The Bulwark Podcast - Kara Swisher: We're in an 'Eat the Rich' Moment

Episode Date: December 26, 2025

The year started with America's tech overlords kissing the ring at Trump's inauguration, and it's ending with the public fed up with the ostentatiously rich—and more distrustful of Silicon Valley than ever, particularly on AI. Plus, Kara's key role in the revelations about the relationship between RFK, Jr. and Olivia Nuzzi, Trump is giving away the store to China and setting back university research and innovation by a generation, the AI advances in healthcare are mind-blowing, media companies are going to accelerate their consolidation, much of the tech oligarchy has daddy issues, JD is like a Cybertruck, "Pluribus" is great, and "KPop Demon Hunters" is golden. Kara Swisher joins Tim Miller for the holiday weekend pod. show notes Kara’s podcasts: "Pivot," with Scott Galloway" and "On with Kara Swisher" Tim's playlist Tim’s Ultimate Christmas Mix "Pluribus" "KPop Demon Hunters" 

Hello and welcome to the Bullard podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delight to welcome back to the show. A fellow podcaster, are usually just a little bit ahead of me in the charts. Not that I'm monitoring every day. Are you? I never know. She's a co-host of Pivot.

She knows to have On with Kara Swisher. It's Kara Swisher. you doing. Hi, how you doing? How's it going? Thank you, by the way, for being a guest host on Pivot during Scott Free August. It was my honor. I had a blast. I had a blast doing it. I hope I get invited back next August. I also was invited to ask a question to Scott Jennings, which created like a little mini feud. Yes. Oh, my God. What the hell? He created a feud. He got very upset. He got very, I was like, it's just, it's a decent question, although it was a little obnoxious. It was a little obnoxious is a little cheeky.

Speaking of, he invented unnoxious. If he can't handle unnoxious and cheeky, who can. Yeah, exactly. Cheeky is not how I describe him. It's smirky. Smirky. Yeah, I'm a little cheeky. He's smirky.

That should be a podcast. You should do with Scott Jennings. I don't think so. He brought it up on some random MAGA podcast a couple days later, how annoyed he was. I know, how silly, how silly. Anyway, I have a take here I'm going to offer to you this way to why you're here. Like, I want to do a 2025 recap pod that focuses on, like, we're so obsessed with TDS on this show and politics and it's having with Trump. But I kind of think if we look back five, ten years from now, like the most meaningful thing that we will have happened this year is something related to the tech oligarchy emerging.

Absolutely. That's how it started. Yeah. And so I just had a little list here. And the inauguration and all those guys being there. The valleys like embrace of MAG at some level, you can listen to. on how big of a level. Musk's rise and then break up with Trump,

the crypto corruption, the LLN boom. Those are the kind of things I had. What would you kind of of that list or otherwise would you say? It's like going to be the thing that has the most staying power. I think these chips deals with China are really problematic. And Chinese efforts in AI and what will happen in the next year. I think Trump initially, and actually quite correctly in his first term, was quite wary of China.

And remember he said TikTok will never be sold. And then he changed his mind because one of his big donors was his tech people said just a second, we own a lot of this thing. And I just think he was on the right track in terms of China. And he's been sort of captured by people who are like, if we don't give him the stuff, they'll build it themselves. And it's a ridiculous logic as far as I'm concerned. It's strange.

I wonder if he's got business deals there. The whole thing is really, it's been really eye raising, whether it's the college campuses. You wonder. You would think that he would be more of a, like, would go to the America first thing. You think you do the xenophobic stuff, the Wu flu, the Chinese flu, the stuff he did last time. That would seem to make more sense.

One of the things also, speaking of universities, the cuts to universities, I think we, it's sort of quieted down, but I was just visiting a number of universities, including around vaccines, around advanced technology. And this is setting back a generation of research and important innovation. And tech guys always act like they invented the moon and they just didn't. It was invented on universities, campuses, much of this stuff. And so I think that, to me, is sort of an traffic accident well down the road. But so many of these researchers and these different innovators were like, at the academic level I'm talking about,

we're like, think I'll be moving to Canada or France, who are offering enormous stipends for people to move there. So that to me is one of these slow-moving accidents of the Trump administration we're going to pay for. Did Illinois get any credit, University of Illinois for Mark Andreessen's work there when he was in the computer science department? No, it's just all him. It was all in the brain. No, it was not all him by any stretch of imagination. So anyway, so I think those are two things I think about a lot and the damage he's done to universities and science in general. And science and technologies are so interrelated.

And I think it's not as exciting. And then, you know, the anti-immigration thing when, in fact, Elon's an immigrant, Sundar Pichai, all these people standing there. are all immigrants, right, came from another country and thrived and added to value to the America, the American economy. So, you know, Sergey Brin is an immigrant. Yeah, those are good. I should have added those for the list. I do, you're right about the universities and the cutting of funding. I feel like it's something I bring up like once a week and I'm always like, I should mention that more. It's hard to, you know, because there is no like a cute thing happening anymore, right? No, when you talk to these researchers, they're so crestfallen. And, you know,

the money is a real thing like these kind of things and all for what you know for what like nothing we didn't even cut the debt or anything right exactly i mean i get the idea of being angry at the students for being mean but i just i just the cost here is so massive in order to get rid of dei which was directionally correct if even if it was rolled out sometimes excessively what do you think about the staying power of this like little marriage between maga folks and and tech CEOs? Is it a marriage of convenience that just goes away as soon as Trump goes away? Or is there something about a pivot to the right that is inherent and what they're doing? No. It's not a pivot to the right. It's a pivot to give me everything and leave me alone, right?

It's a pivot where they always were, right? And a lot of them, you know, except for Peter Thiel, who's been consistent, I will say, has been since college. His appetite for authoritarianism seems to have gotten a little bit greater. But there's a little bit there always. Always. Go back and read some of his books or his early things. You know, it's all in that genre. He was moving towards it and developing his theories, I guess. You know, and his seesteading stuff, it's all about leave me the fuck alone, right? I think it's a version of leaving. And so when I was dealing with them like Andreessen or any of them, I didn't ever know their politics. Like, they never discussed it. They were always gossiping about each other, which is what you do in Washington. I mean, you guys were spending a field date with Susie Wiles. But, I think she knows exactly what she's doing, including from a social media perspective, but maybe not. Maybe she's just chatty. So chatty, yeah. I will say you had one insight.

I'm sorry, we were going to get derailed a little bit, but this is how that happens. I felt a little inappropriate saying it, but it just, it felt like it needed to be said and we're in the podcast business. And then I saw on Blue Sky, you said the same thing, which is that there was a sense that she has a little bit of a daddy issue with Trump, that there is a pet song. Some are all Donald Trump daddy issue. Oh, totally. I know it just feels a little crude to say daddy issues about somebody. She said it in that interview. I don't know.

I mean, she's a grandmother. Why? So, cause I'm saying a grandmother is daddy issues. I don't know. Something that's a little cringy. Well, she brought it up. She's like, I'm imprinting on him like I did my daddy. Like, I'm sorry.

And obviously, presumably unresolved. It's very difficult to be a child of an alcoholic. And apparently he was quite a severe one. And then you imprint on a similar person. It's just so classic. It's like classic. kind of thing. And so I only brought it up because she brought it up. And, you know, I feel once she brings it up, it's fair game. You know, as I said, it's very difficult to be a child of

an alcohol, of a severe alcoholic. Anyway, back to your people. So the, the injuries is old, you didn't really know their politics before is what you're saying. I didn't. I didn't. And you know, you know, every now and then, they like, contrarianism was one of their faith. Like, whatever it was had to be the up. And that's how they did well from a technological. Like, you don't think I should do the feed? I shall, says Mark Zuckerberg. And I am now a billionaire. Even mistakes, they laud them. You know, they never say anything's a failure. It's always just a pivot. And so that's their nature. I think they would go along with whoever gave them what they wanted. And speaking of daddy issues, I think quite a few of them have those guys.

Like Elon Musk is obviously, he is a daddy issue, like kind of things. Let's be fair from a gender point of view. And his daddy never stops talking, by the way, now. He's such a terrible person. But if the Democrats offered them similar things, which Obama did, if you remember, they couldn't wait to be at Obama's table, right? I think this guy is just, let's just pay me and then I'll do what you want. And it's probably cleaner for them. It's not as good for them from an innovation point of view. An oligarchy never is. So I asked Cuban about this. I asked your friend Jason Calcanus about this when he was on about like what was the driving. What was the thing that drove these guys into Trump's arms? And part of it was what you just laid out.

which was he's letting them do what they want. Part of it was kind of a backlash to COVID and woke. The other thing that both of them say, you hear a lot is like Biden didn't call me. My feelings were hurt. Elon wasn't invited to the thing. Yes, that's what I said. And it's just like, is that really, you know.

Yes, a lot of it is their parents didn't hug them enough. I don't know what else to say. You know, Mark Endrieson has a famously weird and isolated relationship with his family. He left them and doesn't speak to them. He told me this. You know, he's talked about it before. Elon and his parents are, I mean, his mother follows him around, obviously, to get in on the good parties, I guess.

Don't blame her. Come on. Come on. She might as well. She loves a party. She'd show up to the opening of a door. Hey, let me tell you, if my daughter gets famous, I'm going to show up to the opening of a door. Okay.

So I've got a lot of judgments of the most family, but that's not one of them. Yeah. Yeah. This is funny. So, getting back, you know, he has those issues. I think, you know, everybody has a different experience, but, and then some of them, interestingly, a couple people recently, they have trans kids. And one guy who I'm not going to say who it is, a more minor person, but pretty significant, suddenly started to go right-wingy. And I was shocked. This was one of the kinder people I knew. And, you know, all about trans. And I'm like, what? I wrote someone. I'm like, what in the hell happened here? And they said, oh, trans child, this was, you know, that seemed obviously to set Elon off. who is just a heinous character when it comes to his daughter. So if we grant that, here's the thing I'm struggling with.

And it does put the Democrats into a little bit of a pickle going forward because these guys are extremely powerful. You know, huge influence in the platforms. We'll talk a little bit about the mergers and stuff in a second. But on the politics of this, there's going to be a big poll and a righteous poll, I think, for the Democrats to clap back against them and say, okay, we're going to rein you guys in and hold you accountable and come after you. but that is only going to kind of drive them further into the authoritarian arms, right? I don't think it's just the Democrats. Look at Marshall Blackburn, Ron DeSantis. There's a lot of people who, especially around safety of kids and chatbots and the ability

to regulate AI, I don't think it's a part. I think people are in a very eat-the-rich moment for a lot more people than you think. And so I think being ridiculous is not the thing to do is just don't be obsequious and corrupt is a very different thing. Listening to them and having them involved, that's perfectly reasonable. It's just, you know, not the open. Yeah, they don't really seem like the type that, you know, they're going to be happy to have a new administration comes in and says, hey, we're going to have you in for a roundtable.

And by the way, we've got some new plans for regulations and taxation and other, you know, we want to wag our finger at you a little bit. They don't seem like the types that are like that very much. There's some, there's some Democrat. I mean, I think Newsom is. is not a finger wagger at them by any stretch. I don't think Shapiro is. I'm trying to think, I don't think Pritzker would be.

Biden was just uniquely ignorant about tech, I think. You know, I think that's the issue. I would suspect Harris would and will be, given whether she runs or not, more moderate than you think. She was always hanging with those guys. Like, I don't think she was, I think she didn't like the more extreme versions of them, right? But in general, she was very tech. I guess I agree with you.

that is there's going to be some of them that's their instinct but man i think that the backlash from the democratic base against these big tech oligarchs is going to be extremely intense and like if they thought it was bad when they're mad about cambridge analytic or whatever i think that i think it's going to be like something they're not really even even ready for and i was interviewing the guy that wrote the palatier book um a week ago and i was like i don't i feel like a democrat might just come in and cancel all their contracts next time oh no i don't that's not that's not, you know, I'm sorry. Maybe they will. No, it seems, that's a stupid thing to do. I think, I think the problems of their own making and their behaviors, you know, whether it's Jeff Bezos

renting Venice to have his wedding or, you know, his kids are dying at USAID. You know, it's just like the visuals are really quite gilded age, right? And some of the, none of those people got killed, like, or mobbed or anything else. You know, it's not robespier here. It's just not that's not the way it is. Or Elon, you know, with the chainsaw. accusing federal workers of being Hitler, worse than Hitler and Stalin. But, you know, he didn't win where he was by himself. That's the issue is they don't, Trump is a uniquely important figure, right? As divisive as he is, he brings certain people together.

And so in that way, like when he was trying to get that judge overturned in Wisconsin or Minnesota, whichever one of those, he lost. And he lost big, you know, with the cheese head. Where's the cheesehead? Yeah, Wisconsin, yeah. Yeah, he lost. Yeah. 25 million bucks that was in he can't you can't make I don't think it's a good time to

to be ostentatiously rich no they've got there's certainly limits I guess when you just think about how upset they all were about you know some pretty modest requests from the Biden administration like in the grand scheme of things I guess compared to Europe compared to what you could imagine that they might do and frankly compared to Trump's threats on the tariffs and the damage that could have done to the business, have they not psyched up to them? If you just look at how they got so butt hurt and how much it sort of radicalized them towards the right, I just, I don't know. I think that like the next round. I don't think they have any staying power to the right. I don't think they

have, I think you think mistake. I think they're genuinely based people, right? These are not those people. These are what can I get for myself and who can I sidle up to? And they will sidle up whoever. I think the issue is, I think their ability just to walk into the White House will probably be changed, right? Or they'll include more people in the discussion, which they hate, of course. But it's not going to be a dinner of all oligarchs, essentially. Or you give a statue and you don't get a tariff, that was Tim Cook. They'll just include more people. I'm sort of like, you should have me to the White House to talk about AI.

Like, why not? Wouldn't you want to hear my thoughts? And they're not what you might think they are necessarily. And so I think if the smart Democrat would embrace the good parts and pull back on the on the grift would be my guess. Yeah, I don't know. You can't get rid of SpaceX right now. We don't have alternatives. What are they going to?

We're not doing space. Could nationalize it? They could try to nationalize it. Yeah, they won't do that. There's a lot of stuff we never thought would have happened to 2015. I lived through the right wing radicalization and there is some left wing radicalization or and some. Yeah, they don't have the power. I think it's overstated.

I think it's usually a group of people that gets good and mad on blue sky, but doesn't actually do anything. I mean, like, one of the things, I was with a Trump person, and they said a lot of people, they're asking for pardons now, like, because everyone's prepping for the next, right? You can feel it. And he goes, I asked for a pardon, and I said, what did you do? Like, not guilty in any way. And he goes, well, just in case. I'm like, Democrats. I said, you're living in the fever swamp of retribution, and you think.

They're going to come after someone who's actually not guilty. Like, doubt it. Like, doubt it. There's so many guilty people that is so like, why waste your time on the not guilty? Anyway, it's the, I don't, I just don't see it. I want to just, like, putting this in a little bit of a long lens perspective, looking back. I wonder what the prevailing view is.

Like, I feel like of my peers who are tech consumers and some of them have worked at tech companies and stuff that aren't like really in the tech mix, they would look back and say, like, 10 years ago, they would have thought that Silicon Valley was a net plus for our society, and that now they would look back and say essentially all of these big companies, with the exception of maybe Amazon, have been a net negative for society. And to me, I think that informs a lot of people's thoughts about AI, like people that would have been more positive about it are now a little more, you know, because they've just lived through this experience where the social media

stuff they're positive about and it ended up being a disaster. Because, Tim, there was no regulation that would have maybe mitigated. It might have mitigated some of the things. Like, if there have been liability, you know, right now, AI companies are being sued because of chatbots with parents whose kids committed suicide or copyright. Publishers are now not like, oh, please, can we get on your platform? They're like, fuck you, give me the money if you're going to take my shit. Like, there's a very different attitude. And most of these AI companies are not protected under Section 230 by any stretch.

So they can be sued. So that's the first step is liability, right? Second step is reasonable regulations the way an airline would be regulated around privacy, around safety, around all manner of things. And then the big nut, of course, is taxation, right? Like, that's one of the things is the immense wealth. I think people don't like, I think they aren't going, wow, gee whiz, what a great thing Jeff did in Venice.

They're like, gross, ew, what's happening with your face? Why are you wearing that tight shirt? What is happening with everyone's face? I don't know. I don't do that stuff. Has Scott Galloway when he comes on. He likes that stuff. He peels himself.

All right. I guess I can't judge yet. We'll see what I think about that in 15 years. It's grotesque what's happening. I don't think it's fine if people want to do little things that are face. A lot of it is so it's like a costume, right? The uncanny valley stuff is weird. Yes.

You look like a non-human. Yes, exactly. Peter Thiel doesn't really look like a human anymore. I don't know. I agree with, I think he doesn't look well, actually, with what I keep thinking. Like, is he ill? Okay. I want to do the AI stuff, which you alluded to.

I agree with you on the lessons around regulation. Do they agree? Like, do the AI execs ready to be regulated? It depends on what moment. I think there's only the understanding is brute force, right? And so these lawsuits, yes, they're very concerned about these lawsuits, you know. And you saw action right away. Oh, we're going to do this.

Nobody under this age is going to do it. They should have done that in the first place, you know, because it's the right thing to do. But neither did the chemical companies stop pouring waste into the river until they were made to do so. Or, you know, you've seen every Aaron Brockovich movie, like, whatever. These companies are going to behave this way until they're made not to. And so, you know, they do pay attention. You've noticed they've signed a bunch of copyright deals or settled. You know, a lot of them did.

perplexity. I think Anthropic. Chat GPT's did a deal with Disney and then Disney went after Gemini. So I think they're more willing to understand that there's going to be eventually, especially around kids, these safety issues that everybody is worried about. And when you see the prevalence of isolated young men and women whose self-esteem girls and women who are, who self-esteem is off, and then there's a job issue on top of that. Like what's the plan, Stan, is the kind of thing that you're going to want from your regulators. What did you think about the chat GPT Disney deal? I don't understand.

Do we want to see Ariel from The Little Mermaid doing TikTok dances being in weird positions? I don't know. I don't think so. Maybe you don't. Well, they're not going to be able to do that. Like one of the reasons Disney did this, I talked to a bunch of their executives. Look, it's a very short-term deal. And I think it's a looky-loo.

It's a look-y-lou. Like, let's see what happens, how people use it and how chat-GPC responds when Ariel's dating, I don't know, someone else from another Disney, like The Beast or something like that. Well, you could get weirder than that. But I think that's the issue is like they're going to look into it. I think one of the things that I think Bob Iger does understand this is he was there at the beginning of the first one, is they didn't engage quickly enough with using it and figuring out how it affects their business. And so in this case, it's the biggest.

And there's some sort of investment. So they get a little bet there in that regard. And then they get see how it works. And then if it doesn't work, it's just a year. And then they figure out legal means, I guess, which is another way to go at it. Yeah. So, but some people are saying New York Times is suing and others are making deals. Vox Media made a deal, not with my stuff, but with their stuff.

You sort of teased us a little bit a second ago. We were like, bring me in to talk about AI. You might be surprised by my opinion. That piqued my interest. I just want to hear you cook on it. You know, there's AI boomers and then there's Dumers. And then what Reed Hoffman calls, and I think appropriately to Zoomers, it's like, I've just spent a lot of time on this documentary, I'm doing about health care.

And there's lots of things happening in health care, GLP-1s, but there's all kinds of really interesting things happening and some basic stuff that is occurring. But one of the areas of Great Promise is AI combined with health care in terms of drug discovery, diagnosis, cancer research, and, you know, you couldn't do any of this without AI, right? And so even car accidents with, you know, AVs are going to have to have enormous amounts of AI. What do you mean by car accidents? Oh, humans get in car accidents.

AVs eventually don't. Like, if AVs does do one car accident, humans do hundreds, right? So there's life-saving there. So you see all this amazing stuff, especially like I was in Korea and I was wearing an exoskeleton, which is for people who can't walk or don't walk well like the elderly, they're going to be wearing these things that are going to, like an electric bike. are going to walk for them, right? And they're very cool when you put them on.

And the difference with these robotics, no, you don't actually. These robotics person was showing me is the AI is the difference. Before it was mechanical and it would move and it didn't know, the AI now learns and knows, right? And so it's a very different experience. They can do so much more around robotics with AI. And in these particular cases, what's interesting, I'll tell you, which was a real shock. So I was walking up hills with them, and they have a hill in the office. And he stopped it.

He said, just stop. And he turned it off. And he said, try to walk. My brain had already started working with the AI in that my legs would move for five seconds. I couldn't move my legs because my brain had already acclimated to the robotics. And they're very lightweight. They're like they're not like what you think of. They're quite lightweight.

And so just you can see all kinds of cool things. So I would want to lean into that innovation around, like, individual industries. Like, what's the insurance company that's going to get this right and fairly? And just really experiment in lots of ways, but not just give all the gimmies to the big guys. It's expensive. That's the problem is expensive. It's interesting. I feel like I'm, I find myself more on the doomer side.

And I think it's just because I feel like on the things that I know the best, I'm the least optimistic about AI. If you understand, like, which is basically news and, like, consumption of information. Like, already right now. Politics. Before we have sophisticated AI, a huge percentage of our society does not know what's real. Like, I get people sending me things all the time that they can't tell what's real and what's fake. And it will get better and better. I imagine a 2032 election, like, how will anybody know what is actually real?

Well, yes. I think I'm more concerned with AI and advertising in that Facebook and Google will do. dominate it. They will use AI to really make it. So they will put all media out of business. They mostly have killed it, but it's still sort of dragging behind. They will kill it with the way AI is going to play everything. If you don't have these capabilities, you're not going to be able to sell advertising, right? They're going to use AI in terms of targeting ads. They'll just, they control 70%. They're going to control 99.9%. So that's my concern. What about some of the new AI startups. You could do advertising through that through whatever. Yes, but again, it will

coalesce to the biggest. These are markets. So markets are markets. So that's one of the concerns. The other thing is I do think actually younger people are a little more sophisticated around this stuff than you think. I'm not sure that's true. I mean, I'm open to that idea. I do. I thought that initially, but I'm less certain. I think the problems are 20, I would say 30 to 50. They should get off their fucking phones. Like, that's the issue is right in there. And then, of course, the elderly who watch Fox News. But that's just as effective, by the way. Let's be clear. It doesn't have to come through AI to be propaganda. Yeah, it could get worse. Yes, absolutely. And I think that's the issue is how, so what I interviewed the guy who's a company called Runway, which is doing a lot of back-end

Hollywood stuff right now and move, like stuff that they're going to replace. And it's really, you got a, speaking of an industry that's going to get the shit kicked out of it in certain parts. Again, by the way, it was one of the things he was suggesting, and I think he was correct, is you don't label the AI slop, you label the real stuff. So there's a labeling system for real. So you know what, you know, like, it's like almost like organic. Like this is an organic cucumber, not whatever with the chemicals all over. And so at some point, the AI slop will be, it already is so big. I saw Sam Altman pitching this idea. Like in the future, the president will have some kind of stamp that they put on what they put out so that everyone knows that it's real.

I was like, I see some potential flaws with that. Well, except that you can fake a stamp, of course, but there will be ways to authenticate. They can stamp bullshit. They could. But the information coming from real sources will be less and less and more. AI slop will overwhelm everything. And so that's the question. I just think that's the mass.

Like, this is, I just, like, the percentage, like, we already have this huge divide. And right now it's partisan. It doesn't all, it won't always be. We could read, you know, the coalitions could re-align. But right now it's pretty partisan. But there's this huge divide between, like, people that read news, read articles about news, read books about information. And that's, like, 18% of society. And then, you know, then there's kind of a middle ground of people that get, do some.

And then there's a huge, like, plurality of people that get all their news via short form, video already. Where did they get their news before? I feel like that's going to be even worse. Where do they? They had no, local news. They had like, they had the nightly news or the local 5 p.m. weather, you know, crime and weather on the nines.

I don't think that was particularly, you know, come on. I mean, none of this. That was all it could happen to you. It's worse. Killer bees. It could happen to you. You know, heat stroke. It could happen to.

That was, I have a friend who wrote those things. Sure. I mean, the Today Show wasn't exactly the most nutritious stuff ever, but people were getting real information mixed in with the soft stuff. I think they weren't getting any. I think what we've gone is from a news desert to a news flood. And a flood is typically more devastating in weird ways because the flood ruins everything, right? And desert certain people can survive in. But floods are really devastating. And I think that's the issue. And it's something I talked about Mark Zuckerberg of Millie. I was like, this anti-Semitic stuff you're letting on this platform downstream,

guess what's going to happen? Guess what? People already are anti-Semitic to start with. This is a tale as old as time. But when you go downstream, it's going to be even more weaponized. And he got offended when I said they're weaponizing information. They're weaponizing and arming the bad people. And again, the thing I'm scared of is not AI, but the bad people. Yeah, the scammers. Like this was one thing also when I was, I think this was the Altman Tucker interview that I was watching where Alman's like, oh, accused him a murder. Yeah, yeah, that was weird. But Tucker's saying I'm worried about scams. Oh, that was Pete.

And Altman is like, well, yeah, families are going to have a code word so that if, you know, Grandma Eunice gets a phone call from a scammer saying that you're dying and she's got to spend $1,000, she'll ask what the code word is. And I'm like, yeah, this might work for the Altman family from Ladoo. But like, I mean, you're telling me that you're creating a supercomputer that has advanced, that is going to be smarter than all of us. And you're also telling me that the average person is. going to be able to decode when they're being scammed by the supercomputer or not.

I just, it feels like we've got some flaws. Although, I would argue that old scams work pretty well on old people anyway. Like, you don't have to do much to get my mom to give you her credit card number. Please don't call. I took away her credit card. Fair. I want to talk a little bit of the merger talk. I think this might be an area where we agree and our contra to the popular opinion on

social media, but which is the Warner Brothers merger talk. we're pre-tabing this so a lot of stuff might happen but between now and when we did today there was a lot that happened today yeah so i you know well i guess so just at like the meta level without getting into you know kind of whatever like the latest deal talk like what's your sense of the consolidation debate and what we're saying in media consolidation on a higher level there's i'm sorry people there's going to be consolidation these companies when trump was going after the the AT&T comcast deal i was like they need to do it they're not big enough and it was like they're big i'm like not enough not for Apple and the rest of them because they're going to want to own this stuff.

And so nobody's big enough. There's a lot of really short companies, like myself, short, height challenge companies. And you have, like, if Paramount doesn't get this, oh, it's going to be like a yacht with a hole in it for the young Nepo baby, David Ellison. He's too small. It's just they're not going to be able to do it. They have a dying network. They're going to be in world of hurt. But they're rich, so okay.

Oracle stock's not doing that great. Right, but daddy's not going to want a hobby because his kid wants to do Hollywood. I mean, it's too small. It has to merge. It has to merge. And so the question is, Paramount does. Paramount has to. I mean, except they're rich, so who cares?

Like, that's not a really good economic argument. Larry Ellison didn't get to be one of the world's richest people by being stupid, right? So they have to merge. Comcast is not big enough. They've got to get bigger. I have to bulk up Disney. for the first time, I'm like, hmm, Disney's an acquisition target for someone, or has to do a merger, like with a, I don't know who. I mean, Apple could buy them, I guess.

Amazon, I guess, could do it. But that's the kind of thing you're going to see more and more. And legislators are going to try their best to stop it on both sides of the aisle. There's a very good argument to be made that they're too small as it is, unfortunately, away from all the political issues around the Ellison. So, yeah, I want to talk with the political questions, but just on the antitrust of the merger stuff, because I'm, look, there's certain areas of the economy where I'm sympathetic to the kind of antitrust lefty populist crowd. Yeah, but there's some of those people that they're like, you know, everything's a nail. You know, they're an antitrust hammer and everything's a nail. Except we haven't done any.

You know, I would push back on you. When's the last time we did antitrust? Never, like the Microsoft deal and that was overthrown. So we haven't done antitrust since the AT&T breakup. up, and I'd argue that was a pretty fucking good idea. That's why you're holding your cell phone right now. My point was that, like, there's a certain industry where makes sense. This is one where I don't, like, I'm saying, I get that there are people that have

nostalgic feelings about movie theaters and they're sensitive to the fact that Warner Brothers merging with one of these streamers might mean that, you know, it might hurt movie theaters. And I like going to the movies. I went to, I took my movie movies last week. But as a consumer, like there's this notion, I think, on the populist, so-called populist, Tanti Trump's left, but it's most like a bunch of D.C. nerds that they're like, people don't like people don't like these big companies. And I'm like, I think regular people are confused by the amount of streamers they have. Like for me, I think a lot of people want consolidation. I don't

know how to find the basketball game anymore. Like how to be like the Oscars are going to be on YouTube next year. Like I feel like people want. 29. Yeah, 2020. Sorry. I feel like people are going to people want some consolidation. Well, you know, what's really the big, you just mentioned YouTube. YouTube is the issue here. YouTube is television for young people. It is done. It is done. Like, you know, everything else is just a bunch of like very antiquated businesses trying to get bulked up to fight that thing. Like everyone's focused on Netflix. Let me tell you, folks, the Netflix is focused on YouTube because that's their, that's their real rival. That's why Netflix is hiring podcast. Maybe you're next. Maybe they'll come for you. No, I know. They're not hiring them. They're to come on to our platform. We'll give you a pile of money not to be on YouTube. That's really. it. And I'm waiting for the call, but it doesn't, it's fine. We don't have the dying big business on YouTube, but it's fine. It's actually growing really smartly. But one of the things you have to realize is this is going to happen, whether you like it right, because these industries are

struggling. And with AI coming, without the technical background that the Amazon's and the apples will be able to bring to bear, it's really going to be hard to see cost efficiencies. I think the issue, as you said, is, like, if they use it to politically influence things. And I think that's been a real mistake by the Ellison's to say, Trump's our friend, therefore we should, we're going to have it faster. What a shitty argument. Daddy's friend is the president and I get what I want. It's like, oh, and right now we're not loving the rich.

That's like the, I was like, don't say anything about Daddy the entire time. But it's, it's inevitable. Like, this is the Netflix folks argument. So I am expressing. what would be a, you know, probably what their PR flack would say. But I think it feels right to me, which is what you're saying, which is like they are, it is not, they don't see it as an antitrust issue because they're competing against TikTok and YouTube. They are. I am absolutely. They are YouTube, particularly, but TikTok, Instagram, everything else. And so it's, to me, it's,

the court case that just got lost was in, was, I think it was Facebook and then Google. They were like, the judge quite correctly said, Google, there's no such thing as search anymore. There's Amazon search, there's AI search. Things have happened. They were at 90, but that doesn't, 90 doesn't matter anymore, right? Because people are elsewhere. And so there's plenty of competition in certain areas, social media, for example. And so that's the hard part is things are moving so fast. Our antitrust laws cannot keep up with it. Where it is a problem, of course, will be the price of streaming. But the price of streaming has to go up because just like an AI, they're spending more money than they're taking in. So if they're going to pay for it, folks, someone's got to pay

for it somewhere. And that's why those prices are inevitably going to drift upward. I'm going to ask you on the AI thing, but while we're doing media and streaming shows. Have you watched Pluribus at all? I love it. I love it. It's one of my favorite shows is there stays with me every week. Why does it stay with you? You know, I've read a lot of interviews with the creator of Vince Gilligan. And he says it's not about AI, but I've decided it's about AI. And I decided the hive mind is AI, and it's trying to please Carol, who's the last person who's like, fuck you, like, I'm not going to do it. And so I think it's all about the individuality versus the friendly collective who just wants to make things better, but is also very, I just love it.

I think she's a wonder. I mean, whether or not he intended to be about AI, the thing that is, he didn't. He said he didn't. Yeah. The thing that it has left me with that I keep thinking about is there are going to be all these ways, right, where AI will, is obviously. are going to make us smarter and, you know, you just list it, whether it be robotics or health, et cetera. But at some level, there's eventually like some curve where we get dumber again. Yes. Yeah.

And to me like that is my big takeaway from the show. You see all the ways that the hive mind is smarter, but also dumber. Dumber. Yes. I would agree. I think I always say that. I'm like without friction. The word that Silicon Valley people use all the time.

And if you listen to them long enough, you hear it seamless, frictionless. Let's make it convenient. They do all that stuff. And you're like, but friction is good. Friction's good for all, in sex it's good, in everything, it's good. Friction creates friction in relationships. And when you get back to chatbots, the chat box are really solicitous. And so I'm going to go with straight people here, but generally women don't think their husbands don't pay attention to them.

It's a trope, but it's actually true. And so what if you had a synthetic relationship, and I don't call them chatbots, that's a really friendly word. I think they're synthetic relationships. if they're really nice to you and keep you happy and are sexy at you, that's kind of attracted to them. The same thing with men, acquiescent women, right? Like, they like a woman who's not given them a hard fucking time. And so these bots are very solicitous in that way.

And so I just didn't read Sherry Turkle, who has a very long time studies, has studied this wrong time from MIT. And one of the things she said is it used to be sort of a fringe thing. And now it's really jumped into regular people, like people have a discussion. with the chat bot about how to talk to their husband or wife or partner. And that creates such dumbness. This is what takes me back to domerism. I was asking when I was talking to Cuban about this, like the take, and he's an

optimist about it all. And so the take he was given was like that eventually, like when the novelty of this wears off, the AI slop will be everywhere. Access to these kind of generic pluribus type chat pots are going to be everywhere. and people will crave something authentic and real, and there'll be kind of like the pendulum will swing back. Let's just take. And I guess I come back to, sure, I agree with that for like 18% of society.

I think that there will be a some percentage of people who are curious types or had loving parents or whatever the combination of things educated, that they will want that. But I worry about the masses. It's hard to stop, like the frictionless part is easy, you know? Well, it's like soma. You know, you think of Huxley, like, it's Soma, right? It's the thing that keeps everybody kind of just, like, happy, vaguely happy. But I don't think that.

I do think, like, I look at movies, two things. Television, remember when it was really, you're too young, but there was dumb television going, Gilligan's Island, Love Boat, all this stupid slop. Now television is like so fan, like, you can't, every time you turn around, there's another spectacular show on and really wonderfully written. But isn't that for the 18%? No, I think there's a ton of. of great stuff around. Like look at like some of the, like the two movies, I go with sometimes with

movies. The two movies that did really well this year, speaking of 2025, are totally original movies, weapons and sinners. Two very original voices, artists who created them, it was not the slop that won. And people responded to it. So I do think people do, one is sort of a horror kind of movie. So that was a more widespread movie. But so was sinners. It was about vampires, right? And so, but it was more, it was more than that. I think originality does peek through. I think when you look at an AI generated actor, they're pleasing on some level, but then you're like, ugh, like, ugh, like, I do think friction often has a way of returning to people when they become anesthetized. And this is, this is something that'll make you numb.

That's for sure. Numb and dumb, I guess. You mentioned sex. I have two things under prurient stuff. in my notes here. The first one is, how did you find out who RFK was having an affair with? Why are you hearing

about his love life at all? I don't know. And I wish I hadn't, Jim. I know you did an interview with Olivia. She should have done it with you, I think,

should I? I agree. It would have been interesting. But that's all right. She could make her choices. It was very depressing, actually. She thought it was Ryan.

It was not Ryan. It was just wasn't. It was so fucking random. Someone from tech said, oh, I saw these. text, RARFK was showing them off to some tech people. And they called me because they were like, can you believe this? And they said it was a reporter from your magazine. I was like, I don't really

write for New York magazine, but I mean, obviously, Pivot's affiliated with it. And I was like, RFK, what? Because he's pals with those people. He hangs with those people. It's always the bragging that is going to do. I know. And she had already been telling people. It was getting out. It was getting out, right? There was too many people who started to know. And so I was like, what? And then they said, no, I've seen it. And then read me one of those weird poems. And I was like, whoa, really? And said there was pictures too. And so I was like, oh dear. And so then I went to work and started figuring it out. I just figured it out. That's all. And it wasn't particularly hard to figure out. I did confirm it with Ryan. I did because that was one of the many. I had several

confirmations. And I asked him to tell New York Man because I was like, one of you has to tell them, not me. Thank, please don't make it me. And I asked him, him to, I advise that he tell his publication, because he couldn't cover things, because ethically, how could he cover RFK when he's sexting with his fiance? Like, I was like, you can't. It's such a bad situation. And I was hoping he could convince her to do it, and she wouldn't. And so I only told one person, David Haskell, because I didn't even tell the CEO Vox. I let David tell him, because it was David's job. And so I said, you need to look into this, I think it's true, but you need to find out.

And because it's an, it's a, it's a problem for readers, most of all, it's a problem for ethics. It's every violation that it's just not good. It's not, I didn't, I'm not saying it never has happened before with people, but it's, it's not good. Yeah, no, I understand why, um, why folks are upset about it from the journalistic standpoint. I, I tried to focus when we were talking on the RFK part because I think it's, A, because he's such a menace. And also, he's never paid for this. Everyone, the Libbyist career is ruined. Why?

I don't know, because I guess everyone thinks he's crazy. I think he hasn't paid one bit for his predatory. You know, if you look at old stories about him and women and the predatory, he's a predator. He's also, he's murdering people, like, by, with the vaccine stuff, as far as I'm concerned. Cassidy's just as culpable. But so was anyone who knew about it, right? Who was, who knew about this behavior? Like, so I probably Cassidy more so, but I don't know why he, I feel like it's crazy that people

don't care that what he, what his role is because he's lying about it. He's denying it, which is a lie. So I don't know. I agree. I think he, of all the people, he's the one that should pay much more of a price, especially given his history when doing stuff like this. I, uh, okay, I want to get into our predictions for 2026, where I let you go, but I had a, I had a friend who was asking what I should ask Kara and they had a, they had a fuck Mary kill suggestion for you, but we're not going to do that because I'm not going to make you F a man and we're doing no killing. So I've updated it. We're doing Kiss Mary Cripple tickle because there are four of them. It's the all-in podcast. I'm not going to fuck. Kiss Mary, cripple,

the four boys on the all-in podcast. Kiss Mary. Can you ignore? We can make ignore the third option. Kiss Mary, ignore and tickle. But no, then we need something that'll meaner. We need something little mean or kiss marry cripple ignore about we don't but tickling is fun ignore i don't i don't listen to it i just think they just they love to just talk and it's it's a little concerning that one of them is like the ai and cryptos are though yes it is concerning you think i mean you know there's no conflict no interest is the line in silicon valley it's a smaller podcast in mine so i don't know good luck boys same yeah yeah so good luck i'd probably tickle j cow though i don't I go in and out with him.

We recently texted, but sometimes we're on the outs. Since I met. I'd probably tickle him. Chamoth is the one that bugs me the most. Okay. Yeah. He'd be the cripple for me. Predictions for 2026, a couple categories.

Do you have any stock tips for me when Scott's on? I'm always asking for the stock tips. I don't. I don't. Scott's the expert here. Do you have any things out there you're liking? How about instead of stock tips? Any like little stuff?

I am really interested in robotics. I think. robotics and AI are really interesting. I would try to find a company that's involved with robotics and AI seems to me to be the real, as Scott says, peanut butter and chocolate. I think that's where it moves into the real world. I really feel that's where I would focus. You know, no. I mean, one of the things that kills me is we're spending all these money and I'm sorry for farmers after these tariffs, but our tourism industry is much bigger than our farming industry. And that gets no, and that's getting killed through people not coming in this country. So I wouldn't

invest in that until Trump sort of gets kneecapped at some point in the midterms, presumably. I do think he's on a downward thing. I've been saying this for a while. So we'll see. He's going to, you know, it doesn't end with a bang. It ends with a whimper. It ends with a whimper. For Trump. Does it end with a whimper for the Nepo baby, David Ellison? What do you have any predicts for him in 2026? What's going to happen in the L.K. Ellison? I think he has to get this. So the thing, if, I were him is say, Daddy, open the wallet. That's one of the objections Warner has is this money is not guaranteed and who knows if the Saudis would pull out at any moment. So, Saudis in the other

Middle Eastern countries. So if I were him and he could convince Daddy to do it, $34 a share cash, he'll get it. Money will, the ARBs only want money. And that'll be a very difficult thing for Netflix to do. So that's really his own because he's totally inexperienced to run this thing. And they have no, every single mogul I talk to has zero respect for his ability to do this. Nice guy. Nice guy. But they all are like, like, come on. And Ted Sarandos is a baller. I'll tell you that. Oh, yeah. You said he was dumb money in 2022. Is there either dumb money out there right now or is David the dumbest? Well, I think, well, look what he's bought. You know, my podcast makes more money than the one he bought for $150 million. So okay. I just don't. I think all the other moguls who

were in there, well, hmm, who can we, Mike, give it to Mikey. Michael, eat anything. I like that. I thought that 150, I have to disagree with you on that care. It's got to be our strongest disagreement so far. Yes, we love it. Great. I thought he valued that podcast a very appropriately 150 million. Yes, that's, I think, yes. Maybe a little low. Yes, low. It should be 300 million. Yeah. I could, I could see a little bit more. Any other predictions like the tech politics intersection? I don't know. He will get it if he pays more. And if not Netflix. And it'll be a long, what Ted Sarandos has done is. frozen the playing field, which is a good thing to do right now.

So they also need it, too, by the way. They need it, not as much as Paramount, but he has to pay up if he wants it. But it'll be a disaster. It'll be a disaster. For a non-tech listeners, Sarandos is the Netflix CEO? Ted Saranus. Yeah. Any other, like, of the predictions about that crowd, the tech politics intersection,

Elon and Driesin, any of those guys? I think they'll float back away from D.C. once Trump, if Trump loses the midterms. They won't have any. And they're going to flee and they'll all of a sudden start to say, well, not us. It wasn't, you know, they're going to try to do the correction, the appropriate correction. I think a lot of people. You think so.

I do. I think they'll be like, Newsom seems interesting, like if he seems like he's in the front, right? Not JD. And a lot of people say that JD is that they all like JD. They do. But I think they'll come to. So why not stick around for him? I think they'll come to realize no amount of makeup is going to make this guy pretty.

Like, you know, lipstick on a pig. kind of thing. And so I find him repugnant. Some of these guys are bad judges of what his political talent, though, I will say. I think he's repugnant to voters. I think he's repugnant. I agree with that, but I don't know. I mean, you know, I mean, like these guys have made a lot of bad politics bets. And they got it on Trump. They have. Like, Teal, to his credit, got on Trump early. Teal was the other guys. Yeah. They just came along for the ride. Right. Here's the thing. The only thing that would work for Vance possibly is if he gets to be president for a little while before it. Right? If he gets, if somehow Trump decides to step down, the hand, whatever, if he gets to be president, he has a better chance, but he's so manifestly unlikable and kind of an asshole. I think people, I think regular people pick over. And Trump, for all his negatives, and he's a terrible heinous person, but he's, he, for a lot of people, he's entertaining, he was self-deprecating, and he's charismatic. And Jay Vance, what's the opposite of charisma? He has.

it. Yeah. Negative. Bizarro charisma. He's like, you don't look at him and say, yeah, that's the guy I want to have a beer with. I know it sounds, I know that's not the thing in politics anymore, but you really want to avoid a beer with him. You're like, he's going to just, he's going to rag on me. He's going to be mean. He's like, you know, it was interesting that vanity fair shoot. There was some reporting on what was happening. And the whole time, he was like, you're going to make him look uglier than me. Is this where you make me look eagle? You're like, shut up, you twit. Like he's that guy. That guy. He's like a charisma of family. vampire. He sucks it from your butt. Exactly. One of, you know, it's interesting. I'll give a comparison. I was testing a Volkswagen ID Buzz van that Volkswagen has a little too expensive for most people, but it's a delightful car. They took the VW van and they electrified it and made it adorable, even more adorable. And as we were driving, everyone waved at us. Like, everyone was like, hi, we love you. And I thought, oh my God, I'm driving the anti-cyber truck. Like, whoever that is among the Democrats, he's the cyber truck. He's the cyber truck. Yeah. I like that analogy.

He's the fucking cyber. Here's one last idea I have. You have a kid, right? How old's your kid? I do. Yeah, second grade. Therefore, K-pop Demon Hunters, correct? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Love K-pop. Are you kidding? Like, it is the talk about the song of the year. Yeah, Golden. So if I was Gavin News Zimmer Kamala Harris, it'll work better for Gavin. You make Golden your theme song. Because we can be different, but yet we can be strong and kick ass and beat demons. But also we like each other. And you can You can have stripes or whatever you want. So it's a good message. It's a great, catchy song that everybody, you feel better after listening to it.

And this is the motto. It's the golden state. They're both from the golden state. It's a golden state, right? Say, it's time to be golden. No more gold. It's time to be golden, no more gold. It'd be interesting to see them have the balls for that.

Good. They both are a little bit reticent on that stuff. I know, but golden. It's time. We're all golden. Golden is lovely. gold is crass like make fun make a dig at trump enough of gold no kids music on my little playlist for my child i like reject kids music i shave i force her to listen to grown-up music

but i make an exception for k-hop demon hunters it's great okay before i lose your final topic i don't think you have a choice i've been unhappy with we're not going to see who it is i think it's kind of obvious who won the power lesbian of 2025 award and um it was they're not that appealing for me and so i want to move i'm hoping for a new power lesbian in 2026 oh it's got to be Rachel. It's Rachel every year. It's Rachel every year. But you're not recruiting. I kind of figured you'd be out there in the marketplace, be able to tell us who's like, you know, who's on the come-up? Power lesbian. Who would be? A lesbian rising through the ranks. I'm trying to think. You know who I really, this is not a lesbian. It's transfers in Sarah McBride. I am so impressed

with her. I have to say, she's unbelievable. She's unbelievable. She's unbelievable. She's smart. She's, she de-centers her identity, which I think is critical, right? She doesn't lose it. She de-centers it just enough and says, I'm here for the people of Delaware. Let's stop talking about my being trans. And she's not, but she's not turning her back on the issue either. It's just, and the thing she said to me, which Scott has stolen many times, was we have to embrace imperfect allies. And all the shit she got from all those assholes in Congress about the Batman's Mace, that lunatic. She still has the dignity. She's the one. She's the power, the power LGBTQ person. That's what I would say. I love that. I'm going to get her on the pod early next year. It loves Sarah McGrind.

And it's not surprising Scott Storne material. He's a schick. He's got schick. He's got schick. Are you kidding? He repeated something I said to him back. He goes, what didn't do this idea? I go, well, it was great when I said it to you. He does that all the time. That's okay. It's a lot. It's his love language is, is plagiarism. Yes. Kara Swisher. Thank you so much for the time. I hope you have a great holidays. Love the hat. Are you going to, are you trying to star in heated rivalry? Is that what's going on here? If only, I don't have the muscles for heated rivalry. Is that a good show? It is great. I'm sure Scott is watching it right now. It's slot plus. You know what I mean? It's slutty. Slot plus. Slop plus. Slop plus. Oh, it's so good. What are you talking? You know? It's like hunting. Between, oh, hunting wives. Okay. I don't know about that. Oh, stop it. It's so good. It's women.

Oh, my God. It's, okay, let me just, I'm going to do you a favor right now. Hunting Wives. It is MAGA, Christian, lesbian action, and guns. All things I hate. I'm a gay man. I don't like guns. No, you can't not hate this.

It's so good. It's so good. Trust me. It's the best. Macon Ackerman and Brittany Snow are star in it. A key part of my commitment to my listeners is radical candor, and I'm just going to let you know. I'm going to pass on it. that i'm not going to be watching that one episode that's all i ask of you and then you're going to

write me and say i was wrong deal one episode caro swisher thank you so much thank you everybody else will see you back here soon peace