The Bulwark Podcast - Tom Mauser and Bill Kristol: Columbine, 25 Years On

Episode Date: April 22, 2024

Tom Mauser lost his son, Daniel, in the Columbine High School massacre in 1999. He joins Tim Miller to discuss his long fight against gun violence, small victories over the NRA, and the continuing inspiration of his son. Plus, Bill Kristol on marginalizing Trump over Ukraine, how Biden could use some FDR, and the Columbia protests. show notes: https://danielmauser.com/

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enough. Your Toronto apartment should be safe and well-maintained. If it isn't and your landlord isn't responding to maintenance requests, RentSafeTO can help. Learn more at toronto.ca slash RentSafeTO. Hey JVL, it's been months since I've seen you without a screen intermediary. I'm just dying to lick your face and put my hands on you and so are you gonna come do some public events with us and human contact human contact yes yes i'm gonna do it i'm coming out of the house i'm leaving the basement for two days may 1st in philadelphia and may 15th in washington dc this the first Bulwark event where we encourage jeering

because it's Philly, people, so jeer us. Yes. May 1st. If we have a bad show, I expect the Philly crowd to boo us. Please. Or anyway, even if it's a good show, boo us anyway. We deserve it. May 1st in Philly, May 15th, 6 and I, Synagogue in Washington, D.C.

Come hang out. Go to thebulwark.com slash events to get your tickets. Thebulwark.com slash events and JVL. I just can't wait to get all up on you. Hello and welcome to the Bullwark Podcast. I'm your host Tim Miller. Big show today. Much to discuss. I'm coming at you from Austin, which is why we have this weird background on YouTube where I taped Love It or leave it last night so if you're interested in my comedy styling so you can go check out that i also was on the dispatch podcast over the weekend where they got to try to turn the tables on me so you can check that out if you want but uh today

firstly of bill crystal of course and uh then please stick around for the back half of the show over the weekend was the 25th anniversary of coline. And we have Tom Mauser, whose son died at Columbine, has been an activist for gun safety legislation over the past two decades. I'm excited to talk to him. But first, Bill Kristol, we got to do a little bit of a Ukraine victory lap for you. You, you know, believed in the great and good American people and the fact that leaders like Mike Johnson might emerge. You were hopeful. I was hopeful, but I am a little surprised at the sudden pivot by

Speaker Mike Johnson. But credit to him, credit to, I think, the Biden administration and President Biden personally. A little more public pressure might be good, but I think they did a good job of letting him do it himself and get the credit, so to speak. Some of those other Republicans in the House, Mike McCaul, the chairman of foreign relations, I think, did a lot to pave the way for Johnson and the threat of the discharge petition. So it came together for now. It's late. We paid a price. More importantly, the Ukrainians paid a real price for the delay. But I think it's an awfully good development, obviously. Certainly, there's been a delay, no doubt about that. So, you know, we don't need to do three cheers, standing ovation for Mike Johnson here. But it is something, right? I wrote

in the book this morning about this, about the contrast between what Mike Johnson chose to do and the approach of Kevin McCarthy. And we've been through this period for however many years now, where the conventional wisdom among Republicans is they've got to suck up to Trump. They've got to oppose Democrats at all costs. Giving anything into Democrats is a death sentence. And Kevin tried that approach. And he was, you know, the leopards ate his face anyway. You know, he was still defenestrated and he didn't get anything out of it.

Mike Johnson now has cut a deal, essentially, with the Democrats, you know, where now these four bills are passed. Ukraine has the delayed but needed funding. And it's going to be really hard for them to overthrow him. I mean, next year, maybe they could overthrow him. But if he has Democratic votes, then there aren't enough Republicans to get rid of him. And so that's a pretty good deal for Mike Johnson. And, you know, maybe this kind of more, which is historically, right, Bill, kind of how Congress used to work, this approach where you actually cut deals and negotiate and, you know, are collegial. Is there a little green shoot here, a little note of optimism?

There is. Here's a question, Tim. Does Mike Johnson want Donald Trump to win the presidency, actually? I mean, does he sort of have in the back of his mind that, you know what, I'm going to take half the Republican conference away from Trump. I'm going to let Joe Biden say for the next six months to the Nikki Haley, Ronald Reagan Republicans, Trump is not with you on this most fundamental issue. Mike Johnson says he's a Reagan Republican. He's not with Trump. You guys should support me. He's not going to get most, obviously, of Mike Johnson's supporters, but he can get some Republican votes. It could be a key wedge issue to pry away a few more, you know, non-Trump Republicans. Maybe Mike Johnson thinks, you know what, that way we keep the House maybe, and Trump's not president, I don't have to put up with Trump. Is that possible

that Mike Johnson is thinking that in a cunning way? I don't think he's that cunning. What I really think is that we have the Mike Johnson is the Mike Pence situation. And for all of my complaints on the sexual mores of devout evangelical Christians, and I have many complaints with evangelical movement, I think that Mike Johnson was appealed to by Ukrainian Christians and by seeing the damage in the skiff. And I think that unlike Donald Trump, he is not a person that has no, no empathy. And I think that he has some real religious belief. And I think he was a Reagan Republican, was kind of faking the MAGA thing. And I also think that he saw that the Democrats were willing to deal with him and they could

protect him. So I think it's probably that. A little bit of earnest, a little short-term savvy, more than a long-term hopeful pivot back to Reaganism or whatever, a globally-minded, conservative, strong America movement. But I'll take the smaller ball and win, too. Totally. I mean, some of the pro-Ukraine activists really did bring over evangelicals, Baptists, and people who've been in Ukraine, either Americans who've been there or Ukrainians, actually, to make the religious liberty case to Johnson. It's a counteract that the Russian propaganda, obviously, on the Christian stuff. So that I think helped. And I do think it's important going forward. It seems to me it's easier for Nikki Haley to stay where Mike Pence is and not support

Trump. I mean, this is such a fundamental issue. Mike Johnson has broken with Trump on it. Half the House Republicans, half the Senate Republicans, basically, are not with Trump on it. Much easier, I think, for Nikki Haley to not go with Trump now. And I think that gives them more of a permission structure with Pence and Haley out there for, you know, for more Republicans to, if not go to Biden, at least not support Trump. I agree with that. In Morning Shots today, the newsletter, you take a more of a forward-looking approach. You know, there's been a success here. Now, how can Democrats press the advantage? You urge Biden to maybe take a note from FDR's messaging back in the early 1940s and reference a speech that he gave following the Lend-Lease Act. Let's just play a little bit of it. Let's give people some archival audio this morning. Do not let us waste time in reviewing the past or fixing or dodging the blame of it.

History cannot be rewritten by wishful thinking. We, the American people, are writing new history today. The big news story of this week is this. The world has been told that we as a United Nation realize the danger that confronts us and that to meet that danger our democracy has gone into action. I love that. Our democracy has gone into action. What do you want Biden to take from that, Bill? I think he should probably give a major speech now. I mean, FDR, let's just point out to my friend who knows this stuff much better than I, Len Lease passed on March 11th, 1941, a very important, obviously not gesture, very important way of supporting Britain and others standing I gather, and was kind of a real statement that we are in this, we're not backing away, we're the arsenal of democracy. Obviously, U.S. troops were not committed, but it's very, in that way, quite comparable to the Ukraine situation. We're all in with our allies, short of providing troops. And that was, I think, an important signal and an important statement by FDR, kind of a moving speech if you listen to the whole thing or read it. And President Biden, I think one criticism that's somewhat fair is that he hasn't fully made the case for Ukraine and the broader case for American foreign policy in the 21st century, the contrast to Trump. He's done it at times, but it's time to lay that out. And this is a good time to take

advantage of the victory and really bring home to people this fundamental distinction. Everyone says voters don't vote on foreign policy, but I don't know, some chunk of voters are going to say this is just a 180 degree difference between the two of them. And here's Biden with the support of Mike Pence and Mike Johnson and Nikki Haley on this issue. And aren't we closer to him and are we more comfortable with him as president than Donald Trump? Yeah.

And this coalition government, that's really, and look, if you look at what happened, essentially, you have basically the entire Democratic Party, with the exception of a few, some votes on Israel, which we'll get to next, united on this with about half of the Republican Party. You wish it'd be more than half, but about half. And, you know, that was the coalition that got this passed. And Biden needs to speak to that full group, you know, I think, going ahead to the election in November and say, we can responsibly co-govern together. By the way, that's the coalition that got infrastructure passed and chips passed. And you can advance a broader story that really isolates, pun intended, Donald Trump, right?

And the kind of isolationist wing of the party as being very extreme and irresponsible and an outlier, I guess, at this point. But you have to make that case to people. You do, and there'll be a little Democratic resistance because it slightly cuts against the, every Republican in Washington needs to be thrown out and every Republican House member needs to be thrown out and every Republican House

member needs to be defeated. But here's Biden will be saying in this case, half of them have behaved responsibly. And he'll praise, obviously, Speaker Johnson if he gives such a speech. But I think that's the price you have to pay. Ultimately, those races will have their own dynamic. And it's much more important to capitalize on this moment and really try to marginalize Trump, try to marginalize MAGA. I mean, he can't really be marginalized. He's the nominee of the party, but still, nominee of a party with only half the party supporting you on a major fundamental issue,

that's not as strong as being the nominee of the party with the whole party lockstep behind you. Okay, on the Israel side of things, a lot of protests this weekend, most notably at Columbia University, a pretty horrific scene, you know, death to Jews being chanted by these protesters. Now, it's a little bit analogous to the Charlottesville situation in that, like, it's not 100% clear, like, these might be agitators, right? Like,

are they Columbia students? You know, a lot of this is happening outside the university. These massive protests, Jewish students on campus feeling unsafe, feeling like they need to leave campus, given the nature of the shout. Some of these chants are like literally pro-Hamas, like burn Tel Aviv to the ground type rhetoric. Pretty alarming. There's some examples of this also on other campuses. What can be done about this? What are your impressions?

What should the Biden administration be doing, if anything? I think the main thing that could be done is colleges and universities have to enforce their rules or create new rules against certain types of demonstrations, against encampments on campus, against microphones and bullhorns being used within, I'm making this up, obviously, 100 yards of the library or classroom buildings or dorms. I mean, there are lots of ways to damp this down that don't require changing the minds of the 100 students who were involved or even being able fully to control the people who gather outside the gates of the campus. Though I think you could also control a little bit what's happening right outside the campus in coordination with the police. The colleges and universities have been just too timid, I think. And these are college campuses.

They're supposed to be places for fun and for study and a certain amount of rule-abiding protest, obviously, but not the scenes you see at Columbia and elsewhere. That's not a college campus. And that, I think, is very legitimate for colleges to crack down on that. And they don't have to begin every statement by saying we honor and respect everyone's right to protest. I mean, fine, of course, people have a right to protest, but they don't have a right to take over a huge chunk of a college campus with microphones and bullhorns and encampments, and then harass other students or make it easier for outsiders to come and harass other students with whom they disagree. The Biden administration did put out a statement this weekend. I looked, and I did a quick scan this morning. Some of the Democrats have Adam Schiff, Jackie Rosen,

I saw there were some other Democratic senators, but I do think a fair critique of the Democrats is there should be a forceful criticism of this that is equal in tone and measure to what the type of criticism would be if there were other minority groups that were being shouted down on college campuses like this. And I think that Biden is doing the right thing. But to me, I think that's kind of the Democrats' responsibility here is to speak very clearly against this. And you've seen some of it, but I think more is more in this case. Yeah, I agree. And I do think it's the right thing to do. It really is the right thing to do, I think, for the sake of college students, for the sake of Jewish students and Jews,

honestly, in America generally, but for the sake of Jewish students and Jews, honestly, in America generally, but for the sake of all minorities, that this won't be tolerated. And politically, I do think it would help Biden. I mean, I think it's not quite fair, but I just see so many people, people I know even saying, well, this is the Democratic Party. Well, no, that's not the Democratic Party. That's a bunch of left-wing protesters who hate what Biden's done by standing with Israel. But you know how it is. You do need to go the extra mile almost to distance yourself from the people who can semi-plausibly be said to be your friends, right? And we do ask that of Republicans sometimes. Usually, we, of course,

get no positive response at all, you know, criticize Trump for having given us a neo-Nazi. But in this case, it would be wise, I think, for the administration and other Democrats to go the extra step and really making clear this is not part of the liberalism they stand for totally great okay uh short one this week bill because i want to uh spend some time with tom mauser thanks for uh doing this we'll be back next monday as always and uh up next tom mauser So landlord telling you to just put on another sweater when your apartment is below 21 degrees? Are they suggesting you can just put a bucket under a leak in your ceiling? That's not good enough. Your Toronto apartment should be safe and well-maintained.

If it isn't and your landlord isn't responding to maintenance requests, RentSafeTO can help. Learn more at toronto.ca slash RentSafeTO. All right, we're back with Tom Mauser, author of Walking in Daniel's Shoes, A Father's Journey Through Controversy, Activism, and Healing, following his son's death at Columbine, his son Daniel Mauser. You can learn more about it at danielmauser.com. Really appreciate his courage that he has been speaking out about gun safety and gun legislation ever since the Columbine massacre 25 years ago.

We're 25 years on now, and he's coming at us from, I just heard, I guess, the same house in Littleton, Colorado that you were in back in 1999. That's right. We have this little quasi connection, I've felt, as I've been kind of reading about Daniel and watching him, because I grew up, where is the house? Where are you? It's in Littleton, like near Columbine? Yeah, it's about two miles south of Columbine High School. So I grew up right on Platt Canyon there and about the same age as Daniel was,

I was going to private school, Regis, when it happened. And yet Columbine was my public school district and knew some kids there. And I've been watching all these videos of Daniel and thinking about him. And maybe you could start us off by telling the listeners a little bit about him and then we can get into the policy side of things. Sure. Daniel was a very, very shy, gentle kid. He was a Boy Scout, played piano, loved to play video games. What I most admire about Daniel was the fact that he took on his weaknesses. He was not really at all athletic, and yet he chose on his own to try out for the cross-country team.

He was so shy, and yet he joined the debate team, where he had to get in front of other people and speak. Yeah, I was wondering, so he's on the speak, was it at Columbine that he was on the debate team when he was giving speeches? Because I was kind of wondering, maybe I had encountered him. I was a speech nerd and did speech club and was watching a video of him giving fdr speech actually we have the video of it so if you don't mind i just i can maybe play a couple of seconds of him earlier in the show we're talking to bill crystal and he was referencing a fdr speech about the lend lease act and when i was going through your page your memorial page i thought it was touching that he was also doing an fDR speech about the first inaugural.

So let's listen to a little bit of that. Now we've got me saying, just relax. This is Franklin D. Roosevelt's first inaugural address given on Saturday, March 4th, 1933. I am certain that my fellow Americans expect that on my induction into the presidency, I will address them with a candor and a decision, which the present situation of our nation impels. This is preeminently the time to speak the truth, the whole truth, frankly and boldly.

This great nation will endure as it has always endured, will revive and will prosper. I was in speech competition, right, where you gave famous speeches. Is that what that was? It was for a class? Yeah. I thought it was just really appropriate, right, like that we'll tell the truth, the whole truth, frankly and boldly. And that's kind of what you decided to take on right after this happened. Talk about that about that yeah it was really an easy choice for me because about two weeks before the tragedy at columbine daniel brought home to the

dinner table to me something he had been in discussions with with other kids in the debate class he said dad did you know there were loopholes in the Brady Bill? And I just said, oh, really? I didn't really get that engaged in it. And then two weeks later, he was killed with a gun that was bought through one of those loopholes in the Brady Bill, the gun show loophole. The killers at Columbine bought three of their four guns at a gun show and purposely went to the table of a private seller so they didn't have to get put on the radar, have to fill out any paperwork. So to me, that was a sign. How could I not follow up on Daniel asking me that question? Did you know there were loopholes in the Brady Bill? Was that common? Was he interested in politics and government or was it just a,

you think it was a one-off i think it was somewhat of a one-off i mean i think he was interested in a lot of issues and he was more of a math math and science kid so yeah politics wasn't a particularly big thing for him you know we talked a bit about it around around our home but not that much so that loophole that he mentioned to you at the dinner table that kind of inspired your activism it's a quarter century later that finally has essentially been closed given the legislation that was passed in the biden administration you got to go to the white house to talk about that so talk about the importance of that and that journey it's going to be exciting that that happened but also kind of disappointing that it's taken so long, right? I don't know. Talk about how you feel about all that.

Yeah, it's a real mixed bag. I mean, we had the great joy of, in year 2000, closing that loophole in Colorado. We took it to a vote of the people. We put it on the ballot. 70% of the people voted yes to close that gun show loophole. But it's always bothered me that it still exists in most states in this nation. So it's just so common sense. And I think we got 70% of the vote because we were real clear when I was spokesman for the campaign, I would just say to people, does it make sense to you that someone who was a spouse abuser or a felon could walk into a gun show and at one table they couldn't buy a gun because they had to go through a background check oh but they can go to the table of a private seller and no background check no paperwork does that make sense and i think people get it no it doesn't make any sense at all what do you attribute then i mean since you've been kind of on the front

lines of this fight like to the like overall lack of action? I mean, there are these positive green issues, like you said, to Colorado, there's been some positive movement, particularly lately in the Polis administration. at the time when combine happened it was such a it just felt like such a black swan a one-off to me that you know the debate is raging and the you know i was kind of in this view of like oh there may be different things that could make sense right uh the gun show loophole closing seems obvious i was kind of compelled at the time by the good guy with the gun theory which has been just absurdly disproven in the intervening years but like when it was a one-off situation i was like oh maybe it would have been better if there was a security guard there with a gun. But as these shootings have piled up and as you've had to go out there and continue a campaign year after year, what do you attribute to just the resistance to so many of these

common sense reforms? I think it's a combination of things. I think part of it is fear. Part of it is really driven, I think, by the gun industry. I mean, they're a business. They want to sell more guns, and they always have to find a way. So they turn it into an issue of freedom. And that's not what it's about. And also, I think they've just really tried to demonize those of us who are trying to fight for some stronger gun laws, we're so far from anything like confiscation, the way they build up fear about confiscation. And unfortunately, I think the

media plays a little bit of a role in this, that this is sometimes boiled down to being you're either pro-gun or anti-gun. I am not anti-gun. I am anti-gun violence. And frankly, some of the things that we're doing law-wise, we're really just scratching the surface of this problem. We're going to continue to have an awful lot of gun deaths in this country. can, especially things like the red flag law, age of purchase, waiting period, things like that, to reduce the toll, certainly. But yeah, the resistance is really frustrating. I think it's resistance especially is built on a lot of cliches, a lot of dismissive cliches. And unfortunately, a lot of people fall for that. And then you add to that the fact that this has become such a polarized issue now. One party says, let's have stronger gun laws, and the other says, no. And this should not be a partisan issue. It should not.

In that community, Littleton, it's not like some liberal community, you know. Back then, Tom Tancredo was the representative, I think, at the time during Columbine, right? That's right. And even within the families of Columbine, you know, the representative, I think, at the time during Columbine, right? That's right. And even within the families of Columbine, we had very different opinions about the gun issue. What was that like with the other parents? I mean, I would assume that it was very supportive, but I don't know. What was it like in the years after that? You mean on the gun issue?

Yeah, yeah. And how much to speak out and what to do versus to talk about it versus not. Well, I would say that back at that time, we knew there were differing opinions. And yet, when I brought the issue of closing the gun show loophole to the group of families, because we were meeting on a regular basis to build a new library, tear out the old library and call themine and build a new one. When I brought this issue of Amendment 22 to close the gun show loophole, I think almost every one of those parents signed the petition. So they understood that part of it. Some of them weren't really willing to go beyond that. But I think we kind of respected each other's opinions on it.

And you took a lot of heat for that. I mean, like there were protests outside your home. Is that right? In the years that follow? Yeah, there was a protest outside of my that. I mean, like there were protests outside your home. Is that right? In the years that follow? Yeah, there was a protest outside of my home. And yeah, hate mail, nasty, nasty mail, intimidation, threats. Yeah. And I found out from other activists like myself, it kind of goes with the territory.

Right. They're trying to bully you. That's even happening to this day as the local kind of even more extreme version of the NRA in Colorado is run by this guy, Dudley Brown. And they're still out there trolling you and attacking you. Are there other folks that that's worked on? Do you think that there's been silencing of families because people are just afraid to deal with these guys? I'll give you one example. And it's what really, in a way, kept me in this fight. And it was late 99. I got a call from somebody from Massachusetts. There'd been a mass shooting there with an assault rifle. And the woman asked me, she indicated that their family was thinking of speaking out publicly

against assault weapons. But she asked me the question, do you get a lot of pushback? You know, what is that like? And I had to be honest with her. Yeah, there's pushback, there's hate, but you know, it's an important cause. And then she said, well, one of my brothers lives in Arkansas, so he's really concerned about this. And we never did hear from that family. They didn't speak out. And I think that's the point. I feel that to some extent, I'm speaking for those who feel that they just can't get into this issue because there is a lot of pushback. I'm just wondering, in some ways it's kind of crazy to me that you're still in Littleton.

I don't know. It's hard to – it's impossible for me to put myself in your shoes, but I just think about all of that, right? You think about, you know, having to drive by Columbine, there are protests outside your house. Why did you decide to stick in, stay in this fight, stay in Littleton? What is it about, you know, that comes from inside? Yeah, I mean, I like the community that we're in. To me, there was nothing wrong with that school or that community, although we couldn't send our two daughters to Columbine more because of us, not because I thought it was unsafe.

But I like the community. I like the house I'm living in. Put a lot into the place, and there was nothing wrong with this home. So why should I leave it? I was listening to another one of your interviews, and you kind of described yourself as said that we're just a normal family that had normal interests and that you were kind of introverted and this was not something that was natural to you. Talk about that kind of transformation, kind of how you dealt with this, you know, how this upended your life.

Yeah, you know, one way that it upended it, I tell people that even though I'm an introvert, I also have a very active sense of humor. I'm a great joke teller. And I had a reputation at conferences in the transit field that I worked in, of doing humorous slideshows. And I've done them here in Colorado at conferences. And I've actually been asking other states to go at their conferences and do a funny slideshow. I like making people laugh. And then Columbine happened. And all of a sudden, I found myself, I wasn't making people laugh. When I spoke to audiences, I was making them cry. That part was a really tough part for me. Now, even though I was an introvert, when I was there doing the humorous slideshows, I'm sort of a different persona. I'm kind of in control and, yeah, make people laugh.

Do you have a favorite joke right now? Or is joke telling in the past? Do you have a dad joke? Oh, no. I return to it. I very much return to it. It took a few years to really get comfortable doing it again because I knew that some people would say, oh, gee, you know, he's a grieving father. You know, what is he doing this for?

For me, that's part of the healing. Yeah, for sure. Going back. And the way I really look at it is, what would Daniel want? Would he want me to have my total life completely changed and just in deep grief and not able to go on? No, he wouldn't want that. And that doesn't mean that I don't grieve and that I don't have, I still have problems when I speak publicly. Even 25 years later, I get choked up sometimes, you know, a little bit of a sob. But no, I think

Daniel would want me to return to that life. And by honoring him in the way that I do, I feel that kind of goes with it, that I've returned to that life, but I've also reminded the world who Daniel was. I agree with that. I just think it's so important. That's one reason why I wanted to have this conversation is the right thing to do is to talk about and remember and humanize the people that were victimized by all these shootings, right? Like rather than obsessing over the killers and the hopes that that will,

well, A, they deserve that, but B, in the hopes that that will help make people think about this thing differently. If you're silencing all that and putting that away and putting it in a box where it's a shameful place, right, then that doesn't, people should be forced to be confronted with it. Right, they should be forced to be confronted with it right they should be and i think especially someone who you know is a very lost teenager i've heard from a number of people through the website and through youtube saying that they kind of at one point sympathized

with with the killers that they were also kind of loners and lost, mad at the world. And they told me that by reading the website, they had a little bit of understanding of the other side, that they were focused too much reading about the killers and identifying with them. I think it's great when they see the victims and understand that side of it. Yeah, that website's danielmauser.com. What do other, you know, parents, obviously, this has just been so expanded now, you know, after all these, and even in Colorado, Q and other shootings there, but obviously Parkland and

Uvalde. I'm like, this is macabre, I guess, but it's like, you're kind of like an elder statesman at this point of this, like, because you're talking to these other parents, right? Like, do you feel an obligation to kind of, to do do that or is that just too much of a burden i don't know it's hard for me to imagine yeah a little bit of a burden but you know in a way sort of i need to bring them along i need them to see that i'm still doing okay and that you can do this and still be okay and frankly another part of it is that as, unfortunately, we have more of these tragedies, we have more people stepping forward and speaking out. And we want to encourage that because people do kind of relate to that. They kind of see that

it's not just a story in the news. These are real people. And what's also meant for me is that if you go back 10 and 15 years ago, in the Colorado legislature, there were two of us pretty much who were doing 80% of the testifying. Wow. Really? Really. Today, we have many more people who've stepped forward and joined the board of Colorado Ceasefire and some of the other organizations in our coalition, and they're going down to the Capitol and testifying. Used to be we were greatly outnumbered by our opponents in testifying. Now, today, it's the reverse. We tend to very much outnumber them. So, it's kind of lightened the burden on me because I don't feel that obligation to be testifying all the time because other people are willing to do it. There has been a significant amount of progress in Colorado. I think it's probably worth talking

about that a little bit with the red flag laws and what has happened and what do you think are the most important things that have passed and like most important outstanding policies? Well, you know, we have raised the age for purchasing a long gun from 18 to 21. We have a waiting period. Another important one that people just aren't aware of, I think, is that we've made it, as with a few other states, right now, of course, if you're a felon, you can't purchase a firearm. But if you're guilty of a misdemeanor, you can still purchase. But now in Colorado, if you were guilty of a misdemeanor that involved violence, for five years, you can't purchase a firearm.

That's common sense because studies show that if you commit a violent misdemeanor, there's a much higher probability that it'll get worse. Right. A lot of times those are felonies that have been downgraded. Yeah, they've been plea bargained down. We have a waiting period. But I think really one of the most significant is the red flag law. I think that one is so important, not so much because of potential for mass shootings, but especially with suicides. Domestic, yeah.

I just love taking on the ridiculous arguments of my opponents. They often have said, you know, quit passing these laws that just punish the law-abiding citizen. Deal with the people who are the real danger. Right. Well, that's what red flag does. Okay, deal, yeah. Yeah, okay. here's someone who's shown signs like the aurora theater shooter they didn't know what to do with them they knew he was

a danger they couldn't do anything now you can with red flag and yet my opponents still opposed the red flag law i mean it does what they you know said we should be doing so and that horrible shooting at the the gay bar in colorado springs it was just such a prime example of this and it's tragic that that had to happen in order to spur this but it's just like there were so many different red flags and the local sheriff's department down there just didn't act on it didn't act on it and then we followed up by by saying well how did he get a hold of high capacity magazinesacity magazines, given that they're not legal in Colorado? And he said, well, I don't know, but didn't get them in my county.

Well, we did some research. We went to, I think, about 32 gun stores in his county, El Paso County, and found that roughly half of them were selling high-capacity magazines in violation of the law. So either we're going to have respect for the law, or we're not going to have any sanity when it comes to gun laws. What about federally? What's next? And you're with the White House. And actually, just talk about what that was like being at the White House for this last week.

It was very satisfying. I think back to the election of 2000, where the NRA said, you know, if George Bush gets elected, we will have an office in the White House. Well, now we instead have an office of gun violence prevention in the White House. So to me, that's a really big step. We're talking about prevention. And my message when I was back in D.C. last week was, thank you. It's great that we have this. So glad to see that we've essentially closed the gun show loophole and required more background checks. And yet at the same time, come on, it took 25 years after Columbine for this to happen. We shouldn't have to wait another 25 years for significant legislation. Obviously, red flag laws.

What other stuff are the top priorities, would you say, in the gun safety space from a federal perspective? I think federal and state, and maybe it's probably better carried out more at the state level. But I think a really important one is the licensing of buyers. If you really want to get serious about gun trafficking, because that's one of the biggest problems we have, is gun trafficking. That's how people who aren't eligible to buy a gun often get their gun is through straw purchases and gun trafficking. And it's hard to get a hold of that if you really can't do the tracking of who's making the purchases, who's making the

multiple purchases. And licensing of those buyers of firearms is a really good way to do that. Missouri used to have that. They used to have to have a license in Missouri, and then they dropped that requirement, threw it away, and their gun deaths went up. Connecticut did the opposite. They added it and their gun deaths went down. That's another one of those common sense things. And I realize it just, it scares those who say, oh, this is, no, this is an infringement on my rights. No, it isn't. It's doing something positive.

Yeah, there's a lot of areas you have to get licensed for. Okay, it's not that unique. I think politically, I'm glad this happened in Colorado. Politically, I've been really ringing the bell about the age requirement. We have a lot of problems with gun deaths in the countryside. This is probably not going to solve a lot of the individual murders. But at least with regards to these mass school shootings, a 16 year old, 18 year old, it should be illegal for them to have a high-capacity weapon. There's no reason for them to have one outside of a gun range, you know, with supervised by a parent. It's insane. I think that this is a 90-10 issue.

I think that Democrats should be able to run on this. You can imagine the ads. And so, to me, that one, I think, is just so critical. It is. I mean, the brain is just not developed fully yet. And an 18-year-old boy, you know, and opponents will say, oh, but we're okay with them serving in the military and having a firearm. Yes, that's right, under controlled conditions. You know, they don't take that assault rifle back to the barracks with them. You know, it's locked up. They know where the weapon is. They know where the ammunition is.

It's a very different kind of thing. I've always felt like the high-capacity magazines are another one that is potentially fruitful. I think both politically and passable and legally, it kind of hits all the spots because it is kind of hard to, I mean, I guess you can lump high-capacity magazines into the Second Amendment, but you're really starting to strain your argument that they were thinking about that. Have you done any advocacy on that issue? Oh, definitely. And we outlawed the high-capacity magazines in 2013 in Colorado. We limited the magazines to 15 rounds. You could even sell me on six, probably. If you can't take down those intruders coming to your home, I don't think we have home intrusions

of 10 to 20 people. I mean, if you really want to get serious about it, I'd say even go down to 10. These are not combat conditions that we need to have the high-capacity magazines. You don't need 10 shots to kill a deer. You're not much of a hunter if you're using an assault rifle with 20 rounds. That's true. That's true. What's next for you? I mean, this was kind of a big moment. Where do things go from here?

You might have earned a retirement, Tom. I don't know. Pass the baton? Yeah, I would say after 25 years. Like I said, I'm testifying less. Other people have stepped forward. And I'm not getting any younger. I'm 72. I'm thinking that this is, you know, not certainly something I'm going to get out of, but, you know, maybe a little bit different role. speaking at churches and other groups with the goal of getting more people involved. One of the main things that I sort of preach is that in my movement, we do way too much preaching to the choir. Within our own silo, our own echo chamber, we're talking about why we've got to make these changes.

And we have to get out more to all those people in the middle. I mean, the reality is in America, the majority of Americans support and want their right to bear arms. The reality also is that more than half of Americans agree with the need to have restrictions on that right to bear arms. So a lot of people in the middle, we need to reach more of those people in the middle. Although frankly, I don't get a lot of opportunities to do that. Normally when I speak, I'm preaching to the choir. Although, frankly, I don't get a lot of opportunities to do that. Normally, when I speak, I'm preaching to the choir. I want to find more opportunities where we get both sides of the argument together. We did that at my church a few years back, where a concealed weapons

instructor and I spoke in front of my church. The problem was, we had our church members who were very much on my side. He didn't get any of his people there. So, it really wasn't as good a discussion as it could have been. But we need to talk through these things. We really do. Yeah, I agree with that. And message, too. I think sometimes people in the gun safety movement are hesitant to even try to message in red areas. There are some counter examples of this but right but i you're talking about the middle and i think the board kind of qualifies as a middle but i think even in more red areas again these issues that we've been talking about

21 year limit making sure people have been you know had crimes committed misdemeanor violent crimes i think if messaged in the right way and talked about the right way, there's going to be a lot of people that in Georgia and in Florida, and look at what happened in Florida after Parkland, right? Some of the momentum got lost from that. But I mean, after Parkland, it was Rick Scott that signed the red flag law. I think that if with the consistency of message and credible messengers and you know speaking to the broader elements of the gun restrictions i think that there really is more progress that can be had even among pretty conservative audiences i i agree and i think we have to

keep sort of the extremes out of this argument you know because indeed the other side it doesn't want to have that discussion and likewise people on people on my side who, for example, are the ones who say, you know, we need to get rid of the Second Amendment. I mean, come on, folks. If that's your goal, we're not going to get anywhere. That just sets off the other side when you have talk like that. But you really can win more people. But we really have to have more of a common ground. And we have to get it away from the partisan side of it, too.

I would have been remiss if I don't mention, so the rest of your family, Daniel, had two sisters. One, a younger sister that was at the time, what, I guess in middle school during Columbine? Yeah, she was in middle school. And then you've since adopted another daughter from China, Madeline. How's the rest of the family doing? And, you know, what's it just been like over these last couple decades? Well, you know, it's certainly having adopted our daughter. That was a really important part of the healing process, I think, for us. You know, and it's not a matter of replacement for Daniel. It's just, essentially, what we said was that this was a way to give time

to a child that we otherwise would have given to Daniel if he had lived. I think it was a good healing process for my wife and I, and also for Daniel's younger sister. She was very supportive of the adoption. Well, I really admire you guys for that. I admire you for the way you've been stalwart in this fight ever since that tragedy. It was a formative day for me, but obviously nothing like what you guys had to go through. So I appreciate that you guys have been the ones taking on that burden and people can go to danielmauser.com, learn more about your family. There's some beautiful pictures and videos and it was a real treat for me to get to learn more about him and kind of reflect back on Littleton

and everything that's happened. So I appreciate that, Tom. I appreciate you coming on the Bullwark podcast. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. All right. Let's stay in touch and we'll see you next time through Denver. We'd love to give you a hug. All right. Let's do it. All right. I appreciate that. And to see one of those PowerPoints. I want to see one of those PowerPoints as well. All right. Sounds good. Thank you, everybody. Yeah. Thank you, Tom Mouser. And to see one of those PowerPoints. I want to see one of those PowerPoints as well. All right. Sounds good. Thank you, everybody. Thank you, Tom Mouser.

Thanks to Bill Kristol. We'll be back tomorrow with another edition of the Borg Podcast. See you all then. Peace. Awesome hair raving. Eyes are flashing blue. All the living that you're saving. Won't buy your dreams for you Cut yourself a columbine

Tear it from the stem Now breathe upon the petals fine And throw them to the wind Watch the petals dancing See them twirl and sing Now all your pride and prancing How much does it mean?

Watch the petals start to fly And then come falling down I hear the wind begin to cry As she sees I'm touched to ground Oh lady, like a flower fair Someday you'll have to fall, and you can find me standing there, to catch you if you call. Tossing hair, raving Eyes are flashing blue All the living that you're saving Won't buy your dreams for you.

The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.