The Bulwark Podcast - BONUS EPISODE with James Carville: We Are the Opposition

Episode Date: November 9, 2024

It's time to get our opposition organized and develop a narrative about Trump. And one narrative that's likely to emerge is how he betrayed his voters. Plus, did Kamala's interview on "The View" seal her fate?  James Carville joins Tim Miller. show notes Carville documentary, "Winning Is Everything, Stupid" (post-election recut out 11/14)

Hey Torontonians, recycling is more than a routine. It's a vital responsibility. By recycling properly, you help conserve resources, reduce energy use in greenhouse gas emissions, and protect the environment. Toronto's Blue Bin Recycling Program ensures the majority of the right items are recovered and transformed into new products. Recycling right is important and impactful. Let's work together and make a difference, because small actions lead to big change.

For more tips on recycling, visit toronto.ca slash recycle right. Hey Torontonians, recycling is more than a routine, it's a vital responsibility. By recycling properly, you help conserve resources, reduce energy use in greenhouse gas emissions, and protect the environment. Toronto's Blue Bin Recycling Program ensures the majority of the right items are recovered and transformed into new products. Recycling right is important and impactful. Let's work together and make a difference,

because small actions lead to big change. For more tips on recycling, visit toronto.ca slash recycle right. Hello and welcome to a bonus edition of the Bullwork Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. I'm here with the rage and cage and James Carville. He's got a documentary that one of our last podcasts was featured in and it is live on Max November 14th. Winning is everything stupid.

James, the last time you were here, we were talking about a Kamala Harris parade. I guess we had, they rained on our parade, brother. Yeah, well they did. And so let's just say, let's review the bidding. So you're not been in politics for a long time, right? And if the country wants something different, you try to give the country something different. And I think that this election really boiled down to two massive mistakes.

First, nobody gets out of July 21st. Understand that there's this massive amount of talent in the Democratic Party. As I say, playing, that's 350 hit us all over AAA ball. We just don't know it. And no, she gets out, he gets out of the 21st, and I told Adam DeGurney, we didn't even get a chance to kick the tires. We just said, you're buying the car and you have no choice. And of course we bought the car. But I think all people like a campaign that is reducible to one moment. And I think if this campaign is reducible to one moment, we're in a 65% wrong track

country, the country wants something different, and she's asked, it's so often the case, in a friendly audience, on the view, how would you be different than Biden? It's the one question that you exist to answer, all right? That is it. That's the money question. That's the one you want. That's the one that everybody wants to know to answer to. And you freeze.

You literally freeze and say, well, I can't think of anything. So we said 65% want something different. We are just not going to give in to them, but maybe the odiousness of Trump combined with the Dobbs decision, we can overcome it. Well, we didn't overcome it. But when we go back and history unearths this, it's going to be right there on the view. And I think her name was Sonny Houston, Houston, or whatever, asked the question. And that's the most devastating answer you could imagine.

I think that there are some limits to the value of various particular recriminations, given the broad scope of the movement towards Trump. So I want to talk about that a little bit in a second, but on this minor point of Biden, I think she was also worried about him. Right. I think that he got out late, and it also to me felt like that there was still an error of sensitivity around all of it.

People were walking around eggshells, they didn't want to hurt his feelings, rather than what should have happened, which is him saying, I'm passing the torch, you do what you need to do to win. I didn't feel like there was a sense of you do what you need to do to win. And didn't feel like there was a sense of you do what you need

to do to win, and I think she was torn a little bit by kind of loyalty and worrying about that. I bet you what the answer's gonna be, and the true answer's gonna be, people like him. He has a lot of friends, a lot of people really like him. She being one, and look, he gave me, mind you, big shot in politics and I'm a loyal person and I just couldn't do it. I was told to do it and I think she was and I just couldn't bring myself and that's why

winning is everything. Winning, when you have to win, it's more important than loyalty. It is everything. Yeah. If you don't win, you have done nothing. And unfortunately, we find that out the hard way. But I am sure that what we're told, what happened on The View is gonna be, well, they had given me the answer,

but I just couldn't get the words out of my mouth. That's a very human thing, but when you're running for president, you're not allowed to have human reactions to the most fundamental question in the election. And that is, how are you going to be different than what you got? And we flubbed it. The hardest thing about this for me, James, is that like, I don't know, maybe there's some elections where winning is not everything. Maybe there are times in life where doing the moral thing is important or maintaining

your integrity or saving yourself for down the line. But if there was ever a time when winning was everything, it was this time. You're right. And we've been in elections and you're for Mitt Romney, if it's Obama, if it's Bob Dole or Clinton. You want to win. You think you have better ideas. Here it's just fundamentally the director of national intelligence says it's his view and people in the whole intelligence that he's being blackmailed by Putin. Jesus, how bad can you get?

But I don't like the price of eggs. Okay. But we're going to pay dearly for this. I mean, we're really going to pay. Mad Fientist I do want to get into the price of eggs element of this and the inflation. But one other thing just kind of about the campaign itself, looking back, that I wanted to talk to you about. Because the last time we were on, I said to you that one of my worries was I just watched

the documentary for the first time. And it's showing the old clip of the whiteboard. It's the economy's stupid. What about health care? You get your three points on the whiteboard. First thing was change versus more of the same. We were the more of the same candidate. We staked out a position to be the more of the same candidate.

And I said to you in that podcast, I was like, what are her three things? If yours is change versus more of the same, it's the economy's stupid and don't forget healthcare. What were her three? And I just, the big moments were good, the set pieces were good, the speeches were good, the debates were good, so I don't want to come off as overly nitpicky, but at the narrative level,

what were the three things? That was something that was sticking in my brain the whole time as a worry, that I don't know that regular people knew. We doubled down on more to say. Yeah. All right. And then the second thing was,

it actually said the economy's stupid, but if you want to say it's the economy's stupid, that's fine. And we tried to convince people that it was, and it probably was better than it was given credit for, but that's not a case you're going to be able to make in a month. Yeah.

So we, in health care, didn't figure into it, in case you're going to be able to make in a month. And healthcare didn't figure into it, but on the two basic fundamentals, we flubbed it. And people go to all, by the way, she had every advantage. We had a united party from Dick Cheney to AOC. Everybody was, whatever you want to do is fine. We had more people on the ground. We had more volunteers. We had more money.

We had more surrogates. But we didn't have a reason. Since the dawn of time, since the first Greek stood in the middle of Athens and said, this election is a choice, all right? And we have had every piece of technology and you can imagine print and presses, you know, radio, TV, computer, AI, algorithms. it's still a reason, it's the most powerful motivating thing in all of politics. And you cannot not have a reason and beat it with technology or beat it with volunteers or do that.

And that's the overall message here, Tim. A reason, and she didn't give us a reason. I mean, I guess in fairness, the reason, I think what they would say is freedom, right? Like we're turning the page, but it was a little surface level. It was, yes. I mean, I'm shorting a second.

Well, we had a housing plan, and you did. Great, okay, the housing plan. And you did. Great. Okay. The housing plan is number one. And if we would have had this process, would have had gone through it, and we'd have had this mega level of talent that exists, and all of these people would have been different, they would have been energetic, it would have created a sense of real excitement. Biden, he just blocked all that from happening. I'm sorry, didn't he go to after the election,

he says, you know, we're going to be fine. I mean, he's just Kevin Bacon, like all is well, calm down, all is well, just stay in place, okay? Don't worry. It's all under control Don't you love that scene? I do animal house. Yeah, and that's what that is, right? And that's what we're good. We we have the animal White House coming and yeah, I know I didn't like it either I mean, I know you feel like you're under the president and you want to follow the rules

But I think there are legitimate things to be worried about, you know And like I just think sanding down the danger is not really helpful. Hey Torontonians, recycling is more than a routine. It's a vital responsibility. By recycling properly, you help conserve resources, reduce energy use and greenhouse gas emissions, and protect the environment. Toronto's Blue Bin Recycling Program ensures the majority of the right items are recovered and transformed into new products. Recycling right is important and impactful. Let's work together and make a difference, because small actions lead to big change. For more tips on recycling, visit toronto.ca slash recycle right. Hey Torontonians, recycling is more than a routine. It's a vital responsibility.

By recycling properly, you help conserve resources, reduce energy use in greenhouse gas emissions, and protect the environment. Toronto's Blue Bin Recycling Program ensures the majority of the right items are recovered and transformed into new products. Recycling right is important and impactful. Let's work together and make a difference, because small actions lead to big change. For more tips on recycling, visit toronto.ca slash recycle right. The other thing I really wanted to talk to you about, I mean, thinking about both the

movie and your life, you know, you come from regular folk, you know, and the Democrats, the main takeaway from the election, if you get out of the political strategist stuff with nitpicking, messaging and speeches and whatever, tactics, like the thematic thing is like, the Democrats just did worse across every demographic group, that is a working class, does non-college, black, Hispanic, Asian, Native American, white, everybody. Like if you did not have a college degree and are upper middle class, the Democrats

lost ground with you. That seems to me like just a massive problem. And I just, I kind of open-ended question. Is it fixable? What do you do to fix it? Like how did the party get here? I kind of open-ended question. Like is it fixable? What do you do to fix it? Like, what do you what do you? How did the party get here? So one thing I'm no longer criticized for and people have said, you know what?

I know you're right James when I used the term quote preachy females unquote Oh boy, that meant coastal over educated lecturing But the other thing that happened in my new name for it, I call it identitarianism, but most people refer to it as wokeness. We couldn't wash the stench off of us. I mean, she didn't embrace it, to be fair to her. She never used any of that language. Wals didn't embrace it to be fair to her. She never used any of that language. Walsh didn't use it.

But people were still remembering that. On election day, there was a prosecutor in Alameda County, which you're a resident of, I think, or used to be for sure. Yeah, used to be. Which is they recalled her by 30 points because she was an advocate of a deputarianism, which is not even popular in Berkeley. Yeah, right. Okay, I mean, that's how unpopular.

No, or San Francisco. San Francisco got rid of their mayor, got rid of the most obnoxious city council member. Oakland got rid of their mayor and prosecutor. We're still dealing, although she didn't, no one talks like that anymore. The stench of it, it's like I tell people, you know, your clothes, you get fireplace and you get to see your clothes smell smoky. Somebody's smoking a cigar in the room, or you smoke a cigar.

And then you put your shirt on the next morning, god damn thing stinks. You got to wash it twice. That's what they did to us. They were cigar smoking our clothes and we couldn't get the smell off. It was bad. And people keep telling me today, well, I don't like the folks, I don't like the, what left of the Democratic Party, I don't like all that, you know, old shit. When no one, we did, it was a mistake.

And, you know, I go back and I did that box interview in the spring of 2021. It was just evident that this was a really dumb, backwards looking, NPR idiotic move. And of course we all came to realize that, but it was too late. What do they do? I mean, how do you get working people back? So, assuming that...

Oh, you mean, so this is what we do. So Crystal's piece is the rallying point. All right. We're all in an opposition party. Understand that. Understand what our opposition party. Understand that. Understand what an opposition party is. An opposition party by nature has no power. So Hakeem or Schumer, you know, maybe they can get a couple of things that they need, but they're not going to get anything. So we have to start

acting like an opposition party. This is the most radical, and don't laugh when I tell you this idea. Okay? No promises. This is the most radical and don't laugh when I tell you this idea. Okay? No, sir. You don't have private equity looks to some existing place that has a distribution network, but is a kind of failed company they're going to buy. We ought to take over the DMC. They have a charter, they have a building, they have tax exempt status. They can put people in and put communicators in there and put people there that know how to be part of the opposition and have a research side and crank out the distribution tables

on what and settle on a narrative about Trump in the narrative that I think we should be about Trump is betrayal. That he betrayed you. Look, you aren't often changed. He said he was for the middle class, he said he was for the working people, he said, and as soon as they do this, you know what they're gonna do.

You already know they're gonna write the tax code for Elon Musk and Peter Thiel, all right? Get ready for it, You know it's coming. It's just, you know it. It's not coming, James. It's not coming, James, it's already here. I'm just pulling this up here. Axios this morning, we're taping this on Friday,

Axios this morning, big winners to watch, oil and gas, crypto and tech firms, Musk's companies and banks are all poised to benefit from Trump's agenda. Are those the forgotten men? Yeah, I would like to ask the kind of Latino male that voted for Trump. Was this what you were voting for?

Do you think that the banks and all companies and Musk, do you think they lack power? Yeah, I didn't like, you know, I liked them. Okay, fine. And we have to tell them that. And you know, people say, I'm going to, my kid is going to, I don't know, UCLA and they want to be in the politics. What should they study?

They should study the history of the Bible because every message in politics comes the history of the Bible, because every message in politics comes right out of the Bible. And the whole Trump people, he's King Cyrus, he's the strong guy, no, he betrays you. And betrayal is a big part of the Bible. And as opposed to telling people that they were wrong, which is a hard thing to do,

well, you thought he was gonna do this, and look what he did. Now you know. That's Blue Bin Recycling Program ensures the majority of the right items are recovered and transformed into new products. Recycling right is important and impactful. Let's work together and make a difference because small actions lead to big change. For more tips on recycling, visit toronto.ca slash recycle right.

To the Democrats have, I know that you said they got a bunch of 350 hitters across. And I think that that's true, especially for the midterm electorate, which is, which is much more college educated, you know, uh, uh, the, the type of electorate of people that show up and off year elections are, are much more democratic friendly. And so I think that they've got a lot of strong bench for midterms. Do they have a good, do they have a strong bench for talking to the working class people that the parties want?

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, you never see Bashir, Spiro, or Westmore, or Warnock. I hate just giving names. Yeah, sure. But do that and you say somebody. So what they should do, and this is kind of weird, we should have, we did it back in the 80s, we should have a mini convention in the summer of 2026.

And we should invite top tier candidates to speak to the convention and maybe have like a straw poll. You have to create, you have to show people you have all of this talent, okay? We gotta play an exhibition game. Or we have to have home run derby and let these guys come up and just crush batting practice pitches and hit them 400 feet. And let people see that.

I mean, let people see that there's help out there, there's hope out there. We kept all of these people. Mitch, you know, they would never do this. He probably wouldn't take it because it's thought to be a dead-end job, although in the right set of circumstances, it doesn't have to be. I would make Mitch the chairman of the DNC. I would have him as the, you know, going on TV and putting Paul Bregala out there on Sunday morning shows as a communications director

or something. I mean, somebody that knows how to deliver a message, knows how to frame an argument, knows how to do all the stuff that we weren't able to do in this cycle. But there's talent out there, dude. We just, we got to get, we got to, we got to have a home run Derby.

Let them all speak to a fake mini convention in the summer of 2026. There's just so much Mary in the film. I have to ask what she'd think about all this. Well, she's coming up tomorrow, but I expect she's pretty happy. But the really interesting backstory of the movie is, is the director said, there's

two people I have to have, James. I have to have Bill Clinton and I have to have Mary to make this work. And I said, I can get you Bill Clinton, but I can't get you Mary. So he takes her to dinner at Cafe Milano, and he says he's like, and he's trying to persuade her, and she's, and the actual, the hero of the whole movie is Gore Vidal, because Matt, the director, used to work with Gore Vidal at Vanity Fair,

and Mary had read all of Gore Vidal's books, and Gore Vidal read a really good review of, Mary and I wrote a good review of Mary and I's book in the New York Review of Books, which kind of set the tone, you know, like Goldford Al and New York Review of Books, who's gonna, so that was the common thing. So he gets her to say yes,

and set out into Shenandoah Valley, and he gets to talk for six hours. But the cameraman didn't have a tripod. And the guy is sitting there dying, you know? Holding the camera up, and he's like, you know, we got all of this, and she was spectacular in it. I mean, just spectacular. She looked great.

I mean, she was very honest sometimes to my detriment. But, you know, and I think it was good for her to get, you know, some of the stuff out. But she, the movie would not be the movie without her. Without her, it would have been a pretty good movie. With her, it's way better than a very good movie. And I mean, I know it's a good movie, and that being arrogant about it,

it's a good director, it's well put together, it's well lit, it's well edited, it carries a narrative, I mean the whole thing. But without Mary, it doesn't work like this at all. I agree. All right, what are your fears? What are you worried about? What are your feelings?

Everything. I don't know about you. I mean, to start with Ukraine. I start with like, I don't know, right? Somebody, I'm going to have to sit down with a person to explain to me the Palestinian mind that in effect turned over US Middle East policy to Donald Trump and B.B. Net Yahoo. I don't know how they could possibly think this was a good idea, but they do. That would be the beginning.

So the three, this is November the 8th, I guess, today, the 6th, yeah, the 8th. There are three systems in the Atlantic basin right now. There's a category three in the Gulf of Mexico. Fortunately, it's going to go west. By the time it gets to Mexico, it will not. But you have a category three on November. Maybe this is real, but that's just one thing to think about. Climate change, you mean?

Right. And of course, the corruption that we're getting ready to go through and the consequences of it are going to be just draconian for the country. And I notice, and the only thing that we can do is we have to be all part of the opposition and we have to oppose, oppose, oppose. They got all the power in the world and they're going to run right over all of the people that voted for them. They're going to run right over all of the other people and all we can do is like rally

the opposition, hold them off, get to 2028. So yeah, James, well, I didn't want to be in the opposition with you, but I'm happy to be in the opposition with you. And we have no choice. We have no choice. You know, it was like the guy that won the Bellavanna and he said, if there was some way for me to run, I would have run, I didn't want to,

but I didn't know where to go. So I just had to shoot everybody. Well, we're going to do the best we can and we'll keep the combo flowing. Thanks for, thanks for always hanging with us. And I appreciate, you I appreciate your efforts. Thank you, go Tigers, man. Go Tigers.

Thanks to James Carville. Go check out on Max November 14th, his movie, Winning Is Everything Stupid. We'll see y'all soon, peace. Thank you. All of my tears are in vain I just lost, lost, lost my I still love him with all my heart Never, never, never baby did I want to fall? But in spite of all the wrong he's done

I just cry on, I just cry on But maybe one day before long You might decide to come back home I have no relief You got me living on lonely street All of my fears are in vain I just lost, lost, lost my man But in spite of all the wrong he's done I just cry on I just cry on Cry, cry, cry, cry, cry, cry, cry, cry, cry, cry, cry, cry, cry, cry, cry, cry, cry, cry,

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