The Bulwark Podcast - Sam Stein: A Bunch of Violent Keystone Cops

Episode Date: October 9, 2025

ICE and other armed federal agents are doing their best to incite violence in blue cities so they can help Trump realize his unfulfilled dream from 2020 to impose a military crackdown. At the same time, Trump can only point to what happened in Portland five years ago during Black Lives Matter protests to try to bolster his case. Meanwhile, Comey has a pretty good shot to get his case dismissed—thanks in part to a Truth Social post that was supposed to be a DM to Bondi directing her to go after his enemies. Plus, doubts around the longterm sustainability of the Israel-Hamas ceasefire deal, the butch-up cosplay behind the blowing up of boats off of Venezuela, and the real power of conservative media influencers like Candace and Tucker. Sam Stein joins Tim Miller. Sam Stein joins Tim Miller. show notes Adrian on ICE's propaganda videos Amit Segal's newsletter Tim referenced, "It's Noon in Israel" Katie Porter's interview with local CBS reporter; starts around 13:45

Hello and welcome to the Bullwark podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to be here with my friend, the managing editor of this year, Bullwark, a man who is just this very week derided as repugnant by the, what do we call Stephen Miller? What's his job these days? The most powerful aid in America. It's powerful, the most powerful aid in the White House. Maybe somebody who is reflecting how he feels about himself on the inside and lashing it out and projecting it onto others on the outside.

And given that moment for you, I felt like we should podcast together this week. I appreciate that. I didn't realize that it could have been projection, but that makes a lot of sense. You should go into psychiatry. Yeah. Well, he also called somebody vile. Who was it they called vile? He called somebody else vile.

Vile, disgusting. Dan Goldman. Yeah. Yeah, vile, repugnant, disgusting. We're going to get into my thoughts about Stephen Miller towards the end and some of the things AOC said about it. But first, we have a ton of news. I want to start with what's happening in Chicago.

I did a little monologue on this yesterday. We're going to go much deeper, I think, with on the ground folks tomorrow. So I kind of want to focus on the political. But the video and the examples of overreach that we're saying in Chicago are pretty shocking. I know overreach is a fucking understatement. Like a Black Hawk helicopter, people repelling from it, jumping into a building, knocking down, banging down doors, American citizens' doors, in addition to migrants' doors, mass thugs, menacing people. I posted a video yesterday. It turns out of being an old video that's been resurfaced of a priest who is praying outside the ice facility who gets gatted with a pepper ball.

Yeah, pepperball. And, you know, I think that there is a lot of consternation about kind of where this is headed. and I wonder what your biggest picture thoughts on. Yeah, definitely a lot of consternation. I feel concerned personally. You're consternated? I'm a heavy consternation. Is there like a pill for that?

I think the problem that, the issue that I have is that the administration doesn't want to calm the tensions. It doesn't want to make things smoother. It doesn't want to ease the frictions between itself in Chicago. It's not reaching out to J.B. Pritzker saying, hey, we were going to send these troops. but how can we do it in a way that's palatable for you? It wants to make things more tense. It wants to amplify these horrific situations and scenes, and then it wants to publicize them.

It is invested in creating chaos because that chaos allows it to justify further amplifying their operations, or ice operations particularly. So that's what makes me really anxious here is that in different times perhaps cooler heads might actually prevail. At least they'd have some conversations. In the current time, there is an incentive for this administration to just keep amplifying it. And, you know, the scenes in Chicago are just the beginning, right? Yeah, to this point, they don't want a

calm end game. Like you're saying, they are inciting. The violence is being incited by them because they want it. And I think Pritzker has been very strong on this. It's a minor nitpick, but I just think it's an important messaging point. He was mocking the president, which I encourage and support, I think it was yesterday or two days ago, and saying that these plans are like are so crazy, like that he must have dementia. And I think that while Donald Trump certainly has psychological issues, the point here is that, like, it isn't that. This is an intentional plan. They want, they had a plan. This is what Trump wanted to do in 2020, really, during the Black Lives Matter protest, but there were cooler heads prevailing within his own administration,

right? And now everybody is agitating for this and they want to fight. Like, they want their, to be excused for them to expand the operations. 100%. And to what end is, I guess, the big unknown, right? So they're going to send Texas National Guard into Illinois. Are they going to invoke the Insurrection Act if they can't do it? How much military are going to be in the streets of certain states and cities? And how long will they be there?

And what does it mean if there are actually more confrontations, right? I mean, you and I were talking a little bit earlier about whether this is sort of the beginning at the beginning, like, or the manifestation of our worst fears or something in between. And the thing is, we just don't know, right? I think we could try to imagine where it goes from here, but, like, it could go in some fairly dark directions. There's something we do know that you mentioned the Insurrection Act. I was talking at the live show that we had in D.C. last night where it was great to see

everybody who had a great time. Sorry, I couldn't make it. You know. We wanted you there. Did you? Not a lot of people I asked about you. I know that you mentioned it. I was talking to somebody who has a lot of sources and friends in, you know, in kind of these offices and law enforcement and federal law enforcement.

And what they said kind of confirms reporting and what I've heard from other places, which is like the amount of resources that are being redirected right now from within DHS, from within FBI, from within DOJ, like everything is being refocused towards their plans to. Chicago, their plans in Portland, Memphis, maybe my city, New Orleans. They're being redirected towards all immigration stuff. And without giving details, because I haven't, I confirmed this. Like, it's, it's alarming. Like, like, people who have very serious jobs in security and keeping us safe and going after bad guys that are doing very bad things are like now instead being redirected towards, like, supporting the ICE mission in Chicago. Oh, yeah. I have people who I know at DOJ, who, I mean, early on, they were like, you know, they'd have colleagues who were like, you know, experts in national security law, like cyber, or just trying, like,

regular old cases of corruption. And they're being reassigned to immigration operations. And at first everyone's like, well, maybe that's like punishment because they don't like these people and they're just like putting them down on the, you know, ladder. But like, in reality, it turns out that that was just prioritization. They just want to put everybody on immigration cases. and that's their priority. So it's not just, you know, it's across the spectrum of agencies,

and you see it all over the place. And, you know, we'll see how that works out because I've got to be honest. I don't think immigration is the only problem the government has to deal with. Our colleague Adrian Keroskeo wrote about the propaganda that these guys are putting out on this, which is very dark. And I want you to talk about his reporting. I talked about this a little bit yesterday. But the thing that has really shook me, for some reason, I can't, like,

I found myself re-watching the video like several times. I don't know why. It's like a self-punishment or like that I can't believe it's real or something, but it's hitting me at a emotional level is like the video that they put out with the Zach Bryan song revival to troll

Zach Ryan is the country music singer who like who does the anti-ice song. And like this video is like they are gleeful about it. It is like these video of people being chained and they're trying to use this song. It's supposed to be about redemption and gathering with your friends and community and you and co-opting it in service of this

propaganda campaign that celebrates the just grotesque punishment of people you know we don't know who is in these images but you would assume based on their track record at least some of whom their only crime was was trying to come to you know the land of milk and honey and live and live out their lives but what else did it talk about adrians i thought israel was the land of milk and Honey, I thought it was America, you know, Shining City on the Hill. You know, the place where you can, the place where you can love your dreams. Can we get a look at that bottle you're drinking in that, beer? Yeah, this is H2O with some peptides.

I heard about the peptides in yesterday's podcast. I've been trying that. They're doing great work. Look at you. It's great. Adrian's piece was like both great and chilling. The Zach Bryan thing, he was like, you know, that was like the perfect encapsulation of this administration because it was at once, like,

petty to like a degree that I couldn't even imagine, but also to your point, it was, you know, they're celebrating like a very dark thing and they're just propagandizing it. Adrian's point, though, is that the propaganda PR elements of the ICE operation are really sort of an underappreciated and telling component of what they're doing. They know that they're in an information warfare ecosystem and that they have to compete with everyday citizens who are taking footage of ice raids on their video. You see it all the time, right? You know, you see pictures of like agents pointing guns at people. They're all over the place. And so what DHS and ICE have done is they've put together, you know, really a

sophisticated operation to just pump highly edited videos out into the ecosystem. And they've collaborated with conservative influencers, bringing them on AIDS, helping them get access to ice facilities, putting them on the roof of the Portland Ice Facility so that they can both participate with the operations, get into scrums with protesters, you know, run videos of those scrums, and then take those videos and then go out to more mainstream conservative publications, mostly Fox News, and talk about it and creates this echo chamber in which ICE is glorified. Their mission is always, you know, taking down hardened criminals and, you know, they're trying to persuade the public that this is totally rational and

justified. I've never seen a government put this much attention into the PR elements of what they are doing I could think of one Well, our government It was a few decades ago now You know, you don't want to bring it up But I could think of one government To put a lot of thought into their propaganda efforts

Yeah, the snuff films that they're putting out Are really sick And it's something There's one where they have like this classical music background to it And it's like it's like they're It just really sent like chills At my spine Because they're trying to make it seem like

The ice operations or the sophisticated, you know, highbrow operations. And it's just, you know, it doesn't feel right. It is chilling. Speaking of the influencers, a couple of thoughts on that. One that comes to mind is one of the influence they brought out with them. It was a guy named Benny Johnson, who you might remember. I know who that is a big conservative influencer did some work at TPSA, other places.

Definitely not gay. I just want to make sure that's really clear. He's very straight and masculine. And he did an AI video. He went on the raid and then he did a subsequent AI video where he's like beating up immigrants. And they're like a lot of these shirtless, oiled up tattooed men that he gets to beat up, which is again, totally straight, like totally heterosexual. It's not anything to do with any other issues that he might be dealing with. And I don't know.

I mean, that's pretty, it's pretty dark that that's where we're at. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. I just wanted to mention it. Because I was so impressed with his mask. Yeah, you mentioned the issue of projection earlier on, I suppose. Leave it at that. Anyway, the other influencer thing I wanted to bring up, there was an Antifa meeting at the White House yesterday.

Not actually. I just want to be clear. Antifa was not invited into the White House. It was a meeting with influencers, which they called independent journal. who are mostly anti, you know, whatever, MAGA influencers that go and try to stir up shit with left-wing protesters and groups. And they were invited to the White House yesterday. And I couldn't, I couldn't stomach it. And it was just too, it was too stupid for me. And I had to get my mind right for the show. And I was just like, I'm not, so did you, did you know, engage any

of that? Yeah, because I'm going to say this. The point of the meeting, I guess, was that they announced that Attorney General announced that they were going to go after Antifa a root and branch the same way they're going after the drug cartel. So I don't know if that means that they're going to start sniping liberals from the sky like they're doing in the Caribbean or what was she meant by that. But that was the main takeaway I had. The details will be filled in later. No, there are some moments where Trump at one point was like, we stopped free speech.

And people were like, what did he mean? What did he mean by that? But what he meant is you can no longer burn the flag, which he didn't do. There was another point where Trump seemed to be dozing off a little bit because I think even he got a little bit bored by it. And the whole thing, it felt a little bit like we had jumped the shark a little bit because all these people took, you know, 10 minutes to talk about how hard-fying Portland was. I don't know. Yeah. Trump brought up, the one thing I noticed is he, like, they're still getting blocked by the judge there.

So shout out to, you know, one of the main elements of resistance, the judge in, the Trump appointed judge in Oregon. And, you know, along with the sandwich person, one of our, one of our rare heroes of the year. I forgot about the sandwich guy. Oh, yeah, the sandwich tosser. Oh, yeah, a big hero. During that conversation of Portland and how dangerous it is, et cetera, Trump said that he's under the impression they don't even have stores anymore, that they don't, like when they open up new stores, they don't put glass.

No, he literally said that, right? They don't put up glass window. Like, if they do put up stores, there's no glass, they just immediately start with the plywood. what there's no windows i just want to be clear tim's being verbat the quote is verbatim they don't even have stores anymore in portland what does he think i mean i do i got a message from um one of my little brother's friends for childhood i'm like about i'm an older sibling by a lot my little brother came around later and so i coached their basketball team when they're in kindergarten

when i was like in high school yeah and so you know i like i love all those kids and they're like in they're whatever in their 20s now and one of them was in Portland and he was just like he's like sent me some pictures of his bike ride past the ice facility and he's like it's great he's like you don't even understand how little is actually happening like the protests aren't even really that big and obviously there's also the video going around of like the people in the car the furries that were dancing around yeah the the furies and the dragon costumes and like there's one guy who keeps going around singing at them in a dragon costume which I find kind of humorous and they seem to chuckle at it too. But they do

have stores. They do have stores. They just want to be clear. They do have stars. I didn't ask Tommy. I think so. I'll confirm and report tomorrow. I'll ask Tommy if it's... It's like when Mike Johnson said D.C. was a quote, literal war zone prior to Trump's intervention in D.C. This is why it's just tough to balance all this, right? Like, on the one hand, JVL writes this emergency triad earlier this week that's like, like this is the sum of all fears, basically. Like, Texas

is invading Illinois. an insurrection act maybe around the corner. On the other hand, they're talking about sending troops into a place where there's just old hippies singing this land as your land and people and furries. And it's not, like, it's comical. So it's hard to kind of balance that you've had a little bit.

It's a good point because sometimes I think to myself, these people are idiots. Like, what are they talking about? Obviously, there are stores. Yes, they even have glass windows. And no, you could actually go to a restaurant in DC, like you could. And yet at the same time,

you know, I'm sure there's a huge swath of the country. I know there's a huge swath of the country that actually believes this bullshit. And, you know, so long as that's the case, they get kind of a bit of support to do these pretty outlandish things like sending Texas

National Guard into Illinois. So I do agree with you. I think it's a little bit hard to kind of figure out how because, you know, they are to a degree Keystone cops and we'll get into the Comey thing in a bit, I know, because that's... Let's just do it. Let's go straight into the Keystone Cops.

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Peter Navarro was very mad yesterday on some mega media outlets about how he was. Because he didn't get perp walk. Yeah, he got leg chains. What do they call those? The leg shackles. He was shackled, I guess. Navarro was shackled. Navarro was shackled.

yeah um and so he was not happy about that maybe that was at her i kind of don't remember the details of peter navarro's crimes sure but uh he was pissed that jim komi just got to go home and comys saying that he's going to try to get the case thrown out based on vindictive prosecution and i think that there's some pretty good evidence there on that and uh there's a story for the wall street journal do you have any thoughts on that before i get to the wall street journal story the journal story was really you posted it and i think i thought when i landed in dc yesterday and I had to, I had to, like, read it twice before I read, before I repost it. I was like, is this really true?

So I'm just going to read it to everybody. Folks might remember when Trump sent that truth, the bleat about, like, talking to Pam Bondi, where it said, like, Pam, and then it gave her some instructions regarding how she needs to arrest his foes. And a lot of people, I just want to admit this right up front. A lot of people were out there on social media saying this was supposed to be a DM, and Trump fucked it up. And I looked at it and I was like, no, I think Trump's just weird. and was like posting a public, like a public declaration and just, and is addressing it to Pam. I was wrong. Pundant accountability.

It was an errant DM. On September 20th, Trump met to send a private message to Attorney General Pam Bondi, urging her to prosecute James Comey and his other favored targets, according to U.S. officials familiar. We can't delay any longer. It's killing our reputation and credibility, Trump wrote. Trump believed he had sent Bondi the message directly addressing it to Pam. and was surprised to learn it was public, the official said. Bondi grew upset and called White House AIDS.

And Trump, who then agreed to send a second post praising Bondi as doing a great job. What in the fuck? How is this real? There's a lot to impact here. One, like, I'm with you. I admit, like, initially I thought this was kind of like performative and he's like pretending it's a DM, right? But he meant to go public.

So, you know, even my depraved mind, I couldn't imagine the fuck up like that. I mean, our level of TDS, like, this is something where people are like, you guys have TDS. You think Trump is way worse than you actually, you know, who wasn't one of the guys from, I was posting the other day about how the bulwark can't say anything nice about Trump. And they've totally lost their minds. And I was like, I was giving Trump the benefit of the doubt here. Trump is actually stupider than I realized. So there's that, there's the fact that, like, I'm not. This is not me giving kudos to Trump because he doesn't deserve it.

But like my dad who's like, you know, in his early 80s, so a little bit older than Trump, but not too much older, he wouldn't know how to fucking DM. Like Trump's way too online. He needs to be less online. Like anyone who's 79 shouldn't be DMing as my theory in the case. I guess also,

but in addition to the DMing, though, I thought that it was like Trump would not possibly, like as corrupt and stupid as he is. I could not imagine. I can imagine that he possibly would have thought that the right vehicle for sending her a directive would have been truth social DM. I know. And that he would say to her Pam, you must prosecute Comey in a very performative manner.

It's so weird. Like if I had to like rank the mediums I would have done to send that directive, I would have gone first with like phone or in person. Phone. Maybe an email. Syncrypted app. Incit. signal. I don't know. Even a text. A DM over true social is like way on the list. Park bench meeting, you know, like one of those things or you kind of both sit together. I don't know anything.

Like it just was so, it's just so bad. And then, I mean, obviously there's the, it's bad to direct your attorney general to prosecute your enemies. Yes. It's bad to communicate sensitive information over truth fucking social run by Devin Nunez. But also like, it's kind of underappreciated here. but Pam Bondi, like, she's upset that he made her look back. It's like, that's what got your go. You need him to send a secondary post being like, Pam, you're doing a great job. It's like, no. Stop directing me to do prosecutions is the problem.

It's not that you said I'm not doing a good job. Oh, my God. I know it's eye-roly to do this at this point, but like how many minutes of Fox News was spent about the tarmac meeting? You don't need to do that. I mean, I don't. Well, it's crazy. Tarmac meeting, Hillary Clinton's use of emails, all this. The president is directing the attorney general to prosecute his political foes via

truth social DM. An errant DM got publicized where he was trying to be like, ma'am, you must prosecute these people. I hate, did he, we need to pull this up live. Did he call him Shifty Schiff in the DM? I was like, he can't break character. He's just like, I will have to be, I'm going to have to call him Shifty Schiff. Now, the thing about while you look good up, I'll just say Pam Bondi was on the hill this past week, as you know, for the judiciary oversight hearing.

And she was so indignant about everything. And she refused to admit anything to anyone and all this stuff. But what she did admit, well, I think on her question was like, I just want to be clear. Some say I was like, I want to be clear. Is that, um, is that Pam, you? And she was like, I will concede. That's probably me. It's like, yeah, it's probably.

She fucking DM'd you. I will concede that that is probably me. That is some tough stuff. Hold on. I'm pulling up. I tested, just so you know this. I went to test true social DMs just to see what the user experience was like and like whether it would be confusing. Who'd you DM? I DMed one of our staffers, Colin Jones. Appreciate Colin for also being untruth with me. Turns out I could have DMed myself because I found out when I was trying to sign on that I have two true social accounts. I forgot about one. One is titled Cuck Slayer.

And the other one, the other one is. titled, Fred doesn't love you. Why? Because Fred doesn't love him. Oh, Fred Trump? Fred Trump. Yeah, his dad doesn't love him. So one is Cuck Slayer, the others.

So I could have just deemed myself from Cucksler. Well, you know, I mean, it's not always, I'm not always coming up with my best when I'm signing up for truth social, which apparently I've done twice. So anyway, I tested it out. And, yeah, it, it's not that, it's not that easy to accidentally send a DM, I guess is my point. So, I mean, like, he really was struggling to look at it. He did say Shifty Shiff. I found it here.

So this is in the alleged, he's DMing his attorney general saying, what about Adam, quote, shifty shift? Oh, come on. How is that real? A woke rhino. He goes after also. I'm starting to doubt the journal story. You don't DM that way. Come on.

Unless you really can't break character, unless this just is who he is. And he can't help it. I think maybe he can't break character. Then he signs it. He signs it President DJT. Do you think he does that in his other messages to people? Like, Pete, nice job on the no fats and no femme speech, President DJT. And then he, like, puts a silhouette of a woman and writes his signature where the pubs should be.

That's what he does, yeah. I don't know. I feel pretty good about Jim Comey's case. We appreciate you, Jim Comey. I'll tell you, at the show last night, big cheer for Jim. Jim Comey. Jim Comey is being rehabilitated right now right in front of our eyes. Classic DC, 2016 Jim Comey love.

Or maybe it's just a special bulwark love for Jim Comey. And this might be the few of the proud, those who can tolerate Jim Comey. All right. Anything else on that? Cuck Slayer. No, let's go on Cuckslayer. Yeah, all my topics. Comey, Chicago, Cuck Slayer, Ceasefire, all Cisease.

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What do you think about the news this morning? I want to just stress up top, like, kudos to the president, if this can hold. Honestly, it would have been more amazing if this was earlier. But it's a nearly impossible conflict to solve. And it has taken way too many lives. It has caused way too much hardship. it is a human rights catastrophe that has been unfolding for two years now, and anything that can bring it to an end, you should applaud.

And I have no problems applauding that, and I hope it holds. It really is stepping aside from the politics, it really just, it's like really sad, too, right? Like, I'm incredibly grateful and happy to see this happen. But it does provide a place for you to sort of think back and say, what actually was done in the past years? What was accomplished? Like, was any of this really worth it? And obviously, you know, Israel had to respond to what happened on October 7th.

But what objective did they achieve here? And we'll see if Hamas agrees to the phase two component, which is they do need to willfully give up their arms in their role in governance. And maybe that's worth it for Israel. But two years of incredible horrific bloodshed, thankfully is coming to an end. But it is a reminder that this shit. has been horrible, horrible. I'm mostly with you on that.

For starters, I just want to say it, I'm very happy the hostages are coming home. And I think that those images are going to be really powerful. And it's been way too long. So anybody that is involved in getting that done, kudos to them. When you talk about it holding, like, I just want to say, part of the reason it's like frustrating to talk about this at all, like for me is that in particular, is that I just, I don't trust any of the people involved in this at all. Like I've and and so maybe they will all surprise me and all the people being Trump, Whitkoff, Kushner, Bibi, Hamas, obviously, Cutter.

Like there's no player in there that I'm like, that's somebody that I really feel like is a reliable good faith actor. And so I'm just like, I don't, okay, like we'll see. Maybe they all will surprise me. And like this is a good step. I just, I think that also TBD, I mean, like, I'm. Emmett Siegel. Do you ever read him? He's got this newsletter. It's called it's Annoon in Israel, maybe, I think is what it's called. He's like super plugged in to, you know, I was asking folks who are more sympathetic to Israel. I was like, I want to read more from that perspective, right? And like, what's a good thing to read? And they suggested this newsletter. And this guy's very plugged in with baby government. And he wrote this, which I thought was interesting. He goes, there's no phase two, actually. That's clear to everyone. Phase two might have. happen someday, but it's unrelated to what's just been signed. The deal signed now is a hostage release deal. It doesn't imply anything about the future. Deoretically, fantasies, authority uses could

come true. Emeraldies and allies dismantling tunnels and international body form, Tony Blair, governing Gaza. Obviously, this is from his perspective that I wouldn't really be my fantasy. All this could happen in theory, but it's not part of the current negotiations. What we have now is a hostage deal and a ceasefire while talks continue in good faith. I saw somebody who is from the more plugged in on the Hamas side or the Palestine side, whatever you want to call it, and that basically was saying the same. So I don't know. So I'm like, I'm a little skeptical.

Dan should just want of the thing on other, because I was just from trying to read people who are actually experts on this, which is not me this morning. Dan Shapiro is Biden's envoy to Israel, is in foreign policy. And he is a piece this morning. Basically says, Trump's style, this kind of madman theory, like demonstrates it kind of worked more for like forcing people to the table on this and getting this part done. but that it's like a less effective method for like the more sustaining process in the future, which I think is probably a fair analysis.

So anyway, I don't know. What did you make any of that? Well, I want to talk to Dan. He might come on to Bullwark-Tigs if we can get him. But yeah, I don't disagree with any of that. And I think it's important to remember that there was actually a kind of a C-Star deal that took hold in the spring with Trump. And then it fell apart. And then, of course, over the summer, you had.

all, you know, reports of mass starvation in Gaza and questions about whether Israel is just going to overtake Gaza City. So, yeah, there's no reason that anyone should be completely optimistic about long-term stability in the region. And frankly, you know, Netanyahu has already right-wing cabinet members saying this is not good, he's got pressure from the right, it's unclear if there's any moderate left party in Israel that could apply the same amount of pressure. And then, you know, you have Hamas that will, if they remain in any sort of political power position, is not going to just go quietly. So tons of question marks surrounding this and real doubt about long-term sustainability of anything here. But a cessation of the fights and the return of the hostages is fundamental.

And you can't move to any phase two unless you get to phase one. And so, you know, I go back to thinking, these hostages, is this deal probably could have been achieved, you know, a year ago, a year and a half ago. It really could have. And tens of thousands. The outlines of it are not that different from what Blinken was proposing, yeah. It is exactly what you suspect. It's we're going to give you back hostage is dead and live. You're going to give us back prisoners that you've taken. We're going to have a sort of retrenchment of the IDF forces. You're going to have a buffer zone. And then we'll talk about a longer term political settlement.

It's not, I mean, it's not that complicated, actually. And instead, they spent a year and a half going back and forth, allowing Israel, frankly, to, you know, cause an incredible havoc in hopes of getting something better. And we ended up at a place where I think pretty much everyone suspected we would end up if we ever got to a resolution. In a way, it makes me really, like, sad again to think that what was lost. As your point about the sadness, I saw this post from Mark Polis. Maropoulos, his former CIA guy, which I really, I thought it was good perspective as you kind of think about, obviously, the good news that the hostages are coming home. But then he writes, like the trauma and horror of all this is about to come much more real for the public. Hostages return after two years in captivity, likely with terrible accounts of their suffering. They're going to look horrible. And then he said, a stents we will see whether now journalists will be able to enter Gaza. And they'll be able to witness, you know, love more firsthand the devastation that we're saying in Gaza, you know, the trauma of that, the toll on that, like how that kind of impacts face two negotiations and what comes next. And I just think that there's a lot of potential, you know, for fallout

there. Yeah. Humanities can be pretty terrible to each other. It's awful. Are you ready for this Mickey Koss? I want to do one piece of objective. Oh, God. Why are we going on Mickey? Okay. Well, he was the one, I remembered who it was. He was the one that said the Borg never can compliment Trump. Here's my one piece of thing. Mickey. I have a history with Mickey and that hurts. Well, Mickey, here you go. I'm going to compliment Donald Trump. We're really lucky that Donald Trump wants a peace prize and not world domination. Like, there's a version of Trump that is much more focused on his legacy being, whatever, Greenland or U.S. expansion to Panama or whatever, a Putin-style obsession with their kind of legacy of expanding empire.

It's not crazy to imagine a version of Trump that's. is like that. And that's the main thing that is their obsession. And the fact that he, that his self, his assessment of his self, or what he wants to be known for is as a deal maker because of his real estate time, because he wrote a book, The Art of the Deal. It's kind of like, thank God he wrote a book The Art of the Deal. Because the fact that like that is what his obsession is, he wants to be seen as the guy that gets peace deals done, I'll take it. It could be worse. How about that? You make a good case for the Nobel Committee to not give him the prize to just dangle it out there to keep them going.

Yeah, and I hear they supposed to, they had to decide on Monday, so the timing on this isn't great for them. So maybe 2026, Donnie. Yeah, no, I'm assuming you've seen all the over-the-top members of Congress. Rename the Nobel Prize, Peace Prize, the Donald Trump Peace Prize. Yeah, I saw Javier Malay, the Argentine leader that we just bailed out with $20 billion is like, I will officially nominate Donald Trump. It's like, okay, I'd rather keep our $20 billion than that.

Also, he's been nominated by like 18 different people at this point. It doesn't take much to nominate the guy. All right. Back to our usual bullshit. This is real zigzags. It's not like he's only about peace deals. We are still currently bombing people in the Caribbean. Bombing people in the Caribbean.

And the president of Colombia, Gustavo Petro, put out a statement claiming that one of these strikes had hit a Colombian boat with Colombian citizens inside. We'll see, we don't, you know, we don't know. The thing to me that is the most alarming about all this is like, this is an illegal war about nothing. Like, the war is about nothing. Like, we are bombing boats out of the Caribbean with no, like, real objective. And I guess there's some reporting that we have an objective of regime change in Venezuela,

which is like, okay, I guess maybe we'll, we'll see if that's what Marco Rubio tries to push through but like it's insane that we are just bombing boats for like no real reason the fact that you said we don't know if there were Colombian citizens is a problem right like you should probably know who you're bombing before you do it I'm laughing why am I laughing so fucked I don't know do you have a therapist that might be something to talk about with the therapist while you laugh no I it's a defensive mechanism obviously can I tell you something I gosh I'm going to get in big trouble with my mother for bringing this off don't tell her everybody she was a respiratory therapist okay and and she was like this was a big problem for her in the hospital which is like in moments of like seriousness

discomfort and discomfort she would laugh yeah i this is a problem when my this happens all the time when my kids i don't know if this happens with your kids where it's like when they get super angry and they start like freaking out like i just can't help but laugh and that just makes them matter like much much matter And then that makes me laugh. You fit a harder. And my wife has to be like, leave the room. Leave the room, Sam.

And I just, I can't stop. That does not happen to me on the peacemaker in my household. You're the Donald Trump. Bless it be the peacemaker. The cuck slayer. No, back to Columbia and the boats. It's crazy. They tried to put a war resolution.

They did put a war resolution on the Senate floor. Adam shifted. And it got voted down. And essentially what's happening here is that the Pentagon's just basically bombing targets without giving us any indication of who's on these boats. And basically saying, well, trust us. These are drug smugglers. And we're doing this because it's a war on fentanyl. There's no urgent drug crisis.

There's no evidence that this is fentanyl. This is cocaine. This isn't fentanyl. The fentanyl comes from China and Mexico. And people can make it here. Like there's nobody's even making the accusation that there's a Venezuelan fentanyl trade. Correct. So we're bombing people because of cocaine?

That's what, like there's a Coke crisis down the country? I think your point is probably valid, which is there's a larger angle here around Venezuela and trying to provoke them to do some sort of response that could be escalatory. And then you have sort of some rationalization for, you know, doing something even grander, like regime change. But, you know, beyond a few members, I know Todd Young voted against the war resolution, but said he was deeply concerned about what's going on. Like Rand Paul has been good on this. But, like, that's it.

And you got to be like, what is the, I mean, we say this all the time, but like, your job as a member of the Congress's oversight is authorizing these types of things. And to just basically abdicate that and say, yeah, go ahead and bomb. It's just, what are you doing there? Have some dignity. Do we know who's for this? I guess it's basically just Marco. It's Marco and like Pete Heggseth wants to get butched up because there is his internal tension, right? Within the administration.

It's definitely Marko, definitely Heggseth. But there was a lot of reporting about Rick Grinnell and him having some sort of different I didn't get too deep into it. I don't know if you saw it. I don't know. I guess there is some tension in there. But again, this goes back to the PR elements of it too. Every time they blow up a boat, they absolutely rush to disseminate it on all their channels.

They look at us. This isn't actually that much of a zigzag from my point about Trump. The administration simultaneously wants to represent Donald. Trump as his dealmaker who does a lot of peace deals and like that's important to Donald Trump into his own identity and so they want to project that but they also want to project that they're tough guys right fuck around and find out yeah and so you can't be a fuck around and find out guy and also a give peace a chance blessed be the peacemakers guy right like there's there's there's an internal tension there and so like they're trying to solve that I think

by being like we're the peacemaker guys on these overseas deals but in our little sphere of influence here with the migrants and with the drugs we're going to butcher up I think that's what's happening. I disagree a little bit. Maybe, but a twist on it is I think they believe that by being overtly tough to the point where you're blowing boats up and, you know, detaining and arresting anyone who looks brown or illegal here, that you can create peace, right? Like, that's how they would rationalize it as you just get rid of, you know, just eliminate all the badness from the world and you can then live in some sort of utopia. But, of course, that's not how reality works. we're taking a hard turn into politics world but before i get to kind of some some campaign stuff

did you get to do anything on candis yesterday or was that just jvill and sarah so i edited will uh i edited his newsletter but i didn't do the video you've not well you've not spoken about i've not spoken about it and i think we should do it i was weighing back and forth whether or not we should do we should talk about candis and i think we should i think you deserve it it's thursday we've had some heavy material candis is a kind of a medium now between the living in the dead, and I'd like to hear from her. Had a vivid dream this weekend, and Charlie came to me, and he told me that he was betrayed. And so for me, you don't have to believe that, but I do believe that.

And it was the immediate sense I got actually, and I don't know who exactly it is that betrayed him, but I also felt in the dream that it is soon going to be revealed, that it's actually inevitable, that it is going to be revealed, that there is nothing and no one that is going to stop the truth from coming out and it is going to have international consequences. Take that to the bank. Quote me on that. We're quoting you, Candace. It's going to have international consequences.

What do you think? Who do you think might have betrayed Charlie internationally? Sam, do you have any thoughts on which? Well, obviously the Jews. The Jews. Let's be clear. She's been dangling this idea that, you know, Israel is responsible for the assassination. And Charlie was getting pressured by Jewish donors.

because he wouldn't break ties with Tucker Carlson. And you should just, for folks who actually like this stuff, go read false lag, Will's got it covered. It's so gross. And, you know, some of the shit that they throw at each other, I can't even understand. I will say, I understand the idea of someone coming to you in their dream and saying that you've been betrayed.

Happens to me a lot. Did the Jews betray you? No, no, no, no. In my dreams, my newsletter writers come to me and say, You betrayed me, Sam. And I get haunted by that. No, Kansas is a little bit nutty. The other thing, though, and Will's writing about this today about Candace,

which I think we, you know, we're rightfully laughing at this seance. I'm not laughing. Yeah, you are. I'll take it very seriously. Your girl, Megan Kelly, that you seem to have some sort of relationship with online, Will is writing about her today. Megan Kelly's under a lot of pressure to, you know, criticize Candice. for what she's saying about Charlie Kirk because Ben Kelly's friends of Charlie Kirk.

Ben Kelly won't do it. In Will's theory, the case is that Kansas Owens is just too powerful now. Yeah. Just too powerful. This is important. Like, why are we talking about this? And this is important. These guys' numbers are huge.

And I want to play a clip from Tucker next and I have a little bit more. But Sam Altman, I talked about this on yesterday's show. Sam Altman did an interview with Tucker, which is insane. He did? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I guess you don't listen to yesterday's podcast. She probably should.

Sam Alton, who might end up being the most powerful. private sector individual in the country, if he's not already, is likely to be soon. He felt like he needed to sit down with Tucker. The numbers that Tucker and Candace do are crazy. Throwing Nick Fuentes in the mix, man, because these people are really,

really powerful. They have incredible online followings. And, you know, the power brokers in conservative media have shifted even, we thought things were like really bad heading into this administration. Since this administration, the real power brokers and conservative media are just even further out on the spectrum.

Jim. Fuentes and Owens are two of them. Benny Johnson is obviously becoming one or trying to become one. The Megan Kelly's of the world who were, you know, from more mainstream outlets and actually believed in like some version of reporting and I guess the truth at some point in their careers, they no longer are, you know, the real power brokers. They understand where it is. Well, no, that's why Megan's dabbling in that. Because Megan's numbers, if you look to the Ben Shapiro's, like numbers are trying to decline, like he's the responsible one. Like, that's where things have happened is like, you know, relative. this other stuff.

Speaking of irresponsibility, I just want to play a Tucker clip as well. This is from, I believe this week's show. Why is America moving towards civil war for the same reason all countries that wind up in civil war get there because the differences

between their population between people within their borders becomes too great to bear. People decide I have nothing in common with the people who live near me and I don't want to live near them anymore. In other words, diversity, difference is actually intolerable

to most people not necessarily racial diversity though sometimes that too but diversity of all kinds it is not our strength in fact it is without question our weakness and it has always been i want to talk about the merits of what he's saying really quick and why i'm worried about it but just before that i just want to flag a little tell for everybody anybody who uh who watch rounders you know it knows that sometimes poker players have a tell for kitty kgb it was the orio that he can you do your uh can you do your malcovitch russian accent i can't do it i'll go to his The tell is eating the Oreo. The tell for Tucker and Candace and these people is the word actually.

It's word actually. Tucker does this all the time. He's like diversity. Diversity is not our strength, actually. It's our weakness, actually. Candace is like, in my dreams, the spirit of Charlie Kirk told me he was betrayed. And I believe that, actually. It is.

If you felt like you need to say actually, you don't really believe it, I don't think. I think that is your way of just trying to emphasize. point that you know is ridiculous anyway so that's just a little tell for everybody just a little tip when you're out there listening to these guys actually is there is their tell the tucker civil war thing is pretty alarming because it's something i've brought up a couple of times but i just i want to keep chewing on it because the ken burns interview he was talking about this optimum the thing that worked in the revolution was that a lot of those a lot of the um the principles of the of the founding and the declaration were like these aspirational principles that obviously these guys didn't

live up to and that some of them didn't even really believe could be lived up to. Like putting that idea kind of made it happen, right? Like they manifested something that they wanted to happen imperfectly. And I'm very concerned about the inverse of this happening right now. This stuff wasn't happening before. Like people were prominent people were not talking about how civil war might happen. And I worry that like that just that idea getting out kind of leads in some ways sort of leads us to a place where like it becomes reality. because it is in the ether.

I'm not saying that we're imminently at risk of civil war, but it's very dangerous, and I think that it's important to rebut it rather than kind of be like, oh, Tucker's crazy. Well, that's a good point, actually. Thank you, actually. Actually. Thank you.

Everyone's wrong on that good points. That's my tell. No, it's not a good point. It wasn't a good point. No, I will disagree. I will disagree with you on one front. Okay, great. I don't think this is all that new.

I feel like there's always been a strand of people, including in the Commentariat, who have argued that, you know, diversity is not our strength, that we are destined for civil war, that we should, you know, succeed or that our populations aren't meant to be integrated. I do think that's just a strand of our history. I think the difference here is that the dissemination of these viewpoints is a lot wider. I think some of it is embraced by more, you know, official government, you know, entities and politicians. I think people are trying to take advantage of the sense of division, obviously, as Tucker is doing right here. And so, you know, that makes it scary and it makes it more likely to cause real strife and problems. But, you know, I don't know if it's necessarily all that distinct from other parts of our history. Actually, I think you're wrong, actually.

I mean, not made in our history, but in present days, I think it's pretty, I think the proliferation of it is, is noticeably different from when we are growing up. Well, we grew up in the 90s when everything was fucking awesome. Yeah, that's true. And I want to be, can I be corny for a second? Sure. Because it is not only dangerous, it's just fundamentally wrong. And I think it's important that we both rebut him, but also mock it. I was outside of 30 Rock last week, and a woman came up to me.

from Georgia in a nice southern accent. She was excited to see me. She watched MSNBC. It was really sweet. You know, did it, said hi. Did a little selfie. And as I was waiting for my Uber, she said, you know, I'm up here and I just, I don't understand why were everyone so at their throats, each other's throats.

She's, I'm walking down the street here in New York and there are people of every race and a different, you know, rich people and more people. And she says, everybody seems happy and fine and vibrant. Everything seems normal. things don't seem dangerous in any way. And I don't understand why these things have spiraled out of control. And like that is a corny sentiment that is just right, that is just the correct. Like it is a corny sentiment that is correct.

We are all fine. The vast, vast majority of people, even those that people that disagree with us in the country are not looking for a civil war or not interested in blood or not interested in revolution. And we should mock these people that say that they want it. Tucker should just have to walk around liberal places. And I think you would realize that people would maybe shout nasty things at him, but things would be fine. It would be fine. Yeah, well, a lot of what Tucker is doing is just sort of self-fulfilling, right?

Like, because you talk about, you know, how we're so close to civil war, you're fermenting it, right? And also, as you know, like, I'm a big believer in the fact that people can, if they just talk to each other, actually can, you know, realize that there's a collective humanity and that we're not totally different. and we can be civil to each other, like just have a civil conversation. I believe that.

I fundamentally do believe that. It's why I stupidly call people up all the time just to just talk about why they call me, you know, a piece of shit on Twitter. And also it's self-refuting. Donald Trump's own rise for whatever you want to say about Donald Trump has been built on the idea

that you can convert people who are liberal into being MAGA. Like, that's it. Like, he constantly boasts about all the Hispanics and black voters. he's brought into his tent, all the disaffected liberals, all the Maha people who were once tree huggers and hated, you know, skittles because of the red dye and now love maga. Like Donald Trump's entire political existence is predicated in an idea that you can convert people

to your cause and that we are not so rigid. I don't think Donald Trump's actually bringing the country together, but that's another point. I think what Tucker says is just fundamentally wrong, and I think you're right. He should be mocked for it because it's so. cynical and it's so small in its scope. And it just is so, it's such a negative reflection on how he views people, not of people themselves. I want to read one other critique of Candace and Tucker. Sure. It was from Dinesh De Sousa. Very insightful point, I think, that he made. Dartmouth, my man. Yeah. Oh, yeah, fellow Dartmouth ones. Fellow Dartmouth one.

Was it Dinesh that was like did a lot of anti-gay stuff, the newspaper? Dartmouth or was that Laura Ingram. He was in the love triangle with her. I think they were at the review together, and it might have been anti-gay, but it also might have been pro-apartheid. I'm not totally sure. You got a pro-apartite thing? There's a big thing about shanty towns in the college campus. I haven't tried to pitch a story

to Hollywood. I know we have some Hollywood people, listen, about Dinesh and Laura Ingram in college, and then how they got into a love triangle with Anne Coulter and have it be like a comedy, like a romance comedy, a rom-com. Wait, if you just set it to a musical of some sort,

and you could be the next Hamilton. I think it would do really well. Hollywood, just talk to me if you're interested in that. Here's a Dinesh said about Candace. Here's Dinesh. I can't comment on Candice because it's quite obviously a freak show. Hard to argue with that on Dinesh. Agree with that.

It's like driving on the highway and seeing a farmer having sex with a sheep. You're losing me a little bit. I'm sorry. I just couldn't believe he said that. Okay. All right. So I'm just going to repeat, because he'll miss it. It's like driving on the highway and seeing a farmer having sex with a sheep. And he goes on, you don't want to look, but you can't look away either. Really? You can't look away either? Candice replies. Wait, can we before we get to the reply? I just, I want to take a moment on that tweet. One, how fast do you going on the highway? it's that you can even see it like are you what kind of highway are we talking about where is the farm

why is the farm so close to the highway and why's the sheep right so close to the road get those sheep away from the road why do you want to watch that's rubber neck and slam it on the brakes is not like thrusting his cock into that sheep is that good honey hold on put it in reverse that's a farmer fucking a sheep Like, what is Dinesh talking about? Horrible bad part. There's a sheep's vagina. Okay. Candice, or is it a butt?

It's the butt, I guess. Depends what the gender of the sheep is, obviously. Candice replies, who openly admits that they wouldn't look away if they watched a person having sex with a farm animal? Fair point by Candice. Dinesh, I was being humorous. Candice, humor is typically landed upon with relatability. I don't know what's on your laptop, but most people could not relate to feeling fascinated by farmers having sex with their sheep. Oh, this helps.

I mean, how bad at this do you have to be of your Dinesh, Susa, that Candace Owens, who is currently holding a seance with the death, with the spirit of Charlie Kirk, and talking about how the Jews killed him? And you decide to pick a Twitter fight with her, and she annihilate you. How do you get annihilated by somebody that believes that they're talking, is advancing? an anti-Semitic spirit argument. Candace was probably like, hold on, Charlie Kirk ghost. I got to, I got to respond to Dinesh, who's made some absurd sheep-fucking joke on Twitter. Like, the whole thing, these people, and yet, they're running the shit. I'm going to just do dealer's choice for you.

Maybe I'll do the rest of it on YouTube. We'll do a little bonus for people. Here are a couple options for my politics things I wanted to talk about. One is AOC, just crushing Stephen Miller, your friend, and going at him. He called you repugnant, and then AOC shot back and said he's like a small man. He's like four foot zero. He's little. Just to be clear.

AOC shot back in my honor, right? In your honor. And AOC came to your defense. And then she called him short. And then her viewers got mad at her. And then she had to do an apology video. Do her viewers actually get mad at her? I don't know. I'm just letting you know she did a video where she apologized and said she wants to shout out short kings.

I have the audio for that. That's one option. If you want to hear that apology or people can just check that out of themselves. Another option for videos or audio that we have for people is Katie Porter, who was, which I never understood how this was possible, but she was the frontrunner in the California governor's race until recently. She has an utter meltdown on Sacramento TV, Democratic candidate for California governor. We could play that. There's also Hakeem Jeffries on the positive engagement side on the Democrats, a rare attaboy for Hakeem out there. Hakeem goes nose to nose with Mike Lawler, the Republican Congressman for New York, kind of owns him. Those are my three. Which one of those do you want to do you want to do for our close? I'm going to do the one that probably is going to anger people the most, but I have the most to say about Katie Porter.

Let's listen. I don't want to keep doing this. I'm going to call it. Thank you. You're not going to do the interview with us. Nope, not like this, I'm not, not with seven follow-ups to every single question you ask. Every other candidate has answered our problems. I don't care.

I don't care. I want to have a pleasant, positive conversation which you ask me about every issue on this list. And if every question, you're going to make up a follow-up question, then we're never going to get there. And we're just going to circle around. I am an investigative reporter. I have never had to do this before, ever. You've never had to have a conversation with a reporter. No. Okay, but every other candidate has done this. What part of, I'm me, I'm running for governor because I'm a leader. I'm a leader. I am a leader. And a leader does not deal with follow-up questions from bit rate down market local news anchors from Sacramento. I am a leader, Sam.

She's acting like this reporter was, you know, saying, hey, can you put like staples in your eyes? like these are like you have to make it through 10 minutes of questions just give me a fucking break like come on the questions for people who have not seen the full video it's much longer what i played were about essentially the question was like 40% of california voted for trump how do you reach them what is your message for those people it was the most generic like softbally just like how do you talk to trump voters for your democrat was essentially the question and and katy just got very wrapped around the axle on the one hand you could just say I welcome everyone to my coalition, yada, yada, yada, like any normal person.

On the other hand, you could say, this is me, I'm a leader, and I've never had to do something like this, answer seven follow-ups. And it's like, she has some qualities that are good about her. And, you know, I appreciate some of the policies that she pursued. But, like, attitudeally, you got to expect more from the people who you elect than that, frankly. And I know people are like, well, you know, actually. actually frankly frankly i agree and um and i got to say this is a gift for the democrats so if you even if you're a katie forder fan let's teach their own uh but uh if you're a democrat out there you should be grateful she had this meltdown because the democratic governor candidate field

in california was as preposterous the katy has a lot of flaws as a candidate the other candidate was mayor via garrosa who's run like a hundred times and it is not exactly, you know, the person that you're looking for, if you're looking to, you know, reform and reignite the animal spirits of California. Right. And so hopefully this, before this all happened, I was talking to our friends over at Crooked media and I was saying, I want Dan Fifer. I want Dan Fiver again.

And yes, we Dan. And before all this happened, I was like, this field is terrible. You guys all live in California, finds either, either find somebody that is good to run for governor of the fucking biggest state in the country or else Dan has to do it. Yes, we Dan. And so maybe Dan gets in. now or maybe some other other folks will emerge when they see just how embarrassing this field is. Dan, are we sure Dan doesn't have similar temperamental issues to Katie Porter?

Does he have a temper? Never seen it? Okay. He's called me up and ream me out a few times for some stories, you know? We're going to end it here. I don't want to, I have a message that's also asked to Katie Porter assault the reporter. And I just want to say that that isn't, there's a hilarious AI video that is out so ties to yesterday's podcast that I believe I also believed okay so for one second for one second the first second I was like wait a minute did Katie touch the reporter because it because the video is very very realistic but then it becomes kind of silly after a while they start like tumbling on the ground this I believe it was made via Sora which we

talked about on yesterday's pod we're going the AI videos man it's gonna it's a different world yeah again real out of control that's a bad bad thing how are you feeling you good do you need to get baptized jim beam after this podcast or are you feeling a little bit of a more elevated bourbon than beam but okay do you think are you concerned about my katie porteresque behavior this morning look i'm all for i'm all for uh demanding bosses but you got to be human yeah okay yeah i'm i'm i'm sometimes on the side of bosses in these situations i was anyway Hopefully, my spirits felt good on the podcast because we have a little bit of a rocky start

out of Katie Porter moment myself. I'm only going to bring it up. Nobody got it on camera, though, so it didn't happen. No, they did get it on camera. Oh, really? Okay. Well, let's see what it looks like in public. I am a leader, Sam.

And I will not tolerate this studio. I am a leader of the bulwark. Is it Friday? No, it's Thursday. We have another podcast tomorrow. Everybody, I appreciate Sam Stein very much. We'll be back tomorrow for another. the edition of the bold podcasts.

We'll see you all tomorrow. Bye, peace. Are mine as well Anger grows in my bones it could not tell But I'll find comfort and company Lord forgive us my boys and me We're having an all-night revival and someone steal the Bible

for the save my survival baptize me and a bottle of bean for Johnny on the vinyl. Well, the devil can't sacrifice me in a bottle of bean for Johnny on the vinyl. Well, the devil can't scratch. I can't scrap what the Lord has won. And I'll talk to him under rising suns. His son rose and mine did too. I was coming down when I'm talking to you.

Because we're having an whole night revival. Some call the women and some will steal. Come on steal the Bible. For the sake of my survival. Baptize me in a bottle of beam with Johnny on a vinyl. The Bullwark podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brough.