The Bulwark Podcast - Live from Philadelphia (Again)

Episode Date: October 18, 2024

The Bulwark kicked off its weekend 'Swing State Swing" in the City of Brotherly Love Thursday before a packed house. George Conway, Sarah Matthews, and Tim talked about psychopaths, narcissists, and how voters need to understand that if Trump didn't even care what happened to his VP on Jan 6, he certainly doesn't care about them. George Conway and Sarah Matthews join Tim Miller.

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Hi. Claudia Conway's father. Yeah. Among other things. It's my guest today, you might have heard of him, George Conway. Hi. Claudia Conway's father. Yeah. Among other things. It's her birthday today, by the way. Happy birthday, Claudia. Happy birthday, Paul. I've been trying to hire her.

I've been trying to hire her every time you get on. All right, George, you sent so many good tweets, but you sent one good one that I want to read here. Just one. Because it's so good. You called Donald Trump stupid, as well as being ill-tempered, a despicable human being. No, I didn't do that. And a narcissist.

I would never say that. That was not you? That was Mitch McConnell. Oh, that was Mitch McConnell. Yeah. That's interesting. Mitch McConnell, yeah. The producer gave me the wrong notes.

I remember how he, yeah, I remember how he voted to remove the guy and make sure he never became president. Convicted? Oh no, he didn't do that. Is that what happened? No. But that's what he felt about the guy. Yeah, Mitch McConnell was out today with a statement about this. He said, well, JD Vance said worse.

Yeah, no, that's right. I swear to God, that was his statement. Yeah, what happened was this AP guy, Tackett, wrote a bio of McConnell, and McConnell's quoted as saying all these things. He doesn't deny saying them, and he just says, well, other people have said worse. And I thought, I came up with the idea that maybe what they should do, the Harris campaign for the next,

I don't know, we could have October Madness where we take all the quotes about things that people have said about Trump, like Tillerson, he's a moron, and we could have like, you know, playoffs to see who had the best vote about Trump I mean you have so many people come Kelly Mattis you've got you know you've got so many people who've said so many great and accurate things about Donald Trump and then they're gonna vote for him but I don't know you

know the other thing that he said I want to get to Mattis in a second you know the other thing that McConnell said that just had my blood boiling in this book didn't get it didn't get quite as much attention as despicable human being, because that's a pretty good quote. I mean, it's an insult to despicable human beings, but yeah. That's true.

He was like, he was saying to a friend, I guess it's his self notes, I guess he has a voice memo. He thinks very highly of himself. He's like, he's got a memoir, a life memoir that he voice memos. That must be the most scintillating thing to listen to. Yeah. Let's put those to bed. I mean, Taylor Swift, look out. Yeah's memoirs. That must be the most scintillating thing to listen to. Yeah.

Let's put those to bed. I mean, Taylor Swift, look out. Yeah, play those and you're going to sleep. And he said that it was clear that there were a bunch of things that Donald Trump did that were indictable. And so he's excited to see what Merrick Garland is going to do. Yeah. And that confuses me a little bit because he voted against convicting him for the things

that he thought were indictable. I don't understand how that works. That's why he gave this weird, but not had some great aspects to it, speech. Immediately after the impeachment trial was gaveled to a close, he took the floor and he basically called Donald Trump a criminal. He says there is a criminal law. His position was because he was no longer president, he could no longer be convicted, which made no sense because the Constitution doesn't just say that removal is a sanction

for a conviction, but also barring from federal office. And he was impeached as president while he was president. And so that position really made no sense, but it was an excuse for him and his colleagues basically not to take any responsibility for it. They didn't want to be the ones who had the fingerprints on removing Trump from public life life and they were cowards. And then, but they thought, you know, obviously he's going to go away because

that's what all these malignant narcissists through history do, right? And here we are in Pennsylvania. What a catastrophic lack of judgment. You know, I'm not a fancy lawyer like you, but that argument never made a lot of sense to me. Because it's like, so if you're immune from everything that happens on your way out of office, that means you kind of get a free day of crime on your last day. Well, there's a pink cordon. On an inauguration day, you can just start gattin' people if you're the president. Oh, there's a pink cordon.

There's nothing you can do. There's media 24-7 now. Yeah, okay, got it. So it's no longer one day of crime on your day out. Every day, yeah. That's pretty dark. Okay. Well, while we're in darkness, I had Bob Woodward on the pod this morning for people here live yesterday for people listening. He was great, yeah.

So he did kind of, he did tell me one thing that kind of annoyed me a little bit. But you know, I've a lot of respect. You're easily annoyed though. I am. I have a lot of respect for Bob Woodward, so I didn't want to derail the podcast with my own issues. But he was like, yeah, I was asking him.

I said, oh, you had this great reveal where Mark Milley went up to you at a party. And he said Donald Trump's a fascist. He's done this dangerous thing to the country. It's a very important thing to say. I would have maybe said it, I don't know, publicly, instead of just a Bob Woodward at a party, but that's just me. And then I said, I noticed you mentioned in the book

that Jim Mannis was also at the party. So I'm wondering what he said to you. And Bob said, well, he didn't say anything to me then, but he emailed me three days ago telling me that everything that is in the book is right. And I was like, why is he emailing you? Does he not have access to Zoom? Is it FaceTime? Does he not have a phone?

I'm sure Nicole Wallace would have them on TV if he wants to do it. We could send Barry to his house. We could tape a video. I think you could walk in a 400 North cap and MSNBC, they'd put him right on if he was going to say that. See, you know, it's crazy. There's a lot of access. What's happening?

Well, what's happening with that, and I had this discussion with another former flag officer, US Army flag officer the other day, and they have this weird belief that former generals, retired generals should not express political opinions publicly. Hmm. Just in emails and at parties. Right, just in emails and at cocktail parties. To the most famous reporter in the world. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think part of the logic is, well, they're still technically commissioned because they're getting pensions and we don't want to. And it's like, nobody out there

is gonna make that distinction. And the other point about it is the idea that military officers in uniform should stay out of politics and not take political... Let's leave apart all the presidents we've had who were generals and the fact that fucking McClellan ran for president against Lincoln in the middle of the Civil War. Let's put all that history aside.

And that he was Secretary of Defense. Yeah. And yeah, Mattis was Secretary of Defense. Yeah, Mattis was Secretary of Defense, Kelly was Chief of Staff, both political appointees. It doesn't make sense because the purpose ofJ about it, is to make sure that there is civilian and constitutional control over the military. And here we're talking about a guy they know and they think is a fascist and they are criticizing privately

and in emails and at cocktail parties because they think he would use the military unconstitutionally to defeat his domestic enemies. I mean he says that. They know that. And these guys are, I mean the two groups of people who best understood what Trump was going to become were... Never Trump Podcasts, hoes. No, the two big groups were psychiatrists and psychologists,

mental health professionals, because they saw the personality disorders. I mean, you just, I mean, I like to wave these things around. You just check the boxes. The guy, you know, you mean, I like to wave these things around. You just check the boxes. The guy, you know, you only have to have three out of seven of the, of the, of the associate for the ones for sociopathy and he's like, seven for seven. He's like, you know, but, and the other group were,

were people whose professions depended upon a study and knowledge of history, which would include history professors, political science professors, comparative government professors, diplomats, and military types. And they saw this first. That's why in 2016, we saw these long lists of bipartisan former diplomats

and state department officials saying, this guy is dangerous because they saw the personality type. There was actually a third group, third group were abused spouses. I'm not joking. They saw like this guy, he's like my ex-husband and he's bad news.

And he's like worse than that. Melania hasn't gotten that message yet. But that's the whole thing about it, is these guys are in, they know better, and they are in a position to say it. And if they care about keeping the military out of politics, they need to say something to keep this man out of the White House, because that's basically. Oh yeah. sense. Basically, basically this guy, yeah, he wants civilian control over the military,

but he wants that civilian to be him and for his own purposes only and not for those of the cons, you know, of the United States of America, all of us and its constitution. Indeed. I want to get one other thing. Did I say too much there? No, it's really great. Keep going. I'll let you know. I got a hook right back here if you start getting going a little too long. I listen to that podcast you do with Sarah Longwell and sometimes you just jab, jab, jab. Is Sarah still there? I know. We get all these letters. You talk over Sarah too much. But that's because she asked me questions. But I have a legal question for you right now that's related to the Woodward book. The other thing that we've learned is that apparently, allegedly at least, he's having

secret calls with Vladimir Putin, up to seven. We don't exactly know. Susan Rice got very mad at me when I was like, would we know if that was happening? And she was like, I'm not allowed to say. And I was like, but really, would we know? And she's like, next question, Tim. I was like, yes, ma'am. I've seen all the Bourne movies and they have listened to all of them. I'm not allowed to say it. I was like, but really, would we know? And she's like, next question, Tim. I was like, yes, ma'am.

But anyway. I've seen all the Bourne movies and they have listened to all of them. They know, right? They would know. Okay, so assuming that's happening, there's some smart people out there, including Susan Rice, who are like,

this is a violation of the Logan Act. And that kind of seems like a fake act to me. So is that true? Is that a violation of the Logan Act? Should we jail him over this? It depends on what he's saying. If he's purporting to represent what the United States of America should be doing and would be doing under a Trump administration, I think that would...

Well, maybe they're talking about hotels on the Black Sea and maybe a building project on the Black Sea. I don't know. Maybe building a big wall, you know, I don't know. P. So I don't know. You could be talking about, you know. No, I mean, yeah, you have to wonder. And I, you know, one of these days, and we're all gonna be dead, but.

Like it'll be 60 or 70 years from now. Maybe you have kids who will get to see this all the archives of these intelligence agencies throughout the world today are gonna open up and we're gonna get somebody's gonna get to see what they thought of Donald Trump and how they thought they were manipulating him and could try to manipulate him and the transcripts of the calls are gonna be so stupid like people in the future are going to be like, why did they speak at a kindergarten level in 2024?

Could you imagine being the Russian translator trying to do it? Mm. Very good. Very strongly. I very strongly want Vladimir Putin to do nice things for me. All right, what else do we got for you? The psycho pack that you're doing, talk to us about that, anti-psychopath, psychopath pack.

You've been running some ads. Explain the pack, and then I want to talk about the ads. Look, I've been on this kick for five, six years now about basically the way you understand Donald Trump, and he becomes eminently predictable in a lot of ways, is by understanding the severe, easily, clearly defined personality disorders that he has that are listed.

And I was no expert in psychology. Now the shrinks tell me, oh, you explain it better than we do. But you know... Is that one of the signs of narcissistic personality disorder? No one has explained narcissistic personality order better than me. People, many people tell me this. Many people. Yeah. Trump has seven out of seven, George only has four, I've got three. Okay. Not a big deal. So, no, but you know, because I had no freaking clue about this.

And I'm wondering, you know, I was offered the job of head of the Civil Division of the United States Department of Justice, I'm an Assistant Attorney General. And then I'm watching this shit show as it proceeds in early 2017. I actually was going over to the Justice Department to help pick the people who were gonna work for me and then I realized I can't do this. Particularly after the appointment of the special counsel by Rob Rosenstein, Mueller, I thought like okay this I'm gonna join a department that this guy is going to be at war with for two years. And I decided not to do it.

But I kept puzzling about it. How, what the fuck is wrong with this guy? And I was reading and I'd read and I'd think. And finally I came across an article in of all places Rolling Stone and a very good writer named Alex Morris. She's great. She's great. She she basically said it was the title the algorithm does Donald Trump have narcissistic personality disorder. I'm reading like what's that and it has nine criteria and she went through the criteria and and it's like, oh, that's it.

He only cares about himself. He has no empathy. And all these things, he likes to brag falsely about his imagined achievements. I mean, check, check, check, check, check, check, check. And then I said, this is the key to understanding the guy. And so I started reading more and then I saw wait a minute he's also a sociopath. He lies, uses aliases. Remember how he used to call up the media in New York? John Baron. John

Miller. Did he name his kid after his alias? Yeah, he has. That's really fucking weird. And he has absolutely no remorse. The only time he ever expressed anything approaching remorse was when he said that he sort of apologized for the Billy Bush tape or what he said on there. And then two months later, after the election was over, he was saying, he literally told the New York Times, or he was telling the United States senators that the tape was fake. Okay, I mean, so this guy just checks all the boxes.

And it occurred to me as a lawyer, I kind of combined that with my understanding of the obligations of a president in Article II, which is the founders viewed the presidency as a fiduciary position. In the same, fiduciaries, I litigated that, I was a corporate lawyer, we did lots of litigation of corporate law in Delaware and it's all about,

the all it's issue is fiduciary duties. You have, as a CEO, you have an obligation to work into the best interests of the country, not just line your pockets, although they do both. I mean, not in the best interests of the company. And this was the ultimate fiduciary position. And the question is, if someone who cares only about themselves and only uses everyone else and all the instruments of power

around him to benefit himself, has no empathy, has no remorse, is incapable of telling you how could that person possibly be a fiduciary? And the answer is he couldn't. So I wrote this long 11,000 word article that was published like five years ago in like two weeks. And you know, I've been on that kick ever since because that's the way that Donald Trump makes sense only if you look at him through that prism. And I think that from- And the other point is that the people who have that-

We'll get to me in a minute. Don't worry. I'm not... I talk a lot. Yeah, yeah, you talk a lot. I'll take another bourbon and coke, though, when anybody gets a chance. No rush. The people who... The concept of narcissistic sociopathy,

which is also described in some... by this malignant narcissism, it's very closely related I mean that was a concept developed by a psychologist named Eric from whose family escaped Germany just before the onset of World War two and he wanted to try to explain the minds of Hitler's and Stalinins and all of these people. And it explains authoritarians. It explains that these personality characteristics are generally shared by authoritarians and cult leaders.

And here we are. It's important to bring in the Nazis, so I'm glad you added that last point. As we think about this. So, go back to psychopath, it was like- As we think about this fifth race. But on the psychopath fact thing, because I want to get to the ads.

I think the important political insight that was bred out of all of that, five years later, is how to bait him. And some of that is in the ads that you've been playing that I want to get to in one second. But first, the vice president's learned a little something about this. And just today, just a couple hours ago in Wisconsin, she had some protestors. And there's a very funny exchange that we're going to listen to now. And just today, just a couple hours ago in Wisconsin, she had some protesters and there was a very funny exchange that we're going to listen to now. Oh, you guys are at the wrong rally.

No, I think you meant to go to the smaller one down the street. That was amazing. So amazing. So amazing. What she said is, what she said is, I think that you guys should be at the smaller rally down the street. And the crowd really enjoyed that. And she used it to very good effect at the debate in a way that, frankly, none of us,

none of the 15 Trump primary opponents did in 16, that Hillary did it, and that Biden didn't. Biden did some other things well. But she's used kind of the insights from combating a narcissism better than I think any of his other opponents. Don't you agree? I absolutely agree with that. And that's something, again, that's part of the drums, the drums hours. I've been beating for so long. And last year, I mean, at a little conference

held by a competitor magazine. Oh, we don't have any competitors. It's all good. It's all love. No, I basically- Unless they're for Trump. Are they for Trump? No, no, no. As long as they're not for Trump, it's all good. As long as they're not for Trump, it's all good. The anti-Trump summit, I was basically saying, long as they're not for Trump, it's all good. It was the New Republic.

It was the anti-Trump summit. I was basically saying, you gotta needle the guy. Because he's like, you know, you remember the squirrel, the dogs in the movie Up? And whenever you'd say, whenever a character would say squirrel, they'd lose their shit and they'd be completely... That's Donald Trump when it comes to any form of criticism. And that's why, you know, we saw just like two weeks ago, he says, people are saying I fell into a trap at the debate.

There was no trap. I didn't fall in a trap. Oh, and he's falling right into the trap again. So, you know, once he hears a criticism, particularly if it is something, I mean, narcissists are very insecure, okay? They pretend to be the boldest and most courageous and the strongest and the most imperturbable people in the world, but they are driven by deep insecurity.

And he has deep insecurity about a lot of things. This is one. He's insecure about his, you know, whether he's... What? What? What? What? What?

What? That's another one. There's nothing you can say about it. He's insecure about so many things. And if you keep poking him about it, he will talk about that. When he should be talking about the things that I am sure this Susie Wiles and all these people

are telling him to talk about, you have to talk about immigration, you have to talk about economy, you have to talk about this. He can't help himself. And that was, you know, the four objects of psychopath were one to point out the personality disorders that Trump has two is to show Why they're dangers to the country three is to get the media to talk about it, which they're finally a little bit starting to do And the fourth was to trigger him into displaying these

Characteristics what I'm so grateful for now is the Democrats figured some of this out. And that's what they did. As soon as they switched candidates, you saw some of that needling. And they're ramping it up again. I think they did it for a while, just before the convention and after.

It worked. And now they're bringing it up again. And we've seen his behavior lately. It is getting worse because these people, generally narcissistic sociopaths, only get worse. Okay, and as the more that they face adversity and criticism, they become more detached from reality. And we saw that with the swaying back and forth.

We saw it when he's saying that all of Kamala's crowds, that first week when she became the presumptive nominee, they were all AI, cats, dogs. You know, he is saying crazy shit by the hour. And I think that the Harris campaign is going back to that attack, and I hope they do for the last couple of weeks of the campaign, because she's,

at least twice I've heard her say, he is increasingly unstable and unhinged. And I think that should be, I mean, I think you'll need a little positive, you know, you have to finish a campaign with a little positive note, which I think we saw a little of that yesterday. I thought that was just, I mean,

I don't know if you saw the event up in Washington Crossing where she really was putting forth a vision, you you know, we're not going to be a unified country in the sense that we're all going to be agreeing on everything, but we agree that we live in a democracy where we need to work together, we need to compromise, we need to discuss things rationally, and we need to support whoever wins an election. And you know, that's her positive message. She's gonna be present for all the people, but leading up to the next two weeks,

I think they really oughta hit hard. This is Cuckoo. Yeah, Cuckoo losing his marbles. All right, last topic. You only had a couple to begin with. I like the, well, are people familiar with these names? Natasha Stoynov, Amy Doris, Jessica Leeds. Do we know their names?

Yeah, not enough people. Why don't everybody give them a round of applause? They're in George's recent ads. And E. Jean. And E. Jean Carroll. Everybody's gonna know E. Jean, so I wasn't gonna make my point. I wanna play one of those ads now.

My name is Amy Doris. In 1997, I attended the US Open. We went to Donald Trump's VIP box. I went into the bathroom. When I came out, Trump was standing there. He was not waiting to go to the bathroom. He was waiting for me. He kind of grabbed me and tried to kiss me. He was touching me all over my body. I pushed him away. I could not move.

He just shoved his tongue in my mouth, started kissing me. It was just so forceful. It was not pleasant. It started kissing me. It was just, it was so forceful. It was not pleasant, it was not welcomed, it was not consensual. I literally used my teeth to push his tongue out of my mouth. It was violating and it was traumatic. I thought it was my fault. Seeing the Access Hollywood video made me realize

that Donald Trump is a serial sexual predator. He says he's going to protect women. He harms women. He has no respect for women. It is a danger to our society to put this man back in the White House. It's like, when will this stop? Anti-Psychopath Pack Inc. is responsible

for the content of this advertising. And here's the thing, I've been on this for a while and it pissed me off, honestly, during the first Trump administration, that I think that there was this conventional wisdom that sunk in when he won after the grab him by the, you know what, video. People were like, well, people don't care

about the sexual assaults anymore, so we're not gonna talk about it in the media. It was like my one real big media criticism from the first term, and I'm like, that's not true, because more information came out about some reservos, about Amy Doris and some of these as the administration went on, and they just didn't get the attention they deserved.

And I'm happy you're running those ads. So just talk to us a bit about those ads and what you're trying to get out there. Yeah, I mean, it was born of an idea. I tried in 2019, 2020, I was trying, I tried to organize, I tried to get a documentary film made of all the women. Because I thought, you know, after reading all about them, I thought that if you laid their stories back to back

and side by side, you know, there's just no question he did it, right? Because the two things that we learned during the Me Too episodes about what kind of brings, you know, a sexual assault or harassment situation often can be just two people in a room, and, you know, it's a swearing match. But the things that make, that prove these cases in a court of law or the court of public opinion or in the newspapers is, is there

a pattern because these, we now, we know these guys never do this just once. And the second is the contemporaneous testimony or statements of the people who heard the victim express shock and sorrow and anger and frustration soon after it happened. And so I thought it would be great to basically do a documentary that would do as many of the women as possible. The problem, I mean, and I had a guy interested in it, the guy who did the base, whose name escapes me, but remember he did the baseball one about the Bartman catch. Oh yeah, that was really good. Yeah. But he couldn't get funding for it because everybody

was terrified to do it. HBO wouldn't fund it. People, they just wouldn't, they couldn't fund it. And then it's, you know, that idea had always stuck with me and, you know, with Psycho Pack, I mean, this behavior, not just the sexual assault but the continual lying and maligning of his victim, E. Jean Carroll and the others, that, you know, it cost him 83 million additional dollars. All right. You know, because he kept lying about her. The punitive damages, I forget what they were, but it was like he just, he absolutely has no compunction.

You know, his lies were patently ridiculous. I never met her. Excuse me, there was a photograph. Okay. You know, he's accused of rape and his answer is, she's not my type. Yeah, so it occurred to me, like, let's just do testimonials. Let's just do as

many of them as we can and I wish we had more time and we did three of them. We couldn't do E. Jean because E. Jean has two appeals in the second circuit where she's got eighty eight point three million dollars riding on us so but we use some clips from her to do. I thought it was actually good that it was people that folks weren't as familiar with. Yeah, people they hadn't seen before and we tested those. Sarah's people tested those and they were very effective even among Trump voters and I wish I had you know 20 million more millions of dollars and you'd be watching you'd be you know you'll be

seeing it on Channel 6 here but you know, and I'm glad we did that. I wish we could do more. But every little, every little vote counts. So we appreciate it. Hometown boy, George Conway. Sorry about the Sixers. Never quite happens for the Sixers, you know, never quite get there. Poor Joe Ellen Bede.

But I really appreciate it. We'll be seeing you tomorrow. And up next, Sarah Matthews. Give it up for George. And we're back with Sarah Matthews. You guys might know Sarah Matthews. She worked in the Trump Administration. But that's okay. And we're back with Sarah Matthews. You guys might know Sarah Matthews. She worked in the Trump administration,

but that's okay, she was young. And still young. I joke, I was 25 when I resigned from the Trump White House. It was my frontal lobe had finally developed, okay. Cut me some slack. And you walked out on what day? A little day called January 6th. Yeah, you walked out on January 6th,

and you and Alyssa are like, we are leaving and Everybody's coming behind us and you turned around and who is there? Like Elaine Chao, but Yeah, I was like she kind of waffled on it too We're not counting the lane. Yeah, there weren't many I think I think we definitely all thought that there would be waves of people following us and sadly not the case. I do this every time we talk but I think it's important. Like that is crazy. That is crazy when you think about it. I mean you're 25 years old,

this is whatever, early 30s and Cassidy when she eventually comes forward, is about your age, is Mark Meadow's assistant. And everybody saw it. Everybody saw what happened. It was, there was no question about his role, or that it was his fault, or that he sat there watching TV while it happened. And at the end of the day, when there's an entire government full of people,

where there's an entire cabinet full of mostly men, besides Elaine Chao, and there's an entire cabinet of men, there's a chief of staff, and all these senior advisors around him, and at the end of the day it's just you and Alyssa and Cassidy. Isn't that just crazy? Isn't that crazy to you? Like why you? Have you thought about that? Do you think about that in bed at night ever? Why just me? Why not Mark Meadows? Why not Mick Mulvaney? Why not we could do the whole fucking list?

Yeah. I think that it's a conversation Alyssa, Cassidy and I have had often, and we all talk about our motivations of why we chose to speak out. And it boils down to, I think, because we are women. And none of us are fortunate enough to have children yet. Cassidy and I are both still single, so I need a husband first. But hey, boys, anybody out there will be hanging out afterwards. But but the three of us have spoke about how there will come a day when we will be lucky enough to have children

and we want to be able to look our children in the eyes and tell them that their moms did the right thing and stood up. Yeah. I joke, Alyssa said that to me when I interviewed Alyssa for the book and we were a little drunk, which is a key strategy if anybody want to do reporting for books in the future. But she got emotional, it was very emotional. We were like in our living room, it was very emotional on this topic, you know? And I felt, I feel the same way. And though it does kind of raise the next question, which is, a lot of these people have children, you know what I mean? And it's just just like, you knew all of them,

you worked with all of them. Like the disappointment on a personal level had to be pretty crushing. Yeah, and I can't speak to certain people's motivations, but I hold the most contempt, I think, for the Republican elected officials, because they're there to serve their constituents, and what do they do?

They're lying to them. Privately, they're saying all these things that I'm saying publicly and it's just unfortunate because they'd rather prioritize their own power than telling the American people the truth about the type of man that they know Donald Trump to be. Yeah and also because I'm just this was supposed to be one question but I'm riling myself up every time we did talk about this topic But it's like the other thing is all of them are fine This is the thing that drives me. I talked to Kinsinger about this You know like they are Congress people like they would be fine if they resigned They would want to be on boards people would have them their kids are grown and a lot of times their career

They've achieved things in their career. Like it was you guys actually that had more to lose. You know, like you had your career in front of you. You're 25, you know, and like so in some ways I think like it was more risky for you than it was for them. Yeah, no exactly. I think like I look back on it. I was 25 when I resigned. I was 27 when I testified before the January 6th committee. I'm 29 today, but my dear friend, Cassidy Hutchinson, was even younger than I was when she was thrust into that position. She was 25 when she testified.

And yeah, we had our whole careers ahead of us. We were clearly on trajectories that if we had just kind of stayed silent and gone along to get along, then we'd maybe have some you know position right now and you know whatever office but then I think to myself like do I really want that position anyways no no no I don't want to be withering yeah you'd be putting out a statement for Mitch McConnell today about how JD Vance

said worse things than he did exactly so it like, at the end of the day, I don't know what their motivations are. Like I said, I can only surmise that to me, it looks like that they're power hungry, but I knew that I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror if I didn't speak out and do the right thing. And so ever since resigning on January 6th and moving forward, I've tried to write that wrong of

kind of working for Donald Trump. Because I will say, I think that there is some cognitive dissonance there of like, I went to go work for him knowing that he wasn't a good man. But I wanted to do right by our country. I wanted him to be surrounded by people of good character. And at a certain point, then you kind of start to convince yourself like, Oh, well, he can't be that bad because you don't want to feel bad for having gone to work for him. And so obviously it came to a breaking point for myself where I couldn't keep lying to myself. I mean, I sat there in the West Wing on January 6, watched us aides pleaded

with him, begging for him to call off the mob, and he didn't lift a finger. And so my job as a spokesperson for him would have been to defend that, and to me it was indefensible. So it made the decision to resign fairly easy. He can never be in there again. Nope.

One more thing on January 6th, so we're at it, he's been saying this, but it like becomes more news. So you saw the town hall at Univision last night, and where he talks about how it was a day of love. But he also does this thing that he's slipped and done a couple times, but it was worse yesterday than it has been. Talking about we, where he's defending himself to the questioner and and he said we had we didn't have guns which is a lie but aside we didn't have

guns they had guns and like when you think about that for a second it's like who's the day that had guns it's the car it's the Capitol Police and like the we is the people attacking the police. That's, that was him yesterday. That's him in 2024. He still thinks that the mob is on his side and that the people defending the Capitol are the enemy within. Like that's insane. No, it's actually certifiably insane. I do want to say that that inner, the guy who asked him the question at the town hall. Awesome question. Awesome question. Probably the hardest question. I want the press to find that guy because he started off this question by saying, look,

I voted for you in the past. You lost my vote because of January 6th now. Can you win it back? Explain this to me. And Trump goes on to call it a day of love and then says that we, yeah, and to me, January 6th was one call it a day of love and then says that we, yeah, and to me, January 6th was one of the darkest days in our nation's history. I mean, it's a stain on America. And so for him to say that, it just goes to show that he hasn't learned anything

because I think back to even on January 6th, when he released the video message from the Rose Garden. He said to the protest, I shouldn't call him protesters, rioters, sorry, my bad. Let me correct myself, but rioters, he says to them, we love you, you're very special. And that really stuck out to me because he didn't try to differentiate

between the people who were peacefully protesting on the ellipse and those that we saw storm the Capitol and brutally assault police officers. No, he was referring to those people. And so it shows that he's learned nothing. He has no remorse for what happened. He feels no accountability that maybe he's responsible for what happened.

And then he thinks of them as his people. That's why he said we. And it just shows that like he's learned nothing. And it's mind boggling to me then the Republican elected officials who whitewash the events of that day. Because it'd be one thing if Donald Trump admitted any wrongdoing,

but we know that he's not capable of doing that. And so yeah, I think I would love for the press to find the guy who asked that question see if Trump changed his mind and convinced him to support him again because I can assure you that it was one of the worst answers just like from a communicator standpoint like having worked in communications and politics it was one of the worst answers I've ever seen in a town hall I mean for there's no way in hell he won that guy's vote back. I mean, the guy's face is even like, what? Like he even looked, yeah, he didn't even seem to try because

if he had maybe shown any amount of remorse, maybe, but he's just not capable of it. Or pretended to. Yeah. And I mean, it, it, it just shows like he wanted those people at the Capitol that day because he thought that they were fighting for him to stay in power. That's what he wanted those people at the Capitol that day because he thought that they were fighting for him to stay in power. That's what he wanted. He didn't care about what happened. I mean, we know from the January 6th committee

that he was passed a note that said that one of his supporters had been shot and he didn't care. He didn't lift a finger, even one of his own people. All right. I can like feel my heart beating in my chest right now. I'm getting so fucking mad. I know I'm just getting so mad. I get so mad.

So let's talk about something happy really quick. I just want to talk about your experience with Liz Cheney. I kind of want to build a statue to her right now. I couldn't even like. It's crazy to me that it's just like Adam and Liz and Mark Cuban out there like doing everything. Like we're doing art over here. But it's like, is there nobody else? But you've gotten to have like some personal, you know, right, because you had to talk to her about

testifying and getting you comfortable to testify and then you guys had an event together the other day. Was it last week? Times of Five Circle last week. And so anyway, just kind of talk about what Liz has meant to you and how the experience has been dealing with her one-on-one. Yeah, I think you would think she'd be really intimidating just looking at her.

I mean, she's this badass woman. I'm intimidated by her. Exactly. I think I was too, the first conversation I had with her when I was sitting down with her privately for the January 6th committee because I I wasn't, I was sympathetic to their cause obviously when the committee was stood up, but it was a little nerve-racking I mean I had worked in Republican politics my whole career. This was a majority Democrat committee she was one of the only Republicans and This was a majority Democrat committee. She was one of the only Republicans.

And she took the time out of her day to have a private one-on-one meeting with me in a secret office inside the basement of the Capitol. And we sat there for like five hours and just talked. And it didn't leak to the media that I had gone and met with her. And so it built trust there because I hadn't met her prior to that. And then the more I've gotten to know her, she is just such a... I mean, she's funny, very funny. No. I mean it. She...

Like jokes? I mean, you saw the joke she made when she came out for the Harris event where she joked about she's been a Republican longer than Donald Trump's been spray tanning. Oh, that was pretty good. That was good. That felt like somebody wrote it for her though. Like she's got her own jokes. She's got a great sense of humor. One of these days. I'll find out.

She's very warm and just a good-hearted person and so genuine. And so you just see that this has been such a tough road for her. I mean, she could be the Speaker of the House right now if she wanted to be. But you know what she exactly she was in Republican leadership and she could have just you know sat silently and let everything transpire but she knew she because she's a patriot and she loves this country she knew she couldn't sit by and and I just have such respect for her. I mean she's got bigger balls than all the male members of Congress combined.

And I'm really proud and honored to know her. And I think she's just been such like a guiding light for myself and Cassidy Hutchinson and Alyssa Farah Griffin and the other women who have spoken out against Trump. And yeah, just really honored to know her. I'm happy. We're gonna create a little Harlan Crow sculpture garden like she's gonna have the biggest sculpture you have a little one. I'll take it. If I'm anywhere near her, I won't complain.

Alright last question I have a gimmick that I asked you but I'm actually particularly interested in your answer to this because you worked for Trump and I feel like sometimes some of us never Trumpers who have been never Trumpers for ten years now Like our brains are getting pickled But the most important question I get from people I got this on Twitter today actually so I'll send this to this guy He said I have a sister. I think it was a sister in Pennsylvania and She's a conservative. She's a Republican. She's always in a Republican, but she doesn't like Trump and

I'm trying to nudge her to actually vote for Harris and do what you guys are doing. What is the best argument I can make to try to convince her? So I wanna hear what you think the best argument would be. All right, I guess this would be my elevator pitch then. On January 6th, Donald Trump, we know from Jack Smith's filing, was told by a White House aide that his own VP had been moved to a secure location

because of everything that was happening at the Capitol. The vice president was there with his family that day. And what was Donald Trump's reaction? He said, so what? This is a man who lacks empathy. He is a man of the lowest moral character and I just think that if he didn't care about his own VP's life being in danger What makes you think he cares about you and so?

There's a little more keep going I'm letting you roll. Thank you and I know that Kamala Harris isn't perfect. I have never voted for a Democrat a day in my life, but I believe that she is a good person. I believe she is someone who will uphold her oath of office. And so yeah, there can come a day where we will disagree about policy,

and I'm not probably going to like everything in her agenda, but she's not going to light the Constitution on fire and so I understand the hesitation I mean I like I said I've never voted for a Democrat either but in in my eyes I'm just sick and tired of making excuses for Donald Trump because of policy that's the excuse I often hear from people. Because you know what? I think that the constitution and character matter too. And I'm tired of Trump. Like you said, it's been 10 years of dealing with this.

And I think it's finally time for us to turn the page and she's our best shot at it. Amen. Are you excited to vote for her? Like to go in and do it in person? Are you going to go in in person? Or have you already done it? I have my absentee ballot. It's sitting on your kitchen table. It's sitting on my kitchen counter. I haven't filled it in person, are you gonna go in in person? Or have you already done it? I have my absentee ballot, but I'm-

It's sitting on your kitchen table. It's sitting on my kitchen counter. I haven't filled it out yet actually, but I thought about maybe going in person. I've always voted absentee, which I don't know why. I just always have, but I'm like, maybe this time I'll go in person because you know, get the rush of it.

Yeah, amen. All right, that's Sarah Matthews. Thank you everybody. Hero! Yeah, amen. All right, that's Sarah Matthews. Thank you, everybody. Yeah, yeah. All right, we'll be on the bus together, me and Sarah. So I'll see you in a little bit. Thank you so much. All right. That was the Bulwark podcast.

We'll be back on Monday with somebody named Bill Crystal. It's long overdue, but now the Philly's slammin' Boyz II Men, ABC, BBD The East Coast family, never skipped a beat Nah, Wacoolan on South Street Jet Black Vans, plenty of friends And all the Philly's steaks you can eat Back in school we used to dream about this every day Could it really happen? Or do dreams just fade away?

Yeah. Then we started singing the days and it sounds smooth. Then we started a new mini. We are kicking it just for you. No time for you to come back again. Going a little east coast away. Boy, something's going on Not too hard, not too soft

Boy, boy, he's