The Bulwark Podcast - Lis Smith: Dems Need to Burn Down the Party Establishment

Episode Date: August 8, 2025

There's a direct line between when the Democratic Party got nationalized and when it started getting wiped out in red states. Dems need to embrace heterodoxy in their candidates—running in New York City is not the same as running in Nebraska. And the party has to exorcise itself of people like Andrew Cuomo. Plus, the administration has upped the cruelty quotient by denying retirement benefits to longtime trans members of the Air Force, the FBI gets deployed to advance the Republicans redistricting, and avoiding the scam PACs preying on Democrats. show notes Tim's interview with Andry on Substack or YouTube Lis's book, "Any Given Tuesday" Stanford's Adam Bonica on Mothership Strategies Cook Political Report's 2026 House rankings Tim's playlist

Hey, y'all. I just had the unbelievable privilege of talking to Andre Hernandez-Ramero, the makeup artist and hairdresser that was let out finally from the El Salvador prison hell after we kidnapped him and sent him there for no reason. And we talked to. He was at his home in Venezuela. It was really moving. And I had the opportunity to write about it this morning in morning shots. If you don't get the Bullock morning newsletter, you should be getting that because Bill Crystal's doing gems in there every day. You can go to the Bullwark.com to sign up. And you can also watch on YouTube with subtitles. When we did the interview, we had a translator who's kind of paraphrasing. And so we were able to communicate and talk. And like I said, it was really moving. But it doesn't really work for an audio podcast. I'd wanted to put it on the end of the show. But the translation issues make it hard to do without subtitles.

So please go watch it. His bravery, his grace, his forbearance, it's just, it's like unbelievable. The idea that this guy gets out of this hell and is not filled with rage and anger like you would expect. Instead, he was joyful and thanking God and telling us that we should have empathy for Trump and the people that did this. It's just truly, he's remarkable. So anyway, check that out. You can take a look at my newsletter on this topic this morning. And up next run to get into some politics with my old friend.

Smith. So stick around for that. Hello, welcome to the Bullwark podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. I am so happy to welcome back a Democratic strategist, author of the book Any Given Tuesday, a political love story. She was Senior Communications Advisor for Pete Buttigieg in 2020. She was my foil in the 2012 presidential campaign and she now is consulting for a wide array of democratic up-and-comers. It's Liz Smith. What's up, girl? What's up, Tim? Good to see you again. It's good to see you. We got a lot to talk about your helping a lot of good candidates.

I want to get to some tangible advice for listeners who want to know how to help campaigns and what they shouldn't do because there was this big story about scummy fundraising behavior among scam packs on the left. So we'll stay for that at the end if you get bored of me and Liz, but you want that advice. you can scroll to the end. But we've got to do news first. Tangible advice is my middle name, Tim. Yeah, that's right.

Slander and tangible advice. Those are your two main areas that you excel in. But, you know, we've got to do the news first. And I guess this is a news item that we're going to start with. You know, a lot of things are happening in the immigration space. In the open, I talked about the interview I did with Andre, after he got out of Saccat. And, you know, the Trump administration is looking to round up even more people as part of their mass deportation. plan and they're calling in some new agents.

Here is one of them. It's Fox News, Jesse Waters, talking to Dean Cain. So now I've spoken with some officials over at ICE, and I will be sworn in as an ICE agent, ASAP. So they'll have 80,000 and one recruits for their 10,000 positions. Well, they can't have a better guy than Dean Kane. Are you going to be hopping out of ICE fans and apprehending guys? I will do whatever Director Lyons wants me to do.

if that's what it takes absolutely you have to fucking laugh dean kane superman from 30 years ago is going to be getting in the back of unmarked vans covering his face and nabbing old ladies sitting outside of home depot i guess that's what we're out i felt my first reaction to this was shame um personal or for the nation well a little bit for the nation but first personal and i just need to make a confession i need to get something off my chest. I, when I was about nine or ten years old, I had a Dean Cain poster on the wall of my bedroom. Was he shirtless or was he in a Superman? I think it was in Superman. It was, that was the peak of his career. And he was smoking hot. And he had this sort of nice boy

image, had gone to Princeton and mostly was smoking hot. So I do cringe whenever I see him in the news again. But the second reaction I had is I had just read to that people who are now getting hired by ICE, get $100,000 signing bonuses. And given that we haven't seen Dean Canaan like anything in years, I think he likely took it, not just a virtue signal to the right, because he need a little cash. Yeah, that could be. Though you think he could do okay, like on the villages speaking tour or whatever, but, you know, I don't know.

He's probably got a big house. Air conditioning is energy costs are going up. Things don't pay for themselves these days. The poster reveals interesting because Tyler, My husband, we've had some poster discussions recently because Jude Law was living in New Orleans for a few months. And we were thinking we might bump into them. You know, we had a bunch of friends who had been bumping into him, small town. And when I was sharing this with his father, my father-in-law, he revealed to me that Tyler had a Jude law poster on his wall.

And that was maybe one of the first indicators that maybe the sexuality was going a different direction. And I was so excited to tell Jude about that. And so now I'm just dying to either meet Dean or Jude so I can share these embarrassing poster stories. Yeah, mine's a slightly more embarrassing, though. Yeah, I think. Just because of the way Dean's aged. Did you have any other poster?

Were there any others? Do you remember? Yeah. Brad Pitt had a starring role for a while. Russell Crowe. Russell Crow is my ultimate one. Gladiator? Russell Crow?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. That era could not get enough of him. I'm still into Russell Crow. I'm still into him. That was a sport poster man. Jaylon Rose for me. Okay.

I brought our thoughts on the ice stuff, the immigration stuff. There was this thing that I was referencing is they're calling Project Trojan Horse. These guys like really love cosplay and cops and robbers, you know, cash and and Christy Noem. They're like putting on costumes. And they have this thing called Project Trojan Horse. They get a bunch of guys in the back of a U-Haul or something. And then they put on their masks and then they drive up to the Home Depot and then they jump out and they grab the guys who are just there trying to do day labor. And, you know, it feels kind of un-American to me.

And I know that we're after the election. There was a lot of chatter about how Dems handle the stuff that have been kind of a losing issue for them. I don't know. Where are you at both on the kind of principle and politics of this topic right now? Yeah, it's a losing issue for Democrats, but it does not need to be. I mean, I feel like I've been screaming this from the rooftops forever. And I've talked about it with you on your podcast. You know, I worked on Tom Swazzy's special election in New York last cycle.

And the top issue was immigration. and he found a way to jujitsu it, go on the offense on it, and say, I'm the one who wants reasonable immigration reform. I'll take asylum, tightening up asylum requirements. You know what, if you want to build a little wall, I'll take a little wall. I'm not thrilled about it, but that's what compromises about. And his opponent was very much like my way or the highway, went with Donald Trump on, you know, killing the bipartisan bill. But I saw there that there is a way to talk about this. And on the ice rate specifically, there is a an angle that I would love to see more Democrats take, which is that the Trump administration

says that all of this stuff makes us safer. It does not. Having law enforcement in these masks jump out of unmarked vans and round people up, so does fear, and it soes distrust and law enforcement writ large. And if immigrant communities don't trust law enforcement, they're not going to report crimes. They're not going to help solve crimes. So you will thus have more crime. And that is a bad thing. And that's why they're not a ton of issues right now where you'd say law enforcement lines up with Democrats. But on the whole, law enforcement does line up

with Democrats on these issues. That, you know, having these, like, masked robbers, like cowboys running around with guns in their communities and arresting people makes us less safe. That trying to have police officers serve as federal immigration enforcement officials is bad, takes them off the beat, also makes it less likely for immigrant communities to work with them. So we should adopt the language of law enforcement on this and say,

hey, this is not making us more safe. And we should get rid of violent criminals. Don't get me wrong. But this is not what that is. Speaking of touchy issues for the Democrats that are in the news, this Reuters report yesterday, fucking boiling my blood. So the trans military ban has gone into effect. Sometimes it's kind of hard to follow this stuff. You don't keep you out to do because they like announce it. And it's like, did it really? It's in the courts. Did it really happen? It's in effect now. The Reuter story is this, though. The U.S. Air Force is denying early retirement to all transgender service members, even if they have between over 15 years of service.

So that means they're going to get kicked out with no retirement benefits, nothing. No thank you for your service. Goodbye. Crazy. Let's just get your take on the merits of it, and then we'll talk about how Dems handle the issue. So I don't think this is a particularly thorny one. This is one issue where, you know, in recent years, we've actually. seen attitudes backslide on trans issues. I think in part because of how Democrats have

mishandled the issue. But one area where majority of Americans are sort of on the more progressive liberal side is on trans people serving in the military. Put aside the public opinion, though. This is a policy that is just borne out of cruelty. And it breaks the trust that we have with people who say, I'm going to go serve our country. It serves literally no purpose to do something like this. And I think that Democrats should call it out. And it's one where we'll be on farm ground. And I think a lot of people understand that if someone volunteers to put their life on the line,

to serve their country, that we should, if they serve honorably, that they should be able to retire with dignity. So I think this is where you get into, and you're kind of in the advice business, struck to do a bunch of different types of Democrats. And obviously, some of them have different views on all this, some of them have different constituencies, you know, but we come out of the last election because of like this ad that Trump spent tens of millions of dollars on talking about how Kamala wanted us to pay for sex changes for trans inmates or whatever it was.

And you get then to this moment of, okay, ooh, like maybe we should just not like engage on this, right? And I know that I think that you and I both agree on this, that's just like wrong. Like you have to engage on stuff that people care about and talk about. you can say all you want to like this stuff only affects so few people and it's like sure like that's an okay thing to say and maybe you can get away with that in certain races but like broadly speaking if the public cares about something you got to be able to talk about it and engage on it so like what does your advice to folks I mean if trans military ban is an area that makes sense

to engage on should they be more aggressive about it like how do you kind of talk about the issue more broadly and not get into a situation where it becomes an anchor like it was last time I'm sure you not worry about that because the morality. I mean, it's not the easiest question to answer. What are you saying to candidates? Yeah, more broadly on this issue, I agree with you. Candidates need to engage. You can't just tell voters, this is a distraction.

So I'm not going to talk about it. That's like the biggest FU you can do to voters possible. And Democrats, and Republicans do it too, but we need to like eliminate distraction from our vocabulary because it basically tells voters that their concerns are, distractions, not important to us. Also, I hate that, like, we should talk about kitchen table issues instead, as if people aren't talking about transport stuff at the kitchen table, for example. It's like, people are talking about that. I don't know what you mean, but I guess if you

mean that we should only talk about pocketbook issues, okay, whatever, that's at least something, but this is something people are talking about. There are a range of opinions on these things in the Democratic Party. And what I would just advise is no matter where you stand, whether if you're someone who says, no, I don't think trans girls should play in girl sports, or if you're someone who says, yes, I think that they should have the opportunity to, maybe leave it to local governing bodies. But what I say is just to take a step back in whatever your position is and speak in the language of compassion and grace.

We need to show compassion to oftentimes the kids who are caught in the middle of a firestorm that they never asked to be a part of all while they're struggling with, you know, difficult questions about their identity. But we also want to need to show some grace to people who have questions about these issues, who maybe aren't quite where we are on these issues. And there are some Democrats, and there are some activists who, when someone says, I have questions about trans girls playing in girls' sports, to say, well, you're a bigot. There's no room for you in the party. When there are Democrats in our party, like Seth Moulton, I think, who said something like that, I don't know that I would have said it the way Seth Moulton did. There are a lot of Democrats who

said to him, you're a bigot. There's no room for you in our party. And if you're a voter, and you have questions about this and, you know, 80% of Americans are on the opposite side of this from Democrats. And you see Democrats saying to Seth Moulton, who I think has generally voted 100% the way that trans activists would want him to, then you're going to be like, well, they think I'm a bigot. They think I don't belong in this party. So why the hell would I vote for them? And so I think a lot of this is about tone and how we approach it versus just saying, and we can't just say that anyone who has questions or anyone who expresses doubts is automatically throwing trans people under the bus. I would add one thing to what you said,

and tell me if you disagree with this. Like, I feel like with regular voters also, and also with gay and lesbian voters, like with lefty activist types, would give you credibility as a candidate. I feel like, I'm fucking pissed at this outrage. Like, they're kicking somebody out of the military who served for 18 years. I'm not just putting out a statement about it. Like, I'm fucking pissed. And I'm going to rant about it and talk about how they are unpatriotic and it makes them bad and it is wrong.

It's fundamentally wrong. It's fundamentally un-American. And by saying that, assuming it's authentic, then when you are talking about other issues that are like a little bit more complicated where it's not as cut and dry, where you're expressing nuance, it's a lot harder to say, oh, that person's a bigot, right? Well, it's like, well, no, you know what I mean? Because they're being real and not like being touchy about everything. I don't know.

What do you make of that? Yeah, I agree. I mean, maybe I didn't come across as pissed as you do when you first asked me the question. But that was my version of pissed. I'm pissed. I think it is unpatriotic. We made a promise to these people, they're serving our country, and we should pay our obligations to them. And I think this is only born out of cruelty, sticking people in the eye. We need that relationship of trust between our country and the people who decide to serve it. So I totally believe with you. And more generally, right, I think that we need to say that, like, we need to live our own lives and give adults the freedom to live their own lives and make their own choices. And like, you know, You know, get the hell out of everyone's private lives. You sounded pissed. Oh, did I?

You sounded pissed. It wasn't about you. You sounded mad. You got me a little fired up. You know, I've got to flourish. I've got some flourishes with my cussing. But, you know, but you sounded pissed. Other things to be pissed about.

What is happening in Texas? I guess the FBI, so the FBI right now is firing people who they perceived to be mean to Mr. Trump in the past or who have friends with people who are mean to Mr. Trump. They're doing that. They're firing those people. getting them out, and then they're rededicating their resources now to trying to track down the Texas state representatives that have fled to Illinois, because that's what's going to keep the country safe. The redistricting stuff has gotten really insane. And, you know, we also have today, I guess the Republicans now trying to out the ante with Florida, I think Indiana, maybe is the other state looking about trying to potentially redistrict.

How do you navigate all this at this point, you know, if you're a Democrat, both. the Texas Democrats, but then kind of broader? Well, I think the Texas Democrats are handling it well. They're showing some fight that they're not just going to roll over and let this happen. And it's wise for Democrats to do that. It's wise. Like, let me just preface this. I hate gerrymandering.

I think that gerrymandering is one of a true evil in politics. It makes politics worse. It makes it so that, you know, it allows politicians to draw their lines so that they choose their voters rather than voters choosing politicians. It ensures that it gives incentive to have only the most extreme voices in the conversation. And so I am not a pro-derrymandering person.

However, however, if Texas Republicans are going to go out and do this and there are opportunities in other states for us to respond, in turn, I think we've sort of got to do it. And the problem is that there aren't a lot of states where we're going to have that option. California, with some work,

with some finagling, looks like it could be done before 2026, unlikely in a place like New York. Just because the law is the rule, like you got to do two sessions or whatever. There's a lot to entangle. Yeah. Again, it doesn't bring me joy to say this, but yes, if Republicans are going to do that, then we should fight back and do what Newsom is trying to do in California. But we should also, you know, understand that there's a reason why they're doing this.

They're pretty worried about the midterms. They're pretty worried that they're going to lose. the house. And why are they worried? Because they're pushing through stuff like the big, beautiful bill that is like a massive handout to rich people paid for by taking away health care from, you know, poor people and sick kids. And we should make sure that while we're fighting that redistricting fight, we're actually really talking about the reasons why they're doing this and why they're feeling vulnerable because, you know, Trump's tariffs and economic policy starting to hurt the economy. They pass this one beautiful bill. I just don't want it to be Democrats

out there talking too much about redistricting and gerrymandering because most people think gerrymandering is pretty icky or don't even know what it is or don't even know what it is right it's a very insider thing to the people who know what it is there's i don't think most people are like hell yeah let's gerrymandering you know except for sickos on twitter but i think it's a necessary thing to do and democrats as we know the base is really out for blood they want to see fighting There is that Axio's story recently that had members of Congress saying that when they'd go back home for meetings that their constituents would be like suggesting that they get shot and things like that. That's what they wanted to see. They wanted to see blood drawn for this fight.

So, you know, Texas Democrats fleeing the state to stop this from happening seems like we all know how this one's going to end. Are you suggesting that some false flag attacks Democrats do on themselves, you know, where they get bloodied? Were they, you know, a Jesse Smollett? Are you suggesting a Jesse Smollett type idea? I am not suggesting this. No, and I think that the voters are actually suggesting real life that you go out and you get shot to show how much you care. But it is a good sign.

Democrats are showing fight and, you know, what Newsom is doing in California shows that Republicans can't do these things without consequences. Is the California thing really possible, do you think? And you said we kind of know how this ends in Texas. Do we know how it ends in California? I worry a little bit that you get to a place where Texas and Florida to fucking jam it through, but a couple of goody-to-shoes in the California legislature or whatever

prevent California from doing it. And they really do, you know, kind of squeeze out seven, eight, nine more seats, Republicans. Is that a possible outcome? I mean, yeah, because there are a number of steps that they have to take in California. It's not like a given, but they're trying. And I've heard from people in this state that they feel like it's very possible. that they can do it. Yeah.

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Tala Rico. Okay, I've been doing it right. I was with Beto last night. We'll talk about that in a sec. And I feel like he pronounced it wrong or someone else pronounced it wrong. Then it had me self-conscious. Anyway, Tala Rico. Were you at a furry convention?

Is Beto a furry? No, remember there was that fake news back in 2019? I think it was pushed by the Bernie Bros, that he was like a furry. It became a whole internet meme thing. Oh, I missed that one. Beto is not a furry. There's so much rude stuff about Beto that was put out back then. People had Beto derangement syndrome in 2020.

I mean, I worked for Pete in 2020. Don't talk to me about anyone else derangement syndrome. No, I don't know. Some of the Pete people had bad O'Drangement syndrome. You know, I feel like everybody should have been on the same. I don't think they did. You don't think so? Okay.

Anyway, James Talariko, we'll rehash 2019 internet politics another time. What's your vibe been on that guy? I don't know. You know, he does the Rogan. He's doing the Liz Smith strategy, which is now conventional wisdom and democratic politics, that people should go everywhere, was something that you were saying, you know, seven years ago when we were both younger and prettier. and the childless, you were saying that.

And now they're all doing it. They're all like, you know what we should do is do interviews with more people. Huh, that's interesting. Liz was on that one. So he does Rogan. I have to be candid. I've not watched the full three hours, but what I've watched, he did pretty well. I think he's been doing pretty good talking about this redistricting stuff.

He's been on our YouTube. What do you make of him and sort of that movement down there? So full disclosure, I myself have done. work for James Talarico. Well, you've done work for everybody. Do we have to do full disclosure anymore? Just assume if Liz is talking about a Democratic politician who's good that she's done work for them. There are a few exceptions, but yes, I agree. So, and but he first came onto my radar in 2021. And as you know, I've had this thing since working for Pete where I'm just constant, I know that there are more Pete's out there. I know that there's more untapped

talent that it's like not the people you see on the Sunday shows, not the people that you see on cable news and that we just need to look for them. And someone actually called me in 2021. It was like a media consultant and said, you got to check out this guy, James Salarico. I checked him out. I was like, damn, this guy's a real deal and continue to follow him. And what's been interesting is he's a state rep in Texas, but has built up a massive TikTok following. And his videos are not like, defund the police, like, you know, saying the most maximalist lefty stuff. A lot of it is him. talking about issues, you know, facing the state of Texas in terms of faith.

You know, he's in seminary school right now, educating, training to be a minister. And so he does that. And it's so fresh. It's so refreshing the way he talks about it. And he frames things in values, in his faith, in a way that has a cross-cutting, cross-partisan appeal. And that's why Joe Rogan actually reached out to him. Someone showed him one of the videos of Talarico talking about. the Ten Commandments and he was like holy crap like I want this guy in my show so is that true

that's really what happened yeah yeah that's really what happened they sent an email to like his campaign inbox info at james tellericcio dot com and it's like hello would you like to be on joe rogan's show like can you imagine this is why I read the info at the bulwark emails because every once in a while you have a good one so just keep them short out there the listeners you know it isn't good you know if I open it and it's a short novella I don't usually read those but I think he and, like Pete, has a very, like, sort of hypnotic, calming way of talking. I mentioned he leaves in his faith and values a lot. And he understands the power of telling a story, right?

A lot of Democrats, when they're talking about issues, it's policies, it's bullet points, it's 10 point plans, it's this. James Taylorico paints a story where you have a good guy, a bad guy, you know, universal values are represented in it. And his method of communicating is one that I think, and I'm going to have more Democrat study. But it's also very different from what you hear from a lot of people. You know, it's a very different model from what you hear from like a Beto in Texas, from a Julian Castro from a Jasmine Crockett. We've sunk a lot of money into Texas and trying to win statewide.

It hasn't been working. And maybe we need to go into a completely different direction and put up someone like James Salarico who can go and speak to different communities in a different language and really go everywhere. Even though he is, you know, a Democrat, he reads a little bit, you know, he reads a little bit different. And I think we should just, in general, try to find more interesting different candidates. So the sentence was just standing there. You're like, he reads. And I was like, I don't know if that's that differentiating. He reads all the other. Is he different, though? So I guess

this is my question. I don't know. And Beto and I were talking about this last night. I don't think I'm betraying any confidences because I say this all the time, which is just like. Like, I think the Democrats need to figure out a way to compete in Texas. I don't, it's not crazy, but it wasn't that far away from winning in 2018. They backslid a little bit last time at the whole country backslid. And if there's going to be a time where you could get a surprise win, it kind of feels like the first midterm of Trump's second presidency would be the time, you know, for like just by the nature of how midterms work and and backsliding and who knows how time with the economy. But I look at him and I'm like, isn't he just a lib that is also a pastor? And that's fine. And just full disclosure, everybody knows it's like, I love that. And I love the fact that he is so real and him and passionate. And there's something to be said for that, like, for voters just looking for somebody that they can trust. Like in Texas, do you maybe need somebody that has cultural, like actual issues issue differentiation from the party?

Yeah. And, you know, Beto ran a really good campaign in 2018, as you mentioned. And it was one, he went everywhere. He went to small route red counties. He's still going everywhere. Yeah, didn't just campaign in, like, you know, Dallas, Houston, typical Democratic areas. And he struggled in 2022, right? Because that was after he'd gone out and said, hell, yeah, we're going to take your AR-15s and whatever other stuff. You know, people took a lot of positions in 2020. Let's put it that way. And so I think with Tala Rico, you know, we'll see, you know, look in more at his positions, all of that. I guess taking them aside, like, let's not.

There are a lot of good people that run in Texas. So, like, without talking about, like, just as a general matter in red, like, and even broughting out to red states more broadly, I'd Dan Osborne on last Friday, I guess, that even he's, like, focusing more on the economic populism. David Jolly is a never Trumper running in Florida. None of these people, like, are, I don't know, like, for example, John Bell Edwards, when he won in Louisiana, it was like, I'm pro-life. Like, we think we should ban abortion at eight weeks.

Whatever you think about that position, like, he had. a tangible issue differentiation for the Democrats on a cultural issue. None of these other people really do. Is that needed, do you think, or not? I don't, I'm open to hearing both ideas. I think we should encourage hadrodoxy and the Democratic Party. And I think we can draw a direct line from when, you know, Democrats and Democratic campaigns got super nationalized to now and how we've really just gotten killed in all of these red states. I think back to 20, 2017, when Tom Perez was campaigning for a mayoral candidate in Nebraska. And he gets lit up by NARAL and these groups because the mayoral candidate in Nebraska

is personally pro-life or pro-life. And they're saying, you know, we're not going to fund you anymore. This is a disgrace to democratic values, all that. And that was when we, after that was when we sort of started to see that then choice groups, gun groups, climate groups, are basically saying that the only candidates we're going to support, the only way we're going to support these democratic organizations is if they support the maximalist positions on all of these issues. And that makes it really, really hard to get elected in Louisiana, to get elected in West Virginia, to get elected in South Dakota, to get elected in Texas.

And yes, so we need to give people some space. And an example that I use in my book, any given Tuesday that you mentioned at the beginning. Available now at online retailers everywhere. Well, it's a really good example. So I talk about how in 2011 I went and I did debate prep and media prep and helped out with communications for Earl Ray Tomlin, the governor of West Virginia. He ran, he was endorsed by NRA, he was endorsed by Right to Life, he was endorsed by Chamber of Commerce.

But when he was elected and he was in office, a 20-week abortion ban came to his death, and he vetoed it because he said it had, you know, it would have violated the state's constitution. Now, a lot of Democrats would have said, you know, you can't support this guy. He's endorsed by the NRA and right to life. But now, flash forward, he's term limited. A Republican takes office. What does the Republican do?

He signs a born-alive bill, which basically portrays, you know, doctors as murderers. So it's like, okay, there's a different. between a pro-life Democrat and a pro-life Republican, and like, especially on everything else other than abortion, Democrats are going to be with you. So I would rather take a Democrat who can win in a state like South Dakota, West Virginia, Nebraska, Texas, who might not be with us on climate, who might not be with us on gun control, who might not be with us on abortion, because they're going to be a hell of a lot better than the Republicans on everything else. And like, as Democrats, we need to understand there is no one way to be a Democrat. A Democrat running for mayor of New York City

like Zoran Mamdani is going to be very different from an independent running in Nebraska like Dan Osborne. And we got to be okay with that. It needs to be. I don't know if it is going to be. It needs to be. All right, we're about to blow people's minds on this front. Oh, boy. We've hit my hobby horse. Yeah. You know, which is we need some mod pill Dems running for the Senate in these states. You've complained about the maximum less left several times already on the podcast. We're half hour in. I want everybody to just brace themselves for this.

One other thing that you and I agree on is that we want to have candidates that are fucking authentically themselves and show that they care about people. Yeah. Even if they don't always disagree with us. I think that's one thing that's really good about both Beto and James Talarico. One thing I like about both of them. Another person that maybe fits that bill, you just mentioned, Zoran. And when we're in the green room, you inform.

me that you're Zoran-pilled, which I think it's got to be quite surprising to some of your trolls online who I've called you like basically a Republican states, like a crypto, Republican, New York, moderate, shill. And so to explain, tell us more. My favorite is when I get like crypto or APEC. It's like I have never once in my life interacted with APEC or crypto. It's like, you know, come on, do your research. Well, I don't know. You have some questionable associations in your past, including this podcast. I don't know if you should encourage people to do their research about you. You know, you never know what I'll share it. I'm transparent about it. Like, like you, I wrote about all this stuff in a book. Like, I don't shy away from it.

I embrace my mistakes and my flaws. But to this, yeah, I was really torn up about how to vote in that mayoral election. I knew I was not going to rank Andrew Cuomo. You know, I worked for Andrew Cuomo before. I wrote about him in my book. I think that he embodied sort of the worst of American politics, which is just a relentless desire to accumulate power, no matter the toll it took on anyone else. And I found that when I worked for him and that when other people worked out for him, he brought out the worst in people. And what we want, what I want from politicians and our elected leaders are people who bring out the best in us.

And so he was out. You've been so soft now that you're a mom. I know. I sort of have. It's crazy. I sort of have. We do. We're both such soft. Now, what happened to us, Liz? Well, because I think I want my son to see positive role models and especially positive male role models in politics.

If I'm working in this industry, I don't want him to see me working for people who are toxic bullies and people who are clearly bad role models for him. Okay, put that aside. So I knew that, but then I didn't know who I was going to vote for other people. And it was a tough feel. Zellner Myrie was standing right there, just waiting for you to rank him first. I did. You didn't let me finish. Wait, well, wait.

You didn't let me finish. So the New York Times came out with this editorial after saying they weren't going to weigh in on the race, saying that elections are choices. And you either have to rank Cuomo or rank Zoran or, you know, your vote doesn't count. And you can't rank Zora. You have to rank Andrew Cuomo. And I'm like, what the fuck, man? This is a paper that called for his resignation multiple times, called him out on everything. And now you're saying, like, we have to vote for Andrew Cuomo and we have to make this choice.

And that day I was like, you know what? I'm going to take their advice. I am going to rank Zoran Mamdani. And I ended up, I ranked Zellner first because I thought he ran like a good campaign. He should have gotten more attention. I did Brad Lander second. And then I did Zoran third. And because I liked the campaign in Zoran did.

I thought that he was really incredible, lights out impressive in these debates. I liked his general style. I think that he was, he is, I think, a much more effective leftist than like an AOC or Bernie Sanders. Because he doesn't do that annoying, scoldy, preachy thing where if you're not with me, you're a tool of the corporations, you're a Republican, you're this. He is more of an inclusive type of socialist, I would say. He has less of that, like, populist anger. And I also think some of his policies, like free buses are intriguing and maybe something that we should test out. here in New York. And behind the scenes, I'd heard that he's a thoughtful person. He's willing to

engage with people with different ideas. So I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. And like, for me, my biggest thing in politics right now is we need new voices. And we need to sort of burn down the establishment. The establishment of the Democratic Party, of course, that means different things to different people. But the leadership in our party is bad. And it's gotten us to this place. And we need to like exercise ourselves of the demons of people like Andrew Cuomo if we are going to be a, you know, successful party going forward. You love New York, though. You love New York.

You're a New York post tabloid reader. You love this. You care about it. You've worked for multiple New York City officials. You know, I just, some people, you move into a place and whatever, a lot of New York transplants. That's not you. Like, you're a New Yorker.

So is there not a little, is there any of you that's like, oh, I'm a little nervous. I don't know. Well, I'm a little nervous about Zoron. Yeah. I'm specifically nervous about the public safety piece. that was, that's my top issue is public safety and disorder. You know, not going to get into it on this, but had a number of like very unfortunate and uncomfortable interactions over the past six months. That made me very worried about public safety and order in the city. And I want to make sure that

when he goes in, that he does deliver on his promise of not believing in defunding the police and understanding that public safety is really important. That's by far. the thing that worries me the most. Yeah. The thing that worries me the most about that is it might be somewhat out of his hands. And you saw this in San Francisco where like the cops kind of felt like

the politicians didn't have their back. So they kind of stopped doing as much. I kind of understand the police perspective. I have a couple cop friends in the Bay that I understood their perspective. I also, you know, you need to do your job. You know, you've seen that turnaround in San Francisco. One of your other clients, Daniel Lurrie is doing a great job as mayor of San San Francisco.

So like that would be the thing that would worry me as actually even a little bit more than his policies, right? that there's a trust. Like, he's got to focus on trust, you know? Exactly. And your relationship with NYPD can, like, make or break your mayoralty. And we saw that early on with Bill de Blasio when he showed up to a cop's funeral and all the cops like turned their backs on him.

And it was a horrible visual, but it continued throughout. So I am hoping he's doing a lot of those meetings behind the scenes because you're right. It's not just about the policies. It's that. And we did see in a number of big cities policing slowdowns because. police officers didn't feel like the people in power had their back. Also, you know, they felt like the prosecutors, you know, if you arrest someone, Chesa Boudin and San Francisco wasn't going to prosecute them. So what's the point? What's the point?

We kind of covered this just really quick. You know, you have clients you're giving this advice too for Dems. We're still in August recess. It feels like we're still in August recess because they left early because they're scared about Epstein. So they have the longest August recess ever. What issues should beat Dems be talking about right now? Like are you like, fuck it, let's roll with this Epstein cover up. It should be all big beautiful bill stuff. Economy sucks. Like any thoughts on how the Dems should be leveraging the recess?

Well, I think the three of them sort of interrelate. But really, I mean, I would really go out and gin up energy and attention around the big beautiful bill. That's the one that I think people will most likely vote on. And, you know, we're seeing these town halls. Like there's a town hall. and I think it was in Nebraska the other day. There's a Nebraska. Yeah, we played a clip from it. Like 750 people showed up and just like annihilated this dude.

And so Democrats should go out there, you know, make clear what's happening there. They should organize to make sure that when there are these town halls, that people are going to them and showing up and voicing their discontent. I also like what the D-TCCC is doing. They're doing this like people's town halls where in these red districts where the Republican members of Congress, aren't doing town halls. They're sending Democrats in to do it. And it basically is like, one, it'll get coverage because there's sort of a freak show element to it. You know, that doesn't happen every day. But two, it's like basically calling these guys, what's the word I could use? It's like calling them out for pussies. We can say that again, Liz. We can say it. We can say

the R&P word again. The rich bankers told us Trump won and we're now free. Well, you can, but I'm going to say for being weaklings. And we're, and we, know that masculinity is very important for all these guys. So I think it's really important, and we're going to have to keep doing this, because you and I know the consequences of this, and sometimes there is this idea among people who follow the news more. You certainly follow it more than I do, but I follow it more than 90% of people do. And there's this idea that because we understand these things that everyone else does, but if you look at the polling, like, I don't know, a lot of voters aren't that tuned in. And so we've got to be pretty relentless about

And it is as clean an argument as we can get. And it undermines Donald Trump's core strength, right? That he was a different type of Republican. He's not a Mitt Romney, Paul Ryan Republican. He's someone who wants to protect entitlements and help the regular man. And this is a handout, massive tax cap for rich people that will be paid for by ripping away health care for poor people and sick kids. Simple. But we got to hammer that every day of the week.

We're on that time. Two rampant fire questions. There was a Daily Mail story. Daily Mail has well-placed sources that Steve Bannon has plotting a 2028 run. Bannon's reply was he's supporting Trump in 2028? What do you think about Bannon or Trump, 28? Pass. Pass? Pass? You got nothing? I mean...

What is happening with these people? This is the world. This is our real life, Liz. You know, you're an artist young, a striver in the 90s who cared about American democracy and loved it and watched the war room with James Carvel. And now we've got a racist podcast host and a guy trying to end the democracy. And that's why it's a hard pass for me. I want no part of any of it. I think all of the rest is unsaid. What do you want me to do?

Go through all the greatest hits that you've gone through 3,000 times on this podcast about each of those men. I do think, you know, Steve Bannon is a little bit of a performance artist here. and I don't know how tongue-in-cheek the 20-28 thing is, but I would actually be a little bit concerned that it's not totally tongue-in-cheek, as we saw after, you know, the 2020 election. But I don't know. I would maybe be into a Trump-Bannon primary.

There we go. There was a take. It took you a minute to come around to take. A ban-in-vance primary. That would be something to be very good for this podcast. I'll tell you. Not bad for the country, good for the podcast. I hope it doesn't happen because I would rather things good

happen to the country. But if we're stuck with it, that's true. Okay, really quick also, did Jeffrey Epstein kill himself, do you think? I do, but I don't know. A hundred percent. I do tend to think he did. He had plenty of reasons, too. But more important than whether he killed himself or not is that we get to see the files under, and we get full transparency on who all of his clients were what Donald Trump's involvement was. And I really think it's important that these people who for years called for releasing these files and being fully transparent that they actually deliver on that promise. I got to say one of my favorite moments of the podcast recently when I asked Chris Murphy

that question. And he did like the length of the pause. You've seen the video of Ross doubt that asking Peter Thiel if he thinks humanity should exist. And Peter Thiel pauses for like 20 seconds. Chris Murphy did that on that. He was like, and he just was like, I don't know. I'm like, I love that.

I love that that's where we're at right now. Because I don't know. It's the right answer, I think. Who knows? Who the fuck now? As T's at the beginning, the final topic. This group, I don't know anything about these people. So it's not personal.

Group called Mothership, I guess. There's a group of packs. If you're a listener of this, my guess is you're probably getting text and emails from some of these packs. The one name, there's a bunch of them. One of the names that jumped out of me that I see all the time is End Citizens United. I'm like, what is that?

Who is that? And it's his group. They're texting resistance people asking them to chip in eight bucks to save democracy. Since 2018, according to this article, they had raised $678 million, $678 million. 11 million went to candidates, campaigns, or national party committees. The rest went to just the infrastructure of whatever, funding all these fake packs. act blue is starting to crack down on this which is good this is bad this sucks people want to feel like they're doing something i get you know what i mean and so they're kind of praying on people who want to feel like they're doing something which is the right instinct so i don't know if you have any thoughts on that topic or as we said the topic like what what is an actual useful thing for folks to do yeah dude it's fucked up it's fucked up um and if you dig into the numbers if someone gives a hundred dollars only one dollar 60 cents of that would actually go to a canada at it. And I think that our party organs and leaders in the party need to just straight up call

this out and say, do not give to these groups. These groups are scam packs and they're praying on you. And the second thing, and I've seen something floating around on this, is that there's a proposal to have Act Blue, have sort of regulations for participating. It feels like this is happening, I think. Seems like this is going to happen. Yeah. And where you, you, basically de-platform. But more employingly than that, and I know when I worked for Pete, we saw a lot of some people doing this, and we just would directly call them out

when they'd do that. But we need to more directly call them out. Like using his name, funding on his name for fake thing. And we'd say, don't give to this. This is that. I know on Comless Harris's campaign, they did that as well. I think on Federman's campaign, they did that as well. But we need to directly call them out. And we should just generally tell people,

what I tell my friends and like earmuffs for like the fundraisers for my various clients, Don't give money over time's message. And two is give money directly to candidates. Don't, if it's a group you've never heard of, don't get money to them. I think from the top down, we need to have more aggressive communications because that story was pretty second.

Yeah. Another is Democrat House candidates. Like, if you've heard of somebody, okay, whatever, you should, if you really like somebody, you can give money, that's fine. But if you've heard of them and you're not a sicko, like if they're a famous person, they're already doing well, right? Like the people, the candidates that need money are the frontline house candidates who are in some of these districts that are going to make the difference. So we'll raise, you know, have a couple of them on the pod so folks know, but that's, those lists are easy to find.

Right. Because most people don't know how to find like the cook political rankings. That's a good place to go, though. It's great. I love it. It's like my porn. But we need to like educate people and put that information out for people. Otherwise it's going to be hard.

and their money's just going to go to, you know, whoever's running against Marjorie Taylor Green. I'll take it on as a project, but you can literally just Google, cook political, competitive races and look at the list. They got it right there. It's Google.com, really easy to do. Okay. That's it.

Unless you have a parent corner, do you have anything you want to say? Any exciting news from the parenting front? Any life lessons? Any interesting things that have happened? Do you want to share? It's okay if not. That I worked in this business for a long time. You know, I don't get bossed around easily,

but my God, my almost two-year-old can boss me into doing anything. I bet. Is he saying anything yet? What's our recent words? Yesterday we had ladder. You know, you talk about fire trucks, but it's a lot of mama sit there. Mama go night, night there. Ice cream.

Cookie too salty. Cookie too spicy. I love you getting bossed around. This is great. Oh, my God. He's a little tyrant. And I feel like I'm getting a taste of my own medicine. Indeed.

That's the latest. Well deserved. All right. That's Liz Smith. She'll be back again soon. Appreciate you all for listening. Have a wonderful August weekend. I hope you can enjoy some sunshine, maybe a little pool, maybe a little glass of rosé.

And we'll see you back here Monday with Bill Crystal. Peace. Bye, Liz. Bye, Tim. I'm over to clouds now. All around me Reach in maximum speed Ooh

Ooh Superdard Superman Superman Superman The Bullwark podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.