The Bulwark Podcast - Nicolle Wallace: The Silence of Republicans Is the Bigger Threat

Episode Date: June 24, 2025

While Trump and his administration are the ones politicizing the rule of the law, ignoring due process, and annihilating democratic norms, it's Republicans leaders saying and doing nothing in response that poses a bigger threat to our country and democracy. Meanwhile, when it comes to the Middle East, we don't know who Trump is talking to—or listening to. Plus, when Bush 43, McCain, and Jeb pushed for immigration reform, the romantic idealism of Aaron Sorkin, and the sounds of kids and dogs.  (An unfiltered) Nicolle Wallace joins Tim Miller. show notes Nicolle's new pod, 'The Best People' Matt Gaetz arguing with his mom via text *Get $35 off your first box of wild-caught, sustainable seafood—delivered right to your door. Go to: https://www.wildalaskan.com/BULWARK

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Ready to take back your phone? Visit line2.com slash audio or download Line 2 in the App Store today. Hello and welcome to the Bullhorn Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Hello and welcome to the Bollard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Could not be more delighted to be here today with the host of Deadline White House on MSNBC. She's got a new podcast as well, The Best People with Nicole Wallace. It's Nicole Wallace.

I finally get to turn the mic on you. It's terrifying. I'm thrilled. Though I felt horrible because I was like, when do I get to turn the mic on you? And you're like, you've never formally asked me. You've never asked me. This is my first invitation. I think I did. I don't know. I got to be a tougher booker. No, I think there was a cool factor that I don't... I mean, I've not been on a lot of

podcasts. John Heilman is the only one that invites me on his podcast. I don't think it's the cool factor. I think people are scared because you're doing two hours a day. You've got a newborn. I'm like, do I want to bug Nicole? You know what? I mean, I've anchored the last two Saturdays and I'm entering this mode of like always on. Like your endurance picks up when you do more.

Yeah. All right. I want to talk to you about your news life. We got to do a little actual news first. Okay. That's okay. Sure. Since yesterday's podcast, we've had a ceasefire announcement, more bombings, another temporary

ceasefire, more bombings. So it's a little tenuous right now. I did a TikTok with Sam Stein on YouTube if people want to watch that. But the latest we have the president, I don't usually place Trump's voice on the podcast, but we're going to make an exception for this one because he uses one of the podcast's favorite words. He's talking about his frustration with the fact that israel and iran did not follow The greatest ceasefire ever that he had announced on on his social media feed. Let's listen to him real quick

So i'm not happy with them I'm not happy with iran either but i'm really unhappy if israel's going out this morning because of one rocket That didn't land that was shot perhaps by mistake that didn't land that was shot, perhaps by mistake that didn't land. I'm not happy about that. We basically have two countries that have been fighting so long and so hard that they don't know what the fuck they're doing. Do you understand that? Maybe true of everybody involved kind of. I don't know, does the I totally know what he's doing?

Does Trump, does Hexa? I mean, there's always a projection, right? What have you made about this whole 12 day saga? Well, I feel like Bill Barr gave us bullshit because it was a direct quote and now Trump has given us, they don't know what the fuck they're doing and now we can just quote him. So for that, I'm grateful.

I think that we have to be careful not to become amnesic, right? Like this is a guy who couldn't pull off the egg roll without annihilating norms and ethics laws and so we have to be really, really careful about what he says about the Middle East. Like I get that he's the president, he's the commander in chief, he's the only one we have, but I'm uneasy broadcasting his tweets and his comments on a newscast because I don't know if he knows what he's talking about.

Yeah. And we saw that last night, I was up laying in bed doing the unhealthy thing where I'm scrolling social media while also being in bed. So you're doing that. And we're like coming up on that where the ceasefires was supposed to be. And he is sending out a bleat about how great and brilliant everything was and how it's the best ceasefire ever, you know, in one post.

And then the next post I see is like four dead in Israel because an Iran missile broke through the Iron Dome, right? So it's like in real time he's giving fake information. Yeah and I think it's for another draft to figure out if he knows it's false at the time. You know, I don't know. He would have the ability to know if I knew. Correct, correct. But he, I remember living dog years, but I think it was four days ago that he broke with his hand picked Intel chief. So it's unclear where he's getting his information.

It's unclear if it's coming from US national security agencies or elsewhere or the media. It's completely unclear who he's talking to and who he's listening to. I'd Bill Kristol, me and Bill Kristol were going back and forth yesterday and he's a little bit, I don't know, his old neocon muscles are flexing a little bit right now and he's like, you know, I don't like Trump,

but the mullahs are so bad and the Iranian people deserve freedom and we don't want them to have nukes and if it's a tailored strike, maybe that's a good thing. Maybe it weakens Iran more. Is there any of your old muscles flaring in that direction? I mean, I put all those muscles out to pasture, but I think a clear-headed analysis, I mean,

Senator Slotkin had this analysis that she'd been in Iraq and the Iranians have the blood of US soldiers on their hands. I mean, they've been a threat and a danger and they're an adversary and that's clear. But I think we're in a tricky zone where we're trying to sort of sift through the chaos and the mayhem and find little flecks of gold. I mean, sure, there will always be them. And the other one is, thank God, all the men and women of the military that carried out this operation came home safe. I mean, that is truly a wonderful aspect of all this. But I'll leave that to others. I mean, I think my focus is on what happens next, you know, what happens today,

what happens tomorrow. And again, I think it's stupid to compare Trump to other presidents. It's fair to compare Trump to the last time he was president. And there is no one like Mark Milley around him. I mean, he seems to be listening to General Cain, his Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, but he doesn't say the same thing that he says. Trump's analysis the night of the strikes was that we had, quote, obliterated their program. Cain went out the next morning and didn't say anything close to that. An assessment hadn't even taken place when Trump addressed the nation.

So there will always be flecks of gold in that little thing of sound we sift through, and that's a good thing. But I think that the bigger picture is what keeps me up at night. Yeah. I'm going to make you list all the things that keep you up at night at the very end. A couple of other news things I want to do. Lisa Murkowski was on Galen Drewk's podcast and credit to Galen because he was really kind of relentless in questioning her about a topic that has been something that I've been wondering for a while, which is why she isn't considering, if

not becoming a Democrat, you know, teaming up with Angus King and creating some independent caucus within the Senate. He asked her about it. I want to play you just a, it went on for like six minutes. So I just want to play a couple of little bites from it and get your reaction. Say Democrats win three seats in the next midterm election in the Senate. And they say, we're going to let you pass bills that benefit Alaskans. If you caucus with us, you don't have to become a Democrat.

You can be an independent, but if you caucus with us and provide the sort of fourth vote that we need to get from where we are now, and you can pass legislation that helps Alaskans. Would you do it? That's my primary goal. I have to figure out how I can be most effective for the people that I serve. That's why I'm going to continue to do a really hard job because I want to try to help people. My problem with your hypothetical is that as challenged as I think we may be on the Republican side, I don't see the Democrats being much better. And they've got not only their share of problems, but quite honestly, they've got some policies that I just inherently disagree with.

Pete She goes on to kind of, after he asks again and again, to kind of say, well, I'm open to it. It's kind of a Jim Carrey, so you're saying there's a chance answer there a little bit. But I don't know. That just kind of lets me feeling cold. I'm like, I don't even really know what she's talking about. Like, what is it? Yeah. Look, I mean, 2015 is calling and they want their BS, why can't you be a Democrat response back? He's now orchestrated an insurrection against the US Capitol. You ran for your life. I think there's footage of it because of Trump.

The Republicans did nothing when he pardoned all the insurrectionists that made you run for your life. He's put people atop the FBI and the Pentagon who generously speaking are inexperienced, accurately speaking are completely unqualified. They were opposed. I mean, I think she opposed one or both of them. So the idea that their policy, she's not totally psyched about on the Democratic side is ludicrous. I think Trump is what he is.

I think the Republicans are the bigger threat to the country at this point. It's kind of crazy. And how do you process all of it? I just look at it and I'm like, we're now in year nine or 10 of Trump and one Republican, Jeff Van Drew of New Jersey, has switched parties from Democrat to Republican. None have gone the other way. And now we've had Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger, who like, we've had people who showed courage and then retired Jeff Flake. But I just, I don't, I can't process like why, like what, what do you think is really holding her up? I guess is my question. Could it possibly be energy policy?

Like, what could it be? No, I think the policy thing is ludicrous. I think there's a nostalgia for the old days and a delusion of the snapback theory, which you heard a lot during Trump 1.0 Well, Trump believe and will snap back to normal Republican stuff normal Republican stuff has an appeal to normal Republican voters for almost two decades now I mean, it's it's why you know, it's why Trump won the primary in 16 And so the idea is that they're waiting to get to doing, I don't even know what they think

the normal stuff would look like. I mean, Portman was normal and he's gone and he went along with all of Trump's stuff and Corker was pretty normal and he's gone. And I think it's this belonging, this affinity to stay in the club you've always been in, but I think it's delusional to think that it's ever going to be what it was when you joined it. And I don't know about you, this whole thing has been pretty easy to me. Like I get thanked sometimes by liberals, like on the street, they're like, you're so courageous.

So I'm like, not really actually. Like he was a total clown. It wasn't even a close call. It was ridiculous. Had it been a closer call, maybe I would have been a coward, too. Maybe I would have gone along with somebody that was unqualified, too, but in a more close-run

hypothetical, right? So it's hard for me, as far as the book, it's hard for me to kind of process, like, why is it so hard for all these people? Why is it so hard for Bob Corker and Lisa Murkowski? What do you think the reason is? I used to really anguish about it. Think about this.

There has never been a book reported out by a reporter from Capitol Hill or a political reporter that shows anyone from JD Vance to Mitch McConnell to Boehner saying anything privately that's different from what you and I say. Mitch McConnell, quote, Trump is a despicable human being the most despicable human being Kevin McCarthy in that book by By the yeah, you know Impeachment was too slow. He wanted them to look at the 25th Amendment JD Vance America's Hitler

Cultural heroine so where I used to anguish, you know, how do they not see what I see? The people who loathe him the most are the people who have completely sacrificed their integrity, their honesty, and their faith to what was real conservatism. And so that gives me some relief that at least I'm telling the truth about it. You never listen to Lisa Murkowski and think, you know, she's making a point. Maybe I should be hedging a little more. No, no. And I also think it's so lame. It's so lame.

If you're a partisan, you are on a side because you believe in things. For me, what I believed in, I, and people will sneer at this, but I believed in the democracy stuff. I think Liz Cheney did too. And the idea that if that was your sort of path into being a Republican, that you don't see Trump as a threat to democracy as your off ramp from it is ridiculous.

I want to do the way you believe it, because I get this question a lot too. I didn't know you until after all this, like we both worked for Jeb in different eras, right? Because I'm old. Yeah, you're older than me. You are older. You look great though. We both worked for McCain, but in different eras of McCain.

Like we never overlapped. And so I didn't kind of know you until all that Trump stuff happening. So like thinking back to baby Nicole, college Nicole, like why were you a college Republican? What drew you to it initially? So I wasn't, so I wasn't. I was a college journalism nerd. I squatted in all of the journalism classes

at UC Berkeley and I wasn't politicized by Berkeley. A lot of people either really embrace Berkeley's liberal history or don't see themselves in it and I think there was a college Republican party there. I wasn't part of any of that. Oh yeah, my friend was a Berkeley College Republican. It takes a special type of contrarian to want to be a Berkeley College Republican. But it happens, but I spent my college years interning at local television stations.

I worked this overnight shift, like 2 a.m. to through the morning shows until they took the national morning shows. I covered the OJ Simpson trial. I covered the earthquakes and the fires in the Bay Area. I used to hop in the van and run around with local, the great amazing- You are old. You covered the OJ Simpson trial? I was a child. I cut sound when I was in college from the night before's

college from the night before's testimony, I think I was 18 or 19, and it would make up these like six-minute saw chunks on the local news before the national news. So I was like a TV news nerd, and when I graduated from Berkeley, I went to Medill. So I went to Northwestern and I was a local reporter. And then after sort of shooting, actually there were a couple stories that I just, I couldn't handle being the first person on accidents. I just, I couldn't take it. And so sometimes I would, I had the scanner and sometimes I would get there before the ambulance and I couldn't, I couldn't take that.

And so I thought local news isn't for me. And so I moved to Sacramento and interviewed with a Republican and a Democrat the same week. And the Republican hired me. And that was how I became a Republican president. This is such a 90s story. This is like people, young people really do not get this. But like that was so, Michael Lewis wrote, when I was writing the book, I didn't read political books because like, I don't know about you, because I was writing the book, I didn't read political books because I don't know about you, but because I like, live it. And so I hate reading them. And so I never did. And so, you know, my editor was like, you've got to read a bunch of political

books and tell me which ones you like so we can create a model. And I read this old Michael Lewis book from the 1996 campaign. It's like Lost to History. It's called Losers. And it was about all the losing candidates. And it was so good. And he was so contemptuous of the fact that the strategists on both sides of both parties could have been totally indistinguishable. Totally. And they could have switched sides very easily. Totally. And they got into politics because they liked politics as a game. And I was like, the number

of people I know who worked for, I mean, you you I think, worked for Republicans and then voted against McCain and then voted for Obama in 08. There are still prominent Republicans around who privately told me they voted for Obama. Yeah, because I think to do it, you are idealistic. You're more Aaron Sorkin than the Federalist Society, right? And so I watched the West Wing and I had this romanticized view of people doing the right thing. And I have an email relationship with Aaron Sorkin saying that he ruined all this for me. I keep waiting for someone to put the crime bill in the drawer because it doesn't do anything to fight crime. He totally romanticized with the West Wing and the American president what it would be.

Yeah, so I started working for Republicans in California. I never worked for Pete Wilson, but it was sort of at the end of his time. And so George W. Bush was thrust onto the scene as the opposite in terms of immigration instincts to Pete Wilson. And so it's pretty funny that the party has circled back around to Pete Wilson, who couldn't make his way out of New Hampshire after elevating, you know, George W. Bush and John McCain, who essentially believed in something much closer to amnesty. Pete Yeah. The immigration thing is, to me, I don't know, sometimes left people like you were

hoodwinked or whatever, and I was asking McKinnon about this on the show last week, and I was like, I don't think so. Like, there was a fight was within the party, right? But like there was a genuine kind of patriotic strain. Like it was almost jingoistic kind of like pro immigrant because we're so great, like less like kind of humanitarian, but also because the US is so great. We want people who are fleeing communism, fleeing other countries to come here. And that to me was like kind of my origin story. I like really bought all that and was moved by it. And that's part of the reason why this switch has been so like easy for me. But like, what do you think going back to all that?

And you were there with Bush and both Bushes, I guess, like how earnest was that like the more compassionate pro-immigrant pitch in those days. So it played out within the second Bush administration. So Bush goes to address the nation on comprehensive immigration reform in 05. And that speech had more drafts than that year's State of the Union address, which was the first year after his re-election. And I think that's a reflection of the tug of war even within the administration. I spent enough time with Bush at that point. I was his communications director in the second term. I think he saw it the way you just articulated. Reagan is the last president

to really do sweeping amnesty. I think Bush saw immigrants as vitally important, totally persuadable if he made, I think he believed he could make a case about conservatism to any immigrant family and try to win their hearts and minds. As a Texas governor, they weren't otherized to him. I mean, he saw them as part of the community, part of the faith community, part of the economy. Bush was never a fan of people having to return and then get in line because he knew that nobody would do that. Bush also had an extraordinary amount of comprehension and compassion for anyone who put their children on a bus or on a train or sent them to America for a better life.

I mean, he thought that was, in some ways, just this incredible statement about what America was to a mom or dad who wanted to send their kids to America for the American dream. So Bush saw immigration the way Reagan did, the way I think you and I see it, and was defeated and undermined by his own party in trying to do comprehensive immigration reform.

There was a way to do it with Democrats, but Cheney having served in the ranks of the House Republicans was not a fan of that. But Tony Snow was the White House press secretary, so I had the job of booking Bush, Cheney, and Tony Snow on conservative talk radio, which was the driver before the podcast era. And I remember booking Tony, who I adored, and Bush and Cheney on with Rush, on with Hannity, on with I think Mark Levin was one of the people. The great one. And really trying to make the case.

And I don't think they support, I don't think any of them really supported it, but they let us make the argument. And I think it was Bush's first window into how nativist and isolationist the party was becoming even during his second term. So what about you? Do you look back on that and feel like I should have seen it a little earlier? Oh, I mean, I did see it.

I did see it. And I think, you know, the only Republican I worked for after that was McCain who saw it. It was the issue, I think, on which Bush and McCain agreed the most vociferously and agreed from this really deep, how they saw America place.

So I've never worked for anyone who was conflicted about this. I think McCain and Kennedy saw comprehensive immigration reform the way Bush did. I mean, oddly Rubio did for a minute also, but then became- Do you look back at it or you conflict about anything else? I'm conflicted about all of it. I'm conflicted about being part of Pail Land. I'm conflicted about-

Quantanum. And I was watching The Mauritanian this weekend and I was like, Oh God. I mean, I don't know. That was some movie about one of the guys that was in Guantanamo that may be wrong. I don't know. You'll never know. But yeah, look, and I, I think that, I think just keeping your mouth shut and letting people who paid the ultimate price for the country because of the foreign policy decisions that

Bush made is the path I've chosen. I've been on the air, obviously, the last week, and every bad comparison is a comparison back to the decisions made by my old boss in that region. So, yeah, I'm conflicted about all of it. If you don't get older and wiser and platform your own sort of internal regrets and things you do differently with twice as many years under your belt, there's something wrong with you. I'm into that.

I always think the stupidest criticism people have of me is like, you've broken your principle, you've changed. I'm like, you haven't changed? We elected the stupidest person in the country president twice. It hasn't changed your view on anything. It doesn't seem like you're a very deep thinker in that case. The idea that it is true that neither party is perfect. It is also true that only one party

is trying to erode our democratic principles and norms. So anyone that makes an argument to me about principles, like what are you talking about? I mean, I never agreed with everything the Republican party stood for either. Y'all buying seafood can sometimes be a challenge. You want to make sure you got something fresh, you're going to the store,

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to Wild Alaskan Company for sponsoring this episode. Do you have any old Jeb stories for me from the early days? So I was his first press secretary when he wins governor the first time. And I went and interviewed for the job. I worked in California politics and I knew a bunch of folks who'd worked for his dad. So that was my connection to his world after he wins. And I went out there and interviewed and it was right after Lawton Childs died. And you know Jeb, he's just always kind of walking around unstaffed and like taller than everybody.

And so I went in and interviewed with him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I interviewed with his chief of staff, Sally Bradshaw and his communications director, Corey Tilley and they were amazing. And I have no idea to this day what they saw in me,

but then Jeb, I guess, heard that I spoke Spanish and so came in and started talking to me in Spanish. And he felt like he really owed to the Cuban community in South Florida his victory. And so like that I spoke Spanish. And I got that job. I arrived in Tallahassee with a comforter in my suitcase and had to find a place to live.

It was very intrepid when I looked back. But because of the sunshine laws, the press secretary always has to travel with Jeb. So I went everywhere with him and he played a lot of golf, and he played one day with Tiger Woods. So I went with Jeb and Tiger Woods had gone to Stanford, and I'd gone to Berkeley, and so we like six degrees. The Nike commercial, he wasn't flirting

Tiger was never flirting with me But on his backswing that Nike app is out that said I am Tiger Woods So he was you know, it's not the backswing and I said I am Tiger Woods and Jeb looked to me like he wanted to fucking Kill me and Tiger would start laughing and I was like see that was funny. You're old So that was my golfing with Jeff story. You can see was easy to get along with on the road though, right? Oh, he was easy. He's like zero maintenance. The plane was so scary and old. I was always afraid I was going to plunge to my death. And he just sort of did his emails. And he called his laptop his woobie and was always emailing back a constituent about something. And he was

really easy, really low maintenance. I love Jeb. He was so easy to hang out, so funny and private. I never really couldn't translate it on the debate stage and private like that is just some people. I hear Hillary's like that. I've never gone to hang out with Hillary. There are others. The thing with Jeb that's funny that I think about in your context is he really, I think, was kind of surprised by the direction of where everything was going. And so I got to kind of live it with him firsthand, like first running and then seeing how crazy the Maggots had gotten. And like he's getting out of it because he'd been out of kind of day to day

politics for a while and people were saying crazy shit to him all the time. And he's like, look at me. And it's like, what are they even talking about? You know? And so he saw that change on the one hand, and then he kind of saw your radicalization on the other hand, because you did the post interview with him. And I remember the moment where you guys were talking about McCain and Palin or something and you're like, yeah, I didn't even vote for John McCain. And he was like, what? You didn't even vote for John McCain?

And I just, like the kind of extinction of the Jeb Republican, I got to live with him. And it's sad. And and it was kind of amusing at the same time. Yeah. So I spent a lot of time with their parents in 16. I went up to Kenny Bunkford. Yeah, I got to too. It was really nice.

Three, I think two or three times during the 16 campaign. And in some ways that was like a better lens for me because they become so close to the Clintons that I don't think they were as allergic to the idea of Democrats in 1516. And they might disagree with this. I've actually never talked to either of them about it. But I think that 41 especially because of his, I mean, you've been there, like it's all he valued diplomacy as a principle. And I think he valued his role as America's diplomat

and president as much as anything that he was ever a part of. So, I think they were able to get to Hillary Clinton in 16 a lot easier than, or at least George H.W. Bush, easier than Jeb or George W. And so, I don't think he was as jolted by what had happened. And Barbara Bush was like, in some ways, the most astute political observer in the whole family. Like I remember talking to her after 08. And she understood not just not just how challenging Palin was as a candidate, but what it meant that the party responded the way they did to Palin. So yeah, I think as a family, they felt it all and they felt a lot of, at least the 41s felt a lot of it.

And I really was never able to draw Jeb out on how he felt about any of it, but I think the 41s felt a lot of it. They were more feelings oriented. Jeb was more like his dad, really, And you get more feelings oriented as you get older. Barbara and Debbie is more like Barbara. I got to spend just a little bit of time with them both. The level of clear-eyed they were about all of this. And I would only get to hear half the convo, but Jeb would call his dad a lot during the

campaign from the car. And I didn't have to actually hear what was on the other side of the phone to get a sense from what 41 was saying about Trump and the move into the party. Their political assessment of our viability was also right on, at least Barbara's was. I mean, look, their political assessment of our weakness in 05. I mean, when I was George W. Bush's communications director, they consumed a lot more of the punditry and the press coverage than he did. And so we heard from them a lot and they were brilliant political minds.

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Call, text, block, and more for only $9.99. Get started with line2.com slash audio or download Line 2 in any app store today. Line 2, your second line, simplified. One more Republican thing and then we'll stop with old Republican shit and do a little bit more business. The Mondale listeners of the podcast are getting bored with this. I told you, there's only like 17 people who give a shit about any of this. Well, luckily they're bought bull or caught as consumers for the most part.

Have you seen the story of Matt Gaetz's mom yelling at him? No. I was texting with your friend, Sally Bradshaw. He mentioned earlier, Jeb's old chief of staff about this this morning. So I do need to mention this. I was on, as I was mentioning last night, I was scrolling social media in bed,

which I shouldn't be doing. This is what I do though, or after midnight, if I can't sleep, I was on TikTok. Shouldn't be on TikTok. I don't even have TikTok. That's how old I am. I mean, it's the Chinese and you shouldn't have it, children. But also the Chinese have done a really great job. My algorithm just feeds me only things I care about. They're very good.

They've figured it out. And among the things I care about was there's this young woman who is on an airplane sitting behind Matt Gaetz and she is vide video taping him feverishly texting on his phone. And Matt Gaetz has admitted this is him already this morning. Then he has old man Fatt on his phone. I don't know, he might need some bifocals. I recommend Williams and I. That's a scoop. Yeah, see it's huge font.

And so you can see it all clearly. And Mrs. Gaetz is chastising him. For what? For going against Trump on the war. Wow. And they're going back and forth and she's like, you're going to lose your job in the media. You're already out of Congress.

That's amazing. And she's like, don't be criticizing the president or his actions. He's trying to keep us safe. Maga will turn on you. Wow. And it's just the whole thing is a funny and also kind of sad encapsulation of like what we've all seen. Yeah. Right?

I tweeted at Matt this morning, I was like, oh, you know, a Fox watching family member is upset that you're not fully on board with Donald Trump. Like welcome to the resistance. We've all been there. Yeah. I don't know. We've all been. Like how do you process all that?

Well, I mean, I think the intervention in the Middle East is a real thing. I mean, I think that Matt Gaetz speaks for probably more MAGA voters than his mother does. I didn't think I'd ever find myself defending Matt Gaetz. But I mean, I think that a lot of what turned off the base of the Republican Party at the end of the Bush era, and you and I both dealt with this in a political context, was support for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. And so I think part of it is just voters found Trump

really entertaining. They liked everything that offended a lot of the rest of us, but they also agreed with him on not getting involved in wars in the Middle East. And so this is the ultimate betrayal. This and making everything more expensive through his asinine trade war are the ultimate political betrayals. Pete Yeah. It's kind of like the, what's the phrase, like the immovable force, the unstoppable

object or whatever it is, the immovable object, unstoppable force, one of them. And with the voters, right, which is being demonstrated in this Gates family text. Yeah. Right? Where it's like on the one hand, it's just slavish cultishness, devotion to Trump. And on the other hand, it's this kind of the pure MAGA id of, oh, the old establishment Republicans did us wrong. And that kind of who wins that battle. That's real, I think.

Totally. And I think the sort of veil on top of all of it is the fear factor. And it ties the Murkowski stuff to the Gates, you know, mother stuff to, you know, because they're so thuggish to their own, there's a real fear to either opposing Trump, even if it's to actually stick up for what Trump was originally about or to, you know, criticize anything he does, even when it looks pretty boneheaded. I'm sure you get this. What do you say to people who come to you and like, I'm guessing you get this as much

as I do, which is like, I listen to you because I've got MAGA family members and like, you're kind of a stand in for them as like a sane person who like I can disagree with on whatever certain policies sometimes. Like, what do you say to like that,, how you deal with the cult side of it? Look, I think you have to love your family no matter who they support and vote for. But I think you have to- You have a menagerie back there. We had babies.

Mike Schmidt walked through. How many animals? There's animals now? I've got three Vichlas today, so I have two Vichlas. Oh, Vichlas. That's cute. Vichlas are nuts. They're baby Vichlas. Oh, Vichlas. So cute. Vichlas are nuts.

They're baby gates, so they might make an appearance. And then I have a third. I have my ex-husband's Vichla who were babysitting for the day. So I've got three little brown dogs. They're so cute. They're Hungarian, right? Vichlas are Hungarian. They're Hungarian pointers.

Yeah, they're so cute. Little fascist dogs. We joke with them about Orban. They got out. They're three, four, and 10, and they're just huge personalities. And so someone is probably, my son and Mike are probably leaving, and so they're probably wailing. Yeah, there's a, I'm sorry, there's a lot of background noise. I know, it's great. Anyway, love you. People want Nicole Wallace unfiltered. They want

to see what's happening in your life. You know, you have this love. I promise you, there's a lot of love for you out there. I hear about it all the time. If I texted you every time somebody was like, can you tell Nicole Wallace, I hope she's doing okay. You'd stop responding to my texts. It's so nice. It's so nice. So anyway, you said you got to love your family members, but- Oh, so you got to love your family members, but I think you have to protect yourself from the gaslighting. And I think this is the work for therapists, not cable news hosts. But I

think that they have now been marinating. Look, I think it really started with the birth certificate, right? If you're really MAGA, you've been along for a lot of the journey. It started with the delusions about Obama and Eric Holder. I remember doing Chris Wallace's show when I wrote a novel. He was such a sweet guy. He said to me, I was on because I'd written a novel. And he was such a sweet guy. And he said to me, I was on because I'd written a novel. And he let me join the Sunday show panel.

And I was going to get to plug my novel. But I had to sort of do News of the Day with him. I said, sure, sure. And he said, you've been out for a while. We're going to talk about The Fast and the Furious. And I was like, what is that? This was when it was sort of a right-wing thing and hadn't really burst. It becomes more of a mainstream political story and it becomes stuff that the

Obama White House has to deal with. But this is early, early. You think about all of the seasons that MAGA voters have watched. It started with the birth certificate, it went through Fast and the Furious, it went through all of the lies, they've been fed. So how I deal with it is that I don't deal with it, I don't talk politics. There's so much that Trump has politicized now that it's like it leaves you kind of talking about the weather and family and stuff that has nothing to do with the world. But that's- What's good in the NBA finals? ... sports. Yeah. I mean, we deal with... But my team is pretty political, so they don't

always love my... But no, I mean, really it is. It's a lot of sports. Because you're two lawyers, right? That's the lawyer. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's a lot of sports. And I do have a piece where with my family, it's just politics. And I love them to death. And we just don't talk about it. It's a lot of sports. And I do have a piece where, with my family, it's just politics, and I love them to death, and we just don't talk about it. for another phone. Whether it's for online shopping, dating, or shielding your main number from spam, Line 2 is an easy way to manage it all. Ready for peace of mind without breaking the bank? Call, text, block, and more for only $9.99. Get started with line2.com slash audio, or download Line 2 in any app store today. Line 2, your second line simplified. All right. On therapist questions, as you mentioned this, uh, this is maybe just a job for your therapist. I remember we talked, we had a talk on set, I don't know, maybe around Christmas time. So it was after the election. Yeah. It was

before Christmas. It was on Thanksgiving actually. Yeah. Yeah. It was pretty soon after. And I was like, I don't know how I'm going to do this. Like I basically said to you, how are you going to do it? I like, I don't know how I'm gonna do this. I basically said to you, how are you gonna do it? I just, I don't know how I'm gonna wake up and care about these fucking people every day. I hate them, they're horrible. I kind of want them to fail, but I don't want the country to fail.

And how can I possibly bring myself to care about this? Like if this was not my job, I would just totally turn off everything and start reading gay novels and just pretend like it doesn't exist. I swear to God That's what I would do. This was if I had a different if my husband was independently wealthy or something And I don't know I've come around on it, but I guess I want prejudices you with your answer How do you how did you process that challenge? Well, I remember that conversation and I think I

Think the hardest thing for me about his victory was that everything he was going to do that threatened the democracy was stuff he said he was going to do. So it's not like, oh, they didn't believe me with my warnings. They didn't believe him. And I thought that was such a mindfuck. He ran on retribution. He ran on charging Liz Cheney and Mark Milley with treason. He ran on turning the FBI and the DOJ inside out.

He ran on putting people like Tulsi Gabbard in charge of national security. He ran on mass deportations. To me, he ran on the dehumanization of people in this country illegally and won. And so that felt like a blow to me. What I have found is that, and Alicia Menendez said this to me, just bear witness. What our viewers need us to do is bear witness. And I have found that that was the best advice I got. Then a lot of people reached out to me and said, what are we doing? I said, just take care of your people.

Check on your people. Check on them every day in the beginning. People that you think are going to be really upset and then just try to see them more. And I feel like those two things are enough, and it's really satisfying. And I actually find doing my job, just holding up a mirror, is easier than it was in Trump 1.0, because he's doing it all in the open.

There would be stories that would break in the Times and the Post, and we'd run through our standards department, and because it was the Times and The Post, we were always allowed to use them. You were relying on what felt like really... My husband did a lot of that reporting. This is almost... I'm not saying there isn't important reporting, but this is almost all out in the open.

We're holding up a mirror and saying, this is what we're getting. I find that, as a cable host, the easiest kind of job. We're just like webcam covered. We're just showing them what's happening. And then I think as my colleague, Rachel Maddow is doing, showing the reaction is really satisfying. Like showing that the American people in year one of a four year term are out in the streets

in historic numbers is incredible. But it's probably the second piece. And that's where the conversation, I think emanated from our conversation. It's, I find myself, have you been like whitewater rafting, like where they tie all the rafts together? Like I feel like we're in, we're like, we're on the rapids, but our rafts are all tied together.

Like the food might fly out and one raft might tip over, but we're all tied together, so someone will come and get us. And so I do kind of feel like I'm on one of those chartered whitewater rafting trips, where we're all tied together so someone will come and get us. And so I do kind of feel like I'm on one of those chartered whitewater rafting trips where we're all tied together and it's bumpy and we knew it was going to be bumpy, but we're all kind of in it together. Does that make sense? It does. It's interesting you say all that because I watch you and it's like, it doesn't seem

like you're mailing it in up there. You're still feeling all the feelings and you're still doing it and showing everybody and passionate about it. And that is kind of a challenge in itself. There are people in media that are mailing it in. Well, I love... So I also think like I had this real shift in my relationship with my viewers during COVID where I stayed home for a year and a half. My son stayed out of school for a year and a half. So it was like me in the basement, into the camera, to the viewers. And what they gave back to me was just, was life-changing. I mean, we celebrated a life well-lived every day,

someone that died from COVID. And I don't know, I just, I meet viewers of the show in the street all the time and it makes my day when people say they watch. Like maybe it's coming to these jobs as a second career that you don't feel like you're entitled to an audience. You don't feel like you're entitled to have these jobs, and so you feel more grateful for them.

But I feel, I don't know if more is the right word, I feel completely inspired by having two hours to fill every day. Well, you're booing me because it's been easier than I thought. I needed your little pep talk because I was worried about it. I mean, don't you feel the same way? I mean, and my viewers- I know. I actually, I've ended up feeling the same way.

I was in a pretty dark place when we had that conversation between the election and maybe two days after the inauguration. The inauguration was pretty hard for me. I think I was on your show, I'm like lashing out. I'm like, why are we acting like this is normal? Like what the fuck is happening right now? You and Michael Steele, we're like, why are we covering this. I'm like, why are we acting like this is normal? What the fuck is happening right now? You and Michael Steele, we're like, why are we covering this? I'm like, I didn't point the camera.

Yeah, like what is this? We're calling him sir, we're grading it like we're figure skating, judging it. The billionaires are like, what is happening? I know. So anyway, I was a little, but I'm with you. I don't know. It's awesome to hear from people. I love the audience. I love hearing from people and it is fulfilling. It's awesome to hear from people. I love the audience. I love hearing from people. And it is fulfilling. It's been more fulfilling than I thought, to just go out there and just say whatever you think.

My audience loves you, I think, because you haven't sugar-coated the journey. Yeah, just feel like what I ended up saying to folks here was, I'm just gonna care what I care about. I'm gonna care about what I care about and talk to you about that. And so if there's stupid Trump stuff, and I'm not gonna pretend to I care about I'm gonna care about what I care about and talk to you about that and so if there's stupid Trump stuff And I'm not gonna pretend to be outraged about it, you know, and we're gonna be on our mode

And some days I'm gonna be angry and some days I'll be sad and some days I'll be laughing at pointing and laughing and we'll just do all of it. Let's just feel all the feelings. Yeah All right, let's do big trip pictures of Trump's up then I'll let you go what scares you the most Everything I mean, I remember the first day I read about the deportations to El Salvador of the alleged Trans-Daragua members for whom no evidence was ever presented that they had anything to do with Trans-Daragua. And I remember saying to Mike, like, I wish I didn't feel so gutted and I wish I could stop thinking about these guys

being scared in El Salvador. And then I was somewhere, I was in Westchester, it's usually a baseball trip that has me, I don't know what I was doing, but we stopped to get something to eat, and I saw the paid ads that Home Security was doing in front of the deportees who were now prisoners at CICOT and I was gutted and I Think I'm sometimes scared by how much

Anguish I feel over how they're treating human beings, but I think that if you Abandon the anguish then you carry out that if you abandon the anguish, then you carry out horrible things against human beings. And so, I don't know, maybe that's just too circular and not very satisfying, but I'm scared about how much it bothers me that so many people are suffering. And I spent some time with folks close to

former President Obama after the election, and I said, what's our guess on what happens? And they kind of said, look, it's not zero chance that it's catastrophic. It's far more likely that we kind of muddle through, but a lot of people are going to suffer. And I'm scared of all that suffering, of witnessing it, of doing it justice, of covering it responsibly.

And I refuse to accept that there's a quorum that wants to see people suffer. I just refuse to accept that. What's your level of alarm that, you know, I use the term pro-democracy coalition and people are always like, oh, it could be the end of democracy. And that's, I always, I get frustrated with that conversation because it's like, you either have democracy or you don't when it's much more nuanced than that. What's your level of alarm that the whole system crumbles over the next three years? Well, he's not suddenly totally competent, right?

So he's not like good at any one thing. The military is still great. And so it appears that the military carried out a plan, executed a plan as it was written out. He's lost more in court than I think probably the last 10 presidents added together times too. I mean, I haven't done the math, but he's running up against a lot of things that are illegal. I try not to get ahead of the story in terms of where will we be in three and a half years.

I've never covered his, you know, I'm gonna run for another term because you can't run for another term. And to do that, you're making all these assumptions if there's no more constitution, there's no more courts. But my alarm in the moment is really around Republicans green lighting anti-democratic practices. It's around Republicans green lighting the politicization of SDNY. I know we had to move on because so much has happened, but these were a bunch of Federalist

Society lawyers of an SDNY that were bringing the Eric Adams case. The fact that Mel Boewe and all these folks at DOJ ran out a bunch of conservatives and Mitch McConnell said nothing whose whole reason for like swallowing it with with you know, swallowing his pride and swallowing his integrity When it came to trump was about remaking the judiciary. So he sits there silently when the trump administration runs out the kind of people that he's Sort of had an affinity for through his entire career. So it's the kind of people that he's sort of had an affinity for through his entire career. So it's the silence of Republicans around the politicization of the rule of law and

the indifference to due process and all the rhetoric around ignoring court rulings that I find the scariest. That's good. That's not hair on fire. That's not what your opponents would say about you. I mean... That's right. I think that's an fire. That's not what your opponents would say about you. I think that's an appropriately, it's like, it could be very bad. There are a lot of concerning warning signs and we'll be here to monitor how it plays

out. That's a healthy way to deal with it, I think. Well, what do you think? That's what I think. My answer to that question is like, I don't know. You tell me, and I mean you being the audience, what percentage chance you think that it is that he tries to do that it is that he tries to do another term or that he tries to end democracy?

And I think that anyone you ask that question to, their answer is somewhere from like 1% to maybe the most tedious riddled people say 80%. But like, if your answer is 1%, that's still very bad. And we're in a very bad place. The answer isn't zero, where it's been for our entire parents' lives and our lives. That's alarming to me and I think that you can be alarmed and be vigilant without being hysterical. Yeah. Look, I think in defense of the people who are hysterical and alarmed, nothing has

held. He was impeached twice and never convinced. The most hysterical people have definitely been more right than the most sanguine people. Correct, correct. And this is why when people trash the left, like the left's been right about most things when it comes to Trump. His biggest political weakness, you think, is his incompetence? Like the biggest vulnerability? Trump's biggest political weakness is indifference to the cost of things. Because there are a ton of voters who voted for him out of economic anxiety. Yeah. All right.

You've got a new pod. I want to hear about that. And then I have one final special rapid fire question. So the new pod, why are you doing it? You're busy enough. You've got two kids now. You're doing baseball tournaments. You're doing weekend anchoring, two hours. You're like, I need something else, I want to beat

Tim Miller in the podcast ranking. What's the motivation for this? So someone said to me, get off my lawn. I wanted to do more when he won. I went to, Rashida was still the president of MSNBC and I wanted to do more. I think Rachel had the same instinct. She went out and anchored the first hundred days. I wanted to do more. I think Rachel had the same instinct. She went out and anchored the first hundred days. I wanted to do more. Nobody that I worked for or with thought a third hour was a good idea. I don't know how, Joe and Mika do it, but they have like a village and it's different when it's one hour. So I also- I'm happy they didn't give you a third hour. That would have been more time for more obligations for me.

You would have spent a lot more time on television. I take the note that the media... I mean, Megyn Kelly talked about this in an interview with the New York Times. I think she's right. This is how people want to hear the news from you, and they don't want it separated from your opinions. You do a better newscast than I do in terms of really like singling or paring it down to things that you know your audience cares about, give them the news and the context.

And I think I wanted to be in the space without trying to replicate what I do on the show. And then I actually think the best people was Trump's best brand. I think in 16, the way he wins the first time is by acknowledging that people might not be totally comfortable with a guy who's never done anything in politics. And so he promises his base, I'll bring in the best people. And then he kind of sort of does it with Mattis and Millie. Reince doesn't count, but you know, some somewhat happy happy. Right, Reince doesn't count. But to his supporters, they look like, Mattis looks like he's at

essential casting and the people that he brings in, he could at least sell it to half the country that they're the best people. I think when he picked Matt Gaetz, he had clearly abandoned the brand. I thought that was the most, to me, the most amazing thing about tapping Matt Gaetz wasn't that he was investigated, right, for child sex trafficking, or that he had sent like so many videos of himself having sex around on his phone

that Mark Wayne Mullin was like, yeah, he could talk about how he, I mean, I don't even wanna say, it's not because I'm a prude, but because it's disgusting mental images. But the whole idea that the best people have been abandoned, and we know the best people, right? The people you talk to, they're the people I get to talk to. I wanted to reappropriate the brand, the best people, and then bring some of the wisdom that I get from people that maybe don't want to come on the show, don't want to be embroiled

in the daily news cycle in the podcast. That's been cool. I was listening to Doc Rivers this morning. He's so cool. I'm jealous. want to come on the show, don't want to be embroiled in the daily news cycle in the podcast. That's been cool. I was listening to Doc Rivers this morning. I'm jealous. He's so cool. He's so cool. I got to get his digits from you. He's so cool. I'm glad you mentioned the short-lived Matt Gaetz nomination. I don't think that anybody, not that we were looking forward to Matt Gaetz being attorney general, we weren't,

but the concept of him as nomination was something that we aligned on as bringing us a little bit of joy during the inter-rec. But you look at Pam Bondy like in hindsight, I'm not sure he would have been worse. Oh, no way. Clue of the Wittnefen. Yeah, I'm with you. It's like the cash situation.

It's like actually the most incompetent people are a better bet for us because they don't know their way around. It's a little harder for them to do jobs. Yeah, yeah. Cash Patel year three is alarming. Now we're back to the, what's the scariest question, Nicole? All right, final thing. Mount Rushmore. I like to ask people to give us a Mount Rushmore. You get the Mount Rushmore of Deadline White House guests. Oh, who are my guests? Who do I put on that?

Yeah. Which of your guests would you put on the Mount Rushmore of your guests? You tell me who they are. You watch my show every day, you're on it. I'm putting you on the spot. You're on it. I'm putting you on the spot. Eddie Glyde is on it. Claire. Claire is on it and Andrew Weissman.

There you go. Ouch. There are some people that are hardest hit right there. We're not going to name them, but I will be sending them this clip. Well, no, but I would just say that the show is built around- John Heilman didn't make it, for example. John Heilman is too busy for me a lot of days, but you never say no, Clara never says no, Eddie Gleide never says no,

and Andrew Weissman never says no, no matter where you guys are. No, Heilman is a media empire in his own right. He doesn't need to be on the deadline white house. I'm just saying, some people are just out there. I'm just gonna leave it at that. I am saying no to you, actually. I'm just saying some people are just up there. I'm just going to leave it at that. I am saying no to you actually. I'm going on vacation, a real vacation.

Oh, I'm so glad. I'm not doing any deadline White House from Madrid. Say no. I'm saying no. One week. You're going to have to survive one week without me. We will be here when you get back. I think deadline White House is like that sports bar that has to have a good turkey

burger and a real salad and be open every night. Like we'll be there, we'll be here when you get back. I look forward to being back. I really appreciate you always having me on. It's a delight. This has been a great joy of this horrible era is getting to know you and I appreciate you doing the pod. I love you so much.

Thank you so much for having me on the pod. All right, we'll see you Nicole. Give my love to the kiddos. Sorry they were so loud. I don't know, maybe in a couple hours probably. I don't know whatever query tells me. That's Nicole Wallace. We'll be back here tomorrow with another one of my favorite guests, not as good as Nicole, but he'll be pretty good.

So we'll see you all then. Peace. It's time to move on, it's time to get going. One life ahead I have nowhere to go. But under my feet baby, grass is growing. It's time to move on, it's time to get going. One life ahead I have nowhere to go. But under my feet baby, grass is growing.

It's time to move on, it's time to get going. One life ahead I have nowhere to go. But under my feet baby, grass is growing. It's time to move on, it's time to get going. One life ahead I have nowhere to go. But under my feet baby, grass is growing It's time to move on, time to get going Broken skyline, moving to the airport She's an honest defector, conscientious objector Now her own protector A broken skyline, which way to love land? Which way to something better?

Which way to forgiveness? Which way do I go? It's time to move on, time to get going. With what lies ahead I have no way of knowing. But under my feet baby, grass is growing. It's time to move on, time to get going. I'm gonna get going Sometime later Getting the words wrong Wasting the meaning Losing the rhyme

Snazziest adrenaline Breaking up a dogfight Like a tear in the headlights Frozen in real time, humbles in my mind It's time to move on, time to get going What lies ahead I have no way of knowing But under my feet baby grass is growing It's time to move on, it's time to get going

The Bullard Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brepp