The Bulwark Podcast - S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People

Episode Date: March 20, 2025

Trump is a vessel for frustration over the status quo, but he is not a vehicle for a solution—since he has no idea about how to make things better for anyone besides himself. He's made clear that his personal interests come before the country's, and he's willing to trade away the superpowers that made America the globe's Dream Team. The Democrats need to seize the moment to argue for a smarter, more humane way to do efficiency. Plus, the Maryland governor shares his disgust over DOGE's disrespect of veterans and discusses his commitment to elevating boys and men. Gov. Wes Moore joins Tim Miller. show notes Richard Reeves on Moore's commitment to help boys and men New York magazine on David Shor's 2024 election data 

Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Could not be more delighted to welcome for the first time the governor of Maryland, Wes Moore. What's going on, governor? Tim, what's going on, man? How you doing? Man, we're surviving. We're living. We're out here. We talked the first time. I'll admit to you right now in the podcast, I was a little hungover. I forget why. I think I was on my book tour when I was writing a book and I was supposed to interview you. We were on the phone and I was like driving between the Atlanta stop and the Tallahassee stop and I'm hungover.

I'm like, shit, I got to talk to Wes. I got to interview Wes Moore. Anyway, that was during your 22 campaign. And during that interview, you were kind of talking to me about how the Democrats should kind of recapture this mantle of patriotism. There's a way to do to sell patriotism, progressive patriotism. That's kind of what I framed the article on. And so now we're three years later, Trump's back in there.

Kamala tried to do a little bit of this. It was a pretty patriotic campaign. I'm just wondering what you think about that. Is that still a fruitful path? Is that still something you're trying to do? Like where are you at on that? Yeah, I mean, it's definitely something that I'm doing, but we're doing it because it's authentic.

Yeah. You know what I mean? And that's, I think, gotta be the key thing is that people need to know that you're real about it and that you're sincere. And the reason we talk about patriotism is not because it's going to win you electoral points. It's because you believe it.

And I really do. Like I believe in this country, flaws and all. I believe in the fact that there's no way you can understand a journey like mine or a journey like my family's and not say there is something special and unique about the United States. And something that I was willing to fight for, willing to lay my life down for. I come from a whole family of people who believe in this country.

So I do believe that we have to be able to embrace this mantra of patriotism. I believe that we can't allow other people to just simply bastardize it, the way that it oftentimes happens when it comes to when you Talk about when you're looking at how a lot of maga world and Donald Trump and them talk about it But I do think it's about not just blindly accepting this country or or talking about this country Is if its history doesn't matter. I actually think patriotism means saying no, I'm not going to just sit down

I'm not going to just take it. I'm not just going to allow someone to take the country in the wrong direction. I'm going to fight and I'm going to fight for it. And I think that's actually the most patriotic thing that you can do right now. I want to pick up a couple of those points, but for people who don't know you, who are being introduced to you now, you reference your background and how this is tied into your background. So talk to us about that.

You're a veteran, you know, growing up. Give us a little TLDR on Wes Moore's life story. Yeah. Well, I mean, I was a kid who, frankly, when people talk about the breakdowns of this country and the inequality of this country, I explain to people, like, I was born into it. You know, some of my first memories was literally watching my father die in front of me because he didn't get the health care that he needed. That some of my first memories was watching my mother not get her first job that gave her benefits until I was 14 years old.

First job that gave her reliable hours. And this was an immigrant single mom who came to this country and eventually went on to get a master's degree and still did not get her first job that gave her benefits until her son was 14 years old. I had handcuffs on my wrist by the time I was 11 years old. I joined the army when I was 17. I wasn't even old enough to sign the paperwork. My mother had to sign the paperwork for me. I went to a two-year college.

So there was nothing about my life that said, oh, he's one day going to be the 63rd governor of the state of Maryland. My grandfather was the first one on my mom's side of the family born in this country. And when he was just a toddler, the Ku Klux Klan ran them out of the country. And so my life has been almost like consistently littered

with this reminder of a brokenness of an American dream and an American promise in many ways. But I also know that I stand here as the 63rd governor of the state because my life has also been littered by the blessings of this country, by the blessings of people who are willing to sacrifice on my behalf and the people who were helping me to actually see higher than myself. And so I never run for public office before my life. I spent time in the army. I was a paratrooper with the United States military. I led soldiers in combat in Afghanistan.

I came back and I started working in finance. I was working in investment banking. Then I started a business, had a successful exit in 2017. And then I ran one of the largest poverty fighting organizations in this country. And so one day, I'm like, the issues I want to work on is, I want to beat child poverty.

I don't understand why society has child poverty. I understand the role that policy has played in all this. And I was like, I can just keep on screaming about elected officials not doing things, or I can actually run for myself. So one day I was like, all right, I'm gonna run for governor. You know, Democrats are struggling to read, I'm gonna run for governor.

You know, Democrats are struggling to read. I do outreach to tech bros these days and you just used exit as a verb. I think, I think that could give you a little, you know, maybe a little help, a way to connect with the, you know, that's real. Look, all right. Here's the thing. When you were talking about how you still feel patriotic, you love this country, flaws and all, sitting here in my head, I bet some listeners are doing that. And I'm kind of like, did it crack at all in November, that belief in the country? I mean, it feels like I've been so lucky and I'm so privileged. I've had such a great life.

And so I feel almost silly kind of saying that my faith in the country is cracked when you're like telling a story about your grandfather getting kicked out of the country by the KKK. But I don't know, how do you live your life story and then see what the country decided to do in November and still have that optimism? Because I think I'm constantly reminded this country is not perfect. I don't need enough reminders of America's imperfection. You know, it's like, this has never been an even line when you think about the history of America. You know, the case of my grandfather,

where some of his earliest memories was when his father was a minister and a very vocal minister. That's what got the Ku Klux Klan then making threats to our family. Where in the middle of the night, he picks up his family and he leaves and they didn't just leave town like they left this country and they went back to Jamaica and Most of my family always said that they would never come back to this country and much of my family has never come back to this country, but my grandfather did

Because he always felt that you know, I see always say, in all of his humility, this country would be incomplete without me. Right? So he comes back to this country, he attends an HBCU in Pennsylvania, Lincoln University. He then becomes a minister like his father, right? And what was crazy to him is that the same threats that started coming to his father started coming to him, but he stuck. He never left and he devoted the rest of his life to his faith, to his

community, to his family. He devoted his life with a deep belief in this country and I tell you because he had a deep Jamaican accent his entire life and he's maybe the most patriotic American I've ever had. Can you do it? Do you gotta? Oh, yeah, I got a little what you need me to say, no? I don't know. What do you want? What do you want? Tell me about what you're having for dinner tonight? But you know, but he but he but he believed in this country. But it's not like he was ignorant to it. He believed in what it could be. And I just feel like it'd be real disrespectful to him

and to everything he had to endure for me to turn around and say, because of an election, I'm done. You know what I mean? Like this country is not built that way. If we said that every time there was a bad election in America, if we said every time there's a bad occurrence or bad incident, then then none of this would be real. This is a real bad one though.

This is a real no, honestly. And it's a real bad one because no one should be surprised. Right. That's the thing. All the stuff we're doing, we're saying right now is not like we didn't warn't warn you. And frankly, it's not like Trump ain't warned you, because he told you he was going to do what he's going to do. And he's actually executing on it right now. And so I just feel like we have to remember that what we also have to do is it's not even just about the people who went from, okay, how does a person go from Clinton to Trump or Biden to Trump or Obama like Let's talk about the fact that there were tens of millions of people who just decided not to vote because they do not think this system works for them and

The reason I know who they are is in many cases. They're actually my family members You know, I remember when I first ran for governor, I had to convince members of my family to vote for me when I was running for governor. And it's not that that we're not cool, like we're cool. It's that they had I had to convince members of my family to vote, you had to register to like care to get to register. And even the ones who are registered just to go out, because it's like,

they don't see how this system works for them. And the truth is it hasn't. And that's why I think we have to be real, real careful about somehow spending our time defending a status quo when for real, for many people, the status quo never worked for them. So how are you defending something that's indefensible? That's in many ways that has been Trump genius, is that Trump has been a vessel for the frustration. He's just not a vehicle for the solution. He's going to tell you what's wrong, but then he's not going to have an offer or an idea

as to how to make it better. Let's talk about this in practice because you're like living a good example of this because I think the Democrats are in a tough spot on this because I hear you when you say the Democrats can't be defending the status quo, right? Obviously, right? It's just, it's not what people want. You just have to listen to voters. Voters don't want politics as usual.

They don't like the status quo. They don't think the status quo is working for them. All right? But then Trump gets in there and he's like, we're just going to willy-nilly fire all these government workers. We don't care about any of these institutions. We're going to tear them all down. And now you're there in Maryland, a lot of those employees work in your state, right? Some of those institutions are headquartered in your state.

And so you got to like defend the institution, right, from these attacks from this guy, but also not be the guy that's defending the status quo How do you how do you do that's tough, right? Yeah, but I don't think you have to defend the institutions For me, this is not about saying. Oh everything about the institution is right and you all are not getting right This is about saying like listen. I believe that there are certain things within these institutions that needed adjustments. I actually agree with you. For example, I was a White House fellow for both the State Department and USAID, right?

And even when I was there, and I was, shit, like 12 years ago, something like that, maybe more, 14 years ago, even when I was there, I was kind of like, how do these two things work when you ask a single question about how much foreign aid are we giving to Botswana? Why do you need to talk to eight different people to get an answer?

I actually have questioned that for a while. So it's not saying I'm defending the status quo. What I'm saying is there's a way to do this. There's a way to do this is actually data informed. There's a way to do this that is humane. And there's a way to do this that actually makes sense. There's a way to do this that is humane. And there's a way to do this that actually makes sense. And so for example, one of the first people that I hired when I became the governor was I hired

a chief performance officer for the first time in history of the state. Their job exclusively for the past two and a half, two years that I've been the governor, their job exclusively has been find the waste within our state agencies. Find the things that were not working. Find the things that we cannot give any quantifiable evidence of efficacy, and let's go fix it or eliminate it. For example, we started doing things like saying, okay, take a look at

fleet management. Take a look at data consolidation and IT consolidation. Take a look at real estate. Why are there certain buildings that are sitting on our state balance sheet? I'm like, what does that do? Get it off our balance sheet, right? Do a focus on procurement reforms, focus on consolidation of agencies that we can actually start to make sense

so we can cut down costs, but also making sure that they're more efficient. That is a smart way of doing efficiency. And in turn, we have saved the people of this state, tens of millions of dollars in doing efficiency. And in turn, we have saved the people of this state tens of millions of dollars in doing so. What Doge is doing is just blatant, inhumane, and frankly, uninformed cuts by people who have no idea what the hell they're talking about.

There's a difference. The irony is that there are some things that Trump and them are doing that I'm like, in theory, I actually, I kind of get it and it kind of makes sense and da da da. But yo, like how we do things matters. And they are just deciding to, I mean, literally come after these people, come after these agencies in a way that is not at all informed and in a way that is deeply inhumane. There's been so much shit happening up there.

You can take this question as about Doge or about anything, but what has struck you from the first two months that has gotten you the most upset? The way we treat our veterans. I'm so pissed about this, man. I'm like, yo, these are people who, and I serve with a lot of them, right? These are people who just, every time the country is asked, they've raised their hand.

Every time the country is asked, they have said, I will take pay cuts. They said, I will leave my family. They said, I will pick up and move every two years. They have said, I will miss occasions. I will pick up and move every two years. They have said I will I will miss occasions I will miss children's birthdays Because the country asked me to Right and the thing that gets me most about this is we didn't ask for anything in return

Just simply make sure that you honor your promises to us Simply make sure that you're taking care of our families promises to us. Simply make sure that you're taking care of our families. We're not asking for anything that has not already been promised. And so when you're talking about taking out a federal bureaucracy, when you're talking about taking out federal workers, you're doing it

without an understanding or maybe with an understanding which makes it even worse, that one in three federal employees are military veterans. One in three federal employees are people who have taken off a uniform and are now showing up to make sure that our food is safe, who are now showing up every day to make sure that our seniors are getting health care, who are now making sure and showing up every day to make sure that our veterans and their families can be laid to rest in an honorable way. That's what they're doing. But then I'm now getting the doged people who are coming in and saying, yeah, thanks

for your service, but now we're going to send you on your way. And I'm telling you, what we are doing to US military veterans is disgusting. I mean, our state, I'm really proud of the way our state is being so aggressive in terms of the way we're responding. One of the things we're doing, one of the many things we're doing is we're standing up these job fairs all over the state of Maryland. I was just the one yesterday, man. And we had a chance to meet with people who are military veterans. One guy named Jonathan, who I was actually with a couple of weeks back. Jonathan was a US Army veteran who now was working

in Homeland Security, focusing on critical infrastructure protection and Jonathan was told on Valentine's Day that Jonathan no longer had a job for no reason. I was talking to a guy Steve yesterday. Steve is a Republican who now gets up every morning and puts on a suit so his kids don't know that he lost his job. And he is now showing up at a job fair in Frederick County, Maryland with his resume looking to be hired and he has yet to tell his kids that he no longer has a job because he's embarrassed.

So he gets up every morning at the same time and puts on a suit. I'm disgusted at the disrespect that they have just repeatedly shown to our US Army veterans, people and just military veterans, people who have done more to serve this country than they ever have or ever would. And these are the people that they're going after. I'm sure you're kind of on whatever chats, texts, message boards, people, veterans from your time that are not

particularly political per se. Is this bubbling out there? Is it percolating or do you think... It is. Yeah. No. And listen, I'm in a whole lot of text chains with a whole lot of vets and a lot of them are conservatives.

Yeah. And to hear how the tone has changed over the process of these past weeks, this is real. People are realizing this is not what we thought. This is not the policies that we believed in or voted for or whatever the case is. There's a sleeping giant that's now being awoken in the military veterans community. Hey guys, I don't know about you, but sometimes those late in the day coffees are starting to catch up to you in middle age when you're trying to get to bed. And if I need something a little stimulant before a, particularly before a late night MSNBC hit or a late night YouTube taping for you guys, I'm looking for something

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Just listening to you talk about veterans, we started talking about the patriotism. I was talking to James Carvel in the pilot last week, a couple of weeks ago. Time's a fucking flat circle, man. It's hard to keep track these days. I'm sure it's for you more than more than me. I'm just a podcast. You're running a state. I was talking to Carville and he says, you kind of as an aside, he's like, I just, I don't think that Donald Trump actually loves the country. I can't say that he does. Yeah. And I was listening to that. And I just, I wonder what you think about that because I know that they do a lot of flag waving, but to me, I don't see a lot of evidence that he loves the country flaws and all. I think he's somebody that loves himself.

I don't know how you can claim to love this country or drape yourself in the flag when you're so disrespectful to Americans. Loving your country does not mean loving the ones who supported you. And loving your country does not mean lying about its history or masking entire segments of its history. Loving your country does not mean defending some of the people in the country. You know, loving your country means having a firm understanding that this country's arc has been deeply uneven.

But the reason that we've been able to make progress is because we've had people who are willing to believe in the hope of all of us and not just some of us. It's difficult to look at the policies that we're seeing in place when their baseline is division, when their baseline is division, when their baseline is separation, when their baseline is going back to these old political tropes

about what can you do to separate us? Because if you separate us and divide us, you have a better chance of winning fragmented elections. And that's what I think that this goal is. This is not about bringing us together. This is actually just about power. That's not really about making us stronger either. You know, also, I just like look at how he's dealing

with Putin, right? All like the trend across all of these things to me is who sucks up to him the most, right? And that's different. That's different than loving the country, right? I don't think he's still, you think he even sees a difference now that he's been president twice between the country and his country's interest and his interest? I don't think he's still, you think he even sees a difference now that he's been president twice between the country and his, his country's interest and his interest?

I don't, I don't think he's so there's no evidence of that. No. And I think it's very clear about whose interests come first. Yeah. And think about it. You can't argue that you believe in American competitiveness when you're directly going after many of the things that make America so competitive in the first place. You're going after things like our institutions of higher education, our research grants,

the NIH. Let's be clear. One of the things that makes America so powerful is the fact that we have some of the best research institutions in this country. One of the things that makes this country so unique is the fact that you have people who are coming from all around the world, the world's best and brightest, who want to come to the United States to learn, to train, to get their degrees, to start their families, and to build. It's the reason why our immigrant communities have been some of the strongest

contributors to the United States. One of the United States superpowers is the fact that we are this beautiful melting pot of the world's best and brightest who all come here. We are the globe's dream team. That's what the United States has always supported itself on. And some of the first things you go after are the institutions of higher education.

Some of the first things you go after are our research institutions, the thing that's bringing them here. Some of the first things you go after is things like the NIH. I mean, you cannot argue that you believe in American supremacy or making this the golden age when you're actually directly going after the things that make America so unique in the first place and ceding that leadership to other countries.

Yeah, we're the World Street Team. It's kind of like everybody's Isaiah Thomas now. We're just cutting you out. Sorry, sorry, bro. No, no Isaiah's welcome anymore on you out. Sorry, sorry, bro. No, no Isaiah's welcome anymore on the Dream Team. All right, man. I want to do a little... That's right.

That's an elder millennial joke. It's a little for people that were there in 92, formative years, the early Dream Team drama. Troy, he wants to make us the 1980 limit. The 1980. And not the 90s. All right. Just the college guys, just the white guys. Bounce passes. You not the 90s. Just the college guys.

Just the white guys. Bounce passes. You know, good fundamentals. All right. I want to do a little Maryland talk and then we're going to end with politics and fun stuff. But you know, you're actually the governor. You got a day job. You got a housing act right now that's going through.

Yeah. It seems like maybe there's a little problem. I don't know. I'm not up to speed on Maryland legislative drama that closely, but I've been doing a little Googling and it seems like there's some pushback on some of this. Of course there is. Housing is just such an important issue. So anyway, talk about what you're trying to do on housing and what the politics of it

are. Of course there's going to be because this is a really hard issue Right. It's a hard issue that I'm not going to lose on Because it's one of the big reasons why we decided to run if you think about you know Think about this and this is what's wild time the greatest driver of wealth and our nation and nation history has been housing Right people were able to accumulate real estate people accumulate value That's how you're able to actually have generational wealth and generational wealth that you can pass on. The greatest driver of poverty in our society is housing insecurity.

So if you look at housing is the barbell, right? Housing either can generate significant wealth or generate significant poverty, both generational. And so if you look at one of the biggest reasons why young Marylanders are considering leaving our state, it is because of one word, housing, right? Housing costs, housing affordability, but it all comes back to housing. And so I've been very clear, we have to build more housing. We have to be able to have more inventory.

We have to be able to make sure that we're turning more renters into homeowners. We have to make sure that we're protecting our renters. We have to make sure that we're creating generational wealth. And if you look at what we did last year, we passed the most aggressive housing package of any Maryland governor in recent history. We focused on things like transit oriented development and density bonuses and making sure that we can provide more incentives for developers and knowing that there's places we should not build, but in the places where we should build and can build, we will build, right? And I told the legislature, and next year, I'm coming back for more.

And we are. And this year, we have a whole new bill that's focusing around looking at the places where we have significant job growth and saying, but the job growth will be unsustainable unless you can build more housing, build more options for people to live in and create better incentives and not only incentives,

but also greater supports for people to become homeowners. So yes, it is hard and it is difficult. The holdups are what? Like just NIMBYism, red tape, environmental review? Like what is it? All of the above? It is people who will put arbitrary barriers in the way of it happening because change is tough.

And change is hard, and I get it. I also know we need to be better. If you want to grow an economy, if you want to invite more people in, if you want to bring housing prices down, you must increase inventory. You know, it's true. You know, many are saying that Maryland is probably one of the most aggressive states in the country right now

when it comes to building more housing. I agree guilty as charged. That because a lot of people are not going to touch it because it is politically challenging. It is politically fraught. It is a third rail of American politics. I understand that. And we have to be unafraid to touch it because if we do not, It is politically fraught. It is a third rail of American politics. I understand that.

And we have to be unafraid to touch it. Because if we do not, you will never be able to get the economic growth and the economic prosperity that you're hoping for. So yeah, so I'm, I'm very aggressively pro housing and, uh, and we're going to continue to be as long as I'm the governor of the state. What's happening with the Key Bridge rebuilt? Last time I was doing Maryland talk on here, it was with one of the reporters, and I think it's the Baltimore banner right after that happened. And I guess I don't know the latest. How's that going? Yeah. Well, March 26 is the year anniversary of the Key Bridge collapse. And I'm telling you,

man, I'm never afraid to get that morning when I got a call at 202 in the morning that the Key Bridge was gone and that the Port of Baltimore, which represents about 13% of our economy was now shut down. A bridge that's about a two-mile long bridge that 40,000 people went over every day was now in the bottom of the river. And then we had six Marylanders who we lost that morning. So I remember that first morning we laid out four objectives as I stood there with a whole fountain of leadership And I said, you know, we are going to bring closure and comfort to these families

We're going to reopen the federal channel as quickly as possible and people told us it would take 11 months We got it done in 11 weeks We said we're gonna make sure that everybody who was impacted was gonna be supported the port workers their families that everybody who was impacted was going to be supported, the port workers, their families, the small businesses. And we did that. And I said, and we are going to rebuild the Francis Scott Key Bridge. And so I'm thankful that late last year

with bipartisan support, Republicans and Democrats, Congress voted for the 100% cost share for the Key Bridge rebuild. So we're already in the process of moving. We're already doing the analysis of soil sampling starting off this spring. We're going to finish the final demolition of the pillars that are still up and start the reconstruction.

But I'm really proud of the fact that Maryland put on a case study on how to respond in crisis because we responded in a unified fashion. And I think that's the only reason we were able to get this done as quick as we were able to get this done as quick as we were able to. One other thing you're working on for this year, you're talking about your state of the state and I'm aligned with you on the message, some of the details we'll talk about here for a sec. Yeah. And it is trying to deal with the issue facing young men.

And I think that there's been some critique of the Democrats and everybody really, but the Democrats in particular that there's been not a lot of focus on how young men have been falling behind and there's been focused on other demos. A couple of things you've brought up, male paternity leave, increased the male teacher share, increased male healthcare providers, nurses, educated providers about male suicide rates. So talk about that plan and what else you got in mind. You're right.

And this is another one that's very personal to me. You know, people talk about what happened with men in the election. I'm like the election, shit man, this has been going on a lot longer than that. Like the election was the tail. We've known about this problem for a long time. And we've known about it because society has failed.

You know, I think we did a really wonderful job. You look at the past 30 years, we looked at the data and the data showed that how women were just so significantly falling behind. And so there was a distinct and a very intentional move to be able to make sure that we're elevating women, getting, coming through everything from education to employment, to wealth creation, to all kinds of stuff.

And we were successful. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Pay little, let better. That's exactly right. Right? So, and we were successful. Right?

We still haven't gotten it exactly right. But to look at where the numbers were in the 60s and 70s and look at where the numbers are now, you've seen a drastic move. Well, all I'm asking is do the same thing we did then. Look at the data. Look at what the data right now is showing about when it comes to young boys and employment. Look at what the data is showing when it comes to suicide rates

that we're seeing with young men. Look at what the data is showing when it comes to college attainment levels. College attainment levels right now are at the same level as they were for men and boys back when it was in 1964 Right and so if you look at what's happening when it comes to juvenile justice Within our state right now where the juvenile justice system is so heavily dominated by boys and our young boys And so all I'm saying is y'all we have to follow the data and the data says if we do not put a distinct focus on young men and boys, we will fall

behind because you will repeatedly have young men who are falling behind. And so, yeah, I've actually issued probably the most aggressive in the country push to be able to deal with this issue. I've ordered all of my cabinet secretaries where we are coming together on this exact issue, and I'm actually having this as a lens on how I look at performance management for our cabinet secretaries about what ideas that we're working on together together to be able to direct to address it. It does go back to education levels. It does go back to things like employment and moving more men into into agencies into areas being like teachers and nurses and places where we have massive shortages

of men in those areas. It does go back to making sure that we're supporting the juveniles and our young men who are involved in the juvenile justice system and getting them back onto a right track. And so we're thinking really broad-based and holistically about it, but I have an exclusive focus. If we do not address what is happening

with our young men and boys in the state of Maryland The state of Maryland will never succeed and I really do believe the state of Maryland is gonna lead on this issue Yeah, I'm curious about your thoughts some of the on the cultural element of some of this because I'm for all that stuff that you said I think that is important the government, you know do what they can on the edges I think that we need more men teachers. I think that would make a huge difference in the lives of young men to have more men teaching in schools and to have that kind of role model. But I don't know, man. Part of this, I think, is part of the problem with men is that there is like the sense of status loss. Like as the women have started to succeed more, as women

are doing better in school, and there's this ego element to it, right? That's like, oh man, now I'm depressed because it's harder for me to date because the girls in the dating pool, they're succeeding more than I am or whatever. And I don't know that getting them a job, all respect to nurses and teachers, but I don't know that getting them a job as a nurse or a teacher for some of these men is going to solve that, like that more deeper problem of status loss, of falling behind, of not making the kind of money that their dad or granddad made. I don't know. What do you make of that? Dr. Ben Jones I hear you, and I think there's a lot of truth to that. But I think we've stopped even trying. And I think that that's noticeable too. I think that we have stopped being curious,

we've stopped caring, we've stopped asking. And we look at so many times with young boys where we do not ever even really evaluate what was happening. I mean, I'm thinking about it for me, right? Again, I was a kid who had handcuffs on my wrist at 11 years old. What'd you do? At that time, I was a kid who had handcuffs on my wrist at 11 years old. What'd you do? At that time, I was for tagging.

Oh, tagging. Okay. We shouldn't be putting handcuffs on anybody's wrists for tagging. I agree. That's just criminal justice woke Tims coming out here now. Thank you. I agree. You should not be doing that, but anyway, okay. Tagging and loitering in a drug-free zone. That was crazy. That was a crazy thing. But this is real, you know what I'm saying?

And I remember they would have all of these meetings, and I talked to my mother about this, because even at school, because I ended up getting kicked out of school in seventh grade, ended up going to a military school in eighth grade. What'd you do in seventh grade? What'd you do for that? That one was actually pretty justified. That was everything from skipping class to fights to there was an incident with a smoke bomb. It was bad. That one actually was probably pretty good. The handcuffs were not okay the kicked out of school probably

But I say that because they would have all these meetings I remember talking with my mom about it where I was like there all these people are meeting about me without me Like they're talking about me, but never once did anyone ever ask me, what is going on? Because the thing is, if they did, I might have actually told them. But there was never an interest to actually ask me, what is up with the anger? Why are you constantly getting into fights? Why are you not showing up to school?

That this was almost like you're dealing with me like I'm a problem that has to be fixed, but not like I'm an asset and not like I actually had a say in this. And I think that's what happened. That is what happened with a lot of culture when it comes to men and particularly black men, men of color, et cetera, young boys, et cetera, where we're just like, we're not being part of the conversation. We're just subjects of the conversation. And I remember, I was at a barbershop once,

and my son actually goes to the same barbershop that I went to when I used to have to get haircuts. So my son goes in and out, and I remember having to hear in this conversation that we were having. And someone said something really interesting, because they were talking about all the supports that are happening for black women. And one of the guys is a

barber who actually is the, I think he has three girls. And so he's a real girl dad and all that kind of stuff. And he's like, listen, I'm all for all the things that are happening to support my daughters. But he said, I just do not want black girl magic to turn into black boy tragic. And I thought that was such an interesting way of phrasing this out. It's almost like society stopped caring. And society now deals with this issue of young men and boys as just a problem. And I think that that is part of the thing where it's, where to your point, I don't think there's even a level of curiosity that people have until we're talking about election rolls. But if that's what motivated you to start talking about this issue, then dude, it's like you really don't get it, do you? Pete Slauson And part of that, I mean, this does get us into the election, but it is related because part of that is like what you said at the top about

trying is the first step, right? And, you know, there's, at this point, on all the panels after the election, this is like a little fact that gets brought out a lot, which is that the DNC had a list of like affinity groups that they were reaching out to. It's everything under the sun. You know, it's like AANHPI, it's queer, it's veterans, it's all, it's young, it's everything. It's youth. It's everything except boys, that men. Like literally- And they had, and girls too. They had girls. Yeah, girls are on there, right. So it's everything, like literally any group you could imagine. And so then my question is like, okay, is the answer just adding boys to that list? Or is it just fundamentally getting rid of this whole kind of way of

categorizing everybody? Yeah, I think what it is, it's just, it's being honest that everyone, all anyone's hoping for is to be seen. You know, I'm not asking to be a category. I'm not asking to be a campaign platform. I'm not asking to be a talking. I'm not asking to be a campaign platform. I'm not asking to be a talking point. Do you see me or not? Do you care about me? Do you care about my future? Are you actually interested in removing the barriers

that in many ways have been intentionally put in front of me? The reason I had handcuffed my wrist when I was 11 years old is because I came up in a community that was over policed and we knew it. A community that this was the way that young boys were dealt with, right, was criminalizing. That we came up in a framework where we knew that for a lot of the young boys who were learning differently than the young girls when they were coming up, that we were then either punished or medicated without understanding that sometimes

it just takes a little bit more time and understanding and acceptance. Came up in environments where the reason that we want to recruit more men into the classroom also partially because that a lot of the kids who are inside those classrooms are kids who are coming from single parent, oftentimes women only dominated homes. And so some of the first examples and role models that a lot of these young boys are gonna have of how a man acts, talks, walks, et cetera, could be that teacher inside that classroom.

And so these are the type of things that I think we just have to have a measure of honesty about that that Introducing and celebrating this idea of masculinity or whatever. We don't call it. It's not a bad thing But I do think we have to be honest about the problem in the first place and actually have a real sincerity About ways we're going to address it and not a and not a motivation of what can we do to increase voter rolls. Last thing on this, some of the listeners of this show, particularly if you're white, you didn't know a lot of black folks, you're liberal, you fucking hate Donald Trump, you look at Donald Trump, you're like, this is a racist bastard.

I don't know, man, this guy's out here saying, oh, you got to say to black, you know, people want to feel seen. How did Donald Trump make them feel seen? Right? And if you just look at the numbers that David Shore did analysis this week, 18, 19, 20, 21 year old black men, according to his data analysis went for Trump narrowly. Even if that's wrong, even if it was 60 40 for Kamala, like that is just a drastic change. And like these young guys then decided to, something about Trump appealed to them.

And what was it? How do you explain that? I would say it's because Trump spoke to the frustration well. Trump spoke to the anger. When Trump talked about how the system doesn't work and the system is broken, and now for Trump, everything is personalized. So he's like, the system persecuted me.

Right. So for Trump, everything is all always personal, but, but Trump does a masterful job of speaking to the frustration and speaking to the fact that, you know what, you don't think this society works, do you? Neither do I. You think these people look down on you, right? They look down on me too. You think that you can work and do all this kind of stuff and this person's going to get the job offered before you, right? You think that this person, that their child is going to get into college before your child, right? This person is going to take the spot on your daughter's sports team, right?

Yeah, so do I. So he is an amazing vessel for the frustration. There wasn't this move to Donald Trump because people believed in him. There's a move to Donald Trump because people didn't believe in the system. That's what he represented. And if we cannot be honest about this system does not work for a lot of people where they feel like they're doing everything right. We are doing our work.

We are, we are protecting our family and we still can't get ahead. Then do not ask me to vote for the party that's protecting the status quo. Or who's saying, I want a continuation of this. Because many people did not. And that's what he mastered. All right, we're going to close with some bro talk. All right?

Another group the Dems are struggling with is the bros. The Dem politicians I'm having on the pod, Do a little bro trivia with them to make sure. So just in case in the future, if you need to go on Joe Rogan or Barstor, one of these, you're prepared. All right? You're a football man. I saw you doing Maryland practice with them. You do the Oklahoma drill. What kind of drills were you doing? I did a whole full practice with them. And actually, you know, and here's what's wild. It was crazy. So they were like, can the governor come and visit? And I think they wanted me to like, say a couple like, rah, rah, you know what I mean? But I was like, no, you're like, go Terps. I was like, no, like, can I practice?

And they're like, what do you mean? It's like, can I actually practice with the team? And we got on board through the gear on, and I ran a full practice with the, with the University of Maryland football team. What position were you playing? Why? during practice I was playing wide receiver because I played wide receiver in college, so I played college football and so it actually felt very comfortable. The big difference is I was actually hanging with these dudes, like they're like, okay, like he can actually ball. Here's the problem.

The next morning I like couldn't feel my legs. Did you take any hits? Or was it a full hit? You were taking hits? I was taking hits and giving them. And I'm telling, cause I told him, I was like, you take any hits? Yes. Was it a full hit? You were taking hits? I was taking hits and giving them. I'm telling because I told them I was like, yes. You were giving hits as a wide receiver?

Yes. How is that? How is that? Just in the drills? Oh, in the drills because I was telling them, don't take it easy on me. If we're going to work, let's work. I'm very competitive and I don't like losing, especially to 19 and 20 year olds. Were you shit talking?

Oh, hell yeah. Hell yeah. I ain't going to lie, the difference is this, is they got up in the morning and they probably did another two a day. I got up in the morning and I just needed to just pound Advils

all day long just to make it through. We've had to see our Secretary of Health and Human Services shirtless because he goes to Berry's or he goes to whatever that fucking gym is in Venice, not Berry's, whatever that gym is in Venice, Gold's. Gold's, yeah. You guys have Gold's in Venice.

What's your lifting routine, you think? So I actually work out every morning at the Naval Academy. Okay. Every morning I work out with the midshipman and it's cool. In squats or what you doing? Yes. I mean, every day is something different. I mean, today we were burning out on sleds and Versa.

Yesterday we were doing backs and buys. So I mean, every day I'm out there working out with the midshipman. We were burning out on sleds and Versa. Yesterday we were doing backs and buys. Every day I'm out there working out with the midshipmen. They keep me honest, man. It's good. You think you can take RFK? I'm 100% in a bench. I ain't losing.

Max bench. I ain't losing. Absolutely. I ain't losing. I noticed that flavored vapes are prohibited in Maryland. That might be a problem for you in the Burrell Outreach. What's happened with that? What if somebody just wants to have their little creme brulee vape?

What do you got against that in a free country? Listen, I don't have an issue, and trust me, as someone who very often will take a cigar, I don't have an issue with it. I also think that we need to make sure we have ways of focusing on public safety on it, too. And so I really don't have an issue with it, particularly as adults go and do what adults need to do. It's like no one's going to tell me not to smoke cigars ever.

You know what I mean? At the same time though, I want to make sure that our kids are protected. All right. There are some kids vaping out there, so I get that. What's your crypto familiarity? Are you doing any crypto investing? You in on ETH or anything? I began to understand it. I'd say probably in 2018, 2019 or something like that.

You got to get it now that the president's running a crypto group. Yeah, but as you're watching, you completely fall off the cliff when it comes to value. So I think people just need to be careful. So no West coin? Nah, ain't no West coins. There will be no West coins. So I mean, like, I listen for anyone who wants to get in it, whatever like that, that's cool. I had something I've actually, I really got into

because intellectually I wanted to understand it and probably around 2018, whatever, I really started to like, oh, this is actually kind of interesting, da da da. It's just, it's not my thing. I like things that are tangible. Yeah, I hear that. All right, last thing, have you ever been to an SEC game?

Ever been to like a real college football game? Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Actually, I think the Big Ten is real college football.

Okay, whatever. You ever been to an SEC game? Not really. I've been to a Maryland game. That's not nothing, all right? That's not... We're coming up! You ever been to Tiger Stadium?

You ever been to Athens? No! You ever been to Tiger Stadium? You ever been to Athens? No. You've been to Knoxville? I actually have, I actually have on my bucket list. I have on my bucket list that there are a couple places that I really got to get to. Tiger Stadium. And that's definitely one of them.

Actually, Michigan's another one. That's another bucket list for me. And Ohio State, like I'd love to see Michigan, Ohio State. That's another bucket list game. But yeah, but no, but Big 10. Big 10 is actually some of the best football you're going to find. Yeah, I guess it's a little different. I don't know. I've never been to the big guys. I went to an Iowa game kind of thinking it was going to be a big deal when I was working in an

island. There's just nothing like tiger stadium, man. We'll get you down here. We're going to get you to tiger Island. You can come on down. We'll do the rounds. You know, we'll get carvel out there and a keg stand. there and I saw you do a keg stand. We'll get you to do a keg stand and show you how it's really done. All right. That sounds good. That sounds good to me. That sounds good to me.

You holler at me. That's Governor Westmore. I appreciate you very much, my friend. And let's, let's do this again soon. All right. Hey, bless you, Tim. I appreciate you, man. Thank you.

All right. Sounds good. Everybody else will be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Bullwork podcast. See you all. Thank you. All right, sounds good. Everybody else, we'll be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Bullwork Podcast. See y'all then. Peace. Carnivores in the caldron night Breathing free on by the candlelight Coke can't spit, slap you so polite Till you beg them for the tea and sympathy I wanna define the logic of all sex laws Let the hand go slip off your wrist I'll let you be my chaperone At the halfway home Full grown man but I'm not afraid to cry

Lefton's lips taste like fermented wine Perfume blots from the Ginza line Running back wild like a concubine His mother never held her hand Brief encounters in Mercedes Benz Wearing hepatitis contact lens Bed and breakfast at away weekends With sports illustrated marks I want to define The logic of all sex laws Let the hand go slip off your wrist I'll let you be my chaperone

At the halfway point I'm a full blown man but I'm Not afraid to cry The Bulldog Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.