The Bulwark Podcast - Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham

Episode Date: January 21, 2025

Trump tried to pencil out literal words in the Constitution and then freed 1,500 violent insurrectionists—while the media attempted to normalize it all. Meanwhile, much attention is being paid to Elon's salute, and not enough to the facts that he has an office at the White House, he's a government contractor, and paid a quarter of billion dollars to get Trump elected. Plus, most of Trump's other executive orders were pissy and petty, the 80s can no longer be called the decade of greed after Monday's Hunger Games vibe, and the Democrats are going to have a hard time resisting a risky 'eat the rich' path. Tom Nichols joins Tim Miller. show notes  Tom's piece from Monday on the police responding to Jan 6 Tweets about the price of eggs v attending the inauguration, which Tom referenced LAST DAY: Make The Bulwark your home for coverage of Trump 2.0. Get 2 months FREE on an annual subscription of Bulwark+ now for exclusive content, ad-free commentary and more:

Hello and welcome to the Bullwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. There are 1,460 days left in the second presidency of Donald Trump. We have survived day one, which was a shameful, an epic sham that was best summed up by the snapshot of Trump forgetting to put his hand on the Bible while he repeated an oath to the constitution he had no intention of upholding. Who to discuss such a farce with? Obviously the podcast House curmudgeon, Tom Nichols of the Atlantic, new audio book out about the death of expertise. Think we can throw some dirt on the expertise grave. Tom, how you doing? Hanging in there. You know, yesterday was everything we expected it to be and then

some. But you know, we've got to be measured and parcel out. Well, I mean, in the sense of we've got to parcel out our our our reach over time so that we don't burn out. All right, you parcel because I am just about ready to stroke out today. I have such a lengthy list of things to do old man, yell at cloud with you about the Google doc and this amount of scrolling required to get to everything. We're not gonna be able to,

because as far as I'm concerned, basically every single person involved in yesterday brought shame on themselves at some level. I think the only honorable choice was to abstain or protest. So Karen Pence and Michelle Obama, shout out to you. But given the extent of my rage, I can't really decide where to start. So I'm giving you dealer's choice. What set you off the most yesterday, either in the inauguration itself or the actions that came after?

The pardons. I thought the inauguration, dare I say, it was low energy. The first time around, he tried for sweeping. He let Stephen Miller or whoever writes this clunky prose to indulge himself the first time. This time around, it was like a rally talk. We're going to call it the the first time. This time around, it was like a rally talk. You know, Ev, we're gonna call it the Gulf of America, and, you know, I'm gonna, you know,

I don't agree with Hillary Clinton on much, but when she sort of had to look down and laugh when he said that, I was kind of right there with her. I thought, you know, as you say, it was a shameful exercise. When I looked at this whole group of potential nominees, I thought, what a difference from eight years ago.

I mean, this is now just, I mean, this is now the Z-list finally has made it through all the gates and there's nobody to tell them that they can't be Secretary of Defense or Secretary of HHS. I mean, that was all stuff I expected. I mean, it was depressing to see it. But then the pardons, which I think were, you know, you knew he was gonna do some of this. Even I was surprised at the breadth of the pardons, including the people who got years for violence

against police officers and people who were locked up for a seditious conspiracy. I mean, it really said to you that the rule of law, if not dead, is now under every bit of the assault that we've all been mourning about. Yeah, let's look at the pardons a little bit. So it was just, I believe last week, maybe it's two weeks ago, it's hard to tell,

I'm aging in dog years, but the vice, now Vice President JD Vance said that if you committed violence on that day, obviously you shouldn't be pardoned. Obviously, he said. To throw out a couple of the people that were pardoned yesterday, David Dempsey was convicted of assaulting police officers with pepper spray, a metal crutch, wooden and metal poles, sentenced to 20 years in prison.

Daniel Rodriguez was convicted of using a stun gun and plunging it multiple times into Michael Fanon's neck. Brian Sicknick's attacker was pardoned. Their family put out a statement they sent to me this morning. His brother sent me this morning that's saying that there are no words that adequately describe the pain of losing Brian and the suffering we have endured every day since. Never to end, these pardons are intended to end a grave national injustice that has been perpetrated on the American people and to begin the process of national reconciliation.

It's up to the American people to decide whether this purpose will be achieved. Michael Fanon had a little stronger words than that. I want to play that for you. Thanks, America. This feels like a betrayal to you. Oh, I have been betrayed by my country. Rest assured. I have been betrayed by my country and I've been betrayed by those that supported Donald Trump, whether you voted for him because he promised these

pardons or for some other reason. You knew that this was coming, and here we are. Appropriate sirens in the background here in New York. It's pretty fucking outrageous that the people that attacked Brian Siknik and Michael Fanon were pardoned. Yeah, the guy who said, I have murder in my heart. You know, there was a whole bunch of them. It's a Robes gallery. And the idea that this was like, you know, some tourists who got swept up in the heat

of the moment is ridiculous, but it also shows you again, the JD Vance, the one time he said something sensible that went by the boards pretty fast. Obviously you don't pardon the violent ones. So he did and commuted the rest of them and basically turned them loose on American society with a message that says rioting and sedition and attacking the constitution and seditious conspiracy are no longer a big deal in the United States, at least for a while. Yeah.

On the seditious conspiracy, Enrique Tarrio, another person that was pardoned, he was being held at a medium security prison in Louisiana. He was being processed out last night. In addition to organizing the Proud Boys effort to disrupt the transfer of power on January 6th, he actually wasn't able to join the people that he had organized because he was already arrested on January 4th, two days earlier. He and a group set fire to a Black Lives Matter banner that they had seized from a historic black church in DC. They were also part of a group that got into a fight outside another black church. Four people were stabbed.

During the inauguration yesterday, Trump was talking about how he was chosen by God. And then a few hours later, he pardoned and got released for prison, somebody who was convicted of seditious conspiracy and convicted of attacks on multiple black churches. Pete Slauson That whole business about, well, God spared me for a reason, you know, I'm sure that other presidents have thought that they have been placed in a position of unthinkable authority and with some kind of divine purpose. But presenting yourself as the Messiah during your inaugural is a little on the creepy side. Let me say one more thing about the pardons, which is, you know, yesterday I wrote a piece,

appeared in the morning, about reminding people what all of these, this was before the pardons, by the way, this was first thing in the morning, reminding people what all of these rioters and insurrectionists and seditionists had done to police officers. So I just am very curious about the police unions and the police officers who supported Donald Trump, who think he backs the blue, who talk about the thin blue line, the FBI agents, the Justice Department officials, the people that probably were pretty sympathetic to Donald Trump's law and order message when it was aimed at George Floyd rioters. But now I'm kind of curious, you know,

I'll be curious to see the two step that the law and order folks make about a mass pardon of people who were duly convicted, many of them by Trump judges, by Trump appointed judges who put these guys in the slammer. This wasn't a bunch of like, you know, liberal vegan gender studies, tribunals that locked these people up. Some of these people were actually appointed to the bench by Donald Trump.

Others were convicted by a jury of their peers. And I guess, I guess we really are in that strong man saying, for my friends, everything, for my enemies, the law. Are you ready for my dark thought here? Do you mind as well get there? The comps, the comp unions are kind of on the side of the rioters, I think. Some of them probably were, but on the other hand, just as in, I think when I listened to veterans that I used

to teach, you know, talking about combat, that doesn't overcome your loyalty to the guy next to you, you know, under attack. And I thought, and I just wonder, I mean, sure, they may have agreed with some of the things the rioters believed in, but I doubt they agreed with, you know, smashing in the heads and tasing the person who shared the same uniform standing right next to them. Maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe America is different in a way that I don't understand anymore. As I said in the article yesterday, my dad was a cop in the 50s. My brother was a cop for years from the 60s to the 80s. The notion that whatever your other political feelings, people attacking your brother and sister police officers is a pretty hard line. But I guess if you think that's okay, then you think it's okay. Maybe my only positive thing of the whole show, Pam Hemphill was one of the defendants for her behavior on January 6th.

She pled guilty. She put out a statement saying that she would not be accepting the pardon. She was guilty and it was Trump who should be held accountable. Interesting. Good for Pam. One person with integrity. I guess my final thing on the pardon topic is when you look at upcoming threats, I mean, I think that there are, and we're going to go through the plans that Trump has and the

new incoming administration has on immigration and other matters. But I worry about as much about rogue actors feeling empowered as I do about the actual administration. To me, like that is one of the biggest threats of all this, right? Like the incentive is to just do whatever you want and figure that you'll get pardoned on the back end if you got a MAGA hat on. Listen, that's the message Trump is sending. Do whatever you want and figure that you'll get pardoned on the back end if you got a MAGA hat on. Listen, that's the message Trump is sending. Do whatever you want, do it in my name,

do it on my, whether Trump means to send this message or not, and I think he does, but let's be charitable and say, whatever he intended, the message will be, as you just said, you can do whatever you want as long as you have a MAGA hat on. I mean, there was one of these guys that was pardoned that he goes in when he was being sentenced and he gives this, he does this little, you know, song and dance, this little kabuki of contrition. And then on the way out, he pumps his fist, Trump won. Well, you know, he's vindicated

now. He's, he's feeling pretty good. All you had to do was hold out long enough, hope that the electoral college took the bounce in your direction, and suddenly you're not an insurrectionist doing 17 years or 10 years or eight years. You're a free man with a pardon and practically an apology from the president of the United States. Why wouldn't you do it again? All right. That was a good place to start. I get to go next. Yeah. Can we just go to the bar now? Yeah. We're going to play a game. It's kind of like to start. I get to go next. Can we just go to the bar now? We're going to play a game. It's kind of like a deal. You get to pick one, I get to pick one. We'll go back and forth. I think that to me, probably the most outrageous thing yesterday

was about birthright. That was the birthright citizenship. That was my number two pick. Okay, great. Well, we're aligned. I want to read for people. If they don't have the little pocket constitution handy, I would like to read for people the first sentence of the 14th Amendment of the United States Constitution. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are citizens of the United States and the state wherein they reside. All persons born. It is.

I don't know, Tim. That's kind of shaky. You know, son, the Constitution, like the Bible, says a lot of things. And do we really, you know, I mean, this is ridiculous. It literally says what it says. And I'm sorry, you know, this was going to be your descent into darkness. Go ahead. No, I was just going to say, this is fucking insane.

The people that go waving around the constitution are not objecting to this as insane. It is as clear as day in there. You might not like it, but guess what? Liberals don't like the second amendment. Could Joe Biden have gone in on the first day of 2021 and said, I have an executive order repealing the second amendment and you can no longer buy guns in this country until it's adjudicated through the court system. Like, would anybody have been on board with that?

The executive order. They lost their minds. Yeah. The executive order includes people, by the way, born by parents who are legally in America. It doesn't even include, it isn't even just about people that are here illegally. Usha Vance and Kamala Harris would both not be citizens of the United States under the

executive order that Trump put forth, at least until they got married. Everyone's just like, oh, whatever. No worries. Grand Paul. It's not going to change anything. It's the audacity of a president who says, well, I mean, it's not even the audacity. It's the callousness to his oath of a president who says, I will uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States, and then takes a Sharpie and scratches out some words. The Constitution as I prefer it.

And that's really astonishing to say there are just parts of the Constitution that I don't think are operable. Of course, the Supreme Court would normally make that decision, but this Supreme Court seems to be more than happy. At least six members of this court seem happy to let Trump be the chief arbiter of originalism. Not even this Supreme Court is going to go along with this executive order, right? You know, Tim, there's a part of me that said this Supreme Court, how many times I've said

this Supreme Court, even this court won't dot dot dot. So you know, I don't think so either, but it encourages a disrespect for the Constitution among ordinary American citizens to say, oh, well, you know, maybe that part about birthright citizenship is just bullshit and it can be ignored. And I guess I feel this because I wouldn't be here. My parents, my father in particular, you know, was born illegitimately. How do we not say that anymore?

Do we say out of wedlock to a single mom, whatever it was, you know, in Boston in 1918 and whisked off to be adopted by a family. I mean, none of us would be citizens because of course that's what America is about, making sure that people born here can't stay here. It's really crazy. And it just shows you that this nativism,

this performative nativism is what this movement's all about. You notice nobody's talking about eggs anymore. And eggs have gotten expensive, by the way. The avian flu, like there's an egg shortage, and eggs have spiked in price everywhere. But you know, now that Trump's in, we don't talk about eggs anymore. It's not what it was about.

Yeah. The reason why it makes me upset, outside of the fact that it's just fundamentally un-American, is- And stupid. I'm sorry, but it's just that there's a-'s just fundamentally un-American is and stupid and I'm sorry, but it's just there's a it's fundamentally un-American But there's also just a flat stupidity to this that says well it here. I'm gonna sign an executive order saying You know the words a and and the no longer operating this and this is related to my whole problem with yesterday

it just as stagecraft and a statecraft which I alluded to at the top. I it's just all a farce. It was a farce and Donald Trump knows it's a farce, right? He doesn't put his hand on the Bible. He gives a speech. That's kind of normal, kind of, I want to get into the speech a little more. I don't want to give him normal because there are some things that

were pretty ridiculous in there. And then he gives another speech an hour later where he's kind of like what I really wanted to say, but I knew I couldn't for the TV show portion of the inauguration, what I really wanted to say is that Adam Kinzinger is a crybaby. Like that's really what I wanted to talk about. You know, Trump is not treating it with any seriousness. It's totally fake for him. He has no intention of upholding the constitution.

We know that because, you know, the last time he was in the Capitol, he was sicking a mob on it. I guess he didn't go actually, but the last time there were Trump supporters in the Capitol, he sent them there to attack people and to disrupt the constitutional transfer of power. And hours after he accepted it, he says, I'm going to sign this executive order that just totally rejects something that is plain text inside the constitution.

And yet we're all supposed to do this. Oh, battle him of the Republic where he's going to play. All the dignitaries are going to stand there and we're going to have salutes from the military. Like, fuck all of this. Why is everybody going along with all of this? Tom, you are a protector of norms. Am I wrong?

Fuck it all. I was like, why? Why give him this? Why is everybody going along with all of this? Tom, you are a protector of norms. Am I wrong? Fuck it all. I was like, why? Why give him this? I again, I would say that what he got was actually pretty low key. You give it to him, and you're gonna play Hail to the Chief and all that stuff. Because Donald Trump is not the last president of the United States. We don't think we don't think I'm pretty, you know, we're, we're gonna hold on to that for so far. I have always argued that the institutions

and institutions includes the practices, the pageantry, all that stuff, belongs to us, the American people. If one man happens to be unworthy of it, and Trump's not the first one not to be worthy of hail to the chief, but he is astonishingly unworthy of it. He's not the first one not to be worthy of hail to the chief but he is astonishingly unworthy of it.

He's the unworthiest. Unworthy, you know. Andrew Johnson maybe. Well, although I suppose if we're going to get into the game of horrible alternatives that's a good choice but I think we hold on to these things because once they're lost they're lost forever and you can't just put them back. And so you grit your teeth through some of this. Are they not lost forever? I don't think so. I take a longer view than that. I don't know. They're not lost forever yet. They're not lost. I mean, it is the first time

that we have that we have had an inauguration for somebody who attempted a coup. Yeah, of a crime, previous convicted felon And of a felon. I, the felony actually I care less about than, cause you could have an honorable felon, you know, somebody got a DUI as a felon and then ends up becoming the president who, you know, is whatever. Like he instigated an attack on the constitution in the building where he took the oath that he obviously doesn't care about. It's a sham, right? It's a sham.

It's a sham. And I think what a lot of folks are getting wrong about this whole period, you know, like you can see the Democrats now going through the agonizing about how do we talk to people about, you know, eggs and housing costs and policy and everything about this election and this inauguration and this first day

tells you it wasn't about policy. None of that stuff really mattered. That the best economy in 35 years didn't matter. That this for a hardcore of people was Trump's project of vindication. The people that were so humiliated by losing in 2020 that they felt like they had to win one to prove it was possible And and vengeance and Trump now is just none of this stuff is gonna help people

I love the executive order he put out he said I direct the departments of the United States To think of ways to lower costs for the American public. I was like, okay. Thanks boss When nobody was gonna think of that until you put it into an executive order, but we'll get right on it. I mean, this is all make believe and play time. But I think that, you know, let me try and find a silver lining. The thing that also struck me about the past day is just the incredible amount of incompetence that seems to be congealing at that end of Pennsylvania Avenue. I mean, there's a lot of damage incompetent and really bad people can do.

But I think we're going to get a look at what it would have been like eight years ago if there hadn't been people putting pool noodles and baby bumpers on all the corners of government. I'm kind of ready for that. I mean, that's why I'm not as depressed as you might have, you know, you might think the day after it's, I'm kind of ready for that. I mean, that's why I'm not as depressed as you might think the day after. So I'm kind of like sitting back and saying, listen, people voted for this.

They want to floor it over the edge of the cliff. Have at it. But I think they didn't really expect Trump to lower prices or any of that stuff. And I think too, we have to remind ourselves that for all the talk about the threat to democracy that is now coalescing rapidly before our eyes, somehow millions of Democrats just didn't think it was that big a deal and didn't vote.

Oh, man. I have a Democrats rant. Let's just table it because I have a few other rants about Trump first before we get to the Democrats. But I do hear you on that point. Let's go to the big tech CEOs next, unless you have a different place you'd like to go. No, no, I'll just bookmark that Democrats rant to say for me, it's a rant about the entire voting public where you had people who definitely did this for reasons, that

voted for Trump for reasons that they knew were nonsense, right? That they weren't really voting. Somebody had a great, they weren't really voting. Somebody had a great, I couldn't find it. Somebody put on Twitter, found kind of the first tweet from someone last fall who was complaining about the price of eggs, who now is posting about how they paid thousands of dollars

to go to the inauguration, but couldn't get in because it was inside. It's like, I'm sorry, you know, normally you don't pay thousands and thousands of dollars to go to Washington and see an inauguration if you're really sweating the price of eggs. There's a lot of things I would spend money on before I get to that. So I think it's just the whole voting public, the people who voted knowing

that, that it was nonsense. Other people who voted totally not understanding what they were voting for. And then other people who just didn't vote saying, yeah, you know, I'll, I'll do anything to stop Donald Trump except, you know, I'll do anything to stop Donald Trump except, you know, go to an election polling place. The voting public is definitely on my list of people who are failures yesterday, which is pretty much everybody. So I concur on that.

See, that's how you achieve true curmudgeonliness, Tim. You hate everybody. Yeah. You haven't even seen this list I'm looking through right now. I don't know about you, but I've been in the market for some retail therapy this week, and with a new year comes a new chance to reimagine our closet. And now we can, thanks to our sponsor, Quince. I think everybody needs Quince's Mongolian cashmere sweaters, starting at 60 bucks, especially

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Quince.com slash the Bullwork. Let's go to the big tech CEOs though, because I think it might end up being the most significant thing from the inauguration. The combined net worth of the four wealthiest people who are in the front row of Trump's inauguration is $1.06 trillion. It was Google CEO, Sundar, Musk, who else was there? Zuckerberg, Bezos, they were all like in row one and then you had RFK seated behind them and the rest of the cabinet, which tells you something out in the

audience, Tulsi, the nominee to be the director of national intelligence was seated next to Shou Chu, the CEO of a Chinese spyware app TikTok. They were seated right next to each other, the director of national intelligence. And so, you know, I think that from a populist standpoint, there might be some political ramifications for them. But I also think that maybe the bumpers on Trump this time won't actually be the cabinet, but the bumpers and pool noodles will come from all the rich people that

have decided that they want to hang around with him this time. So, open season on any of that, Tom. The thing with the tech CEOs is, you know, back in the nineties, you had a bunch of young guys who went to the internet casino, a few of them had some good ideas. Hey, I invented a browser. Hey, I invented an app. And then became fantastically wealthy in a short amount of time.

I very much like Jonathan Last's argument that Musk was basically made by zero interest rate policies. The 90s internet casino plus cheap money created zillionaires. The thing about zillionaires is that they come to think of themselves, and I don't mean wealthy people in general. I used to work for a billionaire senator. He was a pretty good guy. I mean people who come from that particular background who say, you know what?

I must be really smart, and I must be really smart about a lot of things. If I'm in an app and I got rich, I must totally understand the Ukraine war. And it bothered them that kind of the gatekeeping of policy was like, thank you for your thoughts on national defense. Your app works very well, but we're not going to do that. And so now I think they've said Trump, who cares about nothing, right? He ran to stay out of jail. Well, he cares about keeping brown immigrants out,

tariffs, and vengeance against his foes. He cares about three things, I think, and himself and like ego, ego. So like that's a couple of things. I think he'd throw any of that other stuff over if his interests warranted it. I mean, I don't think he's committed enough to any, but I take your point.

And so they're saying, great, this guy is malleable. He loves other people with money. This is our chance to govern the United States from behind the scenes. And that's why you had Biden, I think, issuing that kind of Eisenhower-like warning about an oligarchy. Okay. Huh? Well, I mean, of Eisenhower like warning about an oligarchy.

Well, I mean, I don't mean like Eisenhower, but cribbing Eisenhower's thing about the military industrial complex. No, he wasn't Eisenhower. I think, you know, if you look at the tape, it wasn't Eisenhower. You know, you say that, Tim, and then you look at the old the old newsreels of Eisenhower and Eisenhower was exactly the most dynamic presidential speaker at the end of his term, but we digress. But you know that where he cribs from Eisenhower about an oligarchic, you know, tech industrial complex.

And I think he's right to worry about that because I think there is also a sense in American society that if you're really, really, really rich and you come out of this kind of tech background that you must know a lot of things. I mean, there are people are convinced that Elon Musk is really smart. But it's just amazing. I've talked to people and oh, he's really smart. He knows a lot.

I'm like, there are no facts and evidence here about other than I have my thoughts about how Tesla and SpaceX are run. The fact that he doesn't have clearances that are as high as people work for him tells you something. But, you know, the one thing that was truly his baby, X, you know, doesn't seem to work very well.

And his public statements aren't very bright. But people have internalized this. That's the super, just as they did with Donald Trump. Well, Donald Trump's rich. He must know a lot of stuff. Americans have never been able to get over, and this goes back to the 50s and 60s, Americans have never been able to get over the very dumb idea that business and government are basically the same skill sets.

I think that probably some of the listeners are going to want for me to go next to the Elon Nazi salute at the post inauguration at the traditional post inauguration rally held inside the basketball arena. He does this thing where he says, my heart goes out to you and kind of touches his heart and then does a little bit of a see Kyle type thing. I judged to that to be a person like on the Asperger's spectrum, doing a very weird salute, my heart goes out to people. I don't know what's going on in Elon Musk's head or heart.

Could also have been a troll, could have been intentional. I don't know. I do think it's pretty silly to focus on when you have a man that is one of the richest people in the world that has now an office in the White House who is also a government contractor and gave a quarter billion dollars to the very malleable, as you say, incoming president. The scale of corruption that is coming, the scale of people, of putting the thumb, of giving little assistance and handouts and favors to friends of Elon, to friends of the other four richest men in the

world that were sitting there. I feel like that is going to have much greater consequences and probably is a better place to focus, but I'm curious your thoughts on either of those. I agree with you. I tend to think he's just not very conscious of his limbs or something. My colleague Charlie Worsle has a great piece in the Atlantic about this today that I would recommend people take a look at. You know, that basically- Wait, Charlie, on the other way. He's awesome.

Yeah. Where the title is, Did He? By the way, I want to say those of us who are well versed in Star Trek understood that what he was really doing was the Imperial salute from the Mirror Mirror episode of the original series. You think I'm joking, but go watch Mirror Mirror and tell me it's not the same salute. You could sell me definitely on Elon Musk doing a Star Trek salute and not realizing it was the same thing as Hitler. I definitely think that is possible. If you're sitting around parsing and saying, hey, do you think he really did this

right-wing, you know, kind of pseudo Nazi thing? Do we need to talk about this when he's openly supporting the right-wing extremist party in Germany? Like, this is what I mean about how easily distracted people get when you're dealing with these kinds of problems. It's like, Hey, I think he did a Nazi sleut as you just pointed out to him. That is the least of your problems with Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy and you know, Bezos. Who's out? Vivek's out of Doge.

Yeah. He didn't even last a full Scaramucci. Yeah, no, that's right. He was out before the administration even started. We have breached a new frontier in physics, a negative Scaramucci. Yeah, I don't know. What do you think about some of our friends on the left? As you pointed out, Biden in his farewell address focuses on the tech-industrial complex. I think that there is going to be a very strong move towards doing a eat the rich type economic

populism targeting the Trump billionaires as the Democrats path out of the wilderness. Some elements of that make me a little bit queasy when we start talking about vigilante murders. of that make me a little bit queasy, you know, when we start talking about vigil anti-murderers, but I do think that it is, and it is just undeniably a massive political issue for like the working-class party for these to be the images, isn't it? Like the gilded class and the gilded capital. For what it used to be. No, no, no, no, the Republicans. If the Republicans want to be the new working-class party, it's like we're in the gilded capital with the richest guys in the world and their new wives

and all the tech guys are looking at Bezos's new wives like a little cleavage. And it's like, is this, this is the hunger games. Like the forgotten man isn't up there behind the scenes, behind the stage rather. Two things I want to say about this. One is I don't ever want to hear anybody call the 80s the decade of greed and excess ever again. I lived through the 80s, practically a quaint Victorian genteel period of unrestrained capitalism compared to this level of cronyism and corruption. I mean, this is just insane. Like, you know, the 80s were the decade of greed because we cut capital gains taxes.

Like, oh no, this makes the 80s look like, you know, an era of restrained virtue. The other is, can we finally just admit, and I think this is where, you know, so many people, both in academia and on the left, get this wrong. Can we finally admit what utter bullshit American populism is? I mean, this is not William Jennings' bra. Populism is having an inauguration speech about two genders in the Gulf of America.

Okay, populism is not about economics. For history nerds, what a hilarious little call out there to keep praising and lionizing William McKinley. I was like, well, yeah, McKinley, the guy who was the enemy of populism and the choice of capital in his time. But American populism, this notion that it's like the good sense of the working people and they're gonna wrest power and economic well-being out of the

hands of the tiny few rich oligarchs. That is completely a sham at this point. There seems to be no way to kind of get that message across in part, and I'm going to bang this gong again, in part because most people aren't doing so well. You know, Economic populism thrives in its kind of pure—and I'm not a fan of populism. I don't think populism is ever the right solution to any of this stuff, but it thrives when people are losing their farms. Unemployment is heading toward double digits, and inflation is out of control, and it's too expensive to eat, not too expensive to go to college. The fact that people are saying, well, people are saying the same, but it is too expensive

to eat. Demographically speaking, not for the kind of people who are supporting the MAGA movement. They are overwhelmingly a middle class, reasonably well-off group of people. This is all about culture wars. I know Thomas Frank is a man on the left, but I can't keep throwing copies of what's the matter with Kansas at people because 35 years ago you could see this coming of people in Kansas saying, how can we have been left behind despite the fact that we keep voting for these rapacious corporations that destroy our towns.

That is the most amazing part of this, that Trump has seized this mantle of populism when in fact the Democrats could, when I was growing up, Tim I know that's a long time before TV and in the early days of radio. The teletype machines. Faxes, telexes. the Democrats were the working class party. The Democrats were the, kind of the laborer and the union party. And I think the eat the rich approach is going to be dumb. Because there is a way to say, look, I mean, Biden kept trying to do it in his old guy way of, you know, pay your fair share, get as rich as you want.

Tim, like you, I'm a former Republican, I'm a capitalist. But you know, I used to teach about ancient Greece. Even the ancient Athenians would do things like build the Parthenon because the treasury would start getting so stuffed with money that they had to figure out a way to get it back into circulation. You know, like they would do public works basically so that people would have money to spend. Not really a problem for us with the tens of trillions of dollars in debts that we have

getting the money back into circulation. Well, that's right. That's right. Because we think that saying, if you make $100,000 a year, you shouldn't be taxed unfairly is the same thing as saying, therefore, it's okay to have a class of people who are now soon to become trillionaires with a T. Yeah, I don't know. I think the Eat the Rich stuff is gonna be a tempting path

for the Democrats when you have these. Of course it is, and it's gonna be, you know, it's probably not gonna be a good idea because, in part because the people who will carry that message forward will be easy to parry. The Republicans are probably waiting for this, but I'll be interested to see what happens in the next six months about things like tariffs and costs and all of that stuff. There may be a way to go up against all of that that isn't just kind of having your hair

on fire, but eat the rich. Yeah. Much more to talk about this. against all of that, that isn't just kind of having your hair on fire, but eat the rich. Yeah, much more to talk about this. I think that also just the cronyism element of it might be good enough in itself that Donald Trump has betrayed them, that he doesn't care about them. He only cares about his new rich buddies that are kissing his butt. You almost saw it with the visa thing that broke out. Yeah.

Right? Yeah. You know, that wait a minute, America first does not mean Indian engineers first. Right? You know, that, wait a minute, you know, America first does not mean Indian engineers first. Right? But, but it's amazing to me that, and you know, you've talked to Trump voters, I've talked to them, you know that the defense mechanisms that kick into being here when you say, hey, you know, this cronyism is bad. And if, you know, I mean, during the first one, you know, Jared, my son-in-law is an

advisor, my daughter is on the payroll, and people just found ways to say, well, he wants to work with people he trusts, and it's not really a big deal. I think that kind of small stratum of people that we used to call swing voters, and I don't know that they're that swinging anymore, but that they are either conservative voters or stay at home voters. Some of those people came out and I wonder if they're the ones that are going to say, wait a minute, no, I know everybody else didn't do this, but I really did vote on the price of eggs.

I want to end with some more theater criticism, but just one more actual real life consequence of Trump's inauguration yesterday. So there had been put in place a new app, CBP app, that was allowing people in a more orderly way to apply for asylum to come to the border, which is what I've been told everybody wants, right? They didn't want people coming across the border illegally and uncontrolled who wanted to be able to vet these people. And so that app had been creating a more orderly system, unauthorized border crossings had been down.

As soon as Trump was inaugurated, they shut down the app, of course. So there were some images yesterday of people that had been doing what we're told you're supposed to do, wait in line for their opportunity to come. There's a video of a woman just bawling who I think had an appointment like three hours after the app went down. And so I don't know that there will be any political consequence to this because it seems like the country doesn't really care about our tradition of welcoming people, the tired and poor and huddled masses, but that doesn't make it any less disgusting.

I mean, look, I think everybody right and left can agree that immigration is a disaster. I mean, we've just kind of lost control of the immigration picture in this country. I mean, I am old enough, Tim, I'm going to do it again. You know, Tim, when I wore an onion on my belt, as was the fashion, you know, I mean, I was working in DC when Reagan did the 1986 amnesty. I can remember, I mean, that was, that's almost 40 years ago, right? Where we were all walking around going, oh, this sucks, but one big amnesty, one big enforcement push,

and then we never have to do this again. We'll never do this kind of crazy stuff again. And then for 40 years, we've been doing, you know, crazy stuff. But what struck me about that whole business and a bunch of executive orders from yesterday was that they were just kind of pissy. There was just a lot of kind of petty, performative, goofy things.

I think one of them, I want to say that, and if I'm mistaken about this, I'm sorry. I think one of my friends told me that there was like a rescinding work at home for federal employees, right? Because somehow that was associated with COVID, which in fact, it wasn't. Also putting flags at full mast for every inauguration. Right. And stuff like that. Yeah.

Yeah. The things that will really put groceries on the table for working class Americans. You know, like a lot of those, I was a former federal employee. You know why work at home was encouraged? It's cheaper for the government. The government gets to offload the costs of you working to you. You pay for your own lights and heat and toner cartridges and whatever. And it's like these, just these dumb kind of, oh, I think, I think that was COVID and I think there's some people sitting at home. So let's do that on day one because, you know, with all the things happening in the world, flags and birthright citizenship and all this, I mean, there was just a kind of, like I said, a kind

of petty pissiness about the whole thing that again makes me almost, am I going to sound weird by saying almost optimistic, Tim? Yes. Well, I don't know if you sound weird. Hopefully maybe that resonates with some people, but no, I am filled with, I don't know if you sound weird. Hopefully, maybe that resonates with some people. But no, I am filled with rage. I am like a poo flinging monkey right now. I am filled with rage at everyone and I have no optimism. And I think that things are going to just absolutely get worse and worse every day.

My rage is spent. I'm standing on the corner reading a newspaper while Thelma and Louise are zooming by me in a cloud of dust. But the optimism, I wrote this just as Trump was being elected and I said, look, he has the soul of a fascist, but the mind of a disordered child. But you know, on the other hand, a child with a flamethrower. So, you know, I'm just trying to find the one bit of possible. Yeah, you're right. There is no optimism to be funny. Whatever.

Screw you, Tim. I'm depressed again. You did it. You win. I had one more thing I just had to mention about the speech. I have three more like, and this is grinding my gears. What was that? It's our second Simpsons reference.

So it was the Ken Proctor segment. What's grinding your gears? As we got three more things, I guess, grinding my gears. The, uh, this is the liberation of America. And I guess this, this combined. So we'll just combine the topics to my second thing, grinding my gears, which was the media's treatment of yesterday. Like that was the kind of rhetoric that you would use if you are overthrowing a despot.

And that was really the frame that Trump framed up his whole speech about. That there was, you know, these attacks on the freedoms of mega Americans and free speech and the Justice Department was politicized and now I am here to liberate the country. Again, that is just like the birthright citizenship thing. That is a fundamentally un-American view. It was not in line with the other inaugural addresses that bestow the virtues of America and talk about how maybe we don't live up to the Constitution, the Declaration of War, trying to improve.

It was in line with 2016. American carnage, this American carnage ends now. He tried to bookend it. And may I just say as a former speechwriter, his speeches are terrible. He's better when he riffs, to be honest with you. Way better. He tried to bookend that with, you know,

now the greatness begins now, the sense of urgency. But you're right, he was talking as if, you know, like he was the military governor of Japan in 1946 or something. Look, that's their narrative, okay? These are people who have comfortable lives, who live in small towns in Pennsylvania and Ohio and Indiana where nobody is actually bothering anybody. You're not having regiments of graduate students marching down the street, plastering rainbow stickers on stuff.

This is an imagined sense of grievance and oppression that Trump always appeals to to say, and now I will save you. I mean, I wonder if overplaying that, as he did in 2016, that people will say, you know, it's been four years, nothing's gonna change. Nothing's gonna change for most of those folks. If you live in a small town in, you know, Michigan and you voted for Donald Trump, your

life is not going to change. And probably economically for the worse, if he does the things he says he's going to do. But you're right, it's un-American. And it sends a message that those of you out there, it's almost like he's trying to broadcast to those, in occupied America, right? Like red dawn, well here in free America, and here's a message for all my friends who voted for me. John has a long mustache, the chair is against the door,

this sort of freedom code. There's a part of it that is incredibly dangerous and incredibly silly at the same time. And this is where I wanted to go with your talk about, with what you were saying about the media and about the coverage. The coverage, but shouldn't you treat it like it's interesting? So I just want to read a couple of things and you can riff. Yeah, sure.

Politico this morning, time to admit it. Trump is a great president. He's still trying to be a good one. That was a headline by John Harris, the editor of Politico. I was watching network coverage yesterday and they come out of his like insane rants was like, you know, and there is Donald Trump advancing his message. I, there was a reporter who talked about how Elon was donating his time and that's the most that he can give to this country.

CNN talked about how Trump's inauguration was within the realm of normalcy. Was it? Donnie Deutsch on Morning Joe this morning talked about how Trump's inauguration was within the realm of normalcy. Was it? Donnie Deutsch on Morning Joe this morning talked about how Democrats should start looking at what Trump is doing right from a winning point of view. Trump is giving people what they want. What are these people watching? Yeah, I don't know. Like what, I don't- One part of it is that Trump has exhausted everyone into resignation.

That's part of what's going on with me, where I'm just sitting back and saying, you know, okay, you wanna argue for two years about the Gulf of America, whatever. But I think Trump's fire hosing, and I've been saying this for eight years, he fire hoses us and then we just accept it as normal. So that nobody stops in the middle of one of these group discussions

and looks around and says Excuse me. This is batshit crazy. Yeah, this is not normal But I think you know, there's a problem with trying to report on Trump and I feel bad for the people that have to do It every day, you know, you can't get out there every morning and say here's all the crazy stuff Trump No, you not you can again. This is you can't, but you lose half the country. So that already happened on the other side. I, I'm kind of serious with this. A conventional wisdom is congealed among the smart people.

Like the Democrats really need to do something differently and, and should start, you know, what Donnie George said, start listening to the people and the media, the media should have the hair on fire that they did last time. It didn't work. And I kind of look at all that. I'm like, didn't it work? I mean, when Trump was president, there was hair on fire for four years about him and then he lost. And then he lost. And then he went away to Mar-a-Lago and we deplatformed him and people stopped talking about him as much. And meanwhile, Fox and Steve Bannon called Joe Biden an illegitimate president his entire four years, Fox attacked Joe Biden and Kamala Harris from the first second that he was in there, there was nobody saying

like the Republicans really should have learned their lesson from Trump losing. And they should be a little more accommodating to Joe Biden right now. I'm not justifying it. And then to Madden loses. I'm not justifying it. And I'm trying to explain it, but I think that's wrong in general when you say, well, we should listen, you know, Trump was reelected. I'm trying to explain it, but I think that's wrong in general when you say well We should listen, you know Trump was reelected We should listen to the people to my answer is listen to them about what if they're not telling you the truth the ones

Who said well I voted because of the price of eggs Who are then spending thousands of dollars to go to an inauguration? Then you you know, no you cannot derive a pot and this is something I've been even before Trump was ever elected Back when I wrote the death of expertise. I said look politicians cannot derive a pot. And this is something I've been, even before Trump was ever elected, back when I wrote the death of expertise, I said, look, politicians cannot derive signals from the American public if the public isn't making any sense. If someone calls a member of Congress and says,

keep the Affordable Care Act and ditch Obamacare, there is no way to resolve those kinds of signals from people that don't know what they're talking about. So on this, you know, if Donnie saying, Oh, we have to listen to the people and what they're telling us about why Trump lost. I think that the Democrats who are flagellating themselves about their kind of inability to talk to ordinary voters, I think there is something to that.

I mean, the most devastating. Yeah, I'm with you on that. You know, we've talked about it before, right? The trans ad did a lot of damage, you know, and that was a pretty effective piece of advertising. But normalizing what he's doing, I take your point about that half the country has been lost, they're already siloed, you know, in in the stuff they watch, I don't know what the right answer is.

in the stuff they watch. I don't know what the right answer is for a reporter at ABC or CBS who has to cover the White House and come out every day and say, the president did a bonkers thing today. And I think that the answer has been, first as my editor, Jeff Goldberg always says, there's this terrible need to impose coherence

because you can't report something that's just word salad. So you try to impose some sense of coherence on it. That is going to keep happening, unfortunately, because otherwise you don't have a story. You can't just say the president went out and put a string of random words together and we don't know what it means.

The other part of it, I think, is that the shift should be toward, as I know we're doing at the Atlantic, toward accountability, to say, okay, this is the government, here are the things they're doing, we're gonna explain and hold accountable the actions here that people need to understand. And I think we're still in the mode that, you know, well, now we're talking about the president.

And so we have to say, the president said, it's part of our civic religion. I guess that's hard to break Yeah, I think I've left the church. I guess is my point, but the the media has a hard job There's no doubt about that. I just think yesterday was just a failure and it was just so The suspending of disbelief you don't have to suspend disbelief about Donald Trump's oath to cover it, I guess is my point. And I felt like I was seeing that across the board. Or to provide context. I mean, I think one of the things, that's why we had the piece, you know, first thing

in the morning about what Donald Trump did to the police. You know, while you're watching him stand there, just remember where he's standing is where police battled insurrectionists to save the lives of members of Congress. Yeah. And somehow that's all been memory-holed. I think that's what, maybe that's where I've been going with this kind of long circumlocution that I've been trying to figure out what I'm thinking here.

I think what makes me so angry is the memory hole, as if nothing happened until today. That inauguration was covered by everybody, by citizens who are watching it, by a lot of the media, as if nothing happened over the past eight years. We all just got here from Mars. Which takes me to the final one, and even the Democrats. This is my... I'm with you. If the Democrats want to learn from 2024 that they got to talk more normal and re, you know, find some cultural connection with parts of America, there are plenty of things that the Democrats need to do differently.

If the lesson is they need to accommodate this more and attack him less, that is wrong and I'm hate, I hate to pick on Amy Klobuchar, but I have to. This was Amy Klobuchar and MSNBC last night about her job, her ministerial duties at the inauguration and the car ride that she had with Donald Trump and Joe Biden. And honestly, there was not a moment of silence and I bet you wish you were in there. But if I told everything, I wouldn't be invited back. I will tell you that there was, we discussed between those two, the car ride and at the White House, a lot of discussion about the fires in Los Angeles. We also talked about the rebuilding and the fact that the Olympics are coming up.

And this will be a moment for LA to rise from the ashes. That was a good discussion. It wasn't what you bet. I wish I was in there. You bet. I was wishing you wish I was in the car with Donald Trump on the way to the, and I, I mean, not in the way that you mean, Amy, not in the way that you mean. And if, and we have a new FBI, so I don't, I don't want to have any, uh,

don't take any subjects there. I'm just saying your options in this situation are stern and silent respect for the institution and your duties. That's one option or Or protests. Or protests or speaking to his face and saying, you are not going to do this to whatever group you want to harangue him about. Those are the options. Not like, oh, yay, it's nice. Wasn't it cool? I got to be in the limo. We're in the transition. I can think of that was like, so we were in the card and we had a really great conversation. We talked about the transition. I can think of that was like, so we were in the card and we had a really great conversation.

We talked about the LA fires and then he pardoned 1500 violent insurrectionists. Yeah. You know, it's like, wait, there was a part we didn't hear there. Yeah. Did you mention, did you mention during the LA fires thing, did you ask him about the fact that he was threatening to not give money to the recovery because he doesn't like Gavin Newscum? Did that come up? The senator was great to see. It's great talking with you. not give money to the recovery because he doesn't like Gavin Newscombe? Did that come up?

Senator, it was great to see you. It's great talking with you. Listen, I got, I, we, I want to talk again, but right now I got to go because I got a pencil out part of the 14th amendment and then free a bunch of violent insurrectionists. I mean, it's, I like your approach and of, if you're in government, stern and silent, disapproval, you know, do your constitutional duties, execute your functions, carry out the people's business. You don't have to pretend that you're enjoying it

and that things are okay. And going back to what you said about 2016, I had so many people saying, when Trump finally won, it's like, well, it's over. We shouldn't be bound by norms. We shouldn't have to do this. We shouldn't play by the rules. We should fight dirty because what's it gotten us.

And I kept saying what you did. Well, what it got you in 2020 was a democratic president and, you know, take over of the legislative branch and actually for pretty good years seemed to work. All you had to do was show up. 225,000 people swinging in like four or five states, and we wouldn't be having this discussion. Where is the Amy Klobuchar that threw a comb at a staffer? I guess is my question, because that's the Amy Klobuchar

that I wanted to see in the limousine, not the, oh, let's make nice with Donald Trump and pretend like he might invite me back to the Oval Office and we're gonna be able to do business together. Fuck that. Opposition, you're an opposition party right now. That is your job.

Yeah, I think everybody is trying to make sense of this. This is more of the shock than 2016, to be honest. Of course. An Italian writer said about Berlusconi You know, he said it didn't hurt as much the first time it was the second time when everybody knew and So now you have all these people saying well, I guess this is what the people want And I'm just gonna have to make my accommodations with it But there is this sense that you can't and I think this goes back this point

I wanted to make about the media as well that if if 50% of the public, of your audience, of your electorate thought this was a good idea, then you have to somehow split the difference and service that kind of speak for the median. And I think when 50% of the folks have become extreme and potentially violent, there's no way to square that circle. Do you have any other final thoughts you need to get off your chest about yesterday? Well, every time we're trying to find a bright spot, you lead me right back into the dark. You lead me right back into the dark. You signed up for this podcast today, Tom.

It was the day after the inauguration. You could have said, Tim, I got to wash my hair the day after the inauguration. Can we do it on Valentine's Day? That would have been an option. You agreed. This is what you signed up for. I keep trying to pull you towards the light and then two minutes later I'm in an alley and my wallet's gone. My glasses are broken. So I think the only other thing I'll get off my chest about yesterday is let's just end dark. Yesterday was bad.

Wait, all these cabinets in place. Yeah. Or at least some of them. I mean, look, some of these folks are, you know, people I would disagree with but would have to admit are perfectly plausible nominees at this point. You know, I mean, I didn't want John Ratcliffe to be anywhere near the intelligence community, but a Republican loyalist of the elected president who has already served.

You just say, okay. Rubio's already been confirmed. Rubio's done, that's an easy call in any Republican administration, but I'm saving my inner existential angst for the first crisis where the White House Situation Room includes a briefing from Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth. All right.

Well, we'll have you back the first time Pete Hegseth has a crisis. Everybody can get excited for that. I'm sure he'll handle it really well. It just his experience as a co-host on a weekend talk show, I think, has really set him up nicely for this. Tom Nichols, thank you, as always, for doing, I think, combat pay is deserved for the Day After Inauguration podcast. So thanks for doing it. I think that we were going to just have to do this one the day after Inauguration Day, and it went about as much as people would expect so sleep well America

Let's let's leave America with a beautiful line from the princess bride sleep. Well, I'll probably kill you in the morning With that I'll be back tomorrow we're gonna do all tackle the garks all the time I've got a very exciting new guest on the pod looking forward to it Tom Nichols. We'll see you next time Everybody else will see you tomorrow peace On the ground, you winded air Send in the clouds, send in the clouds You love far, you love far I call thy name, I call my fears I call them fears I hope that you won't

But I won't Sorry, my dear You were born to be a fool And there are the sounds There are the sounds We've been in the clouds We've been in the clouds Don't bother Wait to hang in town

Don't bother burying