The Bulwark Podcast - Kamala Harris: This Is Our Country

Episode Date: November 19, 2025

Before a live audience in Nashville Tuesday, the former MVP served up some stirring words about fighting back against what is happening under Trump. But Harris also threw punches— against the corrupt and callous president who's trying to gaslight Americans about Epstein, and the tech titans who are bending the knee to a tyrant. Also noteworthy: Both MTG and Mamdani come in for some praise. Plus, the power of a consumer boycott, the challenges of being No. 2 on the job, and the still stinging emotions around her 107-day campaign. Former Vice President Kamala Harris joins Tim Miller. show notes "107 Days," by former VP Kamala Harris TAKE THE SURVEY Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan when you go to joindeleteme.com/BULWARK and use promo code BULWARK at checkout.

Hello, welcome to the Bullwark podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We have a different one for you today. I had the honor of being asked to interview former Vice President Kamala Harris at her book tour stop in Nashville last night, Tuesday night. And it was such a cool experience for me. I've got to say, being inside the Riemann. I guess I've seen a show there. My friends have seen so many shows. I've streamed so many. Such this historic venue. So many of my favorites have played there. It's beautiful inside. And so to be able to interview Kamala Harris there was really special. Pat crowd, I mean, obviously there's just still this desire and fervor for, what would you call it, you know, rationality, resistance out there. I mean, the line was just wrapped around the block for this event. Over 2,000 people showed up. They're rowdy.

And, you know, I think we had a good conversation. the book is a little bit of a different kind of book 107 days she goes more into kind of the inner workings of the campaign than you usually get from the candidate book you know i think that and she says this i think that she felt like she really wanted her voice to be in the historical perspective of this of this campaign because a lot of the stuff was out of her hands and she gets picked to be VP i ask her about this she gets you know sideline a little bit and said that the Biden White House, and then this campaign is thrust upon her. One more thing before we get into the interview. One thing that's different about this show is that I just, I give you my candid thoughts about everybody, and that informs the interview. And I think anybody who listened to this know that candidly, to the extent that there are, is a back and forth, he said, she said, between the Biden campaign team and the

Biden White House team and the vice president's team, I'm extremely sympathetic to the vice president in a world where we started from scratch, which you've ended up, the nominee, which you've been the best nominee, my favorite choice. I don't know. Probably not. I think we can just be honest about that. But she ran, I think, a pretty good campaign given the horrible situation she was put into. And I don't think that she was set up for success. It's one thing I really try to ask her about because I think that's important. We also do news of the day. We also give her a chance to let her rip about Donald Trump. And we talk about the future of the Democratic Party.

I feel blessed to have had the opportunity. So I hope you guys enjoy it. We'll be back to our kind of quasi-normal schedule. Now, I'll be taping early because I'm going from one VP to another. I'm going from interviewing Vice President Harris to attending Vice President Cheney's funeral in D.C. So we'll be taping a little early tomorrow, and then I'll be in New York on Friday. And then we'll be back in my Pinto Bean studio on Monday. So stick around for my interview with Kamala Harris.

Hope you enjoy it as much as I did. All right, everybody, y'all ready? The former vice president of the United States, Kamala Harris. Tennessee! Hey, Tim. Hey, Kamala. Hey, I'm Adam Vice President. Oh, are you?

Welcome to the South. It's good to be back. Rime and auditorium, pretty great. I know. I want to talk about the book, obviously, 107 days, but it was a crazy day in Washington. Can we talk about that just a little bit first? Do you mind? Sure.

I mean, I've been hanging out in Nashville. It's a good place to be these days. So the Saudi Crown Prince NBS was in the Oval Office today. A reporter asked him and President Trump about James Koshoggi. the journalist that had been murdered by MBS with a bone saw. And our president berated that reporter. And then he said of Khashoggi that this guy was extremely controversial. A lot of people didn't like that gentleman and then closed where things happen.

I wonder what you make of that. So let's level set. We're talking about an American journalist who was murdered. We're talking about an American journalist. journalist who was murdered and we are talking about the American intelligence community determined he was murdered and today we're talking about an American president who chooses to overlook the significance and seriousness of that because as I said on the debate stage one he will be motivated in so many ways and certainly on foreign policy

by flattery and favor. And remember, and I talked about this, we all knew it, this is not the first time he has bypassed America's intelligence community and the significance of what it says and advises for the sake of his personal gain and benefit. It's outrageous and it is dangerous to our national security to have a president of the United States who does not appreciate the American intelligence community,

making decisions about what the American people should know and the basis of a president's decisions. And in this case, direct personal gain, you know, the MBS is invested in his family, and his son-in-law, invested in his business. I know what I say. I know why. There isn't really a parallel to this in American history.

Like the business entanglements that he has, with these foreign dictators and their Sharia law countries and now they get to kill our journalists, come to the White House and the president sides with them over the free press. It's crazy.

I mean, Tim, we know what it is. It is not only crazy, it is corrupt, it is callous and incompetent all at the same time. Yeah. Well, good. I was fired up about that one today.

I'm glad we're on the same page. Oh, you know, we're here for some truth talk. Here's another thing that happened today. The House passed a resolution to release the Epstein files after quite a fight. And I'm interested in your take on that broadly, but there's one person in particular, I'm curious what your thoughts are on. A surprising ally. There's so many in this story. Okay, who's the one today?

Who's the one you're interested? I was thinking about Marjorie Taylor Green. Not a traditional friend of ours, but she was having a press conference today, and I got to say, well, I'll just read it to you. Trump called me a traitor for standing with these women and refusing to take my name off the discharge petition. Let me tell you what a traitor is.

A traitor is an American that serves foreign countries and themselves. A patriot is an American that serves the country. United States and Americans like the women standing behind me, that was Marjorie Taylor Green today. Good for her. What do you think, how do we process that given her past? Well, let me start with the fact that her words are, her words are accurate. One must match up their words with their deeds.

But her words are accurate and good for her for speaking those words. My understanding is she was with a collection, a group of survivors of sexual assault. And as many of you know, I started my career as a courtroom prosecutor prosecuting those kinds of cases. So standing up with those women to speak about their right. to ensure that justice be served, that there be accountability, that those women be given dignity in the process, is an admirable thing to do.

And I do hope that, you know, we can figure out a way, to your point of your confusion on all this, to reconcile her past statements and deeds with what she is saying now. But I applaud what she said today. What do you think, how do Democrats think about that, though? I don't, you know, because, look, some level, if Democrats are ever going to win again, I mean, you're not just going to need

people like me that were Republicans 100 years ago, right? You're going to need people that voted for him a third time after the insurrection, people that we have issues with. And Marjorie Taylor-Green is very representative of that. And so you see someone like that speaking truth on this issue. How do you think about that as from a political standpoint? I don't think anyone should ever be criticized when wisdom finally arrives. Amen. Good enough. I do notice we're getting the book.

I had to write this down. This is just a Marjorie-Teller-Green Love Fest here. Did you guys know you were signing up for that? Because you mentioned in the book that when Laura Lumer, the Trump acolyte that's like randomly firing people in the government now, did a racist joke, not a joke, I made a racist tweet about what the White House would smell like if you got in there. Marjorie Taylor Green shot back at her.

And you wrote in the book about this. She said, if you can offend Marjorie Taylor Green, you're really at the deep end of the hate pool. But, you know, I guess allies can come in strange faces sometimes. Like I said, I applaud what she said today, and let's see what happens next. Do you have hope on the Epstein files? stuff? Is there, are you... Listen, here's how I feel about the Epstein Files. I think it is, again, just

another, the current president's statements most recently about this are another example of him attempting to gaslight the American people. And I say that because all of a sudden he's saying he'll wait to see what Congress does. Since when?

All of a sudden, now he's waiting for Congress to greenlight. he will do or wants to do? Come on. So, release the files. Release the files. He is the President of the United States. He is the head of the executive branch. He has taken unilateral action without concern about the three co-equal branches of government on almost everything he has done. So release the files. on this issue and other issues do you look back at the DOJ you know during the Biden-Harris administration and think man I wish that we should have done more on this or that I mean there

wasn't a lot of America Garland doesn't even show up in the book actually I don't believe I do believe that we have to fight fire with fire but but maintaining all the while our principles and what we know to be ethically correct. And that includes the fact that, and I say this, as a former Attorney General, I ran the second largest Department of Justice in the United States, second only to the United States Department of Justice when I was California Attorney General for two terms. And there is a reason that our democracy has relied on the fact that these will be independent branches of our government, the judicial branch from the executive and legislative. And a president of the United States should not be interfering with that other branch.

And in particular, as we have seen, and the evidence is front and center, that, again, we predicted it, that he was going to weaponize the Department of Justice against his political enemies. And we would never, and nor should we ever consider taking that approach. It is a corruption of our whole ideal about the importance of rule of law and the concept of justice. Delete Me makes it easy, quick, and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches

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got a bunch of people, you know, who don't really like all my tweets. I know that's surprising to you because my tweets are fucking tens, all of them. Everyone is a perfect 10. and yet, you know, you can't please everybody. And so sometimes they want to do shit to me, like troll me or whatever.

And the nefarious ones that sit in their basement and have nothing better to do, you know, go to look for my personal data online. And so I love having Delete Me around to make their life as hard as possible. Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me. Now at a special discount for our listeners, get 20% off your DeleteMe plan. when you go to join delete me.com slash bulwark and use promo code bulwark at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to join delete me.com slash bulwark

and enter code bulwark at checkout. That's join delete me.com slash bulwark code bulwark. I want to get to the book. So sure the crowd is right now that we're not doing screaming for the rule of law and the concept of justice right now. There's some in the party that have this desire for like, I think, street justice, maybe, alley justice. right now, and I get that.

Well, look, I mean, we cannot subvert rule of law. At the same time, we need to be able to throw a punch. Yep. I said that to get it, because I do want to, obviously, the book is about these under seven days,

and it's a little traumatic for all of us. I mean, not to make this about me. I think this is, I think this is probably true for everybody in here. How are you feeling? I don't. Thank you. I just wanted you to win so fucking bad.

But like, here's the thing with that, right? Like, that want, so then you're reading all this and you wanted it and these emotions come up and for a lot of people. And I, look, I think about, I'm thinking about after the election when I called my husband the next day and I was like, how's our daughter doing? And he said, she asked me why I took the sign down. And so I had to tell her. And I just, you know, and so we think about the weight of all that. And I think that people process it differently and some people get pissed and some people get sad. We want to check out.

And so, like, before we get into all the details, because some of those emotions might come out, I just wonder, like, how do you deal with, like, the weight of all of us that was on you? Do you think about it? Maybe you don't think about it. No, I mean, that, and you're, I write about it in the book. We had 107 days, and I was acutely aware of the stakes.

And at the end of every day, each of those hundred and seven days, my prayer included asking God that I, and prayed that I did everything that day I could possibly do. I knew how high the stakes were. And one of the, actually, the most difficult chapter that I wrote in the book was about election night. And I will tell you when I learned of the result of the election that, night, I felt an emotion I have not felt since my mother died. I was grieving. And grieving for a while.

And I was grieving on behalf of the people that I knew would be harmed. I knew what was going to happen. You know, I predicted just about everything except the capitulation. I didn't predict that. But I knew what it was going to mean, Tim. I couldn't, I write about it when I, I couldn't, I was so inarticulate. I couldn't say anything except my God, my God, my God, my God, my God, when I learned the results. And, you know, and I, we were there in D.C. because then, of course, the election happened.

And then as vice president of the United States and president of the Senate, it was my constitutional duty to certify the election. and I would be, if I, darned, if I wasn't going to fulfill my constitutional duty with dignity and purpose, and that was January 6th, and some people don't know that four years before on January 6th, well, of course you know that I was vice president-elect that day, but I also I was serving on the Senate Intelligence Committee, so I was still a senator and vice president-elect. So that day, four years before on January 6th, I went to my committee meeting,

and then after that I went to the DNC offices to make calls to thank people. And I was sitting in the DNC offices when Secret Service rushed in and said, you have to leave right now. because there was an active pipe bomb within feet of where I sat and then they took me to a secret undisclosed location

which was my apartment I don't live there anymore I can tell you now and I sat there watching and then having calls with my sent me colleagues who were all basically in a bunker while it was happening. And then well past midnight, I went back to the Senate when Mike Pence did his duty to certify the election. So I was there on January 6th to certify the election in 2024, understanding that this otherwise kind of almost ceremonial job of a vice president became one of the most important acts of one of the highest

officials in our country, around our belief in the integrity of our democracy and our Constitution. So I was there for that. We then, I write about it. Then during that period of time, my home state of California, and where I live in Southern California, was aflame with the wildfires. And then we learned that we had to evacuate our house while I was in D.C. And so our kids, you know, went and helped it, but we were there in D.C.

And we were watching it on the TV. And I kid you not, the Chiron, because we got tapped into the local news, the Chiron said, fire approaching Kamala Harris's house. So anyway, all of this was happening. And then the inauguration. And then thankfully, well, the inauguration was January 20th. the lift of the our house is fine

and the lift of the evacuation was on January 19th so not until the day before we were supposed to leave D.C. Did we know if we'd have a house to go back to? Oh my God. This is a very long way of saying it has taken me a long time to process because there was so much going on

but the emotions have been the full range of the emotions I think many of us have felt and I think it is important to go through and process one's grief, their anger, sadness. And now, and take a rest, and that includes taking a minute even now, so that we can regain our sense of our purpose, which is to fight, and to understand that our fight is for something.

It is for something. It is not against. It is for something. something. And we cannot in this moment in time afford to be with our head, our covers over our head saying, wake me up when it's over. That's not an option. That's not an option. Hey, y'all, we want to hear from you. What do you like of our offerings? And besides me, of course, how do you watch or listen? Where are you tuning in from? In the show notes, you'll find a link to an audience survey we're conducting to help us get a better sense of who you are and

get your feedback on our shows. We're cooking up some great plans for 2026, and this feedback is going to be invaluable. So please grab the link in the show notes. Thanks, advanced, for your feedback. And it's okay if you like somebody better than me. You can tell us. I want to go back in time in a second, but since you left it right there about how the fight is for something, I wonder how you would describe that and describe what it is that we're fighting for right now because one thing I look back on in like the weeks before the election that made me a little nervous was I had James Carville on and I was asking him I was like I know what was on your white board for Clinton I'm not sure what it is right now like what is on our whiteboard like how

how would you define that like both either for your campaign or like going forward right now like what is it yeah you know I was talking with someone I was doing an interview earlier and and I was asked about you know what is the vision for the Democratic Party what we stand for what does what is the future and here's how I feel about it we are we have to and we must and we will fight for affordable health care we fight for affordable child care the extension of the child tax credit we fight against price gouging and going after corporate landlords who are buying up properties and jacking up rents We fight for the dignity of working people.

We fight so that it is not just about getting by, but getting ahead. These are the things that Democrats have to stand for and fight for, and we have to be clear that, you know, I think one of the pieces that was interesting about the shutdown that helped to at least emphasize one of these points was that that was the issue that Democrats were fighting for was affordable health care, and made it very clear

and that is a huge distinction between where we are as a party and where this current Republican Party is. But these are the things that we stand for. These are the things we fight for. We fight for future generations. Like I said, we fight for the future. We care about the children

of America. In the course of their life from the time that they need preschool and we need to have pre-K through funding public schools and paying public school teachers. Yeah, you know, it's interesting here at the beginning of that answer because there's a big kind of conversation happening out there right now about like what the Democratic Party is for and people in different factions of different views and like the, as a former Republican,

these aren't my people, but I'm interested in what they have to say. They're like the left faction, the Bernie faction, I think their critique of the party, and maybe the last administration even, or the campaign would be there wasn't enough focus going after, you know, the corporate raiders or the billionaires or the oligarchs, right, and that the party really should be centering working people and going after those elites. And if they did that, they'd be more successful. Like, hearing your answer, you sounded a little bit like, you talked a little bit like that. What do you say of that critique, that that was something that's maybe been missing from the Democratic Party and the establishment? I think that, look, when you talk about it in terms of

what we, you look at the track record of what we have fought for, we have fought for things like the extension of the child tax credit. We have fought against what has been happening with this administration in terms of giving tax breaks for the richest people. We say that the money that is going to now a multi-trillion dollar deficit because of tax breaks for the richest people should be invested in public health care, public education, and public safety. That's what we stand for. We have not abandoned those priorities. And listen, our party has room for these differing opinions, but there are fundamental issues that the Democrats stand for, which includes going against corporate greed, going against

anyone who is breaking the law at the expense of working people. Yeah. So, I mean, do you think that's like something that Democrats need to be doing more and more now? Do you think that's a fair critique, I guess, of the party in the past that it had been to, I don't know, in league with the corporate establishment or anything? I don't think that that's the case.

I don't think that's the case when you look at what have we have fought for that actually there's been some opposition from you could see that right now in terms of who's bending the knee at the foot of a tyrant yeah and who has been capitulating and just look at the behaviors right now to ask the question where are they going and why are they going there and did they give the same kind of deference to democrats when they were running they why didn't they you know why didn't tim cook come to the vice president office and give you a trophy. I don't understand

why these guys are doing that. They're so scared that Donald Trump's going to tariff them that they have to go give him a trophy and fake awards and let's focus. In all seriousness,

what this administration is doing in terms of yielding to corporate interest on the backs of working people is almost criminal. And I go back to just days ago, practically, during the shutdown, and what they did in terms of SNAP benefits, we're talking about hungry children in America, hungry children in America. their willingness to deny benefits so that parents could feed their hungry children, so that parents were missing meals to ensure that their children would eat. So in all seriousness, if we're talking about this for the sake of the contrast, the contrast is

clear. Who was fighting for affordable health care? Who was fighting so that premiums wouldn't be jacked up? Who was fighting for benefits for children to be able to eat on a daily basis and not have to skip a meal? The contrast is clear. And so, you know, I think I say that to say, let's, I know the punditry likes to engage in the circular firing squad around what Democrats are saying about each of, other. But right now, I think there is a real clear contrast in terms of where Democrats in elected office stand versus where the Republican Party is standing on fundamental issues

that impact people in America. And that's where our focus should be. That's why this special election here in two weeks matters. That's why the midterms are going to matter. And we We can engage in a more on-depth conversation about the other stuff. Yeah, I do wonder, because who cares about the Twitter wars? I mean, I engage in them sometimes, but we don't have to talk about that right now. That's, you know, we all have vices. I do wonder, though, listen to you say that, like, I agree with, the contrast couldn't be clearer. And yet, the Republicans did better last time with working-class people than they had back when it was Mitt Romney or John McCain

or, you know, they've done, they did better than they've had in a long time. And so I just, what do you think is the answer of what the disconnect is there? Like, was the message not getting through? Was it a cultural, was it not economic issues? Was it a cultural issues? Like, what's your theory of why the Democrats lost a little ground with working class voters? Well, I think there's been over a quite a lengthy period of time, probably a decade. We've been seeing a decline.

Yeah. If we're talking about the 107 days, well, for example, one of the issues that I care deeply about and it's born out of a personal experience, but it's a personal experience for so many of us, is the affordability of family caregiving, in particular around the sandwich generation, for example, those who are raising their young children while taking care of their elder relatives. And my proposal, with all the work, that was done to know that it could, it was doable was that Medicare would cover home health care for those families so that people wouldn't go bankrupt trying to take care of their family or have to go bankrupt because they would have to leave their job to care for family. This was an issue that had a lot of traction with voters once they heard about it. Part of the challenge in those 107 days, you know, marketing. people say you have to hear something three times before you actually absorb it. And it took time.

But the momentum was there. I have talked candidly about the fact that among my reflections, I think that if we had done it differently, it would have been better, which is to order our priorities around doing the infrastructure bill and the Chips Act, good work. But doing that after we first did the family piece that was about extension of the child tax credit, paid family leave, affordable childcare. And that's why my campaign was focused on those issues, because those are immediate issues

that are affecting people across the board. Going back to the 107 days, kind of going back before the 107 days, but you talked about this, one of the reason it was only 107 days is because you are the VEP. And that's such a weird job. I mean, we've all watched the show, right?

You have this, like, contrast between you're doing this super consequential work, right? You're talking to Angela Merkel, and you're dealing with all these very serious issues. And yet at the same time, you're also kind of at the mercy of, like, random 20-something staffers that work for the president and at the White House, and that there can be, like, a tension between those two things. And you talk about that a little bit in the book, and I'm just wondering if you feel like you are able to demonstrate the serious consequential part of the work when you're a VP in a way that prepared you for a campaign and set you up for a campaign to be successful?

So it's the first time I've been number two in a job. Including your marriage. But it is vice president, not president. And so that is the job. but the job included the fact that I have as Vice President had the experience of I've met with over 150 world leaders presidents prime ministers chancellors and kings many multiple times and developed relationships relationships that impacted decisions that we made as a nation and those partner our allied nations not all of it got covered sadly but the work still happened and it had

impact in meeting. The work of vice president is the work of supporting the president's agenda. And sometimes we agreed. Sometimes we disagreed. I talk about that candidly in the book. But at the same time, I also, some people have asked me, well, why didn't you say something when you were vice president when you disagreed with the president? So thanks for handling that. Well, I beat you to the punch. And as I write, and I believe, I think for the sake of the integrity of a relationship between a president and vice president, there has to be some confidence in those conversations, including when there are disagreements. Because we want that the president of the United States, whoever she may be.

I couldn't help myself. we want that the president will have the ability to have candid conversations with at least someone in a safe space to actually be able to air their thoughts and get feedback but that is the nature of the position so I'm just back to those emotions I mentioned earlier here's the anger part that's coming up in me and it's and I just have to do this

just have to ask this part, because to me, this is where I get frustrated with former President Biden, who have nothing but respect for. But this was so consequential of an election, and the stakes were so high. And I appreciate, and you started the book with an epigraph as Kendrick Lamar about loyalty. I appreciate that you wanted to have loyalty. I really do. But, like, his loyalty, that's a two-way street, right? And I feel like it was incumbent upon him to say to you, what did he call you, kid, Kamala, Veep, whatever he called you, whatever he called you, to say to you, you go do what you need to do. If you need to throw me under the bus on a few things, you go do that because we got to beat this motherfucker. And instead, he did the opposite

of that. And I don't know, you see a sense in the book and hearing from you, like, that you felt trapped and like the stakes were too high for that like why why couldn't we have dealt with that during the 107 days I think there are many variables that were at play in the outcome of the election I do want to emphasize a couple of points that I think we should consider when we think about what happened on election day and one of them includes the fact that that one-third of the electorate voted for the current president. One-third voted for us, and one-third did not vote. Two-thirds of the electorate did not vote

for what's happening right now. And I think that's important to remember. But the work we have to do is the Democratic Party should really emphasize why did that one-third not vote and focus on that. In terms of the decision that the president made to stay in the race, I talk about that in the book. And my reflections on whether it was grace or recklessness, even on my part, to not talk him out of staying in the race.

Yeah. I do talk about that. You do. And we needed more time, Tim. There's no question. We needed more time. It was an unprecedented election in so many ways, including just think about it this way. had a president of the United States running for re-election who decided three and a half months before the election not to run. The sitting vice president then steps in, running against the former president of the United States who have been running for 10 years with 107 days to go. Also, what should be noted is that it was the closest presidential election in the 21st century. And one of the reasons that I wrote the book

is history will write about and talk about those 107 days, which are, after all, now part of America's history. And it was very important to me that as history writes about those 107 days, that my voice will be present in the way that story is told. Yeah. I hear all that. I just, I think that that one third that didn't vote, a lot of them were unhappy with what was happening, right? And like the ability to be able to get a little distance from that and demonstrate who you were was important. And anyway, you talk about it in the book, but I thought you were limited in being able to do that. And I think that looking back, when I look back on it, a lot of stuff was out of your hands. Like that stuff was in the hands of President Biden and you. And it was like, we felt trapped. We felt trapped by this loyalty, I guess.

You know, I just have to be very candid for the sake of my own well-being insanity. That's not our own focus. Okay, great. I'm just not, like, there's too much happening right now and work that we can do right now for the future. Amen. But you wrote, I mean, you wrote the book about the campaign, right?

I mean, it could have, you know, because we had to know what happened, right? We had to understand. And so it's important, like, accepting and seeing what happened is an important, you know, acknowledging the truth of what happened is important to go forward and to be successful. You're right. I'm asking in that spirit. Should, could he and a variety of other people made different decisions?

Yes. No question about it. Could it have had an impact on the outcome? Perhaps. But in terms of how I think about, how I suggest, in fact, that we should reflect on those 107 days in that campaign, there are additional points that I choose to emphasize, including, for example, something that I'm working on now, having been the subject of a myriad of attacks that were fueled by mis and disinformation.

one of the biggest challenges that we're facing as a democracy and a society right now is missing disinformation. In fact, there are plenty of people here I know who have neighbors, friends, relatives who voted differently than us in the election. And here's the thing that I would challenge us about

because I've been thinking a lot about this, Tim, which is the assumptions that we are bringing to our thoughts about the opinions of people who voted differently. One of the assumptions being that we're working with the same information. I think we have to really think about that. Are we working with the same information? Now, I purposely say information and not facts because two plus two is four every day of the week.

but there is so much misinformation that also has been facilitated by technology and social media. There are many benefits to it, but this is one of the drawbacks. And if we are to think about where we are now in terms of the divisions between the American people, if we are to think about the pain that I know we all experience around the issue of trust and trust, yes, in our institutions and government, but also increasingly, what pains me is that the amount of distrust that the American people have for each other. And I'm not talking about, am I, can I, you know, trust you enough that I can keep my door

unlocked? I'm talking about, can I trust that you are not a threat to my very existence? Right? Yeah. I wonder, then, looking forward in all that, because I'm sorry to be Rain Cloud right now, guys, I promise I have some fun stuff here before it ends. I see things getting worse, not better, kind of on that front with AI. And I'm wondering what you think, like, would be a positive vision or agenda item for Democrats speaking about this challenge, both of this information and AI, about how, you know, not being against things that are creating jobs or things that could save people and AI could be wonderful in the medical space.

but creating rules and regulations that prevent this problem from, you know, be exacerbating. In all candor, I don't know if the solutions are going to come from Congress. I fear, well, no, I just fear that, and I've seen it, I mean, I've worked on these issues. Just as a general matter, they're very smart and good people. who are working hard, but I fear that because of the way that it is constructed, it's just too slow and almost bureaucratic within a legislative body that by the time they actually agree to anything and pass it, it's going to be obsolete. And so there is that piece.

Then the question becomes, well, then where are the rules going to come from if not Congress? and then one might say, well, will the industry itself impose standards upon itself? And of course, the answer is no. So then one must ask, well, then what to do, where and how could it possibly be corrected in any way that just puts reasonable guardrails on safety? I say, especially having been a former attorney general, I believe that the power base on this issue is with the people as the consumer, and that consumers have an incredible amount of power to place demands on the market and on the business model. But the challenge for anyone in any role of leadership elected or not is to ensure that

the public and the consumer has sufficient information to know how it works and what you have a right to demand. The place where I see great progress on this happening is with parents around safety standards as it relates to their children. And what we have seen around a movement among parents, anyone parenting a child, to say as it relates to TikTok, as it relates to any social media gaming, to put the pressure on the industry to put guardrails there. We should watch how parents are doing this. And think about the broader consumer on the various other areas of impact and know that consumers have incredible power. You start a boycott, I'm telling you, people will pay attention. I'm not saying

who to boycott. I'm just saying we know that that is an example of what consumers can do. There's no boycott targets coming to mind right now? I'm not. I'm just saying The Trump Hotel, maybe. It's a safe start. Yes, and there is all of that. Actually, I just muttered Home Depot under my breath. What do you make about these masked ice thugs, though, real quick? Which one?

The masked ice thugs and what they're doing. Listen, I... First of all, the fear. that is rampant in the immigrant community is abhorrent. You know, in California where I live, I mean, the Catholic Church has excused parishioners from attending Mass in person because of the knowledge that people are so afraid to even go and worship for fear of deportation. Parents who are not sending their children to school,

not taking the child to the pediatrician visit, people who are potentially green card holders are complying with their responsibility to go to court and check in, who are being detained. And, you know, look, first of all, it should not have to be said, but I will say it. Unless you are Native American, or your ancestors were kidnapped and forced into slavery, your people are immigrants. There you go.

there you go um amen to that i want to get to y'all's questions uh here in a second before you know i was reading the book uh you talked there's one moment that came up uh from the debate which was my favorite night of the campaign i hate that the end took this from me because i had i didn't have as much fun as you i was telling people i was like the only person that had more fun than me tonight was Kamala Harris as I was out there shit-talking in the spin room. But anyway, there's one thing that happened to the debate, and you almost brought clarity to it in the book, but you wouldn't quite say what exactly it was that was on your mind. You alluded to it.

I asked your husband about this on the podcast, and we'll see what he said. One moment from the debate, ever since it happened, I've been dying to ask you about. So I want to play it, and we'll get you on the other side. Let's just listen. This former president, as president, invited them. What do you think that she was going to call him there? I'm just going to rely on the memes at this point. So there was the Sam Jackson fun from Pulp Fiction.

I'm not saying this is what she was trying to say, but there is a funny meme of her. When somebody asked her what her favorite cuss word was, she said it starts with an M. And Anne's with a, uh, and, um, it feels like it might across the mind. I just know what I got sent on my various, you know, group chats. I thought you might have inside info, though, you know, I thought maybe one time you might have known that look, like across the kitchen. Oh, I just, you know, what is this, like, spousal privilege or whatever? Okay, some of these things will just have to remain between us.

So he called spousal privilege there. the end. I love my husband. I love my husband. That's my doggie. Any additional clarity? I something speak for themselves. Any other words you want to call them before we get to the audience questions? Oh there's plenty but but but but I just say but I just before the night and And one thing I just really do want to emphasize, it is important for us to have humor. We cannot, we have to have humor.

We have to find times to sing and dance and have joy and understand the beauty of life and have hope. And we cannot normalize a thing we are seeing right now. We cannot normalize any of it. Cannot. Hell yeah. I've got a couple of questions from the audience,

and we'll just chat about them. Okay, see. We've got Julia K. Little. She says, as young Democrats, organizing in Tennessee's second congressional district, the longest held Republican district in the country, we want to inspire hope and engagement among young voters. What strategies do you think Democrats can use

to better organize in the South, especially in areas that have been gerrymandered. Julia? Julia, yeah. Julia, are you here? Where are you? What up? Stand up.

Let's see you. Stand up. There you are. All right, let's hear for Julia. Organizing. Well, first of all, thank you. Listen, let me just say, I absolutely believe that the South is going to be part of what gets us through all of this.

I really do. I really do. You know, on my book tour, I was adamant that I travel through the South. What you all are doing here in Tennessee, what you are doing, Julia, in terms of organizing. Where is Justin? Justin is here. All the justins are here. Congressman.

Right? The Tennessee Three, where's Gloria? Where's Justin Jones? Gloria is here. I'm telling you, what you all are doing. You know, the last time I came to Tennessee was when the Tennessee three where they were trying to silence them.

Remember, and I was Vice President of the United States. I came here on Air Force 2 the next day because what you are doing in terms of organizing here is a national matter and will have national impact. And so the way that you are doing it is so important because I've seen how you're doing your work. It's about literally reminding people of every age from young people from high school

through to our seniors, we have the Freedom Riders who are here. Do we know that? Right? And in particular right now, finding opportunities to bring people together to just allow them

to talk and that we really listen like just looking at the person sitting next to you and asking, how are you doing? Like, seriously, how are you doing? I'm taking us to church. Amen.

But that part of the organizing is going to be very important. Organizing in terms of our Gen Z, I love Gen Z. And I'm telling you, Gen Z, who are now, you know, statistically, Gen Z are between age 13 and 28. They are a larger population demographically than both. consumers. Gen Z were born only known the climate crisis, went through significant periods of their education during a pandemic, losing very significant parts of socialization and education.

Gen Z, if they are in high school, college, or that age, and are in an educational program are wondering whether what they are learning now will actually lead to a job for any period of time in the future. It is expected that Gen Z will have up to 10 to 12 jobs in their lifetime as compared to so many of us came out of high school college. The first job we had is where we retired. So also, Julia, I would say focus on our younger voters. Because if you look at the last elections that happened around the country, there was an incredible turnout from younger people who understand they're not going to be waiting around for the rest of us to figure it out. And there's a good organizing opportunity with that also.

Thank you. And building on the best traditions of all of the people who have laid the path for us, which is about just, you know, marching and shouting for justice, inequality, and opportunity. Yes. Thank you. You mentioned that the huge Gen Z turnout in these last elections, and we did see that in Virginia, New Jersey, too, but obviously a lot of energy around Zoran in New York.

Probably going to be a different model than in Tennessee, too, but I don't know. I just wonder what you kind of think about his campaign. He was focused on working class issues, Gaza, affordability. What did you think about Zoron's campaign? I think, you know what, he energized people, and he brought people in, and I think that is good for democracy.

And I know there are people who are, you know, I mean, somebody asked me today, are you scared of him? I'd like, no, no. Why? We have everyone from Abigail, the two governors, the two women now in New Jersey and Virginia. We have the three elections in Georgia for utilities and power. I have talked to people

I started in local government in Mississippi who are turning those seats they're all Democrats they're all Democrats representing different ideas and a different approach and I think all of it is welcome because they are speaking to the people in their communities and where they live

to be active and engaged and I think that's a good thing Justin Pearson is pumped out there. That man just can't stay in his seat. You got a bulwark podcast moderator, so you get one bulwark podcast question. I'm sorry we have to do this, guys. Here it is. It's Marita Hines.

She asked the most bulwarky question imaginable. Do you have any thoughts on the efficiency of our government? Would you rebuild what has been cut or use this moment to reinvent? and I'm going to follow up from Doge. Marita. Marita, where are you? I don't know if Marita's in here. This might have been an online question. Okay. I am certain that in the midst of all of this destruction, which obviously should not be

conflated with disruption, because it is destruction that we are witnessing, that there is going to be an incredible amount of debris. I'm certain of it. And let me also, again, in the spirit of truth talk, it may get worse before it gets better. Okay? And when the time comes that we get past this, there is going to be a lot of work to do, and some

people talk about rebuild, but I don't think of it that way, because there's some stuff that happened even before that wasn't working. And we need to be honest about that, and we cannot afford to have nostalgia about how things were to try and recreate systems that were not effective or efficient.

So that includes being clear-eyed. For example, things just take too long in our government. And we need to have a greater priority around speed. We need to have candid conversations with the people. This gets back to Julia about organizing. how do you feel your government is satisfying and meeting your needs and how would you like it to be different? Part of this moment should reinforce for us the power of the people

to make decisions when we are looking at the debris about reform and transformation and transformative opportunities that we have. I think that while we need to deal with the harm and risk, of AI, we should also see the benefits. For example, one of the biggest issues affecting so many people in our country is affordable housing. One of the issues there is supply. In addition to the other issue, which is the corporate, you know, taking over and jacking up brewers. And there are many other points. But what builders will tell you is part of the issue is it just takes

too long to get permits. Well, AI, A lot of permitting is really about, did you meet the number? It's not about something subjective. It's literally, is it this size? Is it this quantity? AI can make those decisions for us in a much faster way. So when we're thinking about how we are going to see this as a moment of in the crisis opportunity to leapfrog over where we are, we've got to be open to doing things.

differently. And I'm going to tell you, I have a lived experience that can tell you this, status quo. So people think status quo is static. It's just there. Let me tell you something. When you try and change status quo, it is quite dynamic and will fight against you every step of the way. So it's going to take us as the people who will be impacted by the work of government to make demands for people in government to have the courage to be clear-eyed about what's

been working and not and to deal with efficiency and speed and relevance for the people. Here's some Yimbi Kamala in there, a little Yimbi Kamala? Well, Yimbi, what does that mean? It means we need to build more shit. Well, we do

but I'm, you know, I know this as a devout public servant for my entire adult life that there is an incredible nobility in public service and I'm going to tell you the people who work

in these offices work around the clock doing the noble work of thinking about how they can uplift the condition and well-being of the people but there is also a lot of bureaucracy and we've got to address that and be honest about it.

You're going to have to take us to church on the very last question this is from Ashley Ashley Isley I think is that right are you here are you here Ashley over there somebody whoever brief me told me it's pronounced like the Isley brothers I don't know do you guys know

do you guys know them there we go okay this is a tough one thank you for the question Ashley Ashley works for an international humanitarian aid organization that's going through the third round of layoffs in two weeks She's incredibly lucky to have kept her job, while thousands of others have not, but she fears not being able to support her family. She fears the loss of her career, which was her life's calling. And most of all, she fears what will happen to the communities we've served in the humanitarian sector.

And so her question for you is both what has to happen in that arena, but also where somebody like her can find some hope right now. First of all, we all here. Thank you, Ashley, for the work that you do and have done. Thank you. Because even though I've never met you, I know who you are. And I know why you do what you do. You know, America's strength is based on many things. Part of our strength, you know, I was just in Toronto,

and you and I were talking about that. And it was interesting because being there as much as anything I knew was actually almost a diplomatic mission to remind the Canadians that we as Americans actually care about the relationship. And one of the things I said there

is it is my lived experience, especially as vice president, that the relationship between nations, one of the greatest foundations of those relationships, I believe, is the relationship between the peoples of those nations, not just whoever happens to hold power at the moment. And a lot of our work also in that regard is about understanding not only our military power, but our so-called soft power,

which is the power that we demonstrate through diplomatic, work, including humanitarian work. The work that we do that understands the measure of the strength of a leader is not just based on who you beat down, it is based on who you lift up. And your work, Ashley, is so important to that end. And while we have an administration right now that does not appreciate or understand that, there is going to come a day where there are still so many who believe in us as Americans, even though they are feeling the myriad of emotions you described about what they're saying come out of the White House. And we have to stand strong as the American people on our commitment to our principles and our values and our relationships

to people around the world. So don't give up. Don't give up. And right now, the work that, you know, you and so many of us can do includes. People ask me, Julia, about what they can do to be active. And yes, it's about organizing around elections and campaigns. It's also about, for example, working with nonprofits right now,

like humanitarian organizations, they're doing such good work, and so many of them are so strapped. and you can't imagine the power that we have as individuals to call them up or to go and knock on a door and say, hey, I'm here to help. What can I help you with in any regard? You know, whether it be about immigration or whether it be about parents who are in need or homelessness or what we are doing in terms of international nonprofit organizations that are American nonprofits that are doing work from an international perspective, There's so much good work happening right now and so many folks in need, and we have the power. We have the power.

This is our country. Hell yeah. This is our country. Hell yeah. And we have the power. And we will take our power. We're not let anyone taking our power from us. That's not what we're going to do.

It is our country. We will not allow our spirit to be defeated by any election, any individual, any circumstance. We are strong. We love our country. We care about community. And we love the South. We love the South.

Thank you so much, everybody. She didn't just fall out of a coconut tree. It's the former Vice President. Give her one more round of applause. Loud me here, y'all. Appreciate you. Thank you so much. Liya tea, laity, laity, laity.

Liati, laity. Liya tea, laity. Kung Fu, Keni n'em. My resume is real enough for two millenniums. A better way to make it where, start defending them. I meditate and moderate all of my wins again. I'm hanging on the fence again. I'm always on your mind.

I put my lyric and my lifeline on the line. Ain't it on limit when I might shine. Mike grind. You're rolling with it at the right time right now. Only for the dollar sign. Bad girl, rip it now. Swirt, swirl, swear, swear, Rush, right, try to leave it now.

On your clothes, I could see the end. Gas on the bitch, I can spit me in. Call ass on the bitch, all in the fast. I ain't been a bad bitch with before any cash came. I'm a sad bitch. I'm a carress. I'm my name right, Alice. I'm a natural, I'm a red.

I'm a savage. I'm my asshole. I'm a king. She me out. She me out. You can tell your nigga he can meet me outside. You can babysit him when I leave him outside. Ain't I love like the one I know.

I don't been down so long lost so. I don't been down so hard I slow. I don't need to have a holler real nigger won't I said I'm geek and I'm fired up all I want you not you just get high and all I want is all I want is loyalty loyalty loyalty loyalty loy loyalty loyalty 10 for no switching sides feel something wrong you whack and shifting you don't buy with me no more I need loyalty loyalty loyalty loyalty The Bullwark Podcast is produced by Katie and editing by Jason Brough.