The Bulwark Podcast - Jake Tapper: Trump Is Making the Country Less Safe

Episode Date: October 7, 2025

A new kind of McCarthyism has settled in at the Justice Department, where career prosecutors—including those handling tough national security cases—are getting canned for voicing any opposition to politically-motivated demands from top DOJ officials. And those who survive the ongoing purge are literally working in fear that they are being surveilled by the FBI. Meanwhile, MTG may play a role in resolving the shutdown. Plus, Tapper’s timely new book, his maybe/maybe not text interview with Trump, and the heat he’s still taking over his earlier Biden book. Jake Tapper joins Tim Miller. show notes Jake's new book out Tuesday, "Race Against Terror" Jake and Alex Thompson's book on Biden, "Original Sin" Bulwark Live in DC (10/8) with special guest Rep. Sarah McBride On sale at TheBulwark.com/events. Get 15% off OneSkin with the code BULWARK at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com/thebulwark today. Go to https://zbiotics.com/THEBULWARK and use THEBULWARK at checkout for 15% off any first time orders of ZBiotics probiotics.

Hello and welcome to the Bullwark podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller, delighted, welcome back, a anchor and Chief Washington correspondent for CNN. He's the author of a new book, Race Against Terror, Chasing an al-Qaeda killer at the dawn of the Forever War. That book is out today. You might have heard of him. He's Jake Tapper. What's up, Jake? Hey, man.

Did J.D. Vans call you a dip shit? No. J.D. Vans called John Favro a dip shit. And I'm honored that you also confused me. I was at a coffee shop in... Somebody else thought that? No, I was in a coffee shop in Covington, Louisiana. And a guy, it's kind of, you know, pretty red area of Louisiana.

And a very excited guy walked up to me. It was like last weekend, two weekends ago, and was like, you're John Favro. And I was like, thank God. He didn't think I was Dan Pfeiffer, you know, or love it. so I'll take it I'm sorry I'm sorry I just I mean I knew it was an elevated rank of the yeah I know J.D. Coch Favro did shit I mean Megan Kelly like blamed me for you know assassinations and stuff so you know it's everybody's getting everybody's getting arrows these days I do not think you're responsible for the violence in this country

thank you Jake I don't either I'm doing my best out here you know and also I just have to say like I don't want to wait into you and Megan can hash it out yourselves but like I really hate this us versus them thing that I see on social media more and more and more as if that would that like I'm not part of us or them like I don't know and I don't like it when people are assigning me to be in any group like I believe in what I believe in and I'm not like no one else is involved in what I believe in no it's crazy I this is basically me and Megan we're fighting that because I I don't mind being put in a group I'm a never trumper you can put me in that group but like there are other never trumpers that might do bad things and I'm not

responsible for that. I'm an individual where we live in a liberal democracy. We're all responsible for our own actions, you know, like I'm a, I'm a lapsed Catholic. There's some good lapsed Catholics and bad lapsed Catholic. I'm a gay. There's some good gays and bad gays. You know, that's just life. And frankly, we all contain good and bad inside of us, you know. We contain multitudes. So anyway, I don't love it. I don't love it either. And it seems be getting worse, not better. But you, Jake, I want to do the book. But first, you had a, I guess you had an interview with the recent, we assume it was with the recent. presidents. Do we have a picture of him texting you? Do we have evidence? Because it was text. So do we know

it was him and not Scavino? I know it's his phone number. I mean, like, I've talked to him on that number and I believe it was him. Now, was it Scavino replying for him? I don't know, but I assume it was him because every, let me just also say, like, I text people all the time. I'm aware. And politicians a lot. Just like, what do you think about this? What do you think about that? And like, you know, 50% of the time they respond. 50% of the time. they don't whatever it's a little more for you you get a little bit well i don't know but for when like i you know i i i have the president's number and i text him on occasion and i try to get an interview with him and i try to whatever and i think that differentiates me not at all from any other

reporter that has his number do you ever try to cold face time do you ever try a cold face time can we do that right now can we try to face time i don't know that he has face time this is honestly like i just think that we are headed in terms of this piece proposed ceasefire deal to an impasse, which is Hamas does not want to give up power. You know, the Arab League has called for them to give up power. Like this is where it's all going to crumble because I don't think that they want to be whisked to some desert island off the coast of Saudi Arabia where they could live out their days in luxury. I think that they want to be ruling Gaza and then Israel with an iron fist. And so this is, you know, so I just, I just asked him.

Suzanne, I just meant, we're on the two-year anniversary of October 7th, I was going to go there. And that was a, so what, I guess, so you just, like, out of the blue, you're just like, hanging out and you're like, you're like, you had this thought about Hamas. You're like, let's see if Trump responds to me on this. I, yes, this is my nerd life that I sit around and I think, like, well, what happened? Like, we all want this to succeed, right? I mean, like, anybody who wants this horrible war to end. Do we all want it to succeed?

It kind of seems like a lot of Israel supporters and citizens of Israel wanted to succeed. you know, I think that a lot of, you know, just people in the world want to succeed. Does B.B. wanted to succeed? Does Hamas wanted to succeed? Do the protesters? And also, like, a lot of the folks who have been protesting on the side of the, you know, humanitarian slaughter in Gaza aren't really so keen on Trump and B.B. cutting a deal either. So let me rephrase. My personal view is it would be nice if this war ended. Same. And the suffering and the suffering ended. And I guess when this.

was announced, I think it was it just Friday? Is that when it was like, was that when Trump? Times a flat circle a couple days ago. So exactly. All right. All right. All right. So, you know, Ambassador Nides was on my show saying, I don't care who gets the credit.

If this happens, wonderful. You know, this was the Blinken plan. Then it was the Blair plan. Now it's the Trump plan and who cares and whatever. So randomly I was just sitting around and I just have, you know, hey, what happens if Hamas doesn't agree to give up power? And then I just went on my day. And then five or six hours later, he wrote back a total obliteration.

So I asked him another question. He wrote back. I asked him another question he ignored it. I asked him another question he wrote back. I asked him another question he ignored it. What are the ignored questions? Can I hear what the ignored questions? Yeah, it's not that big a deal.

But it's kind of telling, I guess, what he doesn't answer is about as interesting as what he does. I mean, especially in a tech situation because, you know, unfortunately, you can't give him the Jake Tapper treatment during a text, you know. Let me just also say, look, I would much prefer to be doing an interview with him in person on camera, but he has not given me an interview since that one in June 2016. Wow. When I pressed him on whether or not his argument that Judge Curiel in the Trump University case, he couldn't be fair because he's a Mexican, like if that wasn't the definition of

racism, you're saying he can't do his job because of his race. Isn't that the definition of race? That was the last time I got to interview him. that was nine years ago. So, like, I don't think this is, like, the pinnacle. This is not, like, Boston-N-N-N-N-N. No, no, but, like, people are acting like, I think this is some achievement in general.

I don't. I'm, like, sitting around. I texted him. He wrote back. We put it on there, and that was the end of that. Okay, the answer that he did not write back to is, I thought the Arab League calling on Hamas to not be part of any future leadership in Gaza, Palestine was a remarkable step.

Are they committed, too, to seeing your play an impasse, implemented, and will they help with funding and a law enforcement presence of whatever is needed? He didn't write back to that. He doesn't know. And then I said, congratulations again. I hope your vision for peace becomes a reality because whatever I do. I mean, like, you know, any rights, I hope, working hard. And then I said, we'd love to get that interview on the schedule sometime.

We're trying to, you know, I've been trying to get it. Yeah. You got to work it. So much to talk about how do you think. And then I just throw one in there, like maybe an hour later. How do you think the government shutdown is going to end? Good. We're winning and cutting costs big time.

Then here's another one that I asked that he didn't write back to. Are you willing to sign into law an extension of the Obamacare subsidies as the Democrats want? So that was the end of that. So that, you know. It's just curious, it's interesting that he doesn't answer that, though. Again, that's I'm going to because that's telling that he doesn't want to weigh in on that. Because who know, I think they probably haven't decided. And I think it shows where they're positioning it.

Or he was watching the Yankee game. I mean, like, I don't know. Could be that. That's true. It's like his little fingers. It's kind of tough to click, you know, the hand bruise. Did you see MTG on the subsidies, by the way? I did.

That's wild. I'm just going to read this really quick. She posted this last night on Twitter. And I'm absolutely disgusted that health insurance premiums will double if the tax credits expire this year. Not a single Republican in leadership talked to us about this or has given us a plan to help Americans deal with their health insurance premiums doubling. She does go on and say she doesn't want to fund, you know, just want illegal immigrants to get health care and stuff like this. But like a pretty stark, strong break from MTG. and she's done this a couple of times recently.

Has she come on your show? Would she come on? No. I think she called me a Hamas sympathizer once. I'm not really going to stainwash her just because she had a couple moments of clarity. She kind of seems like a Hamas sympathizer right now. To be honest,

I bet she might, maybe she feels like she's come around on that. Because in the same thing, she starts talking about how we shouldn't give money to Israel. We should give money for ACA subsidies. I mean, I don't know. She's getting some strange new respect on the left. I'll say this.

I saw some. tweet about this the other day, and I agree with it. I don't want it to pretend it's an original thought. The more that a politician actually is likely to go to a grocery store, the more they probably actually have an idea of what is going on in this country. And the more that they have never been in a grocery store, at least not since COVID, and they've discovered Instacart, the less. And I think that their health insurance premiums. And look, I don't know if doubling the tax credit or, hey, maybe somebody else asks the question, hey, why the hell her insurance subsidies he's doubling, right? I mean, like, why are insurance prices going up so much? Like, all these

questions are where people live, cost of living, insurance. My guess is just, and this is based on no reporting, just on watching President Trump for the last nine years, my guess is he probably wants to cut a deal that makes him a hero to the MTGs of the world, but also wants to stand straight and, you know, thinks that Democrats are insects or whatever he said the other day about. That's interesting. That complicates their stance, though, right? If the Democrats had demanded, whatever, you know, make DC a state or something like you would never do, right? Like, then you have a more traditional impasse. By focusing on these ACA subsidies, it does cleave against them a little bit, right? Because, I mean, like the ideologues, like the Russ votes and the type, they don't want to extend the ACA subsidies, right? So there's internal administration dissension. And now with MTGs, she's like really the first public person to show some dissension. in the ranks in Congress, too. And Ray and Paul has different issues, but that's interesting. Don Bacon, the congressman from Omaha, was on my show Friday, and he said he thought there was room for some sort of compromise when it comes to the ACA subsidies. And I saw that the KFF did a study

that suggested that I think most of these subsidies are going to people in states that Trump won. Right. Now, I mean, that obviously now includes Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin. But, I mean, that's a lot of states and that's a lot of potential. Trump voters. And as we know, Trump won the white vote. And that includes the white working class vote. And, you know, that's a lot of people. That's a lot of people. And it is interesting the push and pull on this. You know, the Democrats, what they put forward. And I don't know that it's been scored by any non-conservative outlet, but it was a $1.5 trillion cost over 10 years, according to a conservative estimate, I saw it by a conservative group, I mean. So not all of it.

is the Obamacare subsidies, there's also basically restoring Medicaid coverage to what it was before the One Big Beautiful Bill Act. But, yeah, I think it is interesting that Democrats are focusing on this one thing. And I don't know how much it's cutting through. Like when we see polling that says most people support extending blah, blah, the Obamacare subsidies, do they know that those are expiring? I don't know. And this is a big challenge Democrats have.

Some of them will know. And as MTG points out, like the rubber will meet the road when people's premiums go up. And people who are sensitive to costs, which is most Americans will notice that their premiums are going up. And the question is, will they blame Trump for it or not? And I think that's what the Dems are trying to do. And also the rubber will meet the road next week when the first people who are due paychecks for this government shutdown that don't get them, that happens next week. That happens next week the 15th. I think it's members of the military.

But in any case, that's also just having covered these shutdowns before, the next round of stories next week is the military spouse who can't afford to buy diapers. because her husband's paycheck didn't go through. And my old colleague, Mark Caputo, is reporting right now that the internal memo is saying that they're not going to do back pay, which is like traditionally, like, if there have been furloughs, you know, and they come back, the government workers get back pay, and they're talking about not doing that. I know there are constitutional issues with it, but the notion that members of Congress get paid and members of the military don't is so warped, and it would just be so, it would be so much

better if they did not get paid either, the members of the. members of Congress. And their staffs, no offense to the staffs, but they're the ones doing the work also, right? I mean, staffs are kind of underpaid, really. They're absolutely underpaid. And by the way, they were underpaid, but when Congress existed, Congress kind of doesn't exist right now. So, so they're not really doing much. But they still get paid. The house has been in like 32 days this year. But you know that the work of members of Congress is far beyond what we see. It's a lot of like chasing down social security checks and advocating for somebody to get disability benefits. There's a lot of case workers that do the island fundraisers. Yeah, there's a lot.

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That's 15% off. one skin.co with code bulwark. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. I want to talk about the book. The prosecutor, like, this was kind of lucky. Like, the news intersected with the book in a fortuitous way for you. Totally.

The news gods have worked out in your favor. I've worked out badly for the country. Badly for the United States. But good for your book, which is just, you know, kind of how things go these days. So I just want to kind of contextualize this. The book is, well, actually, why don't you explain what the premise of the book is in who the characters are. And then we'll get into the news. Sure. So the book is a, it's a sleuthing operation by detectives, by assistant U.S. attorneys and FBI agents.

An al-Qaeda operative is picked up in Italy. And basically, the Americans have to prove that he is who he says he is, is somebody who killed Americans, somebody tried to blow up the U.S. embassy in Nigeria, or the Italians essentially will let him go free. And they believe it's him. They believe it's this al-Qaeda operative name Spinn Gould that they've heard of. So the book is basically about how the Americans prove the case and it's a police procedural like CSI or law and order anything when you find the clues and the finding of evidence interesting, which I do. That's one level of it. And I wrote it like a thriller. I tried to write it in as compelling a way as possible from what I've learned from writing fiction, except this is nonfiction. On a different level, this is

about a functioning U.S. government, a functioning FBI, and then functioning Justice Department, that is trying to make sure that bad people are locked away forever so that they can't do us harm. And this happens at a time that one of the heroes of the book, a guy named George Toskis, who sat at the National Security Division for the Justice Department and was legendary for just being a hard ass. And I should note, I've never talked to him in my life, he's never helped me with the book, I only know about him through his colleagues. Like, he wouldn't, he, like, reporters hate him because he doesn't give us anything. But I know enough to know that you want him fighting the war on terror. You want him making sure that all the prosecutions of terrorists are as tight as possible

so they don't go south in court, which does happen. And George Toskis in January, after my book was written, was sidelined by the Trump administration because he had signed off on the warrant in Mara Lago for the national security classified documents. So the guy in my book is a guy named Spin Gull, and he is, to this day, the first and only foreign terrorist tried in a criminal court in the U.S. for killing service members in a war zone. And at the time, it was incredibly controversial, and there's all these politics, Lindsay Graham and Chuck Schumer,

nobody wants this guy brought to the United States. Trump right now is trying to prosecute the second foreign terrorist captured abroad in a U.S. criminal court for killing American service members in a war zone. And that is this guy, Jafar, that the Pakistanis and CIA caught. And he's now in a prison or a jail in Virginia waiting for trial. Last week, the Justice Department fired the assistant U.S. attorney working on Jafar's case, a guy named Michael Ben Airy, because some, you probably know this person better than I. Somebody named Julie Kelly, this mega activist, suggested on Twitter that he was part of the resistance

the Comey indictment, which he was not. He's focused on trying to put this terrorist away. And he put a letter on his door like Martin Luther style saying, this hurts the case. And Justice Department leadership is more focused on going after Trump's perceived enemies than they are in the national security of this country. So while it's great that Trump is pursuing Jafar in a criminal court, because I think that that's the best way to get them locked away forever, there are decisions being made. that are making this country less safe

by getting rid of these seasoned prosecutors who know how to lock these people up. And we are really we're seeing this across the board. I'm going to come back to the book in a second, but I think that the prosecutor purge is so important because, and you wrote about this for the Atlantic and wrote how there's other examples of this that haven't gotten

attention and there are some prosecutors that are afraid to talk about it because, you know, folks don't lose their job, which makes sense. They're not just afraid of losing their job, by the way, or they're afraid of being prosecuted. They're afraid of the Trump administration going after them and ruining their lives. And these are people with families. I mean, like, there are a lot of journalists who are this way, too, as you know better than I,

Tim. Well, I know better than I, but you know as well. Yeah. Yeah, no. And so, I mean, just like across forward, so there are the national security cases which were important, as you mentioned, and, and like, the idea that we'd get rid of the prosecutor going after this terrorist who was allegedly responsible for 13 plus tests. Yeah, 13 service members killed at Abby Gate and 160 innocent Afghans. I mean, the guy was. It's insane that we'd fire that person. And for what? For nothing. Because Julie Kelly tweeted something? Like it's like what? That's our real life.

Like it was just one put from like a blog from the American greatness blogger. Now this guy who is in charge of keeping a safe prosecuting terrorist is out of a job. And we have somebody who's less capable in there. You mentioned Toskis. But this is also true in other areas, right? So Morin Coe, he's the most obvious one. I mean, this is a movement. A bunch of FBI people.

Yeah, a bunch of FBI. I had Mike Feinberg on the show. He was a China expert. So this is an administration that allegedly it says that they're strong on. on national security, wants to be really tough and macho and have lethality on terrorists, wants to go after China, their hawks on China, claimed that they want to go after pedophile rings. That was a big thing on the MAGA right. And they're firing the prosecutors and FBI officials that are the experts in going after

all of those threats. That's why, you know, I was asked a few weeks ago how I look at covering the Trump administration and I said there's what he does, there's what he says in public, and then there's what he says on truth, social. And I think what he does is the most important. That's not to say that I don't cover all of it. I cover all of it, but what he does is the most important. At the end of the day, he can say whatever he wants about national security, but look at what

he's doing. He can say whatever he wants about the Epstein files, but look at what they're doing. They could release, I'm sure you've talked about this, a billion. times already at this point. I've seen at least a million of them, but like he could have released almost all the files by now. Just not the grand jury stuff, but everything else he could have released. I mean, I guess I'm just interested since, you know, because of the reporting for the book and just other reporting you've done in the past and, you know, being in D.C., I guess you said the origin story for the book is one of the prosecutors, one of the AUSA is like a dad at a party. So,

you know, you're in D.C. and the dads at the parties are more in this space than they are here, uptown New Orleans. It told me this great, great story. By the way, it's a huge lesson for journalists out there. I threw a paintball birthday party for my son three years ago. And three years ago this month, it's out in the boonies in Virginia. And because it's so far, I invited the grown-ups to stay, drop off your kids, stay, have pizza, drinks. That way you don't have to make four hours of driving.

It's only two. And one of the dads and I start talking, and he just tells me, because it kind of comes up, I was talking about how bad milk. the military is at keeping records and how poor they are at sharing them from my book, The Outpost. And he starts telling me this story. And like, I got to believe that anytime you're at a party, there's somebody there that has a book in them and they just don't know it.

I don't know who it is, but like somebody's got a great story. Somebody has got the story of their life and it's actually worth a book. So that's, so Dave Bikarer told me the story. Yeah. My point is, I guess I assume you're talking to all these people still. I guess I'm just wondering, like, what? What is, like, the level of alarm about the purges inside the FBI and the DOJ? Like, are there, do you have any insight into things like we're not, that maybe we might

not be seeing or might not be clear to us, like beyond? And there, Michael Bennery and Marine Comey and these have been like big stories, but it seems like it's deeper than that. I think that people are very scared. And I think that the testament to how scared they are is they only talk about this on encrypted apps with me. And generally speaking, I sent that Atlantic story to a lot of people, and none of the lawyers texted back about it. I think people are scared.

They would reply on encrypted apps, is what I mean. Just because people are scared, and they think they're being surveilled, and they think that it's kind of like McCarthyism, accepted instead of expressing sympathy for the Communist Party, it's people who are expressing vague opposition to any disagreement that they might have with. anybody who ever worked for Trump? I mean, it's just, it's madness, it's chilling. You see the impact of it on everywhere, although, thankfully, we still have a judiciary that's willing to, you know, hold the line, but as you noted, it's not as though people who know better in Congress are saying anything, right? I mean, in terms of Republicans.

That's an interesting thing to observe. I mean, we don't, I just want to be clear. I don't like anybody doing a headline here that's not true. We're not saying we know that Cash Mattel or the FBI or whatever is surveilling people that work for the Justice Department. But, like, people that work for the Justice Department think they might be getting surveilled. 100%. I mean, that's crazy. Yeah.

It's alarming, but, like, what they're doing. I mean, they are purging people in the FBI who carried out orders, who carried out orders of anything having to do with January 6th, which remains a blight on this country. country, a criminal riotous gang of people trying to stop the counting of electoral votes through violence and attacking police. Did you see Stephen Miller interviewed by Boris Sanchez yesterday on CNN? Oh, yeah. He was describing, you know, what was supposedly going on in the streets of Portland, but it sounded as though he was talking about January 6 people.

But, like, they have so effectively. He even used the word insurrection. He used the word insurrection. He used the word insurrection, he talked about attacking police, and it was just, they have so whitewashed that from their brains that they don't even understand how they sound. And look, obviously, any violence that goes on in Portland or Chicago, whatever, I'm sure you and I and everybody listening to cry it, nobody should be beating a policeman, nobody should, all that stuff. Yeah, of course. But that all happened on January 6th. And like all those guys have been pardoned.

And there's also no, I literally the judge, the Trump appointed judge in Portland. that looked into the allegations like there's not enough that has been that hasn't been happening here right this this time like and it's not as if it could whatever but like as of now there's no other they said it took in 2020 when there were all those horrible riots and BLM and all that and you know but it's 2025 and they say we've had two presidents since then right it's not an emergency right no exactly although trump has had an on Portland for years now somebody convinced him years ago that Portland is that it's not portland is that it's not Yeah, right. It's just this lawless. Yeah, Antifa City.

I wonder if he's ever been to Portland. I was watching a video, like, the Portlandia side of Portland is really fun. Like one Democratic congressperson, I think Nick Christoff, like both were posting videos of, you know, people doing, this land is your land singing and like old hippies and stuff. It could have been a Portlandia episode. We had a reporter, Shimon Prokopaz, walking through the protests yesterday on our show. And look, I don't, I'm sure that there's violence that happens. And then I don't mean to make light of it. But like, it was a bunch of hippies. Now, again, it was, you know, early afternoon and whatever. But like, I'm sure there's violence that takes place,

but the picture that is being painted, those on the ground say it's not true, including the police chief of Portland, but one would think doesn't like violence. And the Trump judge. Right. Doesn't like violence against cops. Just on that military in the streets, and one thing that you've just been, not to gash you up or whatever, but I really do appreciate your work that you've been very focused. focused on veterans and people that serve the country, people in the military. And so you have a lot of sources in that kind of world. Yeah. How do they feel about being deployed into the streets?

Is there a concern within the military rank and file or are they, I don't know, or maybe they're, maybe they like the Pete Hague Seth, like, you know, Tom Cruise, Magnolia, speechifying stuff? I don't know anybody who thinks it's appropriate for U.S. military to be deployed the way that they're being deployed. Sure, you know, when they were deployed during the L.A. riots in, when was that, 91 or 92, I guess, I don't know anybody in the military who, you know, it's funny because in that speech that they did at Quantico, Secretary Heggseth and President Trump, Hegseth comes out and starts talking about this is about a renewal of a focus on lethality. That's what this is. No fats, no fat checks, all that. Like no. But like the, that's the S&L joke, but, but, yeah, like this is a, this is a return to a focus on lethality. And I think that there are definitely people in the military who liked what he had to say

on that. I mean, they might not have liked everything he said or how he said it, but the idea of we need to get focused on, this is what the military does. We kill people, we protect people, et cetera. And then Trump comes and starts talking about deploying them to Chicago and Portland. Well, are they going to be using this expert lethality in Chicago in Portland? Trump said it was going to be a testing ground, so I mean, I assume he thinks so. I don't know any people who join the military so they can use lethal force against their fellow Americans. You know, I just don't. I just don't think that that is a healthy attitude towards what the military is for.

Sure, in a pinch, if the law enforcement needs help, if law enforcement can't. can't do the job. But it's just a completely different set of skills. I mean, what what police are trained at and what the military is trained at. It's, it's not like you go, like if anybody who just leaves the military and becomes a cop, it's not like they're like, oh, you don't need to be trained as a cop. Just we know you were in Condahar come on board. Like, you have to be trained. Like it's a whole different group of skills and, and things that you're not supposed to be doing. and, you know, people you come in contact with who are having mental health or addiction issues. I mean, it's a whole, what police are asked to do in this country is remarkable.

Anyway, I don't know anybody who thinks it's a good idea to be deploying U.S. troops in the streets of Chicago or Portland. Well, besides, like, the president, the vice president. Well, you asked about people lying here. Yeah, yeah, got, got, got, go. You know, we all know there are things we can do to reduce our monthly costs and improve our finances, but it's tough to find the time. time to go through the credit card bill. It's tough to find the energy, you know, it gets your blood pressure up. I spent how much money on that delivery salad? And so you just don't want to deal with it. And it's hard to decide what you want to trim. With our sponsor today, we got

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rule of law and going after our foes or perceived foes. It's really interesting. We just had Priscilla Alvarez, who's one of our great reporters at CNN, talking about this, I think it was a sure scoop, that the Office of Legal Counsel, the Justice Department, they are writing the laws and the rules that they think are not the laws, the rules that they think apply to using lethal force against Tranda Aaragua, these Venezuelan drug cartel members. Alleged drug cartel members. Well, I mean, they are a drug cartel, but we don't know. Right. No, we just don't know if people we're killing. They are. It's hard to kind of believe

them when they like sent a makeup artist to El Salvador Gulag. And now they're like, trust us with the boats. We nailed it on the boats. We were wrong. We sent a bunch of people wrong to a foreign gulag and said that they were trying to Arragua. But now you've got to trust us when we bomb boats. their trend to Iraq well, we're sure. Military intelligence, again, these are service members doing the best they can, the best job they can, they get things wrong sometimes. We all remember during the Abbey Gate fiasco, not only the intelligence failures that led to that going on, but the innocent Afghan family that was killed a day or two afterwards because

mistakes happen in the fog of war. That was the drone you were talking. We were following. We thought it was a terrorist that did the attack. Yeah, and it wasn't. And like, it's not like the military intelligence people. are now different, you know, it's all the same apparatus, the same training and whatever. And like, again, they do the best they can in possible situations, but they make mistakes sometime. But anyway,

so what Priscilla reported is that, like, there are concerns that JAG officers at the Pentagon have about what is being done. But OLC, the Office of Legal Counsel, they are making the ruling that overrules everything. And they are setting the stage for the president to have this power because he has declared Tren de Aragua in an executive action or order, a narco-terrorist group. I believe he is using the same powers that, for example, Obama used when he had drones killing Anwar Al-Alaqui or whatever. This is the problem with any time a president creates a shiny new toy for himself.

how is the next president going to use it? So Obama uses this and expands drone warfare 100 fold. And obviously innocent people got killed during that time, no matter what people in the Obama administration said, we know that that's true. There was the extrajudicial killing of an American, Anwar Alalaki. I'm not shedding tears for him, but the idea that we can just kill people is one that I don't defend the drone warfare thing. But I guess it's worth noting that, like, at least in that case, we were.

We're trying to kill people that had a stated goal of doing terror against America. And we were going after radical jihadists that had attacked the Twin Towers and that were, like, attacking American troops all over the world. In this case, we're going after drug dealers. We think drug dealers. But like, they're bringing Coke into America that people want to buy ostensibly. I mean, you know, it's not, like, if you told me that we were just droning the one guy that was sneaking fentanyl into all the drugs to kill everybody.

But that's not what this is. Like, we're just, we're killing drug deal. It's a very different situation, I would think, drug dealers versus jihadist terrorists. It is different. I asked Don Bacon about that, too. I think, and I'm paraphrasing, but he said something along the lines of, he basically said that he had concerns about it. He'd want to know more about it, but, like, he only has the bandwidth to, like, challenge the Trump administration on so many things. And here, these are drug, these are drug dealers and they're killing hundreds of a hundred thousand.

I'm paraphrasing. You know, I know. I'm not bad at you. I'm just like, I've only got so much time in the day in Congress. I mean, Congress isn't in session this week. So, you know, you can maybe read an article about what's happening in Venezuela. I hear you. It's just like. And are they killing Americans? Are they killing Americans? I mean, people choose to OD on drugs. But it's not like they're shooting Americans. It's like they're bombing buildings, flying planes into buildings. They're selling drugs. Some of this is not Americans overdosing because it's themselves, you know, abusing a drug, which doesn't excuse the criminal enterprise that brings that drug there. But some of it is lethal doses of fentanyl put into things that are not. That's coming from China and Mexico. That's going to this is Coke coming from Colombia through Venezuela.

Anyway, I'm just saying, Don Bacon should read an article about this. This is not what this is. I'm not trying to get Don Bacon in trouble. My only point is like I think that there, I think that that's an attitude. that a lot of people in Congress might have, which is just, I just don't have the bandwidth for this. The New York Times has reported we might be doing a regime change war in Venezuela, so it seems like they should focus on it, I would suggest. I agree.

I think the idea that this is a much more complicated thing than just blowing boats out of the water, that the fentanyl is coming from China and then going to Mexico and then being smuggled, usually through legal ports of entry, and that this is not just, if you blow up these, ships off the coast of Venezuela or in the Caribbean, that that's going to end the problem. I think that that's accurate and true. I also thought it was odd to hear senior members of the government joke about how like fishermen don't want to go in the water anymore because they might get blown out of the water. Why is that funny? I don't know. It's wild. Let me tell you if there's a surefire way to wake up feeling fresh after drinks with friends. It's with pre-alcohol by Zibiotics.

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I want to talk about your other book. Just really quick on book stuff. Your last time you were on, you had written a fiction book, and we were talking about that. Yeah. And I asked you when you found time for it. And I found your answer unsatisfactory. You're doing a daily show.

Multiple hours, you're reporting, you're writing, your parenting? You've written two books in the last year? No, no, no. I started writing Race Against Terror in 2022, three years ago. And I was done with the first draft two years later. It took me two years to write the first draft. So when Alex Thompson of Axios and I started writing the Biden book after the election of 2024, the race against terror was in edits and fact-checking. Got it. Which required some work, but not the kind of all-encompassing work of writing a book. But you're doing this like at night after the kids are in bed?

At night and in the morning. There's a lot of morning work I do. You know, the kids go off to school at 7.30, 7.45. I have my first call with my staff at 8.30. Yeah. So, you know, there's time in there. But in any case, the race against terror basically is a three-year project. And Original Sin, the Biden book, was November, December, January, and then editing and fact-checking in February, March.

And that's how that happened. Then I'm not come on the show for Original Sin. You didn't go on the show for Original Sin. I couldn't. I was like, I was in a dark, emotional place between basically Thanksgiving and Valentine's Day. And I was just like, I don't want to subject myself to rehashing last year. I wasn't ready to do it yet. It's fair.

And you also were everywhere. I mean, you did like 112 podcasts. I thought the 113th wasn't really adding a ton of value. So it's a combination of my feelings. But you and I have a special thing. I mean, that's true. That's true. So we can do it now. No, whatever you want. I mean, like, I think there are a lot of people who are still very upset about it's, I think it's all just conflated in people's minds. What Democrats did.

Yeah. Trump getting elected. Me and Alex writing about it. All of it. I think people are just very still, very upset about it. And I totally understand. People are upset. People are so upset.

This is going to be my first question. Anytime Donald Trump does something insane. starts talking about how he knew about bin Laden ahead of time or his hand makeup or his drowsy speech. Where's Jake Tapper? Yeah. You see the tweets. Hey, Jake Tapper, write a book about this. So I just want to hear you.

Some of these people are obviously trolling you and not being good faith. But I'd like to hear your good faith response to that question to that criticism. So first of all, can I just say on October 3rd? So last week, it was the anniversary of the attack on Cop Keating. And I did like a little thing. And somebody said, why don't you write a book about it? it. I'm like, I did. I read it. It's called the outpost. But anyway, they made a movie out of it. Here's the thing. I have a two-hour show on CNN every day. And I don't know anybody who thinks

that we don't cover the president and we don't cover him aggressively. And when he says what he said about bin Laden, you know, it's like the hundredth time he's made this inaccurate claim, I, even though it happened over the weekend, I covered it on Monday. And, and, And I fact-checked it, and we talked about it on our panel, and I covered it. I get the easy troll, and it's fine, whatever. Like, as Hyman Roth said, this is the business I've chosen. What about this part of it? You're not a dementia expert, but just as a person that's sitting in the chair watching these guys every day. Do you think that's fair? Do you think that there is that Trump has acuity issues akin to Bidens or age issues akin to Bidens, or do you think

it's a different set of things? It's such a loaded question. I mean, Alex and I, our description, of Biden was we did not say this is a man who was addled in the throes of dementia and can't have a conversation. I mean, we said, this is what people close to him told us. And, you know, sometimes loses his train of thought, sometimes forgets names, sometimes this, sometimes that. I mean, it was very precise. And at the beginning of the book, it said, like, if you're looking for us to say that he's a hollow husk of a man who can't have a conversation, this book is not for you. And if you're looking for us to say he's exactly who he was in 2012 and on top of everything, this book's not for you either. So what we said about Biden was very specific and we were not referring to him in ways that people are characterizing it today. That said, certainly Donald Trump seems significantly older now at 79 than he did in his first term. He says things that are bizarre. He rambles. He lies a lot. He says things that aren't true a lot. He confuses names. He conflates events.

I mean, yeah, and I cover it all. I want to defend you on this. Because I get asked the same question in your absentia, you know, because I talked about Biden's age quite a bit too. It's funny, there's this, like, perception out there, like the right criticism of your book and of the media broadly. Generally, it's like people didn't talk. It's like, oh, Jake Tapper just found out Biden was old after the election ended.

And I was just like, everybody, we all talked about it. Like, our fan page on Reddit, actually, the board fan page trolled us. a year before the election by changing our logo to being like Biden is old from the bulwark because they were so annoyed that we were talking about it so much.

I was like people talk about it. But anyway, Trump is crazy. I'm putting this in my words. You don't have to agree with this. Trump is an insane person and is manic and also old, true. But like, he's out there all the time. There is a difference.

Like, Biden was not out that much and he did look very frail. And Donald Trump is out there. I'm not saying this is the same as running a marathon, but he's talking like five hours a day extemporaneously in front of cameras. And that's the difference. It just is. I mean, the way I have put it is that, and look, Donald Trump is 79 and he's showing every

day of it. I mean, like, that said, he does have more stamina than most politicians his age. But there's also, I don't think they're being completely honest about his health. I don't think any White House is completely honest about a president's health unless it's like Barack Obama, whose fit is a fiddle. But generally speaking, that's in an American tradition. You know, his personality issues, this is not to excuse it. And I've seen people like take what I've said and make it like I'm trying to excuse it.

Donald Trump's, when he says things that are lies or when he like, you know, does his wild, I guess he calls it a weave, whatever the weave. Like, that's a personality issue. And that's one that has been apparent from the very beginning. And, like, obviously, it's different now than it was in 2015-16 because he's, you know, much older. But that's a different wing of the hospital than Joe Biden and what Joe Biden was going through, which was like a diminishment of his acuity, according to people close to him, who saw it day in, day out. And, you know, I know people want to belittle it. But if you don't recognize George Clooney, as he is throwing you the most,

lucrative Democratic fundraiser in the history of the Democratic Party, that is disturbing. And like, I see it. I see all the trolls. I see like, oh, but, you know, Trump will do something crazy. And then somebody tweets, like, but Biden didn't recognize George Clooney. I'm like, different wing in the hospital is good. That's right. It's kind of a different issue. And it's also, like, what Alex and I wrote about was everybody saw what, like, the debate is the issue. Can I ask you this about the debate that really quick before it? Because this is like the fundamental thing for me that it's, I think it's hard to get across to people. And again, maybe where I differ from the right critics of or the whatever, pro-Trump critics of Biden in the book. Yeah. There's a lot of folks like over on

Fox would be like, this was a big conspiracy. Right. Like this was they're hiding. It was an intentional conspiracy to high. It was a weekend of Bernie's thing. Right. And to me, like I look at it and think it's more of like a testament to the power of rationalization. It's like a, it's like a psychological story about the people around Biden. Because if they really, if it was a real conspiracy, they wouldn't have put them out there, right? Like, they rationalized it. They thought he was better. I don't think it was a conspiracy in the sense of the legion of doom in the Roosevelt room saying X, Y, Z. But I think it was a number of people who had convinced themselves, first of all, I think that Joe Biden had removed from his inner circle, anybody who would stand up

and say, you can't do this, you shouldn't do this, this is going to be a disaster. And our reporting bears that out. There was not even a conversation about whether or not he should run for reelection. And Kamala Harris in her book says that it was reckless to not have a conversation about this. But she also, the word she used, I think was interesting. She said it's like we'd all been hypnotized in her book. And it was kind of a mental thing. Yes. There was an argument that the train was moving. The president is running for reelection. Nobody can stop him. He's the only one who's beat Biden. Who else is going to do it? get on board or shut up, you know? And like, that was the argument. And, and they did a decent, they didn't do a great job hiding it because before the debate, Biden was trailing Trump and the economy, the border, and his age were the reasons. And David Axel, like the last two most prominent Democratic consultants that elected Democrats, James Carvone, David Axelrod, were saying he shouldn't run because of his age.

No, yeah. Yeah. So, but then he came out and he showed the world that it was even worse than people thought. Yeah. And then that they had been hiding, they had been hiding stuff. Very few people were convinced by the fact that like, oh, he just had a cold. Hunter, your boy Hunter was like, he was taking ambient because of the foreign trip. I was like, the foreign trip was 10 days before? How long before was it? There's a lot of dishonesty about that. And a lot of people who were part of the conspiracy is such a, it's such a look. voted word. They were on board. There were a lot of people who are on board with the plan to just any time this was brought up and say, but I would take Biden on his worst day than Trump on his best. And like, it's not about what Lawrence O'Donnell thinks. It's about what swing

voters in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Michigan think. That's what it's about. And like, there was polling. And also the way that the system had been set up in Biden world were the pollsters who had these concerns could not talk to the president. And again, Kamala did so much to like support what we wrote in our book. Like there were so many things that we wrote that she also wrote. Like the Donalins of the world would take the polling information and massage it and make it as positive as possible and give it to and give it to President Biden. And he thought he was doing great. And she wrote that. We wrote it first. But that's just because it was true. And so there was this and whether it is an intentional conspiracy because Donald was making, you know,

$8 million if Biden won, or just a bunch of people who believed in him and thought Trump was an existential threat and saw no other route other than Biden, whatever it was, they hid the truth. And that truth was exposed to everybody on the debate and like Biden was forced by the Democratic Party, not by me and Alex, but by the Democratic Party. To quit. And we wrote about it because we thought, what the fuck just happened? How on earth did that happen? By the way, I would have loved to have just read the book on this instead of having to write it. But like when you're a journalist, if people aren't writing the book you want to read, then you write it. And so we did. And I'm proud of it. And it holds up. Who's the maddest at you over the book? I think Hunter and Joe Biden are probably the maddest at me. But also just there is still this refusal. And Tim, I've seen you be very, very honest and very, very candid about how angry you were after the debate.

And, like, I'm sure that wasn't necessarily good for subscriptions. So, I mean, kudos to you for that. But, like, there are still a lot of people invested in the idea that we shouldn't even be talking about this. And the Democratic Party's approval rating is still in the dumps. And it's not just because, you know, of the, of the, of, the border. It's because they spent years lying to the American people. And I think that there's, I think that maybe we'll never get it, but I think that Democratic voters and independent voters are due some sort of acknowledgement. And honestly, to her credit, Kamala has come the closest of the 2028ers.

She's come the closest to saying. I agree. I just wish they would just say, look, what you said to kind of didn't, look, guys, we saw Donald Trump as an existential threat. We're in a shitty situation. He was doing a good job as president. Obviously, I saw that he was getting older. But I also just looked at the metrics of what we had passed and what I thought we had accomplished. And I felt like given this takes of the threat, it was the best option in a bad situation. And in retrospect, that was dumb. And we fucked up. And a lot of people saw it more clearly than I did inside the bubble. I'd just be honest about it. Like, that's the truth. That's the truth, right? I would love some honesty. The problem with it is that

They were arguing that Joe Biden had and has, to this day, the wherewithal to be president until 2029. Right. I know. I know. I know. I know. I can't. I can't. I'm going to stroke out. They weren't saying, you know, elect Joe and he'll retire in a couple years. And then Kamala will take. I mean, there wasn't any acknowledgement of the real. I know. I was asking Jake about this. That's the craziest for Jake Sullivan. I was like, that's the craziest part of all this. You like, you think he was going to be president in four years. Anyway, I can't do anymore. What. Can I just say one more thing about the Trump side of it? Yeah, please. Yeah. There. Their argument that his decision making was solid, like whatever his abilities and whether and how much he was grounded in reality or if he knew that this congresswoman was dead or not or all that stuff. Their argument that his decision making was solid, I think is, I know, and I don't even think

you've read the book, and I understand it. But like, if you do read the book. I just want to be very clear. I've not read the book. Okay. I've not read a single book about the 2024 election. I hear you what I understand. Let me just tell you, well, I don't even know if you want to.

I'm not trying to sell this book anymore. Go ahead. Just do it. We're here now. There are Democratic senators in the book expressing concerns about the president's wherewithal when it comes to knowing certain facts, one of them having to do with terrorists, to get Moe wanting him having to do with how much he even had a handle on anything having to do with immigration. And like, I think the idea that his decision making is solid is a bullshit argument.

Because if you can't even trust the president to know all the facts and have a handle on his job, as Senator Bennett expressed in the book when it comes to how much Biden even understood what was going on with immigration, then I don't think you can make that argument. And I think that people can be mad at me all I want. Like I said, I've signed up for it. But like, they really should be mad at the Democrats who lied to them. That's what I think. 100% agree.

All right, everybody. We are sold out of tickets to all of our shows on the fall tour except for October 8th and Washington, D. and was on a call yesterday, planning out what we've got in store for you. It's going to be fun. Obviously, JVL will be there. So there'll be elements of darkness. But we're also bringing in Sarah McBride for a conversation with Sarah Longwell that I'm super excited for. Maybe we might get Will Summer up to talk about some of the crazy shit that's happened on the MAGA ride.

I've got some other plans in store for you. So it's not too late. Get your tickets now. Washington, D.C., October 8th. You go to the bulwark.com slash events. the bulwark.com slash events. I hope to see it all there.

It's at the Lincoln Theater. Awesome venue. Appreciate them for hosting us. And so I hope to see you all in Washington, October 8th. Last thing. I think the one criticism, or not criticism of you, but like the one frustration that the Democrats that I get is that people have that I hear when I make this argument about, you know,

how you should be mad at Biden. Biden lied to people. People get it. That's why they're popular. already so bad. They say, well, Trump's lying to people all the time. Trump fucks people over all the time. And like, why isn't the same true of him? And, you know, I was looking at... We cover it every day. No, I know you do. But it does be like there's an asymmetry about, like, the reaction to it, though. It's like Donald Trump did, like, he lied to people about

people died because of COVID, because of the lies that, like, Republicans were pushing about the vaccine, like people's family members died because of those lies. Like, Trump, this whole campaign was based around draining the swamp. He's running the most corrupt administration in history by like a mile, right? That's, you agree with that, right? And it's the most corrupt administration we've seen just by money, dollars, and cents. Like, he has his own crypto coin. Like, that's crazy.

It's crazy. The president has a cryptocurrency. People are paying money into it. It is remarkable what he is able to do with no pushback. And if you compare it to the stuff, sleazy as it was, that. Hunter and the other members of the Biden for it's it's they're pikers in terms of dollar for dollar I mean like just all of the stuff having to do with the cryptocurrency and all of the stuff having to do with rolling into town a week before the president rolls into town and like

talking to people and then like rolling out of town I mean yeah so people's frustration though right it's just like ah they want to scream it's like look he is lying to everybody he is running an extremely corrupt administration he's also old he's a bruise on his hand why is there not the same backlash towards him? Yeah. Not among you, but like out there among the along the line. I can't speak as to what affects voters one way or the other. All I can do is report the facts and and let the chips fall where they may.

And everything you've talked about, we've covered. Like we had Sanjay on to talk about the president's swollen ankles and bruised and bruised hands. Like what is going on? And what do you think? We will continue. We will continue to know all this, to cover all this stuff. You know, I'm not there to yell, I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore. I'm there just to report the facts as clear-eyed and honestly as possible.

I don't know why some people react to these things differently than others. I can't speak to it. And the queen had the bruise on her hand and then died a couple days later. But wasn't she like 97? He's 79. He's old. I mean, that's also one of the things that, like, I don't, the whole thing about him running in 2028 or whatever, which is obviously a huge troll on Democrats, but like at this point after January 6th, I would never discount anything. So, but like, I just, I don't think he'll have the energy to run for president again.

Like, not that it's constitutional anyway. And you saw when, uh, Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer were in the Oval Office and he put it the 2028 hats in front. Yeah. And Hakeem, Jeffries, the Democratic leader of the House, turns to J.D. Vand. the vice president and says, you don't have a problem with that? Because obviously, J.D. Vance wants to run for president in 2028. And J.D. Vance says, according to Hakeem, Jeffries, no comment. I mean, I thought that was funny. I like that. Good for Hakeem. I would be doing a bad podcast show. I just didn't ask you if you had a hot take on CBS. I know Barry Weiss. So, like, I'm a little conflicted out of it because she did a huge solid for my daughter.

Do you remember my daughter wrote a book about raising your hand, the importance of raising her. No, you mentioned it. I did. I had forgotten. Okay. Barry Weiss. I was on Twitter. talking about how proud I was in my daughter because she created a Girl Scout patch for raising her hand in her. And Barry Weiss reached out when she was at the Times and said, would you like to write an op-ed? So, like, I have a spot in my heart for Barry because that was a really nice act of kindness to my daughter. And I generally think that a lot of institutions need shaking up, whether it's media or academia. And I don't really necessarily have an inherent problem with disruptors in this era that people are losing faith in crisis.

and, you know, I think CBS News is a great brand, and I'm going to reserve judgment to see what happens. Were you a big free press reader? I read the free press. I was an original subscriber, but I'm a, you know, I subscribe to you guys. I've subscribed to a lot. I mean, like, I subscribe to a lot of alternative media because. I guess I'll just say this. This would be the nice way to put it.

I think it'd be really strange to put me in charge of ABC News. Because you're an opinion guy? Yeah, because you look at the bulwark. We have a fucking point of view. And, like, we mostly write about the threats to democracy that this administration face. I think that's the most acute threat face in the country, so I defend that choice. But Barry Weiss has an outlet, and they mostly write about the threats to democracy faced by the woke stuff. That's what they write about. Like, that's the most thing they write, and they don't

write that much about this. And so I think it's strange to put her in charge of a news division, just like it'd be strange to put me in charge of a news division. I don't think the plan is to make CBS News a television version of the free press. I think the free press is its own organism that has its own appeal for covering certain kinds of stories. And I think CBS News is different. My guess is, and I'm certainly not in the head of David Ellison or his dad or Barry or whatever, but like my guess is that the idea is that having been at the journal and the Times and then started this successful media venture, that she has a perspective on how the news media could improve. and based on what she has said to David Allison,

she has convinced him that she would be the best person to oversee that as editor-in-chief, while Tom Zabrowski, who I know from ABC News, is running the day-to-day events. And so, again, like, I don't know what's going to, I don't know what's going to happen. I know that. I think you'd be pissed if I was your new boss, though.

You never know what happens. Maybe just the Azlav calls and says, you know what we really need? We really need TDS. The business strategy has changed. We need somebody who's successfully monetized TDS. And so we're going to put Miller in charge, editor-in-chief. You know, I've been at CNN now since 2013, and I was at ABC News for nine years before that.

And, like, I've seen all sorts of different organizational things happen. You just do your thing. That's true. You're right. I just keep my head down and try to do my job, and, like, we'll see what happens. And, I mean, if it's a disaster, it's a disaster. But maybe it will be successful. I don't know.

I mean, I think, like, anybody, she deserves a shot, and she deserves a chance to, like, do the job and let's see what happens. And do I look at CBS News and think there's no room for improvement? No, I don't look at any news organization, including CNN, and think that way. So I don't know. I'm concerned about what happened with Kimmel and the FCC. I am concerned about what happened with Colbert and the suspicious. timing of his firing during all of that. The 60 Minutes settlement for editing an interview, which every news outlet has done

throughout all of history. And I've said that a thousand times on my show. And I aired the edit that Fox News did when they interviewed Trump. And he gave a long answer about the Epstein files, but they only ran the part that made him look decisive. She hasn't, though. I guess that's my much. She didn't criticize that, 60 minutes thing.

I'm not trying to get you in trouble with Barry. That is the thing that I think has some people concerned. That she didn't criticize this 60 minutes. It's like a free press. It's a free speech outlet. Like, she wants to take over CBS News. You know what I mean? There's just concerns that like.

Yeah, I mean, you just asked me what I thought. And my thought is, let's see what happens. Like, it's an easy, cheap clickbait for me to like start bashing anybody at this time. But like, I'm not looking for it. I was just curious. You have thoughts? You have media gossip thoughts? We all know that.

I mean, I hope the truth of the matter is. that I hope it works. That's the truth. Because we need as many thriving, successful fact-based news organizations as there are out there. We need, in my view, less ideological media, less in terms of broadcast media. It's like we have MSNBC, we have Fox. They're there. Great. Live and be well. Preach to your choirs. But we need thriving news organizations that are not perceived as having ideological underpinnings. So I hope it works. Honestly, is what I, and I think the bigger threat to news is the oatmealification, the vanillaification of news where like nobody is willing to say this is a free speech violation, what just happened with Brendan Carr and Jimmy Kimmel.

I think that is a threat. And I guess we'll see what happens. But by the way, you criticize Barry for not saying anything. I mean, did ABC, did NBC's? And it's, it's No, it's crazy. Yeah. I know, I know. I mean, like, I went out there and I said some shit and I thought I was going to be like one of like 100 anchors saying, like, you can't do that. You can't say the FCC chairman can't go on a podcast and say local stations need to drop this speech because I don't like this speech. I mean, I'm hoping for the best. Me too. There's some concerns out there. We could do this for hours shake. I'm way, way over. I apologize. So we don't have time to talk about the

Broncos win over the Eagles. I am wearing my Broncos shirt. And I'm going to, I do have time to read. I'm reading this book. I'm not finished with it yet. I'm busy, but I'm reading it. It's called Race Against Terror. I think your listeners will like it. The last one, maybe. I'm not taking a pass. That's okay. You're going to take a pass on the bottom book. I listened to your pods on it. I felt like that checked the box.

Race Against Terror. Chasing al-Qaeda killer at the dawn of Forever War. It's out today. Go buy it. Go birds. We'll see you soon, man. Thanks, Tim. All right, thanks so much to Jake Tapper. A few next level fans. No next level coming today or tomorrow because we got that live show

in D.C. There's still a couple tickets left. If you want to get out to D.C., the Borg.com slash events, me and Sarah and JVL will be live Wednesday night, so that'll be out later in the week. Tomorrow, we are taking a turn into what I promised you. I want to get into tech world, AI world, this TikTok purchase. I think this TikTok purchase is the most alarming thing happening out there and on a whole list of alarming things. So make sure to tune in for that. Appreciate Jake Tapper for coming on and getting the business from me. And we'll see you tomorrow for another edition of the Bullwark podcast. Peace.

John and Linda living Omaha And joy is somewhere on the road We lost Davy in the Korean War And I still don't know what for Don't matter anymore you know that old trees just grow stronger and old rivers grow wilder every day old people just grow lonesome

waiting for someone to say Hello and there. Hello. is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.