The Bulwark Podcast - Raphael Warnock: Fight for Your Democracy

Episode Date: June 10, 2026

Donald Trump knows he is on target to lose the midterms, so he's busy laying the groundwork now for challenging the outcome in the fall. That's why he seized the 2020 ballots in Fulton County, why he's determined to get hatchet man Bill Pulte in place as director of national intelligence, and why he’s pushing the South to gerrymander back to the dark days of Jim Crow. This is not the time to despair or to outsource the fight for democracy to others. Sen. Warnock also talks about centering ordinary people in politics, the Supreme Court's deeply dishonest Callais ruling, the performative piety of JD Vance and Mike Johnson, the high likelihood that Trump mocks God—and doesn't believe in anything except his own self-enrichment. Plus, Tim on the deliciousness of Nancy Mace's fifth-place showing in the South Carolina governor's race.Sen. Raphael Warnock joins Tim Miller. show notes Sen. Warnock's new book, "The Crooked Places Made Straight," out next week

Hey, everybody. We've got a good one with Raphael Warnock up next. We're getting to some heavy matters. You're speaking to a pastor, and I kind of, you know, I feel like I've got the presence of God with me. I don't want to be a sinner, you know, and I don't want to completely give in to my worst impulses of mocking my neighbor. And so I decided to keep this little section where I mock Nancy Mace right at the top without Raphael Warnock involved. so I can do it free of any lingering Catholic guilt. Nancy Mace, don't know if you saw it, lost last night in her South Carolina race for governor. I'm going to go through for you the final election results here in the South Carolina governor's race. There were some other elections last night, which we've talked about.

Platner wins in Maine. Unfortunately, Lindsay Graham avoids a runoff in the Senate. The only one that really, really catches my eyes is this governor's results. So if you hadn't seen it, stick with me here because it might take a second to get to Nancy. First place, advancing to the runoff. Lieutenant Governor Pamela, Avette. She received 28.9% of the vote,

which is kind of an embarrassment for Trump as well while we're adding embarrassments to this. Trump endorsed her and couldn't even get her to a third of the vote. She almost loses that first round. Alan Wilson, who Nancy Mace accused of being a pedophile protector, he ends up at 26%. Unclear if that's because the voters of South Carolina did not believe Nancy Mace's attacks on Alan Wilson

or whether South Carolina Republican primary voters are into pedophile protectors now, since that's what the president's doing. I'm not sure why it was that he did so well, but there it is, 26% for Alan Wilson. Ralph Norman. Insurrectionist Ralph Norman turned Nikki Haley endorser in the 2024 primary. Strange character. He finishes at 17%.

So I think that's important to know. Somebody that endorsed against Trump in the 2024 primary third place, 17%. A man named Rom Reddy, R-O-M. It's a strange name. R-O-M-R-M-R-M-R-M-R-Ey. He's a weird-looking fella. I can't lie. I don't know anything about Rom-Ready. I can't give you one fun fact about him.

He got 14.2% fourth place. Coming in in fifth place, Congresswoman Nancy Mace, 12.1% of the vote. Fifth place, many people on social media noted that was the same place that anti-trans activist Riley Gaines finished in her swim meet that started her career as somebody whose number one issue is making sure that trans girls can't participate in women's sports because it was unfair to her as somebody who tied for fifth place in a meet that she's. She did not get fifth place as a standalone. That's what Riley Gaines wanted. Her and Nancy now have this in common. They are both singularly focused on checking the genitals of middle school sports athletes. And they've both finished fifth place in their most significant campaigns.

So it's nice that they have that bond together. I do have to note the deliciousness of this. As happy as I am about it, I'm not sure. sure there's anybody happier than Delaware congresswoman Sarah McBride, who has been the victim slash target of Nancy Mace's smears and slurs. And Nancy's repeated comments about how Sarah should not be able to go into the women's restroom and how she feels at risk because of it, et cetera. We had Sarah McBride. She was at our free andry event. I also interviewed her subsequently on the pod. The best. She's great. And tried to bait her into going after Nancy.

but she was being a respectful leader, you know, and demurred. Little sly remarks about how Nancy would never say anything like that to her face, which I think was funny. All of these tough maga guys and gals, you know, are really aggressive keyboard warriors. But when it comes to actually, you know, confronting someone and being a grown-up, when Raphael Warnock did it to Mike Johnson, we'll get into that. They don't have the gumption for that.

They don't have the ovaries for that. I think that if you're Sarah McBride, You're like, you get one kind of pass, one night. On the night that Nancy Mays finishes in fifth place in her race, you get one chance to kind of revel in it. And I think that we can all just kind of give her a hall pass on that. More than a hall pass. We can all maybe just enjoy it together.

Just have a little sweet treat together. So I'm going to play for you, Sarah McBride last night. She had me on stage at an equality event while the results were coming in. And let's take a listen to what she is. had to say. My colleague and Congress's top bathroom sheriff Nancy Mace is on the ballot. And while not all of the votes have been counted yet, she is in a respectful fifth place. And I believe in the politics of grace. So all I will say is happy prime Nancy. Bathroom sheriff, the head bathroom, get her a badge. Get her a badge. Get Nancy Mace a badge. She's not going to

a congresswoman for long and she's not going to be the governor. And so she could get one of those kind of like children's sheriff badges, say bathroom sheriff on it. And, you know, that can replace her congressional pin. And she can walk around South Carolina monitoring bathrooms at Talbets for Kids stores and youth baseball games and, I don't know, water parks might be a good job for Nancy Mace. The other funny thing about Nancy Mace is not just about the trans stuff. Nancy Mace ran the most ridiculous campaign imaginable. And there is this rule of thumb we've all been playing by,

which is that the Republican primary voters want to vote for the craziest son of the bitch in the race. So is Thomas Massey's coinage. All great aphorisms, though, such as that, have an exception that proves the role. And it turns out the crazy Nancy Mace is the exception that proves the rule. She is too crazy even for the Republican primary voters. She ran on a campaign of blocking Sharia law from coming into South Carolina. It's like there are nine Muslims in South Carolina. Nobody was worried that Sharia law was going to be taking over the state.

She offered, I think probably the stupidest tax policy that I've ever heard saying that only elderly people should not pay property taxes. This was a last-ditch effort to win over the olds that vote in Republican primaries. It's like, you know, hey, if you're a recent. college grad living in Charleston or Columbia and you know you've had a couple of jobs you've saved up enough money you're going to buy your first home a little starter home you've got to pay property taxes but the boomer who's watched their 401k go up 200% while they've you know had four weeks of vacation they've got a pension they're sitting on their ass you know out in their McMansion that only has three rooms that they use out of 12,

that person doesn't have to pay property taxes. That was Nancy Mesa's proposal. Honestly, the stupidest, most insulting tax proposal I've ever heard. So, you know, there's that. So Sharia law, there's just her disgusting behavior, the nastiness with which she treated her colleagues, her willingness to just be totally shameless in sucking up to Donald Trump.

She's been a scourge on the comments, Congress and she would have been a scourge on the state of South Carolina state that I still do have some affinity for. And so she will not be the Palmetto Rose and the governor's mansion. We'll head to a runoff between Alan Wilson and Pamela of that. We'll keep an eye on that. But I just wanted to wish a happy trails to Nancy Mace. You will not be missed. We hope you disappear into the ether of News Nation panels or.

I don't know, you know, going on swingers boat cruises where you may or may not contract a virus that RFK stopped doing research into preventing. Godspeed to you, Nancy Mace, very delicious. I am enjoying in your pain. And I did want to get that out of the way before I talked to the pastor at MLK's church up next. It's Senator, Rapiel Warnock, stick around. I don't know about you, but for me, if I'm excited about something, whether that be a pod interview, an article I want to write, a hot take I want to pop off. For example, I just popped off a bonus hot take, which you should go check out in the

board takes feed on this insane New York Times article about a situation room meeting about the Epstein cover-up. Absolutely got to go listen to that. If I'm excited like that, if I'm so excited, I'm going to promote it in the middle of an ad read, it means I'm going to do a better job at it. It means the content's going to be better. If I'm half-assing something, you know, like the laundry, it means you're going to get wrinkled shirts like I have on right now. And this is a lesson that you can apply to hiring.

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That's ZipRecruiter.com slash Bullwark. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. Well, and welcome to the Bullwark podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to welcome to the show, a Democratic senator from Georgia, senior pastor of Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta. He's got a new book coming out next week.

The Crooked Place has made straight reflections on the moral meaning of America. It's Raphael Warnock. How you doing, Senator? I'm great. Good to see you. Great to be with you. Man, thank you.

Welcome to the show. but wanting to do this for a minute. We're going to do some God talk, some book talk at the end of the pod. You know, maybe take me to church a little bit, but we've got to do a little news first, if that's all right. Sure. Yesterday, the president put out a post saying that he was actually moving up the timeline for Bill Pulte to be the director of national intelligence.

Pulte, obviously, has no experience for this, no background. He was like a maga scam artist before taking over the housing group and stuff. the administration where they were going after people based on their mortgages if they were foes of the president. What did you make of that? I mean, there's been a lot of pushback in the Senate against the president on this nomination. And not only is he not pulling back on Pulte, stepping on the gas, trying to move it up 11 days. Yeah, I don't know what the president is thinking. Bull Pote is a non-starter, full stop. You know, as someone who represents the people of Georgia, Fulton County, I'm deeply troubled by the prospect of Bill Pulte having his hands on our national

intelligence. You know the Fulton County Board of Elections was raided by the Trump administration. It was an FBI raid, but for some, you know, the, the, the, the, the DNI was there, Tosi Gabbard. Pulte has already demonstrated that he's more than willing to lie, more than willing to engage in scandalous. behavior at best to try to besmirch the reputation of whoever Trump perceives to be his enemies. And so that should be deeply concerning for all Americans, because that's Democrats and Republicans. So I don't know what the president is thinking, just in practical terms. In terms of his agenda, we are in the midst of debating the FISA legislation right now. That legislation cannot pass without some Democratic votes.

and I don't see how he gets how he has a shot with Pulte being the fly in the environment. Yeah, and I guess it seems to me that he cares more about having a hatchet man a DNI than he does about FISA, you know, because this was really some of the biggest pushback we've seen from a bipartisan group of senators, you know, saying that they're not going to go forward to FISA. And his response to that was, okay, well, we're just going to put him in earlier. Exactly.

I looked at this appointment when it was announced a few days ago. And I said to myself, is there any part, any part of Donald Trump's job that he takes seriously? These are matters of national intelligence. The man is unqualified. He knows nothing about national intelligence. And, you know, apparently one of the qualifications for appointments to the Trump administration is that you have to be wholly unqualified. So that would be Pete HECS, that would be RFK, we could go on and on. But we're talking about the nation's national security. We're talking

about the nation's national security. And that's serious business. There are enemies that want to hurt us who want to kill Americans. And, you know, the same problem that we face in a way with the CDC is what we're facing with this administration in this sense, that our national intelligence agencies like the CDC often protect us from things that would harm us that we never see, whether we're talking about bugs and viruses, CDC, that's been attacked by this administration, or our adversaries who would love to do us harm, and most Americans don't think about it every day because you don't get much credit for the things that others who are working and whose job it is to stay up at night worrying about these things are holding at bay. Now, let me be really clear. There's some issues with Pfizer, that there's some reform that needs to be happening. And we need to be engaged in that debate right now in a fulsome way. Because it's really about how do you balance security on the one hand and civil liberties on the other? And those are issues that I take very seriously. And I wish we were having a robust debate about that in the Senate right now and in the Congress, rather than having to be

aggravated and distracted by a ridiculous nomination of the likes of Bill Pulte. Do you have a sense for what they're trying to do in Fulton County? Like, I mean, at this point, have you had any additional oversight or information? I mean, why was Tulsi there? Do you have a sense for what kind of shenanigans Bill Pulte could get up to? you know, with regards to the elections. Donald Trump knows he can't win. He knows that the American people are not buying what he's selling.

As a candidate, he said he was going to keep us out of wars and lower our costs. He's done the exact opposite. Regardless of your politics, you've got to acknowledge that what we're witnessing is the exact opposite. We are in yet another war in the Middle East with no apparent endgame, no clear of objectives. This president has ordered more attacks on more nations than any president in modern American history. And meanwhile, Georgians are standing at the gas pump today, wondering why is it costing so much of their income just to be able to get around in their cars and then to go to grocery stores where they can't afford the groceries. So, you know, what is he up to in Fulton County?

he's up to the same thing he's up to in the whole country. He's trying to cast doubt on the coming election, which he knows he is on target to lose by continuing to besmirch an election that happened six years ago. Think about that. They went to Fulton County to smash windows, if you will, smash and grab ballots, ballots from 2020. Some of the folks who were elected in that election aren't. longer even in office. And, you know, apparently my election and John Ossoff's election and Joe Biden's election was a fraud. And on the same ballot, the members of the Georgia congressional delegation,

most of whom are Republican, I guess there was no fraud in that part of the ballot and fraud on our, I mean, explain it to me. It doesn't make, it doesn't make sense, which is why he, you know, he stormed off the other day when a journalist on meet the press, when Kirsten, tried to challenge him on this issue. He's trying to muddy up the election and sow the seeds and seed the ground for the ways in which I think they're going to come for the democracy and come for the integrity of elections if he doesn't get the outcome he wants in the fall. Yeah, let's talk about the other ways they've been trying to muddy with the elections, and that was this mid-decade redistricting fight that they kicked off, that then culminates

with the Calais ruling a little bit ago now. We've seen changes in Louisiana. where I live, they canceled people's votes and are going to have a new election with new districts to get rid of one black representative, like the Cleo Fields. In Tennessee, they made changes. So Memphis doesn't have representation in Alabama. They made changes in Georgia where you're at. I guess it's next week. They're going to start this special session to look into a gerrymander for looking ahead to 2028.

I wonder where your head is at now today, now that like the dust is settled on this, on the best way to fight back. against this effort to attain our elections from the White House and the Supreme Court? Let's be really clear. The Calais decision, what the Supreme Court did the other day, is a devastating and deeply consequential blow to our entire election system. Donald Trump, to be sure, in real sense, started this fire by calling into Texas and saying, I need five more seats. And that's how this episode, at least, of gerrymandering began. And then the Supreme Court poured fuel on the fire.

And as a result of that, we're seeing Louisiana, we're seeing other states, Alabama, in the middle of elections, busy trying to jimmie rig the outcome of the election, trying to give politicians a louder voice than the voters during an election, literally turning our democratic system on its head so that rather than the voters picking their representatives, politicians are busy trying to pick their voters. That's what gerrymandering is. I have a bill that would ban gerrymandering. I support what California did. I support what Virginia did. And because we can't, as Democrats, we can't afford to unilaterally

disarm. I think we've got to not just. win this election, we've got to save our dog on democracy. And so in light of that, we can't unilaterally disarm. But I would support banning partisan gerrymandering altogether. I think the democracy would be much better off. I have a bill to do that. So far, I've had no Republican takers. If folks are watching this and they don't like seeing this race to the bottom, we could end this tomorrow. But I've been speaking to my Republican friends. I actually said to the Speaker of the House yesterday when he and I had a private meeting, hey, Mr. Speaker, you know, why don't you join me in this anti-Germanering bill?

So far, no takers. No takers. I want to come back to that meeting in a second. I'm just wondering, though, okay, so they're not going to play by the rules. We know that they're trying to rig the system. They don't care. They'd be happy for there to be no majority, minority, districts in the South, like that this is not a value to the Republicans at all. And so, okay,

what are the tools at disposal? You mentioned California and Virginia fighting back. Another one is just galvanizing people, you know, pushing back with people power, turnout in the next election, you know, trying to use this against them in places where there's a backlash where people might, you know, tend to want to be, you know, more conservative, but they don't want to rip away all the black representation in the South. People don't want to go back to 1964. in the country. Some people don't. Where does the energy come from to change something before this midterm or as we look forward to 2028? No, we should be very clear. This is Jim Crow in new clothes. This is a move thanks to the Supreme Court, thanks to partisan politicians who are only focused in

getting an advantage. They're busy trying to move the South. And it breaks my heart. I'm a out of the South, representing the South, they're trying to move us back to the darkest days in our country's history when, you know, there was no representation of black people, no black representation in Congress, and they're going after these districts. And when people ask me, you know, what the Supreme Court, let me just say what the Supreme Court did was deeply, intellectually dishonest. They basically said not only to folks in terms of congressional districts, but even local races, that you can engage in gerrymandering. just say that it's not about race. Just give us another explanation. And the onus is on the other

folks who are petitioning to prove what's in your mind. And it's deeply dishonest because the racial lines and the partisan lines in the South, particularly, sadly, they're not the exact same lines, but there's a lot of continuity between those two things for obvious reasons. When President Johnson passed a civil rights bill into law. He said, I'm sorry that I have probably signed the South over to the Republicans for a very long time. And sure enough, the Dixiecrats of old in the old Democratic Party went to the Republican Party. And there were a lot of black Republicans, including Dr. King's own father, pastor of the church that I now lead. Daddy King became a Democrat. And so there's a history to this.

And the idea that you can disaggregate race from partisanship in the South when race was at the center of the thing in the first place and continues to be is deeply dishonored. So what we've got to do in this moment, because this is not just about black voters. It's really about our whole coalition. It's about this new multiracial, multigenerational American electorate that they're trying to stop at the corner. We're talking about women voters. They're still trying to pass to save that, which would disproportionately hurt women. We're talking about citizens united that squeeze the voices of ordinary people out of their election, gives corporate entities an outsized voice in our politics.

And we're seeing the direct result of that is more and more wealth is concentrated at the top in our country. And so this is really about saving the voices of ordinary people. Black people, brown voters, young people, poor work. class people, women. It's about having representation that looks like America. And so part of what we've got to do is we've got to beat back against those who would try to so demoralize us, who would try to weaponize despair in such a way that people don't even bother to show up and help voters to understand that you've got to fight for your democracy. Now you must show up more, more now than ever. Yeah, let's talk about that despair. I mean, you mentioned that.

LBJ. I pulled up the quote it was. I think we just delivered the South of the Republican Party for a long time to come. I don't even know if LBJ would have believed you if you said, if you said, yeah, 2026. I mean, 60 plus years later. Wow. Not only did you deliver the South of the Republicans, but they're still trafficking in this same, you know, race-based, divisive politics in order to grab hold on the South. And I think that would have even surprised him. In your book, in the introduction, you wrote this, I find. that I must labor assiduously just to beat back the shadows of despair lurking in my own heart. And I assume you wrote that before

Kalae, since it takes a while for book to come out. And I just, that's pretty striking. Like, labor assiduously to beat back the shadows of despair. I imagine a lot of our viewers and listeners can relate to that and, like, go through times of despair. And you

got to get up every day and actually work. And I'm just wondering for you to talk about, like, what that looks like. How are you laboring? to beat that back? Well, you know, we shouldn't sugarcoat it. This is a dark moment in our country. It really is. And we're fighting to hold on to the best in the American story,

a story that I'm deeply committed to. I love my country. That's why I do this work. But we've been at this a long time, and it's ironic that as we approach to 250th birthday of the American grand experiment in democracy, We're fighting just to hold on to that idea. And we literally have an administration that is at war with diversity,

which is at the core of the American experiment. E pluribus unum, out of many one. That's who we are. We've had to fight to get there. And I have to tell you, as I move around, every now and then I literally have people, some folks have pulled me out of a parade that I was walking in, and they're literally grabbing me by my lapels. and say, please save us, please save us. And what I say to those citizens is I'm going to do

everything I can to fight for you because, you know, I'm inspired by leaders, some of whom are still with us. You know, I live in Atlanta, so I walk among the giants of the civil rights movement. Andy Young is my friend and my mentor. John Lewis was my parishioner. I know that there are folks who came before us who didn't have any reason to believe that they, could win. And so what I say to those citizens who say to me, please save us, I'm going to fight for you. But you don't get to outsource democracy. All of us have to fight. And the good news is that the tools, I do believe, the tools in our democratic experiment, if we have citizens of courage who are willing to wield them, showing up to vote, protest, raising your voice, engaged in the system,

that the way to fight this assault is to expand the margins of the democracy, even as they're trying to contract them. And this midterm election is an important moment in that struggle. But we can't wait until November. We've got to be engaged in the fight right now. Did you talk to those civil rights leaders that came before you about that personal quest, though, that personal challenge, like how you deal with lack of belief that things could get better? I mean, nail had to go through that, right? I assume they felt like that things weren't ever going to get better. Well, you know, right after the civil rights bill was passed into law,

Dr. King and other members of his staff went to see President Johnson. Andy Young told me the story. And he said that they walked in the office, and the president, of course, was he bullion and joyful that they had passed the civil rights bill in the law. And Dr. King said, great, we passed that bill in the law. And Dr. King said, great, we passed that bill into law. Wonderful. I need a voting rights law.

Like he didn't skip a beat. I need voting rights. My people cannot vote. And if you can't vote, you're not a citizen. 15th Amendment had passed. Remember, 100 years earlier. So folks who say, well, who's stopping you from voting? You're ignoring our history.

Black people had the right to vote on paper when the 15th Amendment was passed 100 years before the civil rights movement. But they couldn't vote. And so Dr. King said, my people can't vote. and the president began to say, well, I hear what you're saying, Dr. King, but I can't get that done right now. I don't have the power to do it. And they left a meeting, and the staff was feeling demoralized and feeling dejected. And they said, Dr. King, what are we going to do? The President of the United States said that he doesn't have the power right now, doesn't have the power to get us the franchise.

And Dr. King looked at them and he said, well, if the president doesn't have the power, I guess we're going to have to go to the south and get himself. Here he is an ordinary citizen. What do you think about that? An ordinary citizen? He doesn't hold an office. He's not a United States senator. He's the pastor of a little church on Auburn Avenue.

And he said if the president, the most powerful man on the planet, doesn't have the power to get us our votes, we're going to go and get him some. And so when you see John Lewis and Josea Williams crossing that Edmund Pettus Bridge with brute force under the color of law on the other side, and they keep on walking. They're literally answering President Johnson's question. They're going to get the presidents in power

to create the context for the change that they want to see in the world, and I'm sitting here as a result of that. And so there are moments when I do have to push back against despair, but I refuse to give in to those who are trying to weaponize despair. The way you respond is you keep walking. The thing that I worry about, and I recognize this as like a white guy podcaster, this is kind of an unfair question to like, you know, put it on black folks to have to fight for their own rights again after all this time. But you look at it and it just like is like the reality of our political situation where like some people have succumbed to despair.

And like you look at the 2024 election and, you know, turnout was higher among obviously Trump's base among white voters. black men, younger black men, in particular, voted at a high rate for Trump than they had in the past. And so now we're in the middle of the civil rights fight. And it's like, how do you engage with those voters that the Democrats lost? And John Fabri, you were on POD, Save America. He asked you about this question. I thought it was interesting that the first thing that you said was, like, talking to young black men, you basically just said that fighting against sexism and for women's rights doesn't mean that you're not fighting for young men, right?

you can do both. And the fact that you started with that made me wonder if, like, you think that that is part of the problem where basically younger black men like don't feel like the Democrats, like, care about them and are fighting for them. Is that, is that a challenge, you think, in trying to get people back motivated, you know, or is there something else? I think that you have to meet voters where they are and talk directly to them in language that they can see themselves in the conversation. You know, I still return to my pulpit every Sunday morning. I pastor Evanisa Church.

And back in days when I had more time, I used to teach midweek Bible study. I was holding Bible studies and car washes around the corner from the church. I was creating a barbershop at my church and inviting men to come. And then we'd have conversations there in places that they frequent. But then people have to see themselves in the conversation. And I just think that where black men are concerned, we're ordinary, just not just black men, young men, voters in general, ordinary people. I think sometimes people around the Beltway get caught up in a kind of vocabulary

in way of talking, which is why I go to my pulpit every Sunday and go back to my community because you can, you know, your intention. I think our policies are good. I think our policies are certainly better than the other side. But men who are just trying to figure out, how am I going to be able to afford my life? How am I going to take care of my children? Black men want what other people want? What's the path to a prosperous life where I can just not get by but thrive?

And my family can do well. And I can have the dignity that comes with work and work that pays a livable wage and allows me to retire with dignity and be able to go to the doctor or send my kid to the doctor when they need to go to the doctor. I think in some ways our party has become so captive to corporate interests that people need to see us putting forward more, I think, bolder plans around these issues, and they need to hear us fighting for them, and we need to be talking to the people we purport to represent, which is why I return to my community every week. You know, in the black church, the preaching, just talking, it's calling response. They talk back to me, and it's in that give and take that I

figure out what I ought to be saying and what ought to be doing. It's good. At the start of the book, you learned me something about how that works in Black Church. It's essentially, if they agree, it's an amen. If you don't agree, but I'm sticking with you, it's the Lord help me. And I'm a little bit Lord Help Me on that answer, actually. And I want to talk to you about why, because I feel like you're at the middle of this, like these two groups that, like, Democrats are struggling with, right? Like, I just mentioned the younger black man, but also people of faith, like Democrats have lost ground with religious voters. And sometimes you said that you think the policies are right. I'm not going to argue with that. I think the problem is that the Democrats

focused. They're not big enough. Well, yeah, okay, maybe that's part of it. Maybe they're just talking too much about the policy papers. I don't know. I think that if you went to that carwash or that barbershop or you talk to religious voters and another part of Atlanta, white religious voters. I think that they would say that the Democrats don't care about them. The Democrats care about college educated, elite, woke, whatever nonsense. And like they care about language policing and that they don't care about their concerns. I think that's what they would say, right? The Democrats kind of look down on them and are dismissive of their beliefs or concerns.

And I think that's the problem. And I wonder how you like fix that and what the way is to like make those folks feel heard. I see no evidence at all that Donald Trump cares about those people. I think the voters are going to get another chance to think about that this November, as they are seeing their groceries skyrocketed, as they're seeing him lay upon all of us, burden all of us with the most regressive tax policy we have seen in my lifetime, rather than having wealthy corporations and wealthy people pay their fair share, he's taxing everybody. This is the biggest tax burden.

I mean, you talk about, you want to call Democrats tax and spend. He's taxing everybody on everything. So I don't see any evidence that he cares about those people. He's doing a really good job of looking out for a family, his own family. they're richer than they've ever been. So people have a chance to look at that. That said, that said, I now, now that I'm in the Senate, and I'm a part of this crazy thing that we do in D.C.

Hopefully, you know, on behalf of ordinary people, you do get a win every now that. I now know more than I did as an activist. Yeah. Washington, D.C. is too captive to interests big money, big corporations, and in the midst lobbyists, and in the midst of all of that, the voices of ordinary people get squeezed out of their democracy, which is why the first two chapters of my book,

The Crooked Places Made Straight are about voting rights and about dark money, dark money in our politics. I'm proud of the fact that because I won, because I won, When I came to the Senate, we were able to pass a law that allowed Medicare for the first time to negotiate with Big Farmer the price of prescription drugs. Now, I want you to think about that. First of all, the fact that we had to pass a law so that Medicare could even negotiate, tells you everything you need to know about the outsized impact of these corporate interests, big farmer, big oil, you name it. Right? We had to pass a law for you.

to be able to do what you ought to be able to do in any capitalist society. If somebody's trying to sell me something, ought to be able to argue with them and haggle over the price. And literally, it was illegal to do so. I think most voters might be surprised to hear that. But then we passed a law to do it, and it applied initially to 10 drugs. That's it, 10 drugs. And it took four years for that to be put into place. If we're honest, that says, that politicians on both sides of the aisle are having to make certain kinds of concessions with big money because our system is a wash in money. And people feel that.

They're not wrong. The poor white people in Louisiana, they rightly see that there's a disconnect between where they live and the conversation. for black folk growing up in rural parts of Georgia, same thing. And somehow we've got to get back to a politics that centers ordinary people. I also do think that some religious people feel like the Democrats look down on them. And I think back a conversation I had with a young guy, he was on the show Jubilee. I don't know if you see that.

I did this. You sit in the middle and then you have 20 people yell at you. You've seen somebody do that? I think Wes Moore is doing it coming up. It's a popular show with. the youth. It's like an arguing show. And one of the young MAGA guys said, basically, you know, I'm paraphrasing, but he said he thinks that the Democrats mock God. And he says, you go to a Trump event and there's a prayer beforehand and you go to a Kamla event and you have Megan the stallion

twerking before that. And obviously this is like not fair and crazy and Donald Trump's a false profit. But like the perception is real, I think. The perception exists. And I wonder if you sense that that's a problem, if there's something that the Democrats can do to talk to those those folks better that have that perception? I wonder how you would react or how you'd talk to somebody who said that to you. Look, I'm a pastor. I'm a Christian. And my faith is what drove me into this work. And the issues that I, that you hear me talking about, health care, dealing with poverty, these are things that I talked about from my pulpit long before I entered a race for the Senate. I would ask those voters, you know, the scripture says everyone who cries,

Lord, Lord, doesn't mean that they're going to enter in. And Donald Trump has many things. A man of faith, he certainly is not. I think he mounts God. I think Donald Trump, in the secret moments, when behind closed doors laughs at religious people. Definitely. He's deeply cynical.

He doesn't believe in anything other than himself in his own self-aggrandizement and his self-enrichment. And if religion gets in the way of that, He and J.D. Vance, the newly converted Catholic, who recently said that the Pope ought to be careful about how he's talking about theology, they'll throw the Pope, the faith and everything else under the bus if it gets in the way of their politics. I think Democrats should not be shy in owning their faith. There's a way to live in your faith and talk about it that does not force that upon others in the public square. So part of what it means for me to be a person of faith is to recognize that I live in my faith and under the law. And that this grand experiment we have, again, as we approach the 250th anniversary, is that we are a diverse, multifaceted Democratic Republic that creates space for people to live in their faith, various faith traditions. I think I owe it to the covenant we have with one another to speak up every time Islam was condemned

and Muslims are condemned just for being Muslims and to stand up for my Jewish sisters and brothers and for those who claim no faith tradition at all and I think sometimes Democrats are so squeamish in thinking about the separation of church and state which I believe in. I don't want to live in a theocracy that they're afraid to talk about it at all.

Here's how my faith lives in my faith lives in my work. It's really, it's not my creeds. When I come to this office to do this work, it's not my creeds that I bring to the, to the work. It's my values. Love, justice making, truth-telling, empathy, centering the poor. And guess what? Those are values that are resonant in all of the great faith traditions and people of moral courage who claim no faith at all. And the covenant we have of one another is that we ought to be able to engage in that conversation in a respectful way and hopefully create something that I think looks like the kingdom of God, a country that's big enough to embrace all of our children.

I agree with all of that 98% of the time. I think 2% of the time we can be disrespectful, and I might give you a chance to do that right now. You mentioned J.D. He managed to find two new religions at the same time. He became a Catholic right as he was taking on Donald Trump as his personal savior, which is kind of a miracle. Amen. No, no, no, no tension in those two things. Lord help me. Yeah, it isn't. The timing is interesting, I thought. I was just wondering if you had any observations about that and about our vice president's faith journey.

J.D. Vance is perhaps the most craven politician in the American landscape. We've seen a lot of folks, you know, doing about face on Donald Trump. But with him, it's striking. Here's a man who called Donald Trump a man. America's Hitler. And then he spent a lot of time, a few years later, literally campaigning, not just for a Senate seat, but campaigning to an audience of one to become his running mate. And he's just deeply craven. And it's hard to know really what his moral center is and what is he, what is he driven by. In some ways, he's scarier than Donald Trump. I think it's interesting. He's on a tour, you know, talking about his faith, you know, I have to take you at your word. You know, you say you're a person of faith, but I'm going to hold you accountable to that. When the Pope began to speak in a way that Pope speak and said, hey, you know, what about peace, fighting for peace? And he gets scolded by one of

the newest converts to Catholic faith. And he tells the Pope, be careful you're talking about theology as if the Pope is out of his lane, talking about theology. And here's what we know. If what the Pope was saying was consistent with what J.D. Vance wanted to do politically, he'd have no problem with it at all. It's just that he found the Pope's words to be inconvenient, which is often the case. Prophets and prophetic speech often makes politicians concern and. And, and, you know, and creates inconveniences for the agenda that they want to put forward, especially if it's an agenda that's focused on war, not peace, an agenda focused on enriching the folks who are already rich

and not centering the most marginalized members of the human family. It is just fun. I mean, the timing is just ridiculous. We can't laugh at it. Look, I've Catholic converts to my family. I'm a cradle Catholic, you know. We've had some married into the family, did the conversion journey. that's, I'm for it.

I recognize that some people decide that they have to suck up to Donald Trump to get power in the Republican Party. I understand it. Doing both at the same time. It's like, wait a minute. It doesn't really compute. Well, the problem is he has two popes. Yeah.

The one in Rome and the one. I think probably has the subservient one, unfortunately, is the problem for the Catholic journey. My fellow Louisiana and Mike Johnson, you mentioned you at a meeting with him yesterday. I want to hear about that. For people who miss the story, just I'll give them background. A big thing that you write about in this book and yet another book where you covered the same kind of turf is this question of in faith, as a faith leader, there are ways that you could focus on personal piety, and then there are ways you can focus on systemic injustice. And you know, you should, faith leaders should look at both, right? Like not have just one.

And you're kind of criticizing a lot of conservative faith leaders who focus entirely on personal piety, but not at all about the broader. injustices in the world. And within that context, you criticized Mike Johnson in a New York Times interview where he said, I don't understand how you read the big beautiful bill, say a long prayer, hold hands with your fellow legislators, and then cut a trillion dollars out of Medicaid. That's right. You said it's performative. Mike Johnson got his feelings hurt when you said that.

And you guys had a meeting yesterday. So I'm just kind of wondering how that shook out. Well, you know, he apparently saw what I said in New York Times before I did. and I got in the office. My staff said that the speaker had asked, could he meet with me? And, you know, I was sure. I'll meet with him every Sunday morning after the sermon has preached. We baptists say something.

We say the doors of the church are open. And we invite those who want to come to Jesus, those who want to make a decision based on the sermon that had been preached. So I was glad that that God has. attention. I was happy to talk to him about it. But let me be really clear. This is not about Mike Johnson and it's not about Raphael Warnock. This is about the people we represent. And the people in his own district is emblematic of the work that we must do. There are people in his own district. Children. About 47,000 fewer children are signed up for Medicaid in his own state as a result of

their actions. They're literally taking the food out of the miles of hungry children with these draconian cuts to snap that have disproportionately hurt rural red districts. And so I was speaking to him as a Christian brother. He wasn't the focus of that conversation. It came up. And I'm going to continue to hold all of us accountable. You know, Dr. King kept saying this line that kept appearing in his letter from a Birmingham

jail. He kept saying I'm so disappointed in the church. He said, as I travel through the South and I see its massive churches and its spires pointing heavenward, I ask myself, what kind of people worship there and who is their God? In other words, he was pointing out the disconnect between the creeds and the deeds. And if we are indeed people of faith, then poor people ought to be centered, working class people. Children certainly ought to be centered in our public policy. and I will continue to hold all of us accountable, all those sides of the aisle.

Had you met Mike Johnson before that yesterday? You actually said, obviously you met him, but have you ever, like, talk to him? We had never had a real, a sit-down conversation until yesterday. We are concerns that he's performative assuaged at all in the private conversation. Listen, he asked me to come and talk to him. I had a conversation with him, Christian brother, the Christian brother. Look, I'm a pastor, and so I'm going to try to maintain. the integrity of that. We exchange phone numbers. But I'm really clear-eyed about his policies.

Cutting a trillion dollars out of Medicaid is the antithesis of the Christian faith. I stand by that. I said it to the New York Times and I said it to him directly. I want to ask you about the other side of the coin of this question, you know, between finding balance and advocating between personal piety and systemic injustice and systemic change and caring about people at a broad level. I think that probably some on the right would say that maybe not you in particular, but that liberal Christians don't care enough about the personal piety side of things. Like that their criticism of you would just be the inverse of what you say about them. You know, we have this conversation right now happening around Graham Platner,

is running for Senate, or maybe it'd be Bill Clinton in the 90s and say that the Democrats are happy to look askance of people who have personal peccadillos who are sinful in their personal life as long as they advance their political ideology. I'm just kind of wondering how you think about that question. And like personal piety has to matter at some level. And are there any red lines that you would see for, you know, somebody being in public life when it comes to, you know, issues in their personal life? Character matters. I was raised by two wonderful parents who instill that at me. And so I try to live my life and carry out my life at a certain kind of way that's consistent with my faith claims as a preacher on Sunday morning. But we're all flawed

human beings, all of us. At best, they're sinners saved by grace. But character does matter. And I do think, and I have to say to my Christian sisters and brothers on the right, that I do think they're on pretty shaky ground right about now because there were there were moments when there were many of us who were frustrated with them and we would say, hey, don't you care about what's happening to poor people? Don't you care about state mass incarceration in the land of the free? Don't don't you care about people having access to health care? And they would say, no, what matters is personal ethics. And much of that centered around sex and sexuality. and they would frustrate us. We'd be like, well, the gospel is talking about some things other than that. And then Donald Trump comes along. Sure. Okay, Senator, I hear you.

They're hypocrites. We agree. You're on the chief podcast of Trump's deranged. Bosting about raping women. I mean, this is serious stuff and molesting women. Yeah, no. In his own voice. He's horrible.

And multiple divorces and now literally. burning and looting and stealing from our country on camera. And I just have to wonder the things that they said they cared about. Do they care about those either? Because I'm not so sure right about now. I can answer that. They don't. But we still have to have standards, right?

And I just, I kind of wonder just kind of how you think about that. And obviously this is coming right up right now in the case of Platner, who's obviously who the accusations against it were nothing, even remotely in the same universe, is trying. But still, I just wonder how you think about the question of holding yourself to your own standards and integrity when it comes to these sorts of questions. No, let me be very clear. Character matters. And again, they're no perfect human beings, but integrity matters, character matters. And I think that Mr. Platner, whom I have not met, and I do not know, has some very serious accusations. I take these women seriously,

and I think that the people of Maine, the voters of Maine, deserve an answer from him about these things. Full stop. That's that, and it's balance. You know, it's like you have to answer that, but also the systemic stuff matters, you know? And that's where a planner's been really good, right?

That's why he's resonating with people, because he's talking about all that, you know, in a way that people care about. I interviewed Tala Rico about a month or two, ago now. He cited you kind of as a mentor and a model as somebody who's a Christian, you know, leader in the Democratic Party. I'm wondering if you've been watching his campaign, if you have any thoughts, you had a chance to talk to him about, you know, whether he can kind of follow in your footsteps and into the Senate. Yes, we've talked a couple of times. He reached out to me when he

started his campaign and came to D.C. and sat down, met with me. He's doing great. And it's good to see someone else out there in a very clear way, living out his faith, speaking about it in relationship to issues of public policy, is deeply refreshing. I think he, like me, seeks to live that out in a way that is hospitable to other faith traditions. Like, there's no contradiction between me honoring that other people have other ways to the center. Part of what it means to be a Christian, it seems to me, is for me to stand up for folks who

who are coming from a different point of view and creating space for them and their humanity. We're going to do a dorm room podcast question. Is that all right? Can we pretend like we're in the freshman dorm for a second? It's a little bit dorm room adjacent. Sounds like fun. All right. Do you ever have doubts about your faith? Oh, absolutely. Do you have any doubts about whether it's all real, you know? and how do you think about that? No, I think people who say they don't have any doubts have not thought seriously enough about it.

They haven't gone deep enough. I don't think the doubt, and I'm saying this as I engage with the scripture, doubt is not the opposite of faith. Doubt is an element in faith. And if you're looking at the contradictions in our world, the fact that we're here again dealing with Donald Trump again. I got some questions for God. I got some questions for us too. I'm saying. I mean, we got a whole lot to do with that. But I got some questions for God. Like, how are we here again? You know, why, why do people, you know, who are the salt of their suffer? And folks who don't care about their neighbor and who do not fear God seem to be doing

just fine. All of the great. heroes of the faith, the spiritual geniuses, the people we lift up in scripture, raised those questions. People talk about Job being the, you know, a paragon of patience. When people talk to me about the patience of Job, here's what I know. They've never read the book. He is the supreme protester who said, you know, you are a God who hides yourself. Show yourself so that we might argue it out. So yeah, not only do I have doubt. from time to time. Sometimes I argue with God, and I think that's what it means to have an authentic relationship. My daughter is eight, and this weekend she asked me whether God was real, and I've got

more doubts than you, and I found, and we're going back and forth, and I was talking to her about it, and she gives like an eight-year-old's version of Pascal's wager to me, kind of, which is just like, well, if you believe in God, you're going to get the good stuff, and if you don't believe in God, then you won't. So I found myself doing Pascal's Wager with my eight-year-old. And I don't know. Like, how, are you even kids? You have a nine-year-old and a seven-year-old? Like, how do you talk to them about that? How do you talk to them about that? I mean, I talk to them, but I, first of all, I just try to model the life that I want them to live. and I try to model kindness and love, and I teach them to respect their neighbor. And they learn about the faith.

They're sitting there listening to their dad preached. They're not impressed. It's in those quiet moments when I'm sitting with my daughter and my son, as my parents did with me right before bedtime when I read the stories of our faith to them. And we pray together. And you hope that in the midst of that they get. it. They catch it. I think they're more likely to catch it

than me giving it to them. And so I try to live my life in a way that they catch what gives their dad hope, even in a dark moment like this. All right. Here's my rapid fire closures. Are you ready? John Osoff,

your colleague, I asked him to tell me his favorite curse word and what his workout routine was for his guns. He would not tell me either. Now, you're a pastor. I don't know if you're allowed to have a favorite curse word, but I'm giving you a chance to answer either of those questions. Favorite curse word or workout routine. Tim Miller, you are really asking the preacher.

I am. His favorite curse word. We're all sinners, baby. You said it, you said it, Pastor. We're all sinners. We are, but I don't have a favorite curse word. And, and, uh, well, you're working out. Notice I didn't say that one doesn't ever slip out.

I said, I don't have a favorite one. Okay. So I'm a center saved by Grace trying to get it right. How about that workout routine, though? You're working out. Yeah, off and on, again, struggling, trying to get there. The P Street Road Race is coming up. I've been doing that every year. And it's a 10K. And so, you know, I enjoy doing that. And I work out of the gym. I try to stay healthy. I like to ride my bike. That's my favorite thing. All right. We take people out with a song. I read a sermon.

years from February where you're riffing on samples. Speaking about a song that has some words that you're not allowed to say, as a pastor, you're talking about TI. And I don't know, I was hoping maybe given that this is, you know, obviously based on that sermon, you're somebody that is up to speed on music, likes music, cares, let them know. What do you want to take us out with? Is that, should I take people out with? I always take people out with a song that is relevant to the episode.

Is that the one? Should we take them out with that? Or you got another recommendation? I like that one, but you have to bleep the whole thing. Okay. I bet you got a better one then? You got one that the kids can listen to in the car? I don't know.

I mean, I'm over school. You know, I love Earth, Wind, and Fire. Anything from Earth, Wind and Fire will do. We'll send you out with my favorite Earth Wind and Fire. So there's some Denver people in Earth Wind and Fire. Raphael Warnock, thank you for the time. Senator Warnock. I always appreciate you.

Keep on fighting. We'll talk to you soon. All right, brother. Keep the faith. All right. I just wanted more and more without Raphael Warnock. I could have done another hour. And unfortunately, he had some senatoring to do.

So we appreciate him for all the time this morning. We've got a couple of our faves to close out the week on Thursday and Friday. So get excited for that. We'll see you all then. Also, see you later to Nancy Mace one more time. Bye-bye, girl. The Borg podcast is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper, Associate producer, Ansi-Skipper,

and with video editing by Katie Lute, and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.