The Bulwark Podcast - Tom Nichols: He's Bait for the 25th Amendment

Episode Date: October 15, 2024

Trump's fitness for office is a central question now more than ever after his bizarre town hall Monday night, where instead of taking questions, he called out songs, bopped, and swayed—for 39 minutes. Plus, Kamala plans a trip into the lion's den on Fox News, Youngkin is utterly shameless, and we risk losing the norms that George Washington established for the U.S. presidency. Tom Nichols joins Tim Miller. show notes Gifted link to Tom's Atlantic cover piece Tom on Glenn Youngkin

landlord telling you to just put on another sweater when your apartment is below 21 degrees? Are they suggesting you can just put a bucket under a leak in your ceiling? That's not good enough. Your Toronto apartment should be safe and well-maintained. If it isn't and your landlord isn't responding to maintenance requests, RentSafeTO can help. Learn more at toronto.ca slash rentsafeTO. Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Yes, yes, I wasn't just going to punish you with the all-in podcast guy today. We have a regular podcast. We have your candy. We have your favorite guest. He's Professor Emeritus at the Naval War College, staff writer at The

Atlantic. He wrote The Atlantic's cover story for November called The Moment of Truth. His books include The Death of Expertise. It's Tom Nichols. What's going on, Tom? Hey, Tim. Thanks for having me back. There's a lot going on. I think we're going to have plenty to talk about today. There is so much going on. It's hard to even know where to start, but I guess we have to start here. Donald Trump had a town hall of sorts in Oaks, Pennsylvania last night with Kristi Noem and her new face. At some point, a couple people passed out in the crowd, and so Trump stopped answering questions. And for 39 minutes, he swayed to a playlist that included opera, show tunes, Rufus Wainwright and the Village People. It's a familiar playlist for me. He stopped periodically at one point to talk. He said that the Democrats are evil during these brief intermissions, but he spent many minutes just kind of spacing out. It's hard to know how to translate such a bizarre scene to this podcast medium, but I just want to give people a little taste.

So let's listen to one little 30 second bit. Go and vote. Let me hear that music, please. Everyone. Let's thank President Trump. Nice and loud. God bless you.

Let's send President Trump back to the White House. Thank you, everyone. Thank you, everyone. Thank you, everyone. Trump just swayed. Very moving. That takes me back to the 90s. I was going to start singing along. But we digress.

What's happening with him? What's happening with this guy? I don't know. You know, we always make fun of how weird he is during his rallies. But this is now beyond, you know, humor. There's something really wrong with the guy. I's, there's something really wrong with the guy. I mean, there's something seriously wrong with him. And I mean, this is, he's not capable of being president.

And basically they're, this is now everything they tried to project onto Joe Biden, right? Who clearly Biden, you know, clearly has lost several steps, but you know, it's one of my friends says the old man still knows what he's doing. Trump is lost. I mean, they're basically like propping him up like Brezhocrat who is barely functioning is going to be voted into office by millions of people who think this is all a tv show that's all right that uh it's been another edition of the bulwark podcast uh we'll see you guys back here tomorrow yeah that pretty much covers loss begin your day drinking thank you for coming to my ted talk that pretty much covers the main theme of the Bulldog Podcast since its inception.

Yeah, on the age thing, I mean, I just think we're in a country of 330, 40, 50, whatever it is now, a million people. We probably don't need to have an 82-year-old president of either party. But this guy is just so – what is happening? He's just standing there. He can't talk. He doesn't know. He's not answering questions. He's just standing there. He can't talk. He doesn't know. He's not answering questions. He's just standing there, spacing out.

Can you imagine if Joe Biden had gotten on stage? And by the way, I'm going to digress for a minute and say, I took rafts of shit for being an early adopter that Kristi Noem is just an empty female equivalent of an empty suit. Pantsuit. An empty pantsuit. Just a fraud. I bought that stock when it was a penny stock. I'm glad that has finally...

I just took so many... Kristi Noem has really deranged boy fans out there. Imagine if Joe Biden had gone to a rally with some Democratic governor with, you know. Tony Evers. Tony, thank you. Tony, I'm right. It's 1030.

You know, this is early for me, man. But he stood there with Tony Evers and then just swayed while they played, you know, Celine Dion or something. And people would say, okay, well, that was it. He had a good run. It's time to invoke the 25th amendment and he's out. I mean, this guy is going to be 25th amendment bait the minute he steps into office because he can't do it. And he has 25th amendment bait when he left office the last time, four years ago. So yeah. Yeah, it's true. It's proof again, that people voting for Trump don't care about policy. They don't care about his competence to flip the bird to millions of their fellow citizens. And they just want to piss everybody off by putting this guy in to see what happens and to

hear other people bitch and moan about it. And that's really, I'm just going to say that's unpatriotic that you don't take a guy like this and put them in the Oval Office just because it's going to give you shits and grins. It is. And it makes the weird and deranged stuff more appealing to them, right? Because it's even a bigger F you like, yeah, we're still going to be for the guy that's swaying and listening to like, you know, J R's Monday musical night style gay playlists at the,

at the event spacing out like he's on gummies. I think this is something that a lot of, a lot of journalists and a lot of commentators don't get about Trumpism that the worst he gets, like every time Trump does something, you know, I'm going to use the army. You know, I'm going to sway to the village people. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to eat flathead screws for lunch. You know, they don't understand that the more outrageous he is, there's a whole bunch of people in MAGA world going, good. It's going to make it that much

more painful for the rest of you normies when he becomes president i always think back about like i'm in some of these videos but like the thing that makes them the most happy is like their youtube super cuts of sad commentators on 20 on on election night 2016 that i still get sent to me like periodically like once a month by some crazed megaGA person online. And that's what it's all about for them. It's not about policy. It's about they want to see sad people on MSNBC. In moments like this, sometimes I turn to subject matter experts.

And frankly, I'm just going to be honest with the audience. I don't know how much of an expert this guy is, but his take resonated with me. Matthew Remsky, he's a journalist who covers cults. He wrote this. Trump surrendering tonight's Q&A to 30 minutes of his fave songs while standing on stage awkwardly conducting at times echoes many instances of cultic leaders who exhausted, ill, and at the end of their cognitive rope outsource their emotional dominance. Subroutines to canned music they personally find exquisitely sentimental as traumatized narcissists they're seeking comfort and avoiding work but also assume that their core memories of pleasure will make their power and soul transparent and accessible

to their followers well i guess i'm going to declare that guy an expert because i like it that feels right to me it feels right i don't know. I'll defer to other cult experts, but that felt pretty right. And does the person picking the music hate him? Because the clip you just played, if you recall, the English translation is time to say goodbye. I mean, I'm sorry, if I were, you know, having a rally and I were running something, you know, my playlist would not include time to say goodbye. I mean, you know, what else can you put on a rally playlist? The long and winding road? Goodbye, stranger.

Hello, goodbye. I mean, what is the point of that? Maybe saying it's time to say goodbye to the American experiment. Or maybe, like that guy just said, he finds it comforting music and he doesn't know what else to do at a rally so he so he basically does the equivalent of 39 minutes of holding his binky and sucking his thumb yeah it's just weird that that is beyond his rallies are always weird that was not weird in the sense where i was watching and saying ah here he goes again and he's got you know he's he's's sticking artichokes in his ears,

and he's going on about sharks. No, this was like, my dad lived to be 94. And I had to help him into assisted living. This was like, somebody take this disturbed man off the stage, because now it's like literally making me uncomfortable in a way that is not related to politics and i'll just add at 78 my dad was sharp as a tack and yet you know this this guy this is becoming a kind of form of cruelty not just on the part of his voters but but his family cruelty to this confused old man who has no idea what the hell he's he's doing are you sure he's not trolling us i do think i mean his old his original theme was remember in the first game it was you can't always get what you want which did feel like a troll yeah on the country yeah like it was an intentional troll i think i don't know if it's

hard to know like whether he can abstract into other people's feelings enough to understand the troll but it seems like sometimes he does troll yeah i don't think so i mean he knows he knows how to be a jerk but i think with this this if this was trolling us it was so clever and so meta that it would require you know so much yeah that doesn't feel right kind of forethought and cleverness i i think he's just an old guy who just didn't 39 minutes went by without him really understanding who likes his comfort tunes. Yeah. Yeah. And it's everything. It's everything the Republicans tried to project onto Joe Biden. Oh,

won't somebody help this old man? You know, well, that's, this is the other thing and I'm going to yell about the, about journalism again. If Biden had done this, it would be a national crisis. It's all we'd be talking about it would be leading the front pages of the national newspapers of record it would be the only tape anybody plays uh all day fortunately there was other tape that also was equally shocking which you and i will get to in a moment i know you know with the governor of virginia yeah let's get to the young kid i will say that so hold on my only defense of the media isn't trump a national crisis trump is a national crisis i got yeah

it's like what isn't that it's just kind of like what do you do fair enough everything he says is a national crisis the uh young kid thing here because this is where things get dark is that it's one thing if you have a weird der deranged, declining, sundowning old man swaying to music and he has a few like little gerbils around him like Stephen Miller. And that's that's scary situation enough. But in addition to the Stephen Millers, he has a raft of successful, ostensibly normal, competent, sharp, younger people that are doing their best to run cover for him, including the governor of Virginia, Glenn Youngkin. And so I want to play, this is

a little out of the ordinary for this podcast. We're going to play a very long clip of Glenn Youngkin and Jake Tapper. But before we do that, I just want to remind everybody what we're talking about. I want to re-listen to Trump. I know we've played it before, but I want to re-listen to Trump talking about who he's sicking the military on if he gets back in there. Let's play that clip with Maria Bartiromo. I think the bigger problem is the enemy from within, not even the people that have come in and destroying our country. By the way, totally destroying our country.

The towns, the villages, they're being inundated. But I don't think they're the problem in terms of election day. I think the bigger problem are the people from within. We have some very bad people. We have some sick people, radical left lunatics. And I think they're the, and it should be very easily handled by, if necessary, by national guard or if really necessary by the military, because they can't let that happen. So twice he makes clear he's not talking about the illegal migrants. He's talking about people inside the country. So before we get to Youngkin, just thoughts on just how ominous that bit is. It's not the first time. He regularly

fantasizes about this. He, you know, talks about my generals, you know, that this is a guy who literally said, why can't you generals be more like Hitler's generals? Because of course, Trump being one of the dumbest people ever to become president has no idea that Hitler's generals, you know, tried to kill him. But he really thinks that his generals should be like a Praetorian guard, they should go out in the street. One of the things that I quoted in in the cover story this month for The Atlantic is from one of the books about Trump's administration, where he says, go on out there, beat the fuck out of them. And this is, I mean, this is the United States military. This is the American armed forces. And he constantly thinks about targeting them against the people of the United States, against American citizens, which is just, this is where I'll remind people, I taught military officers for 25 years. I mean,

this is the thing that they don't ever want to do do they never want to turn their weapons on their own people they don't think of themselves as that kind of force these are honorable men and women who are loyal servants of the constitution the idea that you would you know just be called into action to go shoot other americans just because the president's pissed off is is repugnant to them but that's his thing that's his jam man yeah actually let's just sit on that for a second how do you how do you how do they hear that like how do you how do the people that you taught i don't know i knew are you still speaking to anybody like when this stuff happens like at this point is it just background noise of trump's nonsense or our you know email chains text chains you know lighting up like what like

what is this i just how is that processed in the military world? Well, you have to realize that the military has a very strict code of political non-involvement. So I respect that by not putting active duty military officers on the spot and asking them about it because that puts them in a jam. I left before January 6th. I retired shortly after that. So I didn't have a seminar when that happened. I didn't have any officers in my class. But I know that a lot of retired officers are either openly opposed to what Trump talks about because they just find it appalling. You have to remember that, you know,

the cover story I wrote about George Washington. We think of him as the father of the country. The U.S. Army thinks of him as the father of the U.S. Army, that the American armed forces are born when George Washington takes command on the green in Cambridge, Massachusetts in 1775. And some of the others, I think, just are in this kind of anguished silence. But I have yet, I know they're out there, and I know they exist, where there are senior military officers who think Trump is just dandy. But I think they are far and few between. But as I say in the piece, all he's going to need when he gets back in is a handful.

He's just got to find the 0.001% and then let the chain of command, the discipline of the chain of command end up solving some of his other problems. But my sense of most military folks is that they are appalled by this kind of talk and don't ever want to have to turn their guns on their fellow Americans. All right. So with that as the backdrop, now we get back to Glenn Youngkin. And again, I wanted to play the original clip again for people just so you could see that it's very clear. Like Trump two times specifically says, I'm not talking about the illegal migrants. I'm talking about the enemies within.

Jake Tapper on CNN confronts Glenn Youngkin about this and they have a lengthy exchange and I want to play the whole deal for everybody. So here it is. You heard some of the language that Mr. Trump used over the weekend. What do you think of this idea of, quote, we have some sick people, radical left lunatics,

and I think it should be very easily handled by, if necessary, the National Guard, or if really necessary, by the military. Is that something that you support? Jake, first of all, thank you for having me. And I guess what I want to just make very clear is that it's my belief that what former President Trump is talking about are the people that are coming over the border that in fact are committing crimes, that are bringing drugs, that are trafficking humans, and that are turning every state into a border state. And I'm a governor of a state

that is not near the southern border. And yet I see the impacts of 10 million people illegally coming across the border every single day. Five Virginians die on average from fentanyl overdose. We have folks that have crashed, the illegal immigrants that have crashed the front gate at Quantico in a box truck trying to gain access to Quantico. And we've had Virginians who have been subjected to sexual assault by Venezuelan gang members. So to say that this isn't happening, Jake, is just not fair to Americans. And so it is happening. I'm not saying that at all.

Obviously, there is a border crisis. Obviously, there are too many criminals who should not be in this country, and they should be jailed and deported completely. But that's not what I'm talking about, because he was talking about sick people, radical left lunatics, who should be handled by the National Guard or the military. And then later on in that same speech, he said that one of the lunatics he addressed was Congressman Adam Schiff. That's who he was talking about using the National Guard and military against,

radical left lunatics, enemy from within, people like Adam Schiff. Again, Jake, I don't think that the, and again, I can't speak for him, but I do think that you are misinterpreting and misrepresenting his thoughts. I do believe, again, it's all around the fact that we have had an unprecedented number of illegal immigrants come over the border in an unconstrained, unrestrained fashion. The Biden-Harris administration has allowed it to happen. It was their policies. They did not fix it. And as a result, we do see a substantial number of folks that are violent criminals, folks who have been identified as national security threats here.

And in fact, just two weeks ago, we in fact had senior people from our national security apparatus say that there's 15,000 violent felons in the United States. They have no idea where they are. That is what I believe the president is referring to. I don't think that he's referring to elected people in America. But I'm literally reading his quotes. I'm literally reading his quotes to you, and I played them earlier so you could hear that they were not made up by me. He's literally talking about, quote, radical left lunatics. And then one of those lunatics he addressed, he mentioned, was Congressman Adam Schiff. So, Tom, I mean, you wrote about this,

about how Orwell doesn't quite cover it. But, you know, what's your reaction to Glenn Young? A couple of folks, Bill Kristol, for one, had the reaction of hearing that Orwell quote, the party commanded you to, you know, it was their final commandment of the party to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. But I think people misunderstand that in context of the book. They got you to do that by basically torturing you to death, by breaking your mind to the point where you just rejected reality. And you would say two and two is three or five or whatever the party wants it to be. Junkin is doing it just because

he's ambitious. He's not doing it because he's scared or terrified or, you know, in a fascist regime somewhere. He's doing it because he thinks it's very important to lie about this. I mean, it's just a, that's why this clip, I think, captured so many people last night and today, because it's not even subtle. You know, you could see the frustration on Tapper's face, right? It's like, he says, I'm literally, he didn't say that. I'm literally quoting it. I'm reading it verbatim to you. No, no. He calls out Adam Schiff. He's not talking about El Chapo. Yes, he says, I want to talk about Adam Schiff. Yes. Noted illegal immigrant Adam Schiff, right? There's no doubt that he's talking about, because again, he has a long history of doing this. And Yunkin, just, you know,

kind of with that aw shucks, no, no, Jake, he's talking about it. No, it's a lie. And why? So that one day, Governor Glenn Yunkin can, along with Governor Nikki Haley and others, can emerge from the ashes, you know, and say, now we rebuild. You know, lead us back to the promised land because I never betrayed you. I mean, you can see Haley doing the same thing and a lot of other prominent Republicans. And it's worse than cowardice. I say this in the piece. It's worse than cowardice. Cowards, I have a certain amount of respect for those.

You know, when they're doing the interview, a guy like literally congressman just like literally runs into traffic. I got to go. I got to meet. I got a hearing. And cars are honking. He's crossing too much dignity to shame myself. The way that I can't do this. I'm going to run away from you like a coward rather than confront this.

This guy practically grabs the microphone and says, no, no, I'll do it. I mean, I don't even know what the, it's not coward. Is there another name for this? Like, you know, energetic paltrunary or something. I mean, what is that, that you, that you just jump in front of the camera and say, no, no, Jake, I will stand here and tell millions of people like he's a jedi master no this isn't the this isn't the phrase you think it is this isn't what he really said when it's right there and i think one of the things that's always been fun about trump i mean this is chilling this is awful but it's also funny that every time a trump enabler or sycophant goes out there and says no

no that's not what he meant you have trump running in front of a camera and saying, no, that's exactly what I meant. And they just end up getting hamstrung. Everything happened to J.D. Vance yesterday, trying to, oh, no, he's not. He would never do these things. Trump, and again, Trump raising his hand. Sure, I would. I would do all these things. He's telling you who he is over and over again.

And shame on Glenn Youngkin for that moment. I mean, how do you ever trust a man who stands in front of a camera and says, you didn't hear the thing that you just heard? Yeah, well, that's the one. It's just utter shamelessness, like to the, you know, to the most extreme possible degree. And for what? You know, this is one of those kind of morality tales where it's like, know you've got these in the bible and in dickens you know where you go to somebody and you're like i'm telling you that in the future you will do this thing and they're like no i would never do that right you know what i mean like you go to glenn youngkin eight years ago and just be like hey just so you know there's going to be a

clip of you you're going to be sitting on cnn donald trump's going to be saying that he wants the military to go after liberals and that's what he plans to do when he gets back in the white house and you are going to respond to that with well now that's by defending it and by running circles around glenn youngkin would say i would never do that i would never why would i ever do that but yeah i am too principled right right i would i and for who for donald trump i would never do donald first of all i will make sure that that Donald Trump is never the nominee of our party. And certainly, certainly not the nominee of our party three times. going to rebuild mindset because it's just like i just want to grab glenn youngkin by the lapels and and just be like there is no rebuilding if he wins like he can win right like you realize he can win it's a fucking coin flip right now and if he wins he will have been the president twice

and they're not coming to glenn youngkin in 2028 by the way if we're having elections in 2028 the party's not going to turn to glenn youngkin after donald trump has been president twice okay and is going to have the the much much more toadyish or whatever much more mega nativist whatever word you want to use lick spittles to follow in his footsteps and he'll probably fucking trump jr or vance right it's just like the only way that there's a possibility of rebuilding is by slaying him now politically electorally yes yeah yeah politically i i wonder too if there's even a chance of rebuilding now at all as you were saying this tim i was thinking about one of the first never trump meetings that that we started having back then.

One of the places I first met. The meeting of the concerned? The meeting of the concerned, which is what it became called back when we were sort of meeting in secret in a Washington basement of a Washington office building. And, you know, we will, I remember having this conversation with a lot of the folks there about, well, you know, well, look, parties don't just fall apart and disappear. I mean, we're not the Whigs, which, you know, the Republican Party is a good party, it can be saved, you know, of course, me with my New England Republican optimism, of course, I'm saying this, while the number of elected New England Republicans is dramatically approaching zero, you know, except for Charlie Baker. Charlie Baker's at the NCAA now.

Bill Scott, I think, is all you got left. Yeah, right. Which is so weird in, you know, in Vermont of all places. But, you know, we walked outside saying, well, this was back in 2017. This is like seven years ago. And we're walking out and saying, well, you know, the future of the party, do we quit? Do we stay? Is there going to be another party? But we all kind of had that sense of no, there's going to be a party. You know, it's like, it's like Youngkin and Haley and the rest of

them are still back there somewhere saying, oh, this, this fever will break, it will pass. It took me a long time to get to get past that. And I don't think that the current Republican Party survives in its current form, whether Trump wins or not. But the idea you can see these people, you know, basically, what was that Bill Clinton phrase, I'm preserving my viability in the system, you know, like, it's gonna be Glenn Youngkin's time, 2028 or something. There's no system. There's no system left to preserve if he wins. So this takes us to your cover story, which has this ominous subhead, which when I clicked on it, because, you know, the title is The Moment of Truth. It's a picture

of George Washington. I'm like, okay, this is going to be a, you know, a create a core, an uplifting rallying cry. And then and then click the re-election of donald trump would mark the end of george washington's vision for the presidency and the united states dun dun like that's it i ride anyway give us the premise of the story how long have you known me that you expected uplifting well i just thought with three weeks to the election it was going to be george washington it's going to be we're we're storm it's a you know we're charging the battlefield you know kind of a rallying cry no yeah it's going to be doing the william daniels uh from 1776 you know coming land what may you know no um no this is all of the other presidents you can place along some continuum, even the very worst of them, the worst, you know, Buchanan,

Jackson, Nixon, you know, anybody, pick your favorite, pick your favorite president that you hate. They're still recognizable as American presidents in the system that George Washington helped to establish. I think people don't realize. Barely for Johnson. Very bare, hanging by the thread on the end of the continuum for andrew johnson okay but johnson never johnson never elected you know an accidental president i mean donald trump was elected and he's been nominated three it's like andrew johnson you know this is it was william jennings brian or something where they just kept putting him up over and over and over again. I mean, it was just a freak accident. And also didn't call a mob when he had to step down. I mean, this is something we've set the bar so low that we look back now at bad presidents and say,

but you know, at least they left. At least they walked out of the office and packed up their shit and went home. And Trump just isn't on that same continuum. He doesn't care about it. I started to say, you know, part of the reason that Article 2 of the Constitution can be so frustrating, right, because Americans have argued about this for years. The president too powerful. There's a lot of kind of shady gray spots in Article 2. It's because the founders trusted George Washington. They basically

said, we can't agree on a lot of this stuff. He'll figure it out. And he did. He did for a lot of that stuff. The problem is now we have a president who says Article 2 means I'm a king. And the Supreme Court has said, yeah, basically, that's right. And we are facing a crisis of I think, part of the reason that the election is so close, because you keep coming back to this and I get it because it just gobsmacks, you know, I think a lot of rational people that the election is this close. People cannot get their arms around the kind of power that this sort of demented man child is going to gain by returning to the Oval Office, especially without people around him to stop him from doing

any of this stuff. And I think his supporters think it's going to be just awesome. They still don't believe that he would plow them under his tires just as quickly as anybody else. But I think a lot of even, you know, and I have to do my usual angry dance about the Democrats. I think a lot of Democrats, if I have to hear the term dis dance about the Democrats. I think a lot of Democrats, if I have to hear the term disaffected Democrats one more time, I'm going to scream, you know, who are saying, well, don't listen to the Jason podcast. Yes, please.

If that word makes you scream, you can't handle a full 45 minute bonus podcast. I'm disaffected. My taxes might go up and you know, Harris is going to be a little, a little bit too far to the left that I don't like. Okay, fine. You know, but the, the stakes on the other side of this are so monumental that all the other stuff can get figured out if we get past November. All right, y'all. I woke up on Sunday morning after a big night at tiger stadium and uh my skin was

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Give your skin the scientifically proven gentle care it deserves with OneSkin. Can I take you to the dark place on this then? You say this is why I keep coming back to this. I'm sorry, darker? Yeah, I'm sorry darker yeah yeah i mean i'm way darker than that actually because i was just reading your article and i'm like okay i'm getting into jvl territory here but i is it kind of already over i mean just like the idea that we could be in this place people are like tim like you're just your anxiousness is

rubbing off on me i've've had a couple bits of negative feedback on that. But I think I can explain it by saying this. The fact that we are even here, if the best case scenario following the insurrection attempt with as big of a buffoon as this person is, and following four indictments and two impeachments is that kamala harris who's like a totally mainstream democrat squeaks out 276 electoral votes and it takes five days to count pennsylvania and during that time we have mobs you know starting to form outside state capitals and then the one party president doesn't accept the results again and then we have to wait for the house to count you know to make sure that we can have a speaker

of the house that will confirm the election and we're into january like like if that is the outcome that everybody's excited about i mean like a great i'm happy for that that's great tom harris is in there few but isn't the isn't the whole point that you're talking about, isn't the system deeply, deeply, potentially irreparably damaged from having to go through that and have that be the best case outcome we're looking at? Doesn't that put you into a pretty dark place about the state of affairs. Well, as I said, time to uncork the bourbon first thing in the morning. Yes. And unfortunately, I agree with you. And I agree with JVL. I mean, he, you know, the three of us are now a dark triad. But yeah, look, the system isn't broken. The system is only as good as the voters in it. And a big chunk of the electorate is just broken. Three years ago, I wrote a piece for the magazine called Mass Psychosis. And it's funny that you bring this up because I just reposted it the other day,

feeling the way you feel right now. And I said to a colleague at the magazine, I said, I was trying to work through something I was writing. And I said, I don't, I feel like a certain number of Americans, I spent my life having, as Trump would say, the best words, right? I was a college professor and a public speaker. I am used to speaking to people. And in fact, my days, I spoke to kids at night and my days were spent talking to military officers or tough audience. So I think, you know, I have a pretty good ability to talk to other human beings. I don't know how to talk to certain people now. I just don't know how to, and I'm talking about friends, relatives, you know, some neighbors who, who just, it's like, you know, it's really hard to talk to somebody who says, who believes, you know, that the moon's made of cheese. Yeah. I was just going to say that the moon's made of green cheese and you, you, you kind of blink stupidly for a minute and you say, we went to school together, didn't we? Like we learned and, you know, they landed on the moon when we were in fourth grade. Remember, remember that happening? And you, I don't know. I mean, I don't argue. I don't find myself saying,

no, you're wrong. We need to do this as opposed to that. I find myself hearing people say things. And then I, I'm just lost for a moment to say, you know, that I've done this. And when I've done some public speaking gigs, and people have come up to me, and I've said, Look, please don't be offended. But that's just wrong. That didn't happen. That's not a real thing. That's not something that's going on. And, you know, as one of my friends said to me a boyhood friend he said uh see you just don't get it you're you're one of them now and i'm like what well i'm one of you know what i'm one of the people who now believes in algebra you know what does that mean and i think that that psychotic bubble isn't going to go away. I think without Trump there to push,

I let's, let's try and put a little sliver of daylight. Okay. Let's try to get some positive on it. Tiny sliver. I think a lot of people are holding to this. Let me give me 10 seconds to sort of spool this out. Okay.

So people, people committed to Trump before they knew how completely crazy he is. How they thought he was a businessman. It was eccentric. He was right. They thought he was a businessman. He was eccentric. Right. They thought he was eccentric. He said non-PC things, but he wasn't like, that's the best spin you can put on him, right?

He wasn't like a racist. He just said non-PC things sometimes, and he was a businessman and eccentric. Yeah, a lot of people bought that kind of image of Trump. Okay, so they didn't realize how completely disordered and weird he really is. So they double down, they triple down, he gets elected, and they say, now you're going to see how awesome he is. And it's four years of this bonkers nightmare where, you know, then we have a national crisis, right? I mean, the first few years he you know the economy

sort of goes along the way economies will do he cuts taxes blows a hole in the all this stuff that republicans normally hate and then this scientific this national crisis comes along except for operation warp speed give him credit he completely bungles this tens of thousands of people die hundreds well you know that that i would trace to him okay an additional you know like an additional around the world millions of people but he he is responsible i think for for thousands and thousands of unnecessary deaths he helps the government or he he enables the government to develop a vaccine and then basically scares people out of taking it. Okay. So now they think, all right, fine.

We're done with him. He's out. He lost in 2020. We did our duty and we stood by him. And then he gets the nomination again because the primary system rewards the kookiest and most extreme voters who show up. And nobody really thinks this is going to happen. So now they're like, well, shit. Now what do I do?

And that's now you're starting to see like the Glenn Youngkins and Nikki Haley saying, no, no, he's going to be defeated. We don't have to live with this again. And now here we are in 2024, where he could win. And people are saying, I guess I have to do this again. If Trump is defeated in 2024 is where all this is, this was going. These these people may some of these people may finally be able to let themselves off the cross you know to just come down off of their their self-flagellating loyalty to trump you know i always bring up the uncle ned right the guy that's always at your family dinner saying yeah you know what the problem with this country is Jewish space lasers powering Venezuelan voting machines to let in, you know, MS-13 into Idaho. And I suspect that what you'll get if Trump is finally vanquished,

and yes, there will be violence, I think, a lot of these people are not going to take it well, but that by Thanksgiving, your Uncle Ned's going to just be saying, you know, is the game on. What's on TV? Let's continue down this path because this is where I was. And this is, I think, where I think this gets at the core of my anxiety and creeping despair, which is I agree with you in a situation where if Kamala Harris sweeps the seven swing states, she gets 319 electoral votes. This is possible, by the way.

I just, what I said earlier was what I think is the most likely scenario, but it's not actually the best scenario. Like she very well could sweep all seven swing states. That is not outside the realm of possibility. She wins 319 to 219. The whole counting thing doesn't really matter because who cares? Like it's like,

it wasn't one state flipping the whole thing. So there's not really a flashpoint. And I think that what you just laid out could happen. We're just not staring down that situation right now. God willing that happens. God willing that happens. We're three weeks out. I still would rather be her than him, but I think we're staring down a situation where she's looking at 276 electoral votes, where Pennsylvanialvania is the make or break thing and where pennsylvania can't count their votes as anybody that watched 60 minutes this week saw it's going to take them fucking forever to count their votes again by design that by by republican design by

design republicans fault totally republicans fault by design absolutely to create trouble that's ugly and that that's hey when it's called for common, I'll be the happiest person in the world. But I mean, in the big, in the biggest picture, that's still setting us up for a pretty ugly situation about the state of state of the country. Maybe the historical analogy we should be looking for is Nixon's resignation, right? I was almost 14 when that happens, but 13, I delivered that newspaper the day Nixon resigned. That's how old I am. There were people, even in my working class New England town, who were, Nixon's getting screwed, and this is the plot.

And they just, Nick, I don't believe. I remember seeing bumper stickers in my name. I don't believe the New York Times impeach Nixon, defend Nixon. I mean, it was. That was my grandmother. Right. Okay. She was one of those.

Nixon resigns and all of that went away. It just ended. Yeah. And I think Ford, I know people hate it when I say this, Ford was right to pardon him and just end it and get him, you know, people's all, you know, Trump is Trump because Nixon was pardoned. Trump doesn't even know what happened to Nixon. He couldn't care less.

Trump is going to be Trump. But at the time, for people who remember the mid 1970s, it was really important to get past Watergate and Nixon and bring an end to the 1960s, basically. And that was an important thing to do. So I'm just there were people who were convinced that Nixon was an important thing to do. So I'm just, there were people who were convinced that Nixon was, the Jews were out to get Nixon, the hippies were out to get Nixon, the left, the commies, the whatever. And then Nixon, you know, six months after Nixon's gone, nobody's talking about it. It's all, it's over. It's gone. Now, is that going to be the same with Trump? I don't know because when nixon resigned nobody got killed

and we've already had bloodshed because of trump i guess my point is that's much more likely to be the case if comma wins clear in a in a very clear victory and this is again takes me back to the other the other obsession of the blog podcast which is why more people aren't trying to make it a blowout victory and why so many people are on the sidelines but we we've we've done that every episode we don't need to do it now one more thing about your george washington story let's just focus again on history and being positive the other thing that i love about it is just and the contrast with trump is you go over one of my favorite anecdotes from from washington which is that uh adams wanted the uh the president to be named his highness or something like that

his highness and george washington said no it should be mr president i it's such a small thing that maybe as as a lover of words and language i it's such an important distinction and it is something that i feel like has been a through line through the country up until now that is really being challenged by Trump Trump's vision for the presidency and the Supreme Court ruling so anyway I just I just wanted to hear you riff on that for a minute yeah you know the the full title was something like his highness the president protector you know of the rights of the American people you know like you could almost hear the trumpets blare every time he said it and it's one of the reasons that Washington, I mean, Adams was just a dislikable guy and Washington didn't trust him for a lot of reasons.

But that one got under his skin. You know, it's been a long time that we have abused the term Mr. President. Because in theory and in etiquette, as it used to be, you did not refer to a former president as president. You referred to him or, well, there was only him. You referred to him by the last lifetime title they had. The proper way to address Bill Clinton is Governor Clinton. The proper way to address Dwight Eisenhower, and you hear this when JFK and Eisenhower are talking during the Cuban Missile Crisis, is general. That's what, you know, JFK calls him general. But it's okay in modern usage to refer to President Bush, President Clinton. What you don't say and what Trump's people do all the time is refer to Trump as

the president. Because America only has one of those at a time. So, you know, George H.W. Bush at one point is being introduced. They said, you know, George H.W. Bush at one point is being introduced. They said, you know, President Bush. And he did that thing, you know, with his hand. He went, former, former president, former. Because Bush was old school. And he knew that technically he wasn't President Bush. He was former President Bush.

That was a great Dana Carvey version of Bush. Dana Carvey now goes down in history with two of the best presidential impersonations ever. His Biden, it's so good. His Biden now is just painfully good. And I literally made me do a spit take when I was watching it the other day. Because here's the thing, by the way, you know, and I just like, oh, this is too, this is too on the nose. And yes, every time I imitate Bush now, we all lapse into carving now. Because, you know, not getting it with the hands.

People at home can't see this. Maybe you'll post the clip. We got it on YouTube. YouTube. Oh, good. Because then they'll see Lily climbing up my chair a couple of times on YouTube as well. But I actually saw George Bush do this. He said, I want to bring people together, not push them apart.

And the hands, it was like a badly dubbed Godzilla movie, you know, where the hands and the voice were behind, you know, and I'm like, you know, I just love the guy for that because he just wasn't not gonna message. I care. And, uh, but he, he felt very strongly about that. He kept saying he would correct people. It's a former president because he understood the importance about that. He kept saying he would correct people and say former president because he understood the importance of that use of titles. And Trump abuses it regularly. So thank you again for coming to my TED Talk about presidential etiquette.

Of course. It's a great cover story. People should read the whole thing. All right. Two things really quick. Kamala has made a media strategy pivot. I'm pretty bored with the obsession in the media and social media of people analyzing every media decision. I've always been with the obsession in the media and social media of people analyzing every

media decision. I've always been a more is more person. I don't think we need to micromanage every hit these days. She should do as much as she's capable of doing without doing harm to herself is sort of my view on this. But it's interesting, I guess, that she's chosen to do Brett Baier. And I guess they're in negotiations with Joe Rogan. My bias would be I'd rather debate Trump again on Fox than do Brett Baier. I guess would be my one nitpick, but I'm happy that she's doing it. I think that she's more than capable of it. Some people have concerns. I don't know.

Where are you at on this? I think the first part of her campaign after Biden stepped down was flawless, which was keep the focus on how completely terrifyingly weird Trump and Vance really are. And let's not sleep on Vance. He's a very weird guy. I think that a lot of the media criticism got inside our head. Like, how are you going to define yourself as different from Joe Biden? Well, what I'm sorry, Joe Biden's leaving office with a pretty strong term behind him. You know, you don't normally you don't run. I mean, you didn't see, you know, Bush 41 saying, you know, kinder, gentler, that was it, you know, kinder, gentler Reaganism, Gore runs away from Clinton, and kind of pays that price. Although I think, you know, there was no way out for him on that one. So I think those voices got inside her head.

I agree with you going on Brett bear. I don't know what the point of that is my guess. And the only way I think this turns out, okay. That, and I could see if her campaign is thinking this way is that the more people see her, the less she seems like a cartoon villain. Right. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Like it was good to just let Trump fulminate about having to run against a black woman. You know, but okay, now she's got to get out there and say, No, look, I really don't have fangs. You know, no horns, no horns. So maybe that will help provide something of an edge in in those swing states. I think, however, her campaign, and this is not, look, I'm not, I'm not you. I've never run a campaign. I've never done comms for a campaign. The only thing that I find puzzling in all this is Trump is every day doing something outrageous and weird and freaked out. And if I were doing comms, you know, for the other side, I I'd be like, that should be part of the message of the

day well and she did that last night she did do that last night we should say just by she aired the the clip that we aired earlier of the the enemy thing and her rally which is a little different for her um so yeah but there could be more of that well and she said people should watch I mean on this I also have to say it's really nice to hear the candidate say something I've been saying for years which is people should watch his rallies and just go and just watch them over and over again. We had a piece of the magazine, you know, people should go to a Trump rally, you know, you should watch this. And of course, for years, liberals were like, don't give him exposure, don't give him oxygen. No, put him up there by those, you know, motion capture billboards that are nothing but Trump doing rallies all day long, because it's so freaky. But I do think she does risk that trap of, okay, but like that Brett

Stevens piece that, you know, is just still mind boggling, right about, okay, but I need to be sold on you. And the only way you're going to do that is to tell me which administrative regulations you're going to waive so that we can build more housing. As if like that's the, you know, holding you back in this decision between, you know, sociopathic autocrat and standard issue Democrat. The big thing that's going to do it for you is, you know, whether or not you're going to raise marginal tax rates 2%. Right, or move the embassy back from Jerusalem or whatever, like some random foreign policy. Yeah, I mean, just to put a button on that,

I think what I strongly suspect, and some of this is available in public data, is there's a huge swath of undecided people out there that are basically, if you put them in your mind's eye, it is a Brett Baer watching Fox, not Jesse Waters watching old guy that's been a republican his whole life that doesn't like trump and maybe voted for him once maybe not the other time and they're kind of teetering and this is really just an effort to try to convince that old guy

to just not vote like she's almost not even trying to convince them to vote for her. It's just like their data says that there's some of these guys teetering. And if you can just get them comfortable enough, going back to your no horns thing, that she doesn't have horns to keep them off, off and they, you know, live in Bucks County.

That's a worthwhile endeavor. And I'm pretty sure that's why they're doing it. Or split their ticket. Or split their ticket, you know, vote for Dave McCormick and Kamala or whatever in Pennsylvania. Yeah. I told a story about my dad just before he died.

He died in September of 2012. And he could have, you know, gotten an early bait. But at that point, he was done. And part of the reason he didn't vote, I think, aside from being old and infirm and it was going to be a hassle. I told this story in my book, Our Own Worst Enemy. My dad and I were watching TV in his assisted living room and they were doing the Romney thing and, you know, talking and then they switched over to Obama rally.

That was, you know, very energetic. And I said, I don't think Romney's going to make it, dad. He's a good guy. You know, he was our governor in Massachusetts. We liked him. And my dad, very cool. My dad, the most right wing, you know, Archie Bunker, you know, never going to vote for a woman or a black person or anything. You know, just my dad sitting in his chair and he nodded. He said, they're both good men.

We'll be fine. Maybe that's the thing they're hoping to get to where you get people that are like my dad saying, you know what, maybe we're going to be okay. Maybe she's going to win. And that's not the end of the world. Because that the hyperbolic mania on Fox and other outlets about Kamala Harris is, it's, it's bonkers. I mean, it's, you know, just, it's beyond, I don't even know how to describe it. I mean, I don't know. I always wonder with some of these folks, you know, sitting there on the five or wherever they are, you know, how much do you really not love this country that you're willing

to do this for money that, you know, that your preferred outcome in the end. And I don't mean even the right wing pundits like that are like, you know, that sort of hyper anti abortion folks who will admit like, I'm not gonna vote for Trump, but I'll be glad when he does, because anything that Greg Gutfeld, and these guys are just right, I'm talking about people that couldn't care less. And it's like, is it really that important to you to play act this to the detriment of your own country and apparently you know there's everybody has a price or at least you know everybody has a salary they'll accept to say certain things and i just find it astonishing

every time i watch so maybe going on maybe her going on fox you know is an antidote to some of i hope anyway i mean it's you know she's person. I mean, she's running against two guys that are clearly not normal people. So maybe that'll, that'll actually give people that, that sense, you know? Yeah. I think the answer to your question,

some of these guys hate, do hate the country as it is, you know, and they, they hate the big, big swaths of the country. And I think that drives some of this. All right.

The final story that I need to tell you about. Is this the that you said is gonna light my hair on fire yeah are you ready yeah final topic hit me national rifle association's new boss doug hamlin have you seen this he's on the daily mail daily mail does some bad reporting this is uh this is pretty uh pretty important we've mentioned your cats your late cat carla lily has been in the picture today well that should be in your mind's eye as I read you this Doug Hamlin was involved in the brutal torture and killing of a cat when he was a fraternity brother in college he was appointed NRA CEO this year he pleaded no contest to a misdemeanor charge of animal cruelty and the vile killing of his fraternity's cat BK Hamlin was an undergraduate at the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor when heile killing of his fraternity's cat bk hamlin was an undergraduate the university

of michigan at ann arbor when he and four of his alpha delta phi brothers were accused of capturing the cat cutting its paws off stringing it up and setting it on fire it's the new head of the nra thanks thanks for letting us go out on a wow Wow. You know, I saw that link on Drudge and a grown man, and you literally torture an animal to death. There's something wrong with you. But how reassuring that someone like this is now in charge of pumping gun propaganda to millions of people with high-powered weapons. That's really reassuring. Thanks, Tim.

I thought we couldn't go on here. I'm here to reassure. That's what it's called, the reassuring bulwark podcast. People say that all the time. Wow. I'm here to reassure. That's what it's called. The Reassuring Bulwark Podcast. People say that all the time. Wow. Thank you to Tom Nichols. I'm not thanking you. We're not going out on that.

I'm not even going to say thank you. What do you want to go out on? Do you want to do some show tunes, trivia? Or let's see. Do you want to give us an election prediction? What do you want to go out on? I need to hear Conte Partiro again, just to calm me down. Okay, let's put it back on.

Jason, let's put it back on the opera. God bless you. There we are. Let's send President Trump back to the White House. Boo. Boo. Guys, thank you to Tom Nichols. No thank you to Donald Trump and Kristi Noem.

Tom Nichols, I don't know you'll probably be back next time during the period between the election and the actual call of the vote so i'm trying to put you on our calendar for that right now i will be here then all right take care of them thanks thank you to tom nichols thank you to jason calacanis for the bonus podcast and for the very revealing interview he gave to me we'll be back tomorrow with a double header see y'all then peace sitting here walking the line well that's okay i ain't in no book Cause nobody's off the hook See you looking so sad Trying to live your life in style

Well that's okay, you ain't no crook Cause nobody's off the hook I remember you when, looking like a teenager How you have become a man with all the power Running the moon and ground, you would ever have thought Hanging with a home-own hairdresser You would become the one desired In every woman's heart But you never would lose your heart with those little boys

Haven't fallen down in a while Sitting here walking the line Well that's okay Cause I have looked And nobody's off the hook The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.