The Bulwark Podcast - Jonathan V. Last: Burning Things Down

Episode Date: September 1, 2025

Red States are flexing their muscles and imposing their will on the other states through their coordinated redistricting efforts. And if they deploy their Guard troops to other blue cities beyond D.C., the only real precedent would be the era before the Civil War when the South tried to force more slave states on the union. Meanwhile, the infighting at the CDC over the Covid vaccine seems to be upsetting Trump, but what can he do about it? He's only the president. And in China, a new axis of authoritarians is creating a post-American world order, thanks to voters putting Trump back in office. Plus, his faux golf outings and declarations of perfect health are very Soviet, and Giuliani wants people to think 'America's Mayor' is back—this time as Batman. JVL joins Tim Miller. show notes "The Triad," JVL's newsletter "The Secret Podcast," with Sarah and JVL Jon Cohn on the crisis at the CDC in his 'Breakdown' newsletter Bulwark Live in DC and NYC at https://www.thebulwark.com/p/bulwark-events. Toronto is SOLD OUT Go to Dupe.com today and find similar products for less. It’s 100% free to use. Stop wasting money on brand names and start saving with Dupe.com today.

Hello and welcome to the Bullard podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is Monday. I promised you a Labor Day podcast on Friday with Bill Crystal as usual. But we have some scheduling snafus. We have a sub. Bill Crystal is the editor at large. We brought in instead the editor in large.

the editor in charge JVL Jonathan V. Last. How you know, man? What is an editor at large? What does that? I don't even really know what that means. I think it means he just goes where he wants and does what he pleases.

You know what? I can do my best Bill Crystal bit for you. If it'll make everybody feel more comfortable. Jim, yeah, as, you know, I remember having lunch with Bella Abzug once and, you know, back in the day. It was, I don't know. I don't know where it goes from there.

All of these stories somehow are, and then I was having coffee with Lionel Trilling, right? Yeah, he does have lunch and coffee, and increasingly more recently, Zooms, or I was on a call, you know, I was on a call with some feckless Democrats, you know, anyway, we talked a little bit about you on Friday's pod with Tom Nichols. Oh, I heard that. Yeah, you've been writing some dark triads, even for you this past week. it looks like Friday's triad newsletter, which everyone should sign up for the Borg.com, is about how simple systems

fall apart and how you think we might be reaching a tipping point for liberal democracy. So that's an uplifting piece of material. On Thursday you had Trump was waging war against the government and then he's going to wage war against the people. You know, it's pretty heavy material.

You and Sarah hash this out a little bit on Friday on the secret podcast, but why don't you just give us, you know, you've how to cut maybe maybe you got a little vitamin D this weekend I don't know I'm just wondering where your head's at on the autocracy watch I'd like to start there uh I mean it's gotten worse I think I look I should just say and Sarah and I talked about this on Friday uh I think the last couple weeks have been really bad really bad and I went and looked up something I wrote in early January before Trump had been been sworn in since the election I had done a couple of like hey maybe

it won't be so bad. And here's what it would look like if we kind of dodge a bullet here pieces. And they were, you know, like, hey, he doesn't mean any of this stuff about tariffs or deportations. He really just wants to golf and be popular. And right. Redesign the White House. You know, we've had a couple of those things. Like, if you was just focusing on golfing and, you know, doing the oba pan remodel of the Rose Garden, then that would have been nice. Right. So I then I then wrote a sort of like, all right, so what does the worst case scenario look like? And I said, you know, obviously the worst case scenario was always nuclear holocaust and we all die. But let's, you know, let's not look at the 99th percentile worst case. Let's look at like the 90th percentile worst

case, you know, that doesn't go all the way to like everyone's dead. And I sort of outlined what it would look like. And I think we're way past that. Way past? Yeah, I think we're pretty far past that. National Guard in the cities, military in cities, like massed federal agents just grabbing people off the streets, using third countries as places to deport to, which is one of the reasons I did not believe that he would be able to do mass deportations is because you have to have somebody willing to accept them, right? And, you know, I just thought like Mexico isn't going to take 15 million people like that's that doesn't work like I mean just logistically and the answer that he's come up with is oh we can just pay Uganda in Sudan and El

Salvador to take people and jail them for us that's something I hadn't I hadn't foreseen so I think I think things are are worse and I'll just preview something I'm I'm thinking through tomorrow for for the Tuesday triad what we are seeing it's going to be a pick me up It's not. It's not. So, I don't know if you saw Missouri is thinking about redistricting. Yeah. Yeah.

Missouri is going to happen. Yeah, Indiana is going to more of a question. Missouri is going to happen. But they're only, so we'll only take one seat only one. But it's not really the number of seats. Yeah. It's the idea that red states can begin imposing their will on the rest of the states. And this is the redistricting thing.

We see this a little bit with some of the abortion laws, which criminalize people for stuff they do in other states. Yeah, travel. Right. So if you leave Texas to go and you get an abortion in California, then, you know, there are some laws trying to criminalize so they can arrest you when you come back. Sending your national guard, if you are West Virginia or South Carolina, to a place ruled by the other party that doesn't want you. there. And so far, it's just the district. We'll see. My point is that all of this starts to look like what we had before the Civil War when slave states were actively going and trying to bring more slave states into the union because what they wanted to do is impose their will in the northern

states and vice versa. And I mean, that to me starts to look really dangerous, right? I mean, And we're in a world where all the red states are going to start redistricting sort of in a semi-coordinated manner in order to try to steamroll at the federal level, the representation of blue states. That's a real us versus them dynamic. And when you throw in the national guard and like red states sending national guard, if you wind up having like South Carolina sending their national guard into Illinois or something. I mean, gee, like, I just don't know. Am I crazy? Do I sound like a crazy person? Yeah, it depends on what you think, what you're saying, what the implications are of that.

There's a lot of subjects. The implications are, I don't know. Yeah, right. Right. I mean, the implications are like, this feels like lighting the fuse on something that we don't know what happens when the fuse finally goes off. Does that make sense? No, I mean, I agree with that.

You know, like, obviously we had COVID, which killed a million people. But, like, in a weird way, we got kind of lucky in the first term, right? that like there wasn't there was no crisis really until the last 10 months right and so it took a little time for that all to build up and it's also he's in a re-election right so there was some countervailing incentives for him right in that in that moment of the final year right and like you just imagine kind of the black lives matter like the george floyd situation now or something worse than that and yeah i do think that the um the potential risk there is is just extremely high and like much, much different than what we experienced the first time through.

But, you know, I don't know. We could get lucky again. How many more days we have left? We could get lucky. So I, you know, the counterbrain. And I should say, like, I'm not saying civil war. Because I mean, I don't think, again, the divide is rural and urban, educated and educated. Like, it isn't a geographical divide. So I don't think. But what I'm saying is these things look like acts of aggression from one part of the country against another part of the country in ways which are the only precedent is like, you know, the 1850s. Anyway, quick plug, become a Blerc Plus member so you can listen to these deep thoughts from JV on Sarah on every Friday.

But just I listen to Friday's secret. The argument you're basically making also is just that like it's hard to unwind this stuff then. Oh, yeah. Well, that I just don't see how you unwind it. Yeah. And do you? No.

Because Sarah's like, we'll just build something better on top of it. I was like, uh, I don't know how it works. It's like, sure, I can think about ways to unwind it, right? like you have some extreme some you know white night charismatic outsider you know type democrat actually wins in 2028 and like it's a mandate to reorganize like the way these systems work and sure like i don't i don't know like you can imagine ways out of it but it's it's hard to see it practically and and i don't necessarily mean there's a way out of it like we live in permanent an autocracy. I'm not doing the Tucker thing where I think that we're going from one dictator to the

other. I just mean, like, there's a lot of these things that he is broken institutionally. Like, the one that I just keep coming back to is the DOJ. Like, the notion of an independent DOJ, I do not understand how that gets reconstituted, you know, right? I mean, maybe some new fresh thing could, right? But, like, you know, the next Democrat that comes in won't be able to act like Merrick Garland. Then the next Republican that comes in will overstate whatever the Democrat did and use it as a rationale for going even further than Trump. It just seems like a total race to the bottom on that. And like, yeah, losing an independent rule of law federal judicial system is a pretty

key cornerstone of liberal democracy, you know. See, I think it'll be the opposite. I think what we'll do is we'll have an independent justice department under Democratic administrations and not under Republican administrations. I mean, that's the- That's a better scenario than what I laid out. I mean, is it? I don't know.

barely. I don't see how Republicans don't do this with the Justice Department forever, right? Unless there are some really bad consequences for the people involved in this, which, spoiler, there won't be. Like, isn't this the norm for Republican governments? Isn't this just the table ante for if you are a Republican president? This is how your Justice Department has to function. Yes. I mean, you think that the next J.D. Vance government would be different. I just don't even know how you could imagine that. I just don't. You all ever fall head over heels for some furniture online and then you see the price and feel personally attacked. You know, when I feel this way, especially, rugs.

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It was right before COVID stuff. So at the time I was saying, you know, I get the question a lot, which is like, how do you? do this? How do you re-ravel the stuff back up? And I was always like, ah, you know, there'll be some external crisis and, you know, people will realize that we need grownups in the room. You know, like that was my answer, right? Like, something will happen that will, you know, shake the tectonic plates of our politics and, you know, we'll revert back to something. And like, then that happens and like the opposite happened, right? It sent people more, it radicalized people more. And so I don't really have hope for that anymore as the thing that we'll bring the Republicans back.

But here we got today, Jonathan Cohn is a great piece everybody should read about just like looking at what's happening within the CDC. He features one guy in particular, Dimitri, Descalacus, I apologize for not getting his memory. Dimitri. We're just going to call him our friend, Dimitri. Dimitri. We'll just call him Demetri. He was in charge of the CDC's division for immunization and respiratory disease, so obviously they had a huge influence over COVID vaccine and approvals and all that. is getting pushed out or pushing himself out basically because, you know, they were getting rid of essentially the COVID vaccine. There's certain people for whom getting the COVID booster

is still really important. I got a buddy that just got a COVID this weekend. She couldn't go out. She couldn't go out and about. This fight is happening internally. And you've got Trump now sending a post this morning. I have to read you, JVL. It's very important that the drug companies justify the success of their various COVID drugs. Many people think that they're a miracle that saved billions of lives. Others disagree. With CDC being ripped apart over this question, is that what it's being ripped apart over? I want the answer, and I want it now. I've been shown information from Pfizer and others that is extraordinary, but they never seem to show those results to the public. Why not? They go off on the next hunt and let everyone rip themselves apart, including Bobby Kennedy, Jr.

They show me great numbers and results, but they don't seem to be showing them to many others. What's even talking about? I want them to show them now. I hope Operation Warp Speed was brilliant, as many say it was. If not, we all want to know about it and why. I don't know what you want. He's not the president or anything. He's just a guy sitting there reading the news, same as anybody else. Look at this thing that's happening at the CDC.

It's being ripped apart by some force. It's kind of funny that ripping apart is happening within Trump. He wants to take credit for it so badly. But he also knows that he needs the quacks and the cranks, you know. And so, like, within a single bleat, he is, you know, he's vacillating back and forth. It's the most passive voice thing ever, right? Right. But meanwhile, like, and this goes back to kind of what you're on Thursday.

Within this administration, the inertia is to burning things down. Right. Like, Trump, no matter how much Trump wants to take credit for this, it's like the people with the power and the momentum are the cranks, the ones that want to tear down the institution. And so it's kind of like, what could Pfizer possibly put forth besides what has already been put forth that would change the momentum of this, right? The only way to change the momentum of this would be for Trump to say, actually, the CDC matters, I care about people's health. Bobby Kennedy's a quack. I don't want people randomly shooting off about mitochondrial shortages, you know, who aren't doctors making decisions about vaccines.

So we're going to push Bobby's side and bring in an actual professional. He's not going to do that. I'll be hopeful for a minute. I think the case of HHS and Bobby Kennedy is a very pure causal relationship to one guy, right? If Trump just puts generic MAGA grown up, you know, number one in that job, like Mick Mulvaney, right? Not even like a super grown up, but just like a good, super partisan Republican in there. Even Mark Meadows. Mark Meadows in charges of HHS.

None of this stuff happens. And it doesn't happen because Trump doesn't care about it. Like this, none of this is the will of Trump. This is all because this is Bobby Kennedy's personal obsessions and that Trump felt like he owed Kennedy something. That's all this is. If Kennedy were to drop dead of, you know, like he did so many pull-ups that his arms fell off, you know. And he just-H-H overdose. HGH overdose tomorrow.

This stuff could all go back to normal because it's just about him. And there is no, I mean, there are other cranks, but the other cranks don't have any sort of like political power behind them. And this isn't as far as I could tell something that anybody else in the administration, does Christy Nome give a shit about this? Does J.D. Vance give a shit about this? I don't think so. I mean, they might have anti-VAC sympathies, but not enough to. But at this point, though, here's the problem. At this point, he's already hired like the Means family.

And some other random, like, weirdos from Silicon Valley, you know, who have decided that, like, the right thing to do is just do antibiotic steroids and green juice. Sure. Like, that's the thing that everyone should be doing. It's like they're now in. And what? These doctors are going to come back? Like, let's say he did. Let's say he did.

Say, Bobby, this is embarrassing. You know, this is how Trump responds sometimes to certain things. Like some rich guy's wife has cancer and is in Florida and can't get the COVID back. anymore. And so he calls Trump and he's like, what the fuck? My wife is dying and she can't or probably more likely, I'm dying. I don't know if the trouble care about the wife. I'm dying and I can't get the COVID back. This is crazy. And Trump's like, oh, screw you, Bobby, you know, and he has someone else fire him because he doesn't fire anybody. Do you think Dimitri's coming back? Do you think that the, you know what I mean? Isn't it too late? I don't think Dimitri's coming back,

but you could hold the status quo where it is, right? And ratchet back some. of the other stuff. And here's, here's why I was being hopeful. What if Trumpism is like that? No, I don't think it is. Like if Trump and Bobby just both went away. Trump, what if Trump goes away? Yeah. You know, because he just decides it's too much work. He wants to retire. I don't really believe that. But this is the, again, me trying to be quasi-hopful that maybe some of this stuff is really idiosyncratic and is really tied to the single figure who has gathered behind him a tremendous amount of popular power and political power. Maybe things can be okay. I don't know. I think that some of Trump's idiosynchronicities, that's not the right

word, but whatever. People know what I'm trying to get. It's a holiday weekend. Like, you know, the Putin love might go away, right, at some level. Maybe not. You know, I don't know. Some of, like, Trump's random, like, obsessions, maybe. But I think the broader authoritarian nationalist populist project is still continues apace. I think so too. I think so too. I was just trying to be. I appreciate that. You said things could be hopeful. I thought you were going with the things that could be helpful in the CDC is that, you know, maybe some people, maybe some people suffer the consequences of their own health choices. I thought that's what it's going to be your, your optimism. No. And to be clear, I think that will be terrible when it happens. But, you know, life is red

in tooth and claw, right? I mean, this is like, we have, we have spent a lot of money in America trying to insulate people from the consequences of, uh, of their decisions. And maybe it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world for people to see them again. I don't know. I'm just talking out loud here. Is it crazy that like an anti-vax maniac, like fired 500 bullets at the CDC, like two weeks ago or something? And like we just, just by the, just by luck, the one security guard died, you know, God love them, RIP, and that's awful, but like because it was only one person and we live in a country where we have like mass shootings all the time, like one death doesn't really merit like big news anymore. And so like simultaneously we have this total like insane person who's been radicalized by a specific political movement shooting literal bullets at the CDC while the president and the head of HHS are dismantling CDC from the inside. And that story, just goes away. In different years, that would be the biggest story of the year. Yeah. I mean, I feel like that almost every day, almost literally. That's why the last two weeks were so hard for

me personally, because I felt like every single day there was something that I thought, well, shit, this would have been the biggest story of the year. You know, this would be a defining moment. And it's just, you know, it's just another day that ends in why. Yeah. In 1997, people would have had like CDC ribbons. Oh my gosh. Can you imagine? Yeah. Yeah. The double weirdness of, you know, a guy who's shooting up the CDC at the same moment that the CDC is being realigned to his priorities. Do you see him? Like, that's the double weirdness of, you have to imagine if you're on the inside of it and you're like a normal human being, you know, just going to work every day. You feel like you're getting it going

to work. You feel like getting it from both sides. Yeah. Right. You have this fifth column, which is now in charge of your organization. And you have also literal people on the outside shooting at your organization because you're not already. But it's just, it's bad. But your question is, how does that go back together? I don't think it does. I mean, for one of the one reason, we're going to get a whole bunch of studies

coming out of the government around health and science over the next three years, three and a half years. We're not going to be able to trust any of them, right? Any study that comes out of HHS that Bobby Kennedy has put his stamp on, nobody can't mean we saw the the first thing they put out that was like written by AI right it is going to be like the bureau labor statistics and like what does that mean when the federal government is no longer a trusted clearinghouse just for basic information and data like I just don't know like so what so we then say on January 21 2029 okay now we can

all trust the federal government again trust us how does that like that doesn't work and then people also don't think about the other stuff which is then the bad faith treatment like Again, let's say a Democrat wins. Let's say somebody who's committed to re, to changing, to fixing the institutions, which I think would be a pretty probably not politically potent campaign strategy. But let's say it works because things are so bad and they will get in anyway. And then they try to fix it. It's like, okay, well, what if inevitably that, when that CDC fucks up?

Because they'll do something wrong because we're still humans, right? Even when the adults are in charge, they still make mistakes. And we saw this during COVID, right? then the radical, you know, fifth column within, the people that are still there. And then on the outside, you know, you use that to undermine their credibility again. And then eventually the other side, right, like that, that was really more your point. Not that like, we are in a dictatorship now permanently, but like that these, these problems, you know, like the thing, the trust that underpinned the liberal democratic society, like, once broken is. That's gone.

And that's that, like, simple complex system thing. Hey, y'all, I warned you, I warned you, our Toronto show has sold out. The Canadians love Sam Stein so much that, you know, there are lines around the block to get tickets to it. But the good news is we still have tickets left for our live shows in Washington, D.C. And in New York coming up in early October. So go get those tickets now at the bulwark.com slash events. I'm missing LSU versus South Carolina for you guys. I'm going to be in New York for that.

And so assuming that's an afternoon game, I might have a couple of bourbons in me by the time we get on stage on Saturday night. So that one could be a rowdy one. So if you're looking for an excuse to get to the Big Apple, go see a show Friday night, come see us Saturday night. Could be a fun little weekend. Go get tickets.

Like I said, thebork.com slash events. Thebork.com slash events. See you all soon. While we're doing health stuff, just do you have any hot takes really quick on Trump? Wasn't out that much this weekend. He didn't look great going to the golf course. We saw two pictures of him.

He looked a little feeble. He was going to golf. I noticed we didn't get any pictures of him golfing. We just got him in the motorcade back and forth. He did post a bunch yesterday, including never felt better in my life, all caps. So I think that, does that settle it for you? Yeah, a couple things. First of all, during the cabinet meeting, you noticed the great lengths he took to keeping that one hand underneath the table.

That was the thing he did. Two, I mean, during the Cold War, the CIA had an entire division, which all it did was keep track of pictures of members of the Politburo to try to figure out their health. Like, you know, oh, is Volkotnikov? Is he sick? Does he look like he have his cancer? What is his life expectancy? They're doing their own actuarial work because they're trying to understand what the dynamics looks like. And that has now come to America.

Like, we, we are now, we sit around. And the only health reports we get from the president are obviously ridiculous, right? You know, we thought, oh, he, you know, he only weighs 220 pounds, really, right? He's in the best, the most spectacular health ever. He can throw a spiral better than Joe Burrow. Just, right. And so none of this, none of this stuff can be taken in face value because, again, And that is clear, like, living in a dictatorship type stuff.

And we now live in a world where when this president goes dark for 72 hours, people got to be like, is he dead? Because we're living in, like, the Kremlin of 1980. Are you, like, freaked out by this? Because this fact really, really makes me, like, This is dictatorship stuff. Like, this is not normal democracy. Yeah, no, it's obviously not normal, and it's very strange to live in the situation.

And you would have thought that people would have rebelled against it in a greater way than they have. I mean, I don't know. Why would I be freaked out by it? Does Trump's health, you know, good luck? Did you see J.D. last week? Yeah, talking about how he's ready. God forbid. God forbid.

How do you think Trump takes that? I think probably okay for now, just because J.D. has just, been such a slavish suck up. But I don't know. Maybe he starts to get thoughts. Has he been? I don't know. He sort of, he didn't like the idea of bombing Iran. Again, he's used a couple public formulations of Trump with regard to both Iran and the Epstein files, which were instead of just like, I support him, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's, he's really earned the benefit of the doubt. He thinks he's clever. Maybe I'm just being paranoid. But if I was Trump, I would look at that and be like, hey, dude, get in line.

I would just say, what I actually think is happening is that Trump needed rest because he, he's a 79 years old, and he's been keeping a really pretty heavy schedule. People need to remember that he is actually a human being. Like, he's not like a villain from one of the superhero movies that you watch. Cancels. A friend of mine said, we are going to wind up being like the Cuban people who spent 20 years waiting for Castro to die. Oh, for sure.

And that then when it turns out he does die, it's so late in the day that it doesn't matter. Yeah. Oh, no, definitely. I 100% agree with that. I think he likely will outlive me. It's like a fucking lizard person. We had some actual news. I want to talk to you about.

There was a summit in China over the weekend. Putin, Modi, Xi, altogether, looking very chummy. Yep. Putin and Modi in the back of a limo, just kind of a noteworthy, visual choice. by them after Trump night. Yeah, after Trump invited Putin into his limo. Modi talking about how insightful Putin is. I mean, again, in a different world, we would be, this would be setting off really like

five alarm fires here in America, right? Like this axis forming over there, these other authoritarian's. And you'd think that Trump would be wanting to try to coalesce the freedom-loving countries throughout the world. That's what traditionally we'd been doing in the post-World War II era, not happening, actually. We're alienating our allies. And Trump's, I guess, threatening, Trump doesn't want to ever threaten Putin with any actual consequences. So the stick that the administration has used to go after Russia, kind of, since they haven't ended the war, as these tariffs on India as a punishment for buying Russian oil. So we're punishing India,

and not Russia, really. And India's response seems to be, you know, sidling up to Russia and China even more. So I don't know what you make of all that. Yeah. Well, I mean, here's the good news. It could have been worse. Trump could have also been there. Right.

Right. I mean, the good news is that the axis of authoritarian's so far does not seem, they seem to believe that they should be setting up an opportunity. opposition to America and not including America. So good for us. Yeah, that's a good one. I guess, right? I mean, this is, you could see a world in which, like, Trump is over there and they're all

taking sides against Canada. So when you said 90% worst case outcomes, you know, we haven't reached that side. We haven't gotten to that one yet. So it's really pretty interesting. And I think it's a sign. I wrote this after, you know, Mark Carney came out and said, Canada's got to look elsewhere because the relationship with America is no longer operable.

The rest of the world is moving on. And that's what I think America doesn't quite understand. Some of us do, but I think most Americans don't. The rest of the world is moving on because they realize this isn't just Trump. Trump happening once can be just bad luck. But twice means that like the character of the American people can no longer be relied upon. like this is a this is a verdict on all of America it's not about Trump and you can't make plans America is weak and China is just saying like look we are what we are but we're not crazy

and we don't go careening we don't do like you know 10% tariffs on day one and then 39% tariffs on day two and then 22% tariffs on day three like you can do business with us you can make plans around us. Yeah, we might steal some of your IP. Right, no. Like, we are what we are. You know, we're not going to, but that's it. It's also interesting that China is not trying to pretend that there's something different, right? They're just saying, like, we are, we are gangsters, but we are orderly gangsters. Yeah. And if you go under, under our umbrella, you'll be able to do what you want to do less or more. You'll have to pay the juice to us. But, you know, it's not like those crazy

guys over there where you can't, you know, that's like going to work for. I don't know. Elon. Elon or something, right. So you have them together. We're America's friends, right? Europe is preparing to go without us, right? They are in the process of making alternative security arrangements.

That will lead to alternative economic arrangements. The Sharia oligarchs in the Middle East to our friends now? Cutter, like kind of oil. I guess there's that. Yeah. The Sharia law oil. Cutter and the Saudis. That will be, those are.

will be our... El Salvador has a key ally of us now. Yeah, that's great. This stuff is all going to continue to happen and there's nothing. I mean, clearly there's nothing Trump can do. It is also funny to me that Trump wants in with them so bad, right? Because Trump really does see himself as a Putin or a G. And they're happy to like coddle him and play him when they're in front of him, but they know he's so stupid that they can also just keep doing whatever they want to do, right? And, you know, and so they're going and creating a post-American world order, which so are the Europeans.

And what are we doing? We're driving biomedical research and pharmaceutical research out of the country. We are blowing up our own GDP. I thought Jake Sullivan was so good on this on China, too. Like, in meanwhile, we're just getting played. And Trump's still, like, he cares most about. the deal like the ornament that he can have that like meanwhile we're like bringing in 600,000 Chinese students to go to kind of we're doubling the amount of you know because he wants

Xi to like him. He wants Putin to like him still. It's it would be like easier I guess to rail against if it was purely nefarious but like there's a nefariousness to it with Trump but also like this kind of weakness of admiration that he has for those people in that at that summit and kind of this disdain for most of the Democratic leaders, besides the ones that are good at golf, like the guy from Finland. It's why they keep him around. But so, you know, like that part, you can imagine kind of a right-wing nationalist leader of America that's malicious that still has the masked guys taking people off the streets,

but that also is really trying, like at least has a vision for what a strong America countering like China would look like. And, like, that's not what we're doing at all. Just take the India stuff, right? I mean, driving India into China's arms, I mean, this is, you know, they have a disputed border. And China is being, like, super magnanimous about it. They're like, hey, we're not going to let this one thing define our relationship. Because Trump doesn't want to go after Putin.

I mean, because that's what it is, right? He has decided he's going to blow up the American Indian relationship in order to make sure that he can not offend Vlad, his friend. That's literally what does that happen. And it's crazy because it's so stupid. And as you said, there's no sign to, you know what's going to happen on Wednesday,

Tim? What's that? Xi's having a big old military parade in Beijing. He's going to be jealous. His guest, a special guest, is going to be a little rocket man, Kim Jong-un. And I would bet you anything that

Trump is obsessed with what that parade looks like. I mean, I And that is because I think we're, I think we're going to have another military parade. Did you, did you, he wasn't happy with ours. The army did, the army let him down. It was a sad military parade. And so he's going to ask the, I think it's the Navy to do better. Hand to God.

I mean, we're, we are going to have an American president watching a Chikam military parade with envy because that's the world we live in now. Just want to throw one last thing on this. I don't know if you knew this. I shout out to our friends at Playbook because I didn't, I didn't have it marked on my calendar. today is Trump's latest deadline for Putin to make progress on peace in Ukraine. That was today. I remember the 90 and the 30 days. Didn't Macron say something about like, you know, Trump, Putin will have played him again if no ceasefire happens by Monday?

There we are. Here we are Monday. All right, final topic. I just, I couldn't let this go by. I need to talk to somebody about it. Did you see that Rudy Giuliani press release? over the weekend? Sure did. I have so many questions about it. For anybody who is enjoying their Labor Day and missed it, I don't know, might have been distracted by other things like

LSU's dominating victory over Clemson and Little Death Valley. Here is the statement that you might have missed. On the evening of August 30th, 2025 in New Hampshire, Mayor Giuliani was involved in a motor vehicle accident. Prior to the incident, he was flagged down by a woman who was the victim of a domestic violence incident. Mayor Julianie. Giuliani immediately rendered assistance and contacted 911. That's nice. Seems like a batman figure. He remained on the scene until responding officers arrived to ensure her safety.

Following this, while traveling on the highway, Mayor Giuliani's vehicle was struck from behind at high speed. He was transported to a nearby trauma center where he was diagnosed with a fractured thoracic vertebrae. His business partner and medical provider were promptly contacted and arrived at the hospital to oversee his care. At this time, no further updates are available. This is the only statement authorized by Mayor Giuliani, signed Michael Ragusa, head of Mayor Giuliani's security. I have so many questions, starting with, how does Mayor Giuliani still have security?

Who's paying for that? Why does he still have a business partner? What's his business? I thought that he had to pay the Georgia election workers. So I thought he had a lot of debts still. Hmm. Well, maybe the security is being provided pro bono, Tim. By who?

I don't know. This is the fisciest car accident story since the Tiger Woods Golf Club thing. Remember like, oh, Tiger Woods has been involved in a car. You know, he was in his driveway. It was the holiday. Who can say? We don't know what happened here. It's like, wait a minute.

Why was the intern in a car accident in his driveway? What is he doing in New Hampshire? Does he have business in New Hampshire? Is that a, like, is Giuliani doing a lot of business up in New Hampshire? I think he has a lover in New Hampshire. Maybe. allegedly, I've heard. I don't know for true. Does he just pull, whenever he sees a car pull over on the side with flashers, does Rudy just

hop off and is he a white knight of the roads? Is that what he's up to? And then he's like, oh, yeah, well, I'm any of the Rudy Giuliani that we have seen in public over the last eight years suggest that he has the wherewithal to operate a motor vehicle on his own. Was the security driver? Was he driving? Why was it, why was he at high speed? after this? How does it relate to the domestic violence incident? He's then waiting on the side for the police. He's the one who interfaces with the police. He is then being pursued at high speed. All of this is, I mean, maybe it's true. But I get the sense. And then following this, this is the only statement, please respect to privacy. Again, I have to feel that if it unfolded in the way that has been presented to us, that Rudy wouldn't shut up about it.

Yeah, you'd want to do many interviews. He'd be on The Today Show. He would be in every, you know, Rudy Giuliani rehabilitates himself. Rudy Julia, finally, the new America's mayor is back. I, uh, I, I hope we find out what this is all about someday because I bet it's great. Do you have theories? Do you have any guesses as to what this might be? I mean, I think the safest theory always is that Rudy was drinking because he drinks a lot,

which is fine. I mean, you know, as long as it's not causing other problems in your life. And I don't know if that caveat applies to Rudy. Clearly, Rudy's been fine. So, yeah. But again, it's 10 p.m. Saturday night on 93. I don't know. I don't really have a great theory. And I think that probably the best theory, who the hell knows? Who the hell knows? I'd like to know more. We'll keep an eye on this story. We'll be monitoring this story. But, you know, the reason I want to know more, Tim, is because I want to make sure that I can afford Rudy the plaudits that he deserves for saving a woman who is the victim of domestic abuse. And so that is the only reason I want to know more is because I feel like his reputation, which is taking a little bit of a hit over the last eight years or so we deserve to be able to see him for the real man of courage that he is. And I just want to know more so we can all celebrate that. And at the ballwork, we like to give credit where to do. You know, even if we have some disagreements, you know, it's important that we acknowledge the successes of our political foes. All right, JVL, thank you for subbing.

What a show. A little longer than I meant it to be. But hopefully everybody enjoyed the bonus minutes. And we'll be talking to you on Wednesday at the next level. If people aren't downloading the next level with you, me, and Sarah, on Wednesdays, what are they doing with their lives, honestly? I mean, clearly they're just Tim stands who don't like it when me and Sarah are there. I don't think that that can't.

I could not possibly be it. scatting over your genius. I mean, I don't think so. I appreciate that. All right. Thank you, JVL. And no more compliments, please. Everybody else, we'll see you tomorrow.

We've got an old friend coming on the show. It'll be a good one. Catch you then. Peace. Miriam, toxicity is glad. It's going to be free. I can't get my freak off. Hang on Giuliani.

He's sick as like he's on me. But you can't stop the new waves on me. So when we got hips shake them and anything got to forsake them. Juliana's got us to be, but we ain't going to lose. Let's break them. Yeah, yeah. So we've got hips and shake on and if they got a piece of all sick on, Giuliana's got us with what we're going to give a shit.

Let's break them. Let's break them. Let's break them down. And on the way, we'll make them say. Everybody cut, cut, everybody cut, Everybody cut, everybody cut loose Everybody cut, everybody cut, Everybody cut, everybody cut loose

Now, everybody cut And shake that butt And on the way We'll make them say, Make them say Do you know what I'm going to be able to do you, do-do-do-do-do-to-do-to-do-to-do-to-do-to-do-to-do-to-do-to-do-to-do-to-cun The Bullwark podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brough.