The Bulwark Podcast - Neera Tanden: America's 'Daddy' Is in a Rut

Episode Date: December 10, 2025

Big Boss Trump, who claims the power to run the whole government via executive order and pushes all our allies around, is a man suddenly with no agency when it comes to the economy. He says the high cost of living is a Democratic hoax, or in true Christmas spirit, he’s back to blaming parents for spoiling their daughters with too many dolls. And while his approval rating slips into the the 30s, voters keep rewarding Democrats at the ballot box. On the healthcare front, Republicans have been promising an alternative to Obamacare for 15 years with nothing to show for it. Plus, the corruption of Trump & Co is so pervasive, it’s hard for voters to get their minds around it, and Dems have to go all-in on recapturing the Senate next year—which means winning independents and non-MAGA republicans in red states. Neera Tanden, at the Center for American Progress, joins Tim Miller. show notes The "Trump's Take" tracker at the Center for American Progress Tim and Andrew's 'Bulwark Take' after Trump's rally Tuesday night Exclusive $35 off Carver Mat at https://on.auraframes.com/BULWARK. Promo Code BULWARK F*%k your khakis and get The Perfect Jean 15% off with the code BULWARK15 at theperfectjean.nyc/BULWARK15 #theperfectjeanpod

What if this was someone in your family that had a chronic illness that they could not get away from? Millions of Americans live with a disease that has no cure. I was diagnosed with a rare form of sarcoma. The most immediate findings indicated that I should lose my leg. It ended up taking four clinical trials in 25 years to get me to this point. Cures are within reach. if we invest in funding for life-saving medical research that's needed to find them. Even if they're unsuccessful in my treatment that they will have learned from my treatment

that will be able to allow others to stand on my shoulders to be able to be helped. Join the Fight for Cures. Tell your elected representatives to support American medical research. Visit Unitedforcures.org slash action to send a letter today, paid for by Unified United for Cures Action. Hello and welcome to the Bullwark podcast. I'm your host Tim Miller, delighted to welcome back to the show, my friend, president, and CEO of the Center for American Progress.

I'm not going to do the whole bio. She's worked for every establishment Democrat out there, basically. I'm getting off. Okay, well, what kind of thing is that? It's near a tandem. You want the, you want the full bio? Do you want to go through your city? No, no. I'm just like, do we have to say establishment Democrat?

Could it would just say winning or some other word? Yeah, I never had any wins. So multiple runs in the White House. I had some losses. You did. We're not getting to talk about those. But, you know, multiple stints in the White House, unlike me. It's Nira.

I've got so much to talk to you about. I think we're going to start just by making fun of the Trump. rally yesterday, just kind of warm everybody's cockles a little bit. He went out to speak at a casino and the Poconos. Why not? Yeah. About the economy. And he, as Trump does, he kind of reads from the show notes live, where he's like, my team is telling me, you know, I got to talk about affordability, even though it's a hoax. And he talked about how Terrace was his favorite word. We don't play his voice here. So I'm going to just read this part to you. He tells people if they're concerned about affordability, they can give up certain products. You can give up pens.

kids only need one or two. They also don't need 37 dolls for your daughter. Two or three is nice, but you don't need 37 dolls. Nothing welcomes the Christmas spirit than more than telling little girls across the country that four dolls is too much. Tighten the belt. I guess I'd ask you, I mean, I just think this is like a fascinating journey for the Republican Party to go from, you know, the market works, et cetera, to really the big problem in America as people

want, little kids want too many dolls, you know, asking for five pencils is too much. I mean, it's really, it's like a fascinating journey. I mean, I sometimes wonder whether with the tariff policy and alienating our allies, we've been thinking about, you know, kind of the 1930s, but this is really more reminiscent of like an Oliver twist, 1880s kind of thing. Yeah, William Jennings, Brian. So, I mean, look, Dust Bowl. I hope Donald Trump takes this message, this really crucial economic message to every corner of the country. And I thought it was amazing that like, basically, as he was talking about his economic policy in a casino,

because that's not too on the nose. Basically, Democrats were winning this, you know, seat in Miami, the mayor's race, which they haven't won in 30 years. Now, it's a nonpartisan race, but in Georgia, they flipped a seat that was, you know, 12 points for Republicans or Republican district leading Donald Trump won it by double digits. So, you know, my basic take here is that when you call affordability a hoax, eventually the facts catch up with you, and even, like, you know, some Republicans can see this as cuckoo. That's my technical term for this.

Cuckoo. Yeah. You can convince your base who just has pickled their brains from watching Newsmax and Laura Engram that, like, you won an election you lost. Like, the hoax thing can work in certain cases because it doesn't affect their lives. They don't fucking know. Yeah. You know, they're like, the people I'm watching on TV are telling me that the, you know, Italians did spy satellite.

and you know took over the the voting machines and that sounds believable you can't really convince them that like things are cheaper when they're more expensive you know you can't really convince them that it's like okay you know to just be on board for donald and let your daughter sacrifice i mean it doesn't seem like he did much parenting of Ivanka and Tiffany i will say somebody with a seven-year-old daughter like this is my this is my thing that i could use most to radicalize her against this administration. It's like three dolls? Three? What are you talking about? Exactly. You know, he was at that time, I think he was out there doing his, you know, personal Vietnam where he's sleeping around and then getting STDs and calling the New York Post and telling them he was great in bed under a fake name. I think that when Ivanka was in the doll stage, like that's what Trump was doing, which might show why he's out of touch. But what's, what's fascinating about this discourse is that it's not happening over drinks that this is just. Two people totally super.

In the morning. I did have a couple of glass of wine last night. He's also obsessed with your old boss Biden. Did you watch it last night? Did you actually watch it? No. I just have to tell you it's like a mental health thing. I cannot watch like more than two minutes of Donald Trump at any period.

And like the only reason why I'm on X or Twitter or wherever we call it is that you can actually still get clips. I'm with you. I had no intention to watching it. My colleague Andrager said if I would watch it with him. he'd watch it and we can do a YouTube video. So I sacrifice for the people. And I got to tell you, I turned it on and within one minute, he's like talking about Sleepy Joe. And then like you, I only could handle about five minutes. And I turned it off and turned it back on and he's polling the crowd about whether it should be Sleepy Joe or Crooked Joe. You've been in politics

for a while. There seems to have a limited shelf life of effectiveness of that, of complaining about the last person. Yeah. I mean, the real problem for Trump on this, I think, is that, that he has gone around telling everybody in every way possible for the last year that he's in charge. You know, from day one, I'm in charge. I'm doing the most executive actions. I've been the most impactful president. I run everything.

I push around our allies. And then, you know, just in this one area, he's now, like, he has no agency. It's just like, so, you know, I actually think people could have kind of an adult conversation about, I mean, I don't think Joe Biden is responsible for this economy. I think the tariffs, the economy was pretty good last year. I mean, people didn't feel it as well, but the overall numbers were better.

But I'm not here to argue about that. I'm just here to say that you can't really go around telling the country, you're the big boss, and you're actually America's daddy. Okay, I just want to put that out there, how much they talk about that, even though that's really weird. And then say, when it comes to the economy, I don't control anything. The one thing I was, I told you I was smart about, like the one thing that I had experienced about as a businessman. To me, in some ways, it's kind of funny. And, like, this is, Trump has found himself like in a traditional politician pickle. Oh, yeah.

You know, like, a lot of times Trump finds himself in a pickle that, like, is unique to him because of, you know, whatever his behavior. This is like something, basically every president almost has had to deal with at some point or the other. And I just wonder, like, hearing just all the discourse about this, about, like, how does he talk about? How does you matter? Do you have any PTSD for Bidonomics, I'm wondering? Oh, my God. Well, I want to separate two things out because I think they do get really confused. Okay. One is that, you know, Joe Biden, we had COVID. We had this, you know, mass dislocation. There were supply chain problems that led to, you know, big price increases for people. It's not like Joe Biden came into the White House and thought, hmm, how do I raise prices for Bupall?

Actually, that's what Donald Drip did. Some might argue the stimulus was a little hot. Okay, sure, the stimulus was a little hot. Maybe you want to say the stimulus was a little hot. It was to actually address an economy that at that moment looked like it was cratering, a lot of data that was greatering. For sure. And so, okay, the stimulus was hot. So that contributes to inflationary impulse.

It's not like we came in and said, we're going to go just raise the price of goods, okay? That's actually what Trump did. He was like, I believe in tariffs. What do tariffs do? They raise the price of goods. It's like a paragraph to get to, we had a stimulus that was hot,

and then maybe that spent too much money, and then that has inflationary pressures. It's like one sentence to, I raise the price of your soccer balls and your coffee, you know? So I just think, though, challenge for Trump is he's more responsible, responsible for the anger people are feeling. And it's not just the terrorists. One big beautiful bill act is going to raise prices for health care and utility rates. So he has an agenda that

actually raises costs for people. And then he has to address that. And I think the real challenge for him is, you know, the policy cares about the most is the policy that is the least popular and is actually raising prices the most. It's like he would have to just disavow what he thinks, you know. I mean, He's now going through the motions. I totally understand the PTSD, which is, wow, this inflation thing is really bad. We have to communicate. We really care about it. But the real problem for Donald Trump is he can't even communicate, genuine care about an issue that isn't about his own ego.

So he has to say, I'm supposed to talk about how cost of living is high. But actually, it's a Democratic ghost. Actually, things are great. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, it's like anything. He's got a traditional politician's problem. but he just has it on steroids.

All right, guys, I've made no progress since yesterday. I did a little panic browsing on the Internet during dinner last night, but I still haven't bought a single gift. That's not true. That's not true, actually. But I don't know if there are any kids listening, so I can't reveal anything. I did one gift was purchased.

It's not looking great, though. I mean, if you're a last-minute shopper like me or frames as a solution with a gift that feels and is personal. As I have mentioned, here's the good thing about, or frames you need a gift for like a secret santa for somebody at work awesome you can get them an or a frame and fill it with pictures of you know i don't know work retreats of your or something silly or an inside joke old buddies from college perfect gift give him an or a frame go back through your archives put a bunch of pictures in there of you guys being bad when you're younger grandma

or a frame grandchild pictures done no matter who the gift is for or frame works because they got unlimited photos and video you just download the app connect to Wi-Fi and you can upload personalized photos before it ships when they open the box it's already ready to go you can share additional photos and videos effortlessly as zero goes on straight from your phone could even make that funny do it as a gag from time to time depending on who the gifts for and no matter what it's going to be something they're going to enjoy all year long For limited time, save on the perfect gift by visiting AuraFrams.com to get $35 off ORA's best-selling CarverMatt Frames, named number one by wirecutter.

They're using promo code Bullwork at checkout. That's A-U-R-A-Frams.com promo code Bullwork. This deal is exclusive to listeners, and frames do sell out fast. So order yours now to get it in time for the holidays. Support our show by mentioning us at checkout terms and conditions apply. This is going to continue to be the problem. up until next year. As you mentioned,

I used a couple of them. I just want to just throw out there also. Democrats overperformed in two Florida specials yesterday. They lost, but they did like eight, I think 20 points about better. You mentioned that Georgia State House. I just want to sit on this for one more second.

Trump won this district by 13. It got gerrymandered by the Republican, you know, majority in Georgia. And it was, it's like a mini Nashville. We were talking about the Nashville seat last week where Nashville like they did a pie,

you know, a pizza pie or that's like. Yeah, they divided up this. Yeah, the city. They did that for Athens. which is a college town, go dogs. And one of those little pizza pies didn't work and that backfired. So that's enjoyable. Susie Wiles has a solution for this.

She was on this very creepy kind of bizarro the view that would make me kind of deeply uncomfortable. And so everyone has to watch it with me. Let's listen to Susie. He's going to have a fun next year. But we're going to put him on the campaign trail too. Typically, just a little bit of campaign speak, if I may. Typically, in the midterms, it's not about who's sitting at the White House. It's you localize the election and you keep the federal officials out of it.

We're actually going to turn that on its head and put him on the ballot because so many of those low propensity voters are Trump voters. Yes, they are. And we saw, oh, we could go Tuesday, what happens when he's not on the ballot and not active? So I haven't quite broken it to him yet, but he's going to campaign like it's 20-20, again. Can he do that still? I guess is one question. Is he capable?

How are you feeling at the Center of American Progress about Susie putting Trump to work, getting him out there on the road a little more? I feel great. Look, they do have a quandary. But I think they sort of misunderstand the problem, I guess. I mean, to me, if I were Susie Wiles, I would be looking at those Trump voters who voted for Abigail Spanberger and those Trump voters who voted for Mikey Cheryl. I think the thing to think about just to be serious for a moment is that if you look at these

elections over the last couple of weeks, you know, there is really the potential of, you know, the opposition to Trump building a really big tent. You know, I mean, we get frustrated with mega voters, but there are non-Maga Republican voters. And they're also non-Mega, not even away Republicans, like the new Hispanic voters voted for in this time, for example. Exactly. Independent voters. People were just not into politics. We've seen, and that's another good example. In Miami, just last night, also in New Jersey, saw Latino voters really swinging back to the Democratic Party. So I think, you know, our focus should be still on building a really big tent because the challenge for Susie Wiles and

Republicans, it is a case that Trump has brought out those sort of low propensity voters in the past. But I think the point you were making earlier is, you know, those low propensity voters aren't like reading the New York Times every day. So, you know, they're not like what's happening in the Caribbean or whatever, you know, they're not hyper-focused on those issues. But what they are really focused on is whether their grocery prices are at $5 or $10 or $15, we to week, whether, you know, their rent went up. And, like, fundamentally, the real problem for Donald Trump is his policies have made affordability harder. They've raised the cost of living, not lowered the cost of living for working class people. And, you know, I think the fundamental

quandary for them is they care so little about working class people, actually. They think they get them on his theatrics or whatever, hating other folks, culture, that, you know, they, you know, they, have, you know, this administration is very different from the first term. They were actually, like, have past policies that make life worse for middle class and working class Americans. And so I think they're thinking, like, I just go put him out and we get them. But I think what they're misunderstanding is those voters have been voting on the economy and now they see him as a cause of their problem, not a solution.

Yeah. And health care also. They still, you know, they don't have a health care message. after 10 years, and you worked on Obamacare 100 years ago now in a different lifetime. And, you know, they still, you know, they still have had decade, like three House speakers, four maybe since Obama Care was passed and all of them promised an alternative. And there isn't one. And that's the thing.

I think that's really going to hit. And that's where I think, you know, while we're, I have some concerns about Democrats coming in a second. But while, you know, while we're glazing the Democrats, that's where the shutdown message who it worked, I think. Well, I recently wrote in the Wall Street Journal of all places that I actually think Democrats basically won the shutdown. Oh, interesting.

That's something you might have heard on this podcast a couple weeks ago that was negatively received. But anyway, you know, we'll see. History will judge, I guess. Yeah, I feel like history might be judging in real time, actually. I should have read your Wall Street Journal. I had to get rid of my Wall Street Journal. It was like triggering in the morning.

My father, God love them, would send me Wall Street Journal links to, like, rage bait me, I think unintentionally. And so I had to just let my subscription expire. Well, I'll send it to you for free. Okay. But the case I made was, you know, multifield making health care the prominent issue is actually crucial. Also, not for nothing, but the shutdown, like, baited Donald Trump into the posture of, of cutting SNAP benefits while he was building himself a gold ballroom with donations from literally the biggest companies in America. So I, which I actually think is, I fundamentally think

the ballroom is affecting his numbers. It comes up in focus groups. People just talk about it. So, you know, I think it was a hugely crucial issue. It really is important to remind people what you fight for in politics. And so I think the health care debate is a crucial one. And I just have to say that it's been literally 15 years of them trying to come up with an alternative to the Affordable Care Act. And each and every time, the only answer they come up with is actually raising costs for consumers. Senator Cassidy has a proposal that just shifts costs, has high deductibles, make people pay a lot more for their health care. So, you know, their answer to health care has always been to shift the cost to consumers. And I think at a time where cost of living is a huge problem, you know, that's just another example of how their answer is to not just ignore your problem, but to make it worse.

All right, y'all. It is definitely jeans weather down here in New Orleans. And what was I doing the other day? I was, I put on my top, you know, put on my little shirt, a little shacket. And I was looking through all of my various skinny jeans that I've collected over the years. None of them felt quite right. Turned to the closet. I was like, wait a minute, wait a minute.

I do got the perfect gene. You guys who've been listening to me for a while. I know I've been testing out something new, something little different from my identity, which is the bigger pant. The bigger pant. They're back in. That's what the kids are wearing. And so I got a perfect gene that fit the perfect style.

And let me tell you, I was looking good. Thought I looked hot. The perfect gene has redefined what jeans could be. No more saggy butts. Just pure, soft, stretchy perfection. Imagine denim so stretchy. It's yoga ready. Sharp enough to turn heads and comfy enough,

you'll forget you're even wearing them until somebody compliment you. The perfect gene has six fits, a size range from 26 to 50 inch weights, and lengths up to 38, giving you 5,000 ways to find your perfect match whether you're thick, short, skinny, tall, no matter what, and we love everybody.

We love all body types here. We're body positive. Even when I'm making fun of Mr. Bevino for being little and short, that's more about him, you know? If you're a short king, that's great. For a limited time, our listeners get 15% off their first order, plus free shipping at the perfect gene. Or Google the perfect gene and use code bulwark 15, 15% off.

That's 15% off for new customers at the perfect gene. nyc with promo code bulwark 15 after you purchase they'll ask you where you heard about them please support our show and tell them we sent you eff your khakis and get the perfect gene tied to all of this is the corruption stuff and um i promise this is my last this is my last compliment okay nara we can't get too can't get too high on our own supply i have to go but the center American Progress is doing good work on this. It's probably the issue I'm second most obsessed with behind the immigration stuff, which is

corruption and particularly as it relates to crypto. You've got a, we'll put up the link in the show notes for people. It's something called Trump's Take, where you try to assess what the amount of profits that his family is taken in during this administration.

You're measuring it over a billion. That's something that's not paper because it's in the shit coins. So, you know, if Melania coin goes down in value, could start to go the other direction eventually, but still quite a lot. That is why I do, I agree with you that the ballroom stuck. I don't know that this has stuck yet. And I'm wondering how you think that Democrats could and should be using, you know, the material you're putting up here, listing out all of the ways that his family is enriching himself, you know, to try to help break that through

a little more. Well, thanks for highlighting this. We are actually quite conservative on the way we assess these numbers so that they are kind of foolproof. But the bottom line is that unlike any president in history, this president is enriching himself through his office. You know, I think that this does have to be married with a positive agenda. You know, I think one of the challenges is a lot of people are like, oh, all politicians are crap now. We're seeing a level of corruption that I don't, I don't the, like, in anyone's, like, most creative thoughts in the Democratic Party they could come up with. And it's hard to explain to people. This is, like, a serious question.

It is. I was, I did one of these Gen Z podcasts with some, like, guy who's like, like, made money on crypto and didn't know what to do with himself. And he started a podcast. Like, interviews to MMA guys. I'm trying to get out of the bubble. Okay. I'm trying to get out of both. So I was like, okay, fine.

No, no, it's good to talk to other people. Yeah. So I did an interview. And he was like, I was like, man, you don't understand how bad the corruption is. And he's like, well, it's like, like, well, it's like, like, worse than Hunter Biden's and I'm like I like the scale is not even in the same universe and you're trying to explain it and it's almost it's almost so big that it's hard for people to believe it's true actually how much money they're taking yeah I mean there's the money he's getting the fact that

he basically took his biggest donor and had that person kind of control large swats of the government and just kill regulations or put people in jobs over agencies that he was that subject to regulation. I mean... And then multiple other guys, both Lutnik and Wittkoff's kids are literally in business with the Trumps. I don't even think the money

that the Wittkopf and Lutnik kids are making is in your total. So if you counted all of them, too, because those guys are all making bank. I think it was the best year ever for the Lutnik's kids. Exactly. Shocker.

Shocker. I know. And then also just like the way they're looking at Russia is like a business opportunity for their donors. It's so pervasive. and daunting, it is a little hard to, like, get your mind around.

My basic recommendation is that, you know, we have to do real work on what are the ideas that would actually stop this in the future and not just leave this to norms, but prohibit it, and really tend to try to build this idea that whether it's a Democrat or Republican, you shouldn't be able to profit off of public service. Now, I think we live in a cynical age, and people have watched too many episodes of House of Cards. And so they think kind of everybody does this in Washington. Well, we've seen the stock trading stuff. Yes, the stock trading.

And that's legitimate. And honestly, Democrats should have banned stock trading when we had the opportunity. And so I do think that the way to really make this most salient, and, you know, the Center for American Progress is working on ideas on this. You know, Democrats have to have an agenda that ban stock trades. that also just, you know, creatively thinks about how we end these abuses. And then people might give them a little bit more quarter to talk about this. I also think this will be a lot easier for outsiders to talk about. And there'll be a lot of outsiders challenging Republican incumbents the cycle.

My last point here is there's just so much of it, right? Like one of the reasons why we did this analysis of just the overall number is that it gives you one, like, entryway to pull it all together and say, you know, he's enriching himself by over a billion dollars. Because there's a story after story after story that becomes like a drip, drip, drip. So I think it's really all of those things. But I think actually people do care about this. They just need that example, like the gold ballroom, that I think crystallizes it.

I think that inverse, too. I don't, like, I don't know how you break this through. And Kentucky is, like, obviously, now a competitive state. But you see the picture, it was like a viral picture going around before. food bank line in Kentucky. I do think that at some level it's kind of like, okay, maybe he's not taking a $1.8 billion. Like, maybe it's half of what Kapp says. And his family's brought in $900 million.

And we have the longest food bank line people have ever seen. It's more likely to be like six times. Yeah, right. Sure, exactly. I'm just saying, let's get the better for the doubt. Let's say it's 10%. He's made $180 million. And meanwhile, they're making cuts that mean they're the longest food bank lines people have

ever seen in these parts of the country. I think you're absolutely right. Like, I think the thing about the shutdown was I think it's the juxtaposition of he was going to court to basically try to stop giving people food who are hungry in America while he was building a gold ballroom, taking a wrecking ball to the East Wing and building himself a gold ballroom. And I think it really is the juxtaposition of that. And I think it is, just as you're saying, food banks are expanding in America while he's taking all this crypto money. And on top of that, he's acting like there's no problem. Like, it's not actually harder for you. You're just wrong.

It's a fake delusion. Yeah, fewer dolls. Fewer pencils. How many dolls do the children of the people in that food bank line have? Because maybe they should be putting them on eBay. Too many. Apparently. I mean, the thing I think about fascinating is the pencils.

Like, pencils are like six cents now. I mean, I just, like, how did he go to pencils? He came up with the cheapest thing in America and was like, you have too many of those. I will say sometimes kids are little willy-nilly with pencils. My husband's out of town this week, so I was on homework duty last night. And, you know, I mean, she breaks the pencil. And it's like I want a new one. She doesn't like the eraser.

So I understand his feedback on that. I think my daughter's. You're like, yeah, yeah, let's discipline the kids, take away their pencils. They break that pencil. So let's just, fewer pencils. We're going to tighten the belt here. Even Donald Trump, I'm sure, the attitude that the kids have too many pencils. Clearly, that's the problem of America today.

Yeah, that is a, that's where the affordability crisis is. He's also running into some trouble with Jeffrey Epstein. I don't know if you saw that. We're nine days away from the supposed release date of that. Is there a Dem cut the car moment on this? Like, what do you think is next on the Epstein stuff? I think Donald Trump will be in the Epstein. files. It will like, I think it'll be that it was like it will look like he knew what was going on.

So, I mean, I think like the most obvious explanation for this whole situation where they're trying to ensure that these files never come to light is that, you know, we'll find out that Donald Trump was probably aware of some horrifying things. I mean, unless it. everyone is crazy. Like, why would you go to this level of obstruction to keep these files out? So, out of the public eye. I mean, the only group of people that he has consistently shown empathy for, though, throughout his life are men who are accused of sexual harassment and assault. Powerful men? I'd like to amend that. Okay. Because he's shown a tremendous amount of empathy for a woman, Gislane Maxwell.

Okay. For men, for men and one woman who are accused of sexual assault. People are accused of sexual assault. He's like, you know, could you put yourself in their shoes for once? Okay. And so, I do think it's possible. And, like, also, I mean, like, just like, just like, what is the explanation for the summer camp? Gislein Maxwell is in right now?

Licked. I mean, like, it's so interesting to me. I mean, I have to say that I have said this elsewhere, but I just find this Epstein situation, like, such a fascinating, like, mass psychology break, right? Because MAGA focuses so much all the time on pedophiles. Like, everyone's a pedophile. They call Joe Biden a pedophile. The whole thing was crazy. Everybody's a groomer. That was their foot word for a minute. Everyone's a grummer. Everyone's a pedophile. Every gay person. I mean, this is horrifying. They're just like a horrifying and it's like a thing they say all the time. And right in front of them, here are the facts. Donald Trump was like really good buddies with Jeffrey Epstein. I mean, we've all lived with Donald Trump for 10 years. Have you seen him look at Melania as adoringly as he looked as Jeffrey Epstein? He's never looked at her like the way he looked at Jeffrey Epstein in those pictures in the 80s where he's fake dancing. I mean, it's just like, come on, people.

Do we really think he had no idea what's going on? They were, like, friends forever. He has no idea. I mean, come on. And, like, why would we go through this year-long effort to obstruct, you know, everything going on that we have to have a house vote that he breaks with Marjorie Dealer Greed, his biggest supporter over Jeffrey Epstein? Like, it doesn't make any sense unless, you know, maybe they'll burn the file he's in. Who knows? But I'm looking forward to it.

Great. I'm glad you're looking forward to it. How do Dems deal with the, because obviously more information comes out and there'll be collaborators with Epstein across the political spectrum. I mean, like you worked for the Clintons, Bill, maybe, you know, at least dealt with him in some ways. Larry Summers was a cap. He had to leave. We saw his emails asking Jeffrey for dating advice for some reason. Like, how did Dems deal with situations like that as additional information comes out?

I mean, they should condemn people like, you know, like anyone who knows about sex. trafficking should be like an accomplice or in jail, right? You know, I mean, I think this is a thing. There was a widespread social sanction of Larry Summers. You know, he's basically asking dating advice from Jeffrey Epstein. After the Julie Brown article was out. After the Julie Brown article was out, after he'd already been convicted. So, you know, pretty bad. So the recent files on Jeffrey Epstein seemed to be a little bit exonerating around Bill Clinton saying he was never on the island. But whatever, let's get all the data out. And I think Democrats have been very clear about this. You know, let the chips fall where they may.

My other Democratic concern right now, this is an awkward transition. But we just, we are where we are. You're talking earlier about the Big Tent. You know, Jasmine Crockett has gotten into the race in Texas Senate. She's expressed some thoughts about maybe less excited about the Big Tent than you. There was a report from notice yesterday. The NRC apparently was roboc calling Democrats, urging them to call Crockett's office to tell her to run, and then connecting the caller to the office. They also ran and pushed around polls, showing her ahead to try to encourage her to win. I don't know if that affected her at all, but I think that tells you a lot about what

the Republicans think. Crocket said, when they tell us Texas is red, they're lying, we're not. The reality is most Texans don't get out to vote. people that I used to work with in the Texas House did everything they could to make sure they could suppress voices. I guess that's kind of true. But she, you know, then was on CNN talking about how like winning over Trump voters is not as important as getting out like base voters and people who didn't vote. Do you have concerns about all that? Like this feels kind of important, the Texas Senate race. Here's what I think everyone should look at, which is the state of Arizona,

right? You know, 10, 15 years ago, no one thought Arizona could. be a state in which you have a two Democratic senators and a Democratic governor. Arizona, it is a pretty reddish state. It has more Republicans than Democrats. It has a lot of independence. It's closer to Texas than, you know, lots of the country. You know, my basic take on 2026 is that I actually believe a real opportunity to create actual accountability for Donald Trump by taking back both the House and the Senate. So I just want to remind everybody, it's hugely important to take back the House, but if you want to put an end to the craziest loons being nominated and in our government, the way to do

that is through winning the Senate. It is a very hard map. It's not an easy map. But, you know, when you see these numbers out of Georgia, where Democrats are outperforming by 12 points, that does put states like, Iowa. Ohio, and even Texas in play, in my view. Yeah, and we're just seeing this swing. And the swing in that Tennessee, you know, again, this is a special special.

It's different than midterm turnout. It will be higher. But, like, in that Tennessee special, it was a 13-point swing. Texas, Trump won by 14 last time. But Cruz only beat All-Red by eight, eight and a half. And so, like, a 10-point swing from that Cruz all-red race puts Texas in play. Yeah, it's not crazy. It's not likely.

It's doable. It's not crazy. It's doable. I mean, Beto O'Rour came within two and a half points in 2018. Could this be a three-point better race period or environment than 2018? Sure, it could be. I think there's just like a basic fact here about the math of Texas. A Democrat to win in Texas, like a Democrat to win in Arizona, has to win, you know, basically almost all the Democrats, a lot of independence, and probably some Republicans.

So, and actually, I will say, better work did that. He was able to, he attracted a lot of independence and even some Republicans. And he got pretty close. In 18, it was not like that later, but it was definitely like that in 18. So I think the truth of the matter is, at least from my perspective, the job of the voters in a primary is not to make yourself feel good. It's not to be like, who, who, who, I mean, I like, what do I really like? it is in this environment, if you want to hold Trump accountable, the job of primary voters is to find the candidate who can win the general election. And I think that is what people will decide. And, you know, I mean, it's up to, I believe it's up to Jasmine Crockett and Tala Rico to make the case that they are the best people to win the general election. I don't think, like, there's no, primaries aren't participation trophies. Like, the job is, who cares if you win a primary if you just go crash out in the general. Now, I think Jasmine Crockett has, I mean, she is. is like a House member who has created this, like, entire whirlwind around her, and she has

a lot of followers. And so I think she'll probably see a primary is good for this. Voters will ask her over and over again, how are you going to win? Are you going to get independence? And I think, let's see how the primary goes. I agree with that. Just to be clear, I like Jasmine Crockett. I do, do. You know, I don't know her that well personally, but, you know, I've met her twice. And, like, very affable from St. Louis before she moved to Texas. people. You know, we both were born in St. Louis. And, you know, she's charming, obviously talented. Like, what I'm worried about is, like, the thing she's saying about the race. Like,

that's what worries me, right? Like, in that CNN interview, she was like, look, Beto only lost by three. And he won 65% of Latino voters and 90% of black voters. And so if we, like, turn out those voters, we can win. And I was thinking, well, but he lost. And that's a high number. we're going to get, you're going to get 65% of, of Hispanic voters? Like, that's a lot of work, right? That's a lot of, they're not just going to vote for you just because you're Democrat, right? Like, since 18, Hispanic voters have moved to the right significantly.

Now, they can tack back. They can tack back. Democrats can win them back for sure that that's not like a turnout game, really. That's a persuasion. Like, you've got to go persuade them and convince them. Sometimes I get a little bit concerned when you hear about, well, we just got to excite people and get people who didn't vote and turn out the people who didn't vote. And I'm like, that's important.

it's particularly important in like a close, if you're in Georgia, I'd be like that's really important in a state that's close. In a state like Texas, you've got to go win over people, the voter for Trump, period. Okay, like Texas hasn't elected a Democrat statewide in a while. And it's not just because people who are Democrats have been too lazy to vote in the last 30 years. Yeah. You can choose out a few more. There's some more Democrats you can find, but you've got to go find people vote for Trump.

That's all I'm saying. He's won three times. I think the really most important thing to think about is, You know, you have to really assess whether people who haven't voted are more liberal than people who have voted. And it might not be the case. But it might not be the case. It might be that they're just like happy with Republicans so they don't vote. I mean, in 2024, you know, I mean, this has been like a big raging debate in the Democratic Party over like, I don't know, forever of like, should you build a bigger tent or should you just juice out your turnout?

out. And the truth is that in 2024, in particular, it was the case that non-voters skewed more conservative than voters overall. Now, of course, it's a big pile of non-voters. So they're definitely non-voters who are more liberal who don't vote. And I'm sure people are like, well, let's just attract those people. But the truth is a non-voter is a person who you have not persuaded to vote. That's a great point. A non-voter is a person who didn't think it was so important to them to vote. So they are making a judgment about your candidacy. So it is persuasion to get them to come vote. Like they have to believe it matters to them.

I mean, look, to win in Texas, you have to do both things really well. You have to turn out your own voters. And this is the hard thing in Texas for Democrats. You have to turn out your own voters and persuade people. And I guess I would say, I hope Democratic voters in Texas give people the grace to be able to reach out to independence and some Republicans. I mean, I just say, in the data, we are seeing a cleavage between, you know,

non-Magger Republicans and Republicans. I mean, MAGA Republicans, you know, they're down the road with Trump. They blame Democrats for affordability or think it's a hoax. They blame them for the premium tax credits. Or don't care. They're happy people being deported.

That's all that matters. They're happy across the board. But there are people who voted for Trump, the non- kind of MAGA voters, to, you know, when it comes to the premium tax credits, they blame Donald Trump for what's happening right now. The things that are bringing his numbers into the 30s are people who voted for him, who don't like what he's doing. So I think a lot of time Democrats confuse MAGA voters with the entire, with everyone who's voted for Trump. And that is just definitely not the case,

any big tactical mistake. It really limits our ability to have gigantic elections. And, you know, again, I'll just say Abigail Spanberger, Mikey Sherrill. did this. It's not like it never happened. It just happened a few weeks ago. Another heated agreement. I just taped with the little teaser for everybody. I just did Gavin Newsom's podcast, which will be out tomorrow. And I just did a big rant about this on the Senate. You know, he was like, rightfully gets a ton of credit for what they did with redistricting. Yeah, he should. He deserves a ton of credit. It was a big risk. He took it and he won. And I gave it to them. And because of that, in part, in large part, because of it, really, in addition to all Donald Trump's mistakes that you just laid out, like Democrats are in pretty

good shape to win the House. It's not done. Nothing's done. You've got to work for it, whatever, but Democrats are pretty good shape. It's a fine midterm to win the House. That's fine. But you can't be happy, like excited about the midterm unless the Democrats figure out a way to get the Senate. And that is going to require, like you said, Iowa, Ohio, or Texas. Like, if Trump is in that bad of shape, like if the Democrats should, because I think it would be a sign that the Democratic Party is not healthy. If you can't get to 50 senators in a year where Donald Trump is, you know, getting shlonged across the country. I mean, I'd put it this way. I mean, I'd put it this way. I guess, which is, I mean, it is a tough map.

But I think it's a tough map. But what I'd say is post 2030, the Democratic Party is in big trouble in the Senate if it can't win states like Iowa and Ohio. So 2026 is kind of the perfect time to start building in those states. And so, and you've great candidates running in Iowa, you know, Zach Walls, others are running. And then in Ohio, Sherrod Brown is running. And, you know, he's a great candidate. So we should try to create the conditions where people can win those states. I have three rapid fire.

I just need to hear what Nira thinks about all these topics. Number one, the Republican, you're Indian American, the kind of Republican fight about Indian immigrants that's happening, the racist fight of Indian immigrants. You saw that on that leaked text chain or something really disgusting racist comments. But Indians, they're like all these, like, concerns at H-1B visas and, and, you know, whether too many Indian Americans are coming here, you're hearing some really gross stuff. Simultaneously, there was, like, an article recently about how Republicans should be reaching out to Indian Americans because they're traditionally conservative. I'm just, I'm wondering what you make about that whole convo happening on the other side. Honestly, I think this is true for Indian Americans, but it's fundamentally true for, like, all people of color in America, which is essentially that there is a white, nationalist element to the MAGA movement, and, you know, like, you're just not going to be

welcome in all corners. Like, I just think people have to kind of put themselves in pretzels if they think that mega voters who are, you know, basically upset that the country is not more white or going to be happy with the Indians. Like, I'm not sorry. It's like, we're still brown to them. I don't know what to tell you. You know, it's just a different shade than the literature.

But we're all brown. It's like, that's how it's going for you. That's great. Okay, we'll see if you do as good on the other two topics. Do you have any hot takes? I interviewed former vice president on her book tour. Do you have any hot takes on the Kamala book and book tour that you want to share? I love Kamala.

You know, I don't know what to say. I love Kamala. I'm just going to say, you know, I mean, she's a super fun, interesting, awesome person. I think it's important for her in the next phase to pick some fights. I understand she wanted to write her book. But, you know, like, I think over the next three years, people are, everyone's looking for fighters. And she, she's a good fighter. So I hope she will fight a little bit more.

You know who's a fighter near you? And I was saying, I did tell you. I'm anonymizing this. But, you know, everyone's how people criticize you. Do you know that? Do people criticize you for time to time? I have never heard that. I have somebody.

I had somebody criticized you to me recently, and I was like, here's the thing. Nira has been fucking in the fight since 2015 every day. You might not like every choice, but like, you could have, after Hillary lost, you could have went and whatever, gone to work for Cisco. I could have eaten bonbons. You could have gone to work for Cisco. I was eating bonbons. Yeah.

Here I am fighting. Where Jake Carney go, Amazon? That's a great job. He seems to be having a good life. I don't know. I haven't checked in with him, but you didn't do that. You've been in this, in the grind. And I appreciate you for that.

topic you travel a lot we all do we have a secretary of transportation uh that has had some interesting things first he admonished us all that we must wear suits and dress up again for travel okay and if we want to have the golden age of america it's up to us to look nice that was that that was like two weeks ago he says that in an interview i feel like we got a little bit of a mixed message though yesterday because they're at ragan airport and they have a pull-up bar and they're telling us now we're going to work out at the airport that was a little confusing to me and he was on Some guy, I don't know, some influencer, right one guy. And they're on Maria Bart Romo this morning.

And to Maria's credit, this tension also, she noticed this as well. I'm like, how are we supposed to deal with this? And I'd like to hear their answer. I want to commend Secretary Duffy and Secretary Kennedy for this initiative. You think the goal here is not for people to get sweaty in airports. Nobody wants to be sitting next to somebody smelling on an airplane. But. No sweating, Brian.

But, you know, even micro workouts are valuable for humans. What do you think? Do you think that's going to be the turnaround for our golden age? Micro workouts at Reagan. You just go there to pull-ups real fast. No sweating. Making America healthy again, hashtag. Okay.

I just have to say I had like about of unimaginable rage about this like wearing this suit thing. Okay. I'm just going to confess I wear sweatpants on planes. All right. I also, I wear socks and shoes. I know people are upset about the open. feet. I don't do that, but I wore sweatpants. And what I want to say, Secretary Duffy, is let's not make air travel like a hellhole, okay? It's not, it's not fun to go on planes all the time.

So, like, I'm going to wear my sweatpants if you're going to make it uncomfortable. All right? You do a little bit more of your job to make it a lot easier for people to be on planes. Maybe the seats could be a little wider, you know, people could be a little bit more comfortable. But if you're going to stick people in these small seats and pack us in, then we're not going to wear suits. We're going to wear sweatpants and sweats shirts. Okay? So, like, you do your job and make travel better and then maybe everyone else to do their job. But don't make us wear suits while you make our lives miserable.

That was what I had to say. I knew you'd have something on that. We didn't prep this. I was just like, you know, I'm sure Nair is going to have something on that. this one. And so I went in blind and you exceeded all my expectations. Let's just hope I'm not fired at the end of this whole podcast here. Who would fire you? You're the president and CEO. That's just I can tell. Oh, yes. Good point. Is there a secret cabal we need to know about? Okay. We've been hearing about that Q and on. What was it called where Hillary was taking the face of

the babies of the skin off their face? Pizza gate. Yeah, but she was also doing, oh, there was a word for, I used to know this word. Oh, I can't even remember. A lot of things have happened in the last 10 years. Anyway, okay. You're in charge. So I think you're fine, right? We're good.

Yeah, and you've got to tell that person is a little critical to get their butt in the ring, too. I did. You better believe, Nira. You better believe that I did. Okay. I got hot. I got a little hot in your behalf. Thank you.

Anytime, girl. Everybody, appreciate you, Nira Tannen, Center of American Progress. Go check out the Trump take. What was it called? The Trump takes. Trump's take. Trump's take. Bullwork takes is a different podcast, which you should subscribe to.

Trump's take is the Center of American Progress. They're doing great work. And we'll be seeing me soon, all right? Merry Christmas. All right. Merry Christmas. Happy all it is. We still say Merry Christmas.

We do. Bye. Everybody. We'll see you back here tomorrow. Peace. When it's tall in on the street lamps, they seem an awful lot like spotlight. Yeah, sometimes shot them and gets up tight, running numbers between bars, running girls between the cars.

Oh, and sometimes Sholome feels alright All right Solomon and ice Just like a lover Oh last winter there was weather And his eyes They ice right over

They cast another's in the corner And he's asking for a day These shooters driving around and coming down trying to hook up with an entrance ramp. A tramp's like us and we like tramp. Yeah, Salome's got something in his sweatpants. Yeah, Holly was supposed to be a CCD, but she was walking around on shady streets. I was just looking around for something, she could take up to a party. It's not like she's enslaved, it's more like she's enthralled.

She don't eat up, but she likes it. Yeah, so she always makes that call. First, it makes her feel tall, and then it makes her feel small. And it's all a sweet, fleeting feeling. We did the bed called stealing, and they're dancing on the ceiling, and you're dead right we dance. Salome's got something in his sweatpants. The Borg podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brough.