The Bulwark Podcast - Don Lemon: Elon Is a Troll

Episode Date: March 26, 2024

Elon Musk, for all his keyboard courage, couldn't handle Don Lemon's Q and A, but then sicced his Twitter minions on the ex-CNN host after their interview. Plus, a surprising take on Tucker—and a shout-out to Rachel Maddow and other MSNBC anchors speaking out against the Ronna McDaniel hire. Lemon joins Tim Miller. show notes: The Don Lemon Show 

Hello and welcome to the Bullard podcast. I am your host Tim Miller coming at you live from the Sears Robux studio here in Los Angeles photo studio where I got my childhood pictures taken. I'm with Don Lemon. He's in his living room. It's a little warm there. it sounds like. How are you doing, Don? There's some dogs. I'm great. It's a little warm. We have to open the window. Maybe I should turn the fireplace off. Can we tell everyone this has been like a comedy of errors? I can't get into the thing, the microphone, the computer, the headphones, the dogs. The post-cable life is a little different. I'm wondering, there's some downsides, right? You don't have a team there kind of doing your mic for you.

But also, maybe your synapses are firing in your brain like you know as maybe do you feel like you're seeing the world in technicolor now they're pros and cons right to be an off the cable grind i love it well yeah i guess mostly pros i get to do what i want to do i get to choose the content i choose i get to talk about what i want to talk about i get to lean into what candidate I feel I'm feeling excited about. I get to, I get to be more transparent. So it's mostly pros. I was thinking, and you're doing what, three hours every day on the morning when you moved to the morning? When I moved to the morning, yeah, but that was a short, yeah, that was a short period of time. That was three, six to nine. But even still. Yeah, but I did two hours a night at least for eight years on cnn i mean

that's a lot yeah that's a lot eventually your brain had to be like no uh-uh i'm not i'm not i'm not working at 100 this is your brain on cable is that kind of thing yeah it was a lot okay i've got a theme for this show i want to talk about elon and it's within the theme and the theme is how are we supposed to how are people in the media that care about truth like you supposed to deal with mega politicians and mega platforms you have the don lemon show it was on x for a minute still on x but you're also on youtube you're on iheart how do we reach mega voters how do you deal with mega politicians i think a lot of times

progressive, you know, commenters think that this is a lot easier question than it is like, don't platform them. But it's, it's actually kind of a complicated question. And I want to start with Rana. But I'm curious what your biggest pictures thoughts are on that before we get to Rana. Oh, you mean what happens with the MAGA folks? What do you do? Yeah, how do you do? How what are we supposed to do with them? Well, I always had this policy that, you know, I didn't like to give a platform to people who were liars or insurrectionists or, you know, who are just apologists. And that didn't really offer any insight or didn't educate the viewer at all. That was my policy, especially when I was at night and for most of my years at CNN. I do think that you have to hear from,

I hate to say all sides, right? I don't believe in like fake balance. Again, I don't believe in putting people on. All sides matter. Yeah, all sides matter. I don't believe in putting people on who are liars, basically, and who are election deniers. But you do have to hear from, you know, Republicans and Democrats. I'm an independent. I'm not registered to vote under any political party. I think it's a sort of a case by case basis. But when it registered to vote under any political party. I think it's a sort of a case-by-case basis. But when it comes to MAGA, we're in a whole different territory now, Tim. And I think we have to be careful about who we put on the air because people come on the

air just in order to lie. And that is a new phenomenon within the Trump era. Yeah. I want to dig into that a little more. Let's start with Ronna. So NBC hires Ronna. Everybody knows about this Ronna Romney. Romney was her name right before she changed it to make Donald Trump happy.

And there was kind of an unprecedented backlash among the on-air talent. I hate the word talent, but among the on-air journalists for NBC. I want to play one clip that really struck me from Rachel Maddow last night. Let's listen to that. If you care what I think about this, I will tell you the fact that Ms. McDaniel is on the payroll at NBC News, to me, that is inexplicable. I mean, you wouldn't hire a wise guy. You wouldn't hire a made man, like a mobster, to work at a DA's office, right. You wouldn't hire a made man like a mobster to work at a DA's office, right? You wouldn't hire a pickpocket to work as a TSA screener. And so I find the decision to put her on the payroll inexplicable. And I hope they will reverse their decision. And it's not about,

you know, Democratic Party, Republican Party. It's not about partisanship. It's not about right versus left. It's not about being a political professional versus some other kinds of person. It's not about being mean or nice to journalists. It's not about just being associated with Donald Trump and his time in the Republican Party. It's not even about lying or not lying. It's about our system of government and undermining elections and going after democracy as an ongoing project.

What do you think about that? I watched it live and I think it was an amazing commentary. Quite frankly, I kept thinking if I was in cable news, this is something that I would do. There are very few people who have the balls to do what she did and to stand up to management. Most people just want to, you know, hey, I don't want to say anything. I don't want to rock the boat. I have this big paycheck. You know, I'm afraid of not getting access to certain people. I'm afraid that people are going to think that I'm partisan. There's a lot of that going on all over, not just in cable,

but in broadcast as well. And I'm sure probably in print or what have you. Bravo to Rachel Maddow because she spoke the truth and she did it in a way that made people understand the dangers of, and I hate that word platforming, but the dangers of elevating and giving, amplifying is a better word, amplifying the voice of someone who is really a pathological liar. Someone who has encouraged and supported someone who inspired an insurrection, someone who went along with a fake elector scheme, someone who was part of trying to overthrow the will of the people of a free and fair election. So what I thought of that, I thought it was right on. And

I kept thinking, quite honestly, Tim, what head will be first to roll at NBC for making that hire? They can hire who they want. Is there a ball field? Seems like Rana might be the first head to roll. Well, I mean, I meant in management because someone had to make the decision. I mean, look, if someone offered you a ton of money to become a contributor, would you say no? No. I'm just saying it's not Rana McDaniel's fault.

Rana McDaniel is who she is, as I just pointed out. But I mean, what was her role there? She was just a living, breathing example of an insult to all the journalists at NBC and MSNBC. Yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty boss move by Rachel. I'm just going to work one night and then I'm going to spend half of my one night this week making fun of my bosses. I do have to give us credit for that.

Making fun is very wrong. Attacking my boss. I do have to give us credit for that. Making fun is very wrong. Attacking my bosses. I don't think she attacked them. Yeah. Attacking their judgment, criticizing their judgment. Well, she held up a mirror. Yeah. I don't think she attacked them. I think that, look, I think that she was very kind to Rashida Jones. And she said, you know, she believes that Rashida made the right decision. Eventually, I'm not sure about at first, like the first part, she said, you know, after there was outrage among the ranks, Rashida made the right decision, which was great. I commend Rashida for that. And then she said, it takes a big person to realize that they made a mistake in reverse course. And so I think she was saying, Rashida did it. You guys should do it. And you

guys can do it. So I don't think she was insulting them. She was trying to appeal to their better angels. Yeah. It's worth mentioning wasn't just Rachel as my fellow former Republican Scarborough and Nicole Wallace also had similar commentaries. Rachel's was just the most pointed. Here's the thing though. Inject Todd. Inject Todd. Yeah. Ron is kind of an easy call because she was among the most shameless liars when it comes to the, you know, the election denialism and apologists for donald trump but here's the problem don like okay so if you're a news network we can take it out from cable just anything if you're a news organization of any kind any platform and one party has become a you know completely enthrall to a pathological liar who tried to

overturn the government and everybody supports him at some level in that party. But that's one of the two major parties in our system. What do you do? Like, where is the line? You know, do you have Mike Lee on your network? Mike Johnson is the Speaker of the House now. He was part of the effort to overturn the election. How do you deal with these people? As I said, it's a case by case basis, because Mike Johnson a speaker of house and you want to hear from him and you want to hear from people who have roles in the government. You have to do that, but you have to fact check them in real time or you tape them and then offer your viewer. You tell them or whomever are your listener, this is a truth. They were lying about this. But Ronald McDaniel is not even popular among

the MAGA folks, even though she helped him out. I mean, she's not even popular among Republicans. Like she's kind of on the outs of the party. She just, she got outed. Like Donald Trump said, no more, I'm going to put someone else in. So that's why I don't really understand that decision. It's not a tough decision when it comes to Ronald McDaniel, but when it comes to other people, you know, you don't have to put the Matt Gaetz of the world on, I'm sorry. You can talk about people, you can talk about folks, you can talk about their policies you can explain what they're doing but you do not have to put them on if they're only going to come on and hijack the broadcast or whatever it is that you're doing and lie to people it's very simple you're offering a service

and if people aren't getting anything from that service, then why do it? You know, I came to buy a cake and you're trying to sell me a pizza. That's not, you know, that's not what you do. But also what I would tell people all the time when they came on and they tried to lie and they, they wouldn't, you know, pay attention or, you know, they tried to hijack the show is that it is not a right for you to appear on any network on this network that I'm on. It is a privilege for you to get to speak directly to the American people and so many of the American people. And so if you're going to come on and if you want to have that privilege, then you have to respect the people and not lie to them. And you have to respect the

network and you have to respect me. Otherwise I don't have to have you on. Do you worry though? I hear, I totally agree with everything you said. I just wonder how you think about the echo chamber problem of it all. And sometimes I feel like not as much anymore. Like back in 2016, it made sense. I just worked for Jeb, you know, networks would have me on it'd be like, hey, you'll have an Obama person and a former Jeb person and we'll argue and sometimes we'll agree on things, sometimes we'll disagree. That made sense. Right. But I feel like then that continued into the Trump era where people were like hey we'll have jen saki and tim miller on and it's like me and jen agree on almost like we don't agree on tax

cuts right but like we like on the core question about the guy that was the president at that time and now he's running for president again we agree and so don't you need to represent the view of maga world like if you're if you're in political news like don't you need to represent the view of MAGA world? If you're in political news, don't you need to represent their view at some degree and not just have never Trumpers be the token, whatever? Of course. I don't think you're hearing what I'm saying. You can have people who represent the MAGA party,

but they have to be people. Is there anybody that represents them that doesn't lie? Now we're in the Mobius strip. Now this is the question. Who is that? Who is that? Who represents the MAGA party that is not strip. Now this is the question. Who is that? Who is that? Who represents the maggot party that is not a liar? That's the question.

Well, that's really tough. I mean, you know, can you have Kellyanne Conway on? Can you have Sarah Sanders? Can you have Kayleigh McEnany? It's like, I mean. It's just very interesting because, you know, Kellyanne Conway, I remember being on when she actually made the switch from Ted Cruz to Donald Trump. And I was like, wow, I don't get that. I mean, it was like over like a light switch.

It happened to one green room, I think. I was there. I was like, she just got a phone. She got a phone call and changed her mind. We argued in the green room. Yeah, I remember reading the blue cards and it said, you know, Kellyanne Conway, Trump advisor. And I said to my producers, I said, hey, guys, are you listening in the control room? We need to fix Kellyanne's blue, Trump advisor. And I said to my producers, I said, Hey guys, are you listening to the control room? You need to fix Kellyanne's blue card because it says Trump, but she's a,

you know, she's a super PAC or whatever thing for Ted Cruz. And then she looked over at me and she goes, no, that's right. And I went, now you're for Trump. She goes, yes. And I went, God, I don't really understand this whole politics thing. Like it went overnight. Kaylee McEnany was someone that we put on, they needed someone on a show called Get to the Point, which eventually became my staff. They were doing a test show on the network and it was called Get to the Point. They needed like someone who was anti-Trump or Republican, who was cute and blonde or whatever. And so they put her on.

She came on, I think as an anti-Tr Trump. And then she realized like being pro Trump, got her more, you know, recognition. And so then she became pro Trump. But it's, it's interesting how people sort of with no resumes made their resumes and then moved to the front of the line in the Trump era. We've never had this first hard question, which is we don't know what to do. We both agree that we should have the MAGA folks represented, but we don't know. Maybe we should get a MAGA AI to represent them. I don't know. It's one of those things, you know it when you see it, right? You know when someone's like, well, they say, I don't know. I can't really give you the definition of pornography, but I know it when I see it. I can't really give you the definition of who you should have on, but you know it when you see it. You know it when at least people are trying to be practical.

They're trying to tell the truth. No one is going to, it's politics, right? They're going to lie to you, or I shouldn't say they're going to lie to you, but they're going to, you know, embellish, they're going to have their talking points. That's all normal stuff. But if people like come on and they flat out lie, I think you need to change your, you know, thinking about putting them on. Hey, y'all, I got to tell you about this game changing product I use before a night out with drinks. It's called Z Biotics. Z Biotics pre-alcohol probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct

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whether they're happy with Trump being the leader of the party. And it also asked what kind of media they consume. And among people that only consume MAGA media, 100% were happy with Trump being the leader of the party. And it also asked what kind of media they consume. And among people that only consume mega media, 100% were happy with Trump. Among the people that also consume other media, it was like 70%, right? So, you know, you can see just how much of it is a media. Yeah, I mean, some of this is chicken and egg,

but how much of the media drives this. So, I mean, it seems to me like your effort to do an X and to get with Elon, I've listened to some of your other interviews, was like your effort to do an x and to get with elon i've listened to some of your other interviews was like some attempt to break that bubble is that right what are your thoughts on that before we get into the details of the elon interview like the biggest picture how do you break into that bubble do you have thoughts on that you have to be willing to go into the lion's den and not many people are willing to do that i am you know i see pete

budaj doing it all the time. I even see Chris Christie doing it, you know, going on. Of course, he's running for office. So he's going on to speak to Democrats, what have you. And I think he's like becoming part of no labels now. So we'll see where that goes. Unless you go into the lion's den and be willing to get slaughtered as I was, then you're not going to reach those people.

We'll go in depth about Elon a little bit later, I'm sure. But even Elon admitted that he hadn't really watched me on CNN. Basically, his idea of who I was, was watching me on probably Fox or on conservative networks. And it's just soundbites of me where I'm a character or is a caricature of Don Lemon. But the interesting thing is, is that when you go in to try to reach those folks, they don't want to hear what you have to say. And if you hold up a mirror to them and you hold up facts to them, they're like, whoa, wait, wait, you're a liar. What are you doing? Yeah, it's a fake news. And so it's like, well, maybe we're in an era now where it's just,

maybe it's just not possible. I don't know. But know but i mean what you're saying think about what you're saying 100 of the people who hear donald charlison just just to conservative media they love him and then what did you say it was like 70 so yeah and if we could take off 30 of those other people that's that's a we're in a much better situation right like you know what i mean yeah what i'm just saying though is that the their minds are made up it's a fait accompli yeah on the other end you know i have never seen so many people who are so over represented in polling and everyone's like oh we need to hear from the people what do they think we hear from them all the time like every single poll that we get there this is what maga thinks every single focus group that we do, this is every single, you know, group thing that we go to get opinions. It's always the MAGA people. They're overrepresented. So how much more do we need to know about them? It tells you exactly how they feel. Whatever Donald Trump wants, that's what they do. Do you ever watch those little skits at the top of the Jimmy Kimmel show where they'll ask people? I've seen the Jordan Klepper versions of these. I top of the Jimmy Kimmel show where they'll ask people. I've seen the

Jordan Klepper versions of these. I don't watch Jimmy Kimmel. Okay. There are different versions of these, but the ones I find the most effective is that they ask the people the same questions about Joe Biden. Like they'll use what Donald Trump has done, right? They'll say, can you believe, you know, Joe Biden paid off a porn star and hid it from his wife while she was pregnant? They'll go, oh, my God, it's so horrible. And then they'll, you know, ask a couple of those questions and they go back and go, I'm sorry, I got my research wrong. I met Donald Trump on all those questions. And then they'll ask the question using Donald Trump and they will make an excuse for him. And so I just don't think it's a winnable situation right now.

I think those people have made up their minds. It's very cult like. It is. One more on this. I'm also willing to go into the lion's den and by the way i know that there's some secret maggots that listen to this and so i'm you can invite me i'll go i'll go and do i'll go fight with same here i'll go fight with these people i'm happy to fight with a daily wire person or with a four poor candace is going to need guests for her new show now that she's been canceled from the daily wire right so i'm happy to go talk to free speech for me but not for the candace john in fairness she did 57 anti-semitic statements

before ben finally hired her you know he has a very strict rule you know you can only do blood libel against jews like 82 times before he says no more i will go in but i find i don't mind going into the mega to whatever i just don't mind going into the MAGA, to whatever. I just don't like, you know, it gets personal sometimes. They start taking personal things like, oh, you know, you're gay. And you're like, what does that have to do with anything? You know what I mean? So I've been dying to, I'm curious your take on this, though.

So then is there a line to that, too, going to the Lions then? So your old colleague Chris Cuomo went on Tucker. I watched it. I have to say, I don't recommend anybody go to Tucker's platform that's not comfortable because he literally promotes white nationalist thought and surrogates. But it was a fascinating show. But I just, I was sitting there going, I don't know. It was different than you and the Elon thing, because in the you and Elon thing, you're

conducting the interview. And Chris went and did the interview with Tucker. I don't know. What do you, what did you think about that? I didn't watch it. I have just a little bit texted with Tucker. Look, I don't have anything against Tucker. I don't really know him that well. Well, the white nationalism, I assume you don't like. Yes. Yes. That was getting to that. The things that come out of his mouth, I don't agree with. I find most of them reprehensible. I think the only communication

that I've had with him is, you know, we got let go of the network on the same day. How odd that is. Sort of ha ha ha. What an interesting, you know, how the world works. And he wanted me to come on his show. And I said, you know, let me figure out what I'm going to do. I don't mind going into the lion's den. And what else?

He said, welcome to X when I agreed to be a distribution partner with them. And that was about it just a couple of times. So, you know, I don't have anything against him. I don't agree with anything he says, pretty much. But you thought about it. You thought about going on the show. Are you still thinking about it? I did. I thought about going on the show. I actually thought about doing things with him, like, you know, sort of a Buckley and Baldwin. And I was like, you know, that would be great for Tucker and I to do that if he could really do it from a place where we're trying to educate people instead of beating up on each other, where he's actually trying to learn about me and I'm trying to learn about him, which was my attitude going into the Elon thing. But I didn't watch the Tucker thing with Chris.

I feel that when you have these sort of, let's say, meetings of the mind, or you have these sort of Titan clashes, whatever you want to call them. That's very generous to Tucker. There are things you have to get off your chest first. Yeah. Because then you're not being honest with your audience and you're not being honest with yourself. You're not being honest with his audience and him. You said this.

I found this offensive. Or even if you just, you know, say, why would you say something like this? Why do you believe this? And I would expect the same thing from Tucker or whomever, even if Elon was interviewing me, I would expect that I would have to answer questions about what I've said, what I've done, what I've put out there. And if I can't defend myself in the moment for something that came out of my own mouth, then who am I? What am I? You know what I'm saying? It can't just be nicey nice that's not real that was my issue was it nicey nice that was a little joshy and i texted chris about this i'm

not doing anything that's illegal i was like yeah i wish you would have went at him a little more and and i think his perspective was like well i wanted to kind of draw it out and have a real conversation and maybe that's just not my makeup i don't know i'm happy to go into the lion's den but i'm gonna roar yeah same okay i'm not going into the lion's den and doing this like oh well we both have kids and that's nice and it's like yeah i guess we both have kids but you're the one that is you know doing apologia and promoting january 6 terrorists who attacked the capitol and white replacement theory and so i we're not friends actually yeah the great replacement theory and you don't understand how the great replacement theory is really sort of a it was a jewish trope and then you're using it now as for

democrats to say that same thing are happening with like with what you call latino invasion or hispanic invasion like it's like but they can't answer for that and and even what with elon about duke university and dei again we'll get into that but i would i would go on to talk or i think i would consider going on to talk her and i would go the lion's den. I think we should all welcome that. I think Tucker might be too bad faith for it. I think he might be as demonstrated over time that he's not actually trying to have a genuine conversation. You know what I mean? That would have to be the agreement for with me and with him. And if it turns out to not be that, then I think we would end it. But Kara Swisher,

as you know, has the same feeling as you do about that. Kara and I have this conversation all the time. We had it this summer when I was trying to figure it out. I said, people trying to get me to work with Tucker, where they want us to do events, a whole host of things. And she said she doesn't believe, she believes it's bad faith and he's too toxic in that it would rub off on me. That's what she said. He would get more purchase out of it than I would. That's what she says. I don't know if I agree with that about the Elon Convo. I might be on your side of it because of the nature of the conversation. But since you mentioned it, let's listen to your exchange with him about the Great Replacement Theory.

The Great Replacement Theory is a neo-Nazi trope. It's in the neo-Nazi manifesto. It's in the Turner Diaries. It's referenced by the Buffalo Mass Shooter and his manifesto where 10 people, black people, were murdered in Buffalo. His actual title is the Christ Church Shooters Manifesto. 51 people in the Muslim mosque were murdered, 23 people murdered in El Paso by a shooter who used the same language that you use in that manifesto when you say Hispanic invasion. Is that not... I didn't say Hispanic invasion. You tweeted, you quoted a tweet that said, that called it a Hispanic invasion.

If I quote something, it doesn't mean I agree with anything, everything in it. It's just something that I want, I think this is something worth people should consider. Oh, I just think people should consider that we're being invaded. I don't actually agree. I'm just asking questions.

Yeah, this was my i thought it was a great interview i think people should watch it uh you know obviously people you catch the clips on twitter i saw on x whatever i went back and re-watched the whole thing last night and as a full hour i kind of recommend it because you can see him getting more and more agitated over time and like it was at that moment was the moment where i was the most whined to yell through the computer you know when you're watching an, you're yelling through the computer. It's like, no, you're not just wanting people to consider it. You're promoting this.

You have the biggest platform in the world. And it would be insane to think that the Sulzberger publisher would put something that he isn't sure is true that he just wants people to consider on the front page of the New York Times and just be like, consider we're being invaded. Arthur Sulzberger's idea at 3 a.m. when he's on ketamine, like you have an obligation. And he just doesn't seem to take that obligation seriously at all. And was that your takeaway, basically? He doesn't believe he has an obligation. He doesn't. He thinks that it's this weird sort of hybrid wild, wild west, but maybe we have some content moderation rules. I don't know. It was shocking to me that he, in my estimation, didn't think that he had any responsibility for the truth, any responsibility for facts, any responsibility for hate speech, any responsibility at all to sort of moderate the platform. And as you said, you talk about

Sulzberger. And back to the Tucker conversation. Tucker's a big figure, but Elon Musk is a bigger figure. He's really too big to ignore. He's too important to ignore. He's kind of Henry Ford meets Rupert Murdoch meets Howard Hughes meets John Rockefeller. And he's done some extremely impressive and innovative things, but he is also very, very, very dangerous. And I think, unfortunately for him, when presented with the evidence of what he has done and what he's doing, it's shocking to him because he can't explain it. He's not very good in person with people who are holding him accountable. They couldn't look you in the eye. No. And he became increasingly uncomfortable

and tense over the conversation because I was just, Tim, the questions were not hard. I mean, come on. No, I mean, honestly, I had a couple notes for you. I was sitting there watching. I was like, come on, Don, like stick it to him. But that was, before I get too far off,

you know, off track of whatever the point I was making, that was intentional i wanted very simple questions i didn't want people to think i was attacking him i wanted people to get to know about him and get to know about me and the questions were where's the piece of paper um why did you say this quote these are your own words i didn't say that and you're like well i mean he didn't quite do it that way but i I never said, yes, you did. Where's the evidence of this? Well, people in the, in the comment section will put it. And I was like, well, that's really not an answer. The point I was making is that man to man, he's this very important, you know,

gazillionaire who talks shit about me all the time. But yet, face to face, when I was this far from him as I am to this camera, he could not tell me how he felt about me. He couldn't defend himself. But afterwards, he goes on to Twitter and encourages his, you know, apologist to attack me. He is a keyboard warrior. He is an internet troll now. And he is afraid to confront me or talk to me man to man. He could have said whatever he wanted to say to me man to man, instead of running away saying, oh, I have a meeting or going back behind his keyboard where he has keyboard courage and not courage in person to get people to attack me or to attack me myself or by saying, well, it turns out this isn't what I want. I'm taking my marbles and I'm going home. Right? If you are that strong of a person and you're that important, why not say,

hey, man, I didn't agree with Don Lemon, but this is why I have him on the platform, because we need to hear all voices in that interview. If he felt that way, it wasn't. I felt like he was attacking me. OK, that's how I came away from it. But still, we need to have these conversations that he doesn't have the EQ for that and he doesn't like to be confronted. And I think it's very obvious. I'm shocked that so many people are defending him. No. And he doesn't want to have conversations he doesn't right like he doesn't he wants to shit post and he doesn't want people to criticize him and and it's obvious that twitter is throttling criticisms of elon and tesla and all that he says he's for free speech and it's like well you know and it's obvious they're doing these things and they're what do you call it

shadow banning people and throttling meaning they they are suppressing content. And I mean, it just went on my thing. I was like, look, I have no, I can never prove it. I'm sure if I looked at their analytics and maybe they could, I'm sure they were throttling my stuff afterwards because he just probably didn't want to see it on his site. My friend said, that's what I would do. Why'd you stay on? I'm still on too. I get, people get mad at me, but I want to know what you're on. Well, I'm on now because again, I want people to, I'm not afraid to be on it. I don't have to promote it. You know, if, if I don't want to.

You don't worry that like lend your credibility to him or whatever, or that you're by being on, you're helping him maintain some influence over this town square. And if we like put them into some MAGA ghetto of weirdos and freaks, then they wouldn't have as much influence. If everybody left. Like that would be the counter argument. Well, listen, people can feel that way if they want. The reason I went into it is because it's a big platform. It's and people are still on it like you and like me. Although I went back to it because of this, I'd stopped posting or paying attention to it. But I think it's huge. It is too big and too important of a platform to cede it to extremists. But it appears that's what it's becoming. And I

think it's unless he changes course and unless he starts to listen to people like me and people like you, and he starts to not throttle our stuff and to really engage with people like us, then it's just going to become a platform just for extremists and election deniers and MAGA. And really, it's just going to be and people who just pat Elon Musk on the back and, you know, go, oh, you're so great. I love you so much. So why am I on it?

I'm on it, you know, one, because I want people to know that I lived up to my side of the bargain and I'm still living up to it. I also think people don't understand there. It's not as if it's not as black and white, you know, it's not like there's only people that are totally Elon minions or people that are repulsed by them. There are persuadable people out there and it's important that they hear from other voices besides Elon's, you know, I just is. It's true. Listen, I don't, again, I have nothing against Elon Musk except the stuff that he puts out there and which I asked him about, which I questioned him about, and he couldn't answer for a lot of it or his answers, okay, it's for depression. People do it. I've had drug guided therapy before. I have suffered from depression. I am on SSRIs. So look, those things I thought were interesting. And that was a meeting of the minds. And there were other

things that we discussed and other answers that he had that I thought were completely fine. And they may not have been what, you know, something that I agreed with, but okay, I get it. That's your conservative, you're libertarian or whatever it is you say you are, and that's how you feel. But I just think, Tim, when people say they want us on those platforms and they want to hear from people with diverse opinions, I think that they're in such echo chambers, and this kind of goes back to cable news or whatever, they're in such echo chambers that when they actually hear the other side and they hear truth and facts, it is just so anathema to them that they're like, wait, what? And they automatically think that you're lying or you have an agenda just because, and that's not necessarily. So it's just

that they're used to people feeding them the line all the time and agreeing with their world perspective and their point of view so much that when they hear another one, it just freaks them out. And I think that's what happened with Elon. All right. A few other just topics. I just want to get your real quick thoughts on things that I've thought, like, I want to know what Don Lemon thinks about this. The data around the fact that Joe Biden and Democrats are losing altitude with Black voters, that Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is pulling pretty altitude with black voters, that Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is pulling pretty well with black voters, younger black voters are upset about

that. What do you attribute it to? What do I attribute that to? I attribute it to that people feel that, again, that they're not being heard. They feel that people, and I'm speaking in general, not just for Joe Biden, and I'll get more specific in a second, that people say things when they are running for office or they go into a black diner or whatever restaurant when they're running for office, and then I never really hear from you again. I'm not saying that's the case with Joe Biden or Kamala Harris, because I actually think that they're doing things that do affect people of color and do help people of color, especially if you look at just household income and wealth,

inequality in this country, and it's usually minorities, especially people of color who are at the bottom. So I think they're helping with that when it comes to student loans, et cetera. But I just think that when you're in office and you know it's a limited amount of time, even like President Obama, when you say, I'm not the president of black America, not you say, you know, I'm not the president of black America, not the president of white America, I'm the president of America. That's true. That is true.

But you have to understand that not everyone has had a fair shake in America. And if you are in a position to help those in a very limited amount of time to help the people who are the underserved communities in this country, time is running out. Time's a wasting, then you need to do it and not, you know, try to be so, well, I'm not the president of black America, white America, Hispanic America, gay America, straight America. Yes. But in that America, you know, what's up. And especially if you are a Democrat and you're progressive, you know, what's up when it comes to underserved communities. So I really do think that's it. And I also think that the Democrats, just quite frankly, you know, the economy's, we're doing well. We have the best economy in the world. Their messaging is just not

good. They're not good at politicking. Republicans are very good at, you know, picking slogans and messaging and politicking. They play the long game. Look at what happened with Roe, right? Look at what happened with the Supreme Court. If Democrats would just do that and not be so afraid of criticism and not be afraid, not allow their detractors and their opponents to define them. And that happened a lot for me when I was working in news broadcasts and cable. Oh my gosh, people are going to think that we are conservative or liberal. People are going to, who gives a fuck. As long as you're doing the right thing.

Why do you care what your enemy or with someone who doesn't like you? Why do you care what they say about you? Why do you care what someone who is never going to write something or say something in the media kindly about you or in your favor, even if you're doing a good job? Why do you care about what they think and say? Just do you. So I wish Democrats, who I think at the moment is the only party who's really looking out for the country. I'm not saying they're doing everything

right. But if you look at conservatives, look at what's happening with the House, with Kevin McCarthy and Johnson, they're trying to oust him. They're in chaos and they're actually not trying to help people. So Democrats, continue on trying to keep democracy intact. Forget about what your opponents are thinking and saying about you and just do your thing. Have some guts like Republicans do. Go in, go hard and just get it done. You're only in office for a limited amount of time and you're only in office at the will of the people and the people can vote you out at any moment. So while you're there, don't waste it. I totally agree with that. I want to throw one of the things that kind of

across sex, your identities on this question. Some people would say, I want to be careful about how I say this, but I think it's important conversation to have. What I'm not saying is that like the black community is more disproportionately homophobic or whatever, but some people I think point out that Donald Trump is doing better with young black men who maybe have less educational attainment, who don't really love kind of the feminization, the LGBTization of culture. They think that the Democratic Party, you know, doesn't really represent them as well. Do you think that there's a cultural element to this, that Donald Trump is kind of appealing to younger black men on that, on those grounds or not really? I would say stay tuned to the Don Lemon show for Monday because I spoke to D.L. Hughley and we talked about this and

he has a very good answer. His answer is better than mine. This was an unintentional promo, by the way, and I've been trying to get D.L. Hewley on, too. So great. I'm excited to watch that. You said D.L. is great. You know, he sort of relates it to especially about black men being attracted to Donald Trump and the MAGA movement. He said, you know, it's kind of like it's kind of like rap music. You know, all that shit.

He goes, the airplanes and the money you see in the rap videos, he says, rap videos. You know, it's not real. And it's the same thing for the MAGA people. It's the same thing for Donald Trump. It's all a facade. It's all not real. And it's the same thing for the MAGA people. It's the same thing for Donald Trump. It's all a facade. It's all a lie and it's fake. So I think that's just the entertainment aspect of it. You know, he stands up for people. He's a badass. He's got a lot of money. He's got a plane, he's got gold, whatever that that's appealing to a certain demographic of black men. But I also think that honestly, there are black conservatives. You know, I think black people are

conservative socially, at least where I, you know, grew up in Louisiana, and most black people are from the South. The majority of African Americans live in the South. The South is very red. They're very churchgoing and religious. And I think that has a lot to do with it. But I really don't think that there is a big enough contingent of African-American men or black men that's going to change anything in the polling. So, you know, I think this polling about losing, you know, black men to MAGA, I think that's sort of that's overstated. But I do think it's enough of a concern that Democrats should be worried about it and why they're not appealing to those people. Part of it is just, as I said, just messaging. And that's just, you know, it's great to to be that Democrats should be worried about it and why they're not appealing to those people. Part of it is just, as I said,

just messaging. And that's just, you know, it's great to, to be rich and do all those things. That's why they appeal to MAGA. But I think conservatives in some sense do appeal to the conservative nature of African-Americans socially.

And I think that Democrats should think about that. I do think so too. This is something I say, like, if you look at polls, by the way, like 20% of Democrats is going down. Maybe it's like in the teens now are like pro-life religious.

A lot of them are black folks. And like, they do not exist in media. Like that person does not exist in the media at all. And it's like a fifth of the Democratic Party. So I do think that there are ways that Democrats could speak to them. Okay. Also, I have a book. I have a book on religion coming out.

And I explained some of that stuff, too. Oh, really? What is it? Another promo. It's called, um, I once was lost my search for God in America. Did you find him? He came out after the election and I think I actually did find him. Well, we're going to have to do that again next year. We can do all God. We're just going to do God and Louisiana and gay stuff the next time. Just sort of the intersection. But if we leave, there's some drama. No, no, I got it. God's gays and gum i got it god's gaze and gumbo god's gaze and gumbo boom 2025 hopefully we still have a democracy then you can be back we can do a whole episode on that um all right but i have to we have to leave so kim mulkey people don't know

she's the coach of the lsu women's basketball team she went on a rant this week there's apparently a washington post article coming out about her and i I want to know if you struggle with this like me, because in some ways, she's like a gay icon. She's fabulous. Her outfits, you know, like she's out there playing and she's coaching these young black women. And I was watching this press conference and it's like Flage Johnson and Angel Reese are like playing their singles for her and they seem to be having a good time. So that's the one side of Kim Mulkey that makes me and I know this kind of woman in louisiana you know sort of a older culturally conservative woman but it's still really in touch but still like likes gays and black you know what i mean just she doesn't seem to me like she's like a hateful person on the other hand seems

like she was pretty mean to britney griner i don't know what's going to come out in this story seems like she obviously has some also some demons i don't know kim mulkey i need to know what don lemon thinks about kim mulkey well i don't know what's going to come out in the story but she's threatening to sue the washington post right and so i just remember and i'm sure you can relate when i you know i came out god more than a decade ago and i think the only people who were out in media were racheldow and Thomas Roberts. At least, you know, people who were, who people knew are on television. You beat Anderson? I need to have my gay time.

Yeah, yeah, I did. I mean, not long, not by much, but I think like a year or so. Yeah. So I think, you know, they come from that era, as you said, and I'm not making any excuses because people told me, you know, I wouldn't do it. You're going to be known as the gay anchor. People don't need to know about your sexuality and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So there was a time when I understood why people were saying that, even though that wasn't my belief. And finally, I just said, as a journalist, I'll get back to

Kim and sports, whatever. As a journalist, I have to have the same standards for myself that I have for people. So I can't expect to question people and have them come on and say, you need to be transparent. You need to tell me the truth about what you're doing and what you're saying, whatever, when I was hiding something. Now, look, people can feel the way that they feel. I think that if you are a person who has a platform now and you're not out, then you're not doing it right. I mean, why are you afraid and why are you hiding?

And I know people say it's nobody's business, but I think there's deception and silence. Okay. Is it by far the best decision I ever made for my psychology? I say that to anybody that ever asked me best decision I ever made. And then my husband and my people get like, what about your kid? And I'm like, well, my kid happened because I did that thing first, right? Like all the good stuff that happened for me came from that decision. So totally. People go through all these mental gymnastics in their head. They're like, why do people need to know? And I'm like, well, if someone said, do you have kids?

You go, well, that's none of your business. If someone says, do you have a wife? That's none of your business. I say, well, then the only reason you're hiding it is because you think there's wrong or it's going to hurt you in some way. Amen. And so anyways, so I can understand maybe years ago getting that, you know, advice from the coach.

I know I can understand why she said it, but in this and age and especially in sports it's a whole different thing just for context she was telling britney griner who not to come out not to come out when that when she was coaching her at baylor not to talk about her sexuality or what not to talk about it yeah again i don't know the specifics behind what they're going to write so i'll give her a little leeway right now but But I think in this day and age to tell someone not to come out and not to talk about their sexuality is doing an injustice, not only to the world, which can benefit from that, but especially to the person who is gay or, you know, lesbian or bisexual or what have you, I think it doesn't help

them and can ultimately lead to some really bad things by suppressing who and what they are. Amen. I agree with that. I don't know what will happen. I hope for the young women, for Angel and Flange, I hope that those LSU Tigers keep on winning and we'll see what happens with the Washington Post story. And if you have a name like Flange, just be fabulous. Just be her.

I know, right? She's my favorite. Okay. Don Lemon, thanks so. I love her. Just be fabulous. Just be you. I know, right? She's my favorite. Okay. Don Lemon, thanks so much. Go Tigers. Fellow Louisianan. I'm not really Louisianan. I'm adopted.

Are you native? You're native? Where are you born? Baton Rouge? Who dat? Who dat? I was born at Baton Rouge General Hospital. Baton Rouge General Hospital.

Shout out to BR General. We'll do this next year. God's Gaze and Gumbo. Thank you, Don Lemon, for coming on the Bullard Podcast. We'll talk to you soon. Tim, it's a pleasure and sorry about the comedy of errors in the beginning.

No, baby, all good. All good. See you later. See you later. Bye. She takes the rhythm, take it how she wanna And she want it, want it And she want it, want it And she want it, want it Get her money, get her money

Get her from her mama She outweighed her shutters She takes the rhythm, take it how she wanna And she want it, want it And she want it, want it And she want it, want it Break it down, pass it on the pole Money on the floor, pass it on the pole, money on the floor

Come on, oh my God, come on, oh my God Is it money, money? Is it money, money? Break it down, pass it on the pole, money on the floor Come on, oh my God, come on, oh my God Is it money, money? Is it what it, what it? She said she loved me like she loved the Lord When I'm in that pussy, I'm above the law If I had the world, I'd sue it and get off

A thousand new reasons not to get involved I'ma call my ex and say I love her in the past Drinking from a bottle, she annoyed me like a bastard Triple-winged angel, did you turn me to a bastard? Devil do her favors, dabbing milk on other eyes Break it down, pass it on the pole Money on the floor, come on home Come on home, come on home

Break it down, pass it on the pole The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brough.