The Bulwark Podcast - Justin Jones: The Assault On Multiracial Democracy in the South

Episode Date: May 20, 2026

Tennessee is on the front lines of the racialized politics that has resurfaced in the South since SCOTUS gutted the Voting Rights Act. Its Jim Crow legislature stripped the people of Memphis of congressional representation for their majority-black city, and Democratic legislators have been punished for protesting the move. The state is looking less like a democracy by the day. Meanwhile, Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina, and Louisiana are also working on dismantling black political power in their states. Plus, Trump is the anti-farmer president, Stephen Miller is still running an immigration crackdown, and Tim sees promising signs in Tom Massie’s loss in Kentucky. Tennessee's Rep. Justin Jones joins Tim Miller.show notes Jones on Hannity in January San Diego Mayor Todd Gloria and our own MAGA culture expert, Will Sommer, joins the gang on stage at Bulwark Live: San Diego TONIGHT. And on Thursday at Bulwark Live: LA our friends Jane Coaston, Jon Favreau, Erin Ryan from Crooked Media, The Ringer’s Van Lathan and progressive commentator Brian Tyler Cohen will join Sarah, Tim and Sam on stage. Grab your seats at TheBulwark.com/Events Get $35 off your first box of wild-caught, sustainable seafood—delivered right to your door. Go to: https://www.wildalaskan.com/BULWARK.

Hello and welcome to the Bullard podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We are going to get to my guy, Justin Jones, here in a minute and talk a lot about what's going on in Tennessee and across the deep south, really, when it comes to the gutting of the Voting Rights Act. And we'll react to J.D. Vance's comments about the slush fund reparations that the administration is offering to MAGA insurrectionists and why he thinks that's important. because nobody has any empathy for them. And people have too much empathy for those black criminals. Anyway, we'll get into all that with Justin Jones, great guy. But first, we pre-taped that yesterday because I'm flying to San Diego for our event tonight today.

And so I wanted to run down some thoughts on all of the political news we've had over the last 24 hours, which is a bunch. first and most noteworthy, I think, is the Thomas Massey loss in Kentucky for primary. I have a little bit of a different take on this than what I've seen out there. Massey ends up getting about 45% of the vote. The time of this taping, there's about 4% more to trickle in, but he's going to be at about 45% of the vote. That's not nothing. And it's not that close to winning. but to think that 45% of Republican primary voters in a somewhat suburban exurban,

but somewhat rural district in Kentucky, bucked Trump is a change. Like, it is a sign that, like, his grip is loosening somewhat on the party faithful. We haven't had anything else like this. when Liz Cheney ran for re-election to her house seat after she had voted to impeach Trump, she got 28.9% of the vote.

She was annihilated. This is meaningfully different than that. And it's meaningfully different because Massey went after Trump on a couple of issues that are core to the base and that Trump has betrayed either his promises or, you know, Republican Party thinking and rhetoric on those very issues. So, like, for example, with the Iran war vote, Massey, I think now has gained a lot of credibility with people who were genuine in their belief that America should not be involved in stupid foreign wars in the Middle East. And he bucked Trump on that, obviously the Epstein files and, you know, covering up for

the elites that have access and wealth and. were not being held accountable for their crimes. Massey was aggressive on that, and obviously Massey is strong on debt and spending, another issue that I think is going to continue to plague Trump as interest rates increase. So, like, that is, like, a basket of issues that Massey has distinguished himself from Trump on that is different than kind of, like, never Trump or one point now, right? Like, my people.

Like, we oppose Trump on some issues, sure, but it was mostly a, about his character, about whether he was qualified to lead the country, you know, his corruption, you know, like whether, you know, we would trust this person to be in charge of a fucking dairy queen. Forget the country. You're like, we, like, we oppose Trump because of Trump, the man. Like, Massey opposed Trump because of Trump's failure on three issues where he perceives, and I think I agree with him, that he's closer to the repris. Republican base and Trump is. And the results of that was getting 45% of the vote, not too far from 50%. I think that, to me, shows that there's a lane there. And I think that that lane could get bigger if Trump gets worse and worse.

And I've said this a lot of times on T&L talking with Sarah and JVL. I think for people who really locked into politics in 2016, and this is an important kind of recent history lesson. Like George W. Bush, like part of the reason why the reason why the Bush line that Sarah talks about matters. George W. Bush got so unpopular that he wasn't invited to another Republican convention ever again. He wasn't invited to 08 for McCain, 12,

for Romney, obviously any of the Trump conventions. The party base decided they wanted to move on from him. That feels possible with Trump, right? And what I bet on it, is that the most likely outcome? No, of course. The most likely outcome is that, you know, Trump is a kingmaker and that the cult sticks

with him and that he, you know, anoints whoever he wants to be the next nominee. Be that a family member or Marco or J.D. or someone else that emerges. And that's the most likely outcome. But like, that's not a guaranteed outcome.

And this kind of reminds me a little bit of the Platner discourse that we had a couple weeks ago where JVL floated. Like, I don't know. He overstated the case. He said like a 33% chance platinum is the nominee. But his range is like five to 33%. And everybody's like crazy,

crazy. This is crazy. It's like, well, I mean, obviously, it's crazy in a certain extent. But like,

in recent times in politics, like the successful two-term presidents, Obama and Trump, like both ran against the party establishment because the prior party establishment wasn't popular. And like right now, the Democratic Party establishment isn't popular. And I think Trump's popularity is on the wane. Like, is it going to fall enough

that someone who challenged him as directly as Massey could be the nominee. I like, that's a crazy thing to say, right? But like, does the messy results show like what a successful challenge to Trump could look like two years from now? If the war is an even greater catastrophe, if the economy is even worse, if the corruption and the cover-up of Epstein looks even worse once we learn new information, if, you know, the Democrats could take control of the House and Robert Garcia and his crew are successful in uncovering more information? that's possible. And that is like in the potential range of outcomes right now. And so when they were chanting Massey 2028 at his concession speech,

that's a little bit intriguing to me. I'm not saying Massey's going to be the 2028 nominee. That'd be a ridiculous thing to say. But like, he now has demonstrated that you can gain a base of support within the party. You can overcome the most amount of money ever spent again. someone in a House primary, offer a clear issue set, offer a clear rationale

for your candidacy and get 45% and if that's a four-way primary, he wins. So, I don't know. I think that obviously, you know, the Trump team is going to crow. The, you know, political prognosticators and pundits are going to talk about how you can't betray Trump in the party.

Look at Cassidy. Look at Massey. Look at the Indiana. a state house. And that's true. I mean, like, it's, it happened. But there's something happening under the surface that I don't want to dismiss. And so it sucks that Thomas Massey lost. It sucks that there's going to be another mega AI chapbot in Congress. It sucks that Trump can crow. It sucks that, you know, next year there'll be one less vote for, you know, potential bipartisanship on issues of, you know, war, obscene, et cetera. but as he gets to stay in there to the end of the year,

and I think he's going to continue to cause Trump trouble, and I think that his critiques of the administration are going to continue to be borne out. So I guess all I'm saying is, let's see how it plays out. Let's maybe have a little bit of humility and predictions and the possible outcomes and analysis about how things might develop in our politics

because things have changed really quick. I said in like the old days, man. These political tectonic plates are moving a lot quicker than they used to. So that's that. Speaking of Massey continued to create trouble for Trump over the next few months, as he is a lame duck member of the House. We're seeing that already in the Senate. Bill Cassidy on Tuesday said he was opposed to the ballroom funding.

And he supported the resolution that would end the around. on war without the Trump administration coming to Congress and getting a vote. So a war powers resolution vote. So on the one hand, it's a little revealing. I mean, it's a little lame. It's kind of like the old line from football coach Dennis Green, they are what we thought they were. Cassidy is what they said he was, not a MAGA, a phony that was faking it to try to win

election. And that is contemptible, honestly, and a little embarrassing. That said, we are where we are. And guess it's better to have him up there being the turn in Trump's punch bowl for a couple months than the alternative. And opposing the ballroom was good, but the war powers vote is pretty significant. So what happens here is you had Cassidy, Rand Paul, Susan Collins, and Murkowski voting yes on the resolution. So Collins also flipping and she's, I think, very vulnerable on this issue. And I don't know if this vote is going to save her

since she's been lukewarm, supportive of Trump throughout this disaster. And obviously, Graham Platner is fiery hot opposed to this action in Iran. So you'd Cassidy, Paul, Collins, and Murkowski voting yes with the Democrats. You had Federman voting no with the Republicans. It was a procedural vote.

but there's going to be a final vote on this. You assume that the vote stays the same. That's 50 to 47. So that's a majority in favor of the war powers resolution. So, you know, that would have to go to the House. That was a tie vote in the House. Thanks to Maine Congressman Jared Golden, who was for some reason. I think it's pretty important to find out what that reason is, actually,

because there's a lot of speculation and rumor out there, but for some reason gave the tie-breaking vote to block this resolution in the House. But, you know, things are changing really fast down there. And so, you know, potentially this could go to the House and put some type of limit on Trump's war powers. Like, all of that remains to be seen. But it is definitely significant and notable that Bill Cassidy's true colors are showing. It's funny, isn't it? It's kind of frustrating, honest.

that as soon as Republicans no longer need Trump's support because they're retiring or because they've been defeated or their career is over, all of a sudden they start sounding like the bulwark, which makes me think that there's a lot of Republicans who are privately with the bulwark. And I fucking hate those guys more than I hate the mega guys. It's like, where are you? Come on out. Come on the show. I've invited Bill Cassidy on the show. Come on the show. It seems like we agreed this whole time on the ballroom and the Iraq.

on war, but you don't want to say it. Anyway, frustrating. The other big political news, of course, is the Texas Senate seat. I did a big rant about this over on the Borg takes feed because I couldn't save it for the pod. I was too, was I fired up? What's the right word? I was just, I was kind of giddy.

I was too giddy about Big Bad John Corny getting totally cucked by Donald Trump. Go sit in the cuck chair, John. For those of you sickos like me who remember, God, what would have been 2014? Senate race probably that he was in. Corny had this ad. Big John. Big Bad John. Talked about how Big Bad John wore a big bad cowboy hat and sat on a big horse and rode around Big Texas because he was a man.

and big bad John groveled the Trump, tried to name a highway after Trump, pretended like you read Trump's book, was Trump's little, you know, kind of Trump's little butt boy on the airplane. Yes, sir, Mr. Trump, sir, you're so great, sir. All for nothing. Trump didn't care of wit.

He knew that he had to, he didn't need the MAGA base any more upset of him than they already were, and so he's going to stick with the MAGA guy. So now John Corny's, And big bad John goes into retirement. Tiny bad John. Little bad John, little man.

So that tickled me. That text rate is going to be interesting. I think it helps Talariko. Maybe not as much as the conventional wisdom would indicate, but it helps them a little bit that it's going to be Paxton, not Cornyn for sure. And, boys, that can be a fun race to watch now. So the politics gods gifted us on that one. All right, you'll know that I have been on the leading edge of doomerism when it comes to the economic fallout from the war lately.

Then listening to my business podcast, you know things are bad when I'm listening to Odd Lots. I'm on the gas price charts. I'm looking at WTI oil charts, checking my futures, looking at my investment accounts. Things are really bad if I know the price of helium. and I'm telling you, I don't know the price of a carton of eggs, but I do know the price of helium. So if you're like me, you're worried about your financial future. One thing that you might turn to right now to get some certainty is life insurance. That's why I've been checking out the select quote for a life insurance policy.

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one of the Tennessee three, a trio of Democrats who first drew national attention in 2023 when they were expelled by Republicans for their advocacy of stricter gun laws after a mass shooting in Nashville. And now he's been at the forefront of pushing back again. Tennessee's racist gerrymandering scheme. It's Justin Jones. Good to see again, man. How you doing? Good to see you, brother.

We're pushing forward. Man, I want to focus a lot on what's happening in Tennessee and then a couple other national things. But why don't you just paint a picture for folks about what's been happening since the gutting of the Voting Rights Act? And then we can talk about some of the elements of it. You know, since the Louisiana v. Clay decision, Tennessee was the first state to dismantle black political power in our state diluting and eliminating the last

remaining majority of black district. What I told folks is that when I walked into the capital that day, it was 2026. And when I walked out, it was pre-1965. We've seen the biggest attack on black political representation in the South since the end of reconstruction. And it all came because when that decision came out, Donald Trump called the governor of Tennessee personally. And we were back in a special session a few days later. And within 24 hours between the committee and the House floor, this map had become law. And that's what we saw. We've seen some, you know, with surgical precision, the carving out of majority of black districts, not just in Tennessee, but Louisiana, you know, we see your maps are now under threat, as well as Mississippi, South Carolina, and Alabama.

The Tennessee case is so stark, and I don't know, we're probably heading that way eventually in Louisiana, but I just think it's particularly egregious as an example, the way in which they divided up Memphis, and I played the audio the other day of, you know, the Republican representative, like, pretending like he didn't know, you know, what the black makeup of Memphis was, even though they divided the city up into thirds. And like, now you have a situation with the new maps where Memphis and Nashville, like, basically don't have representatives. And obviously, you know, the racial context in Memphis is stark. But just from like a democracy standpoint, you know, I don't know, how can you even call Tennessee a democracy if people in the two largest cities

don't have representation? Just to give a vision. Just to give a vision. for viewers, Memphis, which is a 51% black population, is now connected to a county 300 miles away, you know, all the way to Williamson County, 300 miles away as a way to dilute that black vote in a majority of black city. My district, where I represent here in Nashville, my community, represents the most diverse district. And so what we saw here at the federal level was if you drive from one crispy cream in Nashville to another crispy cream on the outskirts of Nashville in Brentwood, you pass through five congressional districts driving just 30 minutes, 30-minute drive, five congressional districts. That's how absurd these maps are. And it was done intentionally. And for

the Speaker of the House to say he did not know the racial breakup of Memphis or he's not familiar with those demographics, I just want to show you some, just to show you where these ideas are coming from, the Speaker of the House posted this yesterday. And it's him with Stephen Miller in the White House, giving him a proclamation for the partnership between Stephen Miller and in Tennessee's state government. And so we see where this racialized politics is coming from. It's coming from directly from 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Donald Trump again called the governor as soon as the Louisiana Clay decision came out. Stephen Miller's now celebrating with the Speaker of the House, all of these racist attacks on the Black and Brown community. And Black and Brown, Tennessee is make up 25% of the

population. Now, every single one of Tennessee's nine congressional districts is majority white. That does not sound like multiracial democracy to me. And I mean, they're expanded down to the State House level. And this was the big fight in 2023 when you guys got expelled, but they're doing it again. I mean, last week, all members of the House Democratic Caucus were removed from their committees and subcommittees? Is that right? To make it more egregious, I think there's an addendum and added that we found out. I think that Tennessee Hollow was the first report on this. All Democrats except the white men in our caucus were removed from their committees. And so what came out was that the white men, four of them, Representative Clemens,

representative of Mitchell, representative Freeman, representative of Hammer, were not removed from their committees. And so they were kept on the state website and then they just were allowed to resign on their own because the speaker did not remove them. So it does show that they see race, you know, in that regard. And I think it's just, it shows that we're dealing with the Jim Crow legislature and what we saw was intentional. It was an attempt to turn back the clock of history. And they represent the George Wallace and the Bull Connors in the 21st century. And I think that, you know, Tennessee is the tip of the spear of us we've been saying when we said you were, when you were here in Nashville, we said the same thing. Tennessee is the front line. But we have to fight it here

because if we don't, it's going to spread across this nation. Yeah, we're seeing it. I mean, look, like this is where, you know, it sounds alarmist, right? And I alluded to it. But like when you put those things together, right, when you put together no representation for these big cities, no representation for people of color and the federal legislature, the banishment of you guys from committees, you know, the expulsion in 2023. I mean, this is a state autocracy, right? Like, it's not a democracy.

And that, I think probably if you accept that, it changes what a response to it should be, right? Yeah. I mean, if this was happening anywhere else in the world, we would call it, you know, authoritarianism. We would call it, you know, an attack on democracy. And yet it's happening here in a very subtle, sophisticated way. They're using the language of gerrymandering. And they want to make it partisan, Tim. And one thing we've been very intentional about is that this was a racial gerrymander.

This was not a partisan tit for tat. It was about explicitly, you know, in response to the dismantling the Voting Rights Act, the crown jewel of the civil rights movement. And the fact that it's happening in the South, you see the language being used in Mississippi, the governor, talked about the last black congressman there about ending his reign of terror. These are the types of things you heard at the, you know, at the end of reconstruction when they, you know, ran out all the black representatives at the federal level. And so I think we'd be very keen on what is happening here. We're seeing an assault on multiracial democracy across the south.

You're hearing people talk about the southern strategy again, like Congressman Andy Ogles from Tennessee. I mean, it is very, it's not alarmist. And I think that history of judges, not by what we do, but by what we don't do in this moment. We have to respond with proportionate response. And we have to, you know, call on our. allies across this country to stand with us in the South in this time because the South, again, is the front line in our fight for democracy in this nation. So what does proportionate response look like?

Like, what are you thinking about doing down there? I mean, multiple things. I just got back from Montgomery. We saw one of the largest mass mobilization since the 60s of folks from all across the South and all across the country gathering federal leaders, moral leaders, clergy, mothers, activists, gathering in Montgomery where Dr. King stood in 1965, fighting for the voting rights act to number one, lift up that this is a struggle rooted in the civil rights movement. We're seeing an assault on the civil rights movement. That's why you saw people crossing the Edmund Pettus Bridge again.

And so telling people, number one, we have to invest in the South and not just quote-unquote battleground states like North Carolina and Georgia, but coming down to Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee, the states that have for so long been forgotten, South Carolina. And number two, we need some of these, you know, other states to respond. California and Virginia, I think we're the only ones that responded by doing their own new maps in response to Texas in response to what's happening across these other states. But there's other states that can follow in New York, in Colorado, in New Jersey, you know, in Illinois.

There are states that need to respond because what Donald Trump is doing, he's making it almost impossible for us to retake the house from his MAGA extremists who are taking hold of our government right now. And so we have to respond proportionally and recognize that this is not an ordinary moment. And so we have to do things out of the ordinary as we fight back against these MAGA. terrorists who've taken our country hostage. I think that's the only thing we can call them. Yeah. I mean, so you're down there in Selma. I said you're going to Jackson, you know, where this kind of fight is ongoing. I think we probably have a lot of listeners who are, like,

frustrated, like what can I, especially they're living in other states, like, what can I do, like, how can I engage? What does mass mobilization look like? Like, I have a campaign question for you in a second, but I'm going to like table that. Like, what does it look like from just from a protest from a public action, Stan? point. Yeah. I mean, I think one, if you're in the states, you can call on the governors of these states to say, you know, we are not in the South right now, but we can stand in solidarity with the South. You know, in response to Tennessee's gerrymander, Illinois should respond, you know, again, proportionally or New York should respond and say, okay, we are in the fight against this new

Confederacy, and it's going to take a United Front of United States to take on this confederacy again. This is like a civil war. We're in the midst of right now with these southern governors. I'm number two, looking at folks in these states to help build infrastructure. I think a lot of people are paying attention to the federal level right now, but all these changes are being done at the state level. And these state seats can be flipped with infrastructure, with investment. And that's how we can stop these gerrymins from happening. I mean, ultimately, we need to have a federal ban on partisan gerrymander.

I think that's the only logical response. But as it stands now, we have to ask these states who have control, who have Democratic control. to respond in kind to what the South is doing right now with these red states. But also, if you're a regular person, I think, you know, really finding ways to find organizations on the ground, whether it's in Mississippi or Alabama, we had so many organizations when we were in Montgomery who are doing the hard work of trying to respond by having a mass voter registration in response to this mass voter suppression that we're seeing.

And so, like, supporting those organizations, supporting independent media who are telling the actual truth. Like your podcast, like I see your hat of my dear brother there, Tennessee Holler. I mean, these are the ones who the folks who are on the ground. around with us, amplifying these stories that are often getting erased in mainstream conversations. And so we need to continue to amplify that what's happening right now is not normal and that we have to sound the alarm in this moment of crisis where we can potentially lose the marks in the South, and then we'll lose it in this nation.

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You know, and I think that some of that was like you're saying voter registration, getting people engaged, able to wake up that hadn't been as engaged in 2024. I think we're seeing some of that. I think it's possible to do persuasion on this, too. It's just so overt, you know, that I think that a lot of people, obviously, in particular, black voters, but I think even a lot of white voters and voters from other races, like, look at this. They're like, this is not the country that I want to be, right? Like, I don't want to be in a country where we're eliminating all of the black representation in the south, like we're going back to Jim Crow, right? And so do you think that there is a

persuasion and mobilization possibility that can create some backlash from a campaign standpoint? And in Tennessee, I do think it's a big uphill battle. Those districts were all carved out quite intentionally. But I don't know. What do you think? Is there a democratic hope here at the ballot box? Or have they rigged the system so much that that's not likely? I think so, I mean, you know, there were members. I want to say, you know, who had conscience and who did not vote for this. It was very few of them. I think it was just six of my Republican colleagues, but I think that they're, we're hearing from Republican voters that this does not represent conservative values, that this is not represent, you know, those who believe, you know, the process should work where you can just choose your voters, you know,

voters should choose who their elected officials are. It shouldn't be the other way around. And particularly when it's so blatant where you're drawing literally like, it looks like a scorpion or like a, you know, a sea monster where it's like starting here, a little tip in Memphis and coming out into this big Leviathan 300 miles away. I mean, it's going to end up with rural counties being disenfranchised as well because if you have a congressman who lives four hours away, they're not going to come and pay attention to your constituent relations when you need to get a passport or when you need help with unemployment.

Because we're seeing that right now. We have one of the most extreme members are representing Nashville, Andy Ogles, and he doesn't serve urban or rural counties. He serves himself. And what we're seeing is that he's serving his pocketbooks by stealing money, but that's a whole other conversation. And so I think, you know, we have to build coalitions. You know, I've seen it serving on the Agriculture Committee, these unusual coalitions that

can transform our state and transform the South. And so I think there is hope. I don't lose hope in our voters. But I do think that there are some men in some room strategizing how to make this so that, you know, no matter what happens, they maintain control because Donald Trump is so desperate to hold on to the Congress because he knows that he can't win fairly. And so I think, you know, that's why as soon as the decision came out, they had these maps ready.

These maps they had been working on all year waiting for the Supreme Court to rule. And then we were back within less than, you know, what, three days. we were back in session. You mentioned Ogles a couple times. Corrupt. Scott Dejolet jumps out to me also, somebody who's particularly corrupt and they're both disgusting

and their rhetoric and extreme and have horrific personal judgment. All of these guys are pretty bad across every possible metric. What is the thought about getting Democratic candidates into those races, like finding somebody that can win that can get a big tent coalition?

Like, how are you thinking about that? Well, you know, the deadline has passed. That's how quick this happens. So like all the, all those races, the deadline has passed. I know there's candidates running. But again, this all happened in such an unusual way. It gave them like just five days to finalize who the new candidates are. When we're getting calls, people don't even know what district they live in. You know, they're like, well, I was in this district and my neighbor's in this district, but I'm in this district. You know, like, that's how absurd this is. So people don't know what district that they're in. They don't know who's even running anymore. You've had candidates who've been campaigning for the whole year. And now they're in a tough, completely new district. You know, Andy Ogles was running it for a district in Nashville, and now he's running for a district that is part of Memphis. And so that's what we're looking at right now. The one of the courts, when you were first expelled in 23, you sued Speaker Sexton over that, was dismissed by a judge. Like, what's your sense for what the legal potential opportunities are? Yeah. I mean, there's still, I know there was four lawsuits filed after this, but unfortunately, it was a Supreme Court that created this mess and does not seem like the Supreme Court's going to get us

out of this mess. We have a captured court right now. And the Sixth Circuit, which we are in at the federal level, has a lot of Trump appointees. And so we don't expect a lot of relief. I believe that they blocked the injunction to try and stop these maps from taking effect. The court has already blocked that injunction from taking effect. And so, you know, that's the difference between now in the 1960s. And the 60s in the civil rights movement, you had a Supreme Court that was friendly to civil rights about protecting minority voice. And now we have a Supreme Court that's the opposite. That is full of stooges of the, you know, the president and who, who don't rule based off of equal protection under law, but who rule under, you know,

whatever the Trump administration says, that's what they do. And so that's what we're facing, unfortunately, with the legal system here. But we do have, there's litigation ongoing. You know, I sued the Speaker. And unfortunately, the court ruled that he has sovereign immunity. This Trump appointed judge ruled in my case of two years that he has sovereign immunity. And so it just emboldens them even further to do these, you know, reprehensible things that are attacks against our democracy. What do you feel like your fellow Dems and you were with AOC and Selma? Like, are folks giving you the fight and support that you need down there?

Like what, I guess what's your thought on the party broadly? I mean, I mean, I think everyone who showed up in Selma, you had AOC, you had Raphael Warnock, you had members of the Congressional Black Caucus, including those who are going to be impacted because we may lose up to up one third of the Black Caucus at the congressional level, which is something we haven't seen since the end of Reconstruction. And so you had Melanie Stansebury. You have folks who showed up, and I thought, I think that matters. You know, for so long, you wouldn't see these national folks, you know, coming to the deep south. They would come to just two states, North Carolina and Georgia, the quote-unquote battleground states. And I don't think you saw them in Louisiana either where you live and where the Speaker of the House lives. But I think you're seeing people understand the importance of the South, you know, as AOC said, it's time for the North to pull up on the South and to stand up because what happens in Tennessee is connected to what happens in New York.

And what happens in Alabama is connected to what happens in Massachusetts. is we are interconnected in this fight right now. And so I think that was encouraging to see. We do need to see more support from the federal DNC, you know, to showing up not just in swing states, but in states that, as I like to say, that we'll swing back and that we're fighting with everything we have, you know, with very little resources and infrastructure.

I think we're seeing that shift now. You know, I was in California. I met with the governor. They were talking about what's happening here. I know he's been vocal and lifting up what's going on, you know, they've been talking to folks across this country and people are asking how they can help. They want to show up for like a freedom summer

where they come to the South and help do voter registration, Canvas launches. That's the type of thing we have to be thinking about right now. And so I think that gives me hope. And it gives me, you know, some clarity to recognize that people are seeing what's at stake and they're recognizing the fierce urgency of now. And they're seeing with moral clarity that if they come from one of us, they're coming for all of us.

I want to ask you about a couple other issues that are going on down there. And people don't even really talk about it anymore because there's so much other craziest going on. but there was the Memphis Safe Task Force, you know, and the invasion of Memphis from the federal government. Like what, it feels like all that's out of the news. But like what's actually happening on the ground? What's the latest with that?

Yeah, I mean, you still have the National Guard occupying the city of Memphis. You have ICE agents who are running rampant across our state terrorizing folks who are just trying to get to work. And the difference between folks, and you're, again, in this house, so you know this. But for those who are not, like, if you're in Minnesota or California, New York, The difference is that the state government is trying to at least protect their people. They're not doing this in coordination. A lot of these operations are joint operations between the state government and Tennessee and the federal government.

And so when ICE was doing their raids of my district, it was a Tennessee Highway Patrol who was a part of those who there was a joint operation where they're using THP to make traffic stops about your taillight was out or your tent was too dark. And then ICE would arrest people who had committed no crime, but under those pretextual, you know, stops. And so that's what we're seeing here. And that's also why, you know, Stephen Miller has been. champion his partnership with Tennessee. Tennessee was the first state to pass 10 bills that came directly from Stephen Miller going after undocumented immigrants. That's why the speaker was up there celebrating that partnership because we're the first state that he said he wanted to test these bills out, like English-only driver's license about going after undocumented kids in schools,

not adults, children in schools and getting their data or then you can target their parents. All these abhorrent things that I think history is going to look very shamefully upon are happening in Tennessee right now. On the national, I want to talk to you about this slush fund that Donald Trump has created for himself. I guess he felt like he had emotional distress because his tax returns got leaked. So he's suing his own DOJ and his own DOJ said, hey, $1.8 billion that Donald Trump and his friends can hand out to whoever they want. We won't know what they're doing with it. I was going to kicking this around yesterday with my colleagues about how

this is just basically like reparations but for white insurrectionists. Like that's really what it is. Like they just want the government to hand out reparations to their friends. Maybe it's also corruption too. But I just, what do you think, you know, and is this kind of thing that you think could resonate? Like, what is your reaction to that? Yeah, I mean, that's the best way to put it, Tim. I think it should alarm us that we are basically rewarding those who,

folks who violently attacked our nation and attacked our democratic process. We had many of them from Tennessee, the zip tie guy. These are folks who came here who, you know, we're planning to commit violence against both Democrat and Republican officials, and yet we're rewarding that on the 250th anniversary of America. You know, I think the amount was 1776, 1.776 billion. And it is so blatant that this is what, you know, it's kind of like a call and response. It seems like this is what he wants to continue to instigate. And we're seeing these vigilante forces. That's what ISIS has become, this rogue police force that is at the whim of the president, not even, you know, enacting in accordance with the Constitution or within its guidelines or parameters. You know,

these insurrectionists, it seems like he's doing a call and response. Are they going to be at our polling places next? You know, come November, are they going to be targeting brown people and black people when we try and go vote? I mean, this is what we have to worry about, particularly when the president is rewarding them financially for behavior that should have been criminally punished and was and then he pardoned them. And so, I mean, again, it's, it beckons back to if you study the Confederacy and the end of reconstruction, this is what happened. And then we got Jim Crow and we got the terrorism of that Jim Crow enacted across the South and honestly across this nation. I bet you haven't thought about this, but I'm going to throw this idea out to you. Maybe you

should think about it as an opportunity. I don't know. You've been targeted by the government unfairly. Maybe the Democrats can get back in power and think about the types of people you could you could compensate with a slush fund. I don't know. The next Democrat. Democratic president could just go in there and go to the DOJ and say, I think we should settle for $3.2 billion. Think about all the different groups you could hand out that money to. Yeah. I mean, you know, see, I don't think that our side is things like this. Like, you know, this is a man who thinks about how to enrich his pockets and his cronies and his friends. And, you know, we're thinking, how do we make this a nation at peace with itself? You know, how to, you know,

post-Trump, we're going to have to go through a truth and reconciliation process like South Africa after apartheid. I think we're going to have to do something to heal this nation. because there's a wound that's been open. And I hope we get to that point post-Trump, because it seems like he doesn't want to leave. He has a lot of projects going on that are going to require more than four years of his time in office. And so to me, I think it's very terrifying what we may see in the years to come. We'll see what happens in November. It's clear it's not going to be a fair election. We're starting to see that now. But what extent will he go to maintain a hold of power? There's nothing more dangerous than a wounded animal, and he's wounded and his

ego wounded, you know, and retaliating. And so I think we have to really have our guard up and be prepared to respond with rapid response. But, you know, I hope that whoever is the next Democratic president will not make the same mistake and that we cannot allow this behavior to go on unchallenged without accountability. We have to hold these folks accountable. He should have never been able to run for president to begin with post-insurrection. You know, I think Merritt Garland has a lot of answers that the public is looking for. And what he should be doing, I think Mayor Garland, he should be offering free legal support to folks who are being targeted right now. He should, him and his firm, because he did not do his job as attorney general. And so maybe he should be finding

pro bono lawyers for people being targeted by the Trump administration. But I think there's going to be a lot of reckoning to happen. And I hope that, you know, Pam Bondi, Stephen Miller, you know, all these folks in this administration will be held accountable with some type of tribunal that will we hold them accountable for violating human rights and civil rights and civil liberties in this nation. It's a great idea for Merrick Holland. We'll pass that on. I don't know. I think you should apply. I mean, you know, you've been targeted by the government. I think I think you qualify. Isn't that, isn't that all? It was the period of 2020 to 2020 to 24. It was 2023. I think, yeah, you are the wrong color. Operations for whites. Get glory in there. Get glory in there and apply. But it seems like, you know, when you attack the government and you're white, you get rewarded. But, you know, as somebody, my colleagues now are up in arms about me burning the Confederate flag and calling me an insurrectionist. So if you, you know, I think it's telling as well that they're more concerned

with the burning of a Confederate flag than they are about the burning down over democracy. I think that shows is what they really care about and that these are neo-confederates and we cannot, you know, that that is not alarm is that that's not a far jump. It's the reality if you study history and you study this time of deconstruction that we're in there, just following the same playbook as the competitors when they retook control of the South after reconstruction. And it's the same. If we don't act, it's going to be the same end of enacting this white power structure. But I want to be clear, too, and doing this, they're talking in black and brown communities, but who's going to be heard or not just black and brown people, but as our poor white rule,

friends and fellow Tennesseans and fellow Southerners who, you know, their only grocery store as Dollar General, they're defunding their public schools. They're making it so that you can't get your prescriptions if you want to afford your groceries. I mean, these are the same folks. At the same time, he's pushing out the slush fund. He's saying we can't help people who are struggling from the tariffs, the farmers that he's enacted, who are struggling from rising input and output costs. I said when I had committee, farmers have been screwed over the most, you know, by this administration. And so I just want to be clear that he's going after black and brown people, but all of us

will get hurt in the end. What do you hear from the farmers down there? Have you heard from any Trump supporting farmers who are pissed? Yeah. Well, I was just out at the Supreme Court within a very unusual coalition of maha moms and farmers because they feel betrayed by Trump where he's selling out to the pesticide corporations. there's a bill in Congress and also a lawsuit at the Supreme Court about giving immunity to pesticide corporations who are making our farmers and our community sick and the Trump administration

siding with these foreign pesticide corporations like Bayer and Monsanto at the expense of Maha and all these people who had all this trust and belief in him. So I'm seeing people who feel buyers remorse. I'm talking to them, you know, as well as the farmers who are, we lost 400 farms in Tennessee last year, 400 family farms because of the rising cost and clients. the climate crisis, but also because of the tariff wars where our soybean farmers had so many contracts with USAID and also had contracts and trade agreements with China and all these other countries that are now been eliminated. And so Trump is an anti-farmor president. He's somebody who's destroying agriculture, particularly small family farms. And you're hearing that type of remorse. And I think it's important for us to not go to these communities and say, well, we told you so, but to say, welcome to this coalition. We want to build together because now it's an opportunity and an opening to organize, not an opportunity. to be, you know, we were right, you were wrong, but to say, you know, we're learning together,

and this administration is harmful to all of us. And we have to be clear that this is a administration that serves white supremacists and in corporate sellouts, but does not serve the people, whether you live in an urban or rural community. Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, if this isn't a moment for reaching out to them and winning allies, I don't know what it is with all the way the administration's been hiring them. I wanted to just play for you. One thing that the vice president was saying about the slush fund on Tuesday. afternoon and get your reaction to that. One of the interesting things about the American media is there is a fascination.

If you go to any American law school, there are these, you know, prisoner rights clinic. There are people who objectively committed heinous crimes, but the American media and the American Legal Academy has decided that even though they committed bad crimes, their sentence was disproportionate, they were mistreated in some way. You know who never, ever gets an ounce of sympathy when it comes to that disproportionate sentencing is people who voted for Donald Trump and participated in the January 6th protest. No sympathy for the January 6 rioters. Too much sympathy for other people who have gone to prison and done what they could to pay back their debt to society, et cetera.

He didn't mention the races, but I think we have a mental image of who he's talking about. Yeah. I mean, I wonder what would have happened if JD Vance would have stayed in that chamber. on January 6 and wasn't escorted out. You know, you see pictures of Republicans, lawmakers cowering because they knew that these people were a threat to their safety. I mean, why did they hang a gallows outside the Capitol? It wasn't as a, you know, welcome at. It was, it was be clear to be used for violence. And so I think J.D. Vance, again, represents somebody who he doesn't even recognize anymore. Because if you studied the J.D. Vance before he was vice president

and the J.D. Vans now, it's completely two different people. And so I think he's, he's having a soul crisis right now. There's a hole down the middle of his soul. He doesn't even know who he is. But it's clear that there's sympathy. You know, we have two systems of justice in this country. If you're white and an insurrectionist, you get grace and sympathy. And then if you're black or a person of color, you get what we're seeing here in Tennessee tomorrow on execution, a man who even, you know, clergy and Kim Kardashian are calling for the governor to stop his execution.

He's going to be executed here tomorrow in Tennessee. No grace, no sympathy, no, you know, even though he has, you know, mental issues and things like that. And so it's just so clear who this administration serves. I mean, J.D. Vance is somebody who's auditioning to be, I guess, the inheritor of this MAGA movement, which we know is never going to happen, no matter how many boots he licks. That's not going to happen, JD. And so just might as well have a little bit of integrity and ask the former vice president, you know, what that looks like. But I think it's very clear what trajectory we were on. And I just want to say this on the record that we should be cognizant because what they're doing this kind of dog whistle for, this calling response, is going to create issues of violence that will arise around the election. time as we go forward because they're giving people a license to commit this behavior and to be excused for it. I think we should be terrified of what that will mean going forward because if people feel like they can commit something like January 6 and be rewarded, what does that mean for other

people who will be inspired to commit similar acts of violence against our communities and against our democracy? That's such an important point because it's a threat forward, not just back. I mean, it's outrageous and enraging that they would pay off these people and that like my tax dollars, the harder and tax dollars of people who go out there and work for a living, work harder than me in a podcast, or paying, like, a percentage of their paycheck to these people that's storm the capital. That's outrageous. But like your point you're making with the message that it sends going forward is pretty alarming. I noticed recently you did something that I'm wishing more and more Dems are doing, particularly in this moment. I think in the same way that it's kind of a good time to reach out to rural communities. I think it's a good time to reach out to Trump supporters in general, like he has betrayed them in a lot of ways. And, They might not be getting that information. They get a little back and forth with Sean Hannity that was going around social media. It was pretty funny. Talk about that.

Why are you doing that? Why are you going on Hannity? Like, what's the goal? What's the opportunity? Yeah. I mean, I think we have to meet them where they are and speak to them in a language they understand. Sean Hannity loves to bring on Democrats who we can beat down on and perpetuate these lies. If you're on his show, one thing I noticed is he turns his mic up 10 cranks higher than yours.

So you have to even speak up so loud to even be heard. because he just spends a time talking over you because he knows that he doesn't have the truth, so he has to yell. And so I went on Fox because I thought it was important to speak directly to the people being screwed over. You know, I talked to people, how this man is being paid $45 million a year to create fear, to make them fearful of their immigrant neighbors instead of recognizing the threat from his friends, you know, in the White House. He went through a list of all the crimes that immigrants created.

He was like, assault, sexual assault against children. I was like, you know, I said, Sean, are you going through Trump's crimes? Are you going through? Whose crimes are you going through? You know, because we want to make clear that this is a, this is not a law and order in administration. These are the biggest criminals in our nation who are now been empowered to be, you know, in the White House.

And so, you know, Sean Hannity, again, it's just a talking mouthpiece who gets paid so much to do so much harm to this nation. And we had to go on spaces like that to lift up an alternative voice and to push back and to do so unapologetically and without compromise because, you know, we're not going to change his mind. but maybe somebody on that show will hear that, you know, again, that someone like me is not their enemy, but people like him who want to make us enemies of each other are really the danger toward democracy because they want to create a country where you're fearful of your neighbor

and that you are suspicious of your neighbor, that you, if you watch Fox News, you get your, you know, fight or flight activated consistently because it's like beware of this person, this person, this person, and it's like, it's, that's, they pray on fear because that's all they have. On the close of this, I got to say it's kind of dispiriting. It's been a little, I mean, I'm a downer podcast usually, but I heard you in Nashville. You can get a room going. You can get people excited. But it's just a tough moment for that, right?

Like if you feel like the Democratic voice is being silenced and nobody has representation, if you feel like the courts are not, you know, going to be a useful vehicle for addressing ways, you know, in which we were treated unjustly, where you find in hope? Where are you finding the energy for it? I mean, you could just kind of, you can move out to, you know, I don't know, you could get, you can find yourself a little spot on a farm or something and kind of hang out and vibe out, check out from society. Live your life, you know, smoke the hookah, whatever, brings you joy, going on hikes. I mean, I think what gives us hope right now in this moment is, is people power. I think, you know, seeing people turning out people, you know, when I was just in Montgomery, I saw grandmothers who had been there 60 years ago, but I also saw a new generation of voices.

I saw people who are black, white, Latino, Native American, Asian. I've been saying that even here at our capital when they pass these maps. And I think what they're going to do is create the atmosphere in which we see even more energy in our movement to get these folks out of power. You know, when the Dred Scott decision came out in the Supreme Court, you know, dehumanizing black folks and saying that there's no rights that black people have that white people have to follow, Frederick Douglass said, you know, let this decision not disparate us or dishonest us, but let it emboldened and inflame our movement. I think this is the same opportunity. You know, in the South, we have a saying that a dying meal kicks the hardest. And this meal of white supremacist terror is dying, which is why they're, you know, this is a death rattle. You know, this is the dying breath at the Confederacy.

Maga is just a new manifestation of the Confederacy. And we defeated them before and we can do it again. But it's going to require long-term organizing, long-term infrastructure building and recognizing that's not going to be like a microwave instantaneous shift. But we're seeing it. I mean, if Trump was confident in his power, he would not have to cheat to rig maps. He knows that he can't win fairly. And so I think the hope is, again, that this is a very fragile administration and regime. and that if we continue pushing, the way to cut down the trees, you got to keep sawing in the

same place. We got to keep sawing in the same place. I think we can take this tree down and we can take down this new Confederacy. And so that's where my hope is. And I just think we have to have practices of care. So, you know, like music, being with community. And a lot of this online's important. I love, you know, I love podcast. I love being here with you virtually. But there's nothing that will give you more hope than being in a room with people in person, being out in the streets in person with people. That's the most important thing is to show up. in person because this online stuff, if you go on X, if you go on any of these apps, TikTok, I mean, they're spending money to make you feel hopeless. You know, that's their strategy.

And you see things that are disparating. You see people fighting each other. You see racist people, you know, like the man here in Nashville who's calling people the N-word, who's now in court. I mean, that's what, that's all my timeline was. And I'm like, this is not the America, I believe in. But when I went out into the streets, that's where I found hope. And so I think we have to just show up together and build together in person. And I think that we will outlast these fascists and these confederates. And I look forward to, you know, seeing you and celebrating on the other side of this brother. And to some type of community in which we're not constantly in confusion and chaos,

but we can build it and really think about not just us, but I know you have children about the next generation. That's really why we're doing this. It's not about us in this time, but it's for those who are coming up after us. Amen, man. I appreciate that. Get out of your house, people, you know? Get off this thing for a little bit because it is.

It is a downer. All right, man. Well, if there are things we can do and elevate here, you just don't hesitate. All right, to let me know. If you find yourself down in Louisiana, you let me know. All right, man. Appreciate you, brother. All right, thanks so much to Justin Jones.

Appreciate that guy. We have our live show in San Diego tonight. So on tomorrow's show, you'll get a little bit of fresh potting and a bonus segment from San Diego. I don't know. Whatever's the most fun part. We'll let you guys have on the podcast tomorrow. And then we'll have podcasts regularly scheduled on Friday.

So appreciate you all very much. See you tomorrow. Peace. The Borg podcast is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper, Associate producer Ansela Skipper, and with video editing by Katie Lutz, and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.