they then pull over. And it turns out these guys are not well trained and they use violence much more than they should. And they shoot innocent people. And it's terrible. And it's utterly and total. unnecessary. I mean, I guess I really come back to that. There are times when there are encounters of cops with people, and they use much more force than they should, and it's terrible. But I don't know, sometimes those are encounters with actual, you know, people whom they're having encounters with, you know, violent encounters. Someone was assaulting someone. They got, you know,

whatever, they shouldn't still go shoot people when they don't have to or obviously deal on their neck or anything like that. These are literally, well, we don't know about me, but in the case of Houston, which I've looked at, you know, been pretty obsessed with. I mean, it's utterly unprovoked, unnecessary, unwarranted, gratuitous, and they killed this man, 35 years there. It seems like a really admirable man and a sort of kind of an American success story, if I could put it that way. And then they lied about it immediately, right out of the box, and they continued lying. No independent investigation, no clarity about who was involved, no footage, or they weren't wearing their, if they weren't wearing their body cams.

I mean, total disgrace. It really, the degree to which they haven't changed anything. After all, they sort of promised and they went when the Democrats were holding up the funding, well, we're going to do some of these changes on our own a little bit, nothing, so far as one can tell. And again, this is all just totally unnecessary. What was the case for pulling over Lorenzo,

let alone obviously murdering him? So, really terrible. They weren't even looking for Lorenzo. They're looking for another guy. Right. And they screwed up. And it's still masked men. And then they detained the other three guys in the car, including his brother.

And they're like pressuring them to self-deport, trying to pressure them to get out of the country so they couldn't speak out and tell people what really happened. It's just a total cover up and lie. And, you know, the reality is they completely dehumanize people that are immigrants, particularly those who didn't come here through the legal process. And so I think that they feel like nobody will care, right, that we can get away with this one. I do. I think that they think that like, oh, you know, whatever, this is different than Alex Preti, who's American citizen, white guy. Like, we can brush this under the rug. People will stop talking about it.

And I think it's really obviously incumbent on, you know, the media and us to keep discussing it and getting more information because there's still a bunch of things we don't know about this killing. but also on the Democrats, politicians to run on this and put pressure on the administration over it. To that point, you have become, I think, maybe the strongest soldier in favor of abolishing ice, Bill Crystal. I think that that has caught some people by surprise. This was a fringe view among kind of the DSA left about four years ago. And now I've heard that you're thinking about getting an abolish ice tattoo. And so I am wondering how you feel about that position. I mean, there's some things that ICE does, obviously, that another law enforcement agency would have to do.

So it's a little bit rhetorical. But honestly, it's maybe just a way of expressing my utter disgust with the mass deportation effort. And I don't think people have focused enough on it. You can have stricter or less strict immigration policies. You can, you know, there are all kinds of things that I would have views about. But, you know, it's within reasonable debate. Mass deportation, this is what happens when you have mass deportation. wholesale violation of civil rights, wholesale dehumanization, as you were saying, of immigrants,

especially of certain colors and from certain places, certain color of skin and from certain places, really terrible on its own, terrible for its sort of secondary effects on the country. And they do believe, I think, you're right, that most Americas will care. And I have been shocked in this case by the number of conservatives, some of whom you and I have known, online and writing things who were sort of, well, I mean, he was illegal. I mean, so what do you expect kind of thing, you know? And I mean, really, they can't even say, look, I generally support a strict light on immigration.

I think some of the criticisms of Trump are unfair. But this case, yeah, this is really bad. And we should have like a little bit independent investigation. Is that too much to ask for? Someone was killed. Someone was killed, you know. Yeah, the government doesn't have impunity to kill people in the street just because they didn't come into the country legally 35 years ago.

That is totally insane as an argument. But I think that they feel like they're on solid ground with that argument. And I don't think there's a lot of pushback within the bubble. And I think that's why it's important to aggressively combat that argument and to go on offense. And so I think it's a valuable that the pro-democracy movement has you out there as the strongest soldier in favor of abolishing ICE. Two other stories really quick. The free speech administration, so Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk were on board of this administration. They wanted unfettered free speech in the marketplace. Well, the Trump administration issued subpoenas Friday to several New York. Times journalists following their reporting on the security concerns about the Cuttery, Hand Me Down Air Force One. Subpoenas wanted them to testify before a grand jury. They were delivered to the reporter's homes by federal agents. Something of note here is Jay Clayton, who is one of the guys, he wasn't one of the guys.

He was a guy that was floated to be the replacement DNI. If Pulte doesn't get confirmed, he's the U.S. attorney for Manhattan. And so he was one that issued these subpoenas against journalists. This is a pretty extreme move. Even if the journalists themselves aren't the targets and the leakers of the targets, it's attack on the First Amendment. It's like a classic story of an embarrassed authoritarian. It's just like they're just embarrassed that their hand-me-down plane couldn't fly Trump out of Turkey

because they felt it was unsafe because he started a stupid war in Iran. And so because they were just, are embarrassed, like now they're going to have lash out and go after people that are trying to get the facts out. Yeah, for me, it's an illustration of just how the authoritarianism is on, you know, it's going at all cylinders throughout the government. You know, it's going internally in terms of firing people. There have been stories about that recently at all the different agencies and cracking down and lie detector tests. It's going externally in terms of trying to intimidate the media. It's going, obviously, the business side of it we've all talked about. Obviously,

the immigration stuff. I mean, It's just, it's a, someone said, a whole of government effort to intimidate people within and without the government. And it really is classic authoritarianism and very dangerous. And no yielding. I mean, it's going faster than it was, I'd say, a year ago. Final topic, before we get to Roe here in segment two. I just think that it's important for the internet to know your take on this.

Looks Max or Clavicular was visiting. Israel this weekend and had some meetings with Netanyahu officials. After that, he said that he also is going to Russia next. And he's just trying to get the visa worked out for that. And so I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts on clavicular and the looksmaxers being used as propaganda by foreign countries. I think this is really more up your alley, you know, and really up Will Summers alley. I'm going to let you and Will discuss this at some point, you know. Okay.

You don't know. You don't know. You don't have any thoughts. Do you have any thoughts on clavicular's rhinoplasty? I thought it was pretty disappointing. Was it really? Uh-huh. That would be, you could do a whole different show on that, really, I think. I'm going to the right guess later this week. I hope he doesn't go to Russia. Don't do it, Clavicular. Don't get used as a pawn by Putin. Okay. Your talents can be used elsewhere. Take your talents back to South Beach.

Bill Crystal, anything else? Any final parting thoughts for folks? Okay. We appreciate it. Up next, segment two, we got Rokokokok. All right, we are back with California Congressman Roe Kana. Roe, I was a little worried when you took my Gen Z podcast sidekick, that you're going to get him to trouble. But it turns out he almost got you killed last week. So I don't know what's happening with that. Well, he is a brave person.

You know, I don't think he'll mind me sharing this when we were detained with the extremist settlers. and they were brandishing M-4s. He had a bit of a panic attack because he had obviously, Cam had witnessed the Parkland shooting. And it was a very tense time. I mean, they were there looking at the Zanuda village

that was destroyed. We were invited there by villagers. It was destroyed by Yanan Levi, an extremist settler. By the way, just six, seven months ago, there were other members of Congress who had been there, Representative Kaston,

and Representative DeLora, so this idea of narrative that somehow we weren't supposed to be there is just faults. And then we see these hoodlums, these kids with M4 guns and other guns. They circle our vans. They're kicking our tires. They're laughing at us, mocking at us. They'll look in their eyes of glee as they're doing this. It's just something I will never forget. They do that for about 20 minutes. And then the IDF comes. I said, finally, we're going to get out of here because the settlers had blocked our van. and then the IDF parks and further blocks us in. And they say, we don't care that they're Americans. We don't care that there's someone who's an American government official.

And we were there almost 75 minutes. I'm just thankful, frankly, to the American Embassy career official, David Brownstein, who made a call to someone senior in Israel. And finally, we got out. But it could have been much worse. And if we were Palestinians, we probably wouldn't be here. It's really, it was horrific. And, you know, I had to talk to Cam about that.

And you're right. he's passionate. He's passionate, young man, and he cares about this stuff and wanted to be there because he cares about the people of Palestine. Talk about what the origin of this trip was how you kind of ended up there in the West Bank and just kind of what preceded, you know, this encounter with the violent settlers. Well, Cam had gone there himself about seven months ago, and it was his only trip overseas. I mean, think about it. He's 25. His only trip overseas. And he said, well, you're talking about... Has he been to Cancun? I think his passport was Mexico. Not even Cancun.

He says he's done two trips overseas and they both put to the West Bank as a choice for international travel. He said, look, you're talking about these things in a policy way, but you've got to see it firsthand. And I was telling to Jasper Nathaniel as an extraordinary journalist there who's put his body on the line to protect Palestinians from extreme settler violence. And he said, look, if you come and if you do it in a way that actually has Palestinians leading you and seeing the villages from their eyes, I'll make the introductions. But I don't want to be part of some PR trip where you're just coming with the Israeli government or an advocacy group, advocacy group. So he did it. And I thought I'd see the world from the lens of Palestinians. I didn't expect it as literally in terms of being detained.

But what I'm hoping, Tim, is that the attention that the incident has legitimately gotten because they detained American citizens will help me tell the story of Palestinians. Because this is happening to Palestinians every day there. A father who saw his son shot at 14, a Palestinian-American shot by the IDF, shot to death, and is still grieving for his son. School shooting, like the one Cam was in. we went, we saw a school shooting a sight of blood of a Palestinian young man. The difference is that the principal has no idea what has happened in an investigation, was never talked to by the

police or the IDF, no consequences for the people who shot up this school. I could go on and on about the stories I heard, but I got to say this, because you've got viewers who genuinely may love Israel, care about Israel, you've got viewers who are critical. Take the politics out of this. Anyone who goes to the West Bank will be horrified by the conditions there. This is not political. Anyone would be horrified what's going on. Yeah, let's just back up the lens then for people, you know, who aren't as familiar with like the geography of the region and kind of the different elements.

Just talk about kind of the West Bank, how it's governed now, you know, and what, you know, the current system is and kind of how that's changed over the last couple years. So after 1967 where there was the war between Israel, Jordan, Egypt, Israel basically took over Gaza and the West Bank. And most people who go to Israel, go to the part of Israel that is within the green line. That is the part of Israel that doesn't include these occupied territories. And I had been to Israel three times before and was largely inside the green line. Yes, sometimes you go to Ramallah, you meet President Abbas or some of the business leaders, but that's really not getting a sentence of the West Bank.

The West Bank, which is basically the occupied Palestine, is in three areas. Area A, which is supposed to be Palestinian administered, area B, which is joint administered, and area C, which is Israeli administered. And we on this trip went to all those parts, the A, B, and C, to look at the life of Palestinians. And I'll tell you, regardless of the area, if you're Palestinian or Palestinian-American there, you basically have no rights. You are subject to the whims of extremist settlers. I was at a home of someone millionaire here in the United States. In fact, the conservatives are criticizing saying, kind of standing outside the homes of millionaires and mansions,

starting about Palestinians rights. Yeah, some of those people were millionaires, Palestinian Americans, and they showed me how settlers basically vandalized their homes, beat one of the ladies in one of their cars through rocks at them, how when they go through checkpoints in the West Bank, one of them was beaten by an Israeli security officer because he didn't speak Hebrew. So it doesn't matter if you're Palestinian, if you're an American, if you're in area A, if you're wealthy, you're just not treated with basic dignity. And I am convinced, Tim, I really believe this, even the most pro-Israel American would go there and be horrified and would want that situation to be resolved.

Yeah, I want to talk about a couple of those areas that you visited. You mentioned, like, meeting with the Palestinian Americans. There are a couple of towns that are kind of Palestinian-American communities, including El-Mazra, which something I was not aware of. Talk about that and the people you met there. And I think that kind of gives a different perspective on what maybe people imagine are the folks living in the West Bank. Well, one of the homes I went to in El-Mazra was a father who lives in Florida. and his son was detained by Israel's son was about 17, 18 years old, whose American citizen raised in Florida was back in Palestine for the summer,

was detained and put in prison for nine months, emaciated by the time he came out. And I talked to another father near there whose son, as I described earlier, was shot to death. Now, the father says that his 14-year-old, who was an American citizen was throwing rocks, and he admits that the son was throwing rocks, but the IDF officer shot him 21 times, and there's no accountability, no investigation. And then you saw in some of these homes,

one person had put in investment in buying three homes in that area and has stopped all construction because the settlers were attacking anyone who was building in that area. And by the way, after we left, we went to look at those homes, the settler saw us. And so they came and attacked right afterwards. And one of the people who was on our delegation trip was detained by the settler. They took his keys of his tractor. And it's unclear if he's even gotten it back. So even in these places where you have Palestinian

Americans, wealthy Palestinian Americans, in a Palestinian-administered area, Area A, you still have basic oppression and racism. And they don't have enough water. there. And then if you go to area C, where it's Israeli controlled, it's basically the Wild West. And which cities are in area of sea or like what towns? For example, Zunata, the village that was destroyed, burnt to the ground where we saw an elementary school, totally burnt. Umalcare. You know, I went to Amalcare and just two small stories there. One, the night before I was there, the settlers attacked. a home. And they attacked the home of a Palestinian man, Salman, and his family. His daughter was 18 years

old studying to go to university. Suddenly, she hears rattling on her house. She has people throwing things near her room. And she gets so scared she stopped studying. And then the Israeli settlers plant and Israeli flagged. I saw this with my own eyes on the home of Salman, a Palestinian home. And he has no recourse to preventing this violence. And you have actually people doing protective services, protective presence, Jewish Americans, Israelis who are there to guard his home at night because they're going to have settler attacks.

Jasper and Nathaniel, one of the journalists, did it, and was actually beaten on his head. And then after we were there in Umalcare, two hours after, there was a settler attack where people were brandishing machine guns. And it's all related to that. Is that the one of the CNN journalists or also CNN journalists, I think,

or maybe that was a couple days later. That may have been later. It was also an incident. I don't know where that one was. But this is a daily occurrence. And here is the frustrating part. They all know who this was. Yanan Levi has an illegal outpost.

An outpost is a settlement that is illegal, even under Israeli law. There is video of him shooting a Palestinian and killing him, Ottawa. And I met Ottawa's brother, Khalil. and Khalil says that he sees Yanan Levi every couple months in the settlement roaming free. And Yanan Levi's folks are the ones who detained us at the Zunada village. We have the images of these people.

They should be arrested. Yanan Levi should be arrested. What is going on? And so we can talk philosophically about how it's apartheid, how we need a Palestinian state. But at the very least, can we stop the extreme settlers, get them arrested? Can we demolish these outposts? I mean, can we just start to have Palestinians living there treated with basic dignity? Yeah, I want to talk about some of the potential political solutions,

but just one other thing that struck me when I was talking to Cam about your visit is, you know, the town of Bethlehem, obviously important town for Christians, where Jesus was born and Bet Sahir, you know, where the shepherds were in the Bible. That was a tourist attraction, of course, in the West Bank. and now has been completely surrounded by settlements. It's hard for tourists to get there. You guys were there. Can you just talk a little bit about what you saw in Bethlehem?

We went to Bait Sahur. We went to Bethlehem. We went to Bejala. I'll be putting out a video in the next few days from the perspective of the mayors of those towns. We stood outside a shepherd's field where the angels basically announced Christ's birth. We went to the Church of Nativity.

which is where Jesus Christ was born. And Bates O'Hour is a majority Christian town still. And Bethlehem is a large Christian population, as does Bait Jala. But it was just shocking to hear their perspectives. There are 24 illegal settlements that are surrounding Bethlehem, according to the mayor. According to the mayor in Bates O'Hore,

there was an American who wanted to develop some of the few land near Batesahor to stage a play, the passion of Christ's play about Christ's suffering. And they were so excited they were going to get this development. And now there's an illegal settlement that has come right there and preventing the development that an American wanted to do. The mayors, all three of the mayors talk about how their residents complain about not having enough water to, wash their clothes. They have 50 liters a day, whereas the settlers have 400 liters a day, just a kilometer away. And the UN standard is 100 liters a day is what's needed for a normal life. I could go on and on, but it was just oppressive. And by the way, these mayors,

for mayors of their towns, can't go to Jerusalem. They're still applying because they want to meet with the Orthodox Church and some of the bishops, and they don't have permission even as mares to go there. A couple of the critics that were commenting that I saw on your trip, one who I follow on social media, seems like an earnest pro-Israel supporter, said basically, he thought this was an intentional political stunt. Your guides took you into a restricted area that's closed off to civilians without requesting access or coordinating that you wanted this to happen, basically. Yeah, I wanted myself and Cam to be in a van, surrounded by people brandishing M-4s, kicking our tires, insulting us. come on. That's like, that's about as credible as the people who think that Donald Trump staged his own assassination attempt at Butler. I have about as much, uh, respect for that comment as I do for those wacko conspiracy theorists who think that Trump's assassination attempt was fake. But the reality is

that the Zunata village was destroyed. And, uh, just six months ago, Congressman, uh, Sean Castin, Congresswoman Rosa DeLora was there, were there. We were like them invited by the villagers. The Israeli government has put an order saying that the extremist settlers can't go there because the extremist settlers were committing violence against these villagers. And so we went, like other members of Congress there, we had informed the Israeli embassy. We had informed the American embassy. Of course, otherwise, how did we get out? Obviously, the American embassy was informed. The Israeli embassy was informed. And when we went there, it's not like there were, there were any signs or stopped by Israeli police. There were violent vigilante settlers who detained us, and then the

IDF cooperated with those settlers. Any other country, this would be a massive international incident. How dare they treat American passport holders this way? The New York Post also said, pointed out that you were invited to meet freed hostages and survivors of October 7th, invited to meet with the Druze civilians and the Golan Heights who are currently kind of embroiled in between conflict between Syria and Israel and who are siding more with Israel. What's your kind of reaction to why not, you know, meet with people beyond the West Bank? This is really important for me to address because I had been to Israel three times before. I met with Prime Minister Bennett,

met with Prime Minister Netanyahu, met with a lot of ministers, met with government officials. I had met with John and Rachel Poland and communicated with them when their beloved son, Hirsch, was in captivity and did my small part to try to free, advocate for the freeing of Hirsch.

Of course, that was unsuccessful, and Hirsch was murdered and killed by terrorists. I have met with hostage families. But the argument that the Israeli government is making is that no one should be able to go on a Palestinian-led tour to the West Bank without engaging in the perspective from the side of the Israeli government. And I just reject that. I believe that we need to be able to have Palestinian-led tours. And my intention was to go to the West Bank to hear their perspective. I had already heard it three times from Israel, and I've met and will continue to meet with families of hostages.

But if their standard is that anything is a stunt, if it's not seen through the lens of APEC or through the lens of the Israeli government, well, that's partly why the Palestinians have been denied justice for the past 75 years. Looking into what the relationship should look like going forward, how would you see what the American relationship with Israel should be, I guess, compared to like our relationship with Saudi Arabia, which also does human rights violations. We also have economic partnership with them. How would you kind of think about that? Well, we shouldn't be giving Israel aid. We don't give the kind of aid to Saudi Arabia.

We shouldn't be giving countries aid that have massive human rights violations. We shouldn't be providing military cells that are killing civilians. And we should really address the. occupation and injustice. Now, I fundamentally believe we need a Palestinian state, but there are things we can do immediately. An American Congress, an American president could demand that the IDF removed the outposts. They could demand the arrest of people like Yanon Levy and the extremist settlers. That could happen within months. They could demand that there be some civil enforcement in area A, B, and C that would protect the rights of Palestinians. This is short of

full self-determination, but it would just take away some of the extreme injustice that is taking place today. They could allow Betzahor and Bethlehem to drill for their own water, so you can have some water for Palestinians. There are a lot of things that we could do that would improve the daily life as we work towards a broader peace process. And, you know, look, there are parts of Israel that I think were extraordinary when I visited, the educational research, the innovation, the sense of contributions that they have made. But anyone who cares deeply about humanity would understand that it's just unjust what's taking place.

And my view is to have a Palestinian state with a secure Israel as a Jewish state, but a Jewish state that has equal rights and equal dignity for everyone within its borders and certainly in recognizing the dignity of Palestinians. Rom was giving a big speech in Israel while you were in the West Bank. I included some things like sanctions for banks that are doing business with settlers who are doing illegal settlements. Do you have a chance to see that speech? Have any thoughts on what Rahm has been saying? I did. And I, you know, I appreciate it. Obviously, I don't think it goes far enough. and doesn't center Palestinians. But La Grombs got a long history of families

who have sacrificed for Israel. He's someone who is seen, obviously, as someone very pro-Israel, and for him to go out there and say there's an arrogance of power and that there need to be sanctions on settlers, and there needs to be a sanction on banks that are doing this construction. I said, good. I don't agree with a number of these positions. But my view is we need all of the voices possible to get justice there and to move forward.

And I believe he made a contribution towards that end. All right. Last thing. You were a big supporter of Graham Platner's campaign that is now collapsed, putting the Senate at risk. Wondering, kind of looking back at that, what lessons were learned from it. Do you have regrets? I got the call wrong. I should have listened to my wife.

She had a few weeks ago, she was opposed to me endorsing. And I actually was chatting with her. I said, can I share that publicly? She said, yeah, you should share that publicly because you got the call wrong. And I, look, I'm humble enough when I make a mistake, I'll own up to it. And I made a lot of endorsements, but this one was a mistake. And I should have seen more of the signs that were there of his. toxic treatment to women. I had drawn the line at sexual assault and sexual violence and

who's the first to withdraw. But I don't think the answer to this is just to obfuscade or paper over it. I take it as I made a mistake. I made a wrong call. I'm going to learn from it in being more vigilant on vetting and signs and admit that, you know, I'm not going to get everything right. On the learning on the vetting, my takeaway from this is that there's this line I always go back to that George Bush gave, of all people at a funeral, where he said that a lot of times when you're looking at people on your side, you're looking at their best intentions. When you're looking at people on the other side, you're looking at their worst examples, right? And he was talking about the partisanship element of this. But I see this kind of in the factional fight sometimes,

within the Democratic Party, where if somebody, if you're on the left side of the party, you give the benefit of the doubt to people. If they're on the other faction, you know, you nitpick their worst examples. What's your reaction to that, as a ticker? from this. I should totally agree. I mean, I think we did give him the benefit of the doubt because he was so strong against foreign wars for Medicare for All, talking about taxing billionaires and the economic inequality. It was a charismatic organizer. And in this case, we gave too much of the benefit of doubt. Now, I think in general, we should be giving people the benefit of the doubt if we want people who don't have my background.

I joke around. I went to Yale Law School, and no one was studying there. They all want to be on the Supreme Court or senator or a congressperson or president. And you want the country just to have folks like that, fine. But if you want to have a broader group of people who aren't necessarily plotting their political career since the time they won their road scholarship or at some elite law school, then there has to be some benefit of the doubt. And that was my instinct. But in this case, the benefit of the doubt.

doubt was too much. Obviously, there were clear flags that people picked up that he could have had violence, sexual violence, violence against women. And so it's a balance for giving benefit of the doubt. It's natural that you're going to give benefit of the doubt to people who share your ideology, but there has to be a clear line on sexual violence and sexual assault. And we need to do a better job of picking that up. One person I shout out, Cheyenne, who picked it up both with Swalwell and Plattner and as an organization helping to do that, I think we need to give organizations like that more resources and voices. And I've learned from her and I will continue to rely on people like her. All right. You keep my cam safe, okay, Ralph?

Right. Tell him his third trip does not have to be to the West Bank. He's allowed a trip other than to the West Bank. Yeah, Cancun is nice. You know, I think about that. Montreal, right? He's an extraordinary young man. He's an extraordinary young man. And it's interesting to me because he's obviously, he's Jewish, but he is so passionate, so passionate about equal rights for Palestinians. And I see this for so many of these young Jewish Americans. I mean, he's always pushing me. Oh, well, you're not clear enough. You're not strong enough. You're not left enough on the issue. But it's just there's no politics to it. It's just humanity. And that's what gives me hope,

actually that we are going to get to some peace and justice. It's not my trip. It's these young folks. And he's the one who pushed me to go. All right. I appreciate you very much. We'll have you back soon. That's Ro Khan.

I also appreciate Bill Crystal, who's in the first segment, and we'll see everybody else on tomorrow's podcast. We've got another big guest. It's a big week. Appreciate everybody. See you, Roe. Thanks, Tim. The Borg podcast is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper,

Associate producer Anzley Skipper and with video editing by Katie Lutz and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.