The Bulwark Podcast - S.E. Cupp: Grieving the Insanity

Episode Date: July 19, 2024

Republicans wanted a 'do no harm' convention, but it was too corporate and lacked any joie de vivre. And then they ended the affair with grievance, fasci Tucker, and 96 minutes of weird incoherence from Trump. Meanwhile, AOC gives a peak behind the scenes of what's going on with Democrats trying to push Biden out. S.E. Cupp joins Tim Miller for the weekend pod. show notes: Savannah Chrisley talking about her imprisoned parents at the RNC Tim's playlist 

Hello and welcome to the Borg podcast. I'm your host Tim Miller. I'm pumped to have for the first time were you ever on with Charlie? S.E. Cupp, political analyst, CNN contributor, host of Battleground on Fox's own stations, never Trumper. What's up, S.E.? What's up? Good to see you. Is this your inaugural visit to the Borg podcast? I did something with Sarah before. Your focus group, maybe. Yeah, all right. Well, that's good. Welcome.

Yeah, let's do this. This is going to be good. The people are going to be ready. The people. We have much to discuss. Yeah. The podcast will be significantly shorter than Trump's speech was last night. The longest convention speech in history.

I don't know who is the person in charge of measuring that over at Guinness, but whoever it was, 96 minutes outpacing the second longest ever, which was Donald Trump's 2016 speech. And Bill Clinton's 1998 speech, a previous title holder, was just swamped last night. I want to talk about that and Tucker and obviously what's happened on the Dem side. But first, just what was your biggest top line impression of the four nights that we saw in Milwaukee? I was impressed. Listen, I've been saying this for some time. The operation that La Civita et al are running is good this time around. It's disciplined, it's focused, it's organized. It's running better than Trump is actually. And evidence of that was last night and Trump's sort

of meandering, rambling, undisciplined, not unifying speech. But the operation's been great. And I think the RNC went really well for Republicans. If you're measuring it against whether or not they're getting new voters with this, that's another question. I think they are, but not because of anything they're doing, but because Democrats aren't fielding a competitive challenger. And so independents or moderates or undecideds who might have tuned in might have said, well, this looks like a party that's organized, unified, wants to win. This

looks like a candidate who's strong. I don't know what's going on on the other side, but yeah, I might be able to give these people my vote. I don't know how many of those there were in the important swing states, but I think it went as well as could be expected. What did you think? Yeah, I mean, I see what you're saying with that. We're definitely grading on a curve. I almost wonder if it was a little too corporate. Sure. Let's put Trump in a separate box a little bit, because the Trump speech was so weird and so different from everything else that happened. Okay. So just speaking of the rest of the convention for a minute, did it lose a little bit of the joie de vivre of MAGA?

I mean, it's tough, right? Like, it's tough to do this. And Trump brings in people because of his unique style, right? He repels people, present company included, because of that style. But, like, I don't know. I mean, there was nothing there. And I guess if their goal was in the fallout of the assassination attempt in Butler to not scare people away, it wasn't unifying. They didn't do that. They can't reach the kumbaya.

There's no Barack Obama. There's no red states, no blue states. You didn't have any of that. The rhetoric wasn't singing. But did they achieve not scaring anybody? Did they achieve? Do no harm. Do no harm.

And if they think that they're ahead, I do think so. And to your point, you're complimenting La Savita kind of on an old measure, which is like, what did we want from the Mitt Romney convention in 2012? To not have Clint Eastwood yelling at an empty chair, right? Like if you went back, like you would have, you would have hopefully done no harm. And that was not achieved. And I guess they achieved that. So we'll grade them on a curve on that. I hear you. The Trump speech, on the other hand, for people who didn't suffer through it, I guess at 96 minutes, the first 20 minutes was the best i

could describe it would be like like you're sitting in a classroom you have like a retired person that comes to a classroom to read a story to children about an assassination attempt and that kind of went on for like 19 minutes i'm sorry yeah i'm sorry i've done it on every show we're happy thank god for the one inch miss bullet but i just to be descriptive of what he was doing that was the best i could way i could describe it and then after that that was 20 minutes then after that there was like another 20 minutes of of like toast master at a wedding recognizing the sister of the bride, my buddy from high school came all the way from New Zealand. You know, my wife, good to see her. I haven't seen her in a while. Like, it was very

strange. Like, it was very strange. Yeah, that part. And then he gets into the actual speech. Like, as long as a normal convention speech usually is. Now, that's when he's beginning the actual substance of the speech. And so I wanted to give that to you first and get your response because to me, it ties to my answer about the other thing. The only positive I can think from him of that speech is I looked at that and I'm like, that guy doesn't feel like Hitler. You know what I mean?

A little less organized. It didn't intentionally work, but if the Democrats' big frame here is Mike Donilon buying the big frame, it's like democracy is on the ballot. I didn't watch that and think. I mean, I feel that way still because I know about Donald Trump's people, but I feel like if I'm casual watching that, I'm like, that doesn't feel like Mussolini to me. That feels rambly.

Well, a couple things. I think that was the trick of the RNC. And again, to the organization, they really put a fine veneer on the party. And, you know, akin to telling Donald Trump to distance himself from 2025, to not dancing on Joe Biden's grave. All that advice was very, very good and counterintuitive to what Trump would normally do. The speech, I think, was meant to be along those lines, disciplined, maybe a little bit more unifying, but we know Trump, he doesn't, he doesn't do that. And watching over the first few days, I got doing interviews, I got a lot of questions like Trump looks a little reserved in the box. He looks a little somber. Was that maybe because

of, you know, the attempt on his life? And I said, no, he doesn't want to listen to other people speak. He wants to be speaking. He is not here for Nikki Haley's speech and Marco Rubio. He wants to be the one speaking and he is bored out of his mind. He looked especially bored. Let's see if we can say it at the same time. Which speech do you look the most bored during? One, two, three, Eric.

I mean, he looked like he was like how could this still be going yeah he looked bored i know i think he likes kai more than he likes eric for sure but i think trump is trump no matter how you polish it and he wanted to be the one speaking he was never going to stick to his script he can can't help himself. He has a stage. He's going to use it as long as he can. And so he stretched and stretched because he loves it up there. But it was weird. It was a weird speech. I don't know how impactful those are on voters. Again, I think it was a do no harm convention. But yeah, it was a weird speech, better than American carnage, it was a weird speech. Better than American Carnage, but like a weird

speech. You know, if he wasn't Trump, if he was a normal politician, we'd be like trying to analyze what were they trying to do with it? You know, like there were these moments where he was, he talked about how love, I wrote down some words during the speech, talked about faith, devotion, providence, the things that he cherishes. Like all of that stuff sounds just off key for Trump. Like when you're watching, he doesn't know what providence means. Exactly. When you're like watching a cover band of a band that, you know,

and you're like, that note is not right. Like it's just, it just hurts your ear a little. Yeah. No pun intended there. So I guess the point was just hey we're not gonna scare people or do you think they really thought he was capable of doing like a soaring oratory thing and they thought that they might actually be able to land with some of the women voters that they're struggling with i'm grasping because i just don't know what the

point like when they were chatting about it like what do you think the point was i think there was a concerted effort in this convention to be happier and more upbeat and little less doom and gloom and i don't know if that was because of you know current events yeah or that they had always planned that i i don't know but i think there was the feeling that they had always planned that. I don't know, but I think there was the feeling that they're in such a good position and they are that let's ride this and let's try to make this a little more positive and upbeat. Trump isn't capable of staying up there, but I think that was the, that was the effort. And listen, like I said, whoever's advising him to be as disciplined, quote unquote disciplined, as he has in the past few weeks has been effective. That has been very effective. And I think they thought maybe we can get one more good performance out of him. But it was too long.

You gave him too much time. In that amount of time, he's never going to stick to script i do love the speaking on a curve side of us uh among the discipline speech included an extended riff on him imagining that if he was the president of guatemala that he would empty the prisons and send all the worst prisoners to america an unusual kind of freestyle for a nomination acceptance speech, but truly it's not on my list, but I do have to say it. I feel like I have to say it. It's fucking insane. He was nominated by, it's my former party. Are you still,

I don't know if you're still where you're still identifying these days. It's come on. Yeah. Former, officially former. Some people are hanging on. I'm fine. Michael Steele. Let me, I guess it's still hanging on for some reason. I don't know. He surprised me with that the other night. Goodially former. Some people are hanging on. Michael Steele, I guess, is still hanging on for some reason. I don't know. He surprised me with that the other night. Good on him. We got the Michael Steele podcast on the Borg Network, by the way. Go check it out. It's a good promo I just did for Michael. So anyway, my former party, it's fucking insane.

Three times. It was the third time they nominated this person. Do you ever just sit with that for a second? I mean, all the time. I still can't believe, I'm eight years, right, removed from the moment that everything changed around me. And I am still, I wouldn't say in a state of denial, but I'm not at like acceptance. I'm still grieving the insanity of where we are, nominating a person who lost the White House, the House, and the Senate for Republicans, nominating a person who was twice impeached, nominating a person who is a convicted felon, rapist. I mean, it is insane. And yet,

the shocks keep coming. I mean, just when you think, okay, this might be a bridge too far or the party will, will come back to sanity. They go way past, you know, sanity and it's like, no, no, no, we haven't even gotten to the craziest place yet. So, I mean, it's, I'm still mourning something that truly ended eight years ago, eight years ago. It's been long gone and it's just gotten worse and worse, but I still can't believe where we're at. And the sad part for me, in addition to all the things that this guy is our party's representative, that this guy is our country's representative, that the party has morphed and given up on so many policies and principles. The thing that saddens me the most is that conservatism as a set of values doesn't change regardless of who's in the White House or who's leading the party or whatever. But for the past century, the people talking the most about conservatism have been Republicans. Now no one's talking about conservatism. No one.

I mean, we do occasionally occasionally but no one listens so it doesn't even matter it's like in a vacuum so you've got democrats arguing about progressivism versus more progressivism and you've got republicans arguing about nonsense like tariffs and let's explode the debt who cares crazy stuff no one's here to talk about conservatism and that really that really saddens me because i don't know who who can keep doing that you know does anyone listen to adam kinsinger or mitt romney or liz cheney i mean i do but mike mike is out there doing it mike pence he's got a new group i heard i don't i don't hear my i asked el. He couldn't be less relevant. He's less relevant than I am. I'm not a traitor.

He's a traitor inside this movement. It's true. Who of relevance is left? We're all doing it, right? Bulwark and Jonah and the dispatch. We're doing it. I'm focused on liberalism. I'm a classical liberal now. I'm trying to take back liberalism.

I've given up on conservative. It's over. I think it's lost. I think the word is lost for me. That makes me really sad. I'm sorry to sadden you. Yeah, okay. Well, it's good.

I'm happy that you haven't got to acceptance because I thought I was at acceptance and then I watched him last night and I was like, how is this still real? How is this real? Yeah, I know. Speaking of things that are crazy,

the assassination attempt, the secret service did finally confirm that it was a bullet obviously it was a bullet but i didn't believe any of the conspiracies about it i just i thought it was weird how long it was taking them to like answer questions about an attempted assassination on a on the leading presidential candidate that it felt like there should have been a press conference earlier or something yeah but um they did confirm that heilman asked me this last night i was over on his podcast if you need more takes from me listeners i felt like it was my worst answer because i just don't know and so i'm curious maybe you'll have a better answer what do you think we think the staying power of that is like are we in this world now where we're like by october that's gonna feel like it was 18 years? Or do you think that it's galvanizing the party in a permanent way? Do you think it's changing Trump? Open question.

What do you think the ramifications of that tragic event is going to be? I don't think it has staying power. And part of my job for several networks now is to be on the news. And when Monday came and it was RNC time, the shooting was there in the background, but we were fully on the next beat. We were onto the RNC and that was a little shocking to me because it was literally a day's distance. You know, you had Sunday between bandages at the RNC and stuff, but really we were fully, fully onto the next story, which was the RNC. And now that that's over, we're going to be fully onto Joe Biden leaving the ticket fully. And once Republicans aren't dominating the news cycle with an RNC kind of event, I think, I think it's gone. It's done, which is wild to think. But I think it's I think it's gone. I think the the moment happened and we're past it. Yeah, that's so weird.

I agree with that. I think it's weird. You're a little more pro gun than me. Should a 20 year old be able to go buy 50 rounds of ammunition and just immediately like buy it that day no don't you think that's something we should be thinking about no and you know a problem that is a usual a typical problem is that he took someone else's gun right in this case his dad's right which is not to say he couldn't have bought it legally he might have been able to but as pro second amendment as i am i have long advocated for making it much harder for bad guys and sick people to get their hands on guns and it's hard to do young boys constitutionally and young and young boys and listen there's been movement specifically on that over the past few years, Adam Kinzinger, big gun rights guy as well, has called for age limits, age minimums to buy assault weapons.

I think that's common sense. These are hard things to do, but I'm fully on board with changing our gun laws, fully on board. There was one speech that maybe, well, there was maybe more than one. There were a couple of other moments i just think it's fair to say well the arnstein convention was tamped down a little bit there were signs calling for mass deportations there were some weird scream and peter navarro went straight from jail to the stage so there was there were still some weird moments savannah chrisley was like my weirdest moment did you see savannah chrisley i missed that one no i missed that who is that well she's a reality tv daughter both her parents are in jail for bank fraud and tax evasion they did it okay

but she's trying to say in solidarity with the sham witch trial against donald trump that the doj also came after her parents no they just broke the law and they're in jail. And that was weird. That was a weird, let's shine a light on criminal activity. Like why shine a light on criminals, but that's where they went. That's kind of core to the core of the convention. All right. Savannah Chrisley. We'll put that in the show notes. I'll have to go check that one out. I mean, I felt like I watched a hundred hours of the convention. So how could I have missed one? But I guess, I guess the biggest winner was the house band. We're about the same age, but I like identify more young, younger millennial because my Peter Pan syndrome and you're like a full,

you're a full Xennial. I'm an old soul. Yeah, you're an old soul. And I like classic rock and like dad rock. Yeah, music was a little Gen X for me. And they've been getting so much love. The band is Six Wire. They're out of Nashville, Tennessee. And like I had Democrats calling and being like, that band is awesome, man. Like they killed it. I think they're going to get some like national attention now. What do you think was their highlight? 38 Special.

Great. I live in the 70s, like late 60s, 70s music. So it was great for me girl the the weather speech uh besides savannah chrisley and peter navarro's ode to criminality that left me a little a little unsettled uh was from your your old buddy tucker carlson let's take a listen everything was different after that moment. Everything. This convention is different. The nation is different. The world is different.

Donald Trump is different. When he stood up after being shot in the face, bloodied, and put his hand up, I thought at that moment, that was a transformation. This was no longer a man. Well, I think that. I think it was divine intervention. But the effect that it had on Donald Trump, he was no longer just a political party's nominee or a former president or a future president. This was the leader of a nation. And I think there's

a difference. I think, I mean, I've spent most of my life in Washington where the president is at the top of the pyramid. Everyone wants to be the president. But if you think about it, the presidency comes with great power, obviously. But if you think about it, that is a title that is bestowed by a process of some sort that can be subverted.

And in the end, it does not confer by itself, as no title does legitimacy yeah that was the fascist thing i think at the whole at the whole deal again i was kind of worried the whole fucking week was going to be super fashy and that we were going to go to a very dark place so i'm kind of happy that it was a little muted like it was sprinkled in yeah but that's fucking that's some weird stuff like that was a little bit there's a little bit of Mussolini in that for me there's a little bit of a Russian kind of and Tucker's a russophile now kind of like a Stalinist leader of the nation blood and soil

providential I don't know what'd you make Right. Well, your face kind of tells me for YouTube viewers, but go ahead. There's so many emotions when I listened to Tucker and one of them is that I used to know him very well and admired and respected him and he's smart. And that makes it harder to watch these turns that he's made. But I mean, predominantly, I, you know, I'm not a theist. So some of that language scares me besides that. Yeah. I mean, predominantly, I'm not a theist, so some of that language scares me. Besides that, yeah, I mean, it was a little jarring because we didn't hear as much of that as I thought we would as well. But that's what Tucker's there for. I think that's what he's there to do. And he still, I think, has a big fan base, not as big as he once had. But I think it's a compliment to that wing of the party that wants to hear that kind of stuff and really does see Donald Trump as a cult figure.

And Tucker sees no problem with leaning into that. Like that's that should be a big turnoff that people see him as a cult leader. And for someone like Tucker to kind of just turn right into that, I think shows you just how much very smart people have accepted that that is the makeup of the party now, that it's made up of cultists and they have to appeal to them. Yeah, as somebody who is not really attracted by cults or these sorts of religious appeals. I have to note that it was just 2021, three years ago, that Tucker was texting that he thinks Trump is a demonic force. He used that phrase, a demonic force. And so it's intriguing for somebody to be a demonic force, a force of hell in 2021. And then three years later to say that he is the hand of god is with him correct it makes me think that maybe it's not maybe it's not an authentic conversion i don't know hard for me to just throw that out there but i don't exactly know maybe yeah i don't know or maybe

people that are very like attracted to cults it's then it's kind of the two sides of the same coin thing. It's easy to flip from demon to prophet. I don't know. Well, I wouldn't put Tucker in that category, nor J.D. Vance, who thought, who mused that Trump might be America's Hitler, right? And is now his biggest fan. These people know better. These people are just craven and opportunists. But I think there are a lot of voters who truly believe these kinds of things that are being floated around. And so people like Tucker and J.D. Vance have to appeal to those people and really buy into the cult status.

If they talk about Trump like a regular politician, that's just not sealing the deal for a lot of people. I'll say this. Cults are not appealing to me. I feel I'm very unlikely to get sucked into a cult at any point. But I do find them interesting. Very. I was deeply into that documentary a couple years ago about the cults that was the Indian cult that went to Oregon.

Yeah. Wild, wild west. Yeah. Wild, wild west. Yeah. I've seen them all. Yeah. I was wild West. Yeah. Wild, wild West. Yeah. I've seen them all. Yeah. Yeah.

I was very fascinated by that. And so I get the appeal. The Tucker thing to me was scary because I could see how people could get sucked into it. Whereas like the JD Vance speech was like, I find this to be one of the most unappealing humans I've ever encountered in my life. Yeah. And so that's like in a way less scary. That's less scary. Yeah. Yeah. Agre so that's like in a way less scary. That's less scary. Yeah.

Yeah. Agreed. JD Vance is not a charismatic person. I think he's pretty douchey. Yeah. Tucker has some douchiness, but he's very charismatic. We are so aligned on the JD thing. Just last night on our live stream, I was like, some people have gaydar and despite

being gay, I'm not very good with gaydar, but I have a good douche dar. And I was like, when JD first came with Hillbilly Elegy, I don't know what it was. I didn't read it. I didn't really look at the internet. I just, I watched like a couple clips of them, and I was like, this guy's a douchebag. I was like, he's a douche.

So I just made a snap judgment. Yeah, it was like Malcolm Godwell blink. I just made a snap judgment. I think this person is a douchebag. And so I didn't engage with Hillbilly Elegy. And I do feel vindicated by that. Oh, you're right. You were right for sure. He's real douchey. And I think the JD Vance that America met at the RNC is a bit lighter than the dark JD Vance that you're going to see a lot more of now that the RNC performance is over. So I think more of his douchiness and darkness will come out.

He can't hide it very well. All right, I was about to move on to the Dems, but I just, Kathy Young just sent me this, so I do feel like I have to share it with you to just get your snap reaction. Batya Ungar-Sargon, she writes for Newsweek and does some stuff over with Barry Weiss. She wrote this, being pro-Trump has lost its taboo, even in Dem circles. The tides have turned.

The vibe has shifted. The sincerity that was lame and cringe is now retro hot. Hipsters for Trump. Gangsters for Trump. Your parents' favorite band is back on the radio. Normies of the world unite for Trump. What is wrong with these people? What is happening?

I don't understand her, and that's not new, okay? I was in a panel with her. And listen, this is not personal. I'm sure she's nice. I'm sure she's nice. Yeah, right. No, I don't know. But I did a panel with her at the Paley Center

on social media and disinformation. And she said, in all sincerity, with a straight face, I think we need more disinformation. We've gotten too used to good information and trusting information. And I'm just like, I don't, what, what is happening? The gaslight, I don't know if it's gaslighting or if it's I'm just trying to be interesting and contrarian. I don't know what it is, but to me that feels like pretty typical of her to sort of say the thing that is completely untrue, completely not true, and that no one is thinking, but really try to say it with sincerity. I don't get it. I don't get it.

Shout out to my book editor, who I just noticed is the first reply to say it with sincerity. I don't get it. I don't get it. Shout out to my book editor, who I just noticed is the first reply to that tweet with, I can't tell you how wrong this is. He's a real one. Eric Nelson, we love you, Eric. All right, let's move on. We love Eric. Let's move on to the Dems.

Oh, good. Why don't you just go? I have a few things, but what are you thinking about? What's happening over there with the president? Well, let me just be, let me get personal for a second. You know, I've been very open about my anxiety and how I've struggled with anxiety stemming from lots of things, but additionally from politics, right? And the sort of shifting contours of politics over the last eight years. It's been personal for me to watch the party completely change, et cetera.

Watching the shit show on the left, it's not like I'm giddy or gleeful about it. I'm not, because the stakes are very high. But I don't have the anxiety of it, because it's not my house that's falling apart, right? It's someone not my house that's falling apart, right? It's someone else's house that's falling apart. And so I'm able to see it much more objectively, which is to say I have no emotional attachment to this when I say it, which is that Joe Biden has to go. He has to go. He has to go five minutes ago. In fact, he had to go two years ago when people like me were saying, we don't need to field him again. He did the job. He has to go five minutes ago. In fact, he had to go two years ago when people like me were

saying, we don't need to field him again. He did the job. He transitioned. He got Trump out. I knew I wouldn't like his policies. I mostly don't like his policies, but he's a good person. But now he's actively hurting the country. He's actively hurting Democrats down ballot and across the spectrum. This is bad. And he's playing with our democracy. And I, you know, this isn't personal to Joe, although it's getting personal. The longer he stays in, the more I'm disliking him and the people around him. But this should not be a tough decision. He can't do another four years and he can't beat Trump. That's the whole ballgame. Let's just be an honest and realistic about it. He can't do another four years and he can't beat trump that's the whole ball game let's just be an honest and realistic about it he can't accomplish either of those two missions i guess the podcast is over um no no no you're exactly right no you're exactly right okay i did a similar

rant about about how this isn't this isn't about him that's the frustrating thing about it like i hate how much they're all making it about him like he deserves it yeah no it's not this has nothing this whole conversation yeah this whole conversation has nothing to do with joe biden it's about us okay right the people put him in there because in part because we because some of us wanted him to save us from trump and to save the country right and so that was part of his coalition he had some parts of his coalition that were very ideologically motivated and others that were motivated by other reasons. Nobody put him in there because it was Joe Biden's rite of passage to ascend to this office. This wasn't about him in the first place.

It's not about him now. And so I agree. They shouldn't take it personally, but I'm starting to. I am too. And I think, did you vote for him in 2020? Of course. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Happily, by the way. Happily. And it was, did you vote for him in 2020? Of course. Yeah, of course. Yeah.

Yeah. Happily, by the way. Happily. And it was maybe my happiest vote I've ever cast, honestly. Same girl, same. However, it was my first vote for a Democrat. I took it pretty seriously. That's how bad I thought Trump was, right? Yeah. And I feel like that vote is being shoved in my face. I feel like it was taken for granted. And now it is getting personal. I'm getting mad at Democrats and Joe Biden for taking advantage of me like that, because I did it with the explicit promise that he made to be a bridge president and then hand it off to another generation. He's not doing that. And he's expressly not doing that because he doesn't think anyone else can win. No one else is showing him

that he cannot win. It's a problem. And the longer they wait on it, because he's going to go, but the longer they wait on it, the harder it's going to be to condition an environment to vote for anyone else. I want to get to the he's going to go thing, but just one more thing on the clarity of the never Trumpers on this stuff, because I have a lot of people that are mad at me about this, which I'm sure you do as well about my auntie joe but maybe not because you kind of you've maintained a more like i'm a guest here about the joe biden coalition than i do yes because i don't even like for me i got it i dislike some of his policies i like some of his policies i was always a rhino squish right so like i disagree with all the republicans i voted for right on various policies so like it

was a much more natural transition for me than for some who are more conservative than I was. Some of the people who follow me are mad about this. Yes. And they're like, you're a Republican is showing. And like, why should we listen to you? You used to be a Republican. And I'm like, that's fine. You don't have to listen to me.

That's fine. That's a fine point to not listen to me. You can choose who you want to listen to. But I do think that we have a clarity of vision about it by not having the baggage. Right. That's just like, guys, this just isn't happening. It's not happening. Let's not stop trying to post hoc, come up with some rationalizations for why it could

happen or why it should happen or whatever. It's like, it's just not happening. It's just reality. No, I actually think in addition to the clarity, we have the most credibility on this issue because we were Republicans. We did vote for him. We got, we got the appeal. We got the danger. We still have that clear sense of the dangerous stakes. Other people seem to have dropped the ball on that, seem to have lost the, you know, the point of all of this. So I actually think ourselves on the ball on that seem to have lost the you know the point of all of this so i i actually think ourselves on the back of it because we have been i think

intellectually honest and consistent about this in ways that you know other partisans cannot be i feel a little uncomfortable patting myself on the back but i appreciate that i'll accept your pat i'm not as sure you are that he's going don't know. I'm always a rain cloud. The reports from Bob Costa at CBS last night that he's upset at people, that he's isolating and he's feeling pressured. He should be feeling pressured. There is some discussion that John Meacham was writing a speech. Bob Costa was throwing water on that on the record comment from Meacham maybe this is just buying time but you're sure? You're sure it's happening? I have some sources that lead me to believe

John Meacham? Nope Not Meacham, not Halperin, not Heilman Nope Okay, well good I'll take your anonymous sources That's great, that's encouraging I needed that So for me, the Meacham thing was nervous because because me in my head, it's like, it's Nancy and it's Meacham. They need to seal the deal. And then it's Jill,

right? Like that's my triumvirate. We need to have those three on board. And so having the on the record thing from Meacham was concerning for me. One other thing that concerns me, AOC was on the internet last night. Did you see this? What was she doing over there? She did an IG Live after the speech. And I'm just like, what is AOC up to? Let's play the clip and then I'll tell you what was in the rest of the IG Live.

And I'm going to say what a lot of these folks aren't saying. I'm just going to say it. If you think that there is consensus among the people who want Joe Biden to leave, that Kamala, that they will support Kamala Vice President Harris, you would be mistaken. And I'm going to say that because if they're going to come out and say all their little things on background off the record, but they're not going to be fully honest, I'm going to be honest for them. I'm in these rooms.

I see what they say in conversations. conversations, a lot of them are not just interested in removing the president. They are interested in removing the whole ticket. She goes on to talk about the legal minefield guaranteed by Republicans. If another name is to go on the ballot how this is an elite thing a lot of elites are trying to push them out and how we're out of time and she didn't really say it but that's kind of why she's sticking with joe what do you what's happening why is it shouldn't aoc be the biggest cheerleader for changing tickets this is where i feel like an immigrant to the pro-democracy coalition i'm'm like, what is the play here?

I don't understand what's happening. So I'm hearing from, there's a wing, mostly progressives, who are talking about wanting, and they're okay with getting rid of Joe, but they're talking about wanting now an open convention. Because I think they want to feel like they've got some buy-in here, and they've at least had an opportunity to field or support a candidate more aligned with progressive values. And that's not Kamala. But the realistic Democrats know that that would be a shit show. Exposing all the chasms of the Democratic Party and then attempting to unify, you know, a day later is a fool's errand. The best and only way to do this is to say, Joe Biden's stepping down and here is your new ticket.

Period, full stop, we're not doing this again. Get on board. And I think if they do that, if it's say Kamala Shapiro, which I think would be the best choice and the easiest thing to do, I think there's so much exhaustion and frustration among Democrats through this whole process that you'd actually have a much easier time unifying around

this ticket than ordinarily. Or if that ticket had been run earlier, shouldn't AOC just be saying that though? I guess the thing, I think it's so weird to do this whole, like it's, it's very weird. It's almost very weird and we should be considering Joe and yeah she's kind of threatened it's like to me again maybe she knows her Instagram fans better than me but it's like I think that she's unappealing her to her own people like her own people should be like what

are you talking about AOC like we're gonna we need to maybe stick with this old man that doesn't remember the secretary of defense's name, right? Because you're worried about some lawsuits. Like it feels like she's off key. She's in her own head. She's, this is not reflective of where most Democrats are inside the party or even among voters. It's just not. And I, I talked to a lot of them. I might not be in the room like she is, but I'm in the room with a lot of Democrats, including on, on, you know, team Biden, team Obama, team Hillary. I talked to a lot of these people and there is consensus that he has to go. There is not consensus about who should replace him. And, and that is a, that's a problem, but it's a smaller problem than sticking with joe

biden all right i got a loud fire truck which is which means this is a perfect time to your question about how there there's gonna be some indecision within the democrats but i want to know where you fall in our new segment the the passover to kamala are you at the bottom of the coconut tree are you climbing it are you shaking the branches are you at the top are you about to wear a coconut t-shirt where are you on on the kamala i'm coconut bikini i'm fully on board the coconut train, tree, coconuts, whatever this meter is.

I think it has to be Kamala because you can't jump over A, the person that is meant to replace you. That's why she's there. And you can't jump over a woman of color. That would look so awful. And I don't think over a woman of color. That would look so awful.

And I don't think it's necessary. Listen, I won't speak for you, but I know a lot of Never Trumpers who got to a Joe Biden vote because he put someone like Kamala on the ticket and not a progressive, you know, Elizabeth Warren type, but someone that seemed sane and rational and somewhat moderate. Now you can criticize the job she's done, which isn't really a job, but you can criticize what she's done as vice president. But she is the reason I think a lot of people felt okay voting for Joe Biden. They should lean into that and use that as an asset. They buried her for the last four years and did her no service. So Democratic voters and independents and moderates are not ready for a Kamala ticket. They should have been. They should have been preparing voters for a Kamala ticket over the past four years. They didn't. So they're

sort of starting from behind the blocks. But I think they can get there if they just do it already. Rip the bandaid off, do it. I'm shaking the branches, but I'm not all the way at the top of the tree like you are at the moment. Because I just keep coming back to, wouldn't it help her to have a little brief open process? I guess I don't know. I don't share the AOC scare on this. Wouldn't a little open process be okay? What's the harm in letting her earn it?

Well, what that does is expose her to criticism from within the party. I don't think that helps her. I think what you want is a unified party, and you can't get there through an open process. Listen, I love democracy, and I love these processes, but we're too late into the game. If you really want to give her the best shot at this, you don't set her up for two or three weeks of criticism and attacks from the far left and the right and the middle. You just don't set her up that way. I think you say, Joe Biden's stepping down and here is your new ticket. Please get on board.

That's fair rebuttal. I'm not quite convinced, but I'm on board either way. The Shapiro thing. So my short list, just so people have it out there, I think Shapiro, Chris Murphy, and Mark Kelly thought about this a lot, I think are the ones that make sense. Chris Murphy? Yeah, he can talk.

She needs somebody that can talk and do interviews. Pete can do it. You don't like Chris? That's fine. Good. Pete can do it, but he can't have a gay on the ticket. Sorry. I can say it. All right. We can't have a gay on the ticket sorry i can say it all right we can't have a good i think no let me just say i think you can have a gay man on the ticket a bit easier than you can have a jewish man on the ticket in this this was where i was going cycle among democrats this is where i'm

going this is where i'm going so aren't you worried about that with shapiro because i think shapiro is the obvious pick except for it's like you finally get over this hump of all the internal turmoil and you're uniting. And then you pick Josh Shapiro and then the Palestine protests are back. I know. I know. I know. Of course, I've thought about that. There is no ideal perfect person.

I heard Roy Cooper floated about like no one knows who that is he can't also is not i can't talk you need somebody jd got picked jd has a lot is very unappealing my credentials on that are good but he's slick he'll be good on that debate stage yeah and you need somebody that can that can marshal him that's why i look at kelly astronaut he's not that particular he's not great he's not shapiro Kelly, astronaut. He's not that particular. He's not great. He's not Shapiro or Pete. He's not particularly deft with his words,

but he already had to debate Blake Masters. So he knows what it's like to debate a sociopathic smart person, and he won. So I like that. I like that he's an astronaut. Sure. Obviously, the Gabby Gifford story. Yeah.

So I like him. It's not bad from an important state. It's not bad. From an important state, it's not bad. The Shapiro thing worries me. Shapiro thing worries me. Okay. There we are. Etsy, this has been so good. I have to ask you before I lose you.

Is that Al Gore over your shoulder? What's happening there? Is that Al? That is Al. That is Al Gore and his children. Okay. So for listeners, let me just describe this. Where are you? You're in your home?

Are you in your home right now? Yeah, I'm in my studio. You have a very large horizontal portrait of what appears to be al gore and a mock turtleneck playing a game of of football uh maybe on thanksgiving or something touch football and and i don't know if you can tell the scale but this is like six feet by four feet it's giant yeah it's huge no the story there's two parts to this story. This is a picture of Al Gore playing touch football with his family a couple days after the election in 2000. As you know, it was not solved on election day. His handlers told him, go outside on your front lawn, play football with your your family it'll look like you're really

confident and of course the only thing that the media cared about when they saw this performance was that it looked so staged because it was and so that's all that they talked about was how staged this was which really went to the criticisms of his overall campaign, which is that he was not authentic. He wasn't a real person. He was plastic and packaged. Earth tones. Yes. So that's the part one of the story.

Why I have it is because this is a Pulitzer Prize winning photograph that hung inside the New York Times old building when I worked there for eight years. And when we moved buildings, they said to all of us employees, you can take the pictures off the wall. You can all take one home. So people went for like the Yankees championship photos and other, I wanted this one. You went for Gore. I wanted this one because it's such a good reminder in politics and life that authenticity goes a long way. People cannot like what you say or what you think, but if they think you mean it, it really does go a long way. So that's why that's there. Can I throw something by you? Harris Gore, 76 years old, rested, tanned, rested, ready. Massaged. Massaged. He's ready to go okay harris gore let's think about it way younger he

would be younger than either of the current uh leaders of the ticket i'm sorry i know the podcast is supposed to be over but by producer tommy vitor of pod save america is currently texting me jen o'malley dylan is on morning joe right now as we tape joe biden absolutely staying in the race. He's the best person to take on Donald Trump and prosecute the case. Not here to say this hasn't been a tough couple weeks, but blah, blah, blah. I need to reassure people, but he can win. Dolulu.

How good are your sources, Essie? Because I'm panicked right now. I think they're good. I think they're good, but no source is unimpeachable. But I think they're good. All right. I hopeimpeachable. But I think they're good. All right. I hope you're right. Everybody, I hope you have a wonderful weekend.

And I hope you find some separation from this. Go out there. Have a white claw. Go for a walk in the woods. Go to the beach. Maybe take a gummy. Whatever. Whatever it is that you do.

Read a book. Pick up some fiction enjoy that se thank you so much let's do this again soon this is great love to thanks for having me all right thanks to se cup we'll be back on monday with bill crystal unless unless joe biden drops out of the race and then i'll give you a weekend pot we'll see y'all then peace Peace. Don't let go Don't let go Just hold on loosely But don't let go If you cling too tightly

You're gonna lose control You'll barely trouble to believe it And a whole lot of space to breathe in It's so damn easy When you feel exhausted To overprotect her To love her too much And my mind goes back to a girl I met

Four years ago Who told me Just hold on loosely And don't let go If you cling to tightness You're gonna lose control Your baby needs someone to believe in And a whole lot of space to be there

So hold on loosely But don't let go If you quit too tightly You're gonna lose it You're gonna lose control The Borg Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brough.