The Bulwark Podcast - DeSantis’s WTF Memo

Episode Date: August 18, 2023

The governor of Florida is being treated like a low-IQ child. Meanwhile, Trump hasn't been treated like the common criminal he is: mugshot him, weigh him, jail him. Plus, the Democrats' Senate leadership is MIA. Tim Miller joins Charlie Sykes for the weekend pod.

happy friday welcome to the bulwark podcast it is august 18th 2023 i'm charlie sikes and tim miller i have to tell you i am blown away by this news cycle i just there's so much there's so much going on how was it august 18th remember when i when i was a kid on august 18th was like shark week uh you know the news cycle like we'd there'd be a shark sighting out of san diego and that would be all that people would talk about for a few days yeah so what what is the most gobsmacking story of the day i don't know let's just you know reach our hand out you can't say that donald trump and his lawyers don't have a sense of humor i guess that's true what was your first reaction when you heard that they were, they wanted to delay,

I'm going to call it the coup case, the January 6th case. They wanted to delay it to 2026. It's a bold ask. It's not an interesting ask. I was also intrigued that, you know, in the DC case, they asked we have to move it

to West Virginia. But in the Georgia case, now we got to move that to West Virginia. But in the Georgia case, now we've got to move that to federal court. But, you know, why not? Who knows? Consistency is not necessarily needed here. I think it's highly unlikely that Judge Tanya Chutkin is going to be delaying the case for more than two and a half years. But, you know, it is kind of an interesting tell because, you know, if you're accused of something falsely and you want to be exonerated, I mean, don't you want your day in court like right now? And Trump's position is basically, yeah, kind of like I would like a date in April of like never.

You would think so. Speaking of tells, also, he announced a big press conference at Bedminster on Monday. I was blocking out my schedule. We were going to do a YouTube reaction to it. I was very excited. He was going to reveal all the fraud details. Then he's like, well, actually, actually, we're just going to file these in court documents. It's like, oh, yeah, right. Because if you had the proof that proved that you were innocent, you definitely would want, Donald Trump definitely would want to keep him under seal. Yeah. How many times has Donald Trump done

this saying, you know, in two weeks, I'm going to announce, you know, my health care plan or I'm going to announce my infrastructure plan or I'm going to hold this press conference explaining Melania Trump's immigration status. And it never happens. And this one or Obama's birth certificate. Exactly. The moment he announced I had this big press conference and I'm going to lay out the definitive evidence, I'm thinking this is never going to happen. It's just not going to happen. So my shocked face, Trump cancels press conference on election fraud claims, claims attorney's advice.

The attorneys probably were saying something like, you do this, we're quitting. Right. There are only four of us left. I'm going to get to my other favorite story of the day just in a moment. I actually have so many favorite stories of the day. The Kenneth Cheeseborough, fellow cheesehead, Wisconsin native, we are so proud. Alleged architect of the fake electors plot. Turns out that I was following Alex Jones around the Capitol grounds on January 6th.

This is a CNN exclusive. Can we just put this to the side here? Because we have to start with this story. And I said in my newsletter this morning, you know, I really had hoped to write about anything except Ron DeSantis' failing fumbling campaign. I mean, we've kind of done that a lot. But I'm sorry, I don't know how you don't talk about this weird moment where, not a leak, the super PAC posts the memo about his debate strategy here. Now, before we get into this, I've been describing him as, you know, real man of political genius, but it occurs to me that there are a lot of folks out there that do not understand that reference. You do, right, Tim? Oh, yeah. This is a childhood, formative childhood ad campaign.

Yeah. This is Bud Light. This is a famous, famous, famous ad campaign. In case you remember, remember the Real Men of Genius? Budweiser presents Real Men of Genius. Real Men of Genius. Today we salute you, Mr. Real. Love the falsetto. Oh, and they go, we salute you. And there's one after another. We can't even go through all

of them. They were classics. So every time I see something like this, I think, you know, Rhonda Sandis, real man of genius. Okay, so you commented on this. In fact, I quote you in my headline of the newsletter saying this is really kind of the, what did you say, one of the most WTF leaks in memory. But you have to sort of step back. This is what I wrote. I mean, you take a moment to consider where Ron DeSantis is in, and he's trailing Trump by 39 points. He's shedding votes and donors. He's reset his campaign about a dozen times, right? Fired staff. He has to fly commercial now. He's been trying to imitate a normal human being, somebody who's likable. That's not working. He's being

mercilessly trolled by Trump. And so he has a chance to really turn things around next week, right? Maybe his last chance. He's got to come to Milwaukee. He's going to be on the debate stage. And he's been given a gift by the political gods, right? Because the debate takes place the same week that his main rival for the Republican nomination is going to be arrested, fingerprinted, have his mugshot taken after being indicted for his fourth time. And his main strategy is going to be defend Donald Trump, Mr. Miller. Attack Vivek. Sledgehammer Vivek.

I am so, I'm so sick of talking about tiny d i mean i there for a while there was some joy in watching his suffering just because he earned it so much just with his slavish sucking up to donald trump and don't say gay and and and all the fucking anti-anti-trumpers that were you know kind of guilt saying you guys have to get on the board with the santas or else you're a trump supporter so so just watching all their pain there has been a schadenfreude element to that that i've enjoyed but i'm like you i'm getting bored with it it's like every week it's like on the next level on this podcast on the website it's like we got to keep talking about how much of a disaster he is but i really could do the full hour on this memo yeah like this is like the cherry on top of the

schadenfreude cake because it's unbelievable. I mean, it is. I'll just leave this little teaser. It is also a little triggering because I had a bad debate leak in my career. We can talk about it after. But this one is so much worse. It's like you look at this memo. And on the Real Men of Genius list, we have to mention Jeff Rowe, the supposed Svengali strategist of the Super PAC.

There are a million articles about that genius behind the Ted Cruz. Yeah. The next Carl Rove and every, you know, all everyone was recruiting to have Jeff row. Trump wanted them young Ken and DeSantis. There was a, and it's like,

he runs this firm axiom strategies. And that is where this memo that we're about to talk about, like they posted on their own fucking website. It's like, how do you think somebody found that guys? Like, this is not a leak. It's like, we're putting this out because we want people to see this.

And the memo treats Ron DeSantis. Like he is a child. Like he is a dumb child, like a low IQ child. And it talks to him like a baby it is so condescending there's a type of memo that you would write to like herschel walker right like a first-time candidate who's never debated and like it's a celebrity or something and doesn't even really know politics and and you're a consultant you come in and like you've been charged with like trying to give somebody the abcs of how to debate. Like that is what this memo is for a guy that's a two time

sitting governor that is supposedly the great white hope for the, you know, non-Trump Republicans. You know, it's like, please show emotion. It's like when your wife, tell a story about your wife that shows emotion. It's like, if you were attacked pivot you know to attack another candidate you know rather than responding to the it's like maybe media training 101 it's like roger ailes one posted note be human it's like what i mean so a the tone of this whole thing you know it gives them little things it's like it's like i'm writing to my kid like okay you know you got to brush your teeth for one minute okay i'm going to set a timer all right you know it's like attack joe biden three to five times state your positive vision two to three times why do they think he would need this okay and then the specifics of the

advice is stupid and then and then you get to you know three dimensions that one dimensional chest element of this you know where it's like here's how you attack vivek we're going to give you some fake nicknames to try out fake vivek robot vivek and then here's how you deal with chris christie hindu vivek here's how you deal with chris christie and it's like you are gift wrapping Vivek and Chris Christie, the response. This is the part. I mean,

I'm sorry. I actually have tears rolling down my cheeks right now here because it is so bad. You know, as you point out, it does make the candidate seem like a pathetic baby. And then of course it neutralizes all these attacks because you telegraph to Chris Christie that you're going to do this.

The most dangerous debater on the stage, whatever yougraph to Chris Christie that you're going to do this. The most dangerous debater on the stage, whatever you think about Chris Christie, he is not the guy that you want pivoting on you, particularly when you have all of your talking points. Remember how he destroyed Marco Rubio? He said, well, there's the talking point again. Okay, this is going to be almost too easy. Christie's about to be going, are you kidding me? I mean, really? He's just going to look at him and say, is that what your handlers told you to say? Are you now going to call Vivek fake Vivek? I mean, it's just going to be cool. Sorry, Ron. I already knew this attack was coming because your puppet master told the New York Times about it last week. You're the big donors

that are telling you what to say. Sorry, that's not going to land for me. Brian Jones, who's an old colleague of mine, is doing the Chris Christie Super PAC. And his response in the New York Times story was, he's like, our Super PAC sent a memo to Chris Christie, which was, be yourself. Oh, no. The pushback is just so easy. I mean, even Vivek's response was like,

Robot Ron is doing his big donors bidding now why they thought this was necessary smart you know and then you get into the merits of the advice which is also not good which is like ignore trump you don't want to agree with somebody like chris christie who's auditioning for a show on msnbc burn you know and it's like okay that lines off the table now, right? Yeah, right. All right. Well, that was maybe a good hit on Chris Christie, but now you can't use it. And it's like, you're losing to Trump by 40 points. I get the Oh, you know, you don't want them to turn into Charlie Sykes and Tim Miller, right? Okay. Like, that's I get that if you're trying to beat Trump in Republican primary, you're not trying to, you trying to troll him on every possible thing.

But you still have to offer voters something, don't you? And it was just hilarious to watch the National Review, DeSantis fanboys, like, rending the garments yesterday. They're just like, what is the point of this primary? If you're not even going to at least make the case that, like, oh, Donald Trump, maybe it's not smart to nominate somebody who has seven court dates next year. Like, if you can't say that, then what is the point? Noah Rothman over at Dash Review has really not been a DeSantis fanboy, but he did say this. He

said, I don't understand why DeSantis is in the race at this point. If he thinks he can win the nomination by playing blocking tackle for the front runner, just stop wasting everyone's time and money. And even Elise Stefanik, you know, proving the rule that even a blind squirrel finds the nut once in a while, says this is, you know, as a former debate prepper, the first and most obvious rule of debate prep is do not leak the debate prep memo. I mean, she's right there. So this is going to be a little bit of a digression. You saw that sort of deep dive in the Washington Post this week about Ron DeSantis and people, was it Josh Dossi? No, Ben Terrace, about how awkward he is. Is it that one or a different one?

No, no, no, the other one. There have been so many bad Ron DeSantis stories this week, it's hard to keep up. That's the problem. You're talking about the Ben Terrace piece about how well, he's connecting with awkward Americans who see them. Okay, that was pretty... It's like with awkward Americans who see them. Okay, that was pretty. It's like even awkward people that hate Ron DeSantis are starting to feel bad for him. I was like, that's not, this is when things start to get really, really rough. Anyway, go ahead. So, you know, half the audience is going, Tim and Charlie, American democracy is burning and you guys are laughing. Okay, because that's how we preserve our sanity here.

And because he deserves it. So I'm talking about the story where they called around to people, Republicans in Florida, and they basically all said, yeah, this guy's a total asshole. He's always been an asshole. And let me tell you like 10 stories. One of my reactions was, why didn't they make that phone call a year and a half ago? Because apparently it was really easy for donors, for journalists, for, you know, anyone to figure out that, hey, you know, all of this projection on Ron DeSantis was based on, say, some misapprehensions about, you know,

Ron DeSantis, which are playing out in real time. So this was not a mystery. This was not a closely held secret. No, it's not. I mean, obviously, Democrats wouldn't say that about him, but even like his colleagues, right? Like Barbara Comstock. That's what I mean, Republicans. I remember when did we have Barbara Comstock on a Thursday night bulwark? I think it was even before he announced. And she was saying this, a former Congresswoman Republican, you know, who's broken correctly on the party. She was saying he didn't have friends.

I will say, I do think people knew this, even the people that were getting behind him. I think they felt really trapped. And this was part of the, also, I think, you know, I'm going to do some armchair psychological analysis, why there were these over the top attacks on us, right? For criticizing him, right? Because it was like, everyone's just got to get in line. Everyone's got to shut up and get in line. Like, yeah, okay, we've heard some things.

He's kind of weird. Or, you know, yeah, some of his policies, like he went way overboard on the Disney thing and the migrant shipping, but like, but he's our get out of jail free card so if you don't like trump like you just have to just shut up and get in line because he's our get out of jail free card and we're just going to take our chances and if you criticize ron de santos on any of these things that means that you secretly want trump right you really you know you never trumpers really are always trump because otherwise you would be sucking up to Ron DeSantis because he's the guy. When literally the opposite was true.

Right. And I think I forget. I think we all made this point. So I don't want to credit to somebody. But early on, there was a case that was like bottoming out Ron DeSantis early is actually better. Right. Because if this guy's not up for it, I'd run him through the paces. So, yeah.

So maybe they could find somebody else. It's obviously too late for that now. And so the whole premise of that get in line behind Ron DeSantis element was just based on a fraudulent analysis of how good you'd be. I'm not sure anybody does anymore. But I mean, you know, literally, let me just read this. There are four basic must-dos, the memo condescendingly explains to the governor of Florida. Number one, attack Joe Biden in the media three to five times. I love the fact they put a number, but this is actually now, you know, as I spend more time with it. State GRD, that's to say this is, state GRD's positive vision two to three times, but no more than three times. Not as many times as you talk about Joe Biden, because people get bored. Attack the media. Yeah, five times for the media. Positive vision, nobody gives a shit. Three, hammer Vivek Ramaswamy in a response, in a response, defend Donald Trump in absentia in response to a Chris Christie attack. Now, all of this seems to be based on this great theory, the orchestra pit theory,

which refers to Roger Ailes' belief that making mistakes and choreographing attacks will get more media attention. So this is the adage. You have two guys on stage. One guy says, I have a solution to the midis problem. The other guy falls into the orchestra pit, Ailes once said. Who do you think is going to be on the evening news? So real men of political genius like Jeff Rowe extrapolate from that and says, how can we fall into the orchestra pit? Right? I think you missed the point of the advice, but anyway. So, I mean, does that mean that Florida man's going to throw himself into a mosh pit or something if things aren't going well for him? Or if Chris Christie says something nasty to him?

All my text chains are just blowing up with everybody I've ever been in a debate prep with. The most generous among people in the text are like, maybe this is a head fake. This is too stupid to not be a head fake. And maybe it'll make DeSantis seem tough that he doesn't listen to them, that he does attack Trump. I just don't think so. Yeah. Yeah, I just don't think so.

No, no. Occam's razor is the simplest explanation is, no, it really is as dumb as it looks. And I got to tell you, so just to own some of this, to show you why I think I have the credibility to say that this is as dumb as it looks, is that we had this fuck up at the Jeb's campaign,

a similar version, where we had prepared a memo to Jeb. So it was not nearly as dumb as it looks is that we had this fuck up at the jeb's campaign a similar version where we had prepared not a memo to jeb so it was not nearly as embarrassing as this but it was here are like the responses that we're going to put out if somebody attacks him right you know so it was like on a various on like 20 issues it's like if you attack him because of common core like here's what we're going to say or if you know marco whatever is the hypocrite on this and you know some poor kid on our campaign accidentally like pressed play on the website or whatever so like it went so like these these press releases went up on the website they're up for like two minutes but there were some tweets

about enough yeah yeah it was long enough there were some tweets about it and it was like the most embarrassing 30 minutes of my life like i had to walk into a corner office and just like breathe into a bag for a couple of seconds. And luckily this happened 20 minutes before the debate. And so then the debate happens and there are other news like this Ron DeSantis thing is happening a week in advance. It's like bleeding drudge right now. But I'm telling you like these kinds of mistakes like do happen. And so like having lived through just how embarrassing and how painful like that small version of this is i can just smell it like you can smell it when when it happens and something's happened to you and that's what this was these guys thought that they were clever and

could put it up on their own consulting firm's website and the people wouldn't see it i don't know how you could be that stupid but they were the one other thing that's reminiscent about to me do you remember the um do you remember obamacare this was my favorite it's a little history lesson for the pre-trump era people my favorite debate strategist gaffe ever there's this guy nick ayers who was like jeff rowe one time the bell of the media ball and everybody's like the great republican strategist nick ayers never won anything he was tim paulenti's strategist and he leaked to the press ahead of the campaign that palenti was going on stage and look at mitt romney and call romney's health care policy obamni care this is like the old days where this was a tough attack in the pre-trump era and palenti

being minnesota nice just couldn't do it like he got up there and he just didn't want to say it and so he had previewed this big attack and then pallenty didn't say it on stage. And so like the only news coverage after the debate was like, Tim Pawlenty is too scared to criticize Mitt Romney. And this is like very reminiscent of that, but like on ultra steroids. Tales from the before times. Yeah, seriously. These are the same geniuses who thought it was a great idea to launch the entire campaign on Elon Musk's show. Remember how that launch went? And they probably told him, and that really went well, Governor. That really did. That was fabulous. And the same genius who decided to have the Florida legislative session. Ron might just not have had it no matter what, but had he just got in when Trump got in and started

focusing on electability initially, this is is the counter big counterfactual, but instead the geniuses that are like, no, we need, he needs to be governor for five months and pass all these far right draconian cultural bills to like demonstrate that he's more conservative than Donald Trump. And it's like,

wait a minute. So you're going to run a campaign where he's more electable than Donald Trump, but he also is more of a right wing freak on cultural issues. Were there any meetings where somebody was like, you know, guys, I think that there's a little inconsistency here. but he also is more of a right-wing freak on cultural issues than Donald Trump. Were there any meetings where somebody was like, you know, guys, I think that there's a little inconsistency here? Apparently not.

This is the problem. He obviously has a whole suite of problems, including his lack of human authenticity. But it doesn't help the fact that his strategy seems to be, we are going to pander to the far- know, forest right wing. We're going to surround ourselves with some of the most deplorable demagogues like the Christopher Ruffos of the world and hire people like Nate Hockman, who thinks it's a good idea to put swastikas up on our ads and things like that. So at a certain point, you know, you were saying last week, and I thought it was really good insight. Thank you.

About how Mike Pence now seems a little bit more comfortable in his skin. He knows he's not going to win. So he just basically is kind of leaning into it. Okay. So he feels liberated. Rhonda Sintes is the exact opposite because he's like constantly attuned. Like what is the base thinking? What are the based based thinking?

What is the right wing thinking? You know, what, what is going to get the dopamine hit? So you're never actually thinking, what do I really think? What do I want to say? What is like, get the dopamine hit so you're never actually thinking what do i really think what do i want to say what is like who the hell am i really it's like what animates me yeah it's kind of the difference between you know a gyroscope that actually you know has you know has a core as a center versus you know constantly at radar like is there a blip out there that i need to you know that i need to follow you know hey those are my people i need to lead them that whole thing and i don't know how he gets around this. Okay.

So it's really quick on this. Some of our listeners will hate this analogy, but, um, but it's not a moral one. It is just a performance thing, but I do think it's similar to the problem that Kamala found herself in. And sometimes maybe still finds herself in at times. And when I was interviewing Larry Wilmore about this, I was just like, as a Hollywood guy, like, what was your advice for Kamala? And he was basically like, she's just got to let loose and be more and she's got to like demonstrate a more authentic self right like even if it's you know even if it's a little bit of a act so to speak as an actor right like you have to like loosen up and just get comfortable with whatever your answers are going to be and whatever you're going to talk about. And instead, it's almost like when you watch interviews, you can kind of see

the hamster wheel turning sometimes, right? And I think that that's kind of what has hurt her a little bit. Obviously, there's some other stuff, rights and sex and other issues that she's had. But that is very, I think, really happening with DeSantis. You can just feel him flailing and trying to figure out what to say, where he should fit. But back to the point where, you know, his opponents would say, you know, just be yourself. I mean, there's some times when you really do not want to see the authentic real person.

That's maybe true. It is not good. Okay. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. One last thing. Did you see someone was tweeting? I do suffer through a lot of conservative media stuff for our listeners.

I did not suffer through Ron DeSantis' book. Did you see that? Like somebody tweeted the excerpt from his book about where he met his wife no and how he met casey and it's like and it starts by being like i'm a guy that has good hand-eye coordination and he starts talking about his baseball career and then he's like but i my hand-eye coordination didn't always match the golf. And I was at a driving range and there was this woman who was getting good head speed. And it's just like, and this is Casey. So, I mean, if that's how he shows emotion, describing meeting his wife, where he reflects on his own hand-eye coordination and golf head speed, you know, maybe he's to your point, maybe being the true authentic self isn't the answer. Maybe he needs to find a fake persona that feels authentic.

Well, he's been trying and it hasn't worked out for him. Now I'm just hoping that this is the last time that you and I have to actually talk about Ron DeSantis like ever, which is not true. I wish. Okay. Do you agree with me that there's no way that Donald Trump shows up at the debate? I mean, I think he's made that perfectly clear. There was zero chance, especially now that Ron DeSantis is going to, you know, defend him. Like Trump's going to say, why the hell should I show up? I mean, no way.

Zero chance. Zero chance. Had history worked out differently, I don't think it was always zero. Trump does have, obviously, he's a malignant narcissist. And I think that if he was concerned that the spotlight might be off of him, maybe he would have done it. But he doesn't have to do it. And I think that, you know, the spotlight might be off of him. Maybe he would have done it, but he doesn't have to do it. And I think that I know you talked about this a little bit yesterday on the Thursday pod. And you are not quite as convinced about the genius idea of him, you know, surrendering to Fonny Willis on the day of the debate. And I'm not necessarily sure if it's a genius idea either, but it is very Trumpy idea. And my MAGA, I've had some convos with MAGA

world folks, you know, for another thing I'm working on. And they've all decided that they think that's the thing that he should do. So, you know, I don't know whether that's it. He's going to do something. Maybe it's not the surrender. Maybe it's a Tucker Carlson interview. Maybe it's a rally. Maybe it's a press conference.

But he's going to do something to counter-program, and that makes a lot more sense. Right. And, of course, the counter-programming, really, I don't think that he wants the image of himself being perp-walked, you know, in split screen with the other candidates. I mean, that is not the image. However, doing the Tucker thing or doing some other thing. Remember when he boycotted the Fox News debate? Didn't he hold like a, you know, a rally in a, you know, claimed fundraiser for veterans? I don't know if the veterans ever got any money. Yeah, no, it was a fundraiser, and then he never gave the money to the veterans then he got shamed into it so on brand okay so

before we get into uh the the indictments and everything and your reaction to all of that i'm surprised you didn't come on saying you were you were having mimosas in celebration of you know indictment for me i can only drink so much i mean is this is this getting old for you i can only drink so much charlie and i live in new or Orleans now. Every time there's an indictment, I drink. There's a lot of evidence to the contrary. People are inviting me places. So I'm sober this morning. Thank you for asking.

So before we get to that, though, the CNN story that just broke this morning about Kenneth Cheeseborough, who is one of the lawyers who was the architect of the fake elector scheme, actually was born in Wisconsin and played a role here in Wisconsin. I'd never heard of him before all this happened. And I think he's probably kind of the least known of all of the lawyer plotters. He's certainly less well-known than Rudy Giuliani or Jenna Ellis or Jeff Clark or Sidney Powell, all of those folks. But it turns out that he was actually at the Capitol on January 6th. And the detail that jumps out at me here is he was not just at the Capitol. He was hanging out with Alex Jones. And this is a great report, you know, from CNN.

Here's the report. When conspiracy theorist Alex Jones marched his way to the U.S. Capitol on January 6th, 2021, riling up his legion of supporters, an unassuming middle-aged man in a red Trump 2020 hat conspicuously tagged along. Videos and photographs reviewed by CNN show the man dutifully recording Jones with his phone as the bombastic media personality ascended to the restricted area of the Capitol grounds where mobs of then-President Donald Trump supporters eventually broke in. While the man's actions outside the Capitol that day have drawn little scrutiny, his alleged connections to a plot to overthrow the 2020 election have

recently come into sharp focus. He is attorney Kenneth Cheeseborough, the alleged architect of the scheme to subvert the 2020 electoral college process by using fake GOP electors in multiple states. Okay, are you ready for kind of a golden oldie, kind of a flashback, Tim? I'm pleased. Okay. So keep in mind that here is one of these key players who has now been indicted, one of the key go-to guys in Trump world to overturn the election. And he's hanging around. He is hanging around with Alex Jones. This is the audio of a video that Alex Jones posted, like I think it was five days before the insurrection. This is Alex Jones. This is the guy

that Kenneth Chisborough was tagging along with. Alex Jones, I think beginning of January 2021. Just listen to this. President Trump confirmed today, January 1st, 2021, that he is going to be speaking at a rally and an event coming up next Wednesday, January 6th. Now, we happen to know the location of that. We're going to lay it out for you now, but everybody has to get to D.C. There's going to be a huge rally at Freedom Plaza on the evening of the 5th on Tuesday, and then in the morning, it's going to open up at about 8 a.m. for everybody to get in to the Ellipse that is just south of the White House. There's room for a lot of people, but not for the millions that will be there.

They'll be on the outside of that. And then we're going to march to the Capitol that's going to be holding the debate over the election that starts that day. This is a critical time in history. Now, I'm going to be holding the debate over the election that starts that day. This is a critical time in history. Now, I'm going to be speaking in D.C. Roger Stone's going to be speaking in D.C. General Flynn's going to be speaking in D.C. at multiple events. Roger Stone spent some substantial time with Trump in Florida just a few days ago.

And I'm told big things are afoot and that Trump's got major action up his sleeve. Thank God he's not giving into this tyranny. Thank God he's not acquiescing and going along with the gaslighting and the fraud and the lie that there's no evidence of election scams because we have absolutely massive evidence. And the president must not concede. He must never concede because Joe Biden tried to steal this election, got caught doing it, and is a communist Chinese agent. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Just kind of throws in there.

And is a communist Chinese agent, which, by the way, Tim, would really be big if true. It would definitely be news. That's kind of a big throwaway line. Yeah, I think it was something we'd talk about on the pod. The Roger Stone element of that, obviously all of that was in stain, but the Roger Stone element of that I think is particularly interesting to re-listen to now, especially given that video that Ari Melber aired this week and others. There's a documentary about Roger Stone where it talks about him plotting this plan. Cheeseboro, you know, who is with Jones there on January 6th, and Stone, who was obviously talking

to Jones, you know, was working on this plot to come up with fake electors and to disrupt the count on January 6th. Yeah, it's one of those things where you don't need to say, you know, elaborately say this was a planned event, because they're going, wait, wait, wait, it was planned. We were doing all of this. And clearly, Alex Jones knew what was going on, was right into whatever the plan was. And he's talking about, you know, Roger Stone spending time. And you're making a reference to this videotape, which I'm sure that many of our listeners have already heard of Roger Stone. I think it was a couple of days after the election, basically dictating the fake elector plot, just laying it out exactly as they tried to do it. Okay.

The reason I was asking you about the mimosas before is that there is some speculation that with all of these indictments, there's a certain numbing effect. There'd be kind of a surreal sense that, okay, same old, same old, but this is a big freaking deal. I mean, this is the week that Donald Trump was indicted on, I've lost track now, Tim, 13 more felony charges. Yeah, we're up to 91. He's up to 91 felony charges. And next week, he's going to be perp walked. I mean, that's a term of art, but he's going to be fingerprinted.

He'll be arrested. They will take his mugshot. Now, there's a rumor going around. Okay, I want to answer the actual question, but I should have had you ask this on the Trump Trials pod to the experts. Yeah. There's a rumor going around that he might get weighed. Is that too much to hope for? Oh, you know, come on.

Our cup runneth over already. I know, but I just, that would really be the icing on the cake. I mean, for me, the fingerprints, the tiny fingerprints, that's going to be exciting. The mugshot is exciting. But getting him weighed, I mean, there's just an indignity to that, especially because of his lies about his weight and how sensitive he is of all that. I mean, there's just something about that that would really be a chef's kiss for me. Have you noticed there's kind of a division, though, among the anti-Trump world? There's a little bit of pearl clutchinging like, oh, is this too much?

Is this going to backfire? We don't want him to go to jail and everything. And I think you and I are in the camp of going, we better get the good champagne out next week. Let's be honest about this. Yeah, no, we're on the same side of this. I think there is legitimate reason to think it all through and to talk it through. We are we are an unprecedented place and i yes i i do think that that's totally legitimate and that we should have you know serious and sober-minded people that are trying to decide what to do here i'm just not going to be one of them i like i'm the more pain i'm in the more pain is better camp and this fucker deserves everything that he's coming to him and i think yeah there has been a two-tiered system of justice and he's been the one that's been treated unfairly in a way that has benefited

him because he hasn't been treated like a regular common criminal that he is and i'm glad that he's going to in georgia i'm not going to let any concerns about this other stuff get me down i think there are legitimate concerns about domestic terrorism and legitimate concerns about you know our institutions and all that, but fuck him also. And that's where I land on. Okay. So the big case is still the, uh, is still the Jack Smith case in, in Washington, DC, the January 6th. That is, that is the case. This is very much an insurance policy in many ways, because there was no presidential pardon here. Um, there's no, there's their, their mandatory minimums. There's not even a governor of Georgia pardon here.

That's right. That's right. And the Georgia RICO statute is actually more potent for the prosecutors than the federal RICO charges. And in Georgia, you have, you know, all of the planets aligned. You have the fake elector plot, the lying, the, you know, tampering with voting machines, and you have an audio tape. Lordy, there are tapes. There are tapes of the former president trying to get. So there's a lot going on there. I'm not among those who are wringing my hands about this. However, now can I be earnest because we've kind of been, we've had a light mood and now I need to be a little bit earnest. And I apologize for the earnestness here. The attacks on the DA and the implicit threats against the grand jurors are a very, very dangerous moment here.

And particularly as we, and I think I described it last night on one of the cable shows, is, you know, Donald Trump is flicking lighted matches, you know, at a bonfire that's already soaked in kerosene. And we are in a world right now where we have seen the potential of political violence, not the potential, the actual political violence, whether you're talking about a church in Charleston, a synagogue in Pittsburgh, a Walmart in El Paso, a grocery store in Buffalo, guys who send pipe bombs to journalists. An attack on the FBI office after the Mar-a-Lago raid. A MAGA extremist with an arsenal of guns in Utah who was killed by the FBI. And I am continuing to escalate their tactics, including doxing the jurors. At some point, we're going to find out how far the judges are going to let him go. But also, you would think that at least some Republican voices, other than, say, Chris Christie,

and others, would say, look, at minimum, we need to lower the temperature of the rhetoric. We need to be aware of how dangerous this is, that these toxic ideas can have fatal consequences. So the bare minimum would be for somebody on that debate stage who is not necessarily anti-Trump to say, okay, whatever criticism we might have about this or qualms we might have about this, you know, what we cannot do is to continue to foment this kind of irrational hatred because it's going to end badly. And it's so predictable. This is not Trump derangement syndrome. We saw what happened on January 6th. We've seen one guy in one city with a gun who's deciding that America is being taken away. Because if you actually believe that the country has been taken over, has been stolen by an agent of the Chinese communists,

right, and has destroyed our democracy, and they hate God, and they hate America, and they hate everything good and decent in America, then what is the response? This sludge is being pumped out every single day. And you and I don't even see all of it. We spend a lot of time on conservative media, but there is that dark, far right world out there that has millions of people who are listening to this. It is really a dangerous situation.

So there ends my earnest rant, because I am, to quote our good friend Bill Kristol, I'm alarmed. Yeah. And there's a lot there. Also, I share your earnest concern about this. And I think there are two elements of that in particular. The first one, just to speak to the previous question, I mean, obviously, I want to see

Donald Trump punished because he deserves it and because it would feel good. But also, he needs to be treated in the same way that other defendants fomenting violence would be treated. And even Alberto Gonzalez and Bill Barr, we have not seen a lot of courage from Republican politicians. I'll get there's no reason to think, our friends at Republican Accountability Project put this out, that there's no reason to think that he would not have been indicted on this if he was not running as a candidate. All this stuff would absolutely still be going through. This is not political. And so I want to take that one step further, which is another defendant. If this was one of the other RICO cases georgia is uh you know targeting these rappers ygl and like if they were out there doing rap songs about how like people should shoot up fanny willis's house there would be real legal ramifications

for that and that's basically what donald trump is doing and there should be real legal ramifications for that and i hope that they that he is not does not there should be real legal ramifications for that. And I hope that he is not, does not continue to be treated lightly. And that's just where I fall on the merits of all this. I get that they're different. Well, I completely agree with you. On the Republicans really quick, on the Republican candidates. I just think this has to be said. And this is the thing that really gets my dander up. We always, always talk about the same people, you know, the handful of good republicans left the chris racist and mit romney's and then the crazies right but there are a lot of other

republicans out there that just continue to remain silent you know i was speaking to there's a great group carolina fullworth you live in north carolina look at them up i spoke to them this week and i was talking about tom tillis and it's like where is tom tillis tom tillis knows fucking better he knows that this is wrong he knows don Tom Tillis knows fucking better. He knows that this is wrong. He knows Donald Trump shouldn't be president again. He knows that the coup effort was wrong. He knows that threatening DAs are wrong. He believes in the rule of law. And people like Tom Tillis are just absent. Like they're just cowering in the corner and hiding, you know, and even Chris Sununu, Chris Sununu is out there doing interviews this week. And he's like, well, if we get it down to a one on one with Trump, then it's like,

what are you guys talking about? You guys need to wake up to the reality that you are in, and be responsible and be leaders and try to turn down the temperature and help on the margins and not just say, oh, some magic fairy is going to come help us and save this in the future. There is no fairy. Yeah, no, I mean, that is, it is the magical thinking, you know, something, something, something, unicorn, asteroid, something's going to do this as long as we don't have to do it. But I think that, you know, if a Tom Tillis were to stand up and say, hey, listen, we cannot have, you know, more violence. We can't have this kind of rhetoric. It's hard for me to imagine that 10, 15, 20 years

from now, he or his children would look back on that and regret it. They said this was the good thing, the right thing. Okay. So I want to read something to you. Okay. Joe Klein, the Joe Klein, famous Joe Klein has a newsletter, which is actually really, really good. Nice guy. Yeah. And he has a piece about, thinks Democrats should be a bit louder about all of this. And I have mixed feelings about it, but I want to get your take on this, okay? So I'm going to read you a couple of paragraphs. Okay. Not to put too fine a point on it, Klein writes, Donald Trump is a ridiculous human being, but he's a bully.

And so no one has the courage to treat him the way he treats other people. No one ever asks, why is your face so orange? Or what is that thing on top of your head? Do you really want to look like Stanley Tucci in The Hunger Games? Or even a more restrained, how long, sir, does it take you to prepare your hair every morning? Or why didn't you just Photoshop those pictures of your inauguration crowd to prove you had more people than Obama? Or did you really want to make that Texas doofus Surgeon General? Or weren't you pretty terrible appointing judges in so many of them throughout your election fraud cases? Why 63 different judges toss your lawsuits? That's a good one. And he goes on to say, treating Donald Trump with respect is not just unwarranted, it defies the law

of the playground because you stand up to bullies. You expose their cowardice. You make fun of them. You say, I'm rubber, you're glue. Everything you say to me bounces back on you. Jack Smith is deranged. Aha, projection. Trump is really talking about himself. Of course, Joe Biden himself cannot do this, not presidential. But his silence about this summer in Trump land hasn't been very effective either, has it? He has said nothing about the seriousness of the indictments.

It is a president's job to explain these things, to put them into perspective. He has allowed tawdry creeps like Jim Jordan to demean the authority of the Justice Department, and Biden's surrogates are even worse. Would the rule of law collapse if Merrick Garland showed some righteous anger? Would it be untoward to suggest that more Americans, especially those who associate Garland's supine silence with weakness, might think twice about Trump if Democrats actually started to fight back in ways that people who did not go to law school might understand. What do you think, Tim Miller? Yeah, there's a lot there. I've mixed views on that as well. You know, the schoolyard taunting, and there are some Democrats that do this. Eric Swalwell does this. Is that effective? Can you out-school yard taunt Trump? Like, maybe not, right?

And so I don't know about that part of it. The latter part of the critique, I think, is more interesting. And Joe Biden has done, on the merits, exactly what the supposed norms crowd would want him to do here on all these cases. Like, to all evidence, maybe something will come out in the future. But to all evidence, Joe Biden come out in the future but to all evidence joe biden has has been completely hands off and really maybe to the detriment they probably should have done this a little quicker and so on the merits he's been good on that but he hasn't gotten any credit for that really you know outside of our world and so has

that been effective i don't know are there ways that he can talk about this stuff that would be more effective? I think so. And I think one thing that Joe Biden has been good at in the past is that he does talk like a normal person, like when he talks, usually, you know, sometimes I have a stutter and, you know, he's slowing down a little bit, but he does, the words he uses are not, you know, he doesn't sound like an Ivy leaguer, right? Yeah. And he's good at that.

And I think that there is something to the idea that maybe he should be talking about and maybe other Democrats, leading Democrats should be explaining in simple terms what is happening. You know, Kevin McCarthy is a good example. I get frustrated when Kevin McCarthy goes out there and says, Donald Trump's polls go up and the deep state is now indicting him. That is obviously bullshit. There are people like us that are out there saying that it's bullshit. And, you know, does Joe Biden need to taunt Kevin McCarthy? No. But would there be some value in

Joe Biden going out there and saying, hey, wait a minute, guys, like a grand jury decided this. Should we explain what a grand jury is? A prosecutor presents evidence. There are regular folks, people like you and me that then decide whether there's enough evidence to go forward i will you know there's the government isn't involved in that is there you know some education out there that would just show how terrible kevin mccarthy is you know maybe i don't on the interview i have coming sunday with robbie kevin who's awesome she's deposed donald trump twice everyone should listen to it but she she's unbelievable she's she's e.g. and carroll's lawyer i love her yeah i love her anyway he made fun of her right yeah he made fun of her uh he said

she's not my type yeah um she talked about how on the eugene carroll jury there was a tim pool that guy that was like he was a kind of a weird guy she didn't use that word weird but she described him and so i'll put those words in my mouth who said that the only news he gets is from tim pool who is this like former leftist who's turned maga youtube person who like is promoting civil war in the country a crazy like totally crazy alex jones level almost crazy but she couldn't strike him like she tried to get the judge to strike him and they went she tells the story and that person sided with eugene carroll right and so it's like would that be a valuable anecdote maybe to share for leading

Democrats just to go out there and communicate a little more clearly about what is happening, about why this is, about how outrageous it is, listing all of Donald Trump's accusations of used on your newsletter? I think maybe there's something to that critique from Klein. I think so too. I'm more agnostic about whether Joe Biden himself should do it, because I think that maybe that's not, you know maybe that's not his role. But back to the Klein's piece, the heart of this is the Democrats seem to believe that Trump's depravity is self-evident, that you don't need to point it out because it's just so obvious. I don't think anything is self-evident anymore. Right? I mean, I just like, you know, subtlety is the stuff that people don't get anymore. I think Republicans understand that. I'm not sure that the Democrats understand that as well, but I could be wrong. People need reminders. People have short memories, man. I know that that's crazy. Normal people, regular people, people that are not political obsessives. Well, you and I do this for a living and every once in a while, don't you have to go back and

say, I need to remind myself of this, this, this, this, this, you know, and if we have to do that, that gives you an indication. So as I was listening to you, though, it occurs to me, I mean, we know what Kevin McCarthy is doing. We know what the demagogues like Comer and all of those folks are doing, and Elise Stefanik. Is there really a Democratic majority in the Senate? I mean, this is a great point. What happened to the U.S. Senate? Is there a U.S. Senate right now? What happened to that Democratic majority? I mean, are they all sitting around waiting for Dianne Feinstein to wake up or something? I mean, what?

When is the last time the Senate has done anything? Do we have a Senate? I know. I've made this rant about Clarence Thomas. And maybe there are some prudential reasons why the Senate Judiciary Committee should not be pushing much harder to investigate Clarence Thomas. Some people would say over the corruption. I think about the Ginny Thomas thing. I remain, maybe I'm crazy.

Maybe you shouldn't be, you know, the sins of the wife shouldn't fall on the husband. But it's like, I don't know, when a Supreme Court justice's wife attempts a coup and is a key player in a coup attempt, I think we should at least be able to ask the justice some questions about what he knew about that and what his thoughts were. Well, okay. I mean, the Republicans with their tiny majority in the House have shown that they can use it to do investigations. I mean, they're shitty at it. They're terrible. They haven't come up with anything, but they are obsessive about it. I don't know, what do they do all day over in the Senate? Is the Senate not allowed to do investigations? You and I are going to get phone calls saying, Tim, Charlie, you just don't know. What do they do all day over in the Senate? Is the Senate not allowed to do investigations? You and I are going to get phone calls saying, Tim, Charlie, you just don't understand. Let me explain to you why we can't. Not bullshit. I mean, seriously, do you have the majority or do you not? Do you have the chair or do you not? Do you have subpoena power or don't you?

Is the Dianne Feinstein thing, basically, has it shut down the Senate? Why is Tommy Tuberville able to gut the ranks of the military when he's in the minority? Explain to me exactly what your majority... Sorry, I just dropped my phone because I'm like over here gesticulating. I'm with you. Yeah, and Jared Kushner. Can't we do a tit for tat? If you're going to investigate Hunter, can't the Senate investigate Jared Kushner? I don't have a good answer. We have some listeners who are in the Democratic Senate. And so maybe you can tell me that maybe we're missing something.

But I am with you 100%. I'm really glad to hear you say that because I'm thinking I obviously am missing something. And I was figuring that you would explain to me, Charlie, what you don't understand. I wish I could. Chuck Schumer is playing this complicated, you know, five-dimensional Yahtzee game that you Wisconsinites just don't get, you know? I don't think so. Because what do you think Mitch McConnell would be doing? And the Democrats probably aren't going to be in control of the Senate next time.

I mean, you know, who knows? We're a long way out to getting that. But I think they have a much better chance to retake the House, frankly, just because of the nature of the map. And so it's like, this should be your moment, right? And if you have the gavel on one of these committees, especially if they can't pass anything, you'd think the fact that they can't pass anything would make the investigations more appealing, right? Because you can't really do anything legislatively. Okay, well, think back at what Nancy Pelosi did with a five-vote majority in the House. I mean, she had nothing. That was

really nothing. Think of all the things that she was able to accomplish and that she was able to do during the Trump years. And then contrast that to Chuck Schumer. I mean, maybe it's like, we don't want to make Ron Johnson mad. Or we need to defer to Marsha Blackburn and Tommy Tuberville. And we need to give a veto to Tom Cotton and to your good friend, Josh Hawley from Missouri. I mean, it's like, well, we would do that, but J.D. Vance would object. Like, what? What is going on over there i am getting myself worked

up about this i'm sorry i have one sympathetic thing i will okay please and then i know we're towards the end yeah like they did do a lot of bipartisan stuff with the small majority in the senate um you know i mean from from chips and gay marriage and so okay and i i leveled this criticism maybe about a year ago and did have some feedback from people in the senate like ah i mean we're we're trying to you to get this deal across the line. You know, you got Manchin to deal with. And there was some sympathy to that, and they deserve credit for that. I think they passed a lot more than a lot of pundits saw it in a bipartisan way.

But that time is done, okay? They might pass an ag bill or something, you know, but no things of real substance are now happening between now and 2024. So with that argument off the table, what are they doing? And that's why your investigative power is so crucial. Deep breath here. Tim Miller, thank you for joining me again on a really kind of an amazing week. What a world we're in.

What a world we're in. Okay. I might go have a mimosa, actually. I don't know. You kind of riled me up, and I feel like I earned it. You have definitely earned it. I appreciate it. Thank you all for listening to this weekend's Bulwark Podcast.

I'm Charlie Sykes. We will be back on Monday, and we will do this all over again. The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper and engineered and edited by Jason Brown.