The Bulwark Podcast - Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible

Episode Date: December 20, 2024

While it's still going to be bad, for the first time since the election we're beginning to see that we may actually have a little fun watching these idiots prove they don't know how to govern. Meanwhile, we've also got aspiring authoritarians on the left who think they're right at any cost. Plus, the challenge of holding on to American ideals, how to reach low-info voters, Tim's take from Phoenix on TPUSA, and can Tim make Jon cry? And one more Biden critique (that comes toward the end)... Merry Christmas. Jon Favreau joins Tim Miller. show notes: Jon's piece in The Atlantic Clip from Stavros Halkias about not voting Trump that Tim referenced Tim's playlist

Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is the last daily Bulwark Podcast out of the year. I'll be back. I'm not like my guest who's taken off, who knows, a whole month, I think, working on French time. I'll be back the Monday after Christmas. The next week I'm going skiing, I need it.

And today I'm here with the co-founder of Crooked Media, co-host of Pond Save America, you might've heard of it. He also has a podcast offline. He was Obama's speechwriter from 2005 to 2013. It's Jon Favreau. What's going on, man? Thanks for holding space for me in this last Daily Bull Work podcast for a while.

We're going to hold a lot of space together, actually. At the very end of this podcast, I'm going to endeavor to make you cry like John Lovett did when he was last on. I'm telling you, you're going to have a tough time. His tears were on Jesse Waters' show. So if we don't have a clip from this podcast show up on Jesse Waters' show, it is going to be a disappointment. Wait, did Jesse Waters' show show love it crying on your show?

Did that happen? Yeah. How did I miss that? Why didn't you send that around? I think I did. I don't remember. Or maybe I was sensitive about it. I might have not sent it because I felt bad for it, but it's been a few weeks.

So now the scars have built up and now I think it's funny. We'll find the archive. Before we get to tears and before we get to talking about your Atlantic article about what the Democrats are doing wrong, which might also lead to tears, we need to talk about what's happening on the Hill. By the time we have this podcast up, the state of play might have changed some, but biggest picture here is what we got. There was a bipartisan deal between Mike Johnson and the Democrats, was scuttled by Elon's megalomania and possibly ketamine use, we don't know.

Mike Johnson attempted to fix it by stripping down the deal a little bit and getting Daddy Trump on board ahead of time, which he probably should have done the first time, gotten approval from Daddy. But even still, 38 Republicans voted against it. They're taking a third swing this morning. The last I saw Florida rep, Annapolina Luna, said that they are not negotiating with Democrats, which means they're going to need to get every single Republican on board. And boy, I don't see that as very likely. But I'm wondering what your takeaways are from the shitshow over on Capitol Hill and

the possible government shutdown. I will say it's the first time since the election as I watch this unfold, I'm like, oh, you know, everything's going to be horrible for sure, but kind of fun to watch. Funny and horrible. Funny and horrible. I mean, look, they-

Kind of like love it or leave it. I've told this to friends who were like, you know, maybe it's not so bad that the Donald Trump is Is running the country and we have a play on which friends are those, you know I have some I have some friends who were like I voted for Kamala Harris, but the Democrats do suck You have to know that you know, and maybe maybe it's I don't want four years of Donald Trump But maybe it's not the end of the world Maybe the other leaders of the other countries will be scared by him because he's so crazy

You know that kind of thing and. Maybe the other leaders of the other countries will be scared by him because he's so crazy, you know? That kind of thing. And I'm like, here's the thing. Donald Trump is, he might have some political genius to him. He's an idiot, right? And when you have a bunch of idiots running things who don't know what they're doing, that's not gonna lead to good outcomes for anyone.

And like, that's sort of what we're starting to see here. Like, why did Elon Musk blow up the deal? Who knows? Did he see a tweet somewhere that pissed him off? Did he see some misinformation? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. He's probably scrolling through his platform,

saw something that got him mad, fired off a tweet, and then boom, whole deal blows up, government shuts down. For what? We don't know. There's no rhyme or reason to any of this. No ideology behind it. There's no, it's just, you know, it's just breaking things as we go.

Yeah, my big takeaway from that is that, I think it says something nice about you, that you have your friends that are willing to be that honest with you, to tell you that they don't think it might be that bad. I think most of my friends would be scared. You don't have anyone like that? Most of my friends would be scared

to offer that opinion to me, for fear that I'd browbeat them and get into a screaming text match, or that I would derail the LSU game by yelling at them about their, about how sanguine they are in the face of the authoritarian threat. So that's nice. I don't do that, Tim. I have deep conversations and I have a lot of patience, which I don't know. I don't know why, but.

I like that about you. We'll get to that more. The lack of ideology. I also, I'm here in, I should have said this at the top, I'm here in Phoenix for a Magicella. And I saw Steve Bannon last night and Tucker and Ben Shapiro, all your faves. Yeah. And so I want to talk about that. But your point that relates to what I experienced last night is there is no ideological through the line here, right? Like the Republicans have

voted against this. Like some of them voted against it because they wanted their little special line item that they liked that got cut out at the last second. Some of them voted against it because they don't like debt limit. Some of them voted against it because they just like positioning themselves as the craziest son of a bitch out there that just wants to burn everything down. They think that's a good brand for them. Elon's, the difference between the two bills, like what was it exactly that Elon didn't like about the first bill that he liked about the second bill?

It's not clear. It is a motley collaboration of people that is united really only by one thing, which is like, we'd like Donald Trump and we don't like the Libs. Yeah, I was gonna say that's the second part. Yeah, because they like Donald Trump, but they also just, they just wanna win things and they hate the libs. Yeah, I was going to say that's the second part. Yeah. Cause they like Donald Trump, but they also just, they just want to win

things and they, and they hate the libs. And Mike Lee, Senator from Utah was on cable last night somewhere saying, Mike Johnson can't be speaker anymore. It's got to be Elon Musk or Vivek Ramaswamy should be speaker. We're like steps away from like Chancellor Musk dissolving Congress because it's just, it's too messy. It did make me realize that like Democrats are going to have more leverage in at least the congressional fights

next year than people might think, because they're gonna have an even narrower majority Republicans in the house next year. And I mean, we're watching this play out now and maybe they get the votes and maybe they do something, maybe they keep the government open, but they're going to have a government funding fight. They're going to have to deal with the debt ceiling.

Again, it doesn't look like they're going to get to eliminate the debt ceiling or a debt ceiling hike in this deal. They're going to, they're trying to pass a tax package that they have to pass energy, immigration, all this shit. Like they can only afford to, yeah, farm bill. They can only afford to lose one or two or three or four Republicans at most, at least for the first couple of months while they fill out those special elections. So yeah, it's not going to be easy for them.

The Musk thing, do you have thoughts on Chairman Musk? I mean, he's the shadow president, potentially the speaker of the house, also the largest government contractor. Yep. You know, it seems like there's some potential conflicts there. I think in the same Mike Lee clip that you referenced, he talked about how Musk could drain the swamp. Is there a precedent for somebody that is this deep into all of the different levers

of government in addition to owning a media platform, a social media platform? Not just in our government now either. I mean, he's announcing that he's funding Nigel Farage's Reform Party bid in the UK. This morning he endorsed the AFP in Germany, which is like, you know, the new neo-Nazi party there. FD. Yeah, FD. Sorry, the AFD in Germany.

Tommy would be very unhappy with you. I know, I know. I miss my world. I was just, I was railing about it this morning and now I screwed it up. He's also on the take from the Chinese. I'm going to be bringing that up with Steve Bannon when I see him here in a couple hours that feels like something that could be potentially be a conflict to have the speaker of the house and shadow president and biggest government contractor also Being on the take from the Chinese. Yeah, I mean the whole thing is crazy

But what I'm trying to figure out is like Elon Musk, you know I was talking to Ro Khanna about him this week on Pod Save America You know He makes the point like a lot of Americans look at him and they're like, this guy puts rockets into space and he's really successful and they think that's cool. And I think there's something to that. Like, you look at the polls, right? Like, he is not the most unpopular figure in the country right now.

And so the question is, how do we get people, most people to realize like what's going on? A, that Elon is basically running the government and B, that there's so many conflicts that it's just a corruption play and also he doesn't know what the fuck he's doing and so a bunch of people are going to get hurt by it. And I do think we kind of have to focus on like what he does that actually harms people and what he does to actually help himself, right? Because I think, you know, it's just like dealing with Trump. We can go on and on about all the crazy Elon tweets and this and that, and all

of the shit that he says, but I think the effects of him running the country and maybe the world are going to be the most important thing for people to lift up. I want to get more into the John Favreau anti-corporate populist in the Democrat section before. I'm curious your take on my own whether this is usually what you would ask me on Pod Save America, but we're going to flip the mic around. What's with these Republicans? Do you think Mike Johnson can survive? I want to play you a clip from my buddy Bannon last night. The political class is infected with a malignant

cancer. That cancer is bipartisanship. Clearly Johnson's not up to the task and he's got to go, right? He's got to go. So Johnson be Speaker of the House. Kind of a half-hearted no there from the crowd, but still didn't hear a lot of yeses. Do you think Mike survives? Did you see Trump last night? Trump, I was asked about this somewhere.

And he was like, you know, he's a good guy. He's trying hard. He's trying hard. I hope he, I hope he, he's got to be strong. He's got to be strong. So it's not, wasn't the full-throated, wasn't the full-throated Trump endorsement, but you can see this is why like Mike Johnson is, you know, like the lame member of their clique now.

He's just like on board with Trump's plane with Musk. And then he's at the Army-Navy game with them. He looks out of place. Like he's just... He's always in the back of the pictures. He's always in the back of the picture. He's like, who invited this guy? You know?

He doesn't really fit also. I mean, Elon, with the drug use and like the many wives, like both Elon and Trump have the many wives, the womanizing, they I think like naked women, it seems like. Mike Johnson on the other hand monitoring. They're not monitoring each other's porn and tape. That's right. It's just key difference. It's not a, like it doesn't feel like, you know, if you're going to bro down, he's the

guy at the top of the list. Steve later in that clip said he doesn't have the moxie. You know? He doesn't have the moxie. You know, he doesn't have the moxie. Whether he survives for a long term or not, like he might survive like the next couple of votes. I don't see how he or anyone survives in that role. It's the role more than the person that's the problem right now, because they have no margin. And you still have the Chip Roys and the and this wing of Republicans in the

House who are just going to like, just be crazier than even, you know, Donald Trump and Elon Musk and the mainstream mega Republicans. And so I don't know how anyone survives in that position. But did you know that if they can't elect Mike Johnson speaker or they can't elect a speaker when Congress convenes in January, they can't elect a speaker when Congress convenes in January.

They can't count the electoral votes for Donald Trump. So if Kamala Harris has the courage. No, no, it's not even, Joe Biden and Kamala Harris have to step aside by law. So you know what we're gonna get? We get president Chuck Grassley. Oh, Chuck Grassley. Chuck Grassley.

It's upset president Senate pro temp. Well, if you're concerned about the gerontocracy. That would be, it actually would be appropriate passing of the torch in the late American Republic from President Biden and President Grassley. Wouldn't that be great? Yeah. Because it's something to, because it's something to hope for.

Keep up the energy. Do you think he'll stay? Do you think he'll survive? Johnson? Mm-hmm. I think it's 50-50. And I've been saying, I think because of inertia, I'd put it a little bit above 50-50, just because it's like, you can't beat somebody with nobody.

It even took a long time to get rid of Mike Kevin, even though they wanted to get rid of Mike Kevin for a long time. It's an impossible job. So it's not like if there was a clear mega alternative with Moxie, who was an actual congressman, not Vivek Ramaswamy in this big forehead, then sure. I think they could get rid of him for sure. For him to survive his challenge now is he's going to have to squeeze out this CR with just Republican votes unless the Dems bail him out.

The Dems aren't going to bail him out, right? I've been kind of impressed. I will say the Dems have shown some backbone on this. You could imagine a different Democratic Party that would have been a little bit wobbly and it's like, well, all right, well, we don't want people to not get their paychecks at Christmas, so we'll cut a deal that we don't really like, even if children's cancer research we lose, but we'll still go along with it because we got disaster relief or something.

They're not doing that. Last I saw, Hakeem Jeffries did say the lines of communication with Mike Johnson are open again and they're starting to talk to them again. Of course, this is Friday morning that we're recording. That's the death knell for Mike Johnson. Maybe that was a strategic move by Hakeem. Yeah, maybe. So yeah, but they're going to need some Democratic votes and I don't know what Democrats vote for if, I think they got debt ceiling out of this latest package. But if it's like, you can imagine if it's a clean CR that's just like a patch that kicks it

one more month down the road. Yeah, sure. You know, maybe the Democrats do it so they don't have, we don't have chaos around Christmas, that's just like a patch that gets that kicks it one more month down the road. Yeah. You know, maybe the Democrats do it so they don't have, we don't have chaos around Christmas. But yeah. I've been impressed with them. I wanted them to let him walk the plank and they have been letting him walk the plank. Yeah. It's an impossible job to begin with.

And while we're just being happy for a second before we kind of get into the depths of despair, I do think about like the lame duckness of Trump might limit his urbanist power somewhat. And so that's kind of a double-edged sword because on the one hand, I think again, it will, you know, maybe prevent some of the authoritarian stuff we're worried about. On the other hand, it might make them start doing some of this. I want to play a little bit more from Bannon last night. And one last thing. Trump 2028. MSNBC, fuck you.

Nobody watches more MSNBC than that guy and your mother. I mean, like they're the top two MSNBC viewers on the marketplace. And he still, so it's a little performative there to be like, fuck you. And your mother. I mean, like they're the top two MSNBC viewers on the marketplace. And he still, so it's a little performative there to be like, fuck you. But they're going to have to start doing this, don't you think? Like pretending like Trump might run again in order for him to maintain his hold? Or is that wishful thinking? Or nightmare thinking?

I heard Bannon say this at the New York Young Republican Club thing this week, and his view on this from Mike Davis, noted legal expert Mike Davis, because in the Constitution it doesn't say consecutive terms that maybe Trump can run again, in which case, let's do Trump-Obama 2028. Let's do it. Let's bring him back. Yeah, Mike Davis wanted to put me in the women's prison, he said. Which I think I was just like, yes. I think that's a pretty good deal. Yeah, that's what I was like. I was like, great.

Why, why, great, yeah, thank you. Sign me up. I think he thought that was a neg, but. You think they're going to put Pod Save America and the Bulwark in the same prison? Do you think we're going to get to share? I hope so, John. I hope so, too. I hope so.

That would be fun for me. You know, if we're going to suffer, we might as well suffer together. My only other observation from all this, which is related from last night, is, you know, the signage at this place, at this AmericaFest, is all confirm Trump's cabinet. It's just total Trump cultish hagiography. The speeches are all over the place. I mean, literally, it's like Ben Shapiro gave, like, what could have been a Paul Ryan speech with like 20% of Mr. Trump, God's hand is on Mr. Trump, put on top of the Paul Ryan speech. And then Bannon is like a resolent ski, Trump 2028. Then Tucker is like, we need to go after the big banks.

And then Ben Carson is talking. There's no coherent through line. And I do wonder, before we get to your suggestions on what the Dems could do, am I being Alan Lichtman-y to just think that this might just burn itself out? Maybe the Dems just need to let this burn itself out. It's burned really hot and they got what they wanted and now they've got nothing left to fight for. I think it could burn itself out, but I also think that Dems can't just stand by and let

that happen because I think we've got to let people know exactly what's going on. But we have, for a couple years now, talked about the challenge of, like, Democrats being in power and having this big heterodox coalition that extends from, you know, Liz Cheney to Bernie Sanders and AOC and how that's difficult and it's tough to keep it together. Angela Davis to Bill Kristol is the version of that I liked the best. Same idea. But at least we have a real platform.

Even Liz Cheney in the coalition, she wasn't asking anyone to change the platform. She just wants to stop Donald Trump. And Joe Biden, he came into office, he had things he wanted to do. And I don't, I think there is a split between like, I mean, there's the JD Vance style Republicans who might want to be a little more populist, right? You know, Josh Holley's out there proposing like a, an expanded child tax credit. And then there's Elon and Vivek, the billionaires, who seem to be more libertarian.

They just want to cut government, do everything. They want people to suffer. Trump doesn't know, whoever the last person who talks to Trump, that's how he believes how things should go. So like, I think it's going to be a fucking mess. I really do. And I don't think that that guarantees wins for Democrats

or for all of us, or that means everything's going to be great. But I do think when we look at the next four years and figure out how to strategize, we should keep in mind that it is most likely going to be chaos and infighting and figure out how we can take advantage of that. It was just so North Korea yesterday, even more than usual. There was just no underlying ideological message. Because they just wanted to win. That's it.

I mean, it's like, own the libs and they own the libs. So now what do they do now? They got to own them harder. Well, they got to own Mike Johnson. Mike Johnson's the new lib, which is why I think he's on thin ice. Yeah, I don't know. The happy part of me is this kind of, we get to sit here and laugh and point and chuckle at their incompetence. The dark side of me is like, man, if it continues to be this kind of a shit show and things look

really, really bad in two years, and we have an 80 year old son downing Trump, might then the cults decide that they need to turn to a darker, you know, sort of vision for the future. And like, that's the thing that really thing that really has me a little concerned about it. So there you go, don't be too happy. Yeah, me too. Me too, Tim. It's possible that happens. My philosophy on all of this is we've got to take it one day at a time. You're so bad at this.

Well, it's taken me like 43 years to get here, but I do think that if we all spend all of our time dooming about the future and what might happen, like A, it's not going to change anything. And B, it's going to take our focus away from like what we can do right now to actually fight these guys and also try to take power back by convincing people that we should have it.

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That's AuraFrames.com promo code BULLWORK. This deal is exclusive to listeners, so get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply. You wrote for the Atlantic. I did. It's an appropriate place to write. You wrote about people who aren't engaged in politics and how to reach them. And so obviously that the right place to go for that was the Atlantic. The Atlantic, yeah. Widely read by the TikTok generation and the low information.

Even if we don't agree, the headline was the conversation Dems need to have. And so we're two white guys with podcasts, so we'll have that conversation right now. And it was, even if we don't agree with views of leftists or liberals or never Trumpers or mega Republicans, we understand them or at least think we do. The people whose views we don't understand tend to be the people who simply don't follow politics that closely, and yet that's most Americans. And you're arguing that the thing that the Dems should be focusing on is how to reach those people. And you feel like the current trajectory isn't great on that count. So why don't you talk about that? Yeah.

So the thing about me and writing is I don't do it much anymore because it takes too much time but the Atlantic reached out and they asked if I wanted to write a piece and I was like, you know what? I should finally put some thoughts down on paper instead of just tweeting and skeeting and talking on a podcast. So I did. Really this was just a piece for your pal Sarah Longwell. Because, you know, it was inspired partly by focus groups I've done, but also focus

groups that she's done that I've listened to. And also just like knocking on doors and doing canvassing. And I think like- Tell the knocking on door story that you started the article with for people who are not- We were in Vegas the Sunday before the election. We were in a very working class neighborhood in East Las Vegas. Knocked on one door, I was with Tommy Vitor, Nina Harris, who's on Vote Save America. And it's like 72-year-old, on the list it said 72-year-old registered Democrat. This little old Asian woman

comes to the door. She's like sort of tough to understand, but she's very sweet. And we ask her if she's voted yet. And she says, she's kind of confused. Then no, she hasn't voted yet. And then she said, Trump, president Trump. And we're like, no, no, no, no president Trump. And she's like, and she's like, and we're like Kamala Harris. And she's like, oh, didn't she let in all those illegals

who killed all those cops? And I saw that. And we're like, no. So then I was just like, all right, what do you say? Right? And I imagined that and we're like no so then I was just like all right What do you say right and I imagined at the moment if this woman had posted that on social media? Right, which is the first thing would happen is everyone should be canceled people would scream things at her Eventually Trump would invite her to the State of the Union Think she'd have to kill a black person on the subway to get invited to the State of Union, but okay. Yeah Yeah, that's true.

So I stopped and I was like, here's the thing. I'm like, actually, if Kamala Harris wins, she will pretty much close the border, especially when there's an influx of migrants that goes above a certain level. She's going to be tough on border. And by the way, she's also going to make your prescriptions cheaper. And then Tommy's like, and she's going to cut your taxes. And the woman sort of just looks at all of us and she's like, okay. She goes, I'm more like, what do you mean?

She's like, I'll vote for Kamala. We're like, really? She's like, yeah. She really gives us a thumbs up. We give her a thumbs up and we walk away. And you know, it was just most interactions, as you know, you've been in politics are not like that. They're not that satisfying when you talk to voters.

Some voters make you, they say things that make you insane, as you know by listening to all these focus groups. But it is an indication that people are much more complicated than those of us who pay close attention to politics think. Because like I said, we know what the MAGA diehards think. And we know what the leftists think. We encounter cohesive political identities all the time, and that's just not the case when it comes to most voters.

I think that as we all talk about politics, as we all churn out our content or we're doing our posting and stuff like that, at some point, we have to think that the way people perceive politics, people who don't pay attention that much, is through this algorithmic mix of takes and opinions and pieces and cable hits and whatever else that leaks through the bubble that we're all in to someone who's just checking out TikTok a couple of days before an election, right? And there's a whole other conversation

about how we reach these people, which is obviously not just happening on Podsave America or the Bulwark or the Atlantic, right? But there's also a conversation to be had not just in how we reach them, but when we reach them, how we argue and how we talk about politics. And I think that those of us who talk about politics a lot are a little more, we're not using language that most people use. We don't have a style of argument or debate that most people find persuasive.

And if we don't persuade people, like we're not gonna win, you know? And the way that a lot of us talk about politics is, you know, we're trying to fight battles in order to make ourselves feel right about being right. And politics is not just about being right, it is about persuading people to think differently and behave differently. And that's how you win an election. An election is how you

govern. You know, you wrote about kind of in 2016, that there was a lot of like, well, there was misogyny at play here. And, you know, that there's obviously this conversation about others, there's this misinformation and the disinformation of the Russians. And this time, it's like, know that there's obviously this conversation about others there's this misinformation and the disinformation of the Russians and this time it's like well there could be racism and misogyny and inflation was a problem and Biden was too old when you get to that and like all those things are kind of true right but they also are alibis you know they also are alibis to having to actually go out there and convince people that the other alternative for governing is superior. It is an entirely human reaction to look for simple,

easy explanations and simple, easy answers. And so it is very easy and maybe somewhat satisfying to be like, okay, the problem is we need, you know, I've seen this a lot. We need more independent media. I got a lot of this from the piece. People are like, don't you know the real problem is the information ecosystem and we need to build up independent progressive media.

And I was like, you know, I, I do, I'm like, you know, I do know that. I, I did start a progressive media company seven years ago. So I am, I am aware of that point, but that is necessary. But like, it's all the search for, okay, well, you know, Hillary lost because of misogyny and racism and everyone mocked, you know, working class voters for economic anxiety after Trump won in 2016. It was like, oh, well, actually, they were just racist. And it's like, yeah, well, the complicated truth is racial resentment definitely fueled a lot of Trump voters. But okay, then we had a bunch of Latino voters who voted for Trump and now Asian American voters are voting for Trump and black men, some black men are voting for

Trump and young people. Right. So it's like, we're out of excuses at this point. And unfortunately, we're also out of very easy answers on how to move forward and beat him and the real work of democracy is like talking to and persuading people that you don't agree with on everything. And like I know that's a hard thing to hear and it's not meant to be like, we should all be centrist and moderate and all that. Because some people who are classified as like moderate, as you know,

have like extremely left views on some issues and extremely right views on other issues. Like people don't have political identities that make sense to partisans. That's just the whole, that's most of the electorate. You know, it's a message to, that's part of the reason it was written in the Atlantic. It is a message to all of us who pay close attention to politics. Do you have any thoughts on the media side of things though?

Is the answer to create more left media or pro-democracy media, whatever you want to call it, or is it actually trying to engage in other media bubbles and having people that have non-MAGA views represented in other spaces? I think I played the audio from my friend, from our guy Stavros, who's a comedian from us. I think his podcast was called Come Town. Yeah.

And he went on one of these bro podcasts and crushed it. I gave the best answer that I've heard yet for not voting for Trump. I'll put it in the show notes, if you haven't seen it. But like, what is the right balance of vote? Like, where is your focus on that? I think three things we need to do. Ben Wickler, who's running for DNC chair, was just talking about this the other day. I thought it was really-

You're such a Wickler stan. I'm a Wickler stan. I don't know. I'm neutral on the DNC race. Nobody's, nobody's knocked my socks off yet. No, we're gonna have, you know, whoever wants to come on Pod Save America. I think I'm supposed to talk to Ken Martin when we get back from the break. There was a bald guy on MSNBC talking about how the Democrats should learn more from Trump and how they should do tax cuts. The Trump tax cuts

were really great and he's running for DNC chair. I thought it was performance art. I saw it on the plane yesterday. Is that that state senator from New York? Maryland. I have no idea. I know where to get him booked on Potsdamerica. He has some interesting points. Definitely more corporate tax cuts, I think is the path back for the Democrats. Yeah, no, that's what the people want. More corporate tax cuts, less funding for childhood

cancer. So three steps, one and the third is the hardest, but one I do think like I would love more independent media. And when I say progressive, great, but also, you know, I think of liberalism now as small L liberalism stretching from the far left to the center right. Any kind of independent media along that ideological spectrum, I'm for, I think we need more of it. I think number two is to absolutely go into these other spaces, you know, with people that we don't necessarily agree with, go on their shows, talk to them,

try to expose their audiences to other views since they're not necessarily being exposed to other political views. So I think that's important. And then I think the big challenge here is, like, we have to figure out a way to reach the, like, people who don't consume news that much, not just political news, any kind of news. And that is the tough one that no one is, the nut that no one's cracked yet.

And I think we need to focus a lot more on that. We think about that a lot here at Cricket Media, like how do we go beyond our own audiences? I'm sure you guys think about that too. Yeah, all the answers to that have been from the political class have been awful. Awful, awful. Every ad that I've seen trying to target low info voters for that have been, from the political class, have been awful. Awful. Awful.

Every ad that I've seen trying to target low info voters is like a parody of an attempt to do it. So, like all of the ad wizards out there working on this, like you just got to start like, throw everything in the trash and start from square zero. Because the people thinking about it aren't low info voters. Right. Right. Right? Democrats, we lean on identity as an explanation

for all kinds of things, but we forget to lean on identity as an explanation for why low information voters don't think like us. Because we're not in their shoes. And so you actually need to talk to people who don't consume a lot of news and politics about politics to figure out what might persuade them. Yeah, you've got to bring some people who don't consume a lot of news and politics about politics to figure out what might persuade them.

Yeah. You got to bring some people in the room that are like, forget about Tony Blinken. I don't know who Dan Quayle is. I don't even know what you're talking about. I've never heard of Jake Tapper. If you've heard of Jake Tapper, get him out of the room. Right. No, I talked to, I did a focus group with a bunch of young people in Orange County before the midterms in 22.

And it was right after Dobbs. And one young woman was like, she was outraged by Dobbs and she was outraged about the Supreme Court. She couldn't believe it. And then so she finishes her her whole tirade about this. And I'm like, so were you registered to vote in the midterms? And she said, what's a midterm? What? What's a midterm? What's a midterm? And I was like, okay, well, there we are upset about jobs. That's we like, we like the, the sentiment there. Don't know if you're registered or not. Don't know what a midterm is.

So we got a, we got some work to do. Hey guys, if you're listening to this podcast, you care about what's going on in the world. And you know, we're doing our best here at The Bulwark as we grow to expand out reporting, reported commentary, no bullshit insight. But like all of this stuff is based on people doing shoe leather reporting, people going out there and gathering sources and going around the world and educating us about what's happening in the world. And one of the places that's out there still doing that is the Washington Post. And this podcast is sponsored by the Washington Post. When you go to washingtonpost.com slash the bulwark, our listeners can get an exclusive deal to subscribe for just 50 cents per week for

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So go to washingtonpost.com slash the bulwark to subscribe for just 50 cents per week for your first year. That's 80% off their typical offer. So this is truly a steal. Once again, that's washingtonpost.com backslash the bulwark to subscribe for just 50 cents per week for your first year. Here's another concern I have about the low info ecosystem, particularly on the left, that some of the folks are getting radicalized in a way that I find concerning.

I would as a former Republican. So maybe some Libs can dismiss my views, but you're a Democrat in good standing. So I'm going to talk to you about this. I had a friend that texted me. I'm good, good-ish standing. I had a friend that texted me and I don't know why they were on the Pod Save America Reddit page. I don't know if you are ever, but apparently it was in shambles over your lack of support

for vigilante assassinations. And another person messaged me about how you, John Fabriel, your Twitter replies were filled with people outraged that you tweeted a tweet about how the Democrats might want to moderate on immigration. I'm wondering what your sense is of the extent right now of the backlash on the left and whether some of the lessons might be to move into a place that's a little concerning.

Oh, really. This might make me cry, actually. Okay, great. So, I really thought a lot about the Luigi Mangione assassination thing, and it really bothered me. And I was trying to figure out why it really bothered me and why. The assassination bothered you or the response? The response. Because I am, I am someone who got into health,

got into politics 20 years ago because of healthcare. It's like, it's the issue I, I'm most passionate about and I obviously worked for Barack Obama, went through the whole affordable care act debate. I also think that insurance companies are awful. I would like something, if not Medicare for All, close to it. I like Pete Buttigieg's plan in 2020

about Medicare for All, who want it, where you can choose Medicare. So I believe in all that. And then when I saw people who were like, excusing or glorifying or celebrating vigilante justice, vigilante violence, extrajudicial killings. I was just like, what? At first I didn't believe that it was, I was like, oh, it's probably like a few Twitter people. And then it just like, it grew. And then, I mean, you mentioned the Patsy of America Reddit, there was some people on our subscribers

on our Discord who were like angry with me for my takes on this, which again, my centrist, my super centrist take is vigilante murder bad, insurance companies also bad. That's my crazy take and people were not happy with me. So I jumped into our Discord and talked to our subscribers for a couple hours on Sunday because like you said, because like you said, this is the kind of person I just go right in there and I didn't yell at anyone, we had a good time. And by the end, everyone was like, of course we don't want this. Of course we don't excuse this murder, but you're not understanding like the rage that's out there.

And they were mad that I think they think I called it performative at some point. And what I was calling performative at some point. And what I was calling performative was not people's rage towards the insurance industry at all or their anger towards the healthcare system. What I thought was performative was people like, you know, Taylor Lorenz was supposed to be a journalist, you know, posting memes, CEO down. And, you know, she's got a headline, Why We Want

Executives Dead. And like, okay, that you're supposed to be in a position of responsibility that I don't think that's really wise. And I think that part of this is about trying to draw attention to yourself, right? But someone out there who has been denied by an insurance company and has watched a loved one die or suffer or has faced bankruptcy, like, I get why they're mad. But my concern, and I'm sure it's your concern too, is starting

to excuse this or starting to think that maybe the political system is so broken and we're never going to get healthcare reform, we're never going to fix this, that you can understand why people would do this. That leads us down a path, I think, where the alternative to the right-wing authoritarianism that we are fighting right now is left-wing authoritarianism Where it's not about trying to persuade people or trying to make democracy work as broken as democracy is It is about just you know Force it's about might makes right and and we can use force to do what we want

And if we believe something it doesn't and we can use force to do what we want. And if we believe something and we believe it so strongly, it doesn't matter if someone else doesn't believe it. It doesn't matter if it's complicated, if the issue is complicated. We need to be right and we need to be right at any cost. And so it doesn't matter what we do because the belief and the ideology is more important than actually bringing people along and Like look I get I get the impulse I get the frustration but that path has never worked That path has never worked. It doesn't lead to a good place at least like when you start excusing political violence that means that other people with

Political views that are very different than yours Will also start excusing political violence and they'll be able to start committing political violence, too And then we have violence everyone's like well America is a violent country. I'm like, yeah America is a violent country We don't need to make it more violent That's not the answer one exception. I mean Bill Ayres puppet Barack Obama did get into the presidency So maybe it has worked one time Bill Ayers' puppet Barack Obama did get into the presidency, so maybe it has worked one time. I was, and then I used the civil rights movement as an example and people were like, what are you talking about? The civil rights movement was incredibly violent, like the state used violence against the activists and the protesters and civil rights movement.

I'm like, yeah, I know, of course. And you know what John Lewis did as he was getting his fucking head beat in on the on the Edmund Pettus bridge? He just sat there because he knew and Martin Luther King knew that Nonviolence which takes incredible discipline Also has the power to persuade people to say oh my gosh these civil rights protesters They are like the state they are getting beaten to within an inch of their lives And this is awful blah blah And then suddenly the tide of opinion changes and you pass the Civil Rights Act and you pass the Voting Rights Act And does it fix everything? Absolutely not. Is the system still fucked? Yes, but like that's how change actually happens in this country

That's how progress happens and and the non-violent of that movement that was the heart of the Civil Rights Movement was a strategy It wasn't it didn't just happen. It was a strategy. It took discipline it took like, you know responding to beatings and violence with Peaceful protests is really fucking hard and it took a long time, but it's a lot better than descending into civil war I'm gonna be a little less generous to your critics than you are because there's a poll that came out recently about Approval of Luigi's actions in this murder Assassination and and if you break it down by age, oh, yeah recently about approval of Luigi's actions in this murder, assassination. And if you break it down by age, it's just reverse. Like it's just reverse.

Like the oldest, it has the lowest approval among the elderly, you know, slightly more, but not really very much among Gen X, slightly more, concerningly slightly more, but still not very high among our people, the millennials. And then, well not Tommy, he's Gen X. And then- That's awesome. A big amount of support, like a third to 40% depending on the poll among Gen Z. And so the people that have the least actual exposure to the healthcare system.

Yeah, because if you're, if you're under 26, you can be on your parents' health insurance thanks to the affordable care. Yeah, that's right. Right. They're the ones with the most righteous rage. I, that just doesn't fucking square for me. Like, I know, I know that there are people under

26 or under 30 that have had horrible experiences with the healthcare system with through their parents or through themselves or their friends? Certainly some. But like, just the math doesn't work. It's scale. If the healthcare system is so horrible and oppressive and where it's such a horrendous state that vigilante assassinations are necessary, then you would think that the people that have had to experience the trauma of that

for the longest and the most acutely, the people with the most health problems, old people would share the view. To me, it seems like there is at least some bandwagon effect. Maybe there's some genuine rage among Gen Z, but then there is a bandwagon effect that is very real and alarming. A few things. One, I saw those polls and first it could be the polling, like sometimes people give trollish responses to pollsters

and so you could have a polling issue there, and it's a subsample. Gen Z is most likely to troll the pollsters. Right, well it's like you got an Emerson poll and it's a sub sample of how many voters in an Emerson poll that's 18 to 29. So like, whatever. But what is different about Gen Z from all the other generations in that poll, which is those older generations, like they remember domestic disorder and chaos and even violence in this country and elsewhere, right? Like they lived through, the oldest lived through World War II, then there was the Cold

War, then there was, you know, the civil rights movement in this country, right? In the late 60s and the 70s. So like older people, like they know, they know what violence can do. They know what chaos can do. I think the younger folks, they're also like social media and their phones is a big part of this. And first of all, that generation is, they are struggling with affordability and costs in a way that makes them feel a lot of despair, right?

When you layer onto that, that everything they see on their phones is outrage taking to an 11, everything's at an 11 all the time. It's doom, It's climate existentialism Right, like we're not going to have a planet anymore We shouldn't have kids and like this is this is what's showing up in people's feeds Over and over and over again, and I think that puts you in a place of nihilism where you think fuck it

You know, whatever problem there is in your life It's magnified by what you see on your phone and then you think, okay, well, I have this problem and also everything seems dark, everything seems terrible. Like the, you know, we're all doomed, the apocalypse is coming. So like, you know, some insurance executive gets killed, who the fuck cares? I like that. I think that's the sentiment.

Okay. One more thing on this for you. It relates back to Elon And this is something I really struggle with as at the norms loving never Trump are is I think one thing that is objectively True is that the Democrats cannot continue to be the party of the status quo. That's like we have to protect Yes, these institutions. We've got to save and defend them. This hurts me because I think the institutions are working pretty good. They're not perfect. They're pretty good. I still have my small C conservative inside me somewhere, which is like, maybe we should

just keep the good stuff and not rock the boat too much, you know, because what comes next might be worse, you know? And yet I recognize that politically that's not very potent right now to say the least. So how can the Democrats regain this mantle of challenging the status quo, of being rebellious without becoming the party of vigilante assassination? I mean we ran a campaign like this in 2008 that worked really well. You know people look back on it as hope and change and all that, but there was a huge reform element to the way that Obama talked, his agenda. We talked about lobbyist money, corporate PAC money.

We talked about fixing Washington, Washington being broken. I think that we can be a party that wants to reform and fix a broken system as opposed to the other party that seems intent on tearing the system down and then, you know, presiding over the ashes. And because I don't think that's going to work for anyone, like it's going to feel good to just destroy the whole system. Maybe that's what you want, but in its place, you're not going to get anything. You're just going to get a bunch of people who are going to make themselves rich and

do a bunch of corruption. Get some cool coins. Get some alt coins. Yeah, right. Yeah, and maybe it's going to be fun for people like Elon to watch the whole thing, right? Maybe it's going to be entertaining for you. It's going to be entertaining for them, certainly. They're going to get rich.

You're going to be pretty fucked. So I think the alternative is just acknowledging what is broken about the system and pledging to fight relentlessly to fix it and to reform it. And this is what I think we have to do. And I think we've, we've, you know, walked away from that at times. Like we have not had the last four years, the message was not the system is broken and we're doing everything we can to fix it. That was just, that was not the message of the Biden administration. It wasn't the message of the Biden administration. It wasn't the message of the 2020 primary really,

except for like Bernie and Warren and people like that. But that's not, it wasn't focused on the system and it wasn't focused on like, okay, how do we reform this so that it actually works for everyone? Speaking of Joe Biden, the Wall Street Journal had a story yesterday talking about how they were managing his age inside the administration.

Early in the administration, there was a directive that meetings should be short. They tried to make them later in the day. The Democratic chairman of the Armed Services Committee, Adam Smith, said he never got Biden on the phone one time. So he talked to Obama several times when he was a much less senior congressman. Jim Himes said the same. So these are Democrats on the record. Cabinet meetings were tightly scripted and barely happened. Donors noticed the decline on calls. Staff wouldn't show them bad news, I guess. We're showing them clips.

So it was only good news, according to the story. I'm mad about this. I was thinking this morning, when I think about the biggest political fuckups of my life, non-Donald Trump category, I was really thinking about this. And I decided that George W going into Iraq was the one, two and three. It has the entire podium on the biggest fuckups of my life. Mitch McConnell not convicting Donald Trump in January of 2021 was number four. And Biden's selfish behavior this year is number five or number three,

depending on how you want to count it. I think it was just absolutely catastrophic and I'm pretty enraged by it. I'm wondering what you thought reading the Wall Street Journal story. I completely agree with your ranking. I'm actually, I'm glad that you put Iraq and McConnell first.

That was that, you did some thinking there. I'm glad I didn't just fire off. Yeah, of course it was the worst of my lifetime because I might've, I'm so mad that I might've. But you might've put a so mad that I might have. I went through every administration in my mind. I was like, I didn't really count. I was eight for us six for Reagan when he raised that. So I was like, HW Clinton.

It's like Monica. No, this is worse than my W Obama. I was like, this is right after, right after Bush and McConnell. The key in that piece to everyone knows how I feel about Joe Biden at this point. I've been very open about that and his decisions over the last several years. The key line in that piece to me was, is, oh, he has some good days and bad days. And I do think that the good day, bad day thing is why there was no moment where everyone was like, he's got to step down, he can't run again. Because every time he would freak people out close to him

that dealt with him all the time, then the next time they see him, he would be fine. And then they would tell themselves, okay, well, we should just keep moving forward. But the people, look, there's a lot of people in the White House, a lot of people in the administration. The vast majority of them did not have a lot of contact with Joe Biden.

You got to remember too, even the first two years of his administration, like they were all working, a lot of contact with Joe Biden. You got to remember, too, even the first two years of his administration, like, they were all working, a lot of them were working remotely. They weren't even in the White House because of COVID. But the small circle, and the piece talks about this, the small circle of people around Joe Biden that did not push him and were not honest with him about how he was diminishing, about how he was making a selfish decision, about how he should have looked what the polling says, looked what the bad news says.

Like, that's who I'm most angry at, really. You know, when you are the president, you are sort of ensconced in this little bubble, and you do rely on, like, your advisors to tell you the truth about you, the truth about what the country thinks about you, what's going on out there. And those people did not do that. They just didn't do it. And now we have Trump again.

I sat and thought about this too, their advisors this morning for a little bit. And I was like, I thought about myself. I put myself in their shoes. It's hard to put myself in the shoes of people that were with them for 30 years. I never had that type of relationship. But there was a second layer of people too. And I was like, I probably would have tried to position him as best as possible up until that debate. I probably would have done the same things up until that debate, I think.

I probably would have been wrong to do it. But I think I probably would have. But there's no way that, and I can say this because I did it in 2012. I went out and I said to a boss, I was like, no, I'm not going to go out and do this. I was like, I probably would have. But there's no way that, and I can say this because I did it in 2012. I went out and I said to boss, I was like, no, I'm not going to go out and do this. I was like, I would not have gone out and spun like, Oh, did you see the rally? The rally in Norfolk, like how vigorous he was. I wouldn't have done it. I wouldn't have done it. I would have quit. And nobody quit. Like nobody quit. Nobody pushed him. Nobody forced it. Like Some of them spoke on background of the New York Times, I guess was maybe the best thing he could do. From that, and then to me, the grave sin of all this is that the thing that makes me the most

upset really is that he, the selfishness continued, continues to now, right now. It continues right now to December 20th. When he finally came to terms with the fact that he needed to drop out, he needed to bring the vice president into the Oval Office or wherever they meet to Delaware and be like, kid, you do what you need to fucking do. All right? You push the old guy onto the train, like we got to save this country. You do what you need to do. That's what he needed to do.

And he did the opposite. Like the whole year he was like, they were whining to people that Kamala wasn't giving him enough credit. And like now after the election, he seems like they've been nicer to Trump than they've been to Kamala in the post-election. Fundamentally, I don't think he gets it. And I just saw his interview with Midas Touch. He sat down with that podcast, Midas Touch, that's a big podcast on the left. It was a tough interview, but it was also like, even if you get past the performance in the interview

or what did he do, whatever, just his message is like nothing has changed, right? Which is just in his mind, I did some good things and I wanted to have America be more respected in the world, check, really? I wanted to- Unite the country. He gave himself a check on uniting the country.

Yeah, unite the country. I wanted to just give, you know, working people on more opportunity check and they've convinced themselves that the CHIPS Act and the infrastructure bill like fixed the entire economy and now there's... It's just, it's wild to me. And like, I think that legislatively, they did some really great things, but it's before the debate. There was a time early on in that administration where they were already comparing them to FDR, and they were like, we have learned the lessons of the Obama administration, and we're not going to make those mistakes. We're going to make the stimulus even bigger this time, and we're going to sell it unlike

those guys. They did all that. The thing that really got me was after the midterms they looked at the midterm results and they thought that those midterm results pointed to Joe Biden winning in 2024 because Democrats did better than expected and Democrats lost the house popular vote and lost the house popular vote but because we hung on to a bunch of senate seats lost also lost you're right let vote, but because we hung on to a bunch of Senate seats. Lost the House also. Lost the, right. Lost the House.

But because we lost by less, it wasn't a red wave, right? Because we lost by less. It must be because Joe Biden is such a popular president that the polls are wrong. And, and then we're going to run him again in, in 2024. And it is one thing for blue and on Libs on Twitter to believe that, whatever, don't fault them for it because they don't have all the data. The people who have the data who know, who know that a midterm electorate is nothing like a general electorate, they should have fucking known.

And instead they took those results as like, no, no, no, these results prove that Joe Biden should run again. I mean, that to me was the, that was the original set. Do you wish you had ranted about it more? Earlier? Do you think that would have helped? We were talking about this on our last Pots of America yesterday.

And it's like, you know, you go back and we would, the way that we would talk about it is, no one is challenging him. Well, you know, Love it and I had a pretty tough conversation with Dean Phillips here. Yeah. I had an apology to Dean Phillips. I did a public apology. I did too. And I saw him at the convention, but you know, Lovett and I had a pretty tough conversation with Dean Phillips here. Yeah, I had an apology to Dean Phillips. I did a public apology. I did too, and I saw him at the convention. But, you know, my point to Dean Phillips was like,

your diagnosis of the problem is correct. I do not think that you are the solution, because I just don't think that would have worked either. But like I said to Dean, I'm like, I share your concerns about his age, but like, look around. No one else is stepping up. His advice and it's Joe Biden's decision to make. We can blame a whole bunch of other people.

And I do blame like the again, the close, close advisors. But like at the end of the day, Joe Biden had a decision to make. He's the president of the United States. He has free will. He has agency. He could have decided not to run. He chose to run. That's, that's, that's it.

You're right. The message in that Midas Touch interview was just like, again, I think that's maybe the frustrating thing. It's like, I think I cared more. I can't care, I think I believed it like more, the democracy stuff than he actually believed it. I think that he cared more about his legacy than that.

And that's very disappointing. And I think that- Well, you know what was most revealing was during that George Stephanopoulos interview after the terrible debate when Stephanopoulos was like well if you don't drop out and you run and you lose like how are you going to feel if Donald Trump wins again he's going to say and Biden said I'll feel like I did my my goodest I did my best. Oh yeah.

And when he said that I was like oh, oh, really? That's not, you did your best? Oh, brother, Fabro. Yeah, it's tough. And then people are like, well, I don't, you know, I get it. So we were like, I don't want to hear about this. I don't want to talk about this. But I'm like, I'm still, you know, probably when I'm 80 years old, I'm still going to be talking about all three of the things on the list there. Yep.

You know, like Iraq was quite a while ago as well. It still comes up from time to time. The Mitch McDonnell thing, I mean, if I see Josh Holmes at age 75 walking down the street, I'm gonna be pointing my bony little finger in his chest. They're like, you did this. So, you know, that's just me. Maybe that's not it.

Some people move on, that's just me. All right. I've set you up for the crying now. You're emotional, you're mad at Joe Biden. You're thinking about the healthcare murder. When you started keeping it at 1600, Barack Obama was still president. Yeah. So that was a while ago.

How are you feeling about all this? Yes. You know, like, you know, if George Stephanopoulos has Joe Biden, how would you feel at the end of the election? How do you, how did you, how do you feel about doing all this every day? I feel, I feel pretty bad, pretty bad. No, I really did do some thinking because this wasn't a surprise, right? Not that I expected Donald Trump to win, but because we all knew that it was a very real possibility. I genuinely believe this was

a coin toss. I had an opportunity to really think about the reaction and what my reaction would be and how I would feel. And I'm an Obama person through and through, and so I will always be hopeful. But I am much less hopeful than I was when I started that campaign or when I left the White House or even when I started keeping it 1600. And that is a hard thing to wrestle with the state of the world right now. But it's sort of like, you know, what I was saying to you before. The only way I can see through this is to take everything one day at a time and to believe that we still have the capacity to change, change our minds,

change the way we behave, change the country. And that is, it's very possible that's just not true, but deciding it's not true now, like sends us into this nihilistic place, which I can't go to. There's no appeal to that for you? There's no appeal to that for me.

Like, look, I've, I think since I was a child, I was always been like the, I've tried to be the diplomat and the peacemaker. I was like that in my family. It's probably why I worked for Barack Obama. Being a speechwriter requires a lot of diplomacy and a lot of bringing it. This person wants this edit, this one's the other edit.

How are people going to think about the speech? How's it going to land with this group and that group? So like, that's just like, it's in my DNA. And if I give that up, I don't know what I have, man. I don't have much else. It's been like, it's been like a guiding principle of my entire life and career. And I feel like, I don't know.

I feel like the idea of America is, this will sound extremely cheesy, but like, I think it's worth, it's still worth fighting for. And it is an idea. It's an idea. You're sure. You haven't had a moment of doubt in the last month that the American idea is an American idea worth fighting for. I mean, look, the founders, you know, we're all created equal, right? The idea that everyone is created equal, that everyone deserves life, liberty,

and the pursuit of happiness, like it sounds cheesy, whatever, it is a radical idea. It is a radical idea. And one of the reasons it's a radical idea is because the people who wrote it had slaves. And so like, so right off the bat, we didn't start off too well in this country. We had this like, we had this great ideal

and it was not matched in practice in any way. And throughout our history, we have fucked up time and time and time again. But there are also times when we have moved forward and made progress. It has happened over and over and over again. And the idea that this founding principle is still the best way to organize society and organize a country, which I do believe I

Still think it's worth fighting for I still think that you can change people's minds. I do Your hopes not capped though. Here you say, okay sure. Yeah, sir. I still have hope I still hope things are better but like is it is there not something fundamentally changed about your idea? Do you feel like you've lost some of your capacity for it? David We just baptized my one-year-old, our one-year-old, Teddy. We got really lucky.

The person who baptized Teddy is a guy by the name of Father Greg Boyle, runs Homeboy Industries here in Los Angeles. And Jesuit, a great Jesuit. It's a rehabilitation program for former gang members and people who are incarcerated. Pete I forgot we have that in common. You were in Jebby too. David Yeah, I'm a Jesuit, a great Jesuit. It's a rehabilitation program for former gang members and people who are incarcerated. I forgot we have that in common. You're a Jebby too. Yeah, I'm a Jesuit. And so is Father Greg.

So is the Pope now, right? We got a Jesuit Pope, great. And Father Greg, who by the way, is a huge Bulwark fan afterwards that we were talking and he said he's a big Bulwark fan. So, well yeah. What's up, Father Greg? But the saying that he loves is we are more than

the worst thing we've ever done. And that is a deep belief in the possibility of redemption, of change, of grace, of being able to, like, we all have the capacity for good and the capacity for evil. I do believe that. And so, I think there are evil acts, but like, you know, people can always have their minds changed and some people might never have their minds changed. You're going to get your Donald Trumps, you're going to get your Elon Musk's, right? That's humanity. But I also think it is entirely possible to go out there and talk to people and change their minds.

And by the way, that is the only option. To me, it's just two choices, right? There's giving up or there's trying. And trying might lead you to failure. And if you ask me to predict, is it more likely to lead to failure in this political environment in our country right now? I would say yes, for sure.

But like, what does that prediction matter at this point? It doesn't matter. What matters is whether you decide to try or not try. That's all that matters. It doesn't matter what you think's going to happen or what you predict. All that matters is what you're doing right now. A more favorish, hopeful podcast host would end on grace.

That'd be a good place to end, but I want to take one more pass at you about trying to, I want to try to rip this hope from your soul one more time before we go to Christmas. Okay, cool, cool, cool. So Teddy. I'm good. It's just something I just thought about for the first time this week. Teddy, when he goes to school in like five years and they have the,

they have the, on the wall, they got the picture of the presidents. Donald Trump's going to be on there two times. Yeah. Yeah, he is. Two times. So like, he's going to look up there and it it's gonna be like, look at this, look at this great list of white men who fought for everybody's right for liberty and pursuit of happiness, equality, these great people that you're supposed to aspire to, and the worst person in the country, like really America's worst human, only two of the last three. Yeah.

And you know what I'm going to say? I'm going to say that is America and this other guy in between there, Barack Obama, he's America too and John Lewis is America and so is George Wallace. And we are a, we contain multitudes and this is a country that has never lived up to the ideals of its founding that are still worth fighting for. And there is pain in this country and there is misery and suffering and evil and there is also good and kindness and compassion. And that is the country we earn and by the way you have a say in what happens because we have agency and no matter how dark it gets we have agency and so that's what I want to teach my kids.

That's the best you can go. You're a good dad, seriously. I was hoping though in unseriousness to get you to downgrade America in the Obama spirit. Like, we're just, Belgians think the Belgians are great too. You know, Malaysians think Malaysia is great too. Like, we're just not actually that special. I was trying to get you to downgrade us in the spirit of what from whence you came. But no, you're still feeling the American exceptionalism in there.

The exceptionalism I feel is more for the ideals than it is for the country itself. And I think that those ideals should be universal, right, in other countries as well. Treat your neighbor like you want to treat yourself is like a precept of almost every single religion through human history. Can't be a coincidence that they all came around to that one. And so I think that these are like universal principles that aren't just about America, that's about like how we organize the world. And so that's what keeps me going. What are you and Teddy doing for Christmas?

We're here. We're here in Los Angeles. Charlie, Teddy, me, Emily. It's an LA Christmas. Emily's parents are in town. They're staying with us. My parents live here. So my brother lives here.

So we're all going to do Christmas at the Favre's. A Favreau family Christmas. Yeah. Where are you going? You're going skiing? I'm going to Vail. I'm going to go skiing. I'm going to be off. It's going to be offline with Tim Miller.

That's great. I mean, we'll see. I was going to say, you're not going to be, you're like, you're as bad as me. I'm the worst. You're the only one, of all the people at Pod Save America, Bulwer, all the people we talked to, you and I, we're the most online.

We are the worst. How many times has somebody sent you a text that was like, hey, have you seen this or you haven't seen it? Never. Never. Yeah, never. I appreciate all of you, all my friends out there,

they're like, ooh, have you seen this story? Yes. Have you seen this? Yes. I fucking seen it, okay? I'm online, all right? I'm online. Pfeiffer is close.

Pfeiffer is close to us, but he's been sort of falling off in recent weeks, so it's really me and you. I'm gonna, all right? I'm online as well. Pfeiffer is close. Pfeiffer is close to us, but he's been sort of falling off in recent weeks. So it's really me and you. I'm going to tell you this. This is what I'm going to do. And this is a step up for me. I'm not going to bring it onto the mountain. That's good.

How about that? Like at lunch, when I'm skiing, I'm not going to be on Twitter. So that's it. I still will probably be tweeting on- That's fine. Christmas night after I've had a few drinks. But we're looking for progress there. We're not looking for big swings, just progress.

All right. John Favreau, thank you so much for a good show, a long show, kind of a meaty show for everybody. Since I'm gone next week, people needed every single second of this and I hope they enjoyed it. Everybody else, you have a Merry Christmas. We'll see you back here Monday. What will it be? Monday, December 29th. Cause the bulwark we work, you know, okay, this is America. We work here.

We have the good old fashioned Republican work ethic. Jon Favre will be back for you with Pods of America. I don't know what, February 14th or something after a little French. January 6th. We're back. January 6th. You can get your celebration. Yeah. We'll be wild.

Bye, Tim. We'll see y'all later. It's the coldest time of winter And I shiver when I see the falling snow If we make it through December Got plans to be in a warmer town come summertime Maybe even California If we make it through December we'll be fine God laid off at the factory Their timing's not the greatest in the world We are now at the I don't mean to hate December It's meant to be the happy time of year And my little girl don't understand Why we can't afford no Christmas here If we make it through December Everything's gonna be alright, I know

It's the coldest time of winter And I shiver when I see the falling snow If we make it through December God plans to be in a warmer town come summertime Maybe even California If we make it through December we'll be fine Maybe even California If we make it through December we'll be fine The Bullork Podcast is produced by Katy Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown