The Bulwark Podcast - Bill Kristol: Has Trump Trapped Himself?

Episode Date: July 14, 2025

With the Epstein case, the conspirator-in-chief has finally found a hoax that MAGA isn't buying—and he's risking his credibility among his newer supporters in the manosphere by continuing to hawk it. Meanwhile, Trump may have figured out that Putin has not been nice to him. Plus, troops are still in Los Angeles, immigration laws meant for the border are being applied to gardeners and farmworkers in the country's interior, and there's a big serving of fascism that goes with all the clownishness. Bill Kristol joins Tim Miller. show notes Tim's interview with Julie K. Brown last year Bill's 'Bulwark on Sunday' conversation with Julie Brown

Hello and welcome to the Bulldog podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. I'm lightly tanned, unrested, unready, but I'm going to make it through on some Oasis endorphins and it's Monday. So I'm here with Bill Kristol, who can carry me on a post vacation hangover. How are you doing, Bill? I'm going to make it through on some Oasis endorphins and it's Monday. So, I'm here with Bill Kristol, who can carry me on a post-vacation hangover. How are you doing, Bill? I'm fine. How was your vacation, Tim? How was Oasis? Oasis was so incredible. It was biblical, as they say, mad for it. It was really something.

They were on a 16-year hiatus. We were in their hometown of Manchester. Very few Yanks there as soon as I opened my mouth. Manchester, England, not Manchester, New Hampshire. Some of us are very parochial, you know. I spent a lot of time in Manchester, New Hampshire. Let me tell you, I could tell you about the bar scene there. It's pretty rough. It was my first time in Manchester, England, which has kind of like a British Detroit feel to it. One of those working industrial towns that's kind of being revitalized. And we were out in their big city park, Keaton Park, and 80,000 people. All these limies knew every word to every song, the B-sides, everything. They came out and it was, I had British strangers

hugging me. It was really quite the experience going to see the Oasis Reunion in Manchester. So that was good. Madrid was great. Amsterdam, going from the Spanish to the British with the Dutch in between, I felt like I was whispering the whole time in Amsterdam. Like they're a much more modest people in Amsterdam. But it was wonderful. I have to warn the audience, it might be a two-week vacation next year. I could do that in a couple more days, but it was really good. How are things here? Well, it was tough without you.

We held down the fort. Actually, we just seem to have done pretty well. I did the podcast with our friend, Kam Caskey there. You're in your absence and it went pretty well. As he talked to you- He has, I was worried about that one. The fact that you're gonna be moved aside a bit and it's gonna be, you know,

the grandfather relationship is really, is a good, with the 24 year old. One of the original name ideas, one I still kind of like the best frankly for FY pod was boomer zoomer. And so you could just move me out and have it officially be boomer zoomer. It's your, you and he, you and he have a lot to talk about, but like Oasis. I called him like an older brother on the way to the airport and I was like, I'm not going to have my vacation fucking screwed up because you do something crazy. So behave. So I'm glad to hear it worked.

He behaved and then we had an interesting week in politics, culminating with Epstein this past weekend and Oasis sounds great. Yeah, I don't know much about Oasis. I don't really, hugging strangers. You don't know Wonderwall? You know Wonderwall. Hugging strangers, hugging strangers at some big event. I don't know what to write Oasis. I don't really... Hugging strangers, hugging strangers at some big event. I don't know. I'm not really big on that. Last time I

think I hugged a stranger was in Fenway Park in 1975 when Carl Fisk hit the walk-off home run in the 12th inning of the sixth game. The greatest moment I've ever seen in baseball. And everyone in Fenway Park was hugging each other. So that's my Oasis. My Oasis is the World Series 50 years ago. Noel walking back out to the hometown, telling them to don't look back in anger is up next, was kind of like the Carlton Fisk, I think, of the moment. So anyway, folks can look at my Instagram if they wanna just see me in pure bliss.

But now, not as pure bliss, I guess. So we had some good things happened, it seems like. Well, actually, let me ask you, what did I miss the most? I literally, I did this. I'd read nothing. I read nothing. Anytime I would receive a text from someone about something and I would admonish them to not follow up.

I didn't want any more information. I was essentially totally black with a few bad apples like Tommy Vitor texting me. And other than that, I was black. So what did I miss? What was the most important thing that happened? It's a good question. I know there was a lot of news.

I have to go back and look at one exhaust to see what we all covered. I mean, Epstein took it over beginning around a little bit Sunday with the, which was right after you left with the release of the Joint Justice Department FBI statement. But then when Trump butted into a question on Tuesday at the cabinet meeting and took the question that was intended for Bondi, really, and said, oh, why does everyone care

about Epstein? It's so ridiculous. He's a dead guy, whatever he said. I mean, that did drive the MAGA base crazy. And then a lot of people, and I'll include myself on this, said, you know what? What is going on here? And is there like a reason why we're not know a little more about what this horrendous, grotesque, horrible sex criminal did over years? And he was a friend of Trump's and then we can talk more about that.

Sarah and I did this little podcast on Saturday afternoon, kind of last minute, where Epson was in the news. We both had opinions about it, which were that it was a legitimate issue, basically. But neither of us had followed it at all closely. We're not really into conspiracy theories. So we did this 20-minute thing, no, you know, not on a regular slot or anything like that, obviously. Saturday afternoon, I just looked at it this morning. It seems to have gotten over half a million views. Honestly, it was fine. It was fine. But it wasn't like scintillating, brilliant, hilarious, you know, insightful, nothing

you could know otherwise. Then I did this thing with Julie Brown, the really fantastic reporter who broke the story again and forced in a way the second indictment of Epstein in 2019, when she wrote these pieces for the Miami Herald in 2018. That's gotten also a lot of attention. What that tells me is these are not mega people, I'm going to guess, watching the bulwark, watching me and Sarah, right? Our people, if I can put it this way, are interested in it. It is a very interesting, horrible in many ways, of course, but I mean, interesting story about many things, our criminal justice

system, our elites, Trump, New York financiers, unfortunately, sex trafficking. So anyway, I'm now slightly obsessed with Epstein. Okay, great. I've been there for a while. So I was happy. Is that right? Oh, good for you. Yeah, it's nice you had an eight-day catch up. I did a Julie Brown interview.

She is great. And I was happy you did the Sunday show. We did it back when I was doing the next level Sunday interviews, which feels like a lifetime ago. So it must have been two or three years ago. And I'll put a link to the show notes. So people, that just was kind of like, there's something weird here still. And I was like, I hadn't been paying that close of attention to it. And I was like, I want you to educate me basically. And so it was long form, kind of went

into the origin story. She talked about the victims a lot. And we talked a little bit about the Trump event at the time. So if people are just catching up and want to kind of get that backstory, Julie K. Brown has been the reporter on this. I'll put the link in the notes here. But you know, the Trump part of it has continued to nag at me for a while, because mostly, I mean, partly because of the troll, but also just because of the, it is pretty wild. I mean, like the coincidences are pretty extreme and the death, suicide, if you will, did happen when Trump was president. And so I was more obsessed with like kind of the meta-narrative about this.

Like how did this become a right-wing coded conspiracy theory? Like Trump was friends with the guy, Acosta, who was in his cabinet, gave him the sweetheart deal initially. He died under the Bill Barr Justice Department. There are also some Bill Barr connections to Epstein. Maybe there's nothing here, but if there is something here that's related to Trump, the comparison I have now to this situation that I'm wondering how you'll react to this is that it's a little reminiscent of the Harriet Myers thing from the beginning of the Bush second term where, and maybe it's just the Laura Ingraham clip I'm about to play you, because I remember Laura Ingraham going very hard against Bush in term two over the Harriet Myers thing. And essentially the right-wing

media kind of asserting itself and saying that he'd gone soft. Trump has never experienced that. He's experiencing this now. We're in day eight since that memo came out. Here's a little audio mashup I put together from the Turning Point USA Festival this weekend. That includes Laura Ingraham and Dave Smith and Charlie Kirk and some others. Let's just take a listen. I will not rest until we go full Jan six committee on the Jeffrey Epstein files and every single client that was associated with this thing has an FBI agent at their door on their phone going

after them the same way they went after the Jansixers and the peaceful patriots and the praying grandmothers that were on those steps. That's how we should go after every single person that was in the Epstein client list. How many of you are satisfied you can clap? Satisfied with the results of the Epstein investigation. Clap. Okay, I told you to clap. You guys aren't listening. I'm not going to grade you on a curve. So I was going to get to that. How many of you are not satisfied with the results of the investigation. I think the DOJ should immediately move to unseal all the Epstein documents in the Southern District of New York. Yeah, everything. Listen guys, I'm a free American. I supported Donald Trump in this last election. Yes, he did just

actively cover up a giant child rapist ring and I'm gonna criticize him for that, okay? I mean the crowd reaction is notable. criticize him for that okay I mean the crowd reaction is notable it is striking so I mean I think people like me I want to say for us probably didn't pay as much attention to this once it became such a part of MAGA world conspiracy theories how that happened I agree given the Trump is the guy who was so friendly with Epstein this old video Trump praised him in 2002 etc how that happened maybe has to do with QAnon and they were so obsessed with the massive pedophile activity at the highest levels of the US government and pizza gate and all. Once Epstein re-emerges,

thanks to Julie Brown, who is not a mega type, but thanks to her really courageous reporting and indefatigable reporting against many obstacles, incidentally, and he gets re-indicted, recharged into 2019 and then dies and then Maxwell's charged in 2021, I think, and convicted. Somehow that was fine, but that was different from the MAGA world obsession with it, which I do think was, don't you think, very QAnon related and so it is? Yeah, and obviously that there was a tie between the kind of QAnon element of this and that Trump was one stopping the pedophile rings and the and the pizza gate, you know, and then Biden's president and nothing they indict upstate nothing which happens and that's

and then and Maxwell and Maxwell, I'm sorry, they type Maxwell not upstand since that at this point and convict convict her. But I will say this just now that I've looked at it and talked to Julius nationally, I don't know, if you have a massive, whoever it was on that audio, if you have a massive conspiracy, two people get charged. I mean, they're the only people who knew what was going on, are the only people who helped make it happen. There was money sloshing around, there were arrangements being made galore.

Now, not every person who, I don't know, flew Epstein's plane necessarily knew what it was for and maybe instead of it, you wouldn't go necessarily charge all those people. But there are a heck of a lot of middle level, upper middle management people in this conspiracy as there are in all these incidents. You think about Madoff, think about these others. My impression is, I've researched this honestly, but more than one person gets charged in these cases. Sometimes they turn to state's evidence, maybe they don't get punished severely, but they just didn't quite understand what was happening, maybe. But anyway, a lot of

that didn't come out. The original deal in 2008 was a total disgrace. The notion that the elites took care of themselves, the elites didn't want this rock to turn over this rock too much. They reluctantly went after, I think how reluctant it was, they went after this repulsive creep. They give them a plea deal in 08, by 06 I think they felt they couldn't ignore it, there was so much talk about it. They give them a plea deal in 08. Julie Brown personally gets them to finally indict him again 10 years later. He dies and then they do Maxwell, they get her convicted and then it's all just dropped.

I don't know, maybe all these guys didn't know, they didn't know how old the girls were, they didn't realize they were being sex trafficked, they just thought this was kind of a thing that happens in elite circles in New York and Palm Beach. It's minimally, unbelievably, well creepy is not even the word, I mean just horrible and hard to believe there were charges that could have been brought against those people. Now, maybe they couldn't prove them, it's whatever, prosecutorial judgments. Maybe. So, that's one side. So, I think what's happened, if you want the Harriet Myers analogy, the right turned on Myers because they thought she was a squish sort of on abortion and other issues. People like me and David Frum criticized Myers a lot and I think probably made

it more legitimate in a sense for some of the more moderate Republican senators to say, we're not going along with this because we just thought she wasn't up to the position. It wasn't appropriate for a Supreme Court nominee. The equivalent I'd say is this is MAGAS going after Trump, which causes trouble in Trump's base, which is good politically. But also I do think a lot of people ask, say this by myself, sort of been reawakened to just how much of an outrage the whole thing is. And then the Justice Department, it's Trump's Justice Department, so we should stipulate

that. I'll come back to that in a sec. But the Justice Department of the United States puts out a one and a half page statement with the FBI that just says, nothing to see here. Doesn't explain, I mean, I was thinking about this, Comey and Hillary, let's go back to emails for a minute. So he decided not to prosecute, but you know what? It was a big story.

It was a big concern. He put out a statement. He had a press conference. He explained. People didn't like the explanation. They did like it, whatever. But I mean, it was like they felt some obligation to explain to the public why they were doing a certain set of things in this very controversial and a case that had a lot of attention.

Nothing of that here. So even for word to Trump Justice Department, it's kind of bad, I think. And of course, Trump was a very good friend of Epstein. We have a lot of evidence of that. I mean, they both say it, so it's not even... He's in the files. We know that. He's in the airplane logs already.

We've seen that. He's got to be in the files. I mean, he was close to Epstein. How could he have not come up in a bunch of interviews? Should they put out unredacted, unvetted FAS for some person says, I hear Donald did that? No, that's not right. Obviously, the criminal investigation is a million things that shouldn't be shared. But he is the President of the United States. Should there be some account of his involvement or non-involvement? Maybe that would be worth knowing. And finally, while you were gone, there was all this publicity about bungeeno, that is

how it was presented. And obviously, Attorney General Pan Bondi and Cash Patel, they're fighting, they're unhappy, bungeeno's unhappy, Bondi's taking the hit and all this. It's all ludicrous. This is the one thing Sarah and I really both, I think, independently came to as we talked about it Wednesday or Thursday and thought, this is ridiculous. It's Trump. Pam Bondi is not deciding how to handle the Epstein files without consulting Trump. Maybe she's careful and doesn't formally schedule a meeting with him and there's an indirect

communication. Trump's kind of good at that kind of stuff. It is inconceivable that Trump didn't sign off on these things, maybe order the decisions that Bondi and Patel came to. In any way, they believe in the unitary executive, so he's responsible for it. I mean, he is literally responsible for it, right? Just the way, you know, he doesn't get to walk, you know, to say, oh, that's Bondi and Patel, I don't know anything about it. So Trump decided to slam the door shut on the files of this sexual predator, whom he was a good friend of, and who is probably mentioned in many of these files. That's kind of a big story. And depending on what you, it's's a really big story. Also, you mean by files, like,

there are other Trump accusers. And so, Julie points this out, right? It's not like there's just one secret black book where he listed all the men that raped women, right? Like the files, like, encompass all the investigations, the videos. They went into Epstein's home and took out a lot of tapes. People don't know what is on the tapes. There are other accusers. It was Stacey Williams, I believe, that accused Trump of groping her and then Epstein involved situation. There's another woman who did as well, attached to Epstein, the Michael Wolfe book. Now I'm a little kind of iffy on Michael Wolfe, but he says that Epstein showed him pictures of women on Trump's lap, topless women. Were they underage? I don't know. So the point is that like

any legitimate investigation into Epstein would have included like running down these types of accusations. And so he would be in there at some level. All right. Well, just because I'm back from holiday doesn't mean that you don't get to have a holiday sometime this summer or fall or winter. And if you're looking to head to a foreign country, take it from me. It's better if you're learning a foreign language. I was doing my best with Babel, but I was just so lucky to be there with my buddy, Georgie, in Spain, who's English, but's been in Madrid for five years. And his Spanish was unbelievable. Just yapping at the waitresses, you know, going back and forth with people, getting into arguments at the pub. It makes a difference. Just take it from me. It makes a difference

if you can speak the language. So why not start trying to speak a new one with confidence like Georgie, Thanks to Babel's conversation-based technique that quickly teaches you useful words and phrases about the things you actually talk about in the real world. There's over a dozen languages to learn at your own pace, so you can achieve your goals with material tailored to your individual proficiency level, interests, and time availability. Handcrafted by over 200 language experts, Babel's lessons are voiced by real native speakers and built with science-backed cognitive tools like spaced repetition and interactive

features to fit any learning style. You know, they got a bunch of fun stuff to play around with. I like looking at the Babbel games, you know, because that keeps my attention going, or the little culture bites that give you insider knowledge, little fun facts about the language, because if you're not going to be fully proficient, which you can get to with Babbel, but you or bytes that give you insider knowledge, little fun facts about the language. Because if you're not going to be fully proficient, which you can get to with Babbel, but not me, it's fun to have some little fun facts so you can have those at your disposal as well. I want you to learn another language. So, I'm teaming up with Babbel to gift you

55% off subscriptions, but only for our listeners at babbel.com slash bulwark. Get up to 55% off at babble.com slash bulwark, spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash bulwark. Babble.com slash bulwark. Rules and restrictions apply. I want to talk about why I think that this has, I don't want to get over excited that this could be the thing that breaks Mag or whatever, but I want to talk a little bit about what the real risks are with Mag in a second. But since you brought up Bongino, that first. He took a mental health day on Friday. He took the day off and apparently reported that he got in a screaming match with Susie Wiles.

CNN over the weekend says that he's told multiple people he's considering resigning over this. Who knows? Is that a face-saving thing? Is that Bongino doesn't like having a real job? Is that Bongino doesn't like it was handled? That he knows something? But again, that brings legitimacy. That is a real news item.

The deputy director of the FBI, Trump named him the deputy director of the FBI. He might be a clown, but it would be a pretty major story in any administration if the deputy director of the FBI was like, I'm going to resign because I think that my boss is covering up a pedophile ring. Totally. That's very well said. I just want to emphasize that point.

I mean, the idea that this is how we should... I was on various conversations over the weekend. I went for you with them and various liberal friends in Washington and elites and lawyers and so forth types. They were very abashed about even discussing it. I don't know, Bill, is that really a thing? I said I was doing the podcast with Julie Brown and Sarah and I had done one and stuff and I was just going to write something about it this morning. I thought, oh, this is kind of, I guess you have to. It's probably hurt some politically, but it's kind of, we got more important things to talk about and all this.

The deputy director of the FBI, as you say, Trump's personally handpicked appointee, possibly quitting the administration five months in over a coverup that Bongino will say is Pam Bondi's, but must therefore be Donald Trump's. That's a very big story, right? It doesn't take away Trump. That's a story in any administration. I couldn't agree more. So it really is absolutely legitimate to cover.

And since the Bongino reporting is so broad based now, in effect, half fits by people whom Bongino is probably telling it to, right? Laura Loomer. I mean, who's the source for Laura Loomer? You follow some of these MAGA characters a little more closely than I do. Do we not think that Bongino is personally

the source for Laura Loomer? Like a 75% chance of that? I don't know. So it's not like this is just third hand, disreputable, gossipy stuff. Clearly, as you said, he took that day off, he's very unhappy, so that's a story. I absolutely agree.

Here's like, also I think the big picture political element of this, that relates to that Turning Point USA video and the response of the crowd, relates to kind of the response from the Manosphere. We've seen some of this from some of these less political, less buff guys that got jumped on board the Trump train that did care about the Epstein issue.

Like, given what has happened, like they put out this statement that says that there's nothing there. Like the implication of that is one of two things. Either essentially all of the deep state conspiracies are fake. If there's really nothing to the Epstein case, then there's nothing to any of the cases that they've got, that they have gotten all excited about that has driven MAGA media for years. Or Trump is covering up pedophilia on behalf of the most influential people in the world,

including himself. Like, that's kind of it. There's nothing here. Those are the options. You either take it at face value, there's nothing there, and that all of these conspiracies even spending all this podcast time in over the years amounts to nothing, or Trump is involved in a massive cover-up on behalf of the elites. I think that the first one is important

because when you think about the risk to MAGA, because I think that probably a lot of liberals would just default to the first one. It's like, it's probably the first one, right? Like, it's probably just that these guys are all a bunch of conspiracy theorists and there's nothing there. But there will be a reckoning for that

if that is true, on the right. Like, if you take what they've been told at face value in MAGA world, and you look at the Pam Bondi, Cash Mattel record so far, there have been no arrests of the Biden crime family. No arrests over 2020 election fraud. No arrests over the Russia hoax. No arrests involved with Jeffrey Epstein. How can that be acceptable to these people?

I don't understand. I don't think it is. And I think that you will see the backlash. And I think that they are almost as vulnerable to delivering nothing as they are to a cover-up. I mean, obviously covering up Donald Trump being complicit in this would be a bigger story. But I think it's a real political vulnerability. I think Trump senses that, which is why in that kind of insane, long, truth social post

of 5 p.m. on a Saturday afternoon, he turns it in a way which is both crazy but in a way consistent with what you're saying. This was invented by Obama and Clinton and he goes on, right? The document almost seems to say- I have it in front of me. Let me just read it really quick. What's going on with my boys, and in some cases, gals? They're all going after Pam Bondi, who's doing a fantastic job. We have a perfect administration, the talk of the world, and selfish people are trying to hurt it all over a guy who never dies, Jeffrey Epstein. For years, it's Epstein over and over again.

Why are we giving publicity to files written by Obama, crooked Hillary, Comey, Brennan, and the losers and criminals of the Biden administration who conned the world with Russia, Russia, Russia, the laptop from hell and more blah, blah, blah. So that's what he's trying to lump it in with. Which is literally almost crazy. That is six days before his own justice department

and FBI had a statement that as I said, must have been signed off on by him. I've said, look, we've gone through all the, I hadn't really realized until I read the statement personally. They go into a little bit of detail, not much, but a couple of paragraphs. We've read through all these files, all these videos, extensive, many agents and investigators

have looked into this. Who knows if they're telling the truth. But they say they went through all this stuff. They say nothing about the files being cooked up or invented by Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, or anything like that. And they say, but there was nothing there. There's not enough there.

There's no conspiracy. There's nothing to show, not even no conspiracy. It would be inappropriate to release any new information. That's what they say. But the files are legit. Suddenly Trump realizing that he's got the problem that you sort of specified, which is, well, wait a second. If the files are legit, okay, well, let's hear something

about them. The files are made up, which is, in a way, typical Trump, kind of shrewdly just trying to totally change the topic so he doesn't even have to address it. And he denies everything, right? He denies story Daniels. He denies everything that he's guilty that he did, basically. He's unashamed or unlined, to say the least. But in this case, he's now got himself in this sort of weird contradiction.

I mean, none of his people believes these files were made up. None of MAGA world thinks the files were made up. It shows a kind of panic in my view on that 521 PM long truth social post that you read some of on Saturday afternoon. That feels to me like a little realization that this is spinning out of control. I don't know when that booing was at the- Yeah, same time. It was around the same time.

Yeah. He's hearing about this and he's sort of, I'll go to my go-to play. It's all invented by Obama and Hillary as a decoy, but these people have been talking about this for years and no one said it was invented, including Patel, Bondi, or Trump himself. No one said this problem was invented by Hillary or Obama, right? I mean, that would be consistent if they said other things, you know what I mean? The Russia hoax is the consistent fake news item on the Trump's part, right? It was invented by Mueller and Obama, and now it's been invented eight years later.

But so what's he going to do? I mean, I think what he'll do is, and he says this sort of at the end of that long true social thing, he's going to go after, redouble his efforts to go after everyone he can go after. Forget about Epstein, but I'm indicting, you know, Comey, I'm indicting, God knows, I'm reopening the Hillary investigation, I'm reopening this, he'll come after the bulwark, I don't know. I mean, he'll desperately try to get his people focused on the malefactors who, you know, he wants them focused on. But that's difficult in this case. This was, as you say, 2019 was under Trump, 2000, he wants them focused on. But that's difficult in this case. This was, as you say, 2019 was under Trump.

He didn't complain. You know what I mean? Trump wasn't complaining about the settlement in 2008, so far as I know, under the Bush administration. So, anyway. I think that's a sell that works for like the real, the Newsmax watchers, you know. If you're a 70-year-old MAGA person who leaves OAN on all day long, like sure, like whatever Newsmax watchers, you know? If you're a 70 year old mega person who leaves OAN on all day long, like sure,

like whatever is gonna work on you. Like eventually Charlie Kirk will get in line, you know, on side, right? Like Fox prime time eventually gets on side, or like you can only talk about this for so long, probably. But that nexus of people that were drawn to Trump because he felt like he was a finger, tiny little finger, in the eye of the elites, you know, and that that's along with him. I think that the credibility is unrecoverable on this. Like these guys are wired to believe that there is a conspiracy, whether or

not that there is. You know, like the idea that you can tell them that the Jeffrey Epstein thing was just nothing, actually, is just laughable. I don't think the credibility is recoverable with them, which is meaningful. It's so evidently more something than all these other quote conspiracies. I mean, actually, Epson was not a conspiracy theory exactly. It was a criminal case. He pled guilty in 08. They gave him a very soft punishment. It was reopened, as we discussed. They indicted him. Those documents are public. I actually, I just looked at it this morning. So it's not a kind of pizza gate, oh my God, the deep state.

They weren't covering it. They indicted him. Then they indicted and convicted Maxwell. Yeah, the suicide part is like, I guess, the conspiracy to the extent you would have thought that. That's fair. Right. Well, it didn't really kill himself.

But then again, they released the video. There's like a one minute gap. It's like, why is there a one minute gap? And then again, on stage, and this is how you end up eating your own yon. On stage, it was not one of the clips I played, but at TPUSA, Charlie Kirk, even Kirk is like, can you just tell us who else was on the floor? Right? It's like, you know what I mean?

Like what other prisoners were on the floor? So we can like look to see if any of them might have connections or whatever. You know, you start putting the pins against the wall with the string. But I mean, I think that that like part of it, you know, is I guess the quote unquote conspiracy, but also it is odd. It's unusual, you know, raises some eyebrows. What do you think about the sort of the soft, you know, Trump supporters? I guess they can just, I mean, just see what the Wall Street Journal says and so on. I mean, will they just sort of dismiss it? Harriet and reported on CNN, I don't know how viable a thing this is, an indicator this

is, I assume what he said is true. There's a wild surge in Google searches for Trump at Epstein. And I take it that sort of feels to me like us getting half a million views out of Sarah and me for this 20 minute video Let's say normal people not necessarily maybe Trump supporters, but not MAGA world. They're not you know, I just like well What is the story here? What are the facts and the more people? get to a sort of Julie Brown level obviously not exactly at her level but a Simplified version of a Julie Brown level of understanding, well, what happened over these 20 years? And what happened over the 15 years before that when Trump and Epstein were great buddies?

And what is the real story? I think that hurts him in a slightly different way from the way you're describing with MAGA World, but in an additional way. It's sort of like the Myers thing. It hurts him with the base, didn't like it because she wasn't fervent enough, and like legal scholar types sort of thought, I thought he was going to like, I thought the new conservative legal originalism was John Roberts and it was serious people, you know, and it both can hurt, right? All right. Well, we'll continue

to monitor. I feel pretty happy. I'm kind of giddy and vindicated about the whole thing because I've been, I was so fucking annoyed the whole time and I was like how is this a left how is this a right-wing conspiracy it's like if anybody killed this fucking guy it's Bill Barr and Trump and I don't know if anybody did maybe kill himself but it's certainly not Hillary Clinton how was she gonna do it from Chappaqua walking through the woods I mean good for you for being on this earlier and I think it is it is important I mean one point that Julie made and I want to also just victims here deserve a word of concern and god knows sympathy and justice.

Some justice, at least as far as they can get justice for what happened to them, terrible things that were done. It never even occurs to Trump to say that. I was very struck by that. Or really to Bondi or Patel. They have one half sentence in that two page memo that's sort of about doing justice to the victims.

In their actual statements, in their tweets, there's nothing about that. That's somehow to be very, very revealing. Trump went out of his way to say he wished Maxwell well when she was arrested in 2020. Remember that from the White House podium? But he's never said anything about the victims. What does that say about Trump? Trump thinks about it as, I knew Jeffrey, he was a good friend, maybe I had a falling out with him, whatever. I'm sort of involved. Other people I know could well be involved,

other Trump donors, other God knows who else, right? I mean, in those circles. And we got to keep the lid on this. And there's not a moment of thought that there were hundreds, maybe a thousand or something like that, underage girls who were victims of this monster. Yeah, it's horrible. Yeah, I talked to Julie a lot about the victims during that first hundreds, maybe a thousand or something like that, underage girls who were victims of this monster. Yeah, it's horrible. Yeah, I talked to Julie a lot about the victims during that first convocation. It was a little bit outside of like kind of the political frame. We did a little politics. So again, people can go listen to that because her stories are really just astonishing and tough to listen to, but important to listen to. All right, guys, we are back with, you know, the most fun sponsor.

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I guess I want to start with immigration. Well, I was gone in MacArthur Park in Los Angeles. So I come back last night and I'm like, all right, I'm going to start reading about what the fuck happened this past week. And this story, I forget, you know, I'm like going through different newsletters and going through my old morning shots and all that, you know, reading through what happened. I was reading this one and I clicked on the PBS story. Dozens of federal officers in tactical gear and about 90 members of the California National

Guard were deployed for about an hour Monday to a mostly empty park in the Los Angeles neighborhood with a large immigrant population. Mayor Karen Bass, who we subsequently did an interview with about this, when I saw in the park, looked like a city under siege, under armed occupation. I was reading that story and I was like, wait, the military is still in Los Angeles? Like, why is the fucking military still in Los Angeles? And this morning as I was trying to catch up, I was like, what have they been doing for the last week?

It is truly crazy that the federal government is still taking control of the California National Guard and has deployed Marines to Los Angeles to just hassle people. Right. I think they were supporting the border Patrol people who were proudly riding through on horses. It was so third world and so horrible to see. I mean, certainly Los Angeles is not on the border. So we have the Border Patrol plus the National Guard in a park in LA where kids literally, it was a Monday, were like there for their camp. They go to the park to play soccer or something like that. I mean, that's who was there.

And it really brought home the kind of semi-fascism of the whole thing, honestly. It brought home, I think, the warnings of some of us that this wasn't gonna stop. Once they began this deport, the deportation thing just accelerates, right? And your point is so good about the Guard and the Marines. I think 200 Marines are now being sent to Florida

to help out with that horrible camp in the Everglades. I want to help, I don't know what, protect the ICE people, not that they're being attacked and they're picking up 70-year-old people. Remember, we all, I will say on this, called attention to this. That original executive order, the original justification was all open-ended. It wasn't only for LA. It wasn't only for California.

It was for any troops, C.D.s, wherever there could be a problem, wherever they had intelligence, there might be protests. I mean, Miller laid the groundwork for this and they're going ahead with it. Now, there is a pretty big reaction, I would say. You asked what you missed during the week. A few people were like, a little, really? This is not where we are? Plus, there's some business reaction, farmers' reaction against all the harassing of hardworking

people and a little more Trump voters saying over and over, this is a JVL obsession, of course. I didn't vote for this, even though they had mass deportation, printed up placards at the Republican convention, but they didn't think they were voting for this, I suppose. So anyway, that's... Yeah, here's the thing though. So there's this fascistic and, well, always with fascism, there is like a clownishness involved with it. So like there's the clownish side of it

too. Clint Clippenstein was reporting on that raid. They gave it a name, Operation Excalibur. And it was just like a totally botched laughing stock. He had some sources of the National Guard. He said, we were there for like 20 minutes. Nobody knew what they were doing. We all had different code names. It's like the border patrol is Pepsi and the Marines were Coke and ICE was A&W, Root Beer. And it was like the whole thing was ridiculous. It was just a farce. At some level, they're sad. And these errors are adding up. Just like I was trying to clean up on a couple of the stories that I talked about. This Narquiso Barranco, that was the father of the three US Marines that was violently

tackled and beaten up in LA. He is supposed to be released today. Donna Kashani is the Iranian woman that was gardening here in New Orleans, had been here for 60 years. She got released while I was gone after a couple of weeks. Last night, this guy, George Redis, I don't know if I've talked about him, but he is this disabled US veteran and US citizen that was like violently detained for several days in one of these raids. He got released after about three days. There's other examples of this, but you see

like the problem developing, right? Which is that the Congress just gave tens of billions of more dollars to ICE to go out and find and detain people. They're having to hassle, you know, and harass and detain people that are not violent criminals or major risks, like, already, before all those other resources. So, like, I mean, to me, that augurs very ominously through like what is coming down the pike. And it seems like the best case scenario is that we just spend billions and billions of dollars to have a bunch of guys sit around with their thumbs

up their ass, which might be what's happening right now in LA. I mean, that would be good, but they are deporting a lot of people. They are way beyond capacity in terms of the current detention capacities, capabilities, and they're building as in Florida with that Everglades thing, way beyond capacity in terms of the current detention capabilities. They're building, as in Florida with that Everglades thing, they're going to now spend all this money to build many more detention centers and to spend money to get them out

of the country, including now because the courts have given them a sort of green light on this, to third countries where they have no relationship and don't even speak the language and the South Sudan thing. Tom Homan, the sort of deputy in effect on this was like, we're gonna preside over the largest mass deportation in history, you can bet on it. So I think the cloudishness is real, as you said, it is characteristic of a lot of these kinds of movements,

political movements, but the fascism is real too, if I can put it this way. And they, yeah, I mean, will there be enough of a backlash that at some point Trump says, hey, I mean, this is getting a little out of hand. It is pretty unpopular. There was that one immigration poll that came out while you were gone. Did you see that?

Yeah. Where numbers have changed pretty radically across the board on immigration actually, but presumably in reaction to this stuff particularly in terms of your general views of are you favorable or well-disposed to immigrants or not? It's shot way up. Do you think we have too many of them or not. It's like shot way up. Do you think we have too many of them, too little? Too little has gone up, too many has gone way down.

I don't know. Does political reality hit at some point or is this the one thing they're going to do and they don't care? Homan and Miller are going to just, our friend Aaron Reichlin, Melnick, we've both done podcasts with said months ago, they're going to have trouble hiring all these people because here's how the procedure works. There's all kinds of qualifications and vetting. He did at the time say, of course, these procedures are at their discretion. I think Homan and Miller, they will hire every tough guy, thuggish guy, proud boy, someone

who got fired from a sheriff's department for beating up, you know, someone whose skin color he didn't like. They'll be, I mean, I hope not, but I very much worry that they'll be ice agents six weeks from now. And so, I'm slightly on the side of being super alarmed about where this goes, not reassured that they kind of are going to screw it up so badly. And Garrett Graff, who I might try to get on in the next

couple of weeks, wrote about this. He was covering this the last round. And he covered essentially the story of the CBP officers. There's a big hiring spree back then when they're pretending to build a wall or whatever on border agents. And one of the things he came away from it is it's messy. It's not like the FBI. There's not like that kind of vetting system.

They made some really bad mistakes. They hired people that had criminal records and they hired people that weren't prepared for this. And that was small compared to what they're trying to do now. Just one more thing on Everglades. Because it's in America, not in El Salvador, some Democratic members of Congress have been able to get in there. And, you know, I was watching Debbie Wasserman Schultz's press conference talking about it,

talking about how the conditions are very poor and Maxwell Frost was echoing that. The Miami Herald got, you know, the files of who is in the Everglades Detention Center. Hundreds of immigrants with no criminal charges are being held there. Maybe about a third of them have no criminal charges or 260 with pending criminal charges, 240 with criminal convictions. So it's like, are there bad people that are being caught? Yes, great. But does the manner in which they're

doing this mean that like we are holding people who did, who have done essentially nothing and like in cages and making them like lay next to violent criminals and shower next to them and eat, you know, like, yeah, like that, like both are happening. And I mean, I don't know enough about the law about exactly what I mean, obviously the border, it's a different situation than internally. You can't arrest people and just hold them indefinitely in the United States of America. At least, I didn't think you could. And you can't normally, and the New York City Police Department can't, and they can hold you 48 hours, and you call your lawyer.

And if they don't have charges with witnesses and the whole apparatus of the legal system, you leave, and you can also get bail. I mean, none of this here, right? They just hold them. and the whole apparatus of a legal system, you get to leave and you can also get bail. None of this here, right? They just hold them. I guess at some point they're going to ship them out based on their own determination. There's some provision for some legal help, sometimes it seems like, but they've taken laws that really were designed for the border. Someone sneaks across, he's half a mile across, they're not going to have a whole US style apparatus before we send that guy back to Mexico, right? I mean, that would be crazy and impractical.

But they're taking those kinds of rules and applying it to people who are gardeners in Florida or in California. It's really terrible. I mean, in that respect, the corruption it's doing to the country. I mean, I feel bad for the people obviously who are being detained above all, but the general corruption to the notion of the rule of law and all that is quite great as well. Michael Tomiskey pointed this out. I think potentially there's some political opportunity here for Democrats because yeah, I mean, the poll numbers have changed in immigration,

but they're, you know, maintains, you know, I think wrongheaded concern among some Democrats about like, whether this is a good issue and maybe they should stay away from immigration as much. He framed it in a way that I think is interesting that might allow some Democrats to get into this issue on a more comfortable and favorable turf. In 2023, the federal government spent $12.8 billion to build new affordable housing for people. The bill that passed a week and a half ago now has $45 billion on detention centers. When you think about the most fundamental issue that people have concerns about, like

housing costs, cost of living in this country, the government is prioritizing by about 4x, putting immigrants in detention centers, what they are prioritizing on providing housing for people. That kind of stuff, I think, really can resonate and get you into the more economic side of the stuff. Especially when there's so many stories about the people who are in these centers, who say have no criminal record or trivial one driving offense kind of record, and literally are working, are being hired on their way to jobs or having checked in as they are supposed to do legally to update

their status each month or whatever. It's one thing if, I mean, if you tell people you've got to spend $40 billion because there's so many violent criminals in this country, it's the only way to keep us safe. They'd say, okay, it's expensive to, law and order, but that's not the case here. So I think the combination is probably pretty effective. Even, Drew, even in that situation, it's like, do you want to live in a country where you're spending four times as much on prisons as you are on housing for people? And all of a sudden, I'm about to start sounding like a democratic socialist over here. But I do think that there is an

economic populist way to get into this. The floods in Texas, also horrible. I've got more to come on this with some guests coming later in the week and maybe next week over what's happening with FEMA and what's happening with the cuts to the National Weather Service and what is ahead. But just kind of a brief word, like, A, just the tragedy. And again, like the resource allocation questions. Like we've got, you know, a soldier standing outside the federal building in Los Angeles guarding nothing. And, you know, meanwhile, there are people dying in Kerr County and Texas because of these floods. You would think that maybe there'd be a better way to allocate resources.

But it seems to me just to be a pretty real failure, particularly with the Texas local government, which is kind of the point in these sort of situations. But I don't know if there was anything that struck you about Texas. No, I agree. And it does seem like it was true that FEMA was slow getting there because Kristi Nohme

insisted that she sign off personally on every $100,000 expenditure or something. And in fact, when FEMA really goes to a place, they always spend a fair amount of money getting people there. Obviously, they get plane tickets. And so, I don't know. There's been a lot of contradictory reporting, and correctly, people are more focused on the horrible tragedy for now. But it seems like neither the federal government nor the Texas government, state government,

have distinguished themselves in this, unfortunately. Yeah, more to come on this. I want to talk with you about trade stuff. So Trump now, after tacoing and untacoing a million times, it's now August 1st is the big day on the reciprocal tariffs for Europe. There's really a big New York Times take out of this about how the EU is still negotiating and drawing up any retaliation that they're going to do. But really more are just trying to reorient the trade map and the plans and figure out

how they can move forward without having to deal with, you know, the mad king in America when it comes to economic deals. And so you have that on the EU side of things. And then we have decided to have a tantrum and put a 50% tariff on Brazil because Trump doesn't like the treatment of Bolsonaro. I've got a pretty hilarious clip of Kevin Hassett trying to defend that, that I want to play in here in a second. But do you have any big picture thoughts on the latest, on the trade side of things before I do?

I mean, it's pretty bad. And somehow the markets have held up and the economy's mostly held up. But you do wonder, I don't know, people I trust who are sensible economists and not even fantastically anti-Trump necessarily, just think this is, the risk is getting greater and greater. And I guess if you think ahead politically, if you combine some of what we've seen on Epstein and some of what we've seen on immigration with some real faltering in the economy, the housing starts also down a lot.

Sorry, this is immigration related, incidentally. I don't know. I feel like, yeah, they could be heading for a rough time here politically because of that. Yeah, that economic thing is hard to kind of figure, right? It is. Because there are a lot of mixed signals. The market has been resilient. The US economy is big and dynamic and complex and it's like you have these little pockets

of areas where you're seeing negative signs, new people coming out of college, new hiring. It's tough right now, certain industries, right? But not like right after the liberation day where there were signs maybe there was going to be a widespread economic downturn. I mean, trade is something like what, 12% of the US GDP. I mean, these things, they're slightly overhyped in a way how we'll just destroy everything overnight. We can trade a lot with some of these countries and it's not going to matter much.

On the other hand, it does add up, supply chain. What do I know? But I feel like people, I think, who are sensible are much more bearish for three, six, nine months from now. It is such a big economy. We had pretty good momentum coming out of the Biden years, if I'm allowed to say that, and we have not to get into the crazy, we should forget about Biden,

coming out of the previous administration, that Trump was able to coast on that for a while. But I got to think all this is doing real damage. Your old friend, Kevin Hassett, I do just have to play a little bit from he's on TV. Folks don't know, Hassett, he was, I guess, an economist in good standing, maybe a little hackish during the Bush years, but fully went in with MAGA and the more, whatever you want to call this, protectionist economic plan. He was on with John Karl, and John Karl was just trying to get him to explain what is

the legal basis and what is the rationale for a 50% tariff on Brazil, a country that we have a trade surplus with and no national security concerns related to. I'd like to play for you the exchange. On what authority does the president have to impose tariffs on a country because he doesn't like what that country's judicial system is handling a specific case? Well, if he thinks it's a national defense emergency or if he thinks it's a national security threat, then he has the authority under AIIPA. So how is it a national security threat that, you know, how Brazil is handling a criminal

case against its former president? Well that's not the only thing. That's not the only thing. I mean- So what is it? I mean, I've asked what it is. I mean, it seems that that's what President Trump's talking about. He's talking about his anger and his frustration.

He's been quite candid about it with the Bolsonaro case. Right. Well, the bottom line is that what we're doing absolutely collectively across every country is we're onshore in production in the US to reduce the national emergency that is that we have a massive trade deficit that's putting it at risk should we need production in the US because of a national security crisis. And this is part of an overall strategy to do that. But again, as we've just established, we have a trade surplus with Brazil, not a deficit.

And we've had a surplus with Brazil for 18 years. How do you live with yourself? I mean, that is humiliating. Yeah, no, it is. Well, he's a hack. And I guess, you know, it's nice to see the hacks have to be even more self-evidently hackish than sometimes in defending these things. I'm not to get back to one of our favorite themes, but I'll just say it for 30 seconds.

Congress has authority over tariffs and trade. Congress could stop this tomorrow. They could stop the Brazil tariff. They could actually pass a law saying you can't impose use, which is misusing anyway. If we have an actual surplus for the country that you're using a trade deficit to justify these extraordinary measures. But of course, it all should be illegal. Maybe we'll see if one court did find some of it illegal, but Congress is the one that could snatch back authority. I mean, do the Republicans on the Hill, the combination of these things, does it ever,

ever, ever lead them to break a little bit? I mean, with Myers, which I was slightly involved in to get back to you, I hadn't really thought of that analogy. It was the Republicans. That wasn't me and David Frum or Laura Ingraham. It was the Republican senators finally, I think, Cornyn, maybe, and others like that, who had some stature on judicial matters saying, oh, no, we can't do this. We shouldn't do this.

I don't know. Does anyone ever do that in the era of Trump? Maybe only on this final issue, Ukraine. I mean, a lot of damage, a lot of death, a lot of unnecessary death in Kiev and other places throughout the country because, you know, Russia has continued to bombard them while they pretend to do peace deals, while we don't provide them even defensive weapons. But there's credible seeming reporting today that there might be an announcement that the US is going to be providing new weapons either to Ukraine or selling them to Europe and having

them give them to Ukraine. We'll see exactly how that works out. What do you make of that? I know I've got some thoughts, but what do you think? I mean, it's good. It's too little, too late, and so I hope it's not too little, but it's too late and better than nothing. And yeah, as you say, UK is the one issue where the Republicans, even last year, were willing to thwart, you know, go against Trump.

And I think there's some genuine belief there really, you know, they care and they think it's a disaster not to help Ukraine. So I hope they go ahead with it. And maybe this reversal of Trump, I don't know, politically, if it helps Trump or hurts Trump or people don't really care. I think it's interesting because, look, we've got, I don't know, how many thousand days left with this guy? Three and a half years. Whatever that makes up, it's 11, you know, 1200 days, something.

It is important to just be like real and like clear-eyed about like what we're dealing with. And I think that sometimes in the anti-Trump world, like people dip a little bit into kind of fantastical like thinking about it. And like this isn't like the Russia thing is a prime example, right? Because there have been two theories of the case always. Like one is like what I would call the Krasnov theory, that Trump is a Russian stooge, and that Trump is doing whatever Russia wants, and that we are going to slowly reorient ourselves to be in alliance with Russia. Who the hell knows what other implications come

with that? The other that I've always preferred, Frame, is that Trump is a man child that like, think that like once, you know, that dad didn't hug him enough, and that he wants to be respected. And he thinks that Putin is his friend. And he thinks that the other people were mean to him over Putin and that Putin was really nice to him. And that finally, far, far, far too late, he's starting to be like, wait a minute, maybe Putin's not nice to me, actually. And like, maybe this is wrong, you know, and Zelensky comes to meet him two weeks ago, puts on a suit. And God love Zelensky for doing this sort of shit. Having to suck up to Trump, I couldn't fucking do it. So puts on a suit,

you know, butters him up. And we'll see. Maybe that works, you play it out. But like I combine that with like, I was watching his interview with Lara Trump on Fox. She's real North Korea type shit over there. They have a future Senate candidate maybe daughter-in-law interviewing her father-in-law about how great he is. And she was asking about his legacy. Interesting question to ask with three and a half years left in the term. she was asking him about his legacy, an interesting question to ask with three and a half years left in the term. The first thing he says is like, I want people to think I'm a good person.

You don't over read any random sentence that comes out of Trump's mouth. But for me it was just one more data point towards like, I don't know, man, this humanist might feel like a sad pathetic person that like wants to be respected and liked and wants to be on Mount Rushmore and wants people to butter him up and treat him seriously. And in that like view, it is rational to do that, to do all the stupid shit that I refuse to do, but that these other guys have to do in

order to kind of get him to come around and like say, okay, fine, we can give some patriots to Ukraine. And if that happens, I just think that will be an important data point to assess and to like think about how to, you know, kind of process and deal with this fucking lunatic for the remaining time we have. I mean, I think the foreign leaders have really learned this and have internalized it. And I sort of like you, I don't blame them, especially not someone like Zelensky, whose nation is on the brink. But you're the head of NATO, did that ridiculous suck up text that Trump made? They're defending real, and they have real reasons, you know, their responsibilities

to their citizens to do this. I don't regret them this. That's very different from people at home strengthening him for the next three and a half years, which is the Republican Congress thing. But yeah, no, no, it's interesting that you're right. He's less, maybe a little less ideologically committed to destroying everything good in the world. He's still like ridiculous. The weakest is itself a huge problem. Obviously, it's not like Putin couldn't suck up to him for a week or something like that. And he does prefer dictators.

That's the final point I'd make. I mean, the Bolsonaro and Putin stuff, that's what he admires, you know? So it's not good, but it may not be quite as bad. No, it is not good. I don't want to put it in this. No, I know, I just think, but it's not quite as bad as some of our friends may sometimes have thought.

Yeah, I just, you know, I keep assessing, you know, I'm always like, I go back to that conversation I had with Chris Hayes on election night, where he was like, where we were like, he's like the band of outcomes is the widest possible, like it was literally like Trump could just golf and do nothing for four years and let the status quo go on and be happy he's not in jail,

or we could have nuclear winter, right? Like the band of outcomes was so wide. And I just, if the Ukraine weapons thing does go through, jail, or we could have nuclear winter. The band of outcomes was so wide. If the Ukraine weapons thing does go through, it'll just adjust me back one tick away from the worst possible outcome. Right. My little modification might be, I think the band of outcomes could be a little better than one might have feared in foreign policy for certain reasons that are unique to foreign

policy. If you want to be a success, you do have these other nations. I do think at home on the other hand, don't you think of the first six months that we've been pretty close to the red zone in the band of outcomes. I mean deportations and politicization of justice and the whole destruction of you know, our scientific research. I mean, it's that stuff has been really, well, bad. Yeah, not great. Close to the red zone.

But I don't know. Okay, well, we need a meter. I need to like create a meter, you know? Yeah, I was thinking that's right. I said the red zone thing, I was thinking of like one of those, you know, I don't know what I was thinking of exactly that there are those meters right there.

What do we do during the DHS? Now I know you want to get rid of DHS now, but in the original days of Tom Ridge, we had the threat assessment, you know, the orange and the yellow, and we can, uh, we'll have to go back to look at that. All right. Thanks to Bill Crystal. He'll be back next Monday. Uh, you and me, well, we need each other. So we're gonna be back here tomorrow with another edition of the Bulwark podcast. I'll see you all then and every single day this week. Don't worry about it. No holidays, no vacations. Bye, peace. I only wanna see the light that shines behind your eyes

I hope that I can say the things I wish I'd said To see myself to sleep and take me back to bed Who wants to be alone when we can't feel alive instead? You're alive instead Because we need each other We believe in one another And I know we are going to uncover We're sleeping in our soul

Because we need each other We believe in one another And I know we've got you on cover We're sleeping in our soul Sleeping in our soul Sleeping in our soul There are many things that I would like to know And there are many places that I wish to go

But everything's depending on the way the wind may blow The I see the light that shines behind your eyes The Bulldog Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brow.