The Bulwark Podcast - Julia Curlee and Errin Haines: Cowards Are Running This Country

Episode Date: August 19, 2026

When Trump came back into power, his administration leaned heavily on former CIA analyst Julia Curlee to help safeguard our national security. The first CIA officer to transition openly, Curlee had worked at the highest levels in the White House for years. But once her gender identity became public through a witch hunt, she was hounded out. Curlee talks with Tim about the chaos of Trump’s slash-and-burn firings, the administration’s demonizing of trans people, and how Mike Pence treated her with dignity and respect when she was his personal briefer. Plus: The 19th’s Errin Haines joins to discuss the Florida primaries, the Dems’ prospects in the South, the real backlash against the Callais decision, and AOC’s Woke 1 comments. And Tim asks The Bulwark community for a favor.show notes: Katie Britt’s office: 202-224-5744 Britt’s chief of staff: [e-mail] and her subcommittee clerk: [e-mail] Britt’s Twitter: @SenKatieBritt Where Tim shared the letter and drawing that were sent to Britt Curlee's Atlantic piece, "The Wrong Kind of American" Mona's podcast, where Curlee will also be a guest later this week Errin's newsletter, "The Amendment" Tim's 'Take' on the detained Venezuelan family Bulwark LIVE: GOOD FIGHT TOUR with Tim, Sarah, Sam and JVL is coming to the Southeast in October. Tickets go on sale August 21. Bulwark+ members get early access via our presale NOW. Head to TheBulwark.com/Events for details and to get your tickets.

Hey, everybody, we have a monster doubleheader pod today. And there are two great conversations, but in particular, I'm going to ask you to stick around for the second conversation. It's so moving and raging, inspiring. But before we get to this, I've got a favor to ask. I don't ask favors very often. JBL asked for favors in his newsletter, and people always reply. So I'm taking after his model.

I'm asking for a favor right now. On the Bullwark, Takes Feed, I know some of you guys are just pot only. But over on the Take Feet, I told the story of the family of Fredis and Edgar There are two asylees that came from Venezuela a few years ago with their daughter. Their daughter is currently seven. Evgariani is now pregnant with another child. They did everything right when they came to the country. They came through the legal assailee process.

They checked in with their ICE appointments. They have legal work, learning English. Given the policies of this administration, it was obvious that they were not going to get permanent asylum. So when Evgariani got pregnant, they decided to do exactly. what the Trump administration asked, which was go to their CBP1 app and sign up for self-deportation. And they can get on one of the self-deportation flights home. There have been many to Venezuela. They signed up for it when they went to check in at the ICE office. They were detained, shackled, and sent to the Dilley internment camp. They've been there seven weeks now.

Agriani has not had access to medical care. Their daughter is not eating, has been saying horrifying things about how she wants to die and how she just wants to get out of there. All they want to do is go back to Venezuela. all they want to do is exactly what the Trump administration has asked for them. And yet they're still being kidnapped and held in this internment camp. And so they've written two letters to Katie Britt, the parents explaining their situation. And then the daughter drew her a picture in the hopes, because she is chair of the subcommittee of appropriations on Homeland Security. And she had said that she cared about the boy in the blue bunny hat in Minnesota.

and so they're just basically writing these letters begging her, like call someone, help us go home. Like help us do what you guys have asked. They're working with the Texas Immigration Law Council. I spoke to a representative from there last night and said that since they sent the letters, they've not heard from Senator Britt. And so I'm asking you, the favor, long line up there.

The favor is if you're driving, do this later. But if you're just sitting at your computer, pause the podcast right now, contact center, Brits office. I'll put the stuff in the show notes. The phone number is 202, 224, 5744. There's an email form on her website, or I'm putting the email address of her chief of staff and the head of the subcommittee that oversees the relevant subject matter, or just tweet at her, or Twitter is at send Katie Britt, S-E-N, Katie Britt. I put the letter and the drawing on my social media. I'll link to that in the show notes, so you can just send that to her if that's easier.

I guess I ask you to be nice. The point of this process is to help these people get out, not to vent your spleen and feel good about calling Katie Britt names as much as I wouldn't feel good about that as well. So the request is simply, you ask these people self-deport, let them self-deport them. Stop interning them. Okay. Stop torturing them. Let this pregnant woman get access to medical care. Get the seven-year-olds out of the fucking prison camp. Don't cuss. Sorry. See, it's going to be hard. So if you can't control yourself like me, maybe don't call, maybe draft the email and make it nice. I just think it's really important that they are dealt used with this.

And Senator Katie Britt decides that she doesn't care about this after doing a big New York Times profile about how much she cared about the children and how they're being treated, then maybe we can try a different approach next week. That's where we're at. I appreciate everybody. It's a personal favor that you take the time to do this today. As far as today's show, as mentioned, segment to this conversation with Julia Curley. She wrote about her story in the Atlantic this week. She was a top intelligence official, top, top, intelligence official who worked in Trump 1.0, who briefed Vice President Pence daily.

She was the person in charge with briefing him. And then when Trump came back in a second time, she stayed to help with the transition, to help keep the country safe. She was the top intelligence official briefing the incoming Trump national security staff. She knew the administration's views about trans people. but she stayed anyway because she cared about the country. And I got a chance to speak to her. And we focused on her story entirely.

And it's unbelievably moving. And I think if you're anything like me at the end of that, you'll just want to hear from more from Julia. And I've got good news. She's also going to go on the Mona Charit show this week, where she'll talk about her area of expertise because we didn't really get into that, like the intelligence failures of this White House,

what it means for Iran, and a bunch of other stuff. So I hope you enjoy our conversation and make a note to check out her conversation with Mona Sharon as well when that's up later this week. So that's what we got for you. First up, it's one of my old buddies from the circus to talk about some Democratic politics in the South. The results from Florida last night. Stick around. It's Aaron Haynes.

Appreciate you all. Hello and welcome to The Bullwark Daily. I'm your host Tim Miller. Delighted to welcome back to the show. It's been a minute. She's the editor at large and co-founder of the 19th, an independent nonprofit newsroom. She's also the president of the National Association of Black Journalists and co-host of a new podcast, long play that our friends at Crooked Media are putting out.

It's about how the Democrats can win in the South. It's Aaron Haynes. What's up, girl? Good to see you. Tim, it's been too long, my friend, but I'm glad that we are back in action together. Me too. We're both alive. about focusing on the South right now.

We're bulwark. We're doing a tour. We're coming your neck of the woods. We're doing Charlotte, Columbia, Atlanta. That all makes sense. Is this where our RSVP? I mean, what am I doing? Yeah, exactly.

We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll figure out where to kind of get you out on the road with us. But you've been traveling around on that show, long place. I want to talk about that. But really quick, we have some politics news last night. I just want to get to. There's the Florida primary in this never-ending DSA versus moderates

versus Establishment War, a bit of a mixed bag. Last night, Jared Moskowitz, and Debbie Oserman Schultz, both kind of establishment beat DSA challengers in their house races. And then in the Senate race, something interesting happened.

Florida state rep Angie Nixon, who's a member of the DSA, black woman. She was a big advocate against Israel's actions in Gaza and it has been an activist, state rep. She, a surprise victory

over Alex Vindman, the Resistance One Hero. I love Alex, a friend of the show. But, you know, in a primary, I think it looked like we've seen this other places where Democratic voters are kind of interested in what DSA candidates are offering from a policy standpoint. Also, from a fight standpoint, and she was, another thing about Angie is that she was a big point person in fighting Ron DeSantis locally. And Alex had kind of moved to Florida, so I think that played a role as well.

But anyway, wondering your thoughts when we saw us in Florida and kind of this bigger picture of what we're seeing in these Democratic primaries. Yeah, I mean, look, Tim, that's pretty much my takeaway, too, is that you're seeing these DSA candidates that are kind of bringing in folks who have felt disaffective for whatever reason who are wanting somebody that they see as a fighter, particularly on the issues that they care about and are not wanting necessarily established candidates that they don't feel have been speaking for them. you know, what does it mean to have now, I mean, several of these kinds of candidates on the ballot headed into the general election, some number of them are going to get through. What does that mean for the future of the Democratic Party? I mean, I think that, you know, both parties are really in the midst of their own respective reckonings about what the direction of the party is going to be, or at least how this faction of the party, right, is going to factor into how the party politics

are shaped going forward. And so them being in these races means that the issue, that they care about are going to be in the conversation, right, headed into November and probably beyond that, right? Like, there are lessons for what we are seeing in the successes and the failures of these candidacies across the country in these primaries. I think that there are lessons for not just these midterm elections, but what is that going to mean for what the agenda is headed into 28, obviously. I've got a hot take. Are you ready for it? Always. I mean, hello, I'm here. Again, love Alex, nothing but respect for his service. But in the governor's race there, you have another never-trumper,

another former Republican, David Jolly as the nominee. He's got Gwen Graham, kind of moderate Democrat, as his lieutenant-governor candidate. They're going against Byron Donald's. And I think it's probably good for Jolly's chances that Angie Nixon won last night. I think that having kind of two never-Trumper-ish people on the ticket, to my guys. It's like a little bit of a tough self to some parts of the Democratic base. And I think that in some ways, this could be a lifting both votes situation where Nixon does

help turn out younger voters, you know, voters of color, that maybe might not have been as excited about a jolly and vinman on the top of the ticket. And, you know, they go out there, they turn out, they vote for the Democrat in the governor's race. Jolly, I think will probably do better, you know, in some of these more traditional. traditional kind of suburban districts where you have our people, the people that were Romney voters that have now been Democratic voters for a while. I don't know. I think the David Jolly race is kind of sneaky. I think it's going to be tough for Nixon, but we'll see. But I think that that governor is kind of sneaky and it might help him a little bit. What other thing, just as you mentioned,

the reckoning's happening on both sides last night. On the good news standpoint, Corey Mills is this awful Republican got beat in a primary. So Republican Voters Act responsibly for once. How about that? And then less encouraging, there was like multiple, like, literal Groyper anti-Semite white nationalist candidates on the ballot last night. And they got between like 10 and 20 percent in the Republican primary. So they didn't win, but they won the college campuses. Yeah. College Republicans are not all right.

Right. I mean, I think, too, this primary season has been very illuminating in terms of us. I mean, we're learning, obviously, a lot about voters, too, in this moment and kind of where they are, what their issues, what their priorities are. And so, yeah, I mean, even in, you know, races where we are seeing candidates lose, what those races can tell us about who the voters in that race is. I mean, 10%, 20% of voters that are- Leaning FSU campus?

Right. Full of alarming. What does that tell us about the electorate that's out there? Yeah. It tells us some bad things about where the Republican Party's going, but that's for another day. I want to talk about your, well, I guess it's kind of related to this. I mean, you know, certainly Republican Party, racism is intertwined with this question of Democrats winning the South and in some ways

cuts both ways. It hurts Democrats various ways. In other ways, you know, the Calais decision, other things are motivating Democrats in the South. At the biggest picture, you know, with this project you guys are working on with Long Play, I'm wondering on kind of what you're learning, what you're thinking about the Democratic prospects across the South. Well, I mean, look, you know, Tim, you and I are both living in my favorite part of the the part of the country that shaped us. And frankly, the part of the country that has always shaped American politics for better or for worse, right? I mean, as goes the South, so goes the nation. That's what W.B. Du Bois said, you know, over a century ago. So, like, what does it mean for us?

Well, except for at Appomattox, but anyway, but most of the time. Listen, including affamatics. That also shaped where we got to go as a country going forward, right? So like, what does it mean for us to look at the South, to learn from the South, to listen to people in the South about what the issues that they care about, to be seeing up close the unfinished business of our democracy. I'm talking about race and how that's playing out across our politics to think about the South as a place where we are seeing whether or not, like 250 years into this American Democratic experience? Like, what does it mean when we are seeing people who are literal? contesting their ability to participate in this democracy freely and fairly and equally on the other side of that Calais decision. So, I mean, obviously couldn't have predicted that coming down at a better time for our show and for us to be in places like Georgia, in Texas, in North and South Carolina,

in Mississippi, in Tennessee, like seeing, you know, the choices that lawmakers are making in this part of the country and how that's playing out and particularly animating people to participate and how the South is changing. So many people are moving to our part of the country from other places, and they're bringing with that new ideas and new energy and saying, you know, look, places like North Carolina where you have like almost 40% of people saying that they are unaffiliated, by the way, that means independent.

I learned that. I'm like, I've never heard this term anywhere else in the country, but like 38% of people that are unaffiliated, that means they don't have a team. That means that they're open. That means, you know, that they're one. wanting change so much of, I think, what is motivating these midterms. But I think the climate that is in our country right now is, again, it's feeling like a change election, at least, you know,

on some of these down ballot races. People are wanting something, someone different, someone who also is going to address their problems. It's not about, you know, these candidates. The people that we're hearing from are saying, what are these people going to do to help me? Because I'm literally thinking about growing food because I can't, you know, afford groceries. I don't know what the stock price was out here, but I could tell you how much I paid for gas yesterday. Like, these are the things that people, we're hearing directly from people. And I love that, like, that's the thing that I love the most about this show. That's the thing I love most about my job and being a journalist is getting out and being able to hear directly from people about what their issues are. Not, I mean,

look, love politics, love, you know, seeing candidates out there in action. But like, I don't want to hear them saying, you know, articulating what they think the issues are to these voters. Like what do the voters tell us about where they are and how that's influence and how they head to the polls or not? I wonder what you're hearing in particular on Calais. I mean, in particular from black voters, but also, you know, from white voters, other people who are just who feel outraged by, you know, the kind of overturn of these sort of seminal protections that we've had for decades now in the South. And I was talking to a prominent, like, potential leader for the Democratic Party. So it was off the record. I'm trying to think I'm going to say that.

I don't usually do that on the podcast. I don't usually do the anonymous on the podcast. But I've got to – I like to keep it real on the podcast, but I also have to be respectful. And this was their question, right? Like, also, like, to me, living here, right? And I'm curious to you, you know, out there doing this reporting, like, is the blacklash real? Like, is it just on social media among activists that were already, you know, activated? Like, what's your sense for kind of the reaction to collect?

No, it's absolutely real. Look, when we were on the ground in states across the South, unprompted people are bringing up the gutting of the voting rights act and what they felt like that was going to mean for them personally and also for the future of our politics. Look, I mean, I think for black folks, we're seeing over and over again in these primary elections, but also just the mood this summer.

Like, this is animating black people. Like when you try to take away black people's voting rights, the rights that so many people fought and bled and died for in this country, you know, that means something. That is something that is only going to motivate them to show up more, to fight harder, and to push back and say, you know, no, like, this is not something that's going to happen. We are not going backwards. We're certainly not giving up our rights, even as, you know, there are folks that would seek to take them away. And so, like, you saw, you know, these southern states moving so quickly in the wake of the Calais decision to redraw maps.

people coming out to state capitals to make their voices heard. And by the way, that was an intergenerational multiracial coalition in a lot of cases at these capitals. And so I think that what that signals to me is that there are also certainly some number of white people in the South who were saying, this is not the South that represents me. This is not who I want to be. This is not what I want this region of the country. This is not the message that we want to be sending. And so they're standing up and they're speaking out. But I think, look, we've got to be real. You're talking about speaking the truth. Like there are also clearly some number of white people who are in the South who are trying to use the racial and other culture war, you know, playbook to continue to

maintain power and to animate a certain number of folks in a way that has been effective in traditionally speaking in our politics. And so, you know, for those who would suggest that there is no racial motivation behind gerrymandering when we are seeing the impact of Maps being drawn, the ones that we're able to be successfully drawn, I think it is telling that this is the way that folks think that they can maintain power because they understand that black voters and what they have been able to do on the other side of the 1965 Voting Rights Act has been powerful. And it is that power that is being contested in our part of the country. And that is really the lesson that we are watching unfold right now for the rest of us, for all of the rest of us.

What if there are any places or races that are saying that to you? I mean, like, it's interesting. you think about just reacting to what you're saying, like on the positive side and on the negative. North Carolina, for example, as you mentioned, I think that there's a lot of potential democratic gains there. Like Jamie Agar, for example, is a guy running in Western North Carolina. They had all those issues with the floods. And I think I'm not happy with Democratic leadership, Roy Cooper's running well. On maybe the negative side, well, this is, I guess, cuts both ways. Like Justin Pearson, for example, in Memphis running this great race, very passionate guy.

his data center messaging is really resonating. But like the degree of the gerrymandering in Tennessee was so much more extensive than it wasn't some of these other places. And it was so racially biased. And they literally cut the Memphis black community in thirds and Pete set it out to the rest of the state. It's going to be a really big challenge for him. So I don't know.

Those are just a couple of ones that have cut my eyes. What about you? Yeah, I mean, look, to your point on both of those race, so the Jamie Agar, that contest, Absolutely, the floods are still looming so large over that part of the state. And again, this is where it comes up. I mean, voters are like, you know, we need help. We are still trying to recover.

Who is going to be the person that is going to help us do that? Jamie Agar is somebody, I mean, he literally calls himself a Mountain Democrat. He's a farmer. He's somebody that these people know and feel like they can relate to. You know, I think that that is a really interesting race where this is in play Roy Cooper. I mean, God, somebody who was a lifelong North Carolina politician and is now saying, I feel strongly enough that it's time for me to think about going to Washington and has a really, really good shot.

You know, North Carolina hasn't sent a Democrat to the U.S. Senate in a generation, but yet, you know, now that's something that seems pretty likely, you know, by all accounts looking down there. But he's somebody that North Carolanians know. He's somebody that they trust, and he's somebody who, you know, has delivered for them in a way that makes them, a lot of folks that I heard from feel like, you know, he can get things done for us. Kay Hagan, maybe the last Democratic Senator from the most of him.

Democratic Senate from North Carolina, and we know how long ago that was, right? I mean, John Ossoff, obviously down in Georgia, that race is getting a lot of attention. The way that he, you know, is taking on this administration is something that's resonating, not just with Democrats, but with Republicans who may be weary, frankly, of a MAGA agenda and are thinking they may be open to an Osloff candidacy, because if he is somebody that they feel like speaks for them right now, like that may be something that they're open to. So, I mean, his chances are looking really good for him to maintain his Senate seat in Georgia as well. Hey, Americans are carrying over a trillion dollars in credit card debt at rates north of 23%.

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is on Fox, of all people, and Eric Erickson, who is a right-wing radio host and blogger for people who don't know him. Both have credited Asoff with, like, doing the work of actually communicating to Republican business owners

and community leaders and being responsive to them and listening to their concerns, even if they're not going to vote for him. And they both said they've heard that anecdotally and that that's made a big difference. Those are some interesting people to kind of vouch for him, I thought. Yeah, but I think it is a testament to the coalition

that he's trying to build in the state, the coalition that he knows he's going to need to win. I mean, look, you look at the last time he was elected, that race went to a runoff. Don't forget, 2020, we were in the midst of a pandemic. They had to go to a runoff election, right? Yeah, but he had fewer votes in the first round, right? Like if it had it not go to the runoff, if it had it not been a runoff system, he would have lost.

Right. Exactly. So like the idea that this is not going to be a close race again, of course it's going to be a close race. Or at least that's what I feel like is going to happen because there is so much energy in the state. And, you know, knowing that Georgia went blue the last time, people are thinking, is Georgia purple? Are we, you know, is Georgia going to be, you know, flipping and moving in a different direction? Like people in the state know that the country is watching to see what happens. And so, so they're pretty animated.

to really show up, I think, in November on both sides. So he knows that he knows he's got to build a coalition. I do think that he's also, though, leaning into, I mean, this is somebody who was mentored by John Lewis, right, who grew up in that district. And so for him to be thinking about the implications of the Voting Rights Act for black voters across the state in Georgia, who he knows are pretty angry, frankly, about that decision and also ready to make their voices heard. He knows that that's going to be a galvanizing thing that could potentially propel him to victory here once again.

I mean, that's the coalition. The most interesting about Aosov, and, I mean, obviously his talent, has drawn a lot of attention and interest about 2028. But I think another big part of it is just running in Georgia in this project you're working on. Like, you know, nothing against the DSA, at its running in New York, or even Denver, like in the city, it's like, at this point, that's still kind of a small part of the coalition. Like, to win elected in these swing states,

the coalition is black voters and kind of these suburban, you know, college-educated voters. Like, that's not the entire coalition, but like that is the, those are the biggest chunks. And, like, they're in Georgia. And, like, Georgia has a lot in both demographics. And he's demonstrating how to win them. Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, you know, what, lessons does that hold, you know, in other places, places like a North Carolina, for example. You know, South Carolina certainly, you know, was very interesting to kind of see on the ground because, you know, with the unfortunate, untimely passing of Lindsey Graham, that Senate race is wide open now, you know, in a way that it did not feel like when you had, you know,

Senator Graham and just how large he loomed over the state as well. But I mean, South Carolina is really having a moment, right? First in the nation, Democratic presidential primary now, like the idea that we're going to have to focus on South Carolina for a year headed into the election as opposed to a place like Des Moines, you know, or even New Hampshire, like that feels seismic in terms of how we think about who is an American voter and what does it mean to think about issues like affordability and health care and education through the eyes of black voters, rural voters, you know what I mean? Like, it really feels game-changing, not just for the Democratic Party, but like what it means for the political imagination of this country. We're at the point and laugh at Republicans part of the podcast right now.

And I had one more, you were taking me to South Carolina, which is good transition work. But I had one more awesome thing I had to talk about first. I don't know if you saw, I don't know how much CNN prime time you're watching these days. But Scott Jennings was crying on CNN last night. And I would usually play the audio bit. I'm not going to play it because the second-hand embarrassment is too great, and the blood pressure rise that everybody would take of him just pretending to be offended about Assoff's line about Natalie Harp.

And he's like, oh, what if I started naming John Ossoff's women staffers and accusing them of affairs? It's just like, bro, what are you talking? Like, Donald Trump has bragged about sexual assault. Okay, like, we bombed a girls' school in Iran and a bunch of girls' dogs. Scott Jennings didn't get his dander up over that. All of the instances, when I talked about at the beginning of this pod,

where we have people, pregnant women and children in internment camps for no reason. Scott Jennings doesn't care about that. He cares that, like, John Ossoff might have teased Natalie Harp and Donald Trump in one speech. And the whole thing is so pathetic. Yeah. Isn't it?

Yeah. It shows like Osov really can get under these guys' kids. That's the thing, right? Like what he's saying is landing, why is it resonating with you the way that it is? Has he struck a nerve? This is somebody who has been able, yeah, to land punches with them in a way that they don't always know how to respond to. And I think that that's something that is really, you know, Democrats are seeing that and they're saying, oh, this guy's a fighter.

Well, I like what I'm hearing from this guy. I like that he's willing to take them on and that they really don't seem to have an answer for him. You can say three words about the human printer and get Scott Jennings to cry and have a temper. tantrum on TV. I'm not saying that's like the top quality for a future president, but people like it. It's nice. It's nice. It's a nice cherry on top. As we all went through the America 250 anniversary celebrations. One question that we're talking about on this podcast that people are thinking about was who actually is getting to tell the story of America now? Because that story isn't just what Donald Trump wants you to think it is. It isn't just fireworks and flags. It's about whether we tell

the truth about what this country is built to be. Lately, a lot of people are working very hard to rewrite that story. A recent federal religious liberty report called for building more bridges between church and state, but here in the reality-based community, we should be clear, America rejected kings, it rejected divine rule, and it created a constitution with no religious tests for public office. That was an anti-religion. It was pro-freedom. And that freedom includes free thinkers, atheists, agnostics, and the millions of Americans

who don't want government taking sides on religion. The Freedom from Religion Foundation works to keep state and church separate because freedom of conscience means a right to believe or not believe. Don't let anyone turn America's story into a theocracy. If that matters to you, go to ffrf.org. Or text religion to 511-511 to join or learn more. Go to ffrf.org slash religion or text religion to 511-511 now. On South Carolina, they did debate last night. Yeah.

Darlene Graham. It's on stage Ralph Norman. They're in a runoff. Yes. And she was asked, actually, let's just listen. It's too good. Senator, are Taiwan and the South China Sea national security issues for the United States? If so, why?

I'm sorry. Could you repeat the question? Are Taiwan and the South China Sea national security issues for the United States? And if so, why or how? I'm just going to be honest here. I'm not on national security. I'm not that informed on national security. So, but I do support the military.

I mean, that's like, and maybe South Carolina is right supposed to run. It's kind of like Miss South Carolina. You remember her famous viral moment. I don't know. You were down there. Like, are they really going to put this woman in the Senate? I mean, look, what I felt in the room was certainly a lot of empathy and sympathy for

darling Graham, right? she's still mourning the loss of her brother. But, you know, we were at actually a Charleston Republican Party rally where we heard from most of the Republicans who were vying for that seat, right? They were 10 people that were on the ballot for that primary that's now gone into this runoff. She was not one of the people who was there, right? And so they didn't really even get a chance. Those voters didn't get a chance to meet her, to get to know her, to get to hear from her on some of the positions, right, that we're now, you know, seeing her on this debate stage where she, you know, had that answer on questions of national security, right? I mean, first of all, they're very concerned about whether they're going to be able to hold this Republican seat, right? Like whether Lindsey Graham's, you know, exit from the stage from the scene, literally, is going to mean that, you know, Democrats are going to get, take this seat over or whether they can keep a Republican.

So they're really wanting to get the right person in that seat. They're going to want, they're wanting somebody who is ready for prime time, right? And so, like, you know, moments like that don't, don't serve her well. if she's, you know, seeking to convince people that she is ready. I mean, obviously, Lindsay Graham's shoes would be big to feel by anybody that stepping into that seat. But certainly moments like that don't go very far to build confidence among the people who she's going to need to get over the hump here in a couple of weeks in this primary. Runoff. Yeah.

End up with another insurrection. I mean, Ralph Norman's the other one in the race is another pro-insurrection guy. Republicans have a lot of those in their statewide races. Oh, in South Carolina, I did also want to shout out Nancy LeCore who's running in that first district. I don't know if you got down there, but she's a military veteran. That's maybe a winnable race. I think the Senate is going to be tough. But that House race, that's another place, maybe a surprising place where Democrats could pick it up.

Absolutely agree. Look, Nancy LeCore, you know, somebody who was, you know, three decades in the Navy, right? This woman could not have been more talented, accomplished. And Pete Hedgeseth and that Defense Department of War, you know, shows her the door, right? I mean, that was devastating for her. And yet now she has taken that and she is channeling that into this House race. And look, she's the first statement. We talked to her on this episode of Longplay that is out of South Carolina.

And she's clear, look, I am somebody who voted Republican for a long time because of, you know, my military career. But now, you know, I am thinking about and seeing things that are happening that I don't agree with. And so now, you know, I'm putting myself forward in this way. I do think, you know, because South Carolina has such a huge military presence, you know, whether it's folks that are currently serving or, you know, so many veterans who have retired in the state, like she is somebody that I think can put together a kind of coalition just based on her lived experience that is going to resonate with a lot of different kinds of people. That could be certainly a race that looked, you know, to me.

That's another way it's kind of like the Florida thing. It's like if the Republican Senate candidate is terrible and there's not a lot of motivation, that kind of helps down ballot. You know, maybe some of the Republicans don't turn out as much dissatisfaction over the treatment of veterans what's happening in the U.S. A barham Lincoln. Anyway, that's, if you're in that state and you're looking for a race to help, I think that Nancy LeCourt race is one to really focus on. All right.

Last topic, we have to do this. I got some negative feedback from the listeners, Aaron. And this is, I like feedback. It's fine. because when AOC went on Meet the Press and did the woke one was crazy comment to kind of alibi some of the things that Francesca Hong had said, we on the next level podcast were kind of bouncing that around. And, you know, I kind of fall down.

I'm a moderate. This is classic me always. I kind of fell down in the middle. I was like, there's some really good, woke one stuff. And there was some bad woke one stuff. And we sort of hash that out. And we had some of the list. that were like, three white folks complaining about woke one.

So anyway, you're on the National Association of Black Journalists. I have you here. I had to at least get your take on the woke one as crazy discourse. Where are you on how IOC was framing that? I mean, look, representation matters. Representation matters in journalism in media. So, yeah, what does it mean? You know, valid points may have been made by any one of the white people who were

weighing in on this conversation. But I do think that it matters, you know, when we're thinking about who, who is speaking to these issues and kind of providing context and unpacking some of these things, what does it mean for us to have a range of voices at the table? And maybe folks who were even hearing from people around the Woke 1 issue in a way that they're able to inform the conversation maybe in a different way. And what was your reaction when you heard AOC say that? Because again, that could be one of the things where it's like, man, is that undermining some of the things that happened? or is that smart politics?

I don't know. There's a lot of ways to look at it. You know, because we are in this moment where we're in this kind of anti-Dei climate where you're seeing people distancing themselves from race. When again, you know, to my mind, race is the unfinished business of this democracy.

And so, you know, we're talking, why is she doing this? Like, what does that say about what she thinks she needs to do, right? As she's thinking about her own political prospects and future, like that is the thing that is actually more interesting to me. I think the answer is that, is that she wants to try to shed the baggage without, you know, kind of giving up the mission, right?

Basically, it's just like, it's like, if I can use this, if I can say, hey, what going on is crazy? Then it's like, well, anytime you say, well, what about this one thing, you can be like, well, that was what I was talking about when I said that was crazy. Like, I liked this other thing, right? And so it's a little bit of that. That's the strategic move. I think it's probably a smart strategic move that she's making, but I don't know,

you know, I think there are layers to that for sure. I can understand why there might be backlash to it. But like, why is it baggage? And to your point, the follow-up is, what parts of it do you think are crazy? Right? Like, unpacking that is what makes it more interesting to me. Yeah, right. And I think that's maybe the risk, right?

Which is like, because you saw some of that after she said it. People are like, okay, what are specifically? You know what I mean? Like, it's a talking point that you think kind of shields you from like anything that offended people. And it probably works, by the way, if you're running for Senate, New York, Blue State, fine. If she's running for president, a lot of people.

follow-up questions on that. So we'll see. We'll try to talk about it. Anything else I missed? Anything else you want to plug? Yeah. I mean, listen, obviously, thanks so much for shouting out Longplay. Folks can watch it on YouTube.

If you go to Longplay series, you can subscribe. I hope you'll check it out. We've just wrapped our final episode, which is Mississippi. That'll be out next week. But, I mean, yeah, we actually know, Mississippi might already be out. God, what is time? I've been on the road. whole summer. But I mean, yes, six states. I would love to hear what folks think about it and more to

come on that. And then also, obviously, you know, in my other date job at the 19th, I do write a newsletter. It's called the amendment and folks can subscribe to that for free. Very, very focused on the midterms and what lessons we can learn from the next three months that are going to inform clearly the next four years and beyond. So, yeah. Mississippi's not out yet. I'm looking forward to it. Scott Collum, it's an interesting one. Mississippi and Kansas are two that I'm monitoring in the Senate races as maybe outside chances, but interesting candidates and not completely off the map. So we'll look at that. And we mentioned as to Corey mentioned how she has pushed out at the military. I've got up next. I really want people to stick around for a really amazing conversation

with Julia Curley. It was the trans CIA official that got fired from the White House and sent to CIA. and it's in a witch hunt against her horrifying. And it's a really moving conversation. So I hope you'll stick around for that. And Aaron, thanks so much for your time. We'll do it again soon. Let's definitely do it again soon. See you in the South.

See you on the road, my friend. We'll see you on the road. Bye-bye. Everybody stick around for Julia. All right, and we're back. She's a former analyst at the CIA. She was Vice President Pence's briefer during Trump's first term. She also served as NSC director in the Biden White House

and the second Trump White House. She was pushed out of the... the second Trump administration and had to resign the CIA after a witch hunt targeted her for being transgender. She wrote about her story for The Atlantic this week in an article titled The Wrong Kind of American. It's Julia Curley. Hey, Julia, thanks so much for coming on to the Bullwark Daily. Tim, thank you so much. Pleasure to be here. It is something. It is quite a story. We've a lot to talk about. You could have been a writer, though. I hope you're working on a book. It's really, it was very moving.

And obviously the story's moving, but it was well written. The opening line was so striking that the CIA, they started an office pool on when I'd be fired. It's true. And I kept saying I should have gotten in on it, but I didn't. Yeah. So what's funny, so if I recall around that time, I remember watching an episode of the bulwark,

and one Tim Miller was told in a moment that there was a transgender officer removed at the behest of Laura Lumer. And I detected some disbelief that there could be one at that point. That there could be a transgender officer? Yeah, one Tim Miller seemed to be surprised. I'd have to go back and look at my archives. I am disbelieving. I remain disbelieving.

I also a disbelief mixed with rage. I'm a little disbelief that CIA officers have time to listen to the Bullock Daily podcast. too, but rage over this. Bill Crystal and I have talked about this a lot. You know, wherever people are on the variety of different cultural war issues that the right is starting over transgenderism. It's particularly outrageous and galling the way that this administration is treating people that just wanted to serve their country, that are grownups making choices for themselves in a free country, and we're trying to serve America doing so honorably. and to just be thrown out like the trash, it's really sickening.

And I don't know. I mean, I guess I just wonder, as you said, if we're sitting there, the second term was starting, you write about this, he is going after transgender people on his inauguration day. How did you process that, like wanting to serve the country and knowing that this was possible? Many people have asked me that question. And, you know, what's important? for me is that it was always drilled into us as a baby analyst, young briefers, officers at the CIA, that we served regardless of party. We were nonpartisan civil servants. Our names are not on the product,

the coast of the president. We serve regardless of politics, and I firmly believed in that. I had served in the Iraq War, which I disapproved of. I briefed George W. Bush. I worked for Donald Trump in the first term, and I volunteered to stay for the second term. And if you had asked other people in my world, they would all tell you that that's just how it is. That's just what we do. And so many people warned us in the NSC and me in particular for obvious reasons that there would be a target painted on our back, but I was adamant that we serve regardless of party. And I'd always thought it a privilege to be a part of the peaceful transfer of power. And so I was determined to stay and the rest is history that I wrote about in the piece.

Yeah. I want to talk about your job, but since we kind of have ended up here because of my disbelief that you were there in the first place, you read about this. It's anonymized, but it seems like it's Burns and others telling you to leave. And Biden, you write, is the one person that kind of asked people to stay in your role, a national security role. I always fell down on the side of people should leave. People should get to see what they voted for. But I've had good faith arguments about that

with lots of people who decided to stay. And I just kind of wonder now, like, given everything that's happened, like how you kind of feel about that question, about what good public servants should do in the face of this? You know, it's really hard. I feel like on principle, and in my case in particular, I don't regret staying. I regret what happened.

For sure, I would much rather still be in the intelligence community doing the work rather than doing podcasts and writing for a living. No offense. Podcasting is an honorable profession, but, you know, maybe not. most valuable on the list of things in the world. So I do think that it's more important that we have people, you know, keeping us safe and doing intelligence. Yeah, you know, it just, it depends on the circumstances and the person. And there are officers right now serving at CIA that I've advised,

you've got to stay. You've got to be there to hold the line to make sure that the policymakers, even if they don't want to hear it, they're still being given the best information and analysis as possible so that maybe they might make better decisions, we'll see, and that hopefully you'll be here to rebuild when all of this is over. And so it was really important to me to stay and to model that for my team. I had been put in the leadership position of being the acting senior director for intelligence programs once the politicals from the Biden administration left. And they all volunteer to stay.

And of the entire Biden NSC, I believe, over 160 officers believed it was their duty to stay on, and many of them have suffered severe career setbacks, or in my case, I had to end up leaving the agency. And so it's very hard. You know, the leadership really did try to look out for us. They knew what was coming. But at the end of the day, this is what we do.

Let's talk about the job that you did so people can get a perspective on it. Because on the one hand, the way they were treated, being fired for your gender identity would have been totally inappropriate and insane if you were anything, the intern or the jan or whatever. But like, there's something, I think, especially galling about doing it, given the importance of the job to the safety of all the Americans that he's going to serve. And, you know, you write that in your job, basically after Biden's political appointees left, you were the senior intelligence official in the White House for the incoming Trump administration.

Like, they rely on you. after they fired you, or not fired you, after they redispatched you out of the White House, but they still made you work for a couple days because they needed your expertise. So, like, explain to us, those of us who don't, like, have a background in this, intelligence work, like, what is that job?

Like, what was that job that you were doing? Right. So the director for intelligence programs, the senior director, is overseeing the White House's access to intelligence for everyone in the executive office of the president. So that goes everything from maintaining the records of who has what compartment,

and who's going to receive the PDB arranging and serving as the interface with the 15 intelligence agencies who are designed to support the White House and being the White House's office looking out for the president's interests with the rest of the interagency, and also helping to manage highly sensitive intelligence programs that reflect the president's policies. Covert action, for example, is the president's policies in the government's policies in the government's in which the hand of the United States would be hidden. And so the director for intelligence in my old office would be intimately involved in making sure

that policies were being implemented on behalf of the president, which will be an important point if we talk about the coming purge of the NSC, where the White House had a very misguided idea that the NSC and the broader intelligence community was the enemy within, when in fact these are the arms and eyes and ears of the president to make sure there will be done

and that the interagency can implement their directions. And a lot of the catastrophes that we've blundered into in the last few months have been partly as a result of a completely destroyed National Security Council. So there's no one coordinating one of the most complicated organizations on the planet, the U.S. government. Yeah, Marco, who's in that job now, like said recently, he's not even focused that much on Iran.

He's, he's, you know, focused on the Cuba mission, which is not really, you know, the person is supposed to be coordinating all that, I assume should be sort of read in on everything. And you're in that job when they come in. So you're talking about kind of preparing for any proactive actions, but like threats, right? Like, you know, the most serious threats to the country, like I assume, you know, you're having this transition, you're having this handoff. Like these new guys coming in, and they'd been in there before. four years ago, but they're coming back in.

Things have changed. The world has changed. And I presume they're relying on you to brief them on, like, what was out there? Yeah. I mean, ever since Election Day and after which I was put in the position of the going to be the acting senior director, it was on me to make sure that we were prepared, that we had an action plan, that the officers were ready to, you know, a moment they got under the White House compound, they need to be read in to the highest level of programs and, and clearances that our country has because God help us if there's a crisis and not just one caused

by the president himself, but like a real world crisis. This is the new government of the United States, for better or worse. And so on inauguration day, literally minutes after President Trump took the oath, I am in the West Wing, I'm there when J.D. Vance arrives. I am there when the National Security Advisor arrives in his office. And I am right there to give him every tool he needs to make sure that he can manage the U.S. government in a crisis. And we were well along the way to doing that, and it felt as if the fears that many of us had had about the incoming administration were not justified.

When on the third day of the administration, they called 160 NSC staffers into a phone call, and they sacked all of them, pulled them they had 15 minutes to get off the compound. There was no plan to replace them, It would take months to fill in their positions, and some of them never replaced. There was no turnover. And immediately with me and a couple other people in my office, we were just thrown into chaos, trying to hold together the intelligence connections between the multi-billion dollar apparatus

that the United States has around the world to help our president make good decisions. And it was chaos. And it was a completely self-induced crisis. senior directors for many different parts of the world, the incoming Trump administration officials, couldn't get into important intelligence compartments because of this, because the support staff that was supposed to help them

had all been walked off the compound. Like they couldn't get into like the literal, like, the file. What do you mean of a compartment? The filing cabinet or the online? Intelligence is compartmented into different, you know, so that we can ensure that there is security, so that one person doesn't see everything. But the director looking at China needs to be able to know

what the United States knows about China. But the people that would have read them in who would have the contacts and the ability to reach out to departments and agencies that have information had been fired. And in some of those cases, it felt to me, a week later or two, to call those people back, the people that they had humiliated and beg them to come back

and to work and to help this new administration get off the ground. And they did. You're a better person than me, it seems like, which I appreciate. There had to be, though, a moment where you went home at night and we're like, good luck, motherfuckers. I turned the passwords and we'll see how it goes. That was almost every day, to be honest. But it was still my job.

and I had spent 20 years in the intelligence community serving administrations that I didn't agree with that I had voted against many times, but it was still my duty to do that. And it's what I expected of the officers who were serving with me. And, you know, it's just what the intelligence community is designed and should do,

which is part of what is being destroyed right now, as it's being politicized and undermined by walking out some of our most experienced, experienced and respected officers in what will be a generational process of trying to replace them. I wish it was a two-way street, but here we are. I want to turn back the clock a little bit, I think, the part of your column in the Atlantic that people were most taken by, and that was your time with Mike Pence. So previous to this, previous to the Biden administration, the first Trump administration,

you were the person that was providing the daily brief to the vice president. Talk about that, like getting that role, any sort of conflict that you had about that, given my defenses. Why would you ask that, Tim? Yeah, so I had, you know, becoming a PDB briefer and serving a president and briefing on Air Force One, I mean, that's the dream that, like, everyone who goes into the intelligence community to be an analyst, really imagines. And I had, over the course of my career, gotten a brief of George W. Bush at one point,

and I had been in the White House so many times, I couldn't remember, but to get to be a PDB briefer, to wake up at 11 p.m. and be in the office at midnight so that I could be at the White House before dawn and check in with the sit room and be there to help the highest-level policymakers in our government make better decisions by providing them this enormous amount of information and distilling it down to what they needed to know. And it was a wonderful experience. And so I had initially been assigned to the Deputy National Security Advisor when one day my boss comes into my office saying, Julia, you're doing a great job. What would you think about briefing the vice president? And it occurred to me that, you know, this vice president. And so I agreed. And, and,

without thinking too hard, I'm afraid. It was a bit difficult then to explain to my wife what I was about to do. But then just a few days later, I'm standing in the driveway at the Naval Observatory, and there he is Mike Pence with this white helmet hair. And, you know, he says, Julia, tell me something I don't know.

And we were off, and it was just me and Mike Pence. For how long? So I served him for over a year. And then I repeatedly, after my time with him, would come back to fill in for briefers when they would get sick or they'd go on leave. And I kept doing that through to the end of the first administration. So I was in the Trump White House about two years, all said. You wrote this.

When my tour family ended, Pence invited my family to the White House. In his office, he took my mother's hand and smiled, you must be very proud of your daughter. A friend of mine texted me this, and I was like, why am I crying reading about Mike Pence? That's kind of how I felt as well reading it. And at that point, you're there with your wife, and I don't know, what was that like?

It was a profound moment for me. I mean, obviously, you know, I'm not, I wasn't ignorant of his public positions. And I just, I will say, I don't know what's in his heart and what his deepest beliefs are. I just knew that through the last year before, that through traveling around the world with him. He had treated me with dignity and respect and had been an amazing PDB customer really, really effective in giving me that experience that I'd always wanted.

And here he was with my mom, who had had an enormously difficult time with my transition just many years before. And Mike Pence is affirming my gender identity. And I thought we made it. you know, I mean, what more could I possibly ask for? And it was really felt like, you know, no matter what setbacks we could suffer, at least for me, I felt like we were there. And these two dreams that I'd had since I was a kid of being a CIA officer,

and this unexplainable dream of being a woman could coexist in the same universe. The affirming thing, I guess, tell me if I'm translating this, right? But it seems like if your mother is having trouble, with this. It's like, if even Mike fucking Pence can say you've got to be proud of your daughter,

then anybody can. Then I'm accepted everywhere. And it's kind of maybe how I felt about when my mother had a priest that was, you know, had come around on my gay sexuality. Right? And like, is that, is that kind of what you meant? Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, you know, and I had also briefed virtually every senior member of the Trump cabinet, including President Trump on Air Force Wine. And it was never a problem. And not only that, but the vice president had asked me to extend my tour. So if there had ever been an issue, they could have easily had me just fade away without any problems. But no, they wanted me to serve and I did. And so I think that may provide you the context where going into the second term, who's the PDB briefer, the brief Mike Pence? It's going to be fine.

And of course, I was terribly wrong about that. And so you wrote him on the last day, this letter that you write in the article that includes, I'm a transgender CIA officer, a wife and a mother, anything's possible in America. He said, I'm glad I passed the test. I'm wondering, like, what was he like in that moment? Was he, you know, it's hard to tell just based on paper text. Like, was he dismissive? Was it perfunctory?

Did he mean something to him? Did he know the whole time, do you think? So, I mean, his staff knew. and I had talked about it with his chief of staff, both chiefs of staff, that it served under him. It was not a secret, but we never talked about it. You know, it's not my day job. I'm not a professional trans person.

I was there to support him, and it was important to me that I not ever let it get in the way of the briefing. And so what I had done was the day before, my second and last day, I gave him a letter when we were done so that he could read it. I felt like this thing that had laid on the side, this elephant in the room the whole time, I needed to do something to communicate how I felt,

and I wanted to not do it in a way that it would interfere. And so he had taken it home, and the next day he brought it up and said he thanked me for the letter and that he really appreciated my service, and we shook hands. And what I told him in that moment was that there were many at CIA,

for perfectly obvious reasons that thought that a person like me couldn't work for a person like him. And he said, well, I'm glad I passed the test. He brought it up. Right. Well, I had given them the letter. But the next day he brought, he didn't have to do that, right?

Yes, of course. That was the whole point. Yeah. It makes you wonder, like, makes me more mad about what happened in the second term, I guess, is really my reaction to it. Because it's like, if my, Again, if Mike fucking Pence saw value in your service. There's a lot of sentences that begin with that construction.

If Mike fucking Pence saw value in your service, acknowledged it, appreciated it, you continued on, you come back in the second term, and like these guys then just decide to, like, react to this witch hunt and smear and dismiss you. Like, to me it makes it even more galling and enraging. So I would step back.

a little bit because I don't think it's just like a witch hunt at after inauguration. There really was an asteroid coming toward us. And, you know, I had been in the sit room. I had been in the Biden administration watching TV at one point at some ungodly hour of the evening. And there were these commercials that would come on during the campaign. And the Trump administration threw $200 million at a smear campaign to demonize people like me and to tar hit their opponent by association.

And so I could see it coming, but at some level I didn't believe that it would really be as terrible as it was. I thought I could stay and write it out. But I think the point that you're making... Yeah, you're being hard on yourself. I'm being hard on them. You were serving. You were doing what you're supposed to do.

My point is like, Mike Pence was supposedly the Christian ideologue, and you served him honorably. And these guys come in, J.D. Vance and Marco Rubio, and they can you, kick you out. Susie Wiles, Donald Trump, JDB, Smart Corrubio, over nothing, over not your work, but just over who you are. And it's sick.

But it's important to say, though, that while it was a secret, or at least not public, they were perfectly fine with it. And that is the reason why I felt so passionately that I had to write. When I came back, that those three days after I was fired

trying to help do the turnover and finish an important budget item and I had been told to be discreet what became utterly clear to me by the end of those three days was that the White House needed me and they wanted my help but they didn't want anyone to know

and that told me just this kind of animus is a choice it is absolutely a choice and they're making it based on some political calculation. I've talked about in the piece, I've written

PDBs about this, how you demonize a small group of people, you find an enemy within and that helps you ram through your extremist agenda. It's happened in Iran and Russia and Hungary. And I wrote PDPs about this and I had it happen to me while I'm sitting in the White House.

Yeah. I'm circling, like trying to figure out the, like why exactly it is it so going? And I think that That's what it is, right? It's sort of like, these guys, it's so cowardly. It'd be one thing if they were Bible thumpers and they came in and this was just their, you know, they were ideological hardliners on gender ideology and sexuality and whatever. Like, that's not what this was.

Like, that was Mike Pence. And Mike Pence found it in his heart to have some humanity for a person, whatever you think about his public views, which I still disagree with. Like, he found it up. And these guys are like, know, we're going to make an example of you, throw you out, but by the way, we still need your help. Can you help us in secret a little bit for a couple of days? I mean, it's unbelievably cowardly on behalf of the people in charge of this administration. I had really tried to remove any

possible excuse for what ended up happening happening. You know, I started using the bathroom across the street from the compound so that I didn't technically violate anyone's executive order. I never asked anyone to affirm my gender. I just tried to do the work. And it still wasn't enough because, and this is why I labeled the piece the way I did, I just was simply the wrong kind of American to continue working. And that hurt because it's such a bedrock principle

for people who dedicate themselves to public service and just Americans, right, that we can rise as far as our talents can take us. And this was a clear sign that no, actually. some people, we just don't want their kind here. And I got to experience it at the White House. He was a draft dodger, so he didn't even serve the president. You get to the end to what you said or what your dad said. I'll let you say it.

What was the advice that your dad gave you when you were growing up in Hawaii? Oh, yeah. So my grandfather was from an immigrant family from Eastern Europe. And like many immigrant families that you give, you give the kids the talk, which is, you know, this country took us in and you owe it, we owe it everything and you need to work hard for your country. Don't complain, and the country will take care of you. And I took that as an article of faith. And I got to live it where, you know, I transitioned at CIA. I became the first officer to successfully transition and stay.

And the country took care of me. You know, I got to be Mike Pence's PD. briefer and the country took care of me and you know i really thought that that fundamental principle would hold and it just it's just as failed and so we're we're in a in a dangerous time now and i couldn't continue to serve if it meant i couldn't tell my story you know i've lived in this parallel universe for the last several six years where you know mike pence had a gay trans pb briefer and no one cared. And I kept it to myself. Me and several hundred other CIA officers all who knew this, you know, and that was just the deal. That was the bargain. We kept politics away from the work. Have you heard from him like that once? No. No, the last time I met, which I write about in the

piece was actually the meaning in his office after January 6th. He had called all of his previous briefers back for a farewell. So it was just me and a few other people that had worked for him over the course of the term. And we're all gathering around describing to him what this experience had meant for us. You know, we're just a few feet from the Oval Office down the hall. And when it got to me, and it was just a week after January 6th, I'm tearing up. And I said, you know, sir, what you did last week, I've never been more proud to have served you. you know he had done his duty to the country and certified the election of his opponent

you know which is a vast vastly greater thing than me you know briefing him but it felt like we had all honored our oaths you know it was a very important moment to me and he said that you know thank you that means a lot to me there are two other strings in the article i wanted to ask you about just curiosity was piqued so loomer comes for you right like the first hundred sixty or five and then Lumer is posting and saying, oh, there's a transgender, whatever, the CIA, and the N.C. They should be fired. They should be kicked out. Do you ever figure out how she knew?

I mean, you were an intelligence officer. Good, good point. Another failure of mine. No. Go on. No, I never have. Here's what I know, right? Laura Lumer doesn't sit in the situation room.

she doesn't get invited into the Oval Office. She doesn't sneak onto the compound and get to the president with a list of names of people to fire. I know that the other people that were sacked that sent away after that day, it was like April 2nd of 2025, almost all of them are like rock-ribbed Republicans, people with impeccable credentials,

but apparently not extremist enough for the administration. So someone, someone, you can't just walk onto the compound by yourself. So someone decided that, whether it was me or the others, that calling a right-wing provocateur influence on the Internet was the right way to get rid of us. And that was really hurtful in the purest sense that that's just not who we are as a country. And I just couldn't believe that this was happening. and it was another sign that we'd crossed into some really dangerous new place.

Yeah. I mean, it's not who we were, I think. Back to your grandfather's point, I just think things have changed. Unfortunately, this administration, that's going to be work to change it back. The other thing that you said it was interesting that's, well, I guess it's probably not going to be helpful anymore. I'm sorry. I was trying to end on a helpful note, but you'd written anonymously a couple years ago about your journey being a CIA office. and you wrote something interesting about how you thought that your transition helped you and made you a better officer. And I wanted to hear more about that. I think in a number of ways. I mean, for one thing, this enormous weight, this, like a cloud hanging over me, was finally lifted. I often describe it like, you know, if you discover you need glasses for the first time,

And you're like, why did no one tell me about this? You know, the world is filled with color and, you know, crisp and wonderful. And so it had been this enormous drag on me that had gotten worse and worse and worse. And once it was lifted, my life just became this new, great and wonderful thing, just getting to be myself. And, you know, that was the first and foremost thing. But, you know, there were other experiences with it, you know, being an immigrant across the gender divide, you learn a few things about the workplace and you start getting targeted on your, you know, algorithm with yogurt ads and fertility treatments and things like that. But it, you know, I learned a lot

about how the other 50% of the population lives. And it was for an analyst, it was quite eye-opening. And I think it helped me examine a lot of my assumptions that made me a better analyst. Yeah. It's cool. No, when you mentioned where it's like younger people would come up to you and talk about how that essay you'd written pseudonymously, it kind of like inspired them to go into this kind of work, like not knowing that they were talking to the author. Yeah, right. So you're referencing the piece I wrote after my transition.

CIA in our effort to recruit and to show that diversity would strengthen the agency, asked me to do interviews and to do in pseudonym so I could keep serving as CIA officer. And I decided to write these pieces in the agency. Atlantic where I talked about my journey because we wanted to send the message to young Americans that it's safe. You can join. We need you. You can serve your country and have this great, wonderful life. And one of the reasons why it was so important for me to write this now was that these pieces were still out there. And it's not Joe anymore. And several people had come to me who had joined CIA subsequent to those pieces,

saying that they had joined because of them. And you know what? A couple of those people were fired by this administration. And that betrayal, I feel deeply. And I wanted the chance to tell their story and correct the record. And, you know, when I had transitioned, I had been given enormous assistance by older.

of trans people that showed me the path toward finding myself and helped me in my darkest days. But their price that they had asked me in return was to pay it forward, that I would not disappear, which many trans people do. It's perfectly understandable. You're trying to just be normal. And they had told me I couldn't do that. And so part of that was every year I would come out with a, you know, you're not alone letter to my colleagues. I wrote those pieces in 2017, so the people would know where they're here.

And now with this piece, like, I don't know how much more out I could possibly be, but the bottom line is that someone like me was able to have a wonderful and great life and have a family and work in the White House twice. And so whatever arguments there are about our unfitness for positions of honor and are just wrong. and I would be damned if another generation would grow up like I did and not know that someone like them could have a life like the one I've lived. And so I was very happy to get to do that and set the record straight.

Me too. How's your family? How's your wife? They're okay. It's not been... Yeah, it's been very hard. It's a scary time for all of us. I wrote in the piece that the White House and its online mob could come from me. And I know that's possible, but... It is possible, but they're all a bunch of cowards. They were cowards for firing you, and they're going to be cowards when they come at you from behind your keyboard.

So I want you to know that there's an unbelievable amount of people that are supporting you as well. I heard from so many people about your piece who reached out to me, apropos of not knowing we're going to be talking or anything. And so it is really resonated. And if there's anything that you are the family need from a support standpoint, you know where to come, okay? I appreciate it, Tim. Thank you so much.

I hate these fucking people so much too. You have no idea how much I hate them. And I really admire the grace and restraint that you've shown because let me tell you, I guess I'll handle the hate fire for you. in the meantime. All right. Thank you. Okay. Julia Curley, appreciate you so much for taking the time to come to talk to us and stay in touch, okay?

It's my pleasure. Demetrius is Marianne now. He's more confident to live his plan now. But the family in disbelief this time convincing himself seeing living discreet. He's fine. They said they never seen it in him, but I've seen it. The Barbie dogs played off reflection of Venus. He built a wall so tall you couldn't climb over.

He didn't laugh as hard when the kids started. joking. I had to be very mindful, my good cousin. I knew exactly who he was, but I still loved him. The Bullwark Daily is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper, Associate producer Ansley Skipper, and with video editing by Dante DeChico and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.