The Bulwark Podcast - Sam Stein: Violence Is Not the Answer

Episode Date: July 14, 2024

In this bonus episode following the assassination attempt on Trump, The Bulwark's managing editor Sam Stein joins Tim Miller to discuss the precarious moment we are in, how to dial back the temperature, and how both parties should respond to the violence. show notes: Bill Maher on the shooting Rep. Andy Kim's response to the shooting

Hello and welcome to a bonus edition of the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host Tim Miller. I got today my newest colleague, our managing editor Sam Stein. We needed a grown-up newsman around here for days like this and I'm thrilled Sam agreed to take it on. How you doing buddy? I'm good. It's been kind of a tumultuous first two weeks at the Bulwark, but a good one. It has. This was not supposed to be our inaugural podcast together. No, it's not. We're cursed to live in interesting times. Lennon said that there are weeks where decades happen.

I'm kind of sick of those weeks. We've had a few of those lately. But I want to just start by getting the facts out of what we know about the shooting at the Trump rally in Butler, Pennsylvania yesterday. The rally was taking place about an hour north of Pittsburgh. A bullet grazed Trump's ear before he went down and was surrounded by Secret Service and then stood up. And I'm sure if you're listening, you've seen the pictures of him fist pumping and shouting, fight, fight, fight. One audience member is dead. Two more critically injured. The shooter, Thomas Matthew Crooks, age 20, of Bethel Park, Pennsylvania. He was on a rooftop about 150 yards from the rally. Not much is known about Crooks. As we tape,

he seems to be a rare 20-year-old with not much social media presence. Voter records show that he made a single $15 donation to a liberal PAC on Biden's inauguration day, but then registered as a Republican that September. So more reporting is going to be coming, I assume, on what exactly was the motivations that inspired this would-be assassin. So the FBI is calling it an assassination attempt on Trump's life. So with those facts, Sam, initial reactions, thoughts? Well, I mean, my first thought was probably like everyone's when they saw it come over the transit, which was just shocking.

You sort of do a double take when you see the first news clips. And for me, was um some tweet someone said like you know trump's being you know held down by secret service and then follow up on being rushed out and i just couldn't really process what it actually meant and then i signed on and then found out and my first reaction was just sort of like dumbfounded shock right and then you try to figure out what exactly is going on and then when it sort of seeps in and this this happened for me at least several minutes later, you begin to sort of think about, okay, if this is what we imagine it to be, what are the ripple effects of this?

And simply put, there's just like nothing good comes to this, obviously. It's horrifying, both the act itself and then to contemplate what follows the act. I was also mad, frankly, that something like this could happen. Mad that Secret Service apparently had some sort of terribly, unbelievably tragic lapse of protocol mad that anyone could possess a gun at that age and use it in this type of uh with this type of motive apparent motivation should use parent run everything and then sort of mad at the reaction too i mean not unexpected because i think our political system is kind of structured in a way that incentivizes pretty shitty reactions to these types of things but like just watching it

kind of transpire was a little bit disheartening too yeah i want to get into the reactions um but the there are other people to be mad at before you get to the reactions obviously mad at that at that kid i guess you can't call him a kid that young man who is creating a lot of a lot of problems that doesn't help anything violence doesn't help anything we've been living through a time of increased political violence you know we already had enough 1968 parallels with the convention conversation we've been having over the last two weeks and it does feel like we've been ported back to to 1968 in a lot of ways and upset also because it ties to the reactions post-Trump, but I also had a feeling of anger at all of the steps that have got us here and the lack of grownups in the room. And I think that there are a lot of people to blame on that. But, you know, look, I mean, we've been living in a time of increased political violence for a while now there's a scalese shooting in the baseball field in 17 obviously the attack at speaker pelosi's house january 6th kavanaugh and whitmer failed

plots against them i'm sure i'm forgetting out some trump giffords yeah giffords i guess that's kind of before the trump era but yeah giffords right but uh you know trump from the stage you know shouting it you know tell them knock the hell out of people and like we've had a long period where uh this has been happening and where you know people have continued to kind of stoke the anger on that so you know again was this guy radicalized by any specific thing like we don't know any of that yet but there have been a lot of opportunities for grownups to say, okay, like enough of this. And those opportunities have been missed. And they've been missed, you know, from people that are critics of Trump, but also people around Trump, you know, who have been stoking this sort of thing too.

Obviously, you know, we can only speak with like severe caution, right? We don't know the motivation. We just don't know enough to say why. Anybody that like starts randomly shooting people like has some level of mental health problems right i think it's like the reagan the reagan guy was trying to impress jody foster you know so like you can you can really get out over your skis on like what motivated this guy and then you find out that it's something totally weird but yeah there's a range psychopaths right like i think that's a i think we could objectively say that but But I do agree with, like, everything you said. And it's not because, you know, you invited me graciously onto the podcast.

But I feel like, you know, it's easy when you're in the moment to say, well, this is a really bad moment, right? Like, I'm sure, you know, if your parents or my parents came on, they'd be like, you know, the 60s were just, like, infinitely worse than this. And, like, we actually had, like, serious assassinations in ML and rfk and all that stuff and yeah granted but for me at least you know just sort of like living in the kind of instantaneous media bubbles that we exist in it's like when you watch it all play out and you see sort of the incentive structure for politicians to like play up this kind of like violent rhetoric and machismo stuff and like you know delegitimizing and stigmatizing their opponents in ways and it's like you can start to see like the ingredients in real time for this type of climate now i'm not saying the climate is directly associated with the shooting because we just don't know yet but like

the climate's bad like we can just objectively say the climate's not great. And I do think, frankly, we can be equivocal about it. We can say, well, one side is just as bad as the other. But I do think this is a Trump era phenomenon. I really do. He has capitalized on this in a way that no recent politician, at least in my mind, has done it. And he's done it successfully. And it's created a model for a lot of other people to replicate. And I think a lot of people have replicated it, frankly. And that, I do think, has happened somewhat on both sides. Yeah.

Well, no, and I think that, again, going back to the grown-ups, this is the thing that I think about all this. It's just like this stuff wasn't happening during the Obama-Romney campaign. No. The temperature of the water was just a lot lower. I remember the big Romney-Obama fight was over. Romney dabbled a tiny bit in birtherism, and people freaked out. Birtherism these days seems quaint, right?

It's totally different. One of the one ad that the one obama super pack ran that was pretty bad i kind of accused romney of of like being responsible for the deaths but like even so it's just like that kind of ad like wouldn't even really stand out now like the temperature has just got a lot hotter and there are very few people that have been in the arena that are saying wait a minute let's let's try to like dial this down a little bit right and obviously you know of course as the incitements to violence have happened on the right like you know we we had that after the january 6th moment like we had a period

of time where that was being condemned and like now you know the the people that stormed the capitol are hostages and heroes right so like again like they're like the entire water in which we're swimming in is just a lot hotter and that's why when i look at these reactions i want to shout out a couple a couple good ones and bad ones there's some colorado state rep that uh so so that we can be fair here that like you said this is the last thing we need a sympathy for the devil right now oh god i saw that one yeah that was bad my favorite was from andy kim i want to shout him out he's a democratic rep in new jersey running for senate it was very long so i'm only gonna read part of it but it's good. We'll put the link to his thread in the show notes. But he started here. When Lincoln was shot, he wore a coat embroidered with one country, one destiny. I've turned to

those four words to help me process this moment. This assassination attempt was one of the worst events I've seen in our democracy. It feels like we're on a country unmoored. It's not just that our divisions have grown so wide, but our willingness to allow contempt to accompany us. It's not just a disrespect that we see towards one another. It's a deeper disregard and disgust of one another. We're losing touch with the understanding that we're all part of something bigger than us. As those four words of Lincoln, one country, one destiny, remind us the commonality we

share runs deep and cannot be forgotten or dismissed. Choosing to unite instead of incite does not mean that we dismiss the magnitude of of our differences but it compels us to be cautious and precise about our next steps our words our actions in this unbelievably precarious moment we can just sit on that one for a second i don't know there's much to add to it but like for a politician that's good i mean that is that is thoughtful and and he's exactly right and i think that the precarious moment element of this is very important because we are in a very precarious moment. And we've been warning here and I've been kind of had a low level of ominous dread about

this period between now and the fall and, you know, how people feel about the selection. And I already had that sense of dread. And this has just exacerbated it to such a degree that we really need people to almost go overboard and kind of dialing it back for a bit. Andy Kim's an interesting guy, incredibly thoughtful congressman. I think the reason we're focusing on Andy right now is because he's rare. A lot of Democrats are saying the right thing. We should say that.

They're like saying that the bit of perfunctory. No, no, that's fair. That's rare. A lot of Democrats are saying the right thing. We should say that they're like saying that. No, no, that's fair. That's fair. But Andy's I think the reason I don't know why you picked it up. But my guess is the reason you picked it out is because there's a level of depth to it that I think you don't really often see with political reactions, or at least introspection to right. I totally agree with you. Like, we need to sort of, you know, the cliches call are better, better angels. But like, what does it actually look like in this current climate? I saw someone propose that Biden and Trump do a joint press conference. That's never going to happen. actually exists right because when i was thinking about this last night when i was trying to muster up some sort of story for the bulwark i kept coming back to this idea that like it's actually scarier now right like like what happens the sort of unknowns of the next week or two are like what actually really do frighten me and and i guess the question for you tim is like okay what can andy kim do to like achieve what he wants here the democrats are going to have to figure out, and by the Democrats, I mean the politicians,

but also media that Democratic and left-wing consumers watch. I have to figure out how to talk about this in a way that does not exacerbate people's rage at the other side, right? And talk about it in a way that says, hey, you know, what I liked about the Andy Kim statement is that you do not have to diminish the differences, right, between the two sides. You don't have to dismiss the magnitude of the differences. You don't have to all of a sudden say, oh, Donald Trump is not, you know, proposing, does not have soft authoritarian aspirations based on his proposals. You don't have to stop saying that. But it now has to be, you know, delivered within

the context of, you know, kind of a more Obama-in spirit. It's like out of date now. I was just thinking that. Yeah. Like, it sounds Obama-ish. Yeah. You have to figure out how to way to do that. It's complicated. It's hard, you know, to express disagreement with the other side without the disdain. And Democrats and left-wing media folks have to do that. And that's, you know, that's going to be challenging, I think. Well, that's the thing. I've been watching a lot of Democrats this morning and last night sort of grapple with

this, like, tension point that you're getting at, which bluntly is they do think trump's a threat to democracy well some of them do i guess according to ezra clients maybe putting aside as resources some of them do think and um how do you properly portray that threat how do you communicate around that threat while being very cognizant of the fact that people could, you know, take what you're saying and become sort of radicalized by it, for lack of a better word. And I guess the thing that was happening last night and this morning was like, you know, obviously a lot of Republicans were very angry at Democrats for portraying Trump this way and saying that that had been sort of the stew from which this guy, this 20 old kid man young man acted first of all we don't know his motivation so i thought that was wildly

premature but like secondly i guess the question is like okay well if you what do you what are you supposed to do like how do you talk about trump and democracy if you legitimately believe he's a threat people do need to legitimately you know some of the stuff like scott jennings was on cnn being like this is your fault for saying it's a threat to marx it's like okay well he he incited an attack on the capitol right so like you have to talk about that like that existed that happened and then the republicans re-nominated him like on the list of people that i'm upset at includes the republican senators that didn't convict him you know because that was an opportunity to turn down the temperature in this country when you convicted the guy for something that he was rightly impeached for an insurrection against the country so i think that it wouldn't stop our problem with guns in this country it

wouldn't stop the problem with the randomly mentally ill people like there still could be random assassination attempts but the stew that we're in would be different if this was you know whatever ron desantis versus kamala harris it just like it just would be and like that was the adult thing to do and they didn't do it and this is how it ties i think that what the democrats have to do is figure out how to present as attempting to which is like in the spirit of what joe biden actually did try to do most of the time when he's president like attempting to take down the temperature attempting to be grown-ups attempting to work with the other side and saying we're here to solve problems like we're not here you know to incite a civil war like that's not what we're doing. And I think that this Republican reaction to that,

to the extent that there's a chance to, you know, once the dust settles offers, offer a little bit of contrast, like shows how that might be possible. You have Mike Collins from Georgia, Republican saying Joe Biden sent the orders, obviously, deeply irresponsible and based on nothing. J.D. Vance, the leading candidate, presumed to be Trump's VP. You never know with Trump. But he wrote, today is not just some isolated incident. The central premise of the Biden campaign is Trump is an authoritarian fascist who must be stopped at all costs.

That rhetoric led directly to Trump's attempted assassination. And now we head into a convention where obviously, you know, the speakers are going to be, you know, doing some bloody shirt waving, I think, which that wasn't the case, but I think that that seems very likely. So I don't think that there's a ton of hope that the Republican response to this is going to be to turn down the temperature. And so I think that the question is whether there's a thermostatic response to that on the left or whether you know it's an opportunity to try to present something that's that's more in the in the broader tradition you you could tell by the way your voice intonation kind of trailed off there that you're very low for that again i once said people would ask me on these stupid panels saying i'll let you reply but i'm going to now reply to your to your reply to my uh skeptical intonation yeah on these panels we've

always like what what's it going to take to chill this out like it's a very popular question that i get all the time yeah yeah and like my answer before 2020 was like really like we need a serious you know outside event to shake everybody up and realize it's time to be grown-ups again and like this was all kind of frivolous some of this partisan infighting and then covid happened and a million people died and like it got a million times worse so i no longer have any hope that outside events are going to help you know kind of calm you know the increasing yeah i get that question a lot and i basically like i don't think there's i don't know it's it's very hard to imagine a combination of factors that can give us the type of more utopian political system that we all hope for this is why i was

nervous last night because like the next week you couldn't ask for like a worse set of like events to happen the week after this right like the convention is not the place for dialing the rhetoric down dialing the rhetoric down it's like you're not gonna get get a convention that's like 2004 Barack Obama. It's just not going to happen. And the Vance tweet specifically to me was a huge warning sign. That guy's got whatever you think of J.D. Vance. The guy has his thumb on the pulse of the MAGA movement. He knows where the whether it is he's

he's playing to it all the time he's smart and for him to just jump to that to me was not just a signal of where everyone is but like it was like a signal for everyone to get there and I think next week's just going to be absolute unfortunately I worry it's going to be bedlam and like I think that um what's interesting here and I don't have any real hope for it, is Trump could play a role. I mean, he could. In a normal universe, Trump could come out today and be like, say something that's Trumpian, but also tries to get the rhetoric a little bit down.

But I'm not hopeful for it. Biden came out last night. I thought it was fine. Like he's not going to say, he's not going to say too much because he never gets ahead of things. He doesn't want to speculate. But look, I think this is where the worry around Biden's capacities as a candidate and as a president, this is where they're manifested, right? Like, I feel like the old Joe Biden four or five years ago would have like given us a real stem winder of a speech that like called to like, you know, people to come together and like made all those sort of rhetorical points. Like, he'll do it.

But I just don't think I think people think of him in a more diminished way now. And I don't think it's going to have as much resonance. And frankly, I just don't see any way this kind of gets toned down at all before the election. No, I mean, and you're in this environment. And I guess I will say Trump has sent a couple bleats I don't have in front of me. And they I mean, and you're in this environment. And I guess I will say Trump has sent a couple bleats I don't have in front of me. And they were not as bad as it could have been. I totally agree with that. I read them very nervously. And I was like, oh, it's not so bad. And so, you know, we go to the convention, we see see what happens.

We shouldn't have lower expectations for Trump, like any normal politician who went through this, I just look at what Steve Scully said, what Gabby Gifford said, what, you know, other victims of political violence who survived, what Reagan said. And there's a great thing from Reagan's diary going around that he wrote about how he was praying for Hinckley. And so, you know, there is a bar that you would expect for a responsibility bar. You know, it's hard to kind of see that happening at the RNC convention this week. I'd love to be surprised because to your point, if we end up in a situation where just like the reality of the situation is one side is saying they tried to kill our leader, like they tried to assassinate him because they hate you. And the other side is saying

he is going to end the republic as we know it. I had Elizabeth Newman, my friend, the domestic extremism on about de-escalating a couple of months ago on this podcast. Like it doesn't take Elizabeth Newman to know that that is an environment that is ripe for additional violence. And that's something we got to be really, I think, deeply concerned about. Oh, 100%. I'm going to Milwaukee. It's going to be safe. Yeah. I mean, I don't want to be, I don't want to milwaukee it's going to be be safe yeah i mean i i'm i don't want to be i don't want to joke about it like i'm nervous a little bit yeah

i'm going to chicago and that's going to be incredibly chaotic too for the democratic convention yeah and also i this is sort of a secondary point but like if you're like a smart thoughtful human being who's thinking about like a career in public service and you like kind of just want to like you know be normal and like create normal friendships and working partnerships and shit like why the fuck would you want to go into this line of business at this point this is nuts like this is not fun people here are not normal it's it's insane i've said this for a while while particularly on the republican side i think it's going to start having on the democratic side there's a supply and demand to this like if there's not a good supply of candidates it's

hard to have good leaders right and like well that you read andy kim i want to do the political implications i just want to you know just say at the beginning of this this attempted assassination happened less than 24 hours ago that's a weird sentence to say out loud and so like we don't know shit all right like there's certain things that we know and i want to focus on things that we that we know and um you know we'll take it from there so there's new polling this this morning cbs had trump winning by two points essentially in every swing state nbc had Trump winning by two points, essentially, in every swing state. NBC had Trump winning by two points nationally unchanged from April. So we have a static race still.

To me, I think the most obvious thing to think about, you know, again, who knows how this looks in November, but right now we're going to be looking at a period where the enthusiasm, they talk about enthusiasm gap sometimes between the two parties. There's going to be an enthusiasm chasm between a Republican party that feels like they need to get righteous vengeance on behalf of Trump and a Democratic party that is currently unsure if they have confidence in their candidate to even do the job. You know, I think that is something that we can talk about that we know is going to be is an issue as uh as we head into the fall like much more than a way than some people are like now trump has won and it's like i don't you know i don't know how many swing voters are changing their vote based on based on this like we'll learn from polls and focus groups the next few weeks but the enthusiasm thing i think we know is an outgrowth of this at

least for for now so like look i i think to like basically be like the election's over first of all i think you should hold off a little bit and and kind of reassess like how you view the world because not everything is strictly about electoral politics that being said i think you're right that like the enthusiasm stuff has already been incredibly pronounced you You see it in every poll. This is obviously both a byproduct of Trump rallying his people prior even to this, and then also of Joe Biden. Just, I mean, every single poll since the debate, but prior to the debate was Democratic enthusiasm was incredibly low, historically low. This just is going to feed into that.

I think the post-convention bump will be pretty big. I think it will spark another wave of panic about Biden and his ability to win the election, which will then cause more Democratic infighting around whether Biden should be on the ticket. And then it's just going to go round and round and round. That said, when you read the polls like everything about this race has been static. I forget who it was. Maybe it was Frank Luntz or something like that. It's like,

you know, we'll, we'll just come back to this place where it jumps up to this. I mean, this is one of those things where a lot of people after the debate were like expecting Biden to tank. And when he didn't, they're like,

Hey, see, you were wrong. I'm like, I never accepted by the tech. We're in a very, we're very polarized country. And,

and there are a lot of people out there there already were before the debate and now there are more who say they don't approve of joe biden but they're voting for him anyway so you know what i mean like that's a common that's common element so i you know like this is why i also just want to caution trying to look into a crystal ball i said this a bunch in the last two weeks it's almost it's almost like eye rolly to say like we're in unprecedented fucking times like this is very unusual like we yeah we do not have there's no you can't look back at past campaigns and you know there's somebody online i figured it was i was like teddy roosevelt in 1912 when he was

shot and said you can't kill a bull moose and then somebody else replied they're like woodrow wilson won that election so like you know okay like we just don't that we're in unprecedented times and so we don't really know and i can imagine a scenario where in some ways like having a very rabid convention so i'm even skeptical of your bounce i just i'm just saying we don't know i'm just saying we don't know all i'm saying like i could possibly see again i think the enthusiasm and and people who maybe had been soft trump supporters being thrust into his arms i think that feels certainly that's happening the response among this small these the double haters like these small groups like they might see a really rabid mega

base and be like oh man that's that's a little scary you know what i mean like we just don't exactly know tim the the more interesting question is not like for me and i'm curious what you think more interesting question is not like what trump and republicans do this i think we sort of know how they're they're going to rally around him we get that and we and we generally think that the convention is going to be more like as you you said, righteous vengeance for Trump, right? I think the more interesting question is like, how, if you're a Democrat, if you're in the Biden campaign, what you do about this, right? Like, first of all, you got these persistent problems with your party, right? They're not going away. Maybe this dulls the conversation,

obviously dulls the conversation. But, it dulls the conversation. But I don't know. What do you do? Do you try to play up the Obama-Sorca 2004 rhetoric? Is that the play? Do you lay low? I don't know. If Biden could do that, yeah, I would say that this is the moment for the red states and blue states speech. But I don't think that's in his bag of tricks at this point. Right. So, yeah, I mean i that's what i would like to see from the democrats i i think that you need to figure out a way to message that this election remains critically important it remains passionate but we need to have leaders that you know govern for the whole country and that's what joe biden tried to do. And that Joe Biden, there's a reason why there's a ton of new investment going into red states and go and

campaign in those areas and try to demonstrate that they're concerned about the policy proposals that are in Project 2025, but still want to be the ones that unite the country. And while the other side is probably what we expect doing a lot more of what J.D. Vance is doing and trying to stoke more tension. That's really tough. It's tough to pull out. It was right in Obama's wheelhouse to do this. Is it in Joe Biden and Kamala Harris's? I don't know. We can see. Is it in some of the other speakers that speak at the convention, at the Dem convention in a month? Maybe. There'd be some people that think, no, the right thing to do is that the Democrats should fight fire with fire on this

and like blame Trump for the rhetoric. And I don't know that victim blaming is the answer here. And I think that that is both politically and practically a dubious path. So I think that the trying to take the air out and be the grownups and be the ones that care i mean there was people told me at the beginning of this race that the biden message was going to be he cares about people like you while trump cares about himself they didn't execute that

message they haven't yet they tried they tried it just didn't they didn't continue on yeah but that seems like the best one yeah but trying to focus on the first part of that that seems like a smart idea it's just again to our point that we keep coming back to it's like one it's not clear that biden can do but two like i'm maybe i'm letting him off the hook a little too much here but like does the incentive structure does the media ecosystem exist for that to even matter materially like you know yeah i just don't know me neither i think the acting like that it's not a very complicated question and a big challenge you know would be trying to pull the wool over people's eyes like i just i think that there's no doubt that this complicates the democrats already complicated messaging this fall i don't think that that means that trump definitely won

but like i i think that i think you just have to be clear-eyed about this is minor relative to the larger message, but there is something that, and I know this is something to your heart, but guns, right? 20-year-old owning an AR is like, I don't know, maybe that could be part of the messaging here. It's like, maybe these guns should not be in the hands of 20-year-olds.

Yeah, I think so, man. I've been banging the drum on Democrats talking about this for a while. I think it's mostly a consensus issue. I don't think people drum on Democrats talking about this for a while. I think it's a mostly a consensus issue. I don't think people want 20 year old state 18 year olds, high school and college kids to have ARs unless they are professional, you know, police or in the military or like at a gun range, and it's a locked gun. I don't think that's an extreme view. I think that's a winning view. Once again, we have a 20 year old that does this 20 year old boys shouldn't like be able to like fire off fucking eight rounds in under a minute you know like that's just it's not it's not smart it's not practical and i think the best part

of what biden said at the press conference the other day was was talking about how the republicans want to control girls not guns is that the one message that's going to win them the election or whatever no but i do think it's something that they should talk about and they can talk about it and like uh like okay you know what are some practical things like we want this to stop what are some practical things can happen we said at the top like this was a secret service disaster you know richie torres a democrat was was tweeting about this like it is you know i think that there should be a review what the system is we want our political opponents to be protected there's no place for violence we also don't think that that teenagers should have you know assault rifles like i think that those are absolutely good things to talk about yeah and they tried to do they tried i think to

have this as a component of the bill that that they did end up passing is a strip from the bill but like it's it is crazy it's just crazy i mean i and it's you say you think it's a consensus issue it is a concern i mean if you trust the polls it's a huge consensus issue again i i i'm with you again i don't i don't think it's like going to be the predominant message from this nor probably should it be because i think there's huge questions about discourse and and how we're conducting our politics. But I think it has to be in the mix. You've got to talk about the troubled 20-year-old, often white men, not always, often white men, having easy access to ARs is nuts to me.

And there's got to be at least an attempt to try to limit that. This isn't even happening other places. I mean, when we have these gun debates after mass shootings, you know, a lot of times the pro-gun crowd will say, will be like, oh, the Democrats are exaggerating the amount of mass shootings there are. Like when every town puts out the list of mass shootings, because, for example, this assassination attempt wouldn't even count on the mass shooting list. Right. So it's like only one person died. Right. So, you know what I mean? this assassination attempt like wouldn't even count on on the mass shooting list right because it's like only one person died right so you know what i mean i say like that's how crazy we are like that we're in the situation where this is happening where you know it is oftentimes these young men that have access to these weapons and like it is crazier than ben i think the democrats

that is one thing democrats can talk about i think in good conscience and not feel like they're having to tiptoe around some of these other issues that are more complicated. I do. I want to close with just one thing. I just got to say it. People come to this podcast to hear what I'm really thinking about. And I can't just I just can't pretend like I'm not thinking about this.

Bill Maher did a little riff on this last night, too. He posted on social media. Like Trump is like the luckiest son of a bitch in the world like it's really unbelievable you can't say that i can't it's isn't it unbelievable no like you know i'm not lucky to be almost assassinated no it's not lucky no it's not i mean i i guess i don't know man it's just i think that the way that things have conspired in his favor a lot of times just does boggle the mind. I will say up until, up until the assassination, up until 705 or whatever time it was. Yeah, no, I mean, like, look, I think up until this point, because I don't think you can

say that's lucky. I mean, I mean, obviously, it's fortunate that it that bullet was not one inch over. I mean, that would have been obviously horrifying. And just like, just really quick, I've wagged my finger at J.D. Vance. And I've seen from fucking terrible posts from people on the left about that. Like, oh, if he had only been a better shooter or one inch more. Like, what would have happened in this country? Like, whatever you think about Donald Trump, what would have happened in this country had Donald Trump been assassinated? Like, A, it's horrible.

Violence is never the answer. Like it's already horrible for Trump and his family. But then the fallout, like anybody who says that is like has the vision of somebody that like cannot like look more than one inch in front of their nose and like emote. Yes, I think that that's disgusting. I feel like that reaction is both inhumane, like it's hard to describe it as anything other than that, but also like it would have set us in an incredibly dangerous path. We're already on a very, very dangerous path. It's hard to even comprehend the reaction to what would have happened if the assassin, it would beinated had succeeded. Now, look, I think to your earlier point about Trump's luck, like, yes, you know, he, if we'd sat here on January 7th, 2021, and told you that like, one, you know, he would have become the Republican nominee without basically lifting a finger. He didn't do anything. He didn't do any debates. The impeachment efforts would have fizzled.

The prosecution efforts would have fizzled. The prosecution efforts would have fizzled. The Supreme Court would have given him immunity. He would have ended up with Joe Biden having incredibly problematic moments in a debate like that. He'd be on the front page of the New York Times with a raised fist and an American flag and a bloody ear. And having gone through all this, it's like there's something surreal about it, obviously, and there's something weirdly cinematic about it, too, in a scary cinema way. It's like, how is this our world? It feels unreal.

It does feel a little unreal. And when you're covering it, too, it's like, I told someone this. Who did I tell? Someone at the Bulwark, when they were talking about it, I was like, look, when I started political reporting, it was the 2008 democratic primary. It was Hillary versus Obama. And I remember commenting to someone on the trail.

I was like, it will never get crazier than this. Like this is the craziest shit ever. And it's only gotten crazier. It's like, it just gets crazier and crazier and crazier minus Romney Obama. That was very normal. And I feel like we're not even at the top of the mountain yet, like of the craziness. Hopefully not knocking on wood, praying if you pray, but, uh, we, uh, we have an ugly few months ahead of us. Uh, Sam Stein, thanks for doing this. I felt it was important to get our initial reactions out to folks and, uh, you know, uh, these things are going to continue to develop

and we'll be talking about it all week. I've got Bill Kristol on the podcast tomorrow. Appreciate Sam, who is outside at his in-law's house with children upstairs doing the podcast work. So I appreciate it, brother. Thanks, Tim. We'll see you all tomorrow with Bill Kristol. Peace.

There's something happening here But what it is ain't exactly clear tomorrow with Bill Crystal. Peace. I think it's time we stop, children, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going down. There's battle lines being drawn. Nobody's right if everybody's wrong. Young people speak in their minds, are getting so much resistance from behind. What a field day for the heat A thousand people in the street Singing songs and carrying signs Mostly say hooray for our side

It's time we stop Hey, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going on Paranoia strikes deep Into your life it will creep It starts when you're always afraid Step out of line, the man come And take you away

We better stop, hey, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going on We better stop. Hey, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going on. We better stop. Hey, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going on. We better stop now. What's that sound? Everybody look what's going on.

We better stop. What's that sound? The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.