The Bulwark Podcast - Sarah Longwell and A.B. Stoddard: Won't Get Fooled Again

Episode Date: May 24, 2024

First off, Nikki, you're canceled. And while Trump's out on bail flaunting his partnership with Putin and showcasing two men charged with murder, too many members of the media are covering 2024 like it's a normal campaign. Plus, Ted Cruz gets owned, Alito has too many flags, and Dems keep sending progressive DAs packing. show notes: Kaitlin Colllins' full exchange with Cruz on accepting election results Tim's interview with SF DA Brooke Jenkins Tim's playlist

Landlord telling you to just put on another sweater when your apartment is below 21 degrees? Are they suggesting you can just put a bucket under a leak in your ceiling? That's not good enough. Your Toronto apartment should be safe and well-maintained. If it isn't and your landlord isn't responding to maintenance requests, RentSafeTO can help. Learn more at toronto.ca slash RentSafeTO. It might seem like the 2024 U.S. presidential election is happening in a vacuum, but it will have global repercussions. All of America's allies are thinking very, very hard about how they should reconfigure themselves in case an isolationist president is in the White House. Swamp Notes from the Financial

Times brings you insights on the race through an international lens. You can listen to Swamp Notes on the FT News Briefing podcast every Saturday. Hey, everybody, I wanted to update you on the Colorado event in my hometown. Remember earlier this week when I said that the event might sell out and you should get your tickets fast? Well, it did sell out and I'm glad you got your tickets fast because now we're moving to a bigger venue. We're hitting the big time here at the Bulwark. So if you did not get your tickets or if you're on the wait list, go to the bulwark.com slash events and you can get your tickets now. I think the bigger venue might sell out too. So you should get on it. It is June 21st in Denver. There won't be a basketball parade,

but we'll still have a good time. I'm going to be interviewing Governor Polis and then we'll be taping the next level with me and Sarah and JVL. After that, we might have some other stuff for you. So it should be a fun evening in Mile High City. Beautiful in June in Denver. Hope you come and see us then it's the

bulwark.com slash events get your tickets now up next our friend ab stoddard with a bonus appearance from publisher of the bulwark sarah longwell see on the other side hello and welcome to the bulwark podcast i'm'm your host Tim Miller. It's Memorial Day weekend. You can sense the American carnage out there. Record travel numbers at all of the airports. More people traveling than any time in history. So take a little extra time for security lines if you're headed to the beach. I'm delighted to be here. Memorial Day weekend is for the girls. I've got my colleague Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark, A.B. Stoddard, columnist at The Bulwark. Thanks for being here, guys. Great to be with you. What's up, Timmy? What's up? So I had two overwhelming pieces of

listener feedback over the last 36 hours. The first, people were dying to know how Sarah was emotionally processing the Nikki Haley betrayal. So we've added her to the first segment of this podcast. I told you AB would be here. But before that, I do have to come in on the second piece of feedback I've been receiving about how I'm a moron. So I don't know. Do you all know the difference between immigrate and emigrate?

Isn't immigrating come here? Wait, no. I don't know. That's what I thought it was. Oh, that's making me feel better. Pop quiz. Go ahead, AB. Come on, spit it out.

No, now I'm hesitating. I thought you emigrated out and you immigrated in. A.B. is a woman of the world. That's what I thought. No, that's what Sierra was suggesting. Okay. Well, you both had it correct then. As usual, my colleagues are my betters.

My listeners are my betters. Here's the thing. I come from a long line of Hoosiers from South St. Louis. All right? Like, when we moved to Denver, they thought we were getting pretty, you know, they thought we were getting pretty international. They're like, oh, my God. You're in a different time zone.

You're leaving Missouri. You know, so we didn't talk a lot about emigrating. I didn't know any expats. And I always thought emigrating was kind of like the fancy, just like the fancy word for emigrating. With an E. always thought emigrating was kind of like the fancy just like the fancy word for it with an e and so um many listeners told me that i was an idiot over that and i appreciate i love that we have smart listeners you know i can bring up like mrna vaccines or something they'll get an email from somebody that's like i was the one that researched the mrna vaccine so we have great

smart listeners i appreciate that i appreciated the first two or three people who corrected me the 712th person that corrected me i was a little less excited about, but such is life. Nikki Haley, this happened on Wednesday afternoon. So you've had now two nights to sleep on it. She said about Trump, he's totally unhinged, not qualified, doesn't deserve a driver's license, wants to be the king, is disgusting. Everything he has said has been a lie. She's voting for him. Sarah, we want to know how you're feeling about that. Talk to us about your emotional journey with Nikki Haley's betrayal, predictable betrayal, but a betrayal nonetheless.

Yeah, I mean, I'm in my feelings, guys. I'm not gonna lie. I am. And it's my own fault. I understand like every time. Because here's what happens. I've watched Nikki Haley and sometimes at live shows, I'll talk about how there's nobody I'm more disappointed in. You're like, on your list of people you're most disappointed in, and this is even before. I would say Nikki Haley. And now, part of what people have to understand about me is how much I had invested back in my Republican days in the idea that Nikki Haley was the future of the Republican Party. And this is the Nikki Haley that took down the Confederate flag. This is the Nikki Haley that talks about immigrating, not immigrant, immigrating, her family immigrating here. And so she talks about America with an

immigrant zeal, which I always love. My mom came here now from England, but like there's something about somebody comes here like as a teenager, right? And they see America through the eyes of coming from a different place. And like, as a result, my house is covered with sort of like Americana, like over the mantle, the founding fathers are signing things. And I grew up with that. And there's this old picture and it's not, it's not that old, but there's this picture of Marco Rubio, Tim Scott, and Nikki Haley from the 2016 primary. And I remember just deeply thinking like, that's the

future, guys. Like there's going to be a socially moderate, sort of economically sensible, but free market American leadership in the world party that's going to look different 15 years from now. And I want to be part of that party. And so Nikki Haley's just always held a special place for me. I always thought she'd be the first woman president. She also thought that. I know. I know. And watching her debase herself through the Trump years was extremely hard. But I remember when she stepped down as UN ambassador, I walked out of my office and shouted to everybody in earshot, Nikki Haley's quitting. She's going to primary Donald Trump. This is great. And I've

been wrong about Nikki Haley every time. But here's the thing that happened in the primary. I knew better. But still, at some point in the primary- She sucked you back in. It just sounded like she meant it. It sounded like she'd found her moment, start telling the truth, and she felt good about it, and people were responding to it. And she was going so far out there in what she was saying. He'll side with Putin, who's a madman. He is unfit to be the president. And you're like, well, this is not saying you don't like his tax policy. This isn't saying he's too old.

This isn't just saying he'll lose. These are like hard to walk back. Now, obviously I heard her the whole time kind of slip in there that Biden was worse, which is. That wasn't a clue. That was a little clue. No, it's a clue. I knew. I knew what was happening. I just kind of thought she might withhold the endorsement. And part of what is like extremely shocking to me about how she did it is after saying that Trump was going to have to come and sort of, you know, earn her vote and her supporters vote, he did no such thing. In fact, I'm not sure he did anything but treat her like garbage continually. Certainly didn't reach out to these voters. She was not a movement leader. Oh, look, I've been on my media grievance tour

here about Nikki. And I just do want to say that I think more than anything, she was an avatar for people's anti-Trump sentiment. Like that is what she was showing up on the ballot as a place for people to put their votes without feeling sick to their stomach to register their anti-Trump feelings. And those people I think will still vote against Trump, but I don't want to undersell. I think it matters that she came out and endorsed him because we are going through a moment right now

of a bunch of Republicans coming to terms with the fact that they've got to say somehow they've got to like fake the idea that Joe Biden is worse than the coup guy. Yeah, I want to get into the political thoughts and kind of analyzing the quote unquote Haley voter next. But AB, just Nikki Haley, the person I assume you have a darker, you had a darker view. Maybe now you also were hoping I'm sorry, but on Tuesdayuesday the bulwark published a piece called can nicky haley do the right thing that i wrote and i said in the staff meeting i just have to tell you i didn't read it okay so i did think i was wrong about emigrating but i was right about

nicky because i saw that headline okay nope better just law nope if a headline ends in a question the answer is no right and so like sarah I feel like really sheepish and miserable that she kicked my teeth in. Okay. So I said in the staff meeting on Monday, I'm willing to be fooled by her this one last time. And this is what I'm filing tonight. So I wrote about how, like Sarah, I believed that she could do Mike Pence and not Liz Cheney. That what she had said in the campaign, you could not walk back.

And she couldn't walk back. And she really meant it. And as a daughter of immigrants and a military spouse, after everything she has said, that Donald Trump, after mocking veterans, shouldn't have a driver's license, let alone be commander in chief, that she would do the Mike Pence thing. She had said enough about Biden being horrible that I knew she wouldn't endorse him. But I said it would be so powerful if she just didn't endorse Trump because it would say to her followers, he is unacceptable and I'm just going to retreat. Of course, it would mean MAGA

banishment, but it would be brave. And it sounded like the thing that she had finally, finally, finally gotten to after vacillating so many times in such a greasy way, right, since 2016. Remember what Sarah describes, if we sat right now and watched that video on stage of Marco and Tim Scott and Nikki Haley talking about the danger of Trump, we wouldn't be able to eat the rest of this holiday weekend. And so in that same Tim Alberta, that famous piece, Nikki Haley's Time for Choosing, she both does the, I want you to know that he believes that he won. So I guess he meets up with her in like December. So he's actively engaged in a coup, but she's doing that.

What's the harm if we just amuse him a few more weeks? Then after January 6th, she says, we went down a path with him. We must never repeat. It was a mistake and we must never do this again. And then she was gonna not run if he ran and then she ran. Anyway, so she's disappointed us so many times.

She's gut punched us. This is not the first time. And she had all the promise that Sarah describes. Not only for me, just personally, I would have liked another day before she did it after my piece ran. I mean, maybe even a month. That was just a little much. She didn't have to do it on May 22nd. Okay, she did not have to. And as you guys have noted, both in your response to him and Sarah's, she did it for nothing. So she didn't get any, you know, appreciation of her candidacy and her positions, her Reagan republicanism from Trump, or Trump surrogates, her voters, you know, are still permanently barred, or the people that send her money, right? So

she gives it away for free. It was so much worse than I imagined. In my piece, I said, what I do expect from her is that she'll give a diluted endorsement of Trump that telegraphs to her supporters that she wants to be viable in 28 or 32. I did not expect her to do it in this most shameful, most piteous way. So I have also been going through some physical and mental things since Wednesday. Okay, well, if you guys want to give each other an e-hug. I do. I feel your pain. Wait, did you see that Trump did truth bleat this morning about how they ran a really tough campaign against each other, but there would be space for Nikki Haley in his administration or whatever. So what he did, it seems like to me, the choreography of this was like, they give her nothing, she sucks up and goes and endorses him.

And then they're like, okay, you can be part of this. I think that usually I'm pretty good at seeing when somebody is just bereft of character. And obviously that Nikki Haley's flip-flopping around betrayed a weakness inside of her. Like, I'll never forget, A.B. just referenced this when she said, well, I'll run for president, but first I'd check with Trump. I'd just, you'd just make sure, clear it with him. And I remember I, on that day, was so disgusted with her. But part of it is that I want to make space for everybody to have their break glass moment on Trump and to walk away. We could all sit around and be like, it took you long enough. And look, do I feel that on my insides? Sure I do. But more than anything, I want there to be space for people to be able to walk away. And I, do I feel that on my insides? Sure I do. But more than anything, I want there

to be space for people to be able to walk away. And I guess I thought she could be headed in that direction and to see her do the about face. And also just another thing that was in the news that I think is sort of why it's right now is she did this donor huddle recently. And I think it is part of a broader thing that's happening among Republicans right now in the donor class and everywhere else where everyone's like, guys, we don't like it. Sure. It's bad. Sure. He's unhinged, but like, let's focus on getting a good VP in there and maybe Trump will choke on a cheeseburger later and we'll all get what we want. Took us a weird path to get to the Marco Rubio, Nikki Haley world we wanted, but we'll get there by doing it this way. Like they're talking themselves all together into something that I think is delusional because they still

don't understand their voters. But sure, whatever, that's what's happening. The Tim Alberta piece also ends up not actually aging that well. Love Tim Alberta, not his fault, but it wasn't her time for choosing. The whole way that she did this was about can kicking. It's related to what you're saying, right? It's like, I'm not going to be forced to choose right now between MAGA and not MAGA, Trump bad, Trump good, because who knows, right? Like, who knows? He could die. I could get picked. I'm young. You know, I'm 30 years younger than these two guys. Something could happen in 12 years. And if I endorse Biden, it's over. I'm Liz Cheney, and I'm sad. And if I just do this kind of half-hearted trump thing

that at least i'm still there and my time for choosing could be down the line right like this choice i think that that mindset which is being pushed on her by those donors and the people in her social circle i think is what explains us one more thing on the nikki character that i do have to get off my chest um and i think gave me a little advantage over both of you on assessing her character is, you know, here's the thing. Nikki was also one of the few people who was pretty clear eyed all the way through 2016. In the fall of 2016, she was like when a lot of other people started to backtrack and backpedal, like she didn't really, she was pretty clear. And when Trump invited her to be UN ambassador, invite her up to New York, this kind of hit the cutting room floor of my book that I was friends with her closest,

two of her three closest advisors. And they were like, what? Like when she told them that they were going, that she was going up to meet with him about a job, they were both just flabbergasted by that. And then she went and did it. And then she took the job. And then she was like, okay, are you going to come with me? They both said said no and neither of these people did the big never trump cable tv thing like like some of us did and so they're not like they don't get faint they're not famous for their never trumpism but she treated them like shit like treated them like shit after that and like said nope sorry you're not on board you're not on board and at a personal level and i was just like nope that's this person like this person is gonna gonna try to figure out what the best calculus is for her and everybody else be damned. So anyway, F you Nikki, the question of the Haley voters before we lose you, Sarah,

I want to get your take on, on that and like this impact on that, that group that we've been talking about a lot. Yeah. So like I said, I think that Nikki Haley, for the most part, like the biggest part of her coalition were people for whom she was an avatar for their anti-Trump sentiment, right? Okay. So I think that on balance, the people showing up to her rallies, they were more anti-Trump than she ultimately turned out to be. So I don't think she was a movement leader. I think that we call them Nikki Haley voters because they objectively voted for Nikki Haley, but I don't think they're Nikki Haley voters as though Nikki Haley is their person, their leader, and they follow her where she goes. I actually think the most damage the Nikki Haley thing does is I think she becomes part of a

broader constructed narrative that is this fait accompli idea, right, of Joe Biden's worse. He's just obviously worse. And that's what the Wall Street Journal set is going to, like, I think she's going to have a much bigger effect on the elite Republicans. And also, you know, I've been thinking a lot about how you do shift things for Biden. And one of the ways is to have people who worked for Trump, some of the generals, Mitt Romney, all kinds of people like that come out and say, no, I'm going to vote for Biden, or I'm certainly not going to vote for Trump. He's too dangerous. The coalescing around the idea that they're all going to get on board damages the ability to get other people to come

and speak out, right? Like you look at a Jeff Duncan coming out and you're like, okay, that's good. That's one in the column of, no, I'm going to vote for Biden. Trump's an existential threat. I'm not going to vote for him. He starts to build some momentum in that direction for other Republicans to come out and say the same.

She just like blunted that so hard and makes it harder for other people to do the same. So that's what I think the biggest thing is. And I think that has an overall impact as we go along of the rationalizations people tell themselves when they're part of this double hater coalition, but they're Republicans, they're right-leaning independents, they're soft GOP voters. What is it that they tell themselves to get themselves there on Trump? And I just think Nikki Haley is part of now building that bigger,

higher narrative permission structure, and that's not good. Yeah, I agree with most of that. AB., do you have any thoughts on that? I agree. And I'm nervous that there are a bunch of them, in terms of the timing, because of Israel, that were already teeter-tottering on whether or not Biden is a catastrophe. And this, just like Sarah describes, gives them an excuse. And so it is frustrating. I will be interested to see if there are any donors that say hell no. Haley donors. I know for sure there are some. Good, good. And won't be talked into supporting Trump. That's important. But she's just a fool. Just to watch the 30 tweets that she released as she was at the Hudson event, all of them describing basically President Biden, you know,

stand with our allies, right? Confront our enemies. It was just absolutely beyond comprehension. And I'm so glad that the very next day, Trump posted that thing about Evan Gershkowitz and how he and Putin are on the phone and like they're going to make this plan together. It was the only thing that made me feel a little better about Haley. Yeah, embarrassing. I'm going to be with somebody that stands with our allies. Okay. We're going to talk about the Evan Gershkowitz bleed on the other side. We got to let Sarah go. Sarah's doing the secret podcast every Friday. So if you want bonus Sarah, unleashed Sarah, unshackled Sarah and JVL. And you are not a Bulwark Plus member.

Go to thebulwark.com slash free trial. You can test it out for 30 days. You can hear more of Sarah ranting about her feelings here as the morning goes on. Thanks, Sarah, for jumping on. Thanks, guys. Have a good show. I'll see you. all right we're back we've got much to do in the in the brief interlude green room we were discussing songs for for nicki i did traitor yesterday i was looking for a fool song and ab

ab you've given us the throwback i think we're gonna do it do share we're gonna surprise them right we're gonna surprise them okay it's an a it's an ab pick you know none of this tipster bullshit that i've been feeding you okay it's an a it's an ab pick uh just a classic memorial day barbecue yes fu to nicky haley all right i want to get to gershkowitz but first we need to talk Okay, it's an A, it's an A, B pick. Just a classic Memorial Day barbecue. Yes. F you to Nikki Haley. All right, I want to get to Gershkowitz, but first, we need to talk about the Trump rally in the Bronx yesterday, which I suffered through. I'm suffering for you in a big way, because man, I just, I can't believe we're here again.

I just really can't. I'm going to listen first to his comments about the hostages. There's no way that those hostages, and some will be alive, but many of those hostages are dead. It's a very, it's a very serious, horrible thing. It would have never happened if the election weren't rigged. It would have never happened. I mean, for people just listening, you can hear it in his voice, but his whole face changes.

Like he gets, you can tell, like the thing that he's mad about is the election rigging. Right, right. Not the hostages or the dead or anything as it ties to our pre pre-break segment like how do these people think that he's their ally unless the people that are very pro-israel like he's just so obviously only concerned about his own self and his own delusions jewish community are pro-israeli voters who have talked themselves into supporting Trump or just believe that he won't be able to back down and that it's a better bet than Biden and they will take whatever crap he says at rallies. You are absolutely right. He's only animated by his grievance, not about hostages who've been killed and the rest who haven't been returned home. And he doesn't talk about the need to get them home. He never gets up there and says,

you know, we need Hamas to release. It's like, it's not even a part of it. I'm one of the people who believes that he knows that he lost. And so it enrages me more when he says it never would have happened if the election wasn't really like i think he knows that he lost and cassidy hutchinson said that he said to mark meadows come on like it's so embarrassing i lost this guy so it makes me more crazy when he uses that to goose his crowds in the very volatile situation that we're in just separate and apart from people who are being held hostage or who've perished as hostages. So it's disgusting all around. And the fact that he continues to lean into that, which is just going to make, because he's ahead in the polls, more people prone to rage and violence.

Boy, it was even darker than I was. I'm glad to have you here, A.B. to just really turn the notch for me. To start the summer with the holiday weekend, so much darkness. All right. I've got one more clip. And a big reason why I want to talk about it is because it seems like me and a friend of the pod, friend of our vet, Ron Filipkowski over at Midas Touch are the only people that actually noticed

that this happened yesterday. None of the people who are paid to cover Donald Trump deigned to mention this. But here's something that happened at the rally in the Bronx yesterday. Here as well as rapper Chef G does everybody know Chef where is Chef G where is he come on up fellas rapper Sleepy Hallow come on up here fellas thank you very much that's where i like those teeth i want to find out where

you did i gotta get my teeth like that i want that to happen to me he wants the gold teeth so here's the thing whatever you know everybody brings up surrogates right you bring up famous people that support you the democrats do this but uh something you might not know about chef g and sleepy hallow they were arrested as part of a 32 defendant 140 count criminal indictment in new york the indictment included murder attempted murder illegal firearm possession at least a dozen shootings they are part of the eight tray crips and nine ways gangs you know sometimes like the media criticism part of this is so eye-rolly but like can you imagine if joe biden had brought up somebody who who was out on bail for murder like what the republicans would do this what fox would do this and trump

has on stage two guys that are literally out on a million dollar plus bail for killing people the whole phoniness of the law and order which has been a theme this week is so brazen and yet everybody's just like whatever it's trump yeah i mean first of all trump's out on bail which is never mentioned i mean americans have no idea that trump is actually out on bail. Good ad. And he wants teeth like that. Not for murder. He hopes that happens to him. There's no question. We always talk about this. I, like you, I'm so tired of ranting about how the media is covering this like a normal campaign, but actually not covering it like a normal campaign.

Right. They're not covering it like a man who tried to overthrow the government and stay in power illegally is trying to come back into power. They're covering it like a normal race. And then when things happen, like the accusation that the current president tried to assassinate him and bringing up criminals on stage, we just move on. People don't write up a story. People don't have a TV segment. It's not on the radio. It's deep into the internet. If you are interested in finding out about the rally and happen to follow Ron Filipowski on Twitter. So last night I watched that actual clip of them coming up and it was like, you know, it's perfect. He gets to use them. The crowd loves it, right?

He's got the bling of these two, he has two black men who are rappers supporting him and saying, make America great again. And then the next day he gets no hit for it. He doesn't get, hmm, from a Republican Senator. Actually, I wouldn't have had them at one of my campaign events. Like nothing. Not only does the media not do it, a Republican senator, actually, I wouldn't have had them at one of my campaign events. Like,

nothing. Not only does the media not do it, there's no disapproval from anybody across the board, which equals over time, as we know, approval. And that's why it's so insidious. Yeah, it is insidious. And that's why I think the point you made there that is right on the nose is it's, that's not covering like, like, I'm just asking for you to cover Trump like they would cover somebody else. Right. And it's just like, you know, JBL did this yesterday in the newsletter about the murder. It's just like, you imagine I was on the 2012 Romney campaign. So you imagine Mitt Romney accusing Barack Obama of trying to assassinate him and then having a couple murderers up on stage the next day. It's like the entire campaign would have shut down. Like every question to Mitt would have been about this. Every question to every Republican senator would have been about this. Like, why is he fabricating assassination claims?

And it's just like, whatever, water off the ducks back here. I want to give the other side of this a little bit. Trump's rally, there were parts that were unhinged, for sure. But something that I took away from it was similar to Jeff Charlotte's been on this podcast before he kind of monitors Christian nationalism. Very good. And we should have him back sometime. But he sent this out. And he goes, I've been listening to Trump in the Bronx. My record of both talking on Trump is fascism, starting from the golden escalator, and not telling people what they want to hear when it's not true is solid. So here's the awful news. He's doing what he does very well i kind of had to agree with that watching yesterday trump does not appeal to me at all

there's nothing it's not like i was like oh he was i found him very charming yeah but it's like his shtick up there you can tell he thinks he's winning he goes off in his on his tangents about the election no doubt but his language like he curbs himself like they're keeping him relatively in bounds for trump grading on the trump curve scale and you know things like the crowd starts chanting send them back send them back which is a gross racist cheer they chanted at ilan omar back in 2016 and he like stoked it back then right and when it happened here he was trying to soften it i don't know if he's not they're not feeding him in court or something but he's he looks a little trimmer and like he's up there forever he's up there for two hours and he's like making jokes and stuff

and i don't know again you're bringing up rappers as you're saying to a lower informed electorate you know and you're seeing this in the poll numbers people are looking at him and they're like i don't know you know like he's doing the fashy thing pretty well and like there's a group of people out there that want everybody to think like oh no he's deteriorating he's doing the fashy thing pretty well. And like, there's a group of people out there that want everybody to think like, Oh no, he's deteriorating. He's horrible. It's awful.

It's, and it's like, I don't know. I think he's doing it pretty well. And we're in for a real fucking fight. And I don't think it does anybody any good to pretend like he's not. So I know, I know you didn't suffer the whole speech like me,

but I'm curious what your reaction is to that. I'm so glad that you raised that because I saw Jeff's tweet and I recommend that everybody read Undertow or listen to it on Audible. It's one of the books that people need to read and absorb if Trump wins. It's really important, even if he doesn't. I just think it's like Liz Cheney's book about the entire TikTok of what happened, the insurrection, and Tim Alberta's book about evangelicals, the kingdom of the power and the glory. I think Undertow will teach you things about this country that will blow your mind. Anyway, back to Trump. I am with you.

I'm one of the people who thinks he looks great. I think he's on Ozempic light. Like Oprah takes it probably three days a week, so he's not nauseous all the time. He's looking good. He has stamina. I had another text yesterday, Ozempic. You also think so? Oh, yeah, I think so. I think so. And what I think is that Trump has something. So people are talking about aphasia. There are moments at rallies where Trump slurs. It only happened maybe once last night. But there are some times when it

happens more than that, where he can't read the words on the teleprompter and he goes, so there's something to that. But I don't know that he's actually decomposing. I think he looks good. I think he has stamina. I think, you know, the idea if he goes into a debate and somehow is controlled is really frightening. And he did have some scripted lines apparently last night about like coming together in the country as Americans, like throwing some stuff in there, right? And JVL has written about this, that like, he gets both. He gets to both like energize the base with some throwaway lines like, Judge Merchant, look where he came from. So he'll always keep doing this racist right

supremacist shit and fast dictator stuff because his base wants that. And then he'll swing back and have these moments where he's like, you know, the border's crazy. There's too much chaos. And like I had the best economy in the world or whatever he says to appeal. Now, you had a great conversation with Jasmine Crockett about Black voters. It is undeniable that non-college Black and Latino voters were among the hardest hit by inflation. Inflation is the driving theme of this election, not democracy. Unfortunately, inflation is the overpowering theme that voters, this is the prism through which they see everything, which is that they've never had price hikes like this in their lifetime.

I believe the polls when I see this flight of those voters to Trump, particularly when they're younger and they don't even really remember or weren't following his first term. There was some good polling on this this week, asking young people what they remember. I think to pretend that he's in bad shape and he's like stumbling around incoherent, it's just not true. It doesn't help anybody in terms of the contrast on a debate stage or in campaign events of Biden versus Trump. Biden has a stutter and it gets worse when he's tired,

and he's tired because he's old. I don't think he has dementia at all, but I think that he gets fatigued, and then he sounds worse than he actually is because he has a stutter. But I think that optics are everything in politics, and we have to remember that. So it's stupid to deny that Trump has a good rap,

and that he looks pretty up to it. I just want to say one more thing on this. Again, we're great on the Trump looks good, like for Trump. And obviously, like if you want, you wouldn't want to see him shirtless. He would look repulsive and like the face. And if he didn't have his fucking burnt sienna makeup on, you know, you'd be like, ah, again, perception. We're talking about the perception, what he looks like on that stage.

The one other thing I want to say is I know you just see it in the, you know, numbers, right? Like of retweets or YouTube views or stuff like people want to see Trump decomposing, like that makes them happy. Trump gonna lose that makes people happy makes me happy, right? I want to see Trump's gonna lose. Here's the interesting thing, though. There is like a weird thing that it's like, you know if you talk about the election like it's close so that trump's winning a little bit then that's like bad for biden and i actually reject that i think that everybody should be clear-eyed about the state of affairs i think that it would help for the biden campaign to feel like they were running behind it worries me a little bit

when sometimes it seems like they don't and as far as voter psychology i don't think it flipped the election but i am convinced that this notion that hillary was certainly going to win in 2016 helped trump's vote turnout there's a person probably listening to this right now who's after a few drinks revealed to me former republican that they're like i think i would have done hillary if i would have known you know now they. Now they didn't live in a swing state, so whatever. But I think that there were people out there that either didn't vote or didn't because they're just like, this guy's a clown. This isn't going to happen.

Hillary's going to win a landslide. You know what I mean? And so I don't think it actually helps anybody for people to think that Biden is going to win. So I'm going to skip over additional hopium talk. I wanted to get your take on Gershkowitz that you mentioned earlier. Just for background, Evan Gershkowitz is a reporter at the Wall Street Journal who's been held by Russia for a while. Trump sent out a bleat yesterday saying that he would be released almost immediately after the election, but before Trump assumes office, he will be all caps home,

safe with his family. Vladimir Putin, president of Russia will do that for me, but not for anyone else. Then send a chill down your spine. Until that bleep came out, the idea of him potentially threatening the lives of FBI agents by saying that there was a plot to assassinate him by President Joe Biden was like the hair on fire story that no one was covering. This is absolutely unbelievable that he is nakedly admitting that he and Putin have a

deal. They're in communication that Putin will do whatever it takes to help Trump win and that Evan Gershwitz has to rot in jail unless Trump wins. This is beyond comprehension. No one is reacting. Senator John Thune, Senator John Cornyn, you're running for majority leader of the U.S. Senate. Would you like to have a word about this? Mitch McConnell, greatest champion of fighting against the threat of Russia, confronting Vladimir Putin. I haven't heard a word. It's not subtle, guys. No, it's not subtle. He's hitting you over the head with that. It wasn't like in code.

He threw our intelligence community under the bus at Helsinki. He took the side of the Russians. His sons admitted in 2007 and 2008 that they didn't need US banks anymore that would reject the Trump organization because they had money from the Russians. He is an asset. If he is not an active agent, he is an asset. And it doesn't seem to bother anybody. It doesn't seem to bother Americans that he is on the Saudi payroll, that he is dependent for his income on the Saudi government, and that we are a satellite of the Russian Federation. And this makes me crazy. And so Trevor Reed, I don't know if you saw this, I saw it this morning, wrote last night, he was released from jail, wrongfully detained by Putin under the Biden administration in 2022. And he writes, as a former wrongful

detainee, a Marine, an American Marine, detainee in Russia, I would just like to remind everyone that President Trump had the ability to get myself and Paul Whelan out of Russia for years and chose not to. I would be skeptical of any claims about getting Evan Gershwitz back in a day. Who is standing up this morning for Trevor Reed and agreeing with him and saying, Biden got our service member home. didn't do it this is such a dangerous threat to the country and the fact that we have no response is just it's just scares the daylights out of me Americans don't respond to this anymore yeah you can imagine somebody out there listening to that right and be like oh these oh, these Never Trumpers, they're deranged. They think that they still have the Russia thing and the pee tape. And it's like, he's saying it. They're in cahoots. He's saying it right there in public. He's like, we're in cahoots. Me and Vlad, we would. Always has been. The Russian government wrote Don Jr. and said, it's part of our effort

to get your father reelected. It's always been. He flatters Putin at every single rally. He did it last night again, right there on the top of their game, Xi, Putin, all the dictators. But to send that tweet out and to say, you know, we have a deal going,

a special arrangement. I'm going to get favors from him. We won't have to pay anything. It'd be great. It's so beyond outrageous and it's so astonishing. And the lack of reaction is just sickening. More sickening stuff. Christina Bob, you know her? She is just one of the most esteemed attorneys in this country, I think. Another thing that's just like, how is this not sinking in with people? How is this not sinking in with everybody? The Republican National Committee Senior Counsel for Election Integrity.

The RNC hired two lawyers, a normal lawyer, friend of both of ours. Well, I don't know if we're friends anymore, but a one-time friend of both of ours, Charlie Spees, who's just a regular person that was enabling donald trump uh to a certain degree and then a wild-eyed lunatic who used to be an oan anger it was kind of a joint lawyer hiring at the rnc the relatively normal one gets pushed out bob is still there she was recently arraigned in arizona for her role in a plot to overturn the state's election results her new twitter biopic is a picture of her mugshot and she sent this tweet what the fuck they were prepared to kill me

question mark a few dozen fbi agents versus me and they were ready to kill me what in the world happened to the united states of america question mark this person is a lunatic if you were like on your kid's soccer team and there was a little, you know, there was a little social media group, a little Facebook group of the moms and dads on the team. And one of the moms posted this, you'd be like, I need to find a new team. Like, I don't want my child to be next to this person.

She's the lead lawyer for the Republicans right now. She thinks that the deep state was out to kill her. No, I disagree with you. What, which part? You keep your kid on the the soccer team you'd want to hang out with christine have some drinks with her she knows what she's doing they're all straight up criminals and they're they relish in their criminal not lunatic the stop the steal thing is a is a badge of honor i was from day one wondering how is charlie to keep that job? Why did they hire him? Why did they give it to him? All they want is crooks and election deniers and stop the steel

freaks. And what Trump has taught her is you lean in. And so she jumped on the Mar-a-Lago thing to try to have a part of it. They were going to shoot me and President Trump. This is like, this is just what MAGA does. I don't think that she's crazy at all. Is JD Vance crazy? Is Ted Cruz crazy? We're gonna get to Ted. Everyone who knows that Donald Trump is a dangerous sociopathic lunatic, and abides him. And gratuitously now, you know, whatever aids him and abets him, they're not actually mentally ill. I think Christina might be mentally ill, but I hear you. JD isn't. I'm open to the idea that she's not mentally ill, but her public persona, everything would indicate some sort of mental

illness. Is it not odd that the Law and Order Party's chief legal officer has a mugshot as her profile pic? Is that not at all concerning or odd? That's what election integrity means. You have to have been a part of the effort to take back the election for the, I'm sure you saw this the other day on Twitter, some people call him the rightful President Trump. And so she did her heroic patriotic duty by getting indicted for this crime of trying to take back a stolen election for Donald Trump, the rightful winner. So no, now that the RNC is like, just like a third world, like family gang, like I, I'm not actually surprised at all that their election integrity people are crooks. And the donors, as you can see, they're disgusted, but they're all in and they're paying up anyway.

Well, I just think that's a fun fact to share with people at the Memorial Day Barbecue of Politics comes up that the Republican Party's head lawyer has her mugshot as her profile picture. So that's just the state of play. One more about people that think donald trump is a rightful president possibly two of the nine supreme court justices i just was dying to hear your take on the appeal to heaven flag i was not quite as breathless about the appeal to heaven flag as everybody was i mean i i do think it's weird i guess i'd say this christ Christian Vanderbrook said this, another friend of the pod. And he, um,

I think his point was right, which is like, if you only knew two facts about someone and the two facts were that they flew an upside down American flag and an appeal to heaven flag with the pine tree on it outside their home after January six, then you'd have like a 99% likelihood of believing that they were sympathetic with the coup, you know,

as a standalone, the pine tree flag, maybe a little weird, but not anything problematic. But those two facts together, sure seems like Samuel Alito was like basically pro-coup. No? So before we even learned about the flags, we knew that Samuel Alito was a frothing partisan who has no business on that court, let alone weighing in on decisions that have to do with January 6th, immunity for these prosecutions of January, nothing. Okay. He doesn't have the temperament and the measured approach to be on the court. The things that people were saying when people were raising that about Brett Kavanaugh because he was weeping about beer at a Senate hearing and people were saying,

you know, you can't like lose it like that, you know, like what's going on here? And we all know if a woman did that, by the way, they would, her own family would have come in to the Senate hearing room and dragged her out by the ankle. Like that would have been the end, okay? Women cannot survive this. So judicial temperament, like Samuel Alito disqualified himself a long time ago but I'm with you it's fine for the national review crowd and John Bolton to get really excited and try to defend one of the flags and say like you cannot pick one thing from my life and make a universal judgment right but you don't get to have both flags, like one at your country house and then one at your main residence. Like,

I'm sorry. No. And he tried to blame his wife the first time. And as you've pointed out, like, Oh yes. Our universal primitive response. Our instinct is the minute our spouse is insulted,

we have to run out and turn an American flag upside down. Like this is crazy. So you don't get the two flags. Like that's just, it stinks too much. Did you know about the appeal to heaven flag? Were familiar did you know about no i didn't until i learned about it but and i don't know if it's true and people can look this up but that someone who lives near leonard leo sent out a picture that he also has the same one yeah leonard leo

everyone has their little coded messages but you don't get get two flags. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, I'd seen it before, and I made this joke on Twitter. I was like, I think I thought it was the Vermont flag. There are always a lot of weird flags at Republican rallies, and I wasn't so into vexicology that I didn't know exactly. But I was familiar with the flag, but I was like, oh, okay, I get it now. We're going to go rapid fire. We've got three more topics we're going to do. It's been heavy we need to listen to ted cruz get owned by caitlin collins

really quick let's listen to that senator with all due respect after it had been thrown out of many courts after the attorney general bill barr because there was no basis for those court cases that's that that's actually not with all due respect you asked me a question you want me to answer it and you didn't answer the question yes i did cases were. Dozens of court cases were thrown out. Hold on a second. The Attorney General said there was no widespread fraud. You're not clearly answering the question. I want to thank you for that. I'm not. I'm answering every question. I think the country would have been a lot better off with a determination of what evidence of voter fraud there was that occurred.

And instead, the media didn't want to hear it and insist voter fraud never occurs. You ought to go back and look at the Carter Baker Commission. It was the attorney general, and my question was about 2024. It was the media. It was CNN that relentlessly pushed that propaganda. And by the way, never holds... What propaganda? That there was no widespread fraud in the election?

That voter fraud doesn't exist, and anyone who says it does is wearing a tinfoil hat. You're wearing a tinfoil hat. Later in the interview, she does this. People should go find this themselves. It's really enjoyable. They go around and around for like nine minutes and uh he he cited he said he wanted to do what they did in 1876 to determine the 2020 election he wanted to have a panel of five senators five house members and five supreme court justices

that's constitutionalist ted cruz's. What do you think about that? He knows that we know that he knows, right? Perfectly well. That in our system, we hold a million gazillion different elections and they are controlled separately and the federal government does not operate them. but that after 2020, for those of us who are paying attention, Trump's own government, including his attorney general and Chris Krebs and others said this was a safe and secure election where no fraud would have impacted it. But he knew the question was coming and then he embarrassed himself. Like, why didn't he have a better answer?

He wants to talk about voter fraud that doesn't make a difference? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what he's doing. It was a mistake. It was pathetic. It was fun to watch. I was enjoying it. I need little bits of joy. Good for Caitlin Collins. Really took it to him. All right, two other just local topics I feel obliged to hit before we let people enjoy their weekend. Here in Louisiana, the Senate passed a bill Thursday that would classify the abortion pill as a controlled substance, criminalizing the possession of Muffapristone without a prescription. It's expected to be signed by Janky Jeff Landry here next week, making Louisiana the first

state to do this. I mean, really sucks for women in Louisiana. So I just want to start by saying that. Politically, though, I mean, I don't think it's want to start by saying that politically, though, I mean, I don't think it's going to hurt janky Jeff, but it's kind of a disaster for Republicans, really, you know, because Trump really doesn't want to have to have people be worried that this is a threat in a second term. And Louisiana is just basically being like, yeah, it's a threat. It's not only a threat, it's happening here well it's interesting let's start with trump i mean the project 2025 has some kind of language as i understand it about the comstock act and

trying to stop the shipment if that his fda would consider blocking shipments of meth per stone and making it illegal whatever so women in states that have like these, all these strict bans are now obviously getting the medication from other states. I did follow this a few weeks ago, Tim. And what I think is interesting about it is that the sponsor of the legislation, state Senator Presley, not with an E before the Y, no relation, actually launched this because his sister was like Jason Miller Ruffied. And that's actually terrible. So if you think about this as a gateway explanation for doing it, it's really interesting. Jason Miller Ruffied, for people who missed that,

it's the accusation about the Trump spokesperson. Trump's married spokesperson in 2016 put an abortion drug in some woman's drink that he had impregnated and he got caught and it's a disaster. Obviously, this is incredibly cruel and this happened to the state senator's sister. So it's a compelling story and he makes the case, you shouldn't have this without a prescription because you could do something like that. don't want it to make its way to women unknowingly so that's a danger and that's a crime so i get that couldn't you criminalize roofing people rather than having criminalizing access to the to the drug that's interesting yes so i think it's a gateway explanation for them that they think is like gonna be a good good sneaky backdoor. That's what I think. Because obviously, if you look at the doctors who made the case that women are going to suffer, that some of

them could die, this is going to restrict access. I mean, they're now demanding that only a specific doctor can prescribe this. So it really will have a negative impact. I'm just saying, I thought that was kind of an interesting part of it, that that's it started and you can see it just might pop up in other states right they tell this story and say it's terrible and this is why we have to do it louisiana we're also doing don't say gay now i'm happy i have the resources put my kid in private school you know it's always like the well there is the one book that has blow jobs in it in the kids library and i'm always like yeah okay well let's like say that books with blowjobs in them can't be an elementary school library it's like okay i'm not big on book banning but that seems reasonable that seems a lot more reasonable than telling a ninth grade teacher that they can't talk about their gay partner in class a lot of times there

are these specific issues that and then they're used to broaden it out because i just i think about this situation it's like the sponsor's sister that's horrible that she went through that but you know you're in louisiana what if you're a 17 year old girl 16 year old girl you get impregnated your parents are fundamentalist christians and you can't get the drug you know with a prescription because you have the same doctor your parents have or they're limiting the number of doctors that can do this you can't get to the other city where they have, you know what I mean? Like there are a lot of different ways that this could affect people and could force women to, you know, into situations they don't want.

Also, because it's used for other things that could also endanger women's lives if they don't have it. Good point. I'm glad you raised that. Okay. Lastly, I feel like if the Borg doesn't mention this, who is going to? Progressive DAs are going down all over the place right now. And I think it's a good lesson. And in some ways, it shows that the Democratic coalition is self policing, pun not intended there, you know, in a way that the Republicans aren't about some of their own extremism. I wrote, I can't pretend to know all the details about what exactly is happening in Portland, where the progressive district attorney Mike Schmidt was defeated by a tougher on crime challenger, Nathan Vasquez, who is a former Republican prosecutor in his own office. But I can speak to the trend,

you know, this also happened in San Francisco, where Chesa Badin was replaced with Brooke Jenkins, who I interviewed, did a great interview with her, if people want to go back and find this, it was maybe a year or two ago. And, you know, she's a totally mainstream Democrat. It's not like a broken windows type of DA, but just like, we should prosecute criminals type of Democrat DA. And you're seeing this trend now across these liberal enclaves. I do think it's interesting and somewhat encouraging. I do too. You actually wrote about this also separate from your interview with her. just I guess it was around the time that London Breed was elected mayor. Anyway, San Francisco is a lesson. It just is.

Union Square has been decimated. Macy's flagship left. This has a real effect on cities, on the psyche, on the economy, on tourism, on everything. It's very frustrating for the Democrats right now because violent crime has plummeted so dramatically in the Biden administration. And they're trying to make that case. But we have new levels of disorder. And so people don't want to see videos of gratuitous looting, people biking through CVS and throwing shit in garbage bags, weed stink everywhere, you know, homeless encampments, and like fentanyl parks where people look like they're literally dying when they walk through

the city. That is just the truth that people don't like that. Even if it doesn't affect their personal security in their specific neighborhood or their block, they can't stand it. When they're going to work, going to shop, going to drop their kids at school, whenever they're in a part of a city that looks like it's just completely become a war zone and been forgotten. This is terrible for Democrats. And I think you're right that they are policing their own and they've seen it. They know since 2020 that non-college Black and latino voters who want more police in their neighborhood voted for trump and republicans they know the data i mean at the local level i'm glad that new leaders are being elected and there's new lead actual leadership but i think also at a

national level it needs to be messaged a little more does it need to be messaged and it can be message tied together you know look i just always thought that the biden message on this is always right he was always in the middle of the and he just has to be the prominent voice on this not some other folks because the crime is going down we do have one disagreement i mean i the weed stink i'll take that over you know over having to smell people's disgusting cigars you know i've got to listen to stuff all down the street it's like i had to go to these republican parties where these dudes were just chomping on gross ass cigars. That's being my hair. Like, okay, I'll take weed stink by comparison.

That's just me. Besides that, totally aligned. A.B. Stoddard, I'm going to let you get to your weekend. Everybody, do you have plans? Anything? Beach? Barbecue? Dark shades?

Both my twins just graduated from college. So we've been on the road and it's been wonderful. So this weekend is a lot of like around the house projects that I'm really excited to get to like changing the basement sofa, we got like the modular one that arrives in a million boxes and a lot of exciting projects. What about you? All right, enjoy the sofa project. We also are sitting around because we have a lot of travel coming up in June. so we're just hanging it's beautiful here in new orleans we go to the pool probably i'll catch up on some writing and you know getting ready for for you guys i gotta do more content creation so

pool and content for me oh you pump out more content dude you're wrong and it's been wonderful by the way i love the jasmine interview but also james comey's so interesting he was so interesting some people fast forwarded through it and i get it because i was triggered no no i was triggered by james comey as well you know it brings back ptsd and sometimes it's hard and so yeah you gotta listen just wait till you're in a good place you know just wait till you can you can process it without any anger he made some mistakes but he is interesting and thoughtful and by the way like so clear-eyed about donald trump and the threat yeah and it's just like you know we're gonna have people on

this podcast that disagree about a ton of things variety of things but if you are clear-eyed about donald trump this is a safe space for you we're gonna have you on here we're gonna talk it through so anyway ab stoddard i love you your Memorial Day weekend. Enjoy the new modular couch. Everybody else, have a great Memorial Day weekend. We're taking Monday off. We'll see you all back here on Tuesday. Peace. Time's a hard, you're afraid to pay the fee.

So you find yourself somebody who can do the job for free When you need a bit of lovin' Cause your man is out of town That's the time you get me runnin' And you know I'll be around I'm a fool to do your dirty work, oh yeah I don't wanna do your dirty work no more I'm a fool to do your dirty work, oh yeah Light the candle, put the lock upon the door

You have sent the maid home early Like a thousand times before Like a castle in its corner In a medieval game Life will see terrible trouble And I stay here just to say I'm a fool to do your dirty work, oh yeah I don't wanna do your dirty work no more.

I'm a fool to do your dirty work, oh yeah. I don't want to do your dirty work no more. I'm a fool to do your dirty work. Oh, yeah. The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.