The Bulwark Podcast - Cassidy Hutchinson: Why I Testified

Episode Date: November 7, 2023

Next year's election is not a vote for a Democrat or a Republican: It's a vote for the survival of our nation. Cassidy Hutchinson joins Charlie Sykes to discuss her break with Trump world, speaking truth to power, and steering herself back to the right side of history. show notes: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Enough/Cassidy-Hutchinson/9781668028285

If it's a flat or a squeal, a wobble or peel, your tread's worn down or you need a new wheel, wherever you go, you can get it from our Tread Experts. Ensure each winter trip is a safe one for your family. Enjoy them for years with the Michelin X-Ice Snow Tire. Get a $50 prepaid MasterCard with select Michelin tires. Find a Michelin Tread Experts dealer near you at treadexperts.ca slash locations. From tires to auto repair, we're always there. TreadExperts.ca Welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm Charlie Sykes. I think you all remember what happened in June 2022 when a little-known

White House aide named Cassidy Hutchinson went before the January 6th committee and delivered some of the most riveting and important testimony of that entire investigation. He looked at me and said something to the effect of, Cass, are you excited for the 6th? It's going to be a great day. I remember looking at him and saying, Rudy, could you explain what's happening on the 6th? He had responded something to the effect of, we're going to the Capitol. It's going to be great. The president's going to be there. He's going to look powerful. He's going to be with the members. He's going to be with the senators. Talk to the chief about it. Talk to the chief about powerful. He's going to be with the members. He's going to be with the Senators. Talk to the Chief about it. Talk to the Chief about it. He knows about it.

And did you go back then up to the West Wing and tell Mr. Meadows about your conversation with Mr. Giuliani? I did. After Mr. Giuliani had left the campus that evening, I went back up to our office and I found Mr. Meadows in his office on the couch. He was scrolling through his phone. I remember leaning against the doorway and saying, I had an interesting conversation with Rudy. Mark, sounds like we're going to go to the Capitol. He didn't look up from his phone and said something to the effect of, there's a lot going on, Cass, but I don't know. Things might get real, real bad on January 6th. And things did get real, real bad on January 6th.

Joining me on the podcast today, Cassidy Hutchinson, who is out with a new bestselling memoir, Enough. First of all, thanks for coming on the podcast, Cassidy. Thank you for having me, Charlie. I'm happy to be here. So the basic question is that with all of the president's men, all of these grown-ass presidential aides, why was it you? Why was it a 26-year-old aide who made the decision to come out and tell that story, to give that firsthand account of being in the room, the lead up to January 6th, what happened on January 6th. So why do you think it was you? Why didn't the guys step up and do what you did, Cassidy? You know, this question,

I've thought a lot about this, and it never gets easier to answer because I don't like to speculate about other people's mindsets or intentions. And, you know, I would also like to give credit to the Department of Justice, who has an ongoing investigation. And I do think a lot of investigation should go on behind closed doors. But I think back to where we were at in the summer of 2022. And in my opinion, there has not been a massive mentality shift, but there has been a slight mentality shift away from this cult-like Trumpism. At least, I guess guess in my experience, but maybe it's because I'm on the other side of it now. In terms of why it was me, you know,

I can only answer for myself. And I know that I've reached a moral crossroads in April of 2022, where I felt that not only did I have the moral obligation to come forward with more information and to be more forthcoming with the committee, but I had betrayed the oath that I swore to protect and defend our country and our constitution. And I saw a slight window of time where I could potentially correct course, and I wasn't doing it in any way to try to have a revisionist history. I think in the book is abundantly clear that I try not to, I take full accountability for all of my missteps and the actions that I wish I had changed. But I do hope that by me coming forward, it either helped inspire or give others the courage to come forward, or it helped at least open up a roadmap because I came forward because I thought that it was important

to hold these people also under the court of public opinion. Okay, so let's go back to that, that April. That April was that moment when you had that moment of moral clarity. Let's walk through that. You had been a loyal White House aide and loyalty is a very important value for you. You watched what happened on January 6th.

So tell me what happened in April where you decided that you were going to take this radical path of coming out and telling the truth. I wish that we didn't have to say it was a radical path. And I think this is a total sidebar. You know, this is also, I guess, relating to the question you asked before, because in my opinion, this shouldn't be seen as some radical path. We're just in this unfortunate state of our democracy and in our history where speaking the truth about things that actually happened when he swore an oath to do so is seen as some radical transition

you know and i also say like it shouldn't have been me sitting there that day it should have been a lot of other people that have more information than i do. But anyway, sorry, you said radical path. It just made me think of that because it's just sad to me. Fair point. So April of 2022, I was working with Trump-affiliated counsel at that point. I had underwent two recorded depositions with the committee in February and March. And after each deposition, I went into my depositions with the committee in February and March. And after each deposition, you know, I went into my depositions with the committee. I'd search for my own counsel that I could pay for or afford on

my own, or that would put me on a payment plan. And I didn't have any luck with that. So I turned to Trump World for counsel. You're not from a wealthy family. This is very, very expensive, right? And so, right, you had a Trump paid for attorney. I think that's also often overlooked and something that is deserving of more attention is not necessarily the trump world issues are large and they're prevalent especially going into this next election year but also just the general cost of all of this to bring perspective to the american people about that but after each deposition i went into them wanting to be forthcoming but i didn't feel empowered to

be forthcoming and i tried to't feel empowered to be forthcoming. And I tried to bury the guilt that I felt after each deposition until I reached the evidence in front of me that I couldn't, I could no longer live in denial. I could no longer live in the state of denial. Not only that I had betrayed my country and the oath that I swore, but I had betrayed the person that I thought that I wanted to become when I entered public service. How had you done that? What was the betrayal? In my opinion, the betrayal happened when I lost sight of the fact that I went into public service to serve the principle, the PLE principle. And I grew to have a very strong loyalty to Donald Trump and to Mark Meadows. You know, again, it's not necessarily a negative thing, loyalty, but it's when you begin to prioritize your loyalties to an individual over the greater cause. And I did do that. And I

had lost sight of who I was and I had lost myself for a while. And I don't look back on that or say that with any ounce of pride. It's a very shameful thing for me to admit, but I was complicit in a lot of this. So did you tell your Trump paid for lawyer that you wanted to be more forthcoming? What were they telling you to do? And how did you end up getting a new lawyer? Because this obviously was one of the crucial turning points in this whole story. Yeah. So when I received my Trump World Council, we met one time before my first deposition. And I went in fairly forthcoming to him about how I wanted to conduct myself in the interview. But I also felt sort of the split between two worlds. And I, you know, I had been in Trump world. I knew the strings, invisible strings, I guess I should say,

that come attached with accepting counsel from Donald Trump. And that was something that I wanted to avoid, but I also knew that I didn't want to have a target on my back. So I wasn't completely explicit about everything, but I was forthcoming about things that I knew that I thought I should share, tactics that I wanted to learn. I had never done a deposition before. It was my first time ever needing an attorney too. So I had been fairly forthcoming with my counsel and I was encouraged to say as little as possible. And I go into a lot of detail about it, both in my interviews with the committee, which are all in the public record, specifically the September ones address this issue. There's over 900 pages in case anybody ever is interested, but I also go into detail about it in the book.

So fast forward to April, I have this moral crisis or this sense of clarity where I'm trying to reach. Few things happen. I reach out to a member of Congress that did not serve on the January 6th committee and is a Republican. And they encouraged me to go look in the mirror and tell if I could pass the mirror test for the rest of my life, knowing how I had conducted myself and what I had wanted to share. I decided no. So I reached out to my best friend, Alyssa Farrah Griffin. And I also actually read The Last of the President's Men by Bob Woodward, which featured Alex Butterfield. Went through one more interview

with the committee, and they were still interested in talking to me more throughout the month of June. So at that point, I realized that I needed to make a break with my Trump-affiliated counsel and find my own. So let's talk about what happened in June. In your conversations with Liz Cheney and others, you decided that you were going to testify in public. You knew that that was going to be a life-changing event. So how did Liz Cheney or whoever it was talk you into going out in public, being on camera,

being in front of the entire nation and saying these things? I don't want to say anybody talked me into it. I would say people opened my eyes to the gravity of the moment that we were facing and how important it was to have my voice and my physical presence testify to all of this live. I didn't want to testify live up until the moment I walked out. I did not want to have to do it, but I recognized that there was an importance to it. Liz Cheney has been an absolute, I mean, she's an incredible force. She is an American patriot. I think she, no matter what your political affiliation is, she's somebody that we should all strive to be like. She has the heart of a founding father and

she cares about this nation. And I think to see somebody like Liz Cheney, who is more conservative than a lot of current members of Congress, sit on the dais next to Democrats with Adam Kinzinger, who's also an American patriot. And to have that image is so striking in this day and age. And I've been profoundly inspired by Liz throughout this journey, although this sort of diminishes and makes it sound like it's a bachelor. So after I retained my new counsel, I went in for another interview. And at that point, I felt that I was welcomed or I was being welcomed more back onto the right side of history. And between Liz and my lawyers and the committee members and the committee staff, after meeting with them and discussing the prospect of a live hearing, I realized that it was important not only for

the American people, but for women and for little girls to see that one person is enough to create change in this country. And it only has to start with one person. But that it's also important to have somebody that is willing to speak truth to power. So let's talk about the timing which you discuss. The timing of this was very, very unexpected at the time. It was a special session. There was concern that you might be pressured, threatened. Yeah, and you know, I would refer to the committee on some of those items too, or members of the committee that had served or staffers just because they had more intel than I was receiving. At some points, I had to focus on certain things I didn't necessarily want to know about the prospective threats that they were gathering. But no, I knew the day that I decided to formally switch counsel that no matter what I did going forward, I'd be subjected to the vitriolic threats from

Trump world and the character bashing, the character assassinations. I was in that world. You knew all that was coming, right? You knew all that was coming. I knew it was coming. I would be doing myself a massive disservice if I didn't admit that to myself. So I knew it was coming. I had prepared for it as much as I possibly could, but I also constantly found myself thinking about the fact that I had once been part of that process. And I know it's what was going to go on inside Trump world in those days following the hearing. And that was something that I had made peace with. It's different though, when you're on the other side of it and actually experiencing it because I, you you know I didn't want to fuel any of what they're saying because I spoke the truth and

anybody that has other things to say should go under oath and testify themselves but it was a very jarring experience to experience it firsthand if it's a flat or a squeal a wobble or, your tread's worn down or you need a new wheel. Wherever you go, you can get it from our tread experts. Ensure each winter trip is a safe one for your family. Enjoy them for years with the Michelin X-Ice Snow Tire. Get a $50 prepaid MasterCard with select Michelin tires. Find a Michelin tread experts dealer near you at treadexperts.ca slash locations. From tires to auto repair, we're always there at treadexperts.ca slash locations. From tires to auto repair, we're always there, treadexperts.ca.

One of the things I was hoping for from your book, which you did deliver, was the answer to the question I think a lot of people had after your testimony, which was, who is this person? Where did she come from? How did she end up working for Donald Trump? How does a 26-year-old young woman have this kind of, you know, the willingness to do what she has done and the role that you played? And you do describe this.

So, you know, you talk a lot in the book about your family and what inspired you. And I remember I was watching you. I was in a hotel room in Colorado watching this thinking, okay, I want to know more about her parents, how she got to be at this particular point. You were kind of an old soul, weren't you? You got interested in politics very young. You described going to Washington, D.C. in second grade and deciding that that's where you want to be. So, I mean, this goes back a long way. Your story, the trajectory of Cassidy Hutchinson into the White House began pretty young, didn't it? It sort of did. And I look back on that now too,

and with the hindsight that I have, and I think about that first DC trip and I knew fairly, I moved around a lot too as a child up until I graduated high school. And that was just something that was normal to me. I grew up in a working class family. My parents divorced when I was 10. My mom had primary custody of both my brother and I, but they did have a messy divorce. And I was the intermediary between my parents. It sounds like that's where you got some of your diplomatic skills. I'm trying to address your question in pieces here. But my father, my biological father, I don't remember him ever being anything but completely hostile towards the government. So when I went to D.C. that first time, he went and visited my aunt and uncle who had just moved to D.C. And he's in the military.

And he was my uncle is a force in my life and has been one of the biggest inspirations. Yeah, my Uncle Joe. It was that first trip. And I look back on it now and I sort of chalk it up to almost probably a sense of premonition. But I remember crying when I left DC that trip because I didn't want to go back to Jersey. I wanted to be in DC. At that point, I didn't really understand why or maybe it was just because my aunt and uncle were there. But I felt this inexplicable draw to Washington. And then as I grew older and developed this, almost a sense of calling towards public service and trying to learn how to navigate that in a family that was openly hostile toward the

government. And it was really the 2012 election, I think, that sort of solidified for me that I was going to enter public service in the realm of politics. It just sort of is what felt the most natural at that time. One other anecdote you talked about was, it sounds like you were like about 10 years old or in fourth grade. You remember sitting with your dad and your dad was, your biological father was watching Donald Trump on The Apprentice.

Apparently he was a big fan of the show. And you actually had an exchange that you wished, I don't want to put words in your mouth, you wish he would spend as much time with you as he did watching The Apprentice. So that was your introduction to Donald Trump and maybe the role that Donald Trump had in people's lives? Potentially. And I intentionally included that scene to, one, to shed light on how I grew up and where I came from. But two, I think that there is an element of my story that if these people were to read it, they will be able to find something in it.

And I think for me, and I think about all of this, I think about my family. And I think I did vote for Donald Trump in 2016. And I did see something in him where at first I voted for him in 2016 not thinking that he would win. And then I went to my first Trump rally, and I remember standing in the crowd. And it's this incredible moment to look back on now, but I'm standing in the crowd at my first Trump rally. I supported him, but very loosely. And I was getting ready to have my first internship on Capitol Hill that summer. And I'm about six rows behind the stage, six to 10 rows behind the

stage. And he walks out, you just have this electrifying feeling. And I remember looking around and most, if not all of the people who I was immediately surrounded by were people that I felt like I recognized, not because I knew them, but because I had grown up around people like them. It was a lot of working class peoples, a lot of people who looked very moved and looked like they actually saw something in Donald Trump. And they were first time voters, people that they felt that he actually represented them and their interests. And that's the moment for me that I really think that I was pulled into the Donald Trump movement where I felt for the first time

that electrifying and drawing, the draw of Donald Trump, where he was potentially there to represent people like my family. And I say that about my father too, because my father was a very, and is a very hardworking man. And we do have a strained relationship, but I don't look back on anything with him as a negative. I think all of it was foundational to who I ended up becoming. But you were not a natural Trumpist. You were describing the 2012 campaign as being kind of a turning point. And you describe how, again, you're 14 or 15, and you're watching the Obama-Romney debates. And that's what got you interested in politics. There was something about Mitt Romney

that you liked. I mean, so in your formative years, you became a Romney Republican. Which is the cardinal sin in Trump world. I can't ever say that. No, but I mean, Mitt Romney was my hero through high school. And I still think Mitt Romney is a hero. I never say that. No, but I mean, Mitt Romney was my hero through high school. And I still think Mitt Romney is a hero. I never wavered from that. Although I did participate in the partisan gamemanship around it. Does Mitt Romney know you feel this way about him? if you'd say the same, but I wasn't the natural Trump supporter, but I think I was a natural fit in the administration. And that might be getting too deep for the limited time that we have. But I will say just to touch on that really quickly, though, I didn't set out to work in the Trump administration intentionally. It's something that happened. I used to say I was at the right place at the right time, whether it was the right place at the wrong time or wrong

place at wrong time, I don't know. When I set out to work, I really wanted to work on Capitol Hill. And it was an incredible opportunity to work at the White House. And I'm very glad that I had that opportunity. But it wasn't something that I intentionally sought to have straight away. Obviously, this is the question that people have is, you know, that given the person that we saw in the testimony, and since then in your book, how did you end up in this dysfunctional place working for someone like Donald Trump? And I'm going to leave out all the adjectives that I would normally use here. On the other hand, I think that people do need to understand that, you know, being in Washington, D.C., having an opportunity to work at the White House, that's hard to turn down. Yes and no. It would be very easy for me to turn down if there were an

opportunity extended a second time, although there never would be, hypothetically speaking. You know, I think in writing this book, I've been able to process a lot of what actually happened from 2016 through my testimony and in this past year that I never would have thought about in this light. So I'm very grateful for this time. Donald Trump showed us who he was, has shown us who he was throughout his entire life. He showed us who he was in 2015 and in 2016, leading up to the first election. Unfortunately, eyes like mine weren't opened to that. And I did vote for him. And I did work for him. I say all this because 2020 had a different election outcome, thank God. But we're looking down the barrel at potentially a second Trump term now. And I think

that we need to spend a lot of time right now opening people's eyes. Well, I mean, one of the themes of this podcast is, you know, soul crushing disillusionment, regrets, and, you know, possible redemption. So what was the moment you're in the White House, you obviously got a great deal of responsibility, because there was so much infighting between the various age, you saw these folks, you saw Rudy Giuliani, you saw Mark Meadows. Was there any moment where you're looking around going, who are these guys? Why am I here? Was it December? Was it November? Was it during the campaign? When did the scales begin to fall, Cassidy? I would say the scales really began to fall after the end of the administration. Only then. I go back because there were a lot of moments, both during the campaign, more so in late

December through January of 2021, where I had that awakening moment of, you know, this is wrong. These things shouldn't be happening. This is not normal. But when you're in that environment, and I'm not is not normal. But when you're in that environment, and I'm not excusing, but when you're in that environment, the communications machine is so powerful and you're surrounded by people if you deter from what they think. Not that civil conversation isn't encouraged, but if you point things out like that, you're seen as a traitor,

you're seen as disloyal. It's this very odd concept to sort of describe it, this warped mindset of convincing myself, either don't think about it like this, don't think about the craziness, don't think about the dangers of all this, or it's not your role to think about it like this. You're here to do a job. Especially the days leading up to January 6th, on January 6th, after January 6th, I'm careful to say that the skills had fallen because I think I really started to process a lot of this after the end of the administration. But I was very firm in the belief that before January 6th, that we were at fault for what was potentially going to happen. card with select Michelin tires. Find a Michelin Tread Experts dealer near you at treadexperts.ca

slash locations. You described that December 18th, 2020 was the real turning point. You know, this was the day that crazy White House meeting with Michael Flynn, Sidney Powell, Patrick Byrne, the guy from Overstock. This is one point in the meeting, you write that you heard Trump scream, I don't care what you do, just get it fucking done. And it was after that six hour meeting that Trump tweeted out big protests in DC on January 6, be there, be wild, everything happened. Okay, let's go up to January 6, because your account is really extraordinary. And again, you were there watching as the chaos unfolded. So talk to me about that. When you realized that things were dangerous, when they were really running off the rails.

Partially, it's difficult to pinpoint one moment. In the days leading up to January 6th, in early January, I began to become afraid of what could happen on the 6th. And my mom actually had been reaching out to me a lot too. She didn't want me to go to work and I wasn't fully processing all of it. The morning of January 6th, I remember driving to work that day and it just felt bleak and dark. And I had this, I had this sense that like something bad was going to happen. So as you know, as the day progresses, and we progressively see things getting worse, you know, I felt that something very bad was going to happen. I think the first moment where that really hit me was when we learned that the rioters had actually breached

into the Capitol. I mean, you knew how vulnerable the congressman would be, journalists might be. These rioters did not know who the people were. They were chanting, hang Mike Pence. It was a dangerous situation. Yeah, precisely. And it wasn't just a dangerous situation because they had gotten into the Capitol. It's exactly what you said. The president had sent them there using his violent rhetoric. He had drawn this crowd to Washington, D.C. They had overrun Capitol Police and they had bludgeoned their way into the Capitol. And in that moment, I'm thinking about, like you said, the journalists, the members of Congress, the staffers, both career and political, that I know that work in that building and they're there for hopefully the right reasons. But it was also just an egregious assault on our democracy by the man who was sitting

just steps down the hall for me, who wasn't doing anything to stop this. Well, let's talk about that because your testimony had some just dazzling moments where, you know, for example, when Trump was upset that the rally space wasn't full enough and he said, you know, take the fucking mags away. They're not going to hurt me and take away the magnetometers that we're screening for knives and guns. And then, of course, there was the most jaw dropping part of your testimony. Can I just play this one little clip because it really captures how close to being completely out of control that day was. Let's play that. The president said something to the effect of, I'm the effing president.

Take me up to the Capitol now. To which Bobby responded, sir, we have to go back to the West Wing. The president reached up towards the front of the vehicle to grab at the steering wheel mr. Engel grabbed his arm said sir you need to take your hand off the steering wheel we're going back to the West Wing we're not going to the Capitol mr. Trump then used his free hand to lunge towards Bobby Engel and mr. when mr. Renato had recounted this story to me, he had motioned towards his clavicles. Of course, you know, there was a lot of attempt to discredit that testimony.

They tried to focus on all of that. But you were relying on people you had worked with who told you what you thought was the true story. Exactly. And I, you know, I never testified that I was there or knew it firsthand. I simply recounted what had been recounted to me. There are people that were in the vehicle with him that day that could truthfully answer those questions. I think that what is important about that exchange too is really two things. One, specifically related to January 6th, it's the fact that Donald Trump wanted to go to the Capitol. For what reason, I don't know. I could speculate. I don't know for

certain. If he had gone to the Capitol that day, I would really think that things would have gotten a lot more out of hand. And he had been warned in the days prior to January 6th that he could not go to the Capitol. We did not have the security assets to do so with the crowd size that we were expecting. And the second thing that I think is important from that specific exchange, whether people testify and completely corroborate it under oath or they have their own stories, there is a lot of corroboration that he was very angry in the presidential vehicle that day that he had wanted to go to the Capitol. And there are a lot of scenes like that that have emerged from the Trump administration

that speak to Donald Trump's character and his character and lack thereof. And he is a volatile, dangerous man who is willing to go to extreme lengths to achieve his end where he sees fit for himself. And I think the question that we have to ask ourselves in this next year in which you have done a phenomenal job and everybody at the board because I'm a phenomenal job at doing and where I could see me hopefully being a positive contribution to this is I have been on the inside I've seen the dangers that he is capable of posing firsthand I know the dangers that he continues to want to pose to the American people and we really need

to come together to educate people not only about about his policies, but about his character too, and the dangers of his character. I think that's the heart of the whole thing. But as you watch so many other Republicans who were there on January 6th, who understood that he was responsible for what happened on January 6th, as you watch them one by one, find a way to rationalize it, to look the other way. Just give me your thoughts about all of this, that you now have an election denier who is the speaker. You work with people like Kevin McCarthy in the past who clearly understood, as you did, the role that Donald Trump played on January 6th, and yet are okay with it. Your book basically is a warning about, look, this is who this guy was. This is what another term would mean. And yet, one after another, we are watching Republicans get in line behind him.

I mean, you know these people. Because one thing, you were very consistent. I may have taken you a while to break and decide to testify, but you were very outspoken in the White House in the days after January 6th that Donald Trump was responsible for this. Almost every Republican seemed to understand that on January 7th, and yet here we are. Right. The Republican Party right now is completely devoid of actual leadership, and it's disappointing to see, but it's a symptom of this Trumpism that has taken over our country. And I know I'm not telling you anything you don't know here, but in my opinion, most of the Republican conference, the vast majority of the Republican conference has taken the route of appeasing Donald Trump and not, you know,

they're the people that have the power potentially, or at least could be powerful voices in this atmosphere about how he is so dangerous, not only for the party, but for the country. And I think that's what kind of blows my mind the most out of all of this is even if you are a hard right Republican, you still care about the country. And Donald Trump is not the best person for this country by any means. I mean, he is, frankly, just completely undemocratic. But I don't want to go as far to say that they don't have time to course correct. They do. I am a firm believer that everybody can. It takes a lot of work and it doesn't happen overnight. But I think moving

forward, it's not only that we have to focus on making sure that Donald Trump's name is either not on the Republican ticket next summer or on the general election ticket next November, but making sure that we're actually talking to constituents of people that live in Republican leaning districts or swing districts. Because change starts with a foundation, and we need a strong foundation of people who actually care about the survival of our democracy and about our country. And right now, we don't have that within the Republican Party. And we can't rely on the people that have been elected to serve in the House and some in the Senate, the Republicans that have been at least, to preserve our democracy.

It's up to the people, and the people need to remember their power. And that's why your testimony and others, you know, should be so important, because you're not a liberal Democrat. You are not a rhino. You were not even a never-Trumper originally. And I'm sure you've given a lot of thought to this. The extraordinary thing about the Trump presidency are the number of voices from inside the room, people who work with him, whether it's the Attorney General or the Secretary of State or the Secretary of Defense or his National Security Advisor or his own Chief of Staff, all of whom are warning about the dangers of a second Trump term.

You were there in the room. You watched him. You are saying the American people, you know, there's something fundamental at stake here. And yet, so far, it hasn't seemed to move, I'm sorry to use the phrase, move the needle among Republican voters. And again, it's one thing for Democrats, or people who have been Andy Trump all along, it's one thing for Jamie Raskin, you know, to rail about Donald Trump or Nancy Pelosi. But you folks were in the Trump administration. You were in the Trump White House. And your testimony is very graphic. It's very powerful. Why isn't it affecting the Republican primary race?

Because I don't think my testimony alone is enough to change the outcome or change at least the people who have been in power. But you're not alone. No, I'm not. But I say all that because my voice isn't enough to change everything. My voice is an important step to creating that change. And I say all of that because, you know, I guess the way that I'm trying to approach this chapter of my life is there are a lot of people with a lot of credibility who have spoken out against

Donald Trump. Like you mentioned, several of the former actual senior staffers from the administration from different eras of the Trump administration. But telling people and explaining it to people are two different things. And telling people and actually engaging in a productive national conversation are two different things. And I think I'm not speaking foully about how anybody else has approached this. I'm trying to learn how to approach this differently for myself because I have seen and witnessed the way that we have communicated with people hasn't worked. It didn't work in 2016. He was elected. It did work sort of in 2020, but by the skin of our teeth, he lost. And I think in this next year, we need to figure out how to engage people in an actual productive conversation because we need to create an inclusive environment and one where people aren't just being talked at. They need to feel that they can have a conversation with people like us, whether it's a literal conversation or we're communicating these dangers to them in a way where they actually

understand it. So what is your life like now? You had known pretty much everybody in the Republican conference. You knew everybody in the White House. Do you have communications with them? Have they reached out to you? Have you reached out to them? What do they think about what's happening now? What you have done? Very few people from the Trump administration, several members of Congress in both parties, I still communicate with and some new, which is very nice to have new faces to, you know, I'd be doing a disservice to your listeners and to myself and to you, if I said this chapter in this part of my life has been easy. It has not been. I wouldn't expect it to be. And I think there's more reward to be reaped from that. Because if it was easy, I think that we would have a lot better of a chance at solving this problem if all this is

going to be easy. Some days are still difficult because I, again, I recognize that I was complicit, but I also recognize the power of this moment. And if I could change one person's mind or open one person's mind in this next year, I've never asked for people to believe me. And I say that lightly because I want people to listen. And I think so often we communicate with people in a way where it's almost we're talking at them back, actually, and we just expect them to believe us. I feel like creating a conversation for me where people are willing to listen, I think that will help lead to positive change. So sort of trying to figure out

how to do that is tricky, but it's rewarding being in this position and having the perspective that I have. And it's important for nothing else just to move forward as a country and know that there are to have my values sort of restored. And there is a bright future to be had. We just need to engage the right people. What would a second Trump presidency be like? You're asking me to catastrophize. Well, okay. But I mean, the Trump 2.0 would be fundamentally worse than Trump 1.0 because he wouldn't have the grownups in the room surrounding him. He wouldn't have the people who would tell him what he cannot do. He has figured out perhaps how to use the levers of power. So just briefly talk to me about what you're trying to warn against.

What is at stake in 2024? At this juncture, I look beyond the partisan politics of this moment. You know, we could sit here and debate what policies he would enact in his first day. I think it's important to point out, honestly, on that, though, is this whole thing with the Schedule F, where he would essentially, allegedly, I guess I should say, has an executive order ready to sign to be able to fire civil servants in the federal government, which was also a big push at the end of his first term in office. Incredibly dangerous. Playing into the larger point of if Donald Trump is the nominee on the ticket next year, we are not voting for a Republican platform or a Democratic platform. We are voting for the survival of our nation. And I will do whatever it takes to make sure that Donald Trump is nowhere near the Oval Office again, because again, we are not voting for a Republican platform. People would be voting for a fundamentally undemocratic and dangerous man who has shown

us time and time again that he does not have any regard for the Constitution and would go in with the mindset of a revenge presidency and surround himself by people who enabled him to achieve those ends. Okay, so one last question. Let's play the catastrophizing scenario, and there is a second Trump term, and there's a 24-year-old young woman from Indiana who is thinking about going to work in the White House because she thinks that it's an honor and that she can make a difference. What would you recommend to her? If you were sitting down with that young woman who you would understand completely, what would you advise her to do about going to work

in the second Trump White House? That's a hard question. I intended it to be. I would never want to discourage people from going into public service. And I think I'd be doing a disservice to people if I did that. You wouldn't say, run away, run away. You're not going to be able to make a difference. You are not going to be the grownup in the room. But I don't like to have that mindset because even if I don't, you know, testimony aside, there are more ways that we can create a difference than just by being there. She wouldn't have to witness something so egregious like an assault on our democracy and on our capital to recognize how fragile our democracy is. And I would hope to God that that wouldn't be the case for her. I hope that she would have a great experience, but I don't think that would be the case. I wouldn't encourage her to do it.

I would give her all the information that I knew and give her my story and help her make an educated guess on her own. But I think what would be important to relay to her is keep your eyes open and your guard up and know that if push comes to shove, your voice is enough to come forward and not to feel ostracized in a tight little corner.

And I think for me, at least being in that environment and working to break out of Trump world for almost a year and then being brought back into Trump world, it's a really difficult place to leave and you don't feel welcomed, or at least I feared not being welcomed once I was on the other side by Republicans or by Democrats. And having the validation from Liz Cheney and from Alyssa

Farah that not only was my voice enough, but that I would be welcomed by people and I would have to answer hard questions, but I should be expected to. And I was complicit in this and it's something that I owe the country as a duty to my nation. Well, I was remembering, I was thinking about when you were talking about that moment of moral clarity where you felt that you kind of betrayed your own values, that you were remembering why you went into public service in the first place. And I think that would be good advice to say just whatever you do, just remember why you want to serve your country, why you are a patriot, what you actually believe in. Right. Because as you saw, it's easy to get caught up in the fight. It's easy to get caught up in the glamour of it and the power and just doing your job. And I think that that's

one thing that it's, I think it's human nature sometimes that you in fact are dazzled for a while and you kind of forget why you were there. And I'm looking at all the congressmen and all the senators and all these important people and everything making the compromises. And I do wonder whether or not at some point they do look in the mirror and go, remember what I thought I was going to do when I came to Congress? Remember what I thought I was going to do when I did all of this? And what have I actually become? And it's not a comfortable conversation. Cassidy, thank you so much for writing the book because I think it was important.

It answered a lot of questions. And I think it's a difficult thing to write about, because you do acknowledge your regrets, and you do acknowledge your complicity. And I think a lot of us have gone through this process of saying, why didn't I see that earlier? Why did I make that compromise? What was I thinking when I did this? What took me so long? So you're not alone in that respect at all. So Cassidy Hutchinson, again, the book is enough. New York Times bestseller. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. Thank you for having me. And thank you all for listening to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm Charlie Sykes. We'll be back tomorrow. We'll do this all over again. The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper

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