The Bulwark Podcast - Dean Phillips and Mikie Sherrill: The Right Call

Episode Date: August 15, 2024

Two Democratic members of Congress who called on Biden to pass the torch join Tim Miller today. Both Rep. Dean Phillips and Rep. Mikie Sherrill said it was voters who told them they wanted the party to turn the page.  Plus, more Tim Walz insights, and Vance's odd obsession with how females use their bodies throughout their lives.

Hey guys, we got a double header today that I just taped with Dean Phillips and Mikey Sherrill. And some of you might be mad at Dean Phillips, but I implore you to give it a listen. So thoughtful. That was one of the best conversations I've had in a while. So stick around for Dean and Mikey. If you want a little more cotton candy, Sarah Longwell's on vacation. So I'm sitting in on George Conway explains it all to Sarah Longwell.

You can listen to that podcast on whatever podcast feed you choose, or you can check us out on YouTube. So go on over there. It'll be George Conway explains it all to Tim Miller today. That'll be up later today. Up next, Dean Phillips. Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller, bringing back to the show conquering hero, Democratic Congressman from Minnesota, Dean Phillips. He was an entrepreneur.

He helped to build the Talenti Gelato into one of the top selling ice cream brands in the country. And he made some pretty good points about the 2024 election that you may or may not remember. How are you doing, Congressman? I'm doing great, Tim. Thank you. Doing a lot better than I was doing when we last spoke. Yeah, well, I don't know. I think you were doing fine. It was maybe me that wasn't doing well. I love being wrong. I know people don't believe this about me because of my, you know, brash attitude, but I love being wrong. I love saying I'm wrong. I just don't like it when I'm right and you tell me I'm wrong, you know? That's the problem. But in this case, I'm wrong. I just don't like it when I'm right and you tell me I'm wrong. That's the

problem. But in this case, I was wrong. And to prove it, I want to listen to Dean Phillips, August 13th, 2023, one year ago, 367 days ago, before you announced you were running, when you're kind of soft floating that something needed to happen here. Here you are with Chuck Todd on Meet the Press. What I'm technically and legitimately doing is representing. I'm a representative and I'm representing what I believe to be the majority of the country that wants to turn the page. Tired of the meanness and the fear mongering of Donald Trump. I would like to see Joe Biden, a wonderful and remarkable man, pass the torch, cement this extraordinary legacy. You don't want him to run for reelection.

I believe what's in the best interest of the country. And by the way, this is not how everybody thinks, but I do believe a majority wants to move on. I hear from way too many people. Now, this is, the news was that I was meeting with donors. The fact is I listen to normal Americans every day and my own feeling. This is all about age. This is no, no, this is about how people feel. By the way, it's not about what's real all the time. It's about how people feel. People want to turn the page. I think that's fair to say. As a Democrat, I adore Joe Biden. He saved this country.

He can cement his legacy. My real call to action right now is not about me. The call to action is to ask the president to pass the torch. What can President Biden do to reassure you he is up to a second term? I'm not saying he's not up to a second term. What I'm saying is look at the data. I listen. My job is to listen. I do it every single day, back in Minnesota, all around the country.

Wait, can he change the data? It's not too late. What you're talking about is basically the history of our lifetimes, okay? You go back, the last four sitting presidents who had serious primary challenges, that party lost the White House. We can go back to LBJ, but also Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, George H.W. Bush. But why were they primaried? Because people recognized they were weakened. The country was ready to turn the page. Well, how do you grade

yourself on that, Congressman? I'd say B plus. B plus? what'd you get wrong? I have not heard that, by the way, for a long time, Tim. And it's even interesting for me to hear those because I've been consistent since the very beginning. And, you know, if I got anything wrong, I believe I didn't work hard enough and perhaps aggressively enough with those in the positions of power that had the levers available to pull to do something sooner. And if I have any regret, it's not about what I did, it's what I didn't do. And that is to perhaps inspire Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer, Hakeem Jeffries and others that ultimately were the brokers, if you will, to do something sooner. That's probably my only regret. Only regret. Yeah, who really thinks you're right. You know, when I was listening to that audio a

couple times the last 24 hours, I was like, you know who really should have listened to Dean Phillips? It wasn't me. It was Gavin. You've got to believe Gavin's sitting out there in Sacramento right now going, man, I really, this guy, this guy had some points. Yeah. You know, Tim, I saw the governor in South Carolina when I was campaigning. And we appeared at the same event. And he did his shtick. Then I did mine. I gave him a hug afterwards.

And I whispered in his ear, you should have fucking run. And at that moment, a photographer snapped a picture. I have it on my... It's one of those moments where only he and I knew what I had just said. But he smiled in a way that said a lot. It's turned out great, actually, not by anybody's strategic doing, but by dumb fucking luck. The fates. You know what, Tim? Hey, having good luck is much better than having good strategy.

That's true. I want to go forward, but just a little bit more going back to that time. I'm curious, any institution, as a culture, it is good to listen to people that are challenging you in good faith internally, right? It's good to listen to question your presumptions. It's good to let whistleblowers speak, like all of this. Like that is all a sign of health, and it's positive. And I think the most distressing thing about all this was that that was not really what happened initially on the Democratic side. There's a lot of wagon circling. And I'm just curious, like, what was the hardest part for you about that process? Like, how bad did it get? How ostracized were you? Are you still disillusioned a little bit

by some of your colleagues behavior? Well, let me start with the positive, which is I'm overjoyed and frankly amazed that that mission that was such a lonely one for so long has been realized. And it was never about accolades and roses being thrown at me. It was about doing the right thing. And I feel I did the right thing. So I don't have resentment. I don't have anger.

Many have asked me to go on a I told you so tour. And that's just so antithetical to what this was all about. You're a better man than I on that front. I would literally have an I told you so tattoo right now. I would just be, I'd have that mission accomplished banner from W. I would have done a speech on a boat. Look how that turned out for him. You know, and look, and that's the MO in Washington.

And, you know, I wanted to do this differently, and I'm just, I'll wrap that in a bow. I'm just overjoyed that it finally happened. Should it have happened sooner? Yes. Most sad, I have to say, is had Joe Biden debated me and perhaps others in the primary and campaigned a little bit, I think the country would have seen those elements that ultimately led to him standing down. And the fact that he actually appeared at that June 27th debate, that I believe, unfortunately and sadly, history will look upon as the end of his career, he could have saved his own legacy. And I really hold those around him more accountable than anybody. So if I have any disappointment, to be honest with you, Tim, I'm really disappointed in those who had the power, the ability, the influence and the trust of the president to do what's right, not just for the country, but frankly, as a human being for him. So if I have any disdain, it is for those who could have done that. As for my colleagues, look, you know, Tim, you and I know we both know this game and we know that it's a culture that focuses on self-preservation.

It means you have to modify sometimes your values and principles if you wish to continue to be reelected. And that is, I think, the root of so many problems in Washington. So I knew what I was getting into. I didn't ask anybody for support because I knew they couldn't give it to me. And I don't have disappointment in the people. I have disappointment in the culture and in leadership. And that's why I'm hopeful that we can change that and reward, to your point earlier about whistleblowers or those positions of dissent. We need to create a culture where you can do that respectfully and that people are willing to listen. The whole point of primaries, if we wanted to just coronate candidates based on who

a party wants, we didn't need primaries. We didn't have them for many years. The whole point of a primary is to entertain ideas, entertain new candidates, to afford American voters at least an opportunity to get to know someone different. And when a party suppresses that, I think that is a threat to democracy. And look, I love my Democratic Party. I do believe our heads and hearts are in the right place. But I really think that we have to do some self-reflecting on what happened. And by the way, not just to me, to Marianne Williamson, to other candidates whose names probably most listeners won't ever know. I do believe we should work harder to promote competition, promote disparate voices. And by the way, I think Democrats will do better electorally if we do.

I think we've unfortunately developed a brand that cancels and that disenfranchises and that suppresses. And I think the best way to overcome mean speech-plus for, the thing that you're the most right about, was talking about this was what regular people wanted, right? And there was this very cynical argument that was being made in Washington, that it was only elites that wanted Joe Biden to step aside, when it was the opposite was true. It was the elites that were protecting him. It was the most political obsessives, probably political podcast listeners so no offense to anybody listening to this right but it's like people that were the most you know kind of focused on the winning a game element of this right like that who are the most into politics is sports that i think we're a little bit blinded you know and it was like the

people that were furthest away this whole time that were seeing things more clearly, right? And a lot of those were Democratic voters, you know, just not the types of Democratic voters that are like maybe the most vocal on social media or whatever. I think you hit the nail on the head. And in fact, there's a, I think it's an analogy to Trumpism, which is when regular everyday Americans, which is most Americans, feel that they're unheard or that their perspectives are not being considered or they have no recourse. It's just the fundamental human nature that you become angry. It's true in a personal relationship. It's true in a professional environment. It's certainly true in politics. And Democrats used to be the party of the people,

represented rural Americans, small town, working people. And we had our ears to the ground. Polling and data, which is foundational in Washington, D.C., those are numbers. You got to get into coffee shops and go to church and encounter people on the street to really understand what's going on. And I think if more people would do that, Tim, you'd find a couple of things. People are not being heard. The Washington bubble is far more fierce and impenetrable than people even imagine. And the other, this is the good and optimistic part, is the country is not nearly as divided as human beings, as anger-tainment would have us believe. So there's a real truth to that. And I'm saddened that Democrats have abandoned a lot of this country. If you look at it geographically, when I say abandoned, just electorally, it's been pragmatism. But that was part of my call to action, too, is to start listening, not reading numbers, to listen to people, for gosh sakes. That's what representative democracy is all about. Republicans, at least Trump, has done that better. I'm just going to have to give him a check mark in that box because he has been listening to people and he's giving that life. He's not the disease. He's a symptom of a disease. And the disease, I think, is a lack of listening, plain and simple.

And that's what I was hearing. And it was obvious. I come from a district, Tim, as you know, that had not elected a Democrat since 1958. And I would have thought that maybe people would have paid a little bit of attention to a district like mine that is well educated, prosperous, had been read for 60 years, and had something to say. And people were telling me loud and clear. And if you don't listen, you can't lead. There's one element in there that was the one area where I don't give you an A from the whole process, which is I do think that the Democratic voters, at least, were potentially looking for somebody that they thought could take on Trump more strongly. And look, I'm happy to

give people that disagree with me credit when they get something right. Is Trump listening, or is he a megalomaniac that just wants the best applause? Is that a category difference from actually listening? I don't think that he's listening to dissenting views. I don't think that he's listening to marginalized groups. I don't think he's listening to, you know, the trans people that are upset with his rhetoric, right? Like, there's a certain group of people that cheers when he tells them what they like to hear. It's a little bit different. First of all, two things can be true at once. Yes, he's an egomaniacal disaster. And no, he does not listen to dissent. But he I do believe,

Tim, I think it goes without saying he tapped into something that few recognized in the very beginning. And that's why all of us dismissed him when he walked down that staircase in whatever it was 2014 2015. Because we thought he was a fool. But I do believe when it comes to bread and butter kitchen table economics, when it comes to, you know, the border issue, when it comes to bread and butter kitchen table economics, when it comes to, you know, the border issue, when it comes to disenchantment with the political system, even his opening slogan, which was drain the swamp, there are very few more unifying slogans, I think, for most Americans than that one, because we all know that there is a real disconnect between Washington and everyday Americans. So the only credit I wish to give him is that he identified, I think, an undercurrent of disdain and tapped into it and then embellished it and has,

frankly, destroyed, I think, the blessing of what he was doing. So you're absolutely right. That was not my point. My point is Democrats have to start walking the talk and this whole elite, it is becoming, it has become, I think, a party that has elevated too many, first of all, elite's a weird word, but elitism to me is simply people who are operating in a bubble who think they know better than others. And when it comes to electoral politics, the whole point is it's not about elites, it's about popularity. And there's a massive disconnect. It's just as simple as that. We got so much going for us and we shouldn't, it should never have been a close race to begin with.

That's my whole point. And listening, representation begins with listening, plain and simple. I want to talk about how Democrats can do better at this going forward. But just one more thing, if you'll indulge me, I'm not a huge fan of Thomas Sowell, but he does have one quote that's a winner, which is the people forgive you for being wrong, but they'll never forgive you for being right. So I am curious. I want to go back to the cafeteria one more time just because I'm gay. I'm an inveterate gossip.

I like a little gossip. So I just, how was the cafeteria? Have you been back? Like, you know, how's everybody? They're nice to you? They whisper in behind your back? Are you getting some begrudging congrats? It was a journey. I was told right before I threw my hat in the ring, someone reminded me of the old saying,

Dean, first they're going to ignore, and then they're going to laugh, and then they're going to excoriate you, and then they're all going to say, we knew it all along. And I got to tell you, it was exactly how it played out. And when I came back to Washington after five months on the road campaigning, I will confess, I don't get too nervous or concerned or fearful of social situations, but I'll confess, it was a strange feeling coming back to my community, to the Democratic caucus. And I remember walking in the chamber for the first time when I was back, I happened to come through the Republican side going over to my side. And I was greeted by a lot of hugs and handshakes and

high fives. And a reporter tweeted immediately from the gallery said, Dean Phillips returns to the chamber after five months, greeted with handshakes, high fives and hugs, period. And then it said from Republicans. I remember this tweet. I don't remember who sent it, but I remember seeing it. And there's no question, Tim, that I was greeted with a lot more fanfare and affection by Republicans at that moment than I was by my own. And I understood why, because they knew what would happen to any one of them if they even whispered something negative about Donald Trump. So they saw me as someone who had done something courageous. You know, my community on the other side of the aisle was still very disappointed. They thought I'd undermined Biden. They thought, if anything, that I was a problem, not prescient. And my dear

friends were cool. And I think, you know, people were friendly, but it was hard. It was hard. And it hasn't been the same since, because I think it was fair to say I was relatively popular, elected to House leadership and the like. But in the last month, it has all changed. And a lot of people have come up to me proactively and very thoughtfully to share their kind words. The only people that haven't, the only people that haven't are the handful that I really think should. And those are the ones that said publicly disparaging things, which is only a handful of people. But Tim, it wasn't about about it wasn't about accolades. I knew my career would probably end. Well, if you just if you just want to send me a little black book, we can do it off the record, a private list of who was nice to you the whole time and then who was and who was mean. I'll keep it as a as a note for the future. I'll think of you this holiday season. Thank you. I like that. Yeah, the naughty and nice list. You mentioned how Democrats have struggled reaching out to rural America in

particular. You have a Minnesota colleague now that's on the ticket with Kamala Harris, Tim Walsh. A lot of Democrats are saying that he is somebody that's suited to that. He comes from a farm community in Nebraska, was a coach in Mankato, which is rural-ish, and represented a rural district. So what are your thoughts about Tim Walz, the person, and then thoughts on whether he can maybe help bridge some of those problems you've identified? I think Kamala Harris's choice of Tim Walz is outstanding. I love Tim Walz. I think he is exactly, he's the kind of guy that Tim Ryan has been begging Democrats to elevate, I think, for a long, long time. And I'm thrilled. And I really do believe that America is starting to see what we Democrats can be and who we are and what our life experiences can bring to the table.

He's outstanding. Between being born in Nebraska, a teacher, a football coach, a National Guardsman, a relatively moderate representing a red district in Congress, and now, of course, a governor who has certainly moved left in his tenure here in Minnesota, but really did what Democrats, I believe, stand for, which is to raise the foundation to invest in communities and people and education and social safety nets and paid family leave and the environment has maintained women's reproductive rights against some odds. He's really an outstanding man. And I'm thrilled. And I do believe he's exactly the kind of Democrat that we should be elevating and almost

antithetical to this elitism that is assigned to both the West and East Coast that I think has really undermined us for some time. And I think I think in no small part, it's not just Kamala Harris's rise in the last few weeks that is really troubling Donald Trump. I think he sees in Tim Walz and this combination, even a bigger threat, because I think they're in a way doing that listening and doing that rapprochement, if you will, with rural Americans better than he is. And I think Tim Walz has a lot to do with it. And as Americans get to know him, I think they're going to like him even more. I'm encouraged to hear that because the Tim Walz thing has not sent the thrill up my leg that it

has with a lot of folks. I think he seems like a really good person. And I love that he's contributed to his community. The thing that worries me a little bit is his time as governor. He was just a downline progressive. We had Peter Callahan, I'm sure he's covered you in the past from Minnesota, MinnPost on the podcast last week. And I asked him, was there any time when he was governor that he said no to the progressive activists or said no to the left? And the answer was like, basically, no, there was a couple small, like certain situational caveats to it. And so I do worry about that. Can somebody that is down the line progressive effectively reach out to red America in the way that I think a lot of

Democrats, including you, hope that he can? The best way I can answer this question is to reflect on, again, this political culture that almost requires, in this day and age, a governor, a member of Congress, a senator, to really abide by the company line, by the party line, if you will, if you wish to continue your career and ascend the ladder. And that is the culture. And people do have to make choices. There's an inverse correlation. The more independent-minded you are, the more willing you are to push back on occasion, the less likely you are to be celebrated by the party and ascend the ranks and find higher office. So that's the reality. And I think that's why we see so many electeds around the country change, modify their behaviors and their policies based on pragmatism. You're going to see the same thing, I think, from Kamala Harris right now. The Times begged for a different approach. In 2020, she had to move away from her

prosecutorial background, from her more moderate credentials. Now she's going to run back to them. I think she and Tim Walz are actually, at heart, much more moderate and pragmatic in common sense than perhaps their recent voting records and policies would have people believe. I think there's truth to that. There have been examples where Tim Walz pushed back. There was an episode recently with Uber and Lyft. This was one that Peter mentioned, yeah. Yeah, ride share services where I spoke with the governor. It was going to be a tragic decision by the Minneapolis City Council if this policy went through, which would have literally, Uber was going to leave the Twin Cities market and hundreds of people that rely on Uber every day to get to work. And so many people would

have been stranded. And the governor did push back at great political risk here in Minnesota on that policy. He has done that on a few occasions. I think that's the most probably high profile, but I hear what you're saying. And that is true on both sides of the aisle. It's true on ours. But at the end of the day, I do think at heart, he understands pragmatism. He understands he's not just representing Minnesota now, which is still blue. He's going to be representing an entire country. And that means he's, I think, going to be much more authentic about his more moderate centrist credentials. Time will tell. But again, we do not live in an era, Tim, where the political parties afford a lot of space

for occasional pushback. Perfect example right here in front of you. So there you have it. Have you talked to him since he got the nod? He's probably been a little bit busy, but yes, we've corresponded and we've kind of come up here in Minnesota together. I hired a number of his staff members, his chief of staff, his deputy chief, his legislative director. And no one's asked me this question, but I can speak to the kind of people with whom Tim Walz surrounds himself. My former campaign manager is one of his top political directors now too. He really does select outstanding, high character, principled people around him of integrity and decency and competency. They're not flashy. They're not necessarily Ivy leaguers. They're really good,

solid people that I found to be exceptional for me as well. He's that kind of guy. He's trustworthy. He's reliable. He's taken some heat about a couple of things that I really think are absurd, but that's how politics work. You mean his military record and the bathroom thing? Yeah. So military record. I mean, goodness, the guy served for 24 years in the National Guard. You know, I mean, who is anyone to throw stones at that, for gosh sakes? And he did not abandon his guys knowing he's going to be deployed. He ran for office and, you know, circumstances worked out in a fashion that only political hit jobs would take advantage of. That's just the truth. And I think it's really shameful for those who would use that against him. And not to mention against a guy who avoided the draft four times

or five times in Vietnam, saying that his feet were freaking flat. So come on. You know, I love hearing that about his staff. Have one of them email me. This is helping. I'm getting walls pilled. It's, you know, it's just it's going a little slower for me. I'd love to hear more from the people that know him better. I'd welcome that opportunity. And I, and I should say, and I'm not going to be, I'll be totally honest. You know, Tim did say a couple of things about me publicly when I declared my candidacy that bothered me and I let him know it. And, uh, you know, we, we did what you're supposed to do. We discussed it and resolved it and moved on. So it's not like we've always, we've had a perfect relationship. I've been disappointed on a couple of things, but I'm telling you, I think he's going to add value in

ways that rarely vice presidents in campaigns do, particularly because of his adversary being J.D. Vance. I think he's really well suited to demonstrate real chops. That's a compelling endorsement. Oh, I know that we're here. We're supposed to be, you know, doing the, not just throwing stones at how terrible the other party is, but the Republicans are just like, there's too many targets here. And I would be remiss if I did not ask you about the Republican nominee for Senate in your state of Minnesota. I just want to play a very short montage of Royce White. This man is the Republican nominee for Senate in Minnesota. Well, look, let's just be frank. Women have become too mouthy. As the black man in the room, I'll say that. The first time I started my campaign at the Federal Reserve, they said that I was

a dead hog and that I was dog whistling anti-Semitism because I was at a place where a lot of Jewish elites actually were in the Fed. Bern and you know there's a long list of them. But everybody wants to be LGBTQ positive because it's in because it's funny because because the white folks will give you money the white folks will accept you now if you're LGBTQ positive. But let me ask you this is there anything positive about about a school a group of liberal white women taking a bunch of kids to a gay nightclub in Duluth, Minnesota, and having a drag queen stripper show? What's happening? How is that the nominee for Senate? My reaction, of course, it's despicable, shameful, moronic, but it's also more than anything else. It's just sad. It's really sad. It's sad for him. It's particularly sad for the Republican Party. I can't imagine what it must feel like, you know,

probably better than I, what it must feel like for a principled conservative to see some of the candidates that are being elevated right now. It is, it's staggering. It's sad. It's embarrassing for a state in which I've made my home my whole life and which I love that has actually a very proud tradition of moderate conservatism. People like Dave Dernberger and Arne Carlson, former governor. Yeah, I love Arne Carlson. That's right in my alley. A man who helped me considerably in my first. He and Walter Mondale tag teamed to really help me in 2018. I just think they would be turning.

Arnie is, of course, alive. Dave Durenberger passed away. They'd be turning in their graves. Ronald Reagan. I mean, I don't know how to respond to such absurd, sickening, grotesque commentary. And it's pathetic. Amy Klobuchar is going to demonstrate how most Minnesotans are in their hearts and heads. And I think I'm just going to leave it at that. And not to mention, you know, this is a guy who spends campaign dollars in strip clubs,

for gosh sakes. And it's sad. We've spent a lot of the time talking about how maybe Democrats could have been more open to your critique as an understatement. But I do notice you're still there, you know, and that's the other thing that's frustrating as a principled somebody from the center right is like even get those Cheney treatment. Right. I mean, like these people have been run out on a rail, Adam Kinzinger, and they're being replaced with fuck sticks like that guy. And it's just pretty depressing. First of all, I would have done this if I had been a Republican in the same circumstance, knowing I would be excommunicated in a really nasty way. I still would have done it. But I do. I think it's worth pointing out that that is not how the Democratic Party and caucus operates. And we do

create space and place for dissent. Our progressive wing, our moderate wing are pretty regularly in some degree of debate and conversation with differences of opinion, and there's space and place for it. Hakeem Jeffries is an outstanding leader. And I was at his table as a leader. He knew what I was up to. I kept him apprised. He did not support it, but he made place for it. And when I first offered to leave the leadership team, because I was starting to raise my voice, he actually asked me to stick around. I didn't accept my resignation. And only when I came back to him many weeks later and basically said it wasn't a conversation, it was an advisory, did he accept it. But that is a difference. And I think if I'd

ran again, I would have won handily is what I believe. So this is not the same party as the other side. And we're in a better place to actually start investing in a little bit more of that. Whereas the Republican Party is going to have to, I think, burn it down before they can even begin to. And I can tell you, I know a lot of Republican colleagues who, in their hearts, want Donald Trump to lose so that this sickening chapter in American political history can come to a close and they can rebuild the party, hopefully with principled conservatives leading the charge. One more thing on the economic class and then I want to hear what's next for you. I'm just hoping both parties are doing their economic rollouts this week. And there's some

good stuff in what Kamala is proposing. I like the child tax credit expansion. It seems like they're going to propose more housing, which is a bugaboo that I've had. But neither of them are taking it all serious. The just looming debt crisis we're facing with high interest rates, payments on debt service are skyrocketing. Are there any Dean Phillips out there to be the iconoclast on this issue? Because it's looking pretty bleak. Tim, I think it's our biggest deficiency right now. Neither Kamala Harris nor Tim Walz have any private sector experience.

I think the Democratic Party would be well served by starting to engage more deeply in fiscal responsibility and management. And debt services, both for consumers and for the federal government, is becoming a big problem. People should know that our debt service this year will probably exceed $850 billion. It's going to match our defense budget, and we're on a completely unsustainable path. And now we have consumers facing very similar challenges, especially those that took out three five-year arms to buy homes not long ago and are going to see interest rates just, their payments explode. The good news is I think the Fed will be cutting rates soon, but

I do believe Democrats should elevate this issue. And a policy that I promoted heavily, and I really hope that Vice President Harris and Governor Walz consider, is something called American Dream Accounts, in which the federal government would endow a $5,000 investment account for every baby born in America, be invested in a S&P 500 index fund, compound year after year after year. And then as an incentive to graduate high school, young Americans would have those accounts vest, and they'd have $20,000 to $25,000 to begin their lives. And this would be part of the social security program. Right now, we only take care of people at the end of their career. This would be help at the beginning of a career. And I think it's the kind of policy that would allow us to reduce social safety nets, afford young people some cash to begin their lives, start a small business, make a down payment on a house, and most importantly, truly afford all Americans equal opportunities. It would cost $18 billion a year, which is about what California spends just on incarceration every year. You know, it's a lot of money, but it's a drop in the bucket that could really change the future of this country, our entire policy culture, and really afford, I think, stimulate entrepreneurship, innovation.

And these are the kind of policies I wish Democrats would start focusing on. This notion actually had Republican roots. And I'd like to see them go big, not just on spending more and adding more to the existing policies, but to really reconsider, reinvent, and reimagine what it means to pursue the American dream and really think about the tragedy that could be forthcoming if we do not start managing our federal government operationally and fiscally quite differently. If Democrats adopted that plank, Tim, I really think it would be an unstoppable party. That is the one element that is really preventing a lot of independents and

moderate Republicans from making that jump, because they don't have faith that we are a pro-business party, that we are one that take fiscal responsibility seriously. And with the erosion of that consideration amongst Republicans, I think it's a grand opportunity. So that's my call to action for them. Obviously concur on that.'s preaching to the choir. All right, what's next for you, Congressman? What's happening? Yesterday, I worked at a fast food restaurant for a series called On the Job with Dean. The day before that, I was at the Mall of America, I joined the Nickelodeon dance team. You're living the best life, it sounds like to me. So I got to tell you, never, never did I know what I was really missing.

I'm going to, I'm giving thought to that right now, Tim. I want to make a difference. I'm going to invest my time in the public sector and increasing participation. We can't sustain democracy with only one in 10 Americans voting in primary elections. I want to work on gerrymandering. I want to expand rank choice voting and I want to inspire competition. So I'll be keeping a foot in public water somehow and reconnecting with friends and family in the next few months and hope to add value to a country that really deserves it and that has given me so much. And just in closing, I think I shared with you in my first visit with you that I lost my dad in Vietnam. And this job over the last six years has been a remarkable one.

And when every time I pull out my voting card, I think of my predecessors in that very chamber, taking votes on policies that would expand and afford education to young Americans that my father took advantage of because he had no money to go to college in the late 60s. So he did the ROTC program. He got educated. And the same people made votes that ultimately would take his life in Vietnam. And we need to start attracting the best and brightest, most competent Americans on the right and left, make public service an honorable, reasonably compensated pursuit that attracts thoughtful progressives and thoughtful conservatives. So I want to spend my time trying to do that with young people to inspire them to be police officers, firefighters, teachers,

run for city council, school board, and Congress. If we can inspire people to participate, we're going to be just fine. But absent that vitamin of democracy, which is participation, we're going to have problems. So I'm going to spend my time doing that any way I can. Well, in the midst of that, you're always welcome back here, Congressman Dean Phillips. I really appreciate it. You know, gave you a little bit too much of the business last time I came around. I came around too late for your sake, but earlier than some others. So kudos to you. But I want to thank you, Tim. You did what I was asking for, which is you afforded me platform. It wasn't about whether people agreed with me. It was about affording platform. And when the Democratic machine or the Republican

machine shuts down, suppresses platform for dissent, we are in trouble. So I want to say thank you to you and others with large followings and small that are simply giving space to those to make their case. You're doing the most important work in democracy. So thank you. I appreciate that so much. Let's stay in touch. That's Congressman Deed Phillips. Up next, Mikey Sherrill from New Jersey.

All right, and we are back with Congresswoman Mikey Sherrill. She's a Democrat from New Jersey. She's a member of the House Armed Services Committee, former U.S. Navy helicopter pilot, and former prosecutor in the U.S. Attorney's Office in New Jersey. How are you doing? I'm doing great, and it's great to be here. Welcome. First timer. I think you're a member of the unofficial Congressional Bulwark Caucus.

Bill Kristol floated you for VP, I think. Yeah, I don the unofficial congressional bulwark caucus. Bill Crystal floated you for VP. I think. Yeah, I don't know why that guy hates me. I don't know if you were you vetted. Did you get any vetting papers? I did not get vetting papers. Okay. Well, if they just listen to Bill Crystal more, maybe you would.

We just talked to Dean Phillips. I don't want to dwell too much on the past because we're not going back, but I just think it's worth revisiting very briefly. On July 9th, you called on the president to step aside. It was a key moment. It was when some, Jerry Nadler just backtracked, I believe, at the moment. So I'm just wondering what that decision was like, the social stigma, why you decided to do it. Yeah, I think in seeing the debate, so many of the concerns that people had been expressing to me that we'd been hearing about and been seeing in the polling, as you recall, before Biden's debate, we weren't in a really

strong place. And I was even hearing from some of our NATO allies, I don't think you guys are taking this presidential election as seriously as you need to be. We're seeing some excitement on the right that we're not sensing in the Democratic Party. And I think a lot of us felt, I felt, that when people really had a decision to make, when they were able to really sit down and think about the difference between what Trump represented and his presidency and his ideals and values versus what Biden had accomplished and his values and ideals, they would choose Biden. And I thought the debate would maybe be that inflection point when Biden could sort of lay out his views and we could hear from Trump. And I had spoken to people

beforehand about their concerns. And I said, no, we just, we're team normal. We just need to kind of express our values. And I think the American people will understand that that's the path forward. And after that debate, I think I realized like so many people that there wasn't then an inflection point. We weren't going to see that path forward. And we were seeing the energy building on the right in a really concerning way. Not only were we coming to the conclusion that unfortunately, the Biden campaign could not marshal the effort that was needed to prosecute the case against Trump and was not going to win that election. But then at the same time, we were seeing a

precipitous fall in polling in house races across the country, which, as you can imagine, is very important to me. So that was a really big moment. I think it takes time to process that. I knew at the end of the day that as someone who served this country for decades and cares deeply about this country and the values of America, I knew Biden would make the right choice. So it was a decision at first to step back and say, okay, let's allow the president to process this. But of course, by the next week, I think maybe that was giving the wrong impression that everyone, you know, that we didn't have another path forward, that there was no plan, no strategy to do that. And as we started to see that kind of shutting down discussion, shutting down of how we were going to actually defeat Trump, and I wasn't

hearing any plan to do that or any change in strategy, anything to me that spoke of our willingness to attack and address this campaign in a strategic way. I said to people, you know, I'm not willing to cede to Trump in July. So at that point, I decided it was time to come out publicly. And I think that, you know, Nancy Pelosi is so strategic. I think doing so opened up a little bit of space for her to say the next day, look, we need the president to make a decision and kind of opening up the conversation again. Being team normal is also being team responsible, you know, and I think that there was some irresponsibility about going blindly, you know, into potential

Trumpian autocracy just because you don't want to walk on eggshells. And another example of that was with your colleague from New Jersey, Bob Menendez, right? Like we've seen from the Republicans from Team Abnormal, a total unwillingness to ostracize or to push aside or to criticize people that act irresponsibly or act corrupt within their own caucus. And I think that, you know, over the summer, you know, both with the kind of this open conversation about Biden, and I think a pretty clear voice among Democrats that that what, you know, Senator Menendez did was unacceptable, I think was a sign of health. So I might have been a little tougher for you, but being from New Jersey, how did you how did you see the Menendez situation? I'm not just, you know, represented from New Jersey. I'm also someone who has served in the

military, has taken oaths to the Constitution, served around the Jersey. I'm also someone who has served in the military, has taken oaths to the Constitution, served around the world. And I can tell you what so offended me about Senator Menendez's conduct was that he blithely put people in danger overseas. As the chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee, giving information to Egypt about our embassy staff. Among many other things that crossed the line, that one, that one was so offensive to me that you could put people serving our country in danger overseas for your own personal benefit. And so I not only had called on Senator Menendez to resign after the indictment came out, but also have put forth a piece of legislation that people that have been indicted on certain crimes should not have any access to our nation's secrets,

to secret material. And I think that would include Trump as well, of course. So that was something that was important to me. No, it did not feel like, it felt like a very black and white type situation to come forward and call for him to step aside, to call for Menendez to do that as well. And I think you're exactly right. To me, you know, people would kind of throw some shade on the Democratic Party a little bit. Oh, Republicans are strong. Republicans support their candidate. Republicans, you know, are not divided. Republicans would never, I've heard some people say, this is awful. I've heard people saying Republicans would just support their candidate at all costs.

And I think, well, that's why we're not Republicans. That's ridiculous. When you're supporting your candidate at all costs, to me, that seems to indicate, and what we've seen is there has been no accountability for January 6th. No discussion in the Republican Party that their standard bearer has tried to stay in office despite a Democratic election. No discussion about that. That's jaw-dropping to me. Yes, being in a cult is not strong, actually. Being a cult member is a sign of weakness. No offense to any cult members out there listening. All right, that's in the past.

Now we're in the coconut grove. We don't need to dwell on all that too much. So I want to look forward and the campaign ahead of us. You've been out as a surrogate for the Harris walls ticket. Some new audio from JD Vance was circulating yesterday. Let's listen to that together. I'd like to hear what you have to say about it. And you can sort of see the effect it has on him to be around them like they spoil him sort of all the classic stuff that grandparents do to grandchildren but it makes him a much better human being to have exposure to his grandparents well i don't know and the evidence on this by the way is like super clear that's the whole purpose of the post-monopausal female in in theory did your in-laws and particularly your mother-in-law show up in some huge way she lived with us for a year right

so you know i didn't know the answer to that no so that's this weird unadvertised feature of marrying an indian woman it's yeah it's in some ways the most transgressive thing i've ever done against sort of the the the hyper neoliberal approach to work in family. What is happening there? You know, if I tried to sell to my mother, my mother-in-law, that the whole purpose of the postmenopausal woman was to care for my children, they would have my head. You know, and I mean, what the hell, right? Like, what is happening there? That is so bizarre. And I think what's so interesting about this is somebody told me, you know, I'm in northern New Jersey. We work with a lot of people on Wall Street and stuff.

And I said, I don't understand why when Trump goes out to Wildwood, New Jersey and starts talking about Hannibal Lecter and Silence of the Lambs and acting like it's a documentary, not some sort of work of fiction. Like, what the hell? And he said, well, Trump's craziness is sort of priced into the market, right? That's how they speak. Like, it's priced in. Like, people sort of accept it. They know it. And they're just moving on. I would suggest that J.D. Vance's abnormalities are not priced in and that he is now tipping the scales on that ticket and making people really assess, is this who we want in charge of our country? Do we not only want to have to deal with a Trump presidency, which is horrible in its own right but then adding on to that this new generation

of crazy people and jd vance and what he signifies and then you take it and what's what's been so wonderful for democrats is it's in such sharp contrast to the campaign that harrison waltz are running i mean here you have you know not not really just team normal. We'd accept team normal. That would probably do it for a lot of Americans. But actually, team vision, you know, two people who really care deeply about the country, who've served the country almost their entire lives, and then have a vision for the future that I think is really compelling and exciting and invigorating and reminds us of who we are as Americans. It is such a good contrast, I think is really compelling and exciting and invigorating and reminds us of who we are as Americans. It is such a good contrast, I think, and I'm so excited personally about it.

I totally agree. And you haven't heard from Tim Walz anything like talking about how his mother-in-law's race makes her genetically predisposed to being a good rearer of grandchildren. It's just all so weird. know it's just like it's a normal thought hey i think it was cool my mother-in-law came to help you know my mother-in-law came to help and instead of saying that you know talking about what pre post-menopausal women have to do and like the end and they're just there seems to be a lot of yeah their role there seems to be a lot of thought put into on jd vance's part like what women should do with their bodies, you know? Yes. Yes. And their time and their freedom. No, it's a really scary thing. And I think, you know, that's what's so threatening. I hear all the time. Well, Mikey is, you know, is abortion really going to be something that you talk about New Jersey because New Jersey has good reproductive freedom laws.

And when we look across the country at what's happening, it feels so incredibly threatening to women. And then when you're a mom and my daughter's joined the military, and I know there's 140,000 service members, that doesn't even include their family members down in Texas, for example, which is ranked 49th in reproductive health. And so when my daughter and other women are there, they don't have access to good reproductive care. And so as a woman, you just start to feel like the walls are closing in on you. J.D. Vance's vision of not only what you can do when, I mean, my God, I don't know why I'm saying this, when you're menstruating, like what the flip, right? So we can't have reproductive health care then. And then when

you're post-menopausal, you're just going to go, you know, sit with your grandchildren and I guess your golden years. It's just so beyond and I think so threatening to women that kind of, I feel like 1700s vision of the world or something. As a male candidate, just a pro tip, like you have to have a really good reason to discuss menstruation, like just a really, really good one. Like sometimes, you know, the relevant policies, but not just flip. You mentioned your service, your daughter's service, which we honor and we're grateful

for. Obviously, people's service is now coming in question in the campaign with regards to J.D. Vance. He's going after Tim Walls, which we've been discussing here. How have you kind of reacted to J.D.'s attacks and how Walls has pushed back on him this week? It's just so infuriating, and especially because it's such a reminder to me of a particular moment in my life. I had just finished my service in the Navy and was getting out of the Navy after almost 10 years and coming home. I'd been overseas in my last duty station. So I was coming home

and waiting to go to law school. And that summer is when the Swift boat attacks came out against John Kerry. And to sort of have just been in the military and to have been, I worked for Vietnam vets. I know you're saying, no, Mikey, you're too young. No, no, I really did. I was thinking that. I was thinking that. Yeah. I know you were. I'm being facetious. But But no, work for Vietnam vets. I remember an admiral I worked for had bullet scars up and down his arms because of his work as a swift boat captain. to people at the Naval Academy when I was there and how brave he was in refusing to be released because he knew that that was just a ploy by the Vietnamese to try to undermine the morale of other POWs. And to then see that John Kerry's service like that was a reason to attack him, not just that the service wasn't something that

we were honoring, but it was an actual reason people were attacking him. And that La Cevita was using that as an attack point was just so beyond offensive to me and beyond the pale. And I couldn't believe that the American people sort of accepted that. And then to see now this starting again with Waltz's service, somebody who served for 24 years, a lot of people haven't served in the military or maybe aren't familiar, but a 20 year term of service is a general retirement, 20 years. So the fact that he served for 24 years in the National Guard, and, you know and has, I think we've seen it other areas in his life where he's such a great public service. And then he got out not to just retire and hang out down the shore with his family, but

to actually then go into Congress and get on the Veterans Committee so he could further advocate for veterans to have that all attack, to have that life of service attack, not for any other reason than because he's a veteran and served so well, I just find so incredibly offensive. And then you combine that with Trump, right? You combine that with him saying stuff like people who serve are suckers and losers and denigrating John McCain and denigrating Gold Star families, refusing to get out of his car to honor people who died in World War I, saying he didn't want to be seen with disabled veterans. I mean, it's just really incredibly offensive. Couldn't agree more. As we speak about not going back, looking to the future,

you are, I think, strongly considering a run for governor there in New Jersey. So my first question when I heard that is, are you doing that just to get away from the House Republican colleagues? Or is there something else, some other reason that you're thinking about it? So I was in that class of 2018, the first group of people to run in that midterm after Trump had gotten into office. And I remember at that time, you know, there were quite a few veterans running at that time. And I now serve with some of those great veterans like Chrissy Houlihan and Jason Crow. And then people like Abigail Spanberg and Alyssa Slatkin, who are in national, were in national service as well. And also part of the unofficial

Bulwark Caucus, but you know, you can continue. Okay, great, great. I love this caucus. So this constituent of mine goes, you know, all you guys are crazy, because you know what, when everyone else is running away from a crisis, you're all running towards the crisis, you veterans are crazy. And that sort of struck me, because that was what compelled me to run and what compelled, you know, that group of people to run Abigail, and Alyssa and Christy and Jason and myself, we'd not been in elected office. I don't think we had thought of running for elected office before Trump was elected.

It really was that desire to serve our country at a time when we thought our country was really facing exigent circumstances. That has continued to this day. So while, yes, I don't think I can make a compelling argument that the House of Representatives is running beautifully, or that it's a lovely place to be, or, you know, I can say that I'm incredibly proud to be there right now, because we need to make sure our democratic institutions continue to work and

continue to function. And it's hard, and it's not pretty. And there are a lot of people in the Freedom Caucus who would just like to collapse the whole thing. But it's really important to have people who are down there serving day in and day out and making sure that our House of Representatives continues to deliver. So that was a really long way of saying, no, that's not why I'm fleeing from the House of Representatives. I'm really, really proud to be there. But I do think that our governors across the country have been doing really great things and We don't connect with people. I think that's true, but it's not because of our policies. It's not because of our values. It's because sometimes I think of the way we talk. And maybe one of the best things I thought Kamala Harris did was when Trump said, oh, first she was Indian, and then she was black and blah, blah, blah. And she didn't even take the bait, right? We're so, oh my gosh, as Democrats, we take the bait all the time.

Right. She was just totally like, I'm not even like seriously, I'm not going there. And I think governors are much better at just staying focused on, as Gretchen Whitmer would say, fixing the damn roads. Like what is happening in people's lives and how do we just address it? And so that's really compelling to me. Well, as you look at it, I know you got to go, but I've got to do my centrist former Republican pelt thing and ask you, as you look to potentially run for governor, if you look at the blue states, is there anything out there that you're like,

you know, I think our side could do this a little bit better. I don't know if we've hit the mark on this issue or that topic. Is there anything that kind of stands out as something that the blue states have been missing? Well, I think the governors are getting a lot of it. I would say sometimes the Washington Democratic Party doesn't always get the legislation, but I think you often see our governors understanding it better. So, for example, I would say we need comprehensive immigration reform. We do need to understand who's coming across our southern border and what. I mean, I'm on the Committee for Strategic Competition with China, with the Chinese Communist Party, and the precursor chemicals to fentanyl are being pushed into Mexico

so they can be shoved up through the southern border. And we need high-end machines to track that. We need more processing ability. If you don't want people, and I don't want people certainly, incarcerated for months while they're waiting to be processed at our southern border, if you don't want bad outcomes there, we need more resources at our southern border. We need more people, we need more processing, we need more judges, we need more fentanyl machines, etc. So I think that's one area where the governors are getting it. I'm not sure that in Washington that is as understood, although the Senate, I think, did a very position. I think we have to really come up with an energy solution. We have to address permitting reform, not just at the federal level, but at the state level. Now that's why you're in the Bulldog Caucus, permitting reform.

You've hit it. We are not going to build the energy outcomes of tomorrow if we don't get on permitting reform. And even infrastructure. I was just speaking to someone at Amtrak who was saying, you know, France, and I don't think France is a bastion of right wing conservatism, builds their infrastructure at such a lower cost than the United States. So if we're really going to build the infrastructure of tomorrow in rail, and certainly in our energy infrastructure, we have got to look at permitting reform and how much it costs to build things here in this country. So that's another key area. I could probably go on. I think about all this

stuff all the time, but we're at time. We're at time. You nailed it. Come on back soon. I had so much more to get to. I love hearing from you, Congressman Michael Sherrill, coming at us from, I think, an indoor ski slope in New Jersey, very new jersey experience we don't know anything about this we're doing a business walk yeah that's we appreciate you we'll be talking soon great thanks again thank you so much congressman dean phillips congresswoman mikey sherrill two faves of this pod uh you'll be hearing from both of them again soon we'll be back tomorrow for a weekend edition of the bulwark podcast see y'all then peace

leave it all to bloom you were right I know I can't get enough of you the things that I would do under the water I'm sinking further down Floating on nothing I'm nothing, mmm Arms wide open I'm calling out your name Sitting and waiting I'm waiting

You were right The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.