The Bulwark Podcast - Gov. Josh Shapiro: We Can Do Big Things

Episode Date: May 2, 2024

The governor of Pennsylvania, Josh Shapiro, sits down with Tim Miller in Philly to talk about the kind of language that wins over voters, the campus protests, finding the sweet spot on public safety and crime, and getting sh*t done. show note: This interview was recorded late Wednesday afternoon.

Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. I'm here today. We're in a different location. I don't know if you can tell. We're in Philly. I'm with Governor Josh Shapiro. Good to be with you. Governor of Pennsylvania. I got to tell you something. I got in early last night. I was away from my child, so free night. So I walked. So you just wandered in circles i walked a mile throughout philly i watched a movie by myself walked another mile late at night i saw there was no carnage yeah i was not i was not menaced yeah i was not worried there was a little i smelled a little pot uh there was one group of wild fanatics and i was a little concerned about

that but it turned out just to be the end of the sixers next game how about that game great you see maxi drain that yeah i literally walked up to a group. I was like, what's happening? I walked up and watched the Maxie shot. It was sick. Unbelievable. So what's the deal? I've heard it was American carnage here. Donald Trump says, you know, we need to send in the National Guard. It seems like it's going all right. I think Donald Trump has historically tried to score points on attacking people and creating others. And in this case, attacking the great city of Philadelphia. And certainly we have our challenges as every place

in America does, and we got to work through them. And we got to be diligent about our focus on trying to fix these problems as opposed to attacking people. And we focus on getting shit done in Pennsylvania and common sense solutions, bring Republicans and Democrats together, not attacking people, not creating others the way Donald Trump does. Yeah. So you're up in, uh, I'm going to pronounce it wrong. Wilkes bar. Wilkes bear. Wilkes bear. In Luzerne County.

Luzerne County. I would have had Luzerne right. Other side of the state today. Kind of talking about this sort of stuff, public safety, crime. And the main, I think you tell me message was we have more money for police. We also got to have fewer guns. That feels like a sweet spot to me argument. It's like a 90s democratic argument you don't hear a lot about. But is that how you'd sum it up? I mean, it's common sense, right? Focus on investing in law enforcement. It's something, you know, look, I used to be the state's attorney general. We arrested over 8,000 drug dealers, took over 300 crime guns off our streets,

put a lot of folks behind bars who were wreaking havoc on our communities. I think you need a good, strong, tough, well-resourced law enforcement in order to help make our communities safe. And we've done that. 400 new state troopers, a whole bunch of other stuff that we've done during my time as governor. But you can't only focus on it from a law enforcement perspective. You've also got to invest in communities and deal with the issues that lead people to turn to violence or turn to criminal activity. And then, you know, third, you got to change your laws when it comes to guns. And I've got a pretty, I think, common sense approach. We have laws in this country and in this commonwealth that say criminals can't possess firearms. We have, I think common sense would dictate that someone who is a juvenile who can't legally possess a gun shouldn't be getting their hands on them. So why not just

have universal background checks? It's a bill that passed in the House. It's sitting over in the Senate. It's something I'm for. So we can invest in law enforcement. We can invest in the community and we can keep guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't legally have them. And that all together will help us make our community safer. Do you feel like you've had some pushback on that on the law enforcement side of things? You know, and you can't, you're coming into office, you were already attorney general during all the Black Lives Matter and the unrest after George Floyd. And I think there was a lot of activists on the left in particular who were arguing that maybe we should take some of the tools away from police officers, not let that focus on targeting bad cops. How do you kind of balance that push from activists? What I just said to you about investing

in law enforcement in the community, I said that in the hours after George Floyd. I'll tell you, we're in Philadelphia here. And I remember as attorney general looking out my window in the days after the killing of George Floyd, and people were peacefully and righteously protesting and walking down, marching down the street. And I was glad that they were out there. But a small group of them began to talk about defunding the police. And I was asked in those immediate days in the aftermath of the killing of George Floyd, do you agree that we should defund the police? I said, listen, if you want to bring the police and the community closer together,

we have to invest more in policing, have more police, make sure they are properly trained, make sure they look like the communities they are sworn to protect, make sure we're also investing in the community to lift them up, whether it's long-term investments like education, economic development, or more short-term like violence prevention. But the answer is not to defund the police. The answer is to fund it and fund it in a smart, wise way. And look, I got some political heat on that or flack or whatever you want to call it in those days and months thereafter, but I stuck to my guns because I thought that was the right thing to do. When I ran for governor, I ran on a platform of investing

more in public safety. And that's exactly what I've done as governor. And I think universally, that is something that is accepted. All right. So related to questions of policing, you told Jake Tapper, you were with him about a week ago, and you said that you want to restore order on campus in response to what's happening in Columbia and some schools here, all across the country. We've seen some of the efforts to restore order on campus over the past few days, Columbia and Wash U, and some people have, you know, some felt like maybe a little overkill in some of the actions, maybe not. Others have been cheering the ways that the, you know, police and law enforcement have kind of cleared some of these protests. What do you think? How do you kind of balance that, giving people a right to protest and making sure the rules are followed with not doing overkill?

I don't know. Some of these kids, I'm watching them on campus, like eating their tofu in the keffiyehs. And I was like, did we really need the riot gear for this? Like, I don't know. Some of these kids, I'm watching them on campus, like eating their tofu in the keffiyehs. And I was like, did we really need the riot gear for this? Like, I don't know. Yeah, look, I think the universities and the rest of what I said in that is the universities have a responsibility to make sure that students on their campus are following the rules of their campus and that those who would come in from the outside, assuming they are permitted to be there, are also following the rules. And by establishing these encampments, by breaking some of the rules of order on campuses, university administrators lost control. At the same time, the rules of the local city or county or state were also being violated. And at some point, we have to say people have a right to peacefully protest.

And by the way, there's a ton of nuance when it comes to the policies in the Middle East. People should be heard on that. But you've got to follow the rules. You've got to make sure there's order. And you also can't make certain students feel unsafe or discriminated against on campus. Meaning these protesters can't use their disagreement on Mideast policy as an excuse for anti-Semitism or Islamophobia, and then make other students be unsafe or be discriminated. That is not only against most state laws, that's against federal law as well.

And so the point I made to Jake and the point I'm making to you is these leaders, whether it's a university president or in the case that involves a municipality, the mayor or whoever, they have a responsibility to enforce the law and they have a responsibility to make sure there is order on campus. They have a responsibility to make sure their students are free from discrimination. Yeah. But maybe you could have mediated it. Could you mediate it without the guys looking like they're going into Fallujah? Yeah. Well, look, it's hard for me to second guess the decision of the mayor of New York sitting here as the governor of Pennsylvania to, you know, send in the police as they did in New York or what happened last night at UCLA. It's hard to know exactly what intel they had on the ground what they feared what they thought that

you know the folks in those encampments had in terms of weaponry what's becoming clearer and clearer every day is that there are a whole lot of people from the outside that have infiltrated what began as peaceful student protests and those on the outside i guess they you know they feared that they might be able to create some danger. Yeah. On the other side of that, you mentioned the anti-Semitism. You're talking about it. You're Jewish.

I had lunch today with a college buddy whose kids are going to go to a school where your kids go to school, actually. They're very excited about all the extra security that they get because of the governor. But I guess apparently there was a swastika was painted on the school or the synagogue next to it. No, on the synagogue nearby school or the synagogue nearby. Is there concerns about that? I think that the students, I talked to a young woman who listens to the bulwark who is at UCLA, who's Jewish, who was menaced on campus by some of these protesters. Her experience was scary. And I think there's a lot of feeling that sometimes some of the Democratic leaders, maybe present company and maybe Fetterman, maybe your colleague, excepted, have not spoken out on this as forcefully as they might have if it was another marginalized group that was being menaced and shouted down and discriminated against. What do you think about that?

Do you feel like it's incumbent more? Would you like to hear more from your fellow Democratic leaders on that? I think all leaders, Democrat and Republican. Yeah, we just have higher expectations for the Democrats. No, no, no. We're grading you on a curve. I understand your point. I think leaders have a responsibility to speak and act with moral clarity.

And I recognize if you're a governor, you're a senator, you can't possibly weigh in on every single issue that comes up. But you've got to make sure you lean in at the important moments and use your voice. Look, when an angry mob showed up at a restaurant here in Philadelphia, owned by a Jewish person, after saying they wanted to boycott it simply because the owner is Jewish, I spoke out against that. And I talked about how that's akin to what we saw in 1930s Germany, restaurants being protested or boycotted simply because the owner is Jewish. And you know, my wife and I showed up

the next day and ordered some great falafel and made sure the community understood that we stood with them. When a Muslim American from here in Pennsylvania, this is in Harrisburg, was threatened on the steps of the state capitol because they had just come from a rally where they were rallying on behalf of Palestinian rights. And by the way, saying some things I fundamentally disagreed with, but then when the rally was over and they got to the bottom of the steps, someone stopped and made terroristic threats in their face. I made sure that we spoke out about that too. I share both of those examples, and there are many more, because I do think leaders in these moments have a responsibility always, but particularly in

these moments, have a responsibility to speak and act with moral clarity. You shouldn't have to go through some political litmus test to determine whether or not you should speak out. And if there are people, Democrats, Republicans, anybody, who are pulling punches because they're worried about the politics or worried about some standing in the polls or whatever, at a moment where our fellow Americans are being threatened because of who they worship to, that's unacceptable. We need to respect all people, no matter what they look like, where they come from, who they love, who they pray to, or choose not to pray to. And when we choose to allow a particular type of person or group be targeted, it makes us all less safe. So whatever short-term

political points someone is scoring by not standing up and speaking out, in the long term, they're doing real damage to this country. How worried are you about the campus life for Jewish kids right now? I mean, how big do you think the threat is? You have some people out there that say maybe it's overstated. Maybe people are being a little too sensitive. I don't feel that way. I mean, the data suggests that anti-Semitic incidents, and by the way, hate against Muslim Americans,

Islamophobia, both are on the rise. I think the anti-Semitism numbers are off the charts, about 250% increase in Pennsylvania alone, on campuses and off campuses. And I'm very alarmed by that. When you're attacking a fellow Pennsylvanian because of who they worship to, that makes us all less safe. And I think it's really important to note the whole premise on the founding of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania by William Penn was to create a place that was going to be open to people of all faiths, a place that would be tolerant. And so I feel a special

responsibility, a unique responsibility, not just as an American Jew occupying this important office, but literally as descendant of the job that William Penn once had to continue to further his goal of creating a place that is peaceful and tolerant. And right now we're seeing this rise in hate speech that is anything but peaceful and tolerant. I want to go to a different kind of group in the state that you've been reaching out to. Another group that a lot of people sometimes think that Democrats sometimes leave behind is rural Americans, rural whites mostly, but they're obviously not just they're rural non-whites, of course, too. You spent a lot of time out there with them. You know,

I mean, Selena Zito, who's kind of MAGA adjacent, not always on the same wavelength. She spends a lot of time out there, too. Not always on the same wavelength as some of the Bulwark crowd, but to her credit, she has been straight with us and said, look, you know, you've been going to areas where a lot of Democrats haven't gone in Pennsylvania. As a result, you ended up winning by 15 points. So I assume then that you've met some Shapiro Trump voters out there. Yeah. I just kind of wonder what what your message is to them, what you're hearing from them and what you're kind of hearing when you're out outside of the traditional Democratic power centers. Look, I show up everywhere.

And I want to be a governor for all Pennsylvanians. And I mean that. You can't just be a governor for all Pennsylvanians and not show up in our rural communities or not show up in a county that didn't vote for you. And so I make a point every single week of getting out in those areas and listening to people and most importantly, treating people with respect,

whether they voted for me or not. I think you have to show up. I think you have to bring real solutions to their challenges. And while they may have a different view on who should be the president of the United States, and I'm certainly going to make my political pitch as to why they should consider voting for Joe Biden, I don't think you can just dismiss people because they've got a different worldview than you, a different political view, or a different choice of who should be president. You know, I earned in the governor's race,

I earned more votes than anybody in the history of Pennsylvania running for governor. I don't say that to pat myself on the back. I say that because the data shows that we got a whole lot of votes in these rural communities that historically did not vote for Democrats. Why do you think that is?

I mean, showing up is nice, but you had to, did you promise them anything? Was it a policy thing? I delivered for them as Attorney General in, you know, the relatively limited way an Attorney General can. I had real plans on how to deliver for them as governor, which, by the way, I have delivered on many of them already in just a year. Like such as? Shoot me a couple. I told them a lot of seniors are struggling in these rural communities. And I said, we need to give seniors a tax cut. And after 20 years of trying, I finally got it done. And by the way, I am the only governor in the country with a divided legislature. I brought Republicans

and Democrats together to cut taxes for seniors. Another issue that's huge in rural communities across Pennsylvania is agriculture. And agriculture has always taken a backseat when it comes to economic development and growth to our suburban office parks or our downtowns. And I made agriculture a centerpiece of our economic development and economic growth strategy, creating jobs in these communities again, making sure we're driving resources out. We've got 276,000 homes and businesses in rural communities without high-speed internet. Thanks to President Biden and the dollars that are coming from the federal government, we're going to connect every one of them to the internet over the course of the next four or five years. This is real, tangible stuff, commitments we made and commitments we're delivering on.

What about the federal stuff? One thing I think that there's some frustration out there is you mentioned broadband. There's others going into these communities, infrastructure from chips, from the IRA. Yeah. There's a feeling that there's a disconnect. People in these communities don't even know that Biden did that. Talk about that a little bit. Because of what you just said. You used three words that nobody knows what the hell they mean.

You said broadband, IRA, and what was the other thing you said? It's all like nobody knows what that is. Yeah, nobody knows what that is. You're not talking regular words, regular language. And that is, we have got communities right now because the investments the president made who are going to get high-speed affordable internet. I got folks in a community outside Pittsburgh, predominantly African-American community. Their kids have literally been drinking water out of the pipes for generations, full of lead. Those pipes are being replaced thanks to President Biden's investments there and the good work we're doing here in Pennsylvania to get that done. Those are tangible, concrete things. You got to talk about it in ways that people can understand. All right. So you're back in Luzerne County. We'll just do a little role play here.

I'm a MAGA supporter. And I come up to you at the gas station. Do they have wawas out there? Sheets. Sheets. I come out to the sheets. My governor did a great job. I love to see you out here. I don't know about that Joe Biden and that Kamala, though. I think I'm going to be for Mr. Trump. But you got one minute to try to convince me to switch. Hey, look, you work in a community that's really benefited from the investments the president's made. I actually think our economy is going to improve as a result of those investments. This is a guy who's going to defend your fundamental freedoms. And this is also a guy who's not going to bring chaos back in our lives. We need

clear, consistent leadership. I think the president is the guy to do that. Look, I'm going to be for him. I respect you. I respect if we have a difference of opinion here. But I'm telling you, as your governor, as a guy you support, as a guy who's delivering for you, it's going to be easier for me to deliver for you with Joe Biden in the White House. I don't know. That economy, my economy was better. I wasn't paying as much at the grocery store, though, back during the Trump years. My grocery bill wasn't as much. What's the deal with that? Yeah, we've worked really hard to cut costs for you. We've worked hard to cut costs. You're a senior to put money back in your pockets here, pass the largest tax cut in 20 years for our seniors. We're doing everything we can to reduce

costs for folks every day. And I'll tell you what, a lot of those costs were as a result of the pandemic, which President Biden saw us through. A lot of those costs went up because of supply chain issues. And thanks to President Biden, we're working those things through and making more things here domestically. President's been my partner in being able to tackle high-path avian influenza, the avian flu, which drove up the cost of some dairy products. We're now beginning to see that stabilize. So look, I'm not here to beat you up, man. You're going to do what you're going to do when you get in the voting booth. But my hope is that you'll hear me on this. My hope is that you'll take a look at President Biden's record and the chaos that Donald Trump brought.

I like to be called a man. One thing you didn't mention that probably this guy in Luzerne County didn't care a whole lot about is democracy and the threats to democracy. We get the bulwark. I'm back to being Tim now. Are you sure? I couldn't tell. I mean, you really look Luzerne County. Am I not giving Luzerne County a he, him pronouns?

No. The democracy thing, though, Biden gave a big speech here about that on the January 6th anniversary. And, you know, there's some people out there that I sit next to in these pundit chairs like, he shouldn't talk about that. These people only care about kitchen table. I don't know. Where do you stand on that? I respectfully disagree with you. I think the individual- I don't agree with that. You respectfully disagree with my imaginary pundit. No, but you mentioned that the guy in Luzerne County doesn't care about democracy.

I actually think people care about freedom and democracy a lot. They may not articulate it that way, but they want their rights protected. Women want the right to be able to make decisions over their own body. Folks want to be able to worship where they want. They want the freedom to walk down the street and not be shot. They want the freedom to be able to make decisions about what books their kids are going to read, not government telling them what books to read. And so I think freedom and democracy are on people's minds. And I think it is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time. We proved that in my governor's race. We talked about what

you'd refer to as the kitchen table issues, right? Cutting costs, economic development, public safety, public education. Talked about that every day. We also talked about freedom and protecting people's rights. And I think you can walk and chew gum at the same time. And the president's working hard to do that here in Pennsylvania. How worried are you about the second Trump term? Very worried. Of course I am. Look, I was attorney general when Donald Trump was president the first time. I went to court dozens of times against him and won. By the way, in the last election, 2020, last election he ran in 2020, I mean, he and his allies sued us here 43 times to first stop people from voting. 0 for 43 on that?

He went 0 for 43. I went 43 and 0. And we protected the right to vote. And we protected the will of the people. And look, here's the reality. He is unmoored. He is an agent of chaos. He's going to surround himself with real dangerous people who want to do real damage to this country. That's not a hyperbole. And I would say that to folks in Luzerne County, here in Philadelphia, or any place in between. One more thing. You know what? Well, we're just patting you on the back over here. I-95, there were some problems with I-95. Got fixed

in like two days. A whole damn road collapse. Yeah. You got fixed in like two days. It's fixed in two days. Okay. I took a brief stint in California after I left the Republican Party and needed to find myself. You know, I was like, let's move to California. That's where people go. Yeah, it's the right place to go. That's where you got the jacket. Exactly. They've been trying to build a train there for about 40 years, and they've spent $800 million, and they haven't even laid down a single track yet, because they've got CEQA review, and they've got, you know, everybody has got to approve everything. And you fixed the road in two days. Twelve. Yeah, twelve days. Yeah. Does that say something about democratic governance,

that maybe it can be a little bit sporadic and that the party could do a little bit better at cutting through that shit? Yeah, man. It shows that we can do big things in Pennsylvania, and I believe we can do big things in America if we focus on getting shit done every day, if we focus less on process and more on results and deliverables. I knew when that road collapsed, and nearly 200,000 cars and trucks go over it every single day. It's the most critical artery on the East Coast, I-95. I knew we couldn't afford to wait months, as all the experts told me. And so we whipped the bureaucracy in shape. The Philadelphia building trades were just awesome, agreed to work 24 hours a day, seven days a week to get this done.

We empowered local leadership. And we cut through all the red tape and all the procurement bureaucracy and all that stuff that slows us down. And I think we created a model for the future to get big things done. And I'm proud of what everybody did here. This was a team effort. And while I appreciate you saying, I got to reopen in 12 days, it's clear we got it reopened in 12 days. After the 12 days, you kind of send a selfie to Gavin and be like, this is how it's done. Gavin's done a great job in California.

Okay. Speaking of other Democrats, one more. What's happening with base John Fetterman? With what, John? People with based, based, you know that word? Some people tell me that if you knew John Fetterman from back when he was a Braddock, this has always been him. But I think a lot of people who aren't from Pennsylvania feel like he's turned over a new leaf. I don't know. He's a straight shooter.

He's always shot from the hip. He's always been super direct. And when he feels passionate about something, he's going to lean in. He's always done that. All right. I'm going to move to Rampant Fire. Are you ready? I'm ready. Rampant Fire stuff's going to be more fun. What always done that. All right. I'm going to move to rapid fire. Are you ready? I'm ready.

Rapid fire stuff is going to be more fun. What was that? What we just did before? That was like thoughtful. Yeah, long form. I got it. Long form. I guess you are kind of rapid sometimes.

So I should be less long form, more rapid. Yeah, but keep it tight. A couple sentences. A couple sentences. Do my best. A governor you've modeled yourself after. I'm going to give you a long answer. No, no, no.

I'm sorry. I just said rapid fire. I know. Go ahead. We got time. We got nothing but time. There's not one. Actually, there's a lot of governors, Republican and Democrat, who I really like and admire. But I'll say here in Pennsylvania, Tom Ridge, a guy who we disagree on a number of policy things. Tom Ridge endorsed every presidential campaign I was ever on. We always lost. He always lost. Yeah, exactly. Maybe I should rethink this. No, no I should rethink no no it was good he was a good man he just wasn't in touch with the Republican he's an honorable man but but more important for me probably less interesting for you and the good people watching the bulwark here and listening to the bulwark he knew how to get

the bureaucracy to work and he knew how to bring people together. He knew how to find common ground between Democrats and Republicans. And Tom Ridge is an honorable man. And I think we need a lot more honor and integrity in our politics today. All right, well, give me one Republican and one Democrat currently that you think are doing a good job then about that. I'm gonna get you in trouble. I think Spencer Cox, the governor of Utah.

Again, a guy I disagree with. I'm just, I had a mental, I mentally, I predicted who your two are gonna be and I'm one for one so far. Let me see if I get the other one right. Do I have to pick first? Yeah. Shit. There's so many good ones. I mean, look, I think Gretchen Whitmer, Tim Walls, JB Pritzker, Andy Beshear, they're doing a great job. I didn't get it right. I was going to save this for the Jokic question, but we'll take this. I thought you were going to say Jared Polis. I like that. I like Jared.

Jared's doing great. Jared's doing cool stuff, too. He's doing great. Big Gretch is good. That's a good pick. All right. You're an attorney. We talked about this.

I am. Is Donald Trump going to go to jail? I mean, I don't know. Look, I haven't followed it that closely. I know you think that's me. Come on. I just don't have time to follow it. Don't BS me.

If he's convicted. You're not watching Nicole Wallace every day, following the day-to-day. I love Nicole. I don't know how you put that guy in jail, even if day, following the day-to-day. I love Nicole. I don't know how you put that guy in jail, even if he is convicted. I don't know. I have no idea.

Fine. Can we talk basketball? You're wearing that. We're getting there. We're getting there. Basketball's the last two questions. Who do you think Donald Trump should pick as his vice president? Oh, my God. I mean.

You might be on a Veepstakes list someday, so you might want to monitor what's happening over there. I think if past is prologue he'll he'll just pick a sycophant someone who's going to enable and that goes back to the question we talked about before his danger he's not going to have people around him who are trying to do the right thing he's going to people around him who are just going to enable him it's dangerous related question we're looking right in the camera for this one. All right. Have you ever assassinated a dog? I have not. But how about her, right?

How nuts is that? The teeth or the dog or the Kralowandowski? What part of it? It's kookamonga, man. It's crazy. Some weird shit, as George W. Bush would say. Okay, this one might not be that rapid, but I want you to think about it. We're proud of her of two dogs. And they're still alive.

Did you ever put them on top of a car like Seamus? Never done that. Okay, this one might take you a second. So we'll take time. We'll cut it. We'll cut it if you need a second to think about it. And then we'll close with basketball. I love the Mount Rushmore question, but I'm adding a second feature to it.

If Pennsylvania made their own Mount Rushmore, where would you put it? And who would be the Pennsylvanians that you would put on it? It's a Pennsylvania-themed mount rushmore all right how many face four or five faces kind of i mean the normal mount rushmore is four faces you can cheat though if you want i'll go no i'll follow your rules okay i'd probably go uh pennsylvania grand canyon so where's that like the northern tier of pennsylvania New York state border. Beautiful. Got our own Grand Canyon. Yeah, great. Bring a little more. I'd never heard of that. So we're already helping the tourists of that region.

Yeah. You got to go William Penn. You got to go Ben Franklin. I mean, the greatest inventor of all time, along with arguably one of our most successful, if not the most successful politician. I'm a sports guy.

Yeah. So Allen Iverson. No, no, but he'd be interesting. I'd probably go Roberto Clemente. Oh, good pick. And Dr. J. Dr. J and Roberto Clemente. It's hard to argue with any of those.

And that would be a hell of a scene. That would look cool. That would look really cool. That would look really cool. Maybe we should do this, actually. This might be an inspiration for you in your second term. All right. All right.

Final two questions. Final two questions. Who is the best basketball player in the world, and why is it Nikola Jokic? He really, I mean, he and Joe, Joel Embiid. They had a competition for a while, but it's kind of over. Do you feel like it's over? Joel got hurt.

Joel would have been the MVP again this year. But here's the thing. There's no hate for Jokic, and it's all up. He is playing right now the most talented basketball player in the world. His skill level is extraordinary. I think Joe actually has more talent. Jokic's skill level is amazing. And this is painful for me to say because I hate the Boston Celtics. Yeah, same. But I don't think anyone has had as good a court vision as Larry Bird had until Jokic came along. And I actually, I'm like a little nauseous. This is your 80s.

My 80s. You might like this better. I always said Jokic is magic Larry and Moses all in one person yeah you know he's got Moses' size

yeah I mean by the way never looks like he's sort of fit or doing anything right and then boom he gets the ball he passes it

he scores rebounds he's unbelievable looks like he's playing with his kids he's in flip flops and he's like playing with kids he's unbelievable

and by the way I mean I think they're the favorite to win it all. Okay, we're knocking on wood now. All right, so do we still final question about the Sixers? And by the way, if they get to Boston in the finals, if the Sixers aren't there, they crush Boston. Crush Boston.

I'm with you on that. Okay. It's 3-2. We're losing to the Knicks. Joe is a little hurt. A little hurt. Yeah, he's lumbering out there. He's banged up, yeah.

This is a tough question for you. All right. Okay right okay sports radio we might send this to local sports radio but are we you know i love calling into sports okay good i don't tell man well i just just do we still are we still trust in the process yeah you still trust the process i do you don't think it's time to blow it up no hell no no look you've got, and I think you'd have to agree with this, even with Jokic at one, you've got to argue Joel Healthy is, at worst, the second best player in the NBA. He literally was going to win the MVP had he not gotten hurt. Tyrese Maxey, top 10, and only getting better. And you have all kinds of cap space in the off season to be able to make moves and make changes, dump contracts, and be able to bring some real talent in. So I'm trusting the process. I'm trusting Maureen. I'm trusting the owners to do the right thing. All right. Since you picked the

Nuggets to win, I do have one last. Since you're just your future, I feel like you're looking at the future and you're seeing things clearly. So I do have one final question for you. Is Joe Biden going to win the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania? He is. For sure? How much should I be worried about that right now? Look, I think it's close. I mean, all seriousness, 2016 came down to 44,000 votes. 2020 came down to almost 81,000 votes. We're a Commonwealth of 13 million people. We are the swingiest of all the swing states and by far the biggest and most important of them. This is going to be a close race. But I think if you look at President Biden's body of work,

if you look at the chaos that Donald Trump has wrought on this country and what he will bring back in a second term, the danger that he poses to America, I think when folks do go in and vote, it'll be close. But, you know, I have faith that Joe Biden can pull this out. Your lips to God's ears. All right. Joe L. Embiid, the world's second best basketball player. I'm with Josh Shapiro, America's second best governor.

How you doing, Governor Paulus? What's up, bro? Thank you so much, man. Man, look who he did to me. Thank you for being on the Bullard Podcast. We'll see you soon. Thanks. Bye-bye. you for being on the Bullard podcast. I'll see you soon. Thanks. Your heart beating fourth on one But the times have changed

The less I say, the more my work gets done Cause I live and breathe in this Philadelphia freedom From the day that I was born, I waved a flag Villa Delphi freedom took me knee-high to a man Yeah, give me a piece of my, my daddy never had Villa Delphi freedom, shine on me Never had Well, build up, down to your feet Shine on me I love you

Shine a light Through the arms of the one left behind Shine a light, shine a light Shine a light, won't you shine the light Feel like I'm in a friend I love Yes, I do The Borg Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper

with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.