The Bulwark Podcast - Mark Leibovich: The Democrats' Rumor Mill

Episode Date: August 27, 2024

Rumors have surfaced about Joe feeling sad and resentful about the re-energized party. At the same time, Kamala seems happy to share the limelight with party stars, like Pete Buttigieg. And over at Mar-a-Lago land, the flat-footed Trump campaign still doesn't know how to respond to the change in the Dem ticket. Plus, the mysterious and sketchy way Trump is allocating campaign contributions. Mark Leibovich and Juleanna Glover join Tim Miller. show notes: Mark's piece on the Buttigieg Bubble Elaina Plott Calabro's piece on Kash Patel Juleanna's essay for The New York Times on Trump's expenditures The "YIMBYs for Harris" event Tim is part of The Apple playlist link for Bulwark Pod music Tim's Spotify list

Hey everybody, big show today. I've got a couple of programming notes for you real quick. I am going to be a guest speaker at YIMBYS for Harris. Y-I-M-B-Y-S. You know what YIMBY is? Yes, in my backyard. We need to build, baby, build. I've been so encouraged that it seems like Barack Obama's a YIMBY per my interview with Jon Favreau last week. Kamala Harris has come around on this. We need to build 3 million new houses. This is something that, let's just be honest, Democrats have been a little bit behind the ball on when it comes to our housing crisis. I think it's one of the most important issues that face us. I'm pumped that there's a group out there that is both demonstrating support for Kamala Harris and building support for

her and also demonstrating that there is huge support for this issue and she should follow up on her promises if she's to win in November. So I'm pumped to be part of this. Yimby's for Harris. Brian Schatz, sender from Hawaii. Wes Moore, governor of Maryland. London Breed, San Francisco, and myself. It's Wednesday.

It's tomorrow night. You can come hang out. Yimby's for Harris. I will be there. It's going to be good. It's going to be a little Zoom hang. We'll put the link in the show notes today. Speaking of show notes links,

I got stopped in the street yesterday by a guy that's like, where is the playlist, the music playlist for Apple Music? Our boy Jake's been doing that. Super listener Jake has been doing that. So we'll put the Apple Music and Spotify link in the show notes today.

Lastly, today's show, your man and mine, Mark Leibovich. I'm trying something a little bit new this week where we have a little bonus guest at the end. We have a full show. We're not shortchanging you. We're not doing one of these double shows where we shortchange you. We have a full show with an A-list guest like Mark Leibovich, and I'm so excited about tomorrow's guest. But there's just so much shit going on, and there are also other people that I want to get on the show. So today we also have my good friend Juliana Glover talking about her New York Times op ed over the weekend that I think was very revealing about some some games

that the Trump campaign is doing with their campaign finance work. She also has some insights on what the hell is happening with these former cabinet officials. How can how can we get them in the boat for Kamala Harris? So stick around for juliana at the end we're going to do another double tomorrow hope you guys enjoy it put the feedback in the comments up next mark leibovich of the atlantic hello and welcome to the board podcast i'm your host host, Tim Miller. He's the staff writer at The Atlantic. He's the author of five books, including This Town and the most recent Thank You for Your Servitude. It's Leibovich. What's happening, Leibo? Tim, great to be here. Am I officially a friend of the show now? I mean, I feel like a friend of the show.

I've been on a few times, but I would like to be. You aren't quite at the Tom Nichols status. Eventually, once you've gone've gone a certain number of times you get a special gift in the mail from me but uh you haven't reached that yet but certainly in our hearts you're a friend of the pot okay yeah that you kept it vague but i appreciate that so it'll just give me something free floatingly to work for i'm so happy to see you i just uh you have a great piece about 21 minutes in the buddha judge bubble which had me chuckling from the dnc but before we get to mayor speaking of a friend of the pod mayor pete i mean like this podcast is like the home base of the pete stan club i mean you can't get more on the nose i

don't think than than the bulwark audience for pete i want your biggest picture impressions you did both conventions you're a man that is observant i just kind of want to let you flow i kind of want to put a quarter in and just see what you thought what your impressions were of the dnc and how it compared to what happened up in milwaukee yeah i mean both conventions were fascinating in their own ways i mean the first part about it just sort of looking at them together was that they were separated by what like three four weeks but ultimately massive history in the middle of it, which is the Biden dropping out thing. That little thing? That little thing. But if you look at both conventions, which occurred on both sides of that, they were both incredibly hyper-confident affairs. I remember

not dreading, but going into the RNC, I was thinking there could be some menace here, especially because the assassination attempt happened a few days ago. But it turned out to be just the opposite. I mean, there was a mix of overconfidence, but also touched by godness because, you know, Trump had just survived, you know, a assassination attempt. And I guess the only point of argument there was, is he Donald J. Trump or Donald John Trump? Or did he survive the assassination because he has super human powers or because he was touched by god i mean real controversy is he more of a moses figure or a peter or a jesus on the cross all those things but i mean look it was

it was dear leader on steroids um like nothing we've seen before and then of course two three days later can we just pause on that for one second though because your menace point isn't something i've been wanting to bring up for anybody that's read thank you for servitude or why we did it not a lot of huge compliments from uh the two of us here for the maga culture all right no and so when something happens that surprises me in a positive way i do think it bears mentioning i re-listened on just like super fast chipmunk speed to the two podcasts that we did right after the assassination attempt and i was extremely worried at the time like almost there was a somberness to them out of expectation i thought that there was going to be extremely violent period that followed it

at minimum of rhetoric you know and who the hell knows what that would have led to and that just didn't happen yes there needs to be like a very modest cap nod yeah i guess it's like do you really got to hand it to them for not trying to advance a violent backlash but like you kind of do got to hand it to them for not trying to push a violent backlash i guess yeah i mean people were just freaked out i mean it was that soon after so i think you know it's a combination of the freaked out factor maybe some genuine humanity there and also again just overconfidence which at that moment seemed very well founded so yeah that convention was framed by the assassination attempt and then biden getting out a couple of days later which kind of

changed everything about the race dynamic wise but it it also, it was a big mood swing, I mean, from day to day to day. And then the Democratic convention, you had a somewhat similar, not mood swing, because it was all, I mean, it's been a pretty momentum filled few weeks for Democrats since Biden got off the stage. I thought it was a little messy or felt like it could be a little messy on Monday night between the really, you know, the sort of unforced error delays in getting the main speaker, who in that case was Biden, on like well after 11, it turned out. But also, I mean, the Biden thing is and remains kind of messy. And I think that was the night where they kind of had to deal with it

and kind of deal with the awkwardness and listen to Biden and then send him off, which itself was weird. And then beginning Tuesday night, they could do the work that they were there to do, which is to show the unity, show the star power, get behind Kamala. And also, and obviously there were some great performances, the Obamas and Tim walls and a number of other people were really good. So, I mean, you've done,

you know, probably like 37 conventions or something like that. 94. 94. My first was the, uh, Kiefer. No,

I don't know. Like rather than maybe comparing it to the weird Trumpy and, you know, dear leader kind of vibe. Like how did it compare to eight, 12, you know, democratic leader kind of vibe? Like, how did it compare to 2008, 12, you know, Democratic type conventions for you? Yeah, I mean, you sort of remember those conventions by moments. I mean, like 12, you remember, I guess, Romney talking to the chair, and then...

Clint talked to the chair. Clint talked to the chair. Yeah, the Clinties were talking to the chair. I mean, 2008 was like all Obama, but also Palin. That was quite a moment and quite a frenzy, which took place in St. Paul. 2004, I mean, it was the John, in Democrats, it was the John Kerry convention, but really retroactively, we're sort of remembered as the Obama, right? And then- Zell Miller, obviously. Zell Miller on the Republican side, right. That's the speech you remember from that. I think Arnold

Schwarzenegger came out. I mean, there was a lot of very different time. 2016, geez, I mean, Ted Cruz's speech. And then there was some pretty serious Democratic disarray then because of the Bernie thing and the Hillary thing. I mean, that was pretty hot at that point. Then there were no conventions in 2020. So, yeah, what was interesting about these two conventions is it's been a while, right? There's a lot of pent-up energy for convention madness and convention dynamics, and it's unclear what we'll remember about these two conventions. But, yeah, I have a pretty good

idea. I think the ear gauze imagery of the Republican convention, of the Trump convention, kind of lingers. You just kind of think of it with both Trump himself, but also the kind of coast playing ear gauze. Yeah. A lot of the delegates were putting on, which was, which was kind of weird. And then for this one, I don't know,

just, I thought the speech is the star power, the energy. What's Michelle. Yeah. He's going out to one of them black jobs. It was really, it was quite a moment.

Yeah. I'd be curious to know what you thought i thought the combo speech at least in the hall i mean everyone was like oh it's a home run it's a home run i felt like it was a double maybe in the hall i i think that when you were in the hall she kind of paled a little bit next to the obama the walls experience and a couple of others maybe look i think that when you saw it analyzed through clips, through the sort of the totality of what she did, like she had some real great moments.

I mean, he's an unserious man, but his danger is very serious. That was, I thought, you know, I thought really, really good. And it's pretty good that the analysis landed on that. So, yeah, I think it was a successful convention. Here's why it was a double in the room in the home run is because the people that was a home run for were us for me was my people that she was trying to hit a home run for like she was trying to demonstrate to the like people that put biden over the top that didn't vote for hillary like they could trust

her right that she was up for the job, was presidential, shared their values. And so it's like all those lines, you know, about America being the greatest country in the world. Yeah, the Democrats are cool with that. Like, that's good, you know, but that's not getting the standing ovation the same way that Michelle making the black jobs joke is. But she was trying to get Bill Kristol to make the standing ovation. So, I'm in McLean. Be like, okay, all right, now we're in business, right? Like, her audience was broader than the room. And that's why I think she hit it.

Yeah, I agree. And I think it's smart, too. I mean, I think, you know, maybe there could be some blowback from the left. But, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I think Biden kind of, that I think was the most successful thing that Biden did in 2020. I mean, he ran a kind of center left campaign rather than a far left campaign the only book i've seen from the left well i guess that they didn't let a palestinian advocate speak which is i just think was kind of a unforced error like they could have

put him anywhere and that's one of the things like why not just check the box and move on put him at 6 15 you know yeah the only thing about her speech was the word lethal and that is that's kind of one of those good gifts like if you're a progressive with a big social media following listening maybe you pretend to be mad about that because like that's the kind of thing that butches her up for the middle a little bit people like oh man those peaceniks are so upset that she used the word lethal like that that was like really the only thing that i saw that people had any issue yeah i do and it doesn't seem like an actionable gaffe if it wasn't even a gap right i mean it's not like i'm not going to vote for because of this word all right so you follow pete around did you get any sense that

there's you know wishing could have been him yeah let me sort of bring you into like the journalism um sausage factory here the wishing here was i needed needed to write a story and Pete was in obviously great demand. Liz Smith and his team were nice enough to let me in for a very brief period of time. I mean, I've got a 14 minute interview, 21 minutes sort of walking from point A to point B. So it's just sort of the desperation there was just watching the Pete Buttigieg phenomena up close for as much time as I could get, and then just writing it up as quickly as possible. So that's what I did. I mean, look, Pete Buttigieg is a star. I mean, there are a lot of stars walking around the Democratic Convention. I mean, there were a lot of kind of bubble entourage sensations. You'd see these scrums walking around the concourse or on the floor or out on the street. Who else? Like who? You know, AOC, certainly, I mean, anyone Obama adjacent,

I mean, certainly Tim Miller, right? I mean, it's actually, it's funny. I mean, a lot of the podcasters who have sort of emerged around the Trump era are huge, as you can attest. But I think, who else? Wes Moore, anyone who's Tim Walls adjacent, any high level staff, like in the sort of pluff cutter category at this point, you know, Jen O'Malley, there was a lot of that. There's a Jen O'Malley hive there? I didn't actually see it, but I could imagine if Jen walked around for a few minutes and if people recognize her and, you know, you're in a crowd that people will recognize the Jen O'Malley Dillons of the world, you would have seen some fuss. A lot of the governors, I mean, Gavin Newsom, I saw,

had a fuss around him. Chris Coons had a fuss around him. He said people earnestly probably asking him about Biden, things like that. So yeah, it was very specialized. I mean, this is a heavy user market of political junkies, obviously. So you're following Pete around.

One of the interesting things about your story, that's just like one of these, I'm getting old time flies sort of things like life is so strange was so this was like his first not really his first convention as a star even but like his first convention right it kind of feels like he's been alive for so long at this point but in 16 he was live blogging for slate right which i did not realize that was a fact about him i did not know and the funniest thing to me is like to think about it in 16 both pete the top surrogate for comla and the cabinet secretary and jd vance a sitting senator who is the vp nominee were both bloggers yes during trump's first campaign like i was like we've gone in eight years from bloggers to like the biggest stars at

the respective conventions so there's hope for you out there bloggers to like the biggest stars at the respective conventions. So there's hope for you out there, bloggers. It's true. Actually, I mean, I think Pete blogged the Indiana primary for Slate, and I think he might have eventually gotten to the convention as a delegate. I know he rated an invite to the Obama 2012 convention, but he did not rate an invite to the obviously the 2008. And he also worked on the Kerry campaign in 2004. Certainly didn't rate an invite to the, obviously, the 2008. And he also worked on the

Kerry campaign in 2004, certainly didn't rate an invite to that. So what's funny about Pete is he's such a fanboy. And, you know, he kind of lived the fanboy experience. And I remember interviewing him in 2020, and we talked about it the other day. He was at Harvard, I guess, in 2000. And there was a debate between Bush and Gore at the Kennedy Library in Boston. And he volunteered to, like, be a driver for some other volunteers on the Gore campaign, like people they wanted to plant in the crowd. And he was talking about how starstruck he was getting to meet, likena brazil and getting to meet like you know bob shrum and people like that because i mean the guy i mean like a lot of young kind of kennedy school or iop types he was just thrilled to be in the presence of this and he was like a total you know total fanboy so he's on the other side of that that is so cute so the one thing that struck me

about how much more public he's been since Kamala, I'm not reporting anything. I don't know anything, but I just, this is just, I'm a keen observer like you are of the swamp condition. I was with Pete maybe six months ago and like we were off the record. I was just like, why aren't you like, I want more of you. Like you're doing a lot, but I want like, I want 10 X of what you're doing. And like, I didn't, I didn't get a good answer. And I think that there was like a worry about overshadowing Biden during this period. You could imagine that that would exist for Kamala.

And it doesn't. It feels like they want everybody out there. But I don't know. You tell me. I think they do. I mean, I do think that, yeah, there were great sensitivities around Biden. Because let's face it, it wasn't that hard to overshadow him. Whether you were a really gifted political athlete like Pete Buttigieg or Gavin Newsom or whoever,

or someone less talented, right? So it does seem like there's not a lot of insecurity about talent outshining Kamala, not because she can't be outshined, but because I think people are genuinely unified behind her and excited. And I had no sense whatsoever from anyone I talked to that, Oh, Pete secretly wants her to lose or, you know, wall secretly wants her to lose or Westmore secretly wants her to look. What about Gavin though? What about Gavin? You know, it's funny. Gavin is, um,

Gavin's one guy was really looking forward to running into and maybe catching up with a little bit. I mean, obviously he's in big demand. Only saw him from a distance. I mean, I spent time with him back in April, March, or something like that for a pretty big story I did. He was in a different place. The race was in a different place. Would have loved to have kind of gotten a little window into his thinking, especially given his history with Kamala, given his history with Biden, given his fairly, I wouldn't say obvious, but certainly frontal desire to run and certainly consideration about running and so forth. So I'd be curious to know what his thinking is. He's welcome on the pod.

I don't know. I was watching him on the pod with the pod bros and I don't know, you know, I'm just joking. Obviously, Gavin Newsom wants Kamala Harris to win and is going to be out there working for and all that but there is a sense of regrets i have a few maybe i think underneath the underneath the skin i wouldn't surprise me yeah it wouldn't surprise me i mean look the guy obviously i assume if biden had like gotten out from the outset he probably would have run he also i, I mean, his history with Kamloops, they go back like San Francisco in the early aughts, at least. I mean, I think when he was with Kimberly, and I don't think she was with Doug yet. But anyway, they would socialize. I mean, San Francisco, Bay Area, it's a small town, especially politically.

All right, guys, here's the thing. I don't know if you're like me but these days even if i just have like two glasses of wine at dinner sometimes i'm dragging the next day and so to make sure that this podcast is fresh for you i'm cutting out weeknight booze i'm cutting it out but sometimes it's been a long day you know sometimes i had to watch a two and a half hour Donald Trump speech in Montana. And how am I supposed to tolerate that all alone? And so one answer we've turned to is Sol's out of office microdose THC gummies. Out of office gummies come in four different doses and delicious flavors, plus no hangover.

Sol suggests them for when you're cleaning your inbox, winding down after work, or heading out to a party. I suggest them for if you've decided you want to flip over to see what they're talking about on Fox. And the good news is now you can buy these hemp-derived THC products legally anywhere in the U.S. through this podcast sponsor, Sol. This podcast is sponsored by Sol. The new out-of-office gummies are perfectly microdosed with hemp-derived THC and CBD to give any day that chilling on the beach vibe. Out-of-office gummies give you that warm, fuzzy, euphoric microdose feeling

without sending you to the moon. You can go for a jog, watch your favorite TV show, or head out to a party, whatever floats your boat. In my life, I got somebody that you wouldn't expect to be a THC gummy user. I promise you that they've been using just a little halfy before they go to bed to help them sleep. Soul was founded five years ago by brother and sister duo Mike and Angie Lee. Mike is a former world-ranked professional boxer and Angie is an author and professional speaker. They have the desire to create natural alternatives to the medication that tackle problems they deal with

themselves like sleeplessness anxiety focus and pain so give soul a try head to get soul.com and use code the bulwark for 30 off your order that's 30 off your order using code the bulwark one last time get soul.com and code the bulwark for 30 off we do have some trump stuff to get to but i have to do the biden thing with you for a minute because you were out ahead of the pack as is you know kind of your habit talking about what people are whispering about i forget when was this early was it like january 20 i was at disneyland i think when you were doing this yeah well the first story i wrote on him being too old and shouldn't run was 2022 i mean that was yeah they they didn't like me at all and i wrote the same i wrote similar stories about how someone

needed to primary him and so forth a number of times so but part of the story that i want to focus on part of those stories was what came to be in a lot of the later stories which was like the public talking points what did not match what people were saying at the various cocktail parties that you reluctantly attend. I'm above it all, Tim. We must state that. Yeah, because you're very above it all. Yeah, you are very above it all. That is not your scene, but you just have to go there.

I'm an anthropologist. I have great remorse. It's quite a game I play. I got to ask it. Was that happening at the DNnc at all still about the current situation i mean he's keeping a pretty light schedule he was in california for a week he's in rohoboth all week we're not seeing a lot of him there'll be a lot of reasons for that i'm not trying to do conspiracy mongering but like is there any buzz that's that like people are concerned

about august 27th through January 20th? Possibly, maybe. I would say this. I mean, I think it's possibly a little more sad, which is that I think he's quite upset. I think he is still really wounded by the whole state of affairs this summer. I think he remains old. I think this summer has probably aged him and exhausted him even further. But I also think, and this part of it, I mean, it's not like he's an asset out there. I mean, maybe he will be seen as an asset at some point strategically in Pennsylvania, parts of Michigan, things like that. But he, at this moment, seems like a man without a purpose within what currently has been reconstituted as a very energized party.

And that's kind of an ongoing awkwardness. I mean, this is one thing I'd say to him and you probably heard something similar on Thursday night when everyone was still, well, you know, last night of the convention, people were pretty high about the whole week and Kamala speech and all the speeches. I had about three or four different conversations with people saying the exact same thing. And they would say, you know, can you imagine how we would feel if we had spent all the energy and all the time this week trying to push

Biden over the finish line through Thursday night? And, you know, we'd have to worry about, you know, can he stay up this late every I mean, it's these are very real considerations that I think I've had the same conversation where I was like, think sarah longwell would have had to put me on administrative leave at the end of the at the end of the week yeah it out because it just would have been absolutely he could do stuff though he could go on foreign trips he could i don't know he could do a part interview i like the president could still do other things like you know they're still presidenting things that he could be doing president Presidenting? He has a real job, unlike Kamala. Right.

I mean, I hate to say it. I mean, it's like, okay, the vice president can work from home for the next three or four months or like Pennsylvania or something like that. So home being Pennsylvania. But it doesn't seem like he's doing that. Just because it's you. I wouldn't do that if it wasn't for this town audience. This is a little more indulgent than we like to get on the pod. But I do have one other piece of gossip a prominent media person received a text following pete's speech

speaking to your 21 minutes in the pete bubble from a high-ranking biden official upset that pete didn't mention him who okay it doesn't surprise me and it's also a window into that dynamic which was not that far from the surface i I mean, so Kamala and I guess Walls, right, that went up to Wisconsin on Tuesday night. They had that great rally at the Fiserv Center, which looked like a brilliant move. You know, you go into Trump's convention space, you blow it out, and then you simultaneously have the Obamas blowing out at the convention. But supposedly, I forgot where i read this there was some concern about biden being upset seeing the harris walls i think that was bullshit you think that was real hey i read it somewhere it might have been on twitter no i don't know you're the one that should know that's what you're on the

podcast mark leo vich you're supposed to know who's mad okay how's that that's why you're here it's true it's 100 true no i look, but Biden's up in his feelings. There's no question about it. I mean, you don't have to be a great, you don't have to be Sigmund Freud, you know, or whatever. Sigmund Freud is such a dated reference. I disavow Sigmund Freud. Dr. Drew? I don't know.

No, someone. No, look, I mean, there's Pelosi stuff. There's Obama stuff. There might be Kamala stuff. I mean, there are people in the White House or close to the White House noticing slights or perceived slights about Pete Buttigieg not mentioning Joe Biden enough or at all in his speech. I mean, to me, that takes up a lot of energy. And he remains a sensitive sort of part of all this that's obviously not going away,

at least till January. All right. Well, I guess I would rather it be a little bit sad than it be concerning, if those are the options. Sure. I want to talk about this debate over Kamala interviews and then get into your colleague Elena Platt's latest on the people doing servitude for Trump. Playbook this morning has this whole fucking thing about, oh, which network

is going to get the first Kamala interview and who's going to do it and when are they going to do it and are they going to meet their goal within a month? It's like, who fucking cares about this? Like, why don't they just rip off the bandaid and get this over with? What is happening? Yeah. And by the way, you don't even have to, I mean, you can do it with like a friendlier interviewer. You know, I would happily talk to her. Not that I'm friendly or safe or reliable or anything like, like you guys. No, I mean, no, no kidding. I don't know. Just like it doesn't, yeah. Take the energy out of this. But I also think, look, I I'm all for interviews. I think transparency is good. I think interviews are good. I think

public officials should talk to the press. But I also just don't think in the real world, there are a lot of Sarah Longwell focus group members who are saying, I will not vote for this woman until she sits down with, you know, David Muir. And if he does David Muir and not Gayle King, I will be upset. I mean, like, come on. the whole thing is crazy it makes me feel the most of remove from dc reading this playbook thing it was like and so and so is calling tony west and maya about how they should get the first interview and so it's calling brian fowl and she's like who cares who gets the first interview just do an interview do a couple do some friendly ones do interviews like don't do interviews with these

people by the way do interviews with black media with charlamagne with dl hugley do media with like weird tiktok people i've never heard of right like dude just do whatever do whatever do whatever thing is crazy so i want to talk about the trump people the mar-a-lago mood music these days like feels pretty rough huh like but it's almost like it's out of balance with the actual race like the race is still close it's extremely close it's it's extremely so what do you how do you assess that i guess the trump campaign one thing we're learning is there's never much of a campaign like i mean yes you can say that that they really know what they're doing this time but then you see like some adversity and you

realize that basically it's all a reflection of the candidate. And, you know, are we waiting for the Corey Lewandowski era to emerge more fully? You know, and I mean, I don't know, that's kind of, it's all 2016, right? I mean, the race remains really, really close. And you would think that the fundamentals like traditionally are very much on the side of the responsibly, strategically run democratic race, the more disciplined nominee and so forth. But here we are. So the mood music seems really bad. I mean, I'm just kind of I'm just struck by how unprepared they were by all of this. I mean, the idea that there was this 80 percent chance pretty much at their convention that I think Kamala Harris or at least Biden was going to step down.

And yet they seem completely flat footed by that is to me malpractice. But at the same time, I mean, Donald Trump is like walking political malpractice. And he has, of course, shown people again and again that that can win or at least that can retain a complete stranglehold on one of our two political parties so i don't know i mean it doesn't surprise me but it's it's certainly a different or a new version of a movie we've seen many many times before he's on his fourth nickname for far and it's comrade which doesn't really land for me even connie comelow would have been better i think than comrade that's comrade that's not great i don't think either but it's just yeah who's that for i don't know i mean i mean you'd think it'd be like some old like kind of john bircher kind of like bragan nixon is he

not already have those people not really i mean you would think not right they're either dead or probably i don't know i mean they were still alive though anybody who's like gets a good chuckle out of comrade kamala i don't think was a gettable gettable voter you know you're probably right tim i think that that's totally yeah that's 100 did you see sam stein wrote about this morning for the bulwark that um they're running ads now in palm beach the campaign is oh God. That was a great piece. Yeah. We've heard this before, but it's really stunning.

But, of course, not stunning if you've been following this guy and the pathology around this guy for eight years now. It just keeps getting to be a kind of thicker reduction. What's that cooking thing? Is it a reduction? A reduction, yeah. Yeah, it's a reduction. It's like a thick thing where the essence of it is a cherry reduction mark on cooking not something you're going to hear very much so this is actually a lead-in to the cash patel story about my colleague

elena plot but also yeah the idea that they would actually put any money time resources into running ads just so their client in palm beach can watch it is insane, pathetic, and completely on brand. The man who will do anything for Trump is the headline. Why Kash Patel is exactly the kind of person who would serve in the second Trump administration. There's one part of the story about a military action in Africa I want to really dig in on, but I'm just at the biggest picture, since this is sort of representative of your oomph know having hung out at the trump hotel right and like knowing these people give people a little bit of color about cash and like the types and and how maybe the mix of people might be different in 2025 if you were to return versus versus what it

looked like in 2019 so we're talking about this because, so Elena Plott, my colleague, a friend of good journalism, wrote this great- Also, she's a friend of the show. She's a great- Friend of the show. I mean, I'm sure. I don't want to presume anything.

She was on. We had a great episode. You told me at the beginning of this podcast that you were not sure I rose to the level of- No, no. No, just down to the Tom Nichols level. We're ranking the Atlantic people. You know, it's Nichols and Frum are on category okay you and elena are kind of on in category two that you're just you haven't quite

you haven't quite got like the gold watch yet that's that's all i'm saying the green again something to work for it was on the elena episode by the way that i first revealed that i was coconut curious so i think that could end up being a historic document because yeah because we were discussing her piece on kabla and i was like i think that kamala up being a historic document because we were discussing her piece on Kabla. And I was like, I think that Kabla has been treated unfairly. And I think I'm coconut curious. It was early July. And that really, I think, has aged well for the six weeks that it's been.

Young history students, 40, 50 years from now, maybe 100 years from now, will look back on the Coconut Curious podcast. So Elena wrote this great piece on Kash Patel. It's a profile of Kash Patel, who is this, you know, complete Trumpy, flunky, but also way over the top. I mean, someone who, as the headline indicates, will do anything to please Donald Trump, which, of course, you know, if you are in the Trump orbit, if you please Donald Trump, you will juice your own standing, your own ambitions inside that world. And so in a rational world where such an administration did not exist or come to power, this would be a pure laughingstock.

But because of the world we live in or could live in, if the election goes a certain way in November, Kash Patel could have a very big job. And I think one of the things about Elena's story that was just essential to realize is that this is maybe an over-the-top version of someone who could do this, but very much not a one-off. I mean, this is an administration that would be populated top to bottom in Donald Trump's ideal vision with people like this, you know, the only potential check on this is what the Senate would abide. And I think there's

a really good chance it could be a Republican Senate. The question is, could they get into Senate confirmed positions? But yeah, just very scary display, but also really well told story about the kind of person who could really thrive in the next, if there is a next Donald Trump administration. Yeah, I admit gone, you really are looking at Susan and Lisa, you know what I mean? Like, if you get to 53, it's like, who's going to stop who, you know, we're going to be waiting for John Cornyn to show a spine, you start like the type of person that would have to stop a confirmation, depending on how the Senate shakes out. Yeah. Anyway, here's the one story that I think is worth really highlighting. It happened October

30th, 2020. SEAL Team 6 was awaiting the green light on a rescue mission in West Africa. The administration had recently learned where gunmen were holding an American who had been kidnapped. Multiple agencies were coordinating on the final details for the evening operation, but it was the State Department's job to resolve securing airspace permission from Nigerian officials. Wanted to make sure the people in Nigeria knew that SEAL Team 6 was coming in so they didn't shoot them down. Around noon, Kash Patel called the Pentagon with an update. Pompeo had gotten the approval. The mission was a go.

The SEALs were close to landing in Nigeria. When DOD discovered that State had not in fact secured the clearance patel had just made it up yeah story goes on from there uh people should read the whole thing in the atlantic and subscribe but like just think about the fact that this guy is in this position at all and to to be like the liaison between the secretary of state and the defense department is insane and then when you kind of expand that out to be like in the next trump administration it's going to be mostly caches like the one-offs will be the people that are like hey actually maybe we should do this the correct way yeah that is sociopathic stuff like that isn't like it's

one thing to be like oh this is just a dumbass. And he's encouraging Trump to send out a mean tweet. Like that's bad. But this is like we're lying to the defense secretary about what the secretary of state said and putting our people at risk. It's madness. Yeah, it's such a chilling account in this story. I mean, I think, first of all, I mean, thank God they got these people out. It was a successful mission. Ultimately, it did not cost any lives, but it easily could have been the piece sort of talks about, you know, just the kind of the ire that was raised, I think, rightly among the people who sort of learned what had happened after the story.

Thank God ended well. But yeah, this was a window just into the pure nihilism of one desperate man, which I think, as I was reading it, it kind of mimicked Trump on January 6th, just sort of watching TV impassively, doing nothing, feeling gratitude, it seems, for the insurrectionists. And this is the same thing. I mean, no sense whatsoever of life and death and personal safety and, you know, law enforcement or diplomacy or any of the things that you would hope that a high-level official, much less the president, would keep front and center in their mind. Again, just the desperation of wanting to do something to please this similarly erratic person at the top of the chart is really chilling because that could be the next norm, right?

I mean, it's an extraordinary story to read in retrospect during an incredibly tenuous time. But again, going forward, this you know some some preview of the next level of pathology we see in an administration like this and here's the other thing that's just worth sitting on for a second of the players in that conversation you know you had pompeo who's secretary of state not a fan of mike pompeo on this podcast okay you had esper who's the secretary of defense at the time i'm so so to plus on esper we'll say he was on cnn yesterday implying he might vote for kamala so

esper we like he's coconut curious yeah he's coconut curious mark esper coconut curious he's got to get him over the line pompeo we don't like cash these are the three key players right in negotiating this cash is the one that almost gets our people killed by randomly lying about whether the Nigerians have secured airspace. That's October 30th, 2020. A month later, when Donald Trump is trying to execute a coup, Pompeo is out. Kind of half supporting it, just tacitly, but not really involved. Esper's literally out, kicked out patel

is trying to take over the government and be like the lead man for the you know whatever the coup like whatever you want to call the rogue trump administration right during the transition and now fast forward four years later pompeo wouldn't be in the next administration esper wouldn't be in the next administration patel would yeah yeah right like that is like the craziest part about this like you hear the story where it's like one person is obviously the most incompetent for put ideology aside one person is like should have be nowhere near the levers of power and trump looks at that situation is like oh yeah i want the lying crazy person that's the guy that we're keeping around. You other two that were just worried about like responsibly doing this exfil are not really that interested in you anymore. Yeah. By the way, how sure are you that Pompeo wouldn't serve in the next Trump administration?

I mean, I don't know. Has he really done anything to, I mean, he's sort of been laying low from what I can tell. That's fair. I guess he's out of the circle of trust though. Probably. I guess. I mean, you can get back into the circle of trust with donald trump just by putting on a red hat yeah like if right now i took off my nuggets hat and replaced it with a mega hat and was like mark leibovich here's the big reveal i'm going full donald trump i've been wrong i love donald trump i would be on the short list for press secretary if i did that right like he doesn't care about the past obviously like as long as you pay homage to him you you're in. So sure, Pompeo could be back. But like right now, the only person in the circle of trust is the one

that totally fucked up that situation in the most astonishing way imaginable. And the two people acting responsible are out of the circle of trust. Yeah, I'm sure Trump would appoint a blue ribbon commission to really get to the bottom of how that went South in 20, you know, at the end of 2020. No, I mean, yeah, true. I mean, it's up and down. I mean, that's what a, that's what a Trump victory would look like, you know, just full stop. And, you know, again, you can't put any trust in a Republican Senate or Republican anything, you know, presuming that, you know, they're not, you know, I would say,

you know, Mitt Romney, you know, Adam Kin you know they're not yeah i would say you know mitt romney you know adam kinsinger level at this point and you know maybe susan collins and and lisa murkowski and in the center so well if dark times anything else mark any other gossip for us any other news insights deep thoughts innuendo insults i take insults i was rooting for serbia i was rooting for serbia in the olympics were you because of because i was rooting for serbia i love america i love this country i believe in american exceptionalism i was i was rah-rah-ing all of kamala's most jingoistic lines at the convention that said kevin durant's twitter feed got under my skin and i love nicole yokich and for one time only i was i was written for serbia so maybe maybe that's a room for an insult i was just throwing

that out there i think it's room for an insult but i you know i come at it for different selfish reasons which i thought that jason tatum was yeah jason tatum was disrespected by steve kerr in fact at the convention when steve kerr speaking, I tried unsuccessfully in the press area to get a Jason Tate kind of mocking Jason Tatum chant going and I failed miserably, but I'm proud that I tried. Okay, did you have you had a chance to confront Steve Kerr in the hallway? Did you have a chance? I have not, but I was hoping for it because I would have gotten right in his face on the Jason Tatum thing. I mean, I think, you know, politically, you know, he gave a good speech. I thought it was effective, you know, politically, you know, he gave a good speech. I thought it was effective.

You know, it was perfect, you know, coming back to the United Center, Bulls, blah, blah, blah. But, and Steph Curry, I mean, there was a lot going on there. But, no, I can't get beyond Jason Tatum. I mean, at root, I love America as much as anyone does, Tim, including you. But, you know, ultimately, I'm a parochial asshole, and we are the worst. Look, I love America. Look, but let's agree that the things that bring us together, Tim, are stronger than

the things that divide us. How's that? I will agree with that. Mark Leibovich, thank you for coming back on the Borg podcast. You're only five to seven guest slots away from getting the secret super guest prize. So by 2027, it's going to be happening. We'll be talking to you soon. Up next, our mutual friend, Juliana Glover. Thank you, Tim. for guest prize so uh by 2027 it's going to be happening uh we'll be talking to you soon up next

our mutual friend juliana glover thank you tim here's the thing about birthdays they happen all year which probably means you should be buying a birthday gift for somebody right now and if you're like me it probably means you haven't even like thought about their birthday until the day before or the morning before because you know birthdays are tough and we've got a country to save right now and i was born on christmas so sometimes birthdays you know aren't at the top of my mind. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't give people a good birthday present because people deserve to be acknowledged. And one great idea that we've been promoting on this podcast is Aura Digital Frames.

Ranked the number one digital picture frame by Wirecutter, Aura Frames are easy to set up, update, and enjoy. Plus, they can be preloaded with photos and gift messages. So, whether you're giving the frame to your sister, your uncle, your mother-in-law, you can be sure your gift is personalized just for them. The thing I love most about Aura Frames is you can make sure people know what's going on with your life. Like, if you have a grandmother out there and maybe there are multiple grandkids, you can link up, you know, with your brothers and sisters, your cousins, and everybody can upload their photos onto the frame. So your grandma or grandfather are getting new updates all the time.

So they've got a little Aura frame there in their living room or their kitchen, their bedroom, wherever they want to put it. They're getting new pics of all the grandkids. It makes them feel like they know what's going on, even if you forgot to call them. Right now, Aura is having their very first friends and family sale. And we've got an exclusive offer just for our listeners. For a limited time only, you can get $35 off their best-selling frame by visiting AuraFrames.com and using the promo code THEBULLWORK at checkout.

That's Aura, A-U-R-A, frames.com, promo code THEBULLWORK. This is the best offer of the season, so don't miss out. Terms and conditions apply. Hey, everybody. We are back with my old friend, Juliana Glover. She's the chief executive of Ridgely Walsh, a corporate consultancy, and she's a former advisor to a bunch of Republican officials, John Ashcroft, George W. Bush, Dick Cheney.

You might have heard of them, John McCain. And she's been one of the good ones. Stalwart throughout the troubles of the last decade. And I'm excited to have her on the podcast. How are you doing, Juliana? I'm well, Tim. It's good to be on here with you. Thank you.

Thank you for doing this. I wish we could hang out in person. I do miss the cocktails in your little living room there, though. Not that much. Not that much. You know, one of the problems is you do have to talk to the dc people that are there so i i'm missing you there i want to talk about an op-ed that you wrote yesterday and also because of your kind of experience in in dealing

and navigating with principles and kind of how they think i also want to talk about the article that i wrote over the weekend about kind of the missing endorsements for Kamala from some of these ex-cabinet officials who I think know better. But first to your New York Times article, it was titled Republican Donors, Do You Know Where Your Money Goes? And you covered like this really underappreciated thing that has been happening in our campaign finance, where you should be able to see where every dollar is spent, because you have to file that as part of campaign finance laws. But what these campaigns have done, the Trump campaign the most egregiously,

is create these like S-corps that are catch-alls that do a lot of the payments and they just pay the money to this one group. And so you don't know where they're dishing out the money to. So talk a little bit about that process and what you speculate might be happening. Sure. So talk a little bit about that process and what you speculate might be happening. Sure. So it's not actually S-Corps, it's LLCs largely. And I think LLCs are well known to be easily constituted, typically in Delaware. And you can do it

basically with like a, you know, a Zoom legal doc capability. They take about 15 minutes to build. So in this case, the summer, Tim, you know, when it looked momentarily, a couple weeks, like Trump was going to be an inevitability, you know, I just started really sort of flailing about looking for any way to get, you know, a grip on an effective criticism of Trump and just started spending time leafing through the FEC reports. So 69% of all of Trump's expenditures under his campaign went to an entity called American Made Media Consultants. American Made Media Consultants, you know, looked into who that was. Turns out that the Campaign Legal Center had filed a complaint at the FEC in the spring of 2021, asking the FEC to investigate the payments

made to American-made media consultants because those payments, it wasn't clear where they were going. And under FEC law, any expenditure over $200 must be disclosed. And you would also under FEC law, you must know who the ultimate recipient is. Now, the reason this spurred additional inquiry is because the Campaign Legal Center was also able to discern that the entity American Made Media Consultants had been set up by Jared Kushner in the fall of 2019. Laura Trump was momentarily named president of the entity, and the Legal center also chronicled that one of Eric Trump's deputies from the Trump organization ended up running this group. Do we know that they did anything wrong with American made media consultants? Do we know that money actually, you know, all of the money was actually

spent on campaigns, campaigning or not? You know, the fact is, we don't know anything because, you know, in the end, the FEC voted three to three, the commissioners voted three to three to dismiss the complaint filed by the Campaign Legal Center. And at this point in time, Campaign Legal Center is appealing that decision in a DC court. And, you know, it could eventually, we could get some visibility into where those payments to AMMC actually ended up.

But for now, we only have a set of facts, a set of facts that are really quite astounding on its face. And that's that 69% of the Trump expenditures went to an entity that was set up by Jared and headed by Laura. Who would have thought the Trump family scamming and grifting um so like one example of this right is i remember there was like a big stink when on one of the fec reports i believe it was like melania stylist or something was on there our personal stylist right and then that stopped happening right we're just speculating obviously we don't know right so you don't it's the kind of thing where maybe she just started paying it for herself or maybe that's the kind of thing that you started putting under this group right various lawyers they've got to pay like who the

hell knows people that they want to put on contract that might have been you know potential witnesses in cases like all this stuff is possible and like it definitely could tie into his non-election related legal troubles too yes and it was reported at least in 2020 around AMMC specifically that the payments were made to Guilfoyle and to Laura Trump, you know, retainers and the tens of thousands of dollars a month. Again, we don't know whether any of that is true, but that was reported around it. And then this cycle, there seems to be sort of a similarly troubling pattern. As you look through this cycles, F seems to be sort of a similarly troubling pattern. As you look through this cycle's FEC reports are really only available up until the details

are only available up until the end of June. There's a new entity that makes frequent appearances under expenditures called Launchpad. And Launchpad is sort of another mystery LLC. If you go to the website, it doesn't say who's associated with it. It's sort of a generic ad agency, like no distinguishing characteristics about it whatsoever. And that entity is the recipient of around $15 million as of June 30th for the Trump 2024 campaign expenditures. One of the news outlets had tried to figure out what Launchpad was. It's a Delaware formed LLC, but supposed to be headquartered in North Carolina.

They checked with the North Carolina Secretary of State. Under the Delaware documents, it should be headquarters. The Secretary of State had no record of the business in state. I mean, the FEC is embarrassing. This is a long-term problem, the way in which our campaigns have just turned into totally unregulated Las Vegas.

So that's a problem. And Trump stealing from his supporters is a long held story that's been happening for a long time that I wish his supporters cared more about. But there's not a ton of evidence that they do. So that's the negative part of the story. Maybe the only silver lining to the story is that it is weird how little they've been spending on ads. And it's something you talk about in the piece, right?

Like that, given what they've raised and given what the Harris campaign and what the former Biden-Harris campaign had raised versus the spending, like there's a gap there that's pretty noticeable. Yeah, it's anywhere from three to one to Trump's matching Biden two-thirds to one-third, spending two-thirds of what Biden-Harris or Harris is spending. He's spending less. He's also really noticeably, the ground game is deeply lacking. They're not spending money in key states. I think one of the stats that I've used in the piece was that as of June, the Trump campaign had only a single office opened in Pennsylvania. And, you know, by all accounts, Pennsylvania is going to be the tipping point state, you have to win that, whoever wins that state wins the election. So I mean, really, where, what are they spending the cash on? I speculated that maybe they're, you know, holding in a reserve for some sort of big last minute blitz. But again, that's all speculation. And we really can't know where the money's going because the FEC just won't do its job. Anything else catch your eye? You know, I think the legal expenses are not fully understood. We're never going to know

based on, you know, how the FEC works now, how many dollars are being used to pay for the legal bills. We know that legal bills are now tens of millions, estimated to be $50, $60 million. And this is for a campaign that as of now has raised $260 million. So back at the end vote math, a third of the expenditures may be going to legal bills. And that's how much money is actually going to be used for campaigning. One last point on sort of how much money will be used for campaigning. Human nature being human nature. As we move into the fall and Trump's numbers, if perhaps they continue to drop and it looks

increasingly unlikely that he could win. I think that it would be human nature for individuals to decide they're going to pad their nests as much as they can while the spigots are blowing cash. And it could be a self-fulfilling prophecy that they perpetuate the likelihood that they lose because the fact that they think they're going to lose, so they're just going to spend all the money,

self-deal, pay themselves as much money as they can while the money is flowing in. Yeah, get while the getting's good. Your lips to God's ears. Okay. Well, one of the things that could help speed that process up would be some of our old friends actually doing what you and me have done and explicitly supporting Kamala Harris. And I'm just wondering, what is the psychology? What is happening here that we haven't? I mean, we kind of assume Liz will get there in the fall.

But Esper was wishy-washy on TV yesterday. Christie's been wishy-washy. You know, going back to Bush administration officials, there was some gossip going around that Condi and Bob Gates were going to do something. But I think maybe that was false. I don't know. You kind of live in these worlds. What do you think is the holdup from the more big ticket Bush officials as well as the kind of spurned Trump world people?

You know, we can talk about the specific names, but for many of those, I think they are going to come home in the end for Harris. There may be some sort of careful, effective planning, I hope. You know, the convention itself was really quite a blockbuster. It was extraordinarily well done. I don't know whether it would have been strategically wise to unveil any of these prominent Republicans potentially for after the debate, where if she does okay, rather than amazing, then you would roll out some very prominent endorsements following that. But I think holding the endorsements that we are pretty sure based on at least how they've spoken previously are going to be supporting the Democratic ticket in the end. The ones that are waffling over the last couple days, let's wait and see where the poll numbers end up. I think the fingers in the wind for some of these

guys. Yeah, some of these folks are young, they want to go out and have political careers after their future entirely hinges on whether Harris could indeed win by a lot. And if she does, then I think they'll have a place at the table, setting up what the future of the Republican Party is. If it's close, if it looks really close, and it feels like they are, you know, it's going to be a couple yards in a cloud of dust, and there'll be no resounding verdict on Trumpism. I think they will support because I think that at that point in time, their voices will be needed and necessary. And they'll feel as though they won't have an opportunity to really sort of dig in and rebuild the party afterwards.

I love optimistic, Juliana. I don't, I'm with, I hope that that's true. My one area of disagreement is, I don't know that there's a lot of strategizing going on. Again, I put Liz in a separate category. I think that the rest of them, I don't, I have uncouth authority that I don't think that there's a strategic cadence being planned.

There might be a strategic cadence that just falls into place. A lot of things have fallen into place for Kamala over the last five weeks and would love for that hot streak on the craps table to continue. But anyway, are there other things besides Liz that you feel like really are going to get there and they just need a little nudge? Is there anybody else that stands out? I think Harris is consolidating control over her campaign now. It's only been a couple of weeks since she understood that she was going to be the nominee. And I think the long-term strategic planning that has her imprint and her leadership's imprint is really just

digging in and getting started. And I fully expect a charm offensive to bring in every Republican of significance that would be inclined to support a Democrat against Trump this fall. And I think timing is going to be important. It needs to be a cadence of high profile names throughout the fall. This is why we bring in Juliana. I'm over rain cloud i'm stressing about this i'm wringing my hands and you're like it's happening it's happening girl calm down so uh i appreciate that i hope that you're right and maybe we'll have you back on a couple months we'll talk about it thank you very much for that piece and the new york times thanks for coming on the bulwark podcast

first time for juliana we will be uh talking to you soon thanks jim thank you all all right guys everybody we got a big one tomorrow we'll be back come check us out then peace she's electric she's in a family full of eccentrics she's done things i've never expected And I need more time She's got a sister And God only knows how I've missed her Out on the palm of her hand is a blister And I need more time And I want you to

know I've got my mind made up now but I need more time and I want you to say do you know what I'm saying

but I need more cause I'll be I want you to say, do you know what I'm saying? But I need more, cause I'll be you and you'll be me. There's lots and lots for us to see. Lots and lots for us to do. She's electric, could I be electric too?