The Bulwark Podcast - Rep. Dean Phillips: The Pitch

Episode Date: February 14, 2024

The congressman states his case for why he's challenging Biden, and Tim Miller grills him.

If it's a flat or a squeal, a wobble or peel, your tread's worn down or you need a new wheel, wherever you go, you can get it from our Tread Experts. Ensure each winter trip is a safe one for your family. Enjoy them for years with the Michelin X-Ice Snow Tire. Get a $50 prepaid MasterCard with select Michelin tires. Find a Michelin Tread Experts dealer near you at treadexperts.ca slash locations. From tires to auto repair, we're always there. TreadExperts.ca. Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We've got a good one for

you today. Congressman Dean Phillips, who is running a primary campaign against Joe Biden, is not going so well. He agreed to come to the Bulwark Podcast despite some of my, I think, pretty aggressive critiques of him in the past. So we give him credit for that. This conversation gets a little spicy. It gets a little spicy. We hear him out at the beginning and then, well, why don't you stick around for the end of the podcast? I think you'll enjoy it. Before we get to it, I just want to give you guys an update on two things. Number one, on Wednesdays going forward for the Next Level fans, Next Level is still happening. So you can go over there on your podcast app, search The Next Level. It's me, Sarah, and JVL, and you'll get all my political hot takes.

I don't have to be in the host chair. I can let it rip. So on Wednesdays, you get a double dose of Tim if you are interested in that. And secondly, on the news front, we talked about this very briefly with Congressman Phillips, but New York 3, there was a special election last night. She said Tom Suozzi went into the race with his own brand. He's been a mayor, county exec, and congressman that blunted the Republican attacks against him as an aspiring squad member. He did well with Dems, held his own with Indies, and attracted a meaningful number of GOP votes. This is all very useful for Joe Biden. Liz goes on, that matters in a place like Long Island, which was hit hard by the red wave post-2020. In 2022, when George Santos won the race, crime was a top issue for

voters. Dems ignored it and tried to change the subject to abortion. It came across as out of touch. The same dynamic could have unfolded here. Liz says, Swazi could have ignored immigration, dismissed voters' concerns about the migrants coming to New York City, tried to change the subject, but he didn't. He actually leaned in on it. His first presser of 2024 was on immigration and support for a bipartisan security deal. She goes on, you can see her at Liz underscore Smith on Twitter, X, shitter, whatever we're calling it these days. But I think that that is an important lesson, important takeaway from somebody that was on the ground in that race. And it's something that we're going to continue to chew over on this podcast going forward and that we get into a little bit in this conversation. So here's my conversation with Dean

Phillips. Congressman Dean Phillips, welcome to the pod. Good to be with you, Tim. Thank you for doing this. I have had some spicy takes about your campaign strategy over the last few months and your posture towards Biden, so I really genuinely appreciate you coming on here to hash those disagreements out. But before we do that, I thought we'd start with just a little bit of news and learn a little bit more about you first, if that works. Perfect.

Unless you want to argue right away. No, I like to ease on into arguments. Okay. That's the Minnesota way. Minnesota way. A little get to know you first. You know, let's not dive in too quickly. All right.

That sounds good. A little foreplay. All right, here we go. The House impeached Alejandro Mayorkas last night by one vote after they failed to impeach him last week, embarrassingly, after they killed a bipartisan bill that Republicans had demanded that would have included border security, along with a foreign aid. What does kind of that series of events with your old colleagues in the House GOP tell you

about the state of the party over there? Well, first of all, Tim, it's a failure of both parties because my party has failed to recognize something that has been a human crisis, a national security crisis, and now even a constitutional crisis for some time. And of course, on the other side of the aisle, the GOP, there is no incentive to solve problems. I hope we can talk about that a little bit. In the absence of an incentive to actually solve a problem, you're not going to see Congress change. And I think that is one of the great challenges of this day and age. That's what happened. There was a bipartisan bill, could have been, should have been at least a step in the right direction. And you saw what happened. And impeaching Mayorkas does absolutely nothing. I think it's a travesty.

I think it's absurd. Ultimately, the buck stops with the president. And that's true whether he or she's a Democrat or Republican. This is something that should be a priority. And I'm utterly disappointed. Frankly, in my colleagues on both sides of the aisle, it's a lack of leadership. And that's where we find ourselves in this predicament. What is the Democratic failure on this in your estimation? Tim, when I was sworn in in 2019, I took my first trip to the southern border. I was shot. I went back again the following year. You know, this has been an issue, by the way, for decades. It precedes Trump and Biden. It is a massive failure. Over the coming

months, probably more like years, we're going to see waves of migration around the world because of famine, because of war. I think climate is going to change in parts of the world where it's going to force people to leave. And we're just completely ill-prepared. To see human beings in cages was appalling. To see our POEs, our points of entry, so poorly designed, so archaic based on the volume. And then our ridiculous asylum policy that is essentially the magnet that is bringing the waves of migrants right now in a very disorganized and a manner that I think is not becoming of our country and certainly of those who seek to become Americans. So that's the problem. And I think President Biden should have taken this more seriously, more quickly. And I think it is a failure of leadership over many, many years,

not just his. Yeah. And I think that's a good point going back many, many years. And I think going all the way back to the days when I was a Republican, when I was one of the compassionate conservatives, if you remember those. Way back when. Yeah. I mean, Obama and Boehner tried to come to a deal on this, right? And at that time, the Democrats' demands, in my view, were pretty reasonable because I supported them then as a Republican, right? That we have to have some kind of, you know, pathway to citizenship. We have to deal with the dreamers. And, you know, the Democrats are always the ones that said, we'll meet you halfway on border security and some of these other reforms, as long as you have the pathway to citizenship part of it.

And Republicans never would do it, right? The far right of the Republican caucus never would do it. Then Trump gets in there and he builds, what, one-tenth of his wall? That was his main campaign promise. And now we get in, and I think that what, one-tenth of his wall? That was his main campaign promise. And now we get in. And I think that there's something to be said for Biden's, you know, maybe delay in dealing with this for sure over the first couple of years of the administration. But now, once again, it's the Democrats that are saying, we're going to come to the table and the Republicans aren't going to do it.

So, you know, at some point, isn't it incumbent? Don't the Democrats need a negotiating partner here? Well, I would argue still the executive branch has authority that has been unexecuted is the truth. Tim, it is a national security issue, period. We spend almost $1 trillion a year on national defense, ostensibly national defense. And I believe deeply in asylum. I believe deeply in refugee compassion. I believe deeply in a nation of immigrants. But any reasonable person, any common sense perspective would argue that when you are allowing thousands of people to come across per day without vetting, not all of them encountered,

it's a problem. I do believe the executive branch has missed opportunities to act more quickly. That's what Trump tried to do. I didn't think the policy was a sound one, but at least he did recognize it. And yeah, you need a negotiating partner, but we don't have incentives. This whole conversation could center on what are the incentives in Washington, D.C. to get something done? What are the disincentives? The same is true with our two leading candidates at the top of the ticket on both sides. What are the incentives in politics these days?

They are perverse. They're grotesque. They're working against most Americans. And here we're finding it once again. And the rest of the world is looking at us wondering if democracy, at least as practiced in the United States of America and most of the free world, if it is suitable for this day and age. And I want to demonstrate that it is.

But absent leadership on both sides that prioritize problem solving, Tim, we're going to be in the same circumstance. And now we've got the budget issue coming back. We've been pushing this can down the road now for months and months and months. And here we're coming up on March again without any resolution and facing another shutdown. And it's appalling and disappointing. And frankly, again, it's a failure of leadership. Even if you love someone, they're not getting the job done. It's a failure of leadership. One more congressional item, then we'll kind of get to presidential. These issues didn't need to be related. Republicans made them be related with the foreign aid issue with the immigration. This would have been like you guys during the Trump

years saying that we need Medicare for all in order to do some Donald Trump priority. There are separate issues, but they've now been disaggregated. The Senate passed aid for Ukraine, Taiwan, and Israel. Now it's going to the House. I just want to play it really quick. Here's what President Biden called on the Republicans to do last night. I want to get your reaction. And I say to get your reaction. or Trump. Republicans and Democrats in the Senate came together to send a message of unity to the

world. It's time for the House Republicans to do the same thing, to pass this bill immediately, to stand for decency, stand for democracy, to stand up to a so-called leader hell-bent on weakening American security. And I mean it sincerely, history is watching. History is watching. Congressman? I think what's really going on here, Tim, is people increasingly appalled by the fact that we are now a nation with $34 trillion in federal debt. Our debt service now probably going to approach $1 trillion a year. And here we are about to share, and I think it is important we do so, by the way, $95 billion in foreign aid to Taiwan, Israel, Ukraine, and also for humanitarian assistance. That turns out to be about $270 per every single American man, woman,

child in this country. And when you've got people sleeping in our streets, when you have people, kids going to school hungry, when you have people burdened with extraordinary amounts of educational debt, medical debt, can't find housing, inflation of fuel and food, I can understand why people, especially representatives of people, are concerned about how much we are exporting relative to our dollars and our support and how little, frankly, we are supporting Americans. I don't think that's incongruent with anyone's basic principles. With all that said, can we and should we be doing both? Yeah, we should. And I think that this aid bill, while hard to pallet, is something terribly important. I think what the president said is true.

Now, do I think we could have prevented some of the reasons for this aid? Yes, I do. And that's another, frankly, failure of leadership. Which aid do you think we could have prevented some of the reasons for this aid? Yes, I do. And that's another, frankly, failure of leadership. Which aid do you think we could have prevented? I think the war in Ukraine absolutely could have been prevented. And I do think the United States could have played a more significant role going all the way back to 2014, Tim, when Putin took Crimea with impunity. And same with the Middle East. You know, we've had-

On the neocon side, we should have been tougher. Obama should have been tougher on Putin during his first incursion. That's what you're saying. Tough can be exhibited kinetically. It can be done diplomatically. It can also be done with allies in foreign aid. And frankly, the fact that diplomacy failed is to me the most grotesque part of this whole story. And the same is true in the Middle East, you know, for 75 years. By the way, Joe Biden has been in Washington for 50 years, two-thirds of the life of the state of Israel. Through that entire half century, it is the same cycle of despair, same cycle of bloodshed.

Do I think that the United States can and must do better relative to peace and preventing war? Yeah, I do. But neither here nor there. Here we are. And yes, we should support Ukraine. We should support Israel. We should support Taiwan. And we should support humanitarian aid. Decoupling that from the border security bill in this day and age, the only thing that can get through is things that have sweeteners for everybody, which is a shame. I think we should

have single issue bills that are clean and crisp and understandable. Americans can opine as well. We're not in that circumstance. And the fact of the matter is, yes, it's all politics. And I would argue that Donald Trump, in some ways, has more influence right now in the United States Congress than the sitting president of the United States. That's pretty apparent based on the actions of too many who have become just sycophants for someone who I think is awfully dangerous. I think the president is correct. We have to do it. I think you might be a little bit overstating the power of the United States presidency to stop bad things from happening everywhere. And we had a genocidal maniac president in Russia. But I think that transitions us a little bit into where I wanted

to go next, which was that's the job you want. And so setting aside your critiques of Trump and Biden and their age, which are well taken, I'd love to hear just a clean pitch for Dean Phillips. Why you? Why do you want to be president? What would be the top things you'd want to take on? Now, thanks, Tim. Let me go backwards and I'll bring it to today. That starts with my life story. I lost my father in Vietnam. He was a soldier, U.S. Army soldier, a captain. Earned an ROTC scholarship to go to college because he could not afford it.S. Army soldier, a captain. Earned an ROTC scholarship to go to college because he could not afford it. Grew up very poor in Minnesota. My grandma, I was a single

mother, raised two boys, my uncle and my dad. And he was killed in action in July of 69, just a few days after the moon landing. I was six months old. My mom was 24, widowed. We had nowhere to go. And we lived with my great grandparents for three years. And then I got lucky. My mom remarried a wonderful man. He adopted me, brought me into an extraordinary family with many blessings. My grandma became Dear Abby, the advice columnist. So a lot of advice in my family and a lot of success. And I got lucky. And I share that because I don't think it should take a stroke of just good luck or being born in the right zip code. That determines where you go in America. And for too many young people in this country, that's exactly the determinant, either luck or being born to the right parents in the right place.

And that's been a big part of my life. I was successful in business, our family business, and then Talenti Gelato, the ice cream brand that my partners and I built. And I'm watching the 2016 election, Tim, with my family. And like you, I was really shocked and dismayed that our country had taken such a turn away from decency, away from respect, away from character. And my other recognition that night was that we have a country that's really angry. And I think we had mistook quiet for peace for a long time. But I woke up the next

morning and the first thing I heard was my daughter crying in her bedroom. She was 16. She had just overcome Hodgkin's lymphoma. She's a gay woman. I didn't know that when she was 16. And I looked in her eyes and I saw fear, Tim, that I just had never seen before in my children's eyes. And it jarred me. And I sat at the breakfast table and I promised my two daughters I would do something. And I decided to run for Congress. And that was because of Donald Trump. And I decided to run for Congress. And that was because of Donald Trump. And I flipped a district that had not elected a Democrat since 1958, beat a four-term Republican incumbent who had won by 14 points, beat him by 12. It was a 26-point swing in just two years. So that's what inspired me to get off the couch, if you will,

and participate in democracy because I had taken it for granted. Of course, I get to Washington. I discover an unmitigated but totally solvable mess with the right leadership. The organizational design, social design of Congress is the atmosphere in Congress, I should say. It's just woefully broken, but it's all a human institution that can be fixed. I joined the Modernization Committee. Now I'm the ranking member of the Middle East Subcommittee on Foreign Affairs. I was elected to House Democratic Leadership. And I was in the House chamber on January 6th and trapped with my colleagues for 20 minutes. We thought that was the last 20 minutes of our lives. I was with Liz Cheney

later that day in the safe room after we left, I got out, and saw her exhibit principle that I'd never seen in Congress before, Tim, pointing at the screen when Trump finally came on hours later, pointed at the screen, said, it's because of him and we're going to hold him accountable. And you know what happened to her and the other 10 that had the audacity to protect the constitution, nine of the 10 never came back to Congress. And she was the third highest ranking member of the house GOP conference leadership, the most conservative member of the House GOP conference leadership, the most conservative member of the conference, according to the Heritage Foundation.

And she had courage and conviction, and she knew it would cost her job. I did an ad for her in her primary election that she lost because I saw integrity. And then when I saw the same thing happening on my side of the aisle, Tim, which is in the last year and a half, we have been seeing the president's decline. We've seen the erosion of his support. We're seeing the polls, we're seeing the approval numbers, and we are seeing the fact that now, once again, the very man that inspired me in 2016 to do something is coming right back to the White House. So Tim, for a year, I called on the president before he declared his candidacy, beginning July of 22. We're going to get here. I know what you think about Biden. I want to get there. I just want

to follow up one more time. We're going to get there on Biden. I'm with you. No, but you're asking why me. So the why me is this. I tried for a year to ask to get him to pass the torch because it was important he did so. He didn't because I knew if he wouldn't pass the torch, there would be no competition and there would not be an alternative to Trump who's likely to win. He didn't do it. I called Whitmer. I called Pritzker. I made a public call for Harris, Newsom, any of the well-known Democrats, the rising generation to participate. They wouldn't. And recognizing that this is a time for courage, I decided if no one else is going to do this, that I would. And in two weeks, I put together a presidential campaign. It was not my aspiration. It was not my intention. But just like my father gave his life to the country, just like I got off the couch in 2016 to do something, I wasn't going to sit by idly and watch a train wreck. So that's the why. I hear you. But that's a process why, though. I'm interested in your ideology. Where are you? Are you a Joe Biden? Are you an old Bill Clinton? Are you my man, Jared Polis in Colorado, a libertarian?

Tell me your ideology. Hey, so here's my take. I'm a Humphrey Democrat and I'm a business person. I believe you can be pro-business and pro-worker at the same time. I believe in working with people. There's not a company in this entire country, Tim, that can succeed if you demean 50% of your customers. That's what every single president seems to want to do. That's what both parties do. I was the vice chair of the problem solvers in the House. I love bipartisanship. I love working with anybody who's willing to sit down and actually solve problems.

That's what the presidency needs. And I'll have a bipartisan cabinet. It hasn't been done in a long, long time. I want a team of rivals. I want a youth cabinet. I want zero-based budgeting. I want the Pentagon to pass an audit for the first time. I want an international consulting firm to assess every agency and program to make recommendations,

how we can save money, provide better service than we do right now, and how we actually start injecting artificial intelligence to deliver better outcomes in healthcare and government service provision and to save money, not to mention putting some parameters so we can protect ourselves for nefarious use as well. My big proposition, Tim, policy-wise is something called American Dream Accounts that would complement Social Security. Most successful anti-poverty program in world history, Social Security. It's only when you retire. I want to complement that with something in the beginning of life. My proposition is dream accounts, $5,000 vested into an account by the U.S. federal government for every baby born in America.

The money would be invested in U.S. equities markets over 18 years. Kids would get an app on their phone. They would learn entrepreneurship, financial management, investing in public school curricula. And then as an incentive, incentive to graduate high school, that money would become yours. And at the compounded interest rates of growth in our stock market over the last 30 years, that'd be about 20 to $25,000 for every young person in America to start their careers, down payment on a house, start a small business, have some cash to begin your life. I love that idea. And by the way, it costs $18 billion a year compared to 95 billion for Ukraine and Israel.

We don't need to downgrade the Ukraine aid. And the Ukraine aid is not cash. Okay, it's not cash. No, I know. It's not exactly an apples to apples situation here. Well, let me give you another. California spends about $16 billion a year just on incarceration. We spend $80,000 to $100,000 a year per prisoner in the United States of America.

My proposition, take $5,000. We're going to save thousands of lives and livelihoods. We're going to save probably trillions of dollars in social services by simply investing upstream. So if you want to know who I am, I want to invest upstream. That means border security. That means education, healthcare, housing, and American Dream accounts. If we invest upstream, we're going to save so much downstream, Tim. That's speaking my language. Okay, though, here's the thing. In several of these answers, you talk about how we need to bring back bipartisanship. We have an absence of leadership. And like, isn't that what Joe Biden has done? I guess this is what I don't understand. Like over the past four years, we've had a bipartisan chips act. We've had the first

bipartisan gun bill in a generation. We had an infrastructure bill that Trump promised and didn't do. We codified gay marriage with myself and your daughter appreciate. You know, people keep telling us that there are these polarized times. Everybody, including me, by the way, said when Biden came in, he was a little naive about whether these Republicans could be worked with. His theory of the case proved right. And so when you keep saying, oh, we need to do more bipartisanship, more bipartisanship, like Joe Biden's been doing that. His promise, Tim, and look, I have great respect and admiration for the president. This is not some campaign of antagonism and animosity. It's the opposite. I want to beat Donald Trump.

I want to just make it really clear. I've not seen a single data point, not a single data point that would indicate that Joe Biden is going to beat Donald Trump. The fact that Donald Trump hasn't won a single election since 2016 isn't a good data point for you? Not against Joe Biden. No, it's not. And Tim, you know, Joe Biden won by 47,000 votes in 2020 in a few states. You look at where he is now compared to 2020, he is underwater in every one of the battleground states. His approval numbers are the lowest in measured history. Measured history. This is before the special counsel's report, by the way. Nobody's won reelection in the 30s like he's at.

He's five points below Trump in approvals, nine points below Obama, 19 points below Jimmy Carter. He made a promise to repair the soul of the nation. No, it hasn't been repaired. There's been no intention to do so. Relationships with Congress. Yeah, Joe Biden had those 20 some years ago and could have leveraged them very beautifully now, but that's not the circumstance. That's why I think it's time for a new generation. That's why- What more did you want him to do over the last four years? Again, given the context of the Trump

MAGA Republican Party, given that context, did he not exceed all expectations when it comes to bipartisanship, when it comes to actually getting things done? Shouldn't there be credit given for that? I give the president credit for navigating us out of COVID and through the post-Trump years. Yes, a lot. Do I think he can serve till January of 2029 in a capacity necessary to lead the free world? No, I don't. Do I think that he has done an admirable job of trying to heal this country? No, I don't. Do I think that he has done an admirable job of trying to heal this country? No, I don't. And if you want examples of how we do that, I can give you those too. Do I think he has done a good job of building relationships with rank and file members of both the House and

Senate? No, I don't. That's the truth. Do I think a new generation of leaders from Congress or from governorships around the country could be better positioned to do that? Yes, I do. And that's why most of the country is opining the same. Now, those in the Washington bubble see this very differently. But all the numbers say that people want to turn the page from both of these men, Tim. Not the people in South Carolina and New Hampshire. I mean, there have been votes. Here's my problem with this. As you know, I was open to the idea that there should be a primary against Joe Biden. The first two podcasts this week, this is my third podcast, welcome, Since I've taken over the first two, we've discussed the age issue at length. I don't think it's a non-issue. What I'm talking about is what you're offering is an alternative.

There's no data point that shows you doing better than Joe Biden. There's no data point that shows Kamala Harris doing better than Joe Biden against Donald Trump. In the actual votes we've had to date, you've gotten slaughtered by Joe Biden. So if you're going to come on here and say, okay, I agree with most of what Joe Biden did. I need to replace him because he's too old and his polling numbers aren't good. Well, then haven't you boxed yourself into a corner? Why you then? Because there's no evidence that you would pull better. Is there? Yeah, that's a totally reasonable question. At first, the why, because Joe Biden is likely to lose. That's the why.

Someone had to do it. Someone had to demonstrate that in America, democracy requires competition, and someone had to knock the door down a little bit. I'm still trying to invite others in. That's most important. You're right. The data points don't show Kamala Harris doing well, Gavin Newsom, Gretchen Whitmer. That's probably why the president felt he should do it, because all of the better-known candidates fail against Donald Trump, including Joe Biden. But what they don't test him is someone who is not despised by two thirds of the country or half the country already. 5% of the country knows who I am. MSNBC has afforded a single interview in four months. The DNC, as you well know, is very good at deep platforming and they're circling the horses around the president. So my contention is to try to inspire people to wake up, end the delusion, inspire others. And by the way, Tim, my whole strategy is really simple. At 5% name recognition, of course, I'm going to

get slaughtered in primaries, especially only when base voters show up to vote, which is another problem, a crisis of participation. I agree with that. But come June, July, I do think more of the country will know me. I think head-to-head polls will show that I would be better positioned to beat Donald Trump. It could be somebody else, Tim. We're not going to know that if we don't have a competition, but whomever is best positioned to beat Donald Trump, whomever is someone I think we should all support. If it is the president at the end of the day, I'll support him. But if it's me, if it's somebody else, I think we should support them. That's the whole contention. But if you don't allow democracy to be practiced, if you suppress voters, you suppress candidates, you suppress debate,

which frankly, the Democratic Party is doing right now, I don't think that's helpful. And circling the wagons around an 81-year-old man who is increasingly perceived as unable to lead the country, Tim, I think is a massive dereliction of duty. And all the party needed to do is have a thoughtful primary competition that if we were pragmatic, we would have done. Can I offer a counter theory? I just don't think that what you're offering is resonating. I think that if there was an opening among Democrats to oppose Joe Biden, then you would be walking through that door. So here's one example that I have. Back in 2012, when I was in that Republican campaign, Mick Romney was the

establishment candidate. Newt Gingrich was an insurgent candidate. Newt Gingrich gained momentum. He didn't end up winning, but he gained momentum by demonstrating that he would be tougher on Obama, that he would be able to carry a message against Obama better. That resonated with Republican voters. They wanted somebody that was going to be strong against Obama. I'm happy Mitt won out anyway. But you could do that. If you want attention for yourself, you could get attention. I've watched your Fox interviews. You've gone on Fox several times, and you're not doing what Mayor Pete does when he goes on Fox. You're agreeing with their anti-Biden propaganda most of the time when you're on that network. You're not doing anything to show that you would be a tougher opponent to Donald Trump than Joe Biden. If anything, you're showing that you'd be a weaker opponent than Biden. So why not take those

opportunities to try to get attention and get momentum? Well, first of all, you know, I think we have a perverse incentive system where you can become well-known and attract a lot of attention, especially among base voters. If you act like a jerk or you act aggressive or you're bombastic. And that's why we see a whole culture now of doing just that. By the way, I defend the president regularly. I don't think he's cognitively declining. I'm recognizing that he's going to lose because Americans do not approve. And that's the whole issue here, Tim. You're right. Base Democratic voters have not at all responded to me. Not at all. But this is not about base Democratic voters. It's about the future of the country. It's about independent voters who have completely abandoned the president. And you know how that goes. And this is about

trying to inspire a country to wake up to the reality that an election is all of America. And yeah, when I go to a MAGA rally to say hi to people waiting in line in the cold for Donald Trump, and they treat me with respect and decency, I like to tell that story. Because at the end of the day, if you don't appeal to independence... Can I tell you why that story bugs me that you keep telling? Can I tell you why? Yeah, sure. Your critique there is that Biden and the liberal elites are condescending towards these people, and that you actually met them and saw that they were nice people. Yeah. I totally reject that. There's an entire cottage industry of New York Times reporters going out to hear what these folks have to say. Joe Biden goes and campaigns and a lot of the things you

voted for in the CHIPS Act. These factories are being built in red areas. When I was doing the circus, I go out and talk to these folks. Obviously, they're nice to you. Like MAGA people are not like cartoon villains. They're humans. There's some concerns they have that are legitimate. And there are other concerns they have that are insane, mostly because they're being fed lies by Donald Trump and by the media. So when you tell that story, I'm like, well, yeah, of course they're nice to you, Congressman, but they're voting for somebody that is a massive threat. And if you don't challenge them on that, they're going to be nice to you. And that's my problem. It's like, you don't seem to be challenging the other side on the issues that they have

that are very serious. Yeah. Democrats should be kicking ass right now. And you know what? The reason we're not is we're perceived as not listening, that we are condescending to half this country. And yes, you're right. I use invitation, not confrontation, because you know why it works.

And politics is so populated with people who see it so incorrectly and not populated with people with organizational marketing experience and basic, basic psychology, Tim. Why is Joe Biden losing in every single major poll and his approval numbers in the thirties when the alternative is a man like Donald Trump? I mean, how about we talk about that for a minute? We can talk about the chipsack, the infrastructure bill, all the things I voted for, everything that Joe Biden did four years ago. That's great. It's wonderful. Is that what people really care about right now? They care about being heard. They care about feeling that they matter. They feel that no president in the White House other than Trump recently, frankly, has done that. That's the issue. And Tim, this is existential.

And if Democrats and independents think the way to succeed is to simply demean the people who vote for Donald Trump, good luck. And I just say that that's the problem. That's why I'm running for president. I'm not asking you to demean them. I'm asking you to demean Donald Trump, the person that's lying to you. Hold on. I want to play another clip because you just said something that's very similar to what you said in your one MSNBC interview. And I agree with you on this. MSNBC should have you on more. That's why I had you here. Donald Trump is listening to people. He gets it. The border chaos is absolutely front and center amongst Democrats who cannot believe that Democrats here in Washington are denying it and have been for years. Costs are out of control. Except they had an opportunity. They had an

opportunity. In the last number of months, hallelujah, finally, of course, of course. But all I'm saying is that Donald Trump is listening. Do you listen to Donald Trump? I guess that's my question. Do you listen to him? Because, yeah, he's not listening. His speeches are insane. His speeches are mostly complaints about the 2020 election.

And why is he winning, Tim? Then why is he winning? Let me turn it on you. I can tell you because Donald Trump and the conservative media have an echo chamber where they have convinced these people that there are legitimate grievances, that they should support somebody like Donald Trump, who is lying to them, who's a selfish jerk, who has convinced them that, you know, the elites and culture are out to get them. And then you're out there validating this BS. Validating? Yeah. Yeah. When you're saying

that I'm listening to these people and their complaints are valid and that Donald Trump is listening to them, what you are doing is echoing Donald Trump's talking points when the real truth is that Joe Biden was listening. Joe Biden's been the one that actually did infrastructure, that actually gave them COVID relief, that actually did CHIPS acts. Donald Trump isn't listening to them. Donald Trump is a selfish jerk that only cares about himself why wouldn't you say that he is a selfish tim that's why i told you my story of why i even entered congress in the first place because he's such a horrifying despicable man so why aren't you talking about that i talk about it all the time but you know the fact of the matter is i'm not i'm trying to run against donald trump

because i know how to beat him you know how beat him? By inviting the people who are so angry in this country right now, who are joining him because they feel he's listening and they don't see anybody else doing it. When he goes into the small towns around the country and does rallies, when he's perceived as all over the place and the president doesn't do it, yeah, that's a problem. He's not listening to people in the way that you need to in this day and age, Tim. But perceived, you said the word perceived. You're contributing to that perception. Oh, really?

Okay. Echoing this point that Donald Trump is listening to people when Donald Trump is not. Are you under the impression that Donald Trump cares about the people at his rallies? Tim, I've been in the situation room with the man. I've looked at his eyes. I saw a man who lacked empathy, 100% lacks empathy. I know who this guy is. So then why are you saying that he's listening to people? Why am I saying he's listening to people? Because every single

poll, Tim, says that he has attracted more people in this country to win elections and Joe Biden hasn't. So can we just talk about that for a minute? This is like an Ouroboros where you like eat your own tail, where you're like, oh, the poll says that they're listening to him so that people are listening to him. But why are you saying it? Why are you echoing Trump's talking points and building him up? I don't echo his talking points, Tim. What I'm trying to do is present a path for Democrats to win. Tom Suozzi last night, did he win by being a leftist? No. Did I win my district by being a leftist? No. Is Joe Biden being a leftist? To many in the country, he's perceived as such. That's the truth. Is that not true? I mean,

that's the perception. And he's not done a good job to actually present. What did Tom Suozzi run on that was different than Joe Biden, like a little bit harder on the border? I agree with that. Joe Biden could run a little bit more aggressive on the border. A little bit harder on the border. But on what other issues do they disagree? Well, Tim, I know you're a student of politics. You know exactly how Tom Suozzi ran and won. You know this country. You know we are generally probably a little bit of a center-right country. And if Democrats want to win, we need to do it differently. And the way we're doing it right now, the messaging, Bidenomics, encapsulating a president instead of getting him out there so the perception at least is that he's hearing you,

that he's engaging with people. He doesn't do interviews. He doesn't do press conferences. I'm trying to inspire Tim. This notion that I'm somehow parroting Donald Trump talking points, I can't imagine one other than the fact I'm trying to wake up Democrats to start playing the game better. Absolutely. There's no question because we're going to lose. You're trying to help Joe Biden. I'm trying to help you. I agree. If we had a better alternative, if we had somebody that was beating Trump by 20 points, trust me, I would jump ship. That's not what we have right now. You went on Primetime Fox, which is a Donald Trump propaganda outlet,

to talk to Jesse Waters. And here's what happened. In terms of mental capacity, Trump's light years ahead of Joe Biden. Just look at him and the polls show the same thing. But you say decency. He's a decent man. You can squabble with that. But wouldn't a decent leader maybe put the country above his legacy and his ego and do the right thing? Or is that Jill's job? No, Jesse. In fact, I was the first Democrat in July of 2022 to publicly call on the president

to pass the torch. He implied he would only serve one term, of course. I've been doing that on a mission. I invited other doing that on a mission. I invited other candidates who are better known than me to enter the race because democracy requires competition. The GOP has a number of candidates running right now, of course. And yes, I think he should be putting both his own legacy and the country, most importantly, ahead. And I think he's making the wrong decision for both. So when Jesse Wander says that Donald Trump is light years ahead of Joe Biden in mental capacity, you're on primetime Fox.

Why are you not trying to speak truth to the people that are watching primetime Fox? I mean, this man confused his own ex-wife for his rape victim. In that moment, I should have pushed back. By the way, I've been on Fox a number of times. And when they say that kind of stuff, I push back and I say, I've said it a number of times. I don't see any cognitive decline. That's not the issue. The issue is the next election. I should have there. You're absolutely right. And the fact of the matter is I wish MSNBC and outlets that are more reasonable, perhaps as you would argue, would at least invite me on. So at

least I can talk policy, introduce myself, but I'll tell you, you know how it works, Tim. Fox is inviting me. News Nation is inviting me. CNN a little bit. MSNBC is not even. This is what I'm telling you. This is your opportunity on Fox, though. Now we've moved from this from a podcast to a coaching session. I'm giving you free coaching. Go on. Tell Jesse Waters. Say, no, no. You can borrow that line. You can say Donald Trump mixed up his rape victim for his ex-wife. Is this your mental strength candidate? You know what, Tim, you're right. And the fact is, every time I'm on,

and you chose one clip, every time I'm on, I say the same thing. The country wants to move on from both of these men, Tim. That's the truth, 70%. So why does our system, two-party system, continue to elevate people who the rest of the country doesn't even want? It's because no one participates in primaries.

So I'm also trying to inspire that. by the way. And I accept that criticism that I should go on when I'm on a Fox push back a little bit more. You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. I do say the same thing about Trump. He should be also exiting this because he is not competent to serve as president. We have two men that the country has determined they do not want. And no one then goes and votes in primaries and we get the same thing time and time again. And that's where we're at. So I hear you. And you know what? And I'm unusual maybe, and I accept your criticism and I'll do better. The also though, when it's always the also, both of them also, it creates this false equivalence. Again, I'm totally fine for you to go out there and say, people are concerned about Joe Biden's

age. I'm concerned about it. 2029 is a long time away. I think that the Democrats should have a better option. But also too, Donald Trump tried a coup. Donald Trump is a rapist. He has four indictments against him. He has horrible policy ideas when it comes to mass deportation, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, you seem to be hesitant to want to do that because you kind of want to lump them together. I understand what you're saying, Tim. and I understand your perception. And look, I accept your criticism. I've had a lot of it in the same vein. My contention is that to win and to beat Donald Trump is not to go on and actually demean him because it's not working. We've been doing that. Look at how long we've been trying to do this, Tim. Barely working, barely. The Democrats have won every election since 2016,

except for the Virginia governor's race. I think the fundamental difference right here is you are of the opinion that Joe Biden can win this next election, and I'm of the opinion that he cannot. And if you talk to my colleagues, you would hear the same thing. If you talk to people who will never say it publicly to him, they're all saying the same thing privately. The special counsel report, that wasn't even out when all these numbers were looking so horrifying. If that's your opinion, you're right. There's no conversation. I'm of the opinion he cannot win, and I need to do something to disrupt this, open up the floodgates, wake people up from the delusion, because Donald Trump, whatever he's doing, however despicable he is, however repulsive he is, it is working. And Democrats, by simply demeaning him, you know what it does? It empowers

him more. He grows in the polls. He attracts more people to his rallies. My contention is, yeah, show up on Fox News and show them that Democrats are actually reasonable. We don't have horns coming out of our heads. We're not all socialists. We actually are people of common sense, decency, invitation, competency, and we understand your gripes. That's my contention. You can demean that strategy, but I'm telling you, that's what works in the business world. It's what works in politics for those who've done it. And I'm afraid Democrats are completely deluded into thinking the way to win is to talk about the infrastructure bill and to say Donald Trump is a horrible, terrible, no good man. It's not working, Tim, because if it was, at least Joe Biden may be ahead a little bit.

Yeah, look, I'm worried about Joe Biden. I'm worried about it. I'm with you. I think cannot win is a pretty ridiculous statement. There's a lot to happen, but I'm worried about it. And I think that on 60, 70% of the things that you're saying, we're totally aligned. I agree with you. I think that Democrats should go into red areas and show that they're not scary and not socialist and be nice. And I think Joe Biden does that a lot, to be honest, but I think that Democrats should go into red areas and show that they're not scary and not socialist and be nice. And I think Joe Biden does that a lot, to be honest, but I think the Democrats should do that. It's when you get into the process stuff that we part ways. Okay. I want to let you go, but I want to end with a fun parlor game, if that's okay. Can we do a parlor game to end? You know, kind of. I just say, I appreciate you and what you just said. And by the way,

counsel is always helpful and, you know, perception is reality. And at the end of the day, it would be nice to be introduced to Democrats, at least to be introduced. And that's why you're right. And I will take your counsel to heart and I will practice it. I want you to know that. Okay. I appreciate that, Congressman. I really do. Okay. And thank you for coming on. Honestly, you did not have to. I believe I did call you a gelato bleep one time on a podcast, which just came out. Sometimes I'm letting it fly. As long as we beat Donald Trump, you can call me generic Democrat. You can call me gelato bleep one time on a podcast, which just came out. Sometimes I'm letting it fly. As long as we beat Donald Trump, you can call me generic Democrat. You can call me gelato baron. You can call me an asshole. I don't care. We got to beat him.

I'm with you on that. All right. Here's our pro game. Are you ready? Yeah. It's going to take you a second to think about it. So I'm going to explain it slow. The last five presidents, kind of your adult life, basically Clinton, Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden. I'd like you to rank and grade them. So as a hypothetical, if Carrie Lake was getting this process, she might say Donald Trump, A plus, Barack Obama, D, because she voted for him. Bill Clinton, D minus, George Bush, F. Yeah, okay. So I would like for you to give me your last five presidents, rank and grade.

Okay. Number one would be Bill Clinton. I'll give the grades after. Number one, Bill Clinton. Number two, Barack Obama. Number three, Joe Biden. Number four, George Bush. And number five, and a distant five, Donald Trump. What are your grades? And my grades would be a B plus for Clinton, a B for Obama, a B for Joe Biden, a C for George Bush, and a, not just an F, like a not, did not attend for Trump. Okay, fine. This might follow up on that. Can I ask you, what did you feel like was better about the Obama presidency than the Biden first four years? I guess I knew it's the speeches, the speeches naturally, but what else? Yeah, I'll tell you exactly. And Tim, I'm glad you asked that because this is what you can't measure and that's atmosphere and inspiration.

And what he did for this country, what he did for so many of us to demonstrate that anything is possible. He brought youth, he brought energy, he brought optimism. He brought a worldview that I think opened eyes and hearts and minds. And you can't measure that, but it was an extraordinary and beautiful and I think inspirational presidency. Did he accomplish what so many of us had hoped he could? No.

Had he become president maybe a little later with some executive experience first, could he have done better? I think so. But that's why I give that a B. And frankly, Biden accomplished a whole lot more, but has not been able to inspire the country to, you know, kind of to get back to that optimistic, hopeful, beautiful America in which people are looking to the moon and achievements in the future rather than looking behind and litigating the past and living in fear. And that has not been solved, Tim. And it's going to get worse under Trump. We know that. But Joe Biden's a good man. I don't think has the tools and capacity as an executive

to lead us that way. And that's why I think Obama, he gave us a gift that was quite remarkable. That's a great way to end. I'm happy that we hashed this out and that you gave us the time. Congressman Dean Phillips, we'll keep in touch. Who knows? We'll keep talking. I love it, Tim. Hey, I admire you. And I want to have more conversation, not less. And that's my invitation to the president, too. That's what I'm asking him to do. Show up and demonstrate, and you will see the difference it makes in the electorate because they just want to be heard. And that's why I'm here. So thank you. Sounds good. Thanks, Congressman.

Thanks, Tim. The Bullwark Podcast is produced by katie cooper with audio engineering and editing by jason brown you