The Bulwark Podcast - Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives

Episode Date: March 6, 2025

Donald Trump is hurting the American people. The DOGE cuts are not only waging war on jobs, they're also harming the American public and undermining the safety, health, and economic well-being of everyday Americans. And by cowering to his favorite bully in Moscow, Trump is prepping the US to be a subservient partner of Russia. Plus, John Fetterman joins Tim to share his opposition to the campaigns against both transgender athletes and soldiers, and to chastise Dems for the way they received the POTUS in Congress. Sen. John Fetterman and Neera Tanden join Tim Miller. show notes Fetterman's tweet after the Senate blocked a ban on transgender athletes  Fetterman's video on Trump's trans military ban  Fetterman's tweet after Trump's address to Congress  Neera's Center for American Progress 

Hello and welcome to the Bored Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We've got a double header today. Senator John Fetterman up in segment two. But first, I'm delighted to be here with the former domestic policy council director in the Biden administration. She's now back as CEO for Center for American Progress, it is the great Nira Tanden. What's up, Nira? Well, we got a lot of problems. That's what's up. That's what's up.

We have a lot of problems. We're going to get into the problems. We're going to spend most of the time on the problems. I first have two backward looking things for people. Number one, for newbies, for new listeners who haven't heard this before, my full origin story. I just want to remind people that Nera being denied a cabinet position for mean tweets was the beginning of my radicalization.

And now we have Gropi McHairsbluray leading the Department of Defense, but yet people couldn't confirm Neera to the cabinet because, I don't know, she said a couple mean, deservedly mean things about Lindsey Graham. It was outrageous. And I just have to wonder how you controlled your rage watching these dopes be confirmed without any issue. Well, if I had actually known that the cabinet nomination problem, that whole fiasco was actually contributing to your radicalization, I would have actually thought it was worth it maybe. It was.

I was ready to go into battle. I was going to put on, you know, like a sword and shield with your face on it. I mean, you kind of did, so I really appreciate it. My actual take on all of this, when it actually happened, was that it was kind of bullshit, right? So what was really happening at that time is a bunch of Republicans who had just voted against Trump by voting for impeachment were scared shitless of the Republican base. And so they

used my nomination as a way to show that they were still Republicans and that the rationale, the rationalization was obviously ridiculous since each one of them just voted for some insane lunatic who's like, their mean tweets were like the nicest things about them, right? They were just wrong scoundrels, corrupt, ridiculous people who don't care about policy, in fact, really just want to use the government to hurt people. So I mean, I think it just caused the charade, you know, but I knew it was a charade at the time. Like it was ridiculous that people who were defending Trump and all of his tweets for

the last four years before that somehow were able to read all of my tweets when they could never have read. Right, it is. read. It was interesting. They were on some special Twitter where they're only getting what you were saying and not what Donald Trump was saying. I know. That's why now I'm like, hey, I'm tweeting. Maybe a Republican Senator will see it. Well, that was, yeah, they had you favorite it. And you've been sending some good ones. All right, my other backwards looking thing, you're the first Biden administration official

I've had on since January. And I'm just wondering kind of how you're feeling about it. Oh, shit. That was a mistake for me. I should have been the first. I know, sorry. Sorry, but like, I don't know, like you're looking back now, I just, I'm wondering how the feelings are. I mean, you know, I mean, do we have seven hours? I mean, like I need some therapy for this. I feel a range of emotions. I feel, you know, we tried to do a lot of important things.

I do worry that perhaps we didn't solve enough problems. There were issues that we should have taken on or we took on too late. You know, I think we took on immigration too late. I think we should be self-critical about that. I don't think it's an excuse for the insanity we're seeing right now, but I also think that we should... We have to be clear-eyed about what went wrong, what went right. The president did deliver on a lot of things, and we have to understand why some of that resonated and some of that didn't. I mean, I'm really struggling on the economy, for example, and just, you know, you know me, I'm 100% candid. You know, we

had a message for working class people. That message was we have a trillion dollars investments. Most of those, most of those investments are translating into jobs for working class people. 75% of the jobs were for people who don't need a college degree, but that didn't resonate, and why didn't it? I think this probably gets into the future of the Democratic Party, but I think we have to really think through why some of the things we did didn't work, didn't resonate. Obviously, we had some messaging challenges. Messengers challenges or messaging challenges?

I will say messaging. You can say messenger. That's up to you. I will say messaging. What were your messaging challenges, do you think? Well, I think it was hard for us to break through. This is just a huge thing. In America, Ezra Klein has written and talked about this. I do think politics today is about, everything is about eyeballs. And being able to attract eyeballs. Just to step back, I think we think of politics

as like ideology and biography. We look at politicians through the lens of those traditional dynamics. And I think those are important dynamics. But the ability to attract attention and keep attention is another important facet of political leadership today. And I just think President Biden was a, you know, he would have been in politics a long time.

He's done a great, you know, I believe he's done great service to the country, was heroic in the legislation he passed, but we could not figure out how to break through the media cycle in the same way that, you know, obviously Trump does like, you know, every day before 8 a.m. Well, that leads to my last burning question going backwards. I just had to ask you, which was I still don't really understand. Was that why he went out for the first debate? I still

don't understand why he went out for the first debate. I think that it actually is the great debunking of the idea that there was some conspiracy to hide his mental decline. I'm like, well, if there was a conspiracy to hide his mental decline, why did they agree to the earliest debate in history? But I still don't really quite understand why you did. I'm like, well, if there was a conspiracy to hide his mental decline, why did they agree to the earliest debate in history? But I still don't really quite understand why you did. I'm just going to be like 100% honest. I mean, I don't know. You're curious too? Like, I wasn't in the political strategy meetings. I was domestic policy advisor. I was doing my domestic policy.

I just thought you might have heard some buzz. I don't know. I mean, I think genuinely they thought thought like what I was told is they thought That one of the reasons why the race was where it was was because people were not Actually thinking Trump was gonna be the nominee or they weren't really Identifying that he could actually be President so it's important to join the race Right and like this is what I was told inside like a reason to do this was to show

race, right? And like, this is what I was told inside. Like, the reason to do this was to show, put them both on stage, have a debate, then you think the kind, then you really think of Trump as possibly president. So they were definitely not thinking that it would go, you know, like, I think they thought the debate would, would go well. So well, I don't think McDonald's itching to come on the pod. So I guess I'll have to learn about the answer in the books, but I'll take your word for that. I'm sure some books will come out. That'll tell me the truth. I'm going to learn. I'm going to learn a lot in these processes in the books too.

All right. Okay. Now we are where we are. I guess I want to start first with the foreign policy, even though you're a domestic policy person, you're banned by Russia. That's in your that's in your bio. I like that. I know I'm like, you know. I consider it a badge of honor.

Are you concerned about what that means for your domestic security now that we've decided to side with Russia? What do you make of what has happened in the last week? Obviously, it's been a long time coming, but it's become particularly acute since Friday. I think this is the most sort of disgusting display of American weakness in my lifetime. And you know I think this the thing that Trump is doing is he has like a lot of bluster and he yells a lot of people but when you just ignore the bluster what he is actually doing is breaking the transatlantic relationships so that we can kowtow to Russia, right? There's no demands of Russia. He just wants to normalize relations with Russia. I mean, this is just a bonanza for Russia, and they give up nothing. And I think this is like one of the

challenges with the media is that they are hyper focused on the optics of like the meeting with Zelensky and whether he was wearing a suit or not. But what was fundamentally. Who had the temper tantrum first. I know who had a temper tantrum first was it all. I mean this is the whole challenge with a lot of the media which is obviously just theater criticism instead of like political analysis or even substance. But the truth of it is that the Trump administration, the goal of the Trump administration is not to demonstrate the United States' supremacy over Russia, and it's our general opponents, but actually to, you know, kind of be a subservient partner.

And I think that we should step back and just recognize that, again, for all his bluster, this is weakness, this is cowering, this is against America's interests, of course, but I think fundamentally that Donald Trump has met the bully that he cowers to, and it is Vladimir Putin. Yeah, we have some other news on this front since I taped the last pod. The administration is planning to revoke temporary legal status for about a quarter million Ukrainians who fled the conflict, adding insult to injury.

French President Macron has spoken about how they are now planning for Europe to go at this alone in a prime time address to France, to his nation. Did they look at the nuclear umbrella of France would actually protect other European countries, which means that essentially they do not believe the United States will defend other NATO countries, other European countries? Yes. A rational decision, but also really horrifying. I mean, just unbelievable.

Again, it's like the kind of thing that you imagined for a movie. Like, really, it's the French president saying, our nuclear umbrella will protect you from the Russians because we don't believe that America will anymore. Yeah, and I think it's also important to remember, or actually for all of us to really try to focus on not just it's important that we have these alliances, but why these alliances matter, right? So why does it matter that we have this really strong relationship with Europe to people? And just as a reminder,

we have intelligence sharing with many of our allies in Europe. Americans lives have been saved because we share intelligence. They have shared intelligence with us that have disrupted terrorist attacks that have protected American lives overseas. And I just want to say when we get to a place when European countries do not want to share intelligence with us because they are worried that we could possibly share it with Russia. That will mean Americans are less safe.

When defense contractors in Europe, their stock is tripling because Europeans are going to buy from defense contractors in Europe, I just want to remind secretary of senators from Alabama, Mississippi, that those defense contractors are going to be, you know, basically less profitable in the United States. Now, it's not like liberals love every defense contractor, but I think someone should raise these issues with senators, Republican senators. You know, the breaking up of these alliances is also, is you know, I think we have to digest it and understand it will have consequences for American security, for Americans, the price of goods, trade, the American dollar. There's a whole range of impacts from the, you know, assaults on

our allies. I mean, the whole world is crazy when you're angrier at Canada and England and France than you are at Putin, who's a terrorist killer who invaded a country. And I just think we have to make the consequences of those decisions clear. Among those consequences, you mentioned the economic again, you know, we were taping this in the mornings, you never know what happens and we get a bounce back in the afternoon, but the markets are down once again, this morning, they're down

significantly over the course of the past week. There are some indications that there are going to be job losses coming, you know, based on report, consumer spending numbers are down. I mean, like the economic, like impending potential catastrophe that has been unleashed in six weeks is like, I mean, I have TDS, but it's even kind of worse than I expected. Oh, yeah. I mean, I definitely thought for all these people on Wall Street and elsewhere who were like, oh, it's going to be fine because he's going to be reined in by the market and he'll never want the stock

markets to crash. It's like nobody is safe. If you think that he's not going to do what he wants in his second term because he's concerned about the market, which I think he described these gigantic crashes as a little bit of an adjustment. I mean that little bit of an adjustment. You know, I mean that little bit of an adjustment. Are people losing their jobs? Are people having to pay a lot more? So I think this is a crucial issue about what, you know, a lot of people are talking about,

which what does the Democratic Party need to do? And I think the most important thing an opposition party needs to do is to drive the connection between the policies and the impact on people's lives. I think we could have a long debate about the American Rescue Plan. And I know there were critics of it. It was trying to save the economy. But one of the challenges of it is that the, you know, we passed the American Rescue Plan. Plan and again I think it did really crucial work to save the American people but we took an act early in the administration and then we had inflation and Republicans were able to make an argument about how ARP was actually driving inflation. Now again you know the Fed did a lot more than the ARP, etc.

But here you have Trump's actual actions on tariffs driving prices up and also threatening a lot of chaos and ultimately, you know, people will lose their jobs in a range of sectors because prices are too high. And this is the number one job of an opposition party, to draw the connection between what Trump is doing and how it affects you as a person. And I think that the challenge for everybody is that he's doing so many things, he's violating the Constitution, etc. But I think a very simple frame is what is the action he is taking today that makes your life harder, that makes

a working class person's life harder, that makes any American's life harder. Because as you know, just to get into narrative, what the right has done over the last four years with Joe Biden was develop this whole archetype of, you know, there's this government, this giant Goliath that is using the Justice Department. I mean, I was always confused because either Joe Biden was like a puppet or he was a socialist mastermind. But either way-

It was tough. Depended on the day. But there was a nefarious big government effort to harm this person, take away the rights of this person, you know, take away the rights of this person. Now, sometimes it was the Justice Department prosecuting a person who, you know, invaded the Capitol on January 6th. But, you know, they had this kind of David versus Goliath narrative. And my view is every day we have David versus Goliath.

Every day, Donald Trump is hurting the American people, individual American people, like veterans who are really trying to help address veteran suicide, who he fires and then rehires. And you know, even when it comes to Doge, I think we really have to be hyper focused on the impact on the public, what it means for people. And you know, I'll just give you an example that just scares the shit out of me.

So if you don't mind, last fall during that campaign, I was the domestic policy advisor, I was doing domestic policy work. And when the hurricane hit North Carolina, it took out this plant, it's called the Baxter plant. That plant produced 60 percent of the IV bags in America. So all of a sudden, we could have been facing a massive shortage of IV bags.

And just to say, IV bags are pretty important in the whole surgery thing, okay? So I and others will start working kind of round the clock with people at FDA and this agency no one's ever heard of called ASPR at HHS and you have career professionals who are working around the clock to ensure that we're bringing in the right kind of IV bags from around the world from safe suppliers so that you know there's a little disruption but you never heard

of anyone dying from the lack of an IV bag in the United States. Now, a couple of weeks ago, most of those people were terminated on a Saturday night. The Asper people. The Asper people and some of the FDA people. And we have drug shortages all the time. A year ago, we had drug shortages of pediatric cancer drugs. So we have a drug shortage, and I genuinely don't know who is going to protect us from that, right? Who in the federal government is actually going to work on that problem? This is a whole issue with HHS. You know, they're playing with lives. So I think that's a job of all of us. We're going to do a lot of this work at the Center for American Progress

to really drive the stories of how a person who's terminated, what it means for your protection, your safety, your health, your economic wellbeing. And I personally believe that when people, when you have the amalgamation of these harms, that that's the story we need to tell. You were working on all this stuff closely, right? I think the other misconception is that all these people are upper middle class nerds

that live in DC. Right? And when you're having a huge cuts at the VA, huge cuts at some of these other places, right? One of my Uber drivers was driving me, I'm going to do a Tom Friedman, was driving me. He used to do background checks. The people that do the background checks for the government are everywhere. It's just random jobs you don't think about. These are hitting all of these, and obviously it's going to hit Maryland, Virginia disproportionately, but it's hitting all of these other communities too. I think

that those are other people to elevate, I think. Absolutely. And look, they're now going after, they're going to shut down a range of social security offices around the country. Those social security offices are about how you get the benefits you're supposed to get, your earned benefits of social security. So, you know, I think the truth of this is that Trump's crazy You know his his antics is sort of everyday antics can't let us Forget the real harm to people and again, you know, we have had some successes beating this guy Things are different. They are dramatically worse than his first term beating this guy. Things are different. They are dramatically worse in his first term. But I am really proud of the fact that the Center for American Progress was a real leader

of the effort to defend the Affordable Care Act from Trump's assaults, his effort to repeal it. And just to remind everyone, and I think this is a hugely important lesson for us as well, the Affordable Care Act, unfortunately, was not popular when it passed. It was not popular from the day it passed until Donald Trump tried to get rid of it. And when he tried to get rid of it, we as an opposition were able to communicate to the country how many people will lose healthcare, 23 million people across the country would lose healthcare. And it country would lose healthcare and it became much more popular and it actually cleavaged Republicans and you know

everyone talks about John McCain but the reason you know people forget 10, 11, 12 Republicans voted against that bill even in the House and that happened because it was massively unpopular even amongst 50% of Republicans wanted to keep the ACA by the end of that debate. And that is a job in front of us. It is to show the consequences, it is to demonstrate the real harms, and it is to say, you know, none of you have like magic boots around here. You have to deal with political constraints just like the rest of us.

Donald Trump is not some magician. He cannot just make everything change. Republican House members, Republican senators are going to face voters. And it is up to us to show those voters the consequences of their actions. It is not hard. Do you have any tactical thoughts? I mean, this is, you know, you're back now. You're back in politics role, not in policy role.

I'm here to think tank. We do both. You do both. You're right. You're right. Okay. I'm here at a think tank, we do both. You do both, you're right. You're right. Okay, I'm sorry. But let's be real. You're the head of the think tank.

There are thinkers at the tank that are doing the policy stuff. You got to do the politics. You've mentioned a couple of times. We're talking specifically about, it's a broad group, but it's like one group. It's mostly non-college voters of all races, more men than women, but some women, people that don't consume the bulwark or New York Times or CNN for that matter. I know. So sad.

I know. It is sad. I mean, I guess probably a better chance of consuming us than CNN or the New York Times, but you know. But I don't think they consume anything. I'm not saying this to make you seem cool or anything, because I definitely know you're not cool. But my son, who's online all the time,

I was like, I'm going to do this podcast. He was like, oh, he's cool. He's 19. He's like a mom. What's up, teenage Tandon? I tell my husband, he's always like, you have two core fan bases, nerdy 19-24-year-old old boys and like 60 year old plus women. Oh my God.

Those are the people that stop me the most. Well, can I tell him, you described him as a nerd, he'll be like, I don't want to be associated with you ever again. Okay, sorry, I don't know him, I don't know. He's not a nerd. Maybe he's just a very cool kid that also likes the bullwork, also possible.

This is what's cool about you, he's actually not a nerd. He doesn't like, he's not like, you know, he doesn't like watch political podcasts. He actually, you know, whatever. So this is what actually leans into what I think, which is like our tactics, which is we have to figure out how we get these stories of harms to people, everyday Americans, working class Americans. People are like, who's our best democratic leader to fight Donald Trump? I understand people are really scared and want leaders and are anxious and gnashing

their teeth all the time, but I actually think our best voices to be clear about what Trump is doing is not another politician but actually an everyday American who's victimized by what Trump is doing, by who is scared about what Trump is doing, who's harmed by what Trump is doing and that can be you know a working-class person, it can be people who look like your friends and neighbors. They are the best messengers and those are the messengers we need to work on getting out through all our channels

and try to get into channels where people aren't watching news every day. That's a lot of the work that Center for American Progress Action Fund, headed by Navin Naik, will be doing a lot of that work to ensure that we are spreading the word of how people are impacted by Trump, everyday Americans, across all of social media platforms we can. But really, you know, the most important thing people are always like,

what can we do? I've called my member of Congress five times. I actually think what the right did over the last decade is they made their activist news amplifiers. They'll take an article, they'll send it to all their friends and neighbors. As you know, when someone sends you an article, you tend to believe it more because you trust that person. We're really trying to engage in telling all your friends and family, your neighbors, your cousins and those in North Carolina, because they have an important center race. Spread information. Spread information, not on how outrageous Trump is and what a jerk he is and what a

bad guy he is, but actually what he's doing to people. On the bad shit that's happening, yes. To people. Yes. Because I do think people are like, oh yeah, he was bad and we still elected him. Yeah. Share my rants if you want, but that's not really going to do you any good. Yeah, share what is happening to people.

I totally agree. To an actual person and tell a story. You know, there's this veteran who worked in, you know, there's a story about a veteran who was in Iraq and he's working, you know, he worked at the VA. He's basically helping patients. He's worried about losing his job. And you know, I mean, do we really think that that's the person that like,

we really want victimized today, you know? Is that the person that's to blame for our $32 trillion debt? Like, I don't think so. Exactly. I hear you all that, but here's my one push I go down politicians. Neera is pissed.

You know how I know Nira is pissed? Because I follow you on social media and I can see your rage and you got denied a cabinet spot because of your rage and it was righteous fucking rage. And I will go to battle for you. And the number of people that are Democratic politicians that have Nira level rage, I feel like I can count on one hand, maybe two hands. Why? Well, we're gonna have one of them,

JB Pritzker, a cap in a few weeks. Okay, great. I'm very excited to have him here because I think he is channeling people's anger and right candor and honesty about what's happening. And Trump is lying to you. He is hurting people. He's very clear in his language.

I guess while we're on rage, I have two other personal questions for you. I want you to rank who you're the most angry at. When your blood really starts to boil, when you think about a person or a group of people, who is making your blood boil the most? I'd like to hear a top three, but I'll take one if you only have one. I think really every Republican who lectured a Democrat about norms and proper behavior, you know, I might be a little bit focused on that.

Roger Wicker, all the random Republicans. All of these people who are like, you know, Biden didn't call us about something and that's like socialism. And then they're just on a dime willing to basically bend and you can- But when you talk about that group of Republicans, who is it, who are you envisioning in your mind's eye? But now you're basically saying, will you please say Susan Collins so

that I can reaffirm this? No, it's different for all of us. It's Dave McCormick for me. Everybody has their own triggering person. Dude, though, Tom Tillis is coming up close behind. Okay. That's a good topic. Yeah, Tom Tillis.

Let's go with Tom Tillis because you has a Senate race and right now he's acting like there's no general election. He only has to worry about a primary, which means he's actually thinking every Democrat North Carolina is a sucker. And my view of that is you should prove him wrong by actually trying to engage your friends and neighbors and telling them there is actually a Senate race and he actually is accountable to the entire state, not just a Republican base. The Genocide Joe people in your top three or do they not?

Do they follow? I mean, they're not in my top three because, you know, I honestly believe many people were anxious about the war. I just wish they would be a little bit more vocal. I mean, I do think people should be protesting. Trump. Trump. Trump. Sometimes. That would be an interesting idea. Maybe protest Trump and he's trying to purchase

Gaza. Okay. I joked earlier about whether you are worried about your legal status here since you've been banned by Russia, but like seriously, now you're the head of a, you're a target. And a lot of people out there are worried about Ed Martin and Pam Bondi and the lawless kind of actions that we're seeing. How worried are you about this administration coming after political folks? I am very worried about this administration coming after political folks, but I really want to separate this out because I do think their fear and intimidation is a tactic to silence people.

And I do think there are democratic leaders who say, oh, maybe we shouldn't protest because that'll be an excuse for them to use martial law. And we cannot have pre-cowering, pre-obayance. So, you know, I'm a little worried that, that the more effective we are, the more they'll come after us. But I think you cannot be scared. If you let them get into your head that they will scare you, you'll come back a little bit from your criticism.

You'll not protest, instead of protest, you'll take actions. And this is exactly how democracies fail. So my view is I'm going to fight like hell. I'm going to act like this is still a democracy and I can fight like hell. And if they come at, you know, I'm not going to be insane, but if they come after me, then, you know, I'm going to expect that there are other fighters in this army that we're in. And they will use that as an argument for the rest of the country that we've gone off the deep end. I knew that'd be your answer. That's why I asked that. All right. I've got Fatterman up next. Do you have any questions for him? Senator for American Progress, do you have any concerns,

anything you'd like for me to raise? I feel like you'll channel many of my questions. Okay. Thank you for the trust and thank you to the fucking awesome son that you've raised who is like obviously keg parties and like hanging out and dating people and very popular. That was worth the embarrassment of being called a nerd. I'm sure you're very popular, very smart, very engaged son. Congrats on that. Nira, I appreciate you. Let's do this. I don't you're very popular, very smart, very engaged son. Congrats on that, Nira. I appreciate you. Let's do this. I don't know, you know, every six weeks or so.

Let's do it. Yeah, it's fun. All right. Great to see you. I appreciate it very much. Up next, Jon Fetterman. All right. We are back with the senior Democratic Senator from Pennsylvania. It's John Federman.

I've done a wardrobe change, you know, in your spirit. I am like your number one apologist about wearing the hoodie on the floor. There's no need to wear a suit for these people. All right, so you just keep doing you. The truth story behind the hoodie thing, it's like I never went to anybody or Schumer anyone to ask for that. You know, I read about that.

I'm like, I never asked for those kinds of things. I was never gonna like just give speeches, you know, hoodie there. So, but for me, I'm a comfort guy and I'm also a lazy man and I don't have to iron it. It's just easy to wash it and I'm ready to go. And plus it's hard to find suits too. Well, I appreciate it. I wanted to have you on you.

You really spoke out to this week on defense of trans athletes. And I wanted to start there and then we'll get into some Trump stuff. But you wrote that the small handful of trans athletes in Pennsylvania are in a political maelstrom that they're in. defense of trans athletes. I wanted to start there and then we'll get into some Trump stuff. You wrote this, the small handful of trans athletes in Pennsylvania are in a political maelstrom. They deserve an ally and I am one. Empty show votes or cruelty on social media aren't part of a thoughtful, dignified solution.

What made you jump out so aggressively on that and what do you think a more thoughtful solution would be? Well, because for me, it's been born from my commitment to never to pick on anybody. I mean, when I was very young, I got bullied and picked on. And that really kind of shaped a lot of my experience. And I'm not part of those communities, LGBTQ kinds of things. But now, that really started when I was a small town mayor, when gay marriage was illegal, literally it was illegal. And then there was an opportunity,

there was someone starting to sign those things. And I said, 100%, I got on TV, I'm like, I'll sign them, come with me. And that was illegal. And then the governor at the time threatened to have me arrested. And then I said, well, hey, you know where you know where I live, bring it, bring it. And I signed for those things.

And that was the first I was at the time, the only official in Pennsylvania willing to sign those. And they all became legal. And that was back in 2013. And so it's the same kind of thing. It's like marriage equality. I really support that. And if I was convicted of that crime, because technically it was a crime, I'm like, well,

hey, then that might be the end of my political career. But you know, I will never, you know, degrade somebody based on who they love. And now for this, and I'm not dumb either, I know the polling and now a lot of people are saying it's absurd, it's absurd kinds of thing. And now, so for me, that's when I felt like it's a time to really say look, now for me, it's about I'm not going to bully or I'm not going to degrade those. And now, you know, we're a 13 million people in our state and it's a small, small number of people that are involved on that. And I have a 13 year old daughter and she plays basketball and I'm not array that she's

going to get mowed down. But for me, but it turns into an issue that is more appropriate to be handled on a very hyper local level and not dropping them into a meat grinder and a national times and weaponizing that and I know I'm not dumb. I know the there'll be commercial saying you know, Fetterman's for they them and blah blah blah and I'm like, hey, you know, like bring it in. I'm not I'm not afraid to stand from my side on that because for these kids for for me how difficult that it is and now in this kinds of a world nuance goes to die and having a more meaningful conversation on that it's difficult right now so for me you know that I made I made that choice and I could have tried to keep my head down like

a lot of my other colleagues decided to do that but but for me even though I know it's politically unpopular I think that's the kind of time to do that and I for me, even though I know it's politically unpopular, I think that's the kind of time to do that. And I do believe that a person's character is defined by the things that they're willing to do, even if that moves against their political interests. Well, I appreciate that. Maybe I should have got married in Braddock, because it was like not till five years later that I got my gay marriage. It is just one more thing on the nuance of this. It's just worth saying. Martina Navratilova, not a liberal. I saw her tweeting at you on, you know,

saying that, I don't know, it's different for teen girls. Like, and Gavin Newsome, big progressive, said that he is breaking with Democrats on youth sports. So I don't know. You know, he's, in my opinion, he's gonna get the worst of both worlds of that. I mean, he's gonna be seen as just flip-flopping and he's going to, he's going to anger like his progressive base and then, and we all know why he's

doing those kinds of things. So, and then, and then on the other side are going to know why he's making those kinds of changes. So for, for me, like, it's like, he's going to own the worst of both of those worlds for that. To me, the clear one is the trans-military thing. That's the one that, like you, I see the nuance of the youth sports issue. I did a video. I'm like, look, I mean, there was a time when it wasn't controversial. Desegregating the military was incredibly controversial at the time. I'm not going to

serve. I'm not going to fight. I'm not going to bunk with black soldiers. Now, of course, that needed to change. And then there was, I'm old enough to remember when, don't tell, don't ask thing. And now it's like, regardless of who you love, I mean, that doesn't make you more lethal or more suitable to be a soldier based on who you love. That was really front and center with the Hegseth nomination. Well, what about women in combat and based on their gender? And when you have gender neutral kinds of things that, and then it's, it shouldn't matter based on your gender.

And now, so regardless on how you identify, you know, that doesn't make you any more or less lethal. And as long as you're able to meet those kinds of a standard, for me, it's about it's about the dignity, the dignity of the soldier. And I'm not going to degrade that based on their race, obviously, on their gender, on who they love and not how they identify. And that's why I did that video knowing that it's not politically popular. So that's why I decided to lean on that because I think it's part of that narrative, that arc of whether what was really controversial and unthinkable

based on race and now, and now we're all we're along that arc. I think the military one might become popular framed the right way. The idea that like a, a draft dodging guy wearing makeup is going to ban people who volunteered to serve based on their gender identity, it's fucking, it's sick. It's gross to me. It was considered controversial. It's like based on who you love. I don't understand that. And I'm like, for me, like for I say to my conservative friends, it's like, it's about freedom, freedom.

It's one of those are the kinds of fundamental kinds of things. You know, I love the freedom to love who you love. And now if you have that kinds of internal conflict about your gender, you know, I didn't experience those kinds of things. But I know people that have, and they are coming from a very sincere place, and they are trying to live their truths. I don't think that they don't deserve to be ridiculed or turned into pariahs. Definitely teenagers especially, I'm not going to be part of dropping them into that meat

grinder. What did you make of the Zelensky meeting on Friday and the way that the president's been treating our ally Ukraine, cutting off intelligence and now I guess report this morning potentially getting rid of legal status for Ukrainian, feel it's like asylum. I've been unapologetic pro Ukraine. You know, I'm like one of the best things I've ever done as a senator. I voted for the aid for Israel, for Ukraine and Taiwan. I mean, like for me, that's a global struggle against democracy.

And obviously Russia was the aggressor. Well, I'm old enough. I've, I've said this before. I'm like, when I grew up, I'm like red dawn. I'm like, you're cheering for the Wolverines, the Wolverines. And Russia was the evil empire. And it is, it is. If you disagree with Putin, two days later, they find you because you fell out of a window.

So I absolutely didn't agree with what happened in the White House, but I didn't jump on and started yelling, but two things can be true at the same time. I certainly didn't appreciate what happened in the White House, but it's also undeniable that Ukraine doesn't have, you know, he doesn't have all the cards. I mean, what's true now too, the president is the commander of JIF, and he has the ability to shape and really alter the contour of that. And if we're moving towards peace, you know, I don't want to inflame that situation. I mean, we're not, come on, we're not moving towards peace. What evidence is there that Putin wants peace? And Trump has not asked Putin for anything.

What has Trump asked Putin for as part of peace? Again, Putin is a killer. And of course Russia is our enemy always. And that hasn't gone to change. My hope is, is that it is moving towards because I do not believe that the war in Ukraine is sustainable and I have met amputees. I have met them. I have met them and they're getting all back to the front line.

And now if you're sending those wounded men there, it's a terrible situation. And if there's a path for peace peace I don't agree those kinds of terms necessarily and I fully support seizing there's about 218 billion of seized Russian assets and I'm absolutely like what they need to seize that and those are the kind of assets that should rebuild it we should rebuild that and I don't think we should extract those kinds of funds, you know, and repaid, repaid, our nation, our nation. I thought it was always a bargain to break and humiliate the Russia military and demonstrated

their lack of capabilities. Talking about not jumping online and being alarmed, you wrote after Trump's, whatever that was, not State of the union speech, the address to Congress, that your colleagues participated in a sad cavalcade of self-owns and unhinged petulance. You said we are becoming the metaphorical car alarms that nobody pays attention to. I don't know though. Aren't we in car alarm territory? Isn't a time for alarm? What I'm saying though, it's like, of course, we're, you know, there are, there are things that are concerned, but without realizing the circumstances and part of

the reasons why we ended up in this place. I mean, I'm a big believer in American democracy. And right now when we're 53 and 47 in my, in the Senate here and, and they, they own the government right now. And of course they're going to lose the house. I hope they're going to lose the house. So they're going to do a lot of I hope they're going to lose the house. So they're going to do a lot of these things.

I don't agree with a lot of those things. You know, do you think what they did during the so to, if you thought that was smart messaging, if you landed, I mean, I don't agree with that. No, I didn't think it was smart. I agreed with you on that. But I guess I'd just say this. Trump, if I look at your phrase, unhinged petulance, I can't think of a phrase that better describes Donald Trump than unhinged petulance. All he did was call Joe Biden dementia Joe. He

yelled and he screamed and he posted and he bleed it. He did embarrassing things. And in the end, he convinced a lot of people. I don't know, like isn't politics part of politics telling people about all the terrible things that the opposing party is doing? I didn't really think that what happened at the State of the Union was particularly good, but I think that Democrats should be louder, not quieter. What do you think about that? What I'm saying though is what I witnessed wasn't helpful and that wasn't moving the

ball for Democrats. I don't believe that. And if you can't just all stand and cheer for a 13 year old boy that got, I mean, I have a 13 year old myself, you know, got over cancer. I mean, that's wrong message. I agree. Can't you do both? I remember, I remember, I remember when Joe Wilson, Joe Wilson,

that jerk off yelled, you lie, you lie, you know, and, and everyone recoiled and then like that was appalled by that. And it's like, yeah. So, so now we became the Joe Wilson of 2025 and that was a loser in 2009. And, and I don't think that's a winner or it's appropriate anymore now in 2025. Yeah. I agree when it comes to the behavior in the room. I'm talking a little broader than that. I guess my point is, can't you stand and cheer for the 13-year-old with the brain cancer?

And then also the next day, go out and say, Donald Trump and Elon Musk are acting illegally. They're firing vets at the VA. Donald Trump is abandoning them. I don't agree with all those things. I don't understand what their upside is. I don't know what they get out of a lot of that chaos, but now they seem to be wanting to triple down on some of that kinds of thing. But, but I do believe, you know, of course is that, you know, if you become the

party of chaos, you lose and the second Americans decide it's like, you know, you know, people aren't going to vote for chaos. And if you can, can you create more and more and more kinds of chaos again? Of course there is going to be a backlash. So that's where we're at. I defined your strategy the other day to somebody and you can tell me if this is wrong and maybe this isn't a strategy. Maybe you're just being you as you're basically voting with the Democrats on.

Most everything, a couple of things now, but like most everything you're voting with the Democrats, but you're spending a lot of time talking about how they're annoying. No, most of them, the border, the border, but you're spending a lot of time talking about how they're annoying. Not most of them. The border, the border. You know, like I really pushed and got Lakin, you know, I was like the co-sponsor for Lakin. And then Israel, Israel, absolutely. You know, like, you know, so not most of them.

People were saying that you were going to vote for the cabinet appointees and like, you know, again, uncertain issues on immigration, on Israel, there have been policy differences from some in your party. But a lot of the times you've been, you're still, I mean, you endorse Bernie, like, you're still a pretty liberal person on most issues, right? And you're just, it's just your rhetoric. It was like eight or nine years ago. I mean, and that was about very basic kinds of things. And like I've described, it's like, you know, the label left me, you know, like it wasn't that so eight years ago, the world, you know, the world was much different. People thought that it was unthinkable that Donald Trump could win. And he did. Now I would like to remind everybody Trump, you know, won two out of

the three last cycles and he nearly could have won the 2020. So why, and I'm trying to figure out a way forward. You know, hey, I wish I had a deep blue state or a district and I can yell and get on and be like, ah, you know, but that's easy, you know? And then they can monetize that and they can jump on an email and raise money for their campaign for that thing.

But for me, I'm trying to find a way forward for our party. And I'm not going to be a mansion. I'm not going to be, you know, I'm not going to go independent or doing all those kinds of things. So but you know, when when you represent one of the most purple land in the country, and I don't believe I stopped believing in on like cheap heat online and just yelling just because I don't agree with it on the time. If you yell at everything, then everything just becomes absurd.

That's why, you know, does anybody call the police when they see or hear a car alarm going off? No. You know, no, people ignore that. So if everything, you know, and the world is on fire and that actually doesn't happen. People stop listening or just assume that that's really what you do. So I want to be very selective. And now like a constitutional crisis, the second the president defies the Supreme court or any of that, that defines, that's literally the definition of a constitutional crisis.

And I'd be the first person to just be like, no, we have, you know, so I think if you pick your own fights, so I like to believe that your words will matter more if it's not always spending time yelling and saying that the world's going to end. Pete You said you think the left or the progressives or whatever left you. Like, what do you think changed? Because look, it's funny, in 2015, you were endorsing Bernie in 2016, I was for Jeb. You know, so like, here we are. So something's changed and people kind of wonder whether you've changed, but I guess

you're saying that you don't think you've changed. You think that the progressives has changed or have you changed? Well, I think it's both. I mean, for me, if anything, what happened about Israel? What happened on 10-7? A lot certainly changed. I was shocked at the way that members of my party, the way they behaved for that.

And also the border. I mean, if you've been on my social media, I dropped a chart and it's like, what's real chaos? What's real chaos? 250, 300,000 people showing up at our border every month. That's the size of Pittsburgh. And now like that's real chaos. That's chaos.

And the Democrats have no, had no answer to say, well, oh, it's all going to work out. It's all just fine. You know, like everything's fine. There's nothing wrong there. So that really is, that's, that's true chaos. And I, as my party tried to, I tried to warn that we're gonna be punished by this and trying to pretend that we're wrong. And I always knew we were going to get rolled on that bipartisan deal thing. Do you think Trump's going to give and walk that and give that away?

I always say like, I'm never going to pick a fine on fried chicken with Colonel Sanders. He owns the border and does, and that's definitely too valuable for him to hand that away. So, it's obvious we were going to get rolled. So going forward, one thing I wanted to ask you is, I was listening to some focus groups yesterday and there were some guys that, I don't know, kind of sounded like you. They're these kind of voters that they really don't like Big Pharma. They like Bernie, but they also really appeal to RFK. RFK appeals to them because they think that Big Pharma, these big corporations are out

to get them. These used to be Democratic voters. They're examples of these young men that now have kind of lost trust in institutions that are now becoming mega voters. And I'm wondering how you think Democrats could get them back. I'm not sure. I've witnessed that starting back in 2015-16. So what would be your strategy to vote for them, to vote for you?

Forget the Democratic Party. Like what kind of messages do you think you're going to focus on, you know, that you think might resonate with them? I'm not like a you should, you should, you should guy. It's my own examples and the kinds of things that I happen to believe. That's why I'm willing to talk to everybody. That's not why I think that everything that comes from Republican is bad or evil or it's terrible.

I try to find things that we can agree and there's some things that we're not going to agree on, on all of those things. But I promise you, a lot of the messaging that's being emerging in every sense after the inauguration, I don't think that's going to be the kinds of messaging that's going to change our party in the ways that can avoid that we end up in a way not different than we were back in 2024. What about the Bernie messaging since the election? Really just focusing on billionaires, focusing on these big corporations, focusing on big

pharma and how Democrats need to be the party of reform and going after the wealth gap. What do you think about that? Does that appeal to you at all? I think they've been there. They're very, very bizarre. We were forced to spend until five in the morning to keep having all these empty show votes trying to tie the Republicans to billionaires. I'm like, hey, they campaigned with a billionaire. I'm like, we love them.

They announce it. They get in front of now and now they just went at the State of state of the union speech, you know, like, hey, I love that billionaire. That's my partner. Having all of these silly votes till five in the morning, you know, that never went anywhere. It all just vanishes and never goes anywhere. I don't agree with a lot of this messaging. It's not helpful.

I'm just going to continue to try and find a way forward, but I'm not going to spend time yelling online and dropping silly videos or just... You had lunch with Trump and I don't know, he's easy to flatter, right? And afterwards he's like, that guy is better than I thought or whatever. So I don't know, he's probably more likely to answer your call than mine, saying that he doesn't like traitors. But I'm wondering if you were to call him back up, is there a specific thing they've been doing these first two months that you are most upset about that you would like them

to change course on? Not politically, but like an actual substantive policy that you could try to persuade them on. What would it be? I mean, there'd be a lot of things, but I don't flatter myself to think that as a Democrat, a senator is going to carry how much weight on that, but I don't understand what they're getting out of the chaos. I'd like to say, if the Republicans stop being dicks, they're never going to lose an election. And if Democrats don't stop getting kind

of crazy or goofy or fringy, then they're never going to lose another election. And if Democrats don't stop getting kind of crazy or goofy or fringy, then they're never going to lose another election. It's like there's a lot of overreaction. So I really don't understand a lot of the chaos. And then when they say things that are absolutely not true, you just diminish your own credibility. So I think if they make some of the small changes, but I don't agree with many of the things that happen. But when I do happen to agree that we do need to those small changes, but I don't agree with many of the things that happen. But when I do happen to agree that we do need to secure our border, and I do think we need

to really stand firmly behind Israel, I do. I agree with a lot of those things, well too. So, when you did talk to them, what did you talk to them about when you guys had lunch? What did you guys talk about? Well, we talked to a lot of different things. Like his playlist? I talked to everybody as long as people are playing it straight. And that's what it was.

It was a conversation. I mean, like the border, like his hair, money, crypto. I mean, who knows? No, no, no. And again, you know, it's like, that's one of the, you know, I never divulge what happens in private conversations. I mean, they're always, we always have to have honor amongst thieves, otherwise things would completely break down.

I met with all of the secretary nominees and we all had conversations and I never just ran to the press or said things or did that kinds of things. It's like I play things straight. I will want people to play me straight and as long as people do the same thing, I'm going to have a dialogue with virtually anyone. Well, I appreciate you coming on the podcast. And obviously, I don't think that your wish that the chaos will tamp down is going to happen. So as more stuff happens, we'll hope to be talking to you again soon. Very good. Okay. Thank you. All right. Well, that was John Fetterman.

We'll see what you guys think about that one in the comments. Much appreciated to him for coming on and for speaking his mind, particularly on trans issues. And thanks to my friend, Nira Tanden. Hopefully we'll be having her back again soon. And rest easy to one of the greats, Roy Ayres. He wrote maybe the vibiest song of all time. Everybody loves the sunshine. We're not in a sunshine place right now. So I'm going to take you out today with something else. You all can go check out the Roy Ayres discography and come back here tomorrow. We're going to have one of your favorites on a weekend edition of the Bulldog podcast. We'll see you all then. Peace. I just know I can't conceive of searching When love is gone and one believes that love will come My brand new leaves come searching And in the day when I will say that my soul lives

The truthful way of searching Say butterfly up in the sky, I got stories to say, I take a while researching You see my foot, I need someone who feels the same as I do Searching Searching Searching Searching Searching

Searching Searching Searching, searching, searching, searching, searching, searching, searching, searching, searching, searching, searching, searching, searching, searching, searching, searching, The Bulldog Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brow.