The Bulwark Podcast - Tommy Vietor: The 'Peace' President

Episode Date: December 5, 2025

Trump is overseeing extrajudicial killings off the coast of Venezuela but nothing was going to stop him from getting a peace prize—even if it’s a fake one from super highly reputable FIFA. He also helped himself to a federal agency that used to work on peace initiatives, but which Elon DOGE’d. Democrats should embrace the spirit of McCain and focus on the massive corruption in the administration around crypto, the ballroom, the pardons, and more. At the same time, the Dems have a disconnect between leaders and the base over Israel, Netanyahu, and AIPAC. Plus, Candace may be less worried about the French taking her out than she plays on her podcast, and Fox doesn’t seem like it’s rooting for war in Venezuela. Tommy Vietor joins Tim Miller for the weekend pod. show notes Tommy's podcast, "Pod Save the World"  Hillary on TikTok influencing young people's opinions on Israel  Ben Rhodes's piece on Israel in the NYT Tim's playlist Get 15% off OneSkin with the code BULWARK at https://www.oneskin.co/BULWARK #oneskinpod

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Go to Talkspace.com slash military to get started today. That's talkspace.com slash military. Hello and welcome to the Bullwark podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. I'd welcome to the show, host of Pod Save the World and also Pod Save America. Not that successful in either account so far. It's Tommy Vitor. What's up, man?

Hey, good to see you. Has the Pod saved America? could yet. We thought the name was funny. It was like a bit, anyway. It was supposed to be like a Reverend Wright quote or something. I know. It's tough.

I know. I've got some regrets about podcast names myself. We can we can do some navel gazing on that later. There's a lot of stuff happening outside in the world. And as a world, though, as you know, I figured I figured I'd bring you in to talk about it. So you told me you fall asleep to my show. So I just want to make true.

And I did. And I did. On the flight here to D.C., I made it through about the first 26 minutes or So, before dozing off a little bit. So I'm hoping you can educate me on the stuff that I missed. You missed the Cash Patel part, but that's whatever. I did miss it. I heard the tease, but I missed that.

People can go over to Potip World and hear the Cash Patel stuff at the end. I'm sure it was gold. Let's start with Venezuela. It's been obviously the big story all week. We did this so-called double tap. The phrase I hate is kind of bloodless phrase to describe the murder from sky of two people swimming in the Caribbean Sea. And yesterday, there was a briefing over.

in Congress where certain members of House and Senate got to review the actual video of what happened. Congressman Jim Hines from Democrat from Connecticut, for example, said, you know, it was one of the most, I think the word was reprehensible things he's ever seen or something in that effect. You know, just the fact that we took out these two people who were just, you know, after their ship had already exploded. The senator from Arkansas, though, Tom Cotton had a different take.

And he went in front of the cameras wearing kind of like a scarf that you would wear if you were a if you were kind of an antiques dealer in Arkansas, like a homosexual antiques dealer. And he had this to say about the bombing. Yeah, I want to thank Admiral Bradley and General Kane for coming to brief about the strikes on September 2nd, which were righteous strikes. These are narco terrorists who are trafficking drugs that are destined for the United States to kill thousands of Arkansas and millions. of Americans. I saw two survivors trying to flip a boat, loaded with drugs, bound for the United States, back over, so they could stay in the fight.

What kind of boat was this? It was like a canoe, these two guys? They must have had the cantalope calves, the cannolope arms to be able to flip over, flip the boat back over that was on fire? I thought Pete Hanksis said the boat was on fire and he had to leave because of the fog of war. The bow's on fire for an hour, and then they could finally see these two individuals who were clinging to the wreckage trying to survive. I guess the plan in Tom Cotton's mind was to flip the boat over, paddle to shore by a giant fan to dry out all the cocaine, sell it to the United States, use that money to buy an F-35, and then wage war on the United States as a narco-terrorist. It's the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my fucking life.

How are they even advancing it with a straight face? The whole thing is so ridiculous. I mean, like, there's kind of the narrow outrage about what happened, you know, with this. you know, bombing of the, of the two shipwrecked, you know, individuals, supposedly drug traffickers. Their whole argument is absurd. He's going in front of the microphone. It's like, well, you know, they're going to kill thousands of Arkansasans and millions of Americans. It's like, how? How? What do you, in the lengthier part of the clip, he compares it to what the same thing we do off the boats of Somalia or Yemen, if people still had bombs or explosives or terrorists,

or terrorists, like they didn't have bombs or explosives. They're not even accusing them having that. You're saying that they had Coke. It's like, how is cocaine killing millions of Americans? Like, what are you talking about? Yeah. I mean, they're trying to do this game where they're also suggesting it was fentanyl, and like every expert says there's no fentanyl coming at a Venezuela. Fentanyl is coming from chemicals created in China, shipped to Mexico, produced there,

and then sent to the U.S. I mean, the OLC memo is basically saying that we are in the Office of Legal Counsel over the Department of Justice, that we are in an armed conflict with these drug traffickers. I guess either because the drugs. Right, we've updated the term. We have to call them narco-terrorists now. Narco-terrorist. Right, I'm sorry.

I forgot we invented a term. Because we are... It's the latinx of the right. We have to call them narco-terrorist now. We have a new... The narco-terrorist. I guess the weapon is either the drug which kills the people or the money you make from selling the drug,

which I guess you can then buy military equipment. I mean, the problem with debating the second strike double-tap thing is the entire policy is illegal. It's like blatantly so. made up. It's crazy. Narco-terrorists isn't a term. They are just killing people. It's extrajudicial murder off the coast of Venezuela, full stop. Right. And everybody would know what to call it if it was, you know, if we were just yeating people in Prospect Park who are like selling dine bags. You know, it's like, what are we doing? You don't get summary execution for, for drug dealing,

even if that's what they're doing. The whole thing is, I've been watching Fox all morning, but it's kind of noteworthy Fox isn't really like banging the drums of war on this one I don't know where you're at I know that you also like me monitor the mega media a lot and you're not hearing a lot of criticism

of them from people other than Rand Paul you're just getting a lot of anti-ante stuff from the right you know which is like these wussy libs don't want us to kill the drug dealers they just love drug dealers you hear a lot of that it's not really reminiscent to me of like you know O2 Iraq war Stoke.

Like, who's for? It seems to me like Marco is the only person that's for this. Maybe Stephen Miller. Tim, I wanted to ask you this, because you worked for Jeb, you know Miami politics. Every time I reach, like, you know, you know some of the people in the kind of MAGA world I reach out to. They're some of the same ones you do. Whenever I reach out to them, I'm like, what the hell is happening off the coast of Venezuela?

What is up with this regime change operation? None of them can explain it. None of them think is a good idea. None of them get the politics except for saying, like, oh, this is Marco Rubio's, like, 2028 play. But do you really think that this would be popular in Florida? Like, there was an entire Politico story with a bunch of Republican, you know, Miami-based operatives saying that Republicans will never lose the state again if Trump does a regime change, which just seems a little short-sighted to me. I think in both points, it's related to the immigration policy. And I think that the only

reason why Marco has support for his like regime change war in Venezuela is because Stephen Miller, who I alluded to, you know, can use this as a rationalization for like their most extreme desires on deportations, right? That's why they're calling them narco-terrorists and in part to pretend like this is a justified war and also in part to you have the emergency powers related to immigration. And so I think that's why they're doing it. I think it would be very interesting to see what happens in South Florida in the midterms. And I don't, you know, I did spend some time down there 10 years ago, but like the politics have changed so much, you know, that I think far be it for me to try to like divine how the Cubans and also Venezuelans

and Nicaraguans and others that have immigrated to Florida are like feeling about all this, both this war policy and the immigration. But I will tell you, I was talking to somebody in the Haitian community down there who said that like they obviously there's a ton of outrage about the taking away the TPS and the deportations. But they said that, you know, it hasn't gotten as much attention. but the ICPB stuff is happening in South Florida. And like some in the Haitian community have had some chuckles a little bit at, you know, people getting their comeuppance in, you know, the Trump supporting crowd,

more in the Cuban community down there. I think it's a little bit not known. And I don't think anybody really predicted that, you know, South Florida was going to go from being for Hillary in 2016 pretty significantly to being like Trump's like best metro area in 24. Is it not possible that that could reverse? I think it is, or maybe the opposite, or maybe they're super excited. You know what I mean?

I think that it's a little bit harder, you know, to predict than people might think. Yeah, I mean, look, the political story kind of got my goat because the suggestion was, you know, just deposing Maduro would be clean and it would make a bunch of Venezuelans happy. And that was kind of the only equity here. Like, like, we don't have a long history of getting dragged into quagmires in places or that, you know, the deportation of hundreds of Venezuelan men to a tort. or prison where, you know, Andri was raped by guards. Like, that won't have an impact on how they feel about the Trump administration. So it was just sort of like a weird kind of bloodless, sickening argument. I've talked to people, though, that worked for Trump in the first term, who said that he genuinely detests Maduro. He genuinely wants the oil. But what's strange is, it sounds like

Maduro has offered him basically anything he wants. Like, Trump called him, it was like, you have one week to get the fuck out of the country. And Maduro offered all this access to, you know, Venezuelan oil fields or whatever, and that wasn't enough for Trump. It's like someone is pushing him further and further to go for this kind of regime change option. So what do you think? Will there be bombing on the land? I think Trump wants to do it on the cheap. Like, I think Trump wants the pressure to force Maduro out. So far it has failed. We'll see if the CIA starts messing around and doing things on the covert action side. Like, you know, if all of a sudden the power grid goes down, you know, maybe we'll know why. Trump keeps promising to hit targets on the land in Venezuela. I don't

know what those will be. Is it going to be like anti-aircraft sites? It's going to be military sites? Is it going to be like a drug processing plants? We don't know. There's no clarity. There's no strategy. No one can explain it. It's just crazy. Drug processing plants? Like some cocaine facilitation, like 10% or 8% of, you know, cocaine goes through Venezuela. So says the State Department, right? Like maybe something affiliated with that. I was interested to hear, forget who it was, the economist. Oh, no, is David from, not an economist said that cocaine prices are down, actually. It's been one area where Trump's policies are working. We're not feeling a pinch.

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Please support our show and tell them we sent you. All right. Well, amidst the war crimes in the Caribbean, I do have some exciting news for the president. He's got a name on a new building. Nice. The State Department renamed the former Institute of Peace to reflect what they said in a statement is the greatest deal maker. our nation's history, and it will now be called the Donald J. Trump Institute of Peace.

Marco Rubio posted that President Trump will be remembered by history as the president of peace. It's time our State Department displays that. So, you know, Mark, it's a big day for Marco. I was like, in the morning, we're going to do some more crimes and bomb people in the Caribbean Sea. In the afternoon, there's little ribbon cutting where he announces that Donald Trump is the president of peace and he gets his name on a building. wonderful did you see the clip that marco tweeted out of donald trump falling asleep as he was speaking it's just like a funny choice for a thing to tweet out um so dozing can we briefly just talk about the like trump ended all war claims because i do find it incredibly galling sure so three things that he

claims he claims to have ended a war between iran and israel as far as i can tell they still don't like each other and trump wants credit trump was engaging in diplomacy with iran trying to cut a deal then the israeli started bombing then we started bombing them and then there was a ceasefire i'm I'm not sure that that's like the most Nobel Prizey option. It's not a W for you? No, it's not a W for me. He also claims that he ended a war between Egypt and Ethiopia. A little problem there is they never had an armed conflict in any way.

There's a diplomatic dispute over a hydroelectric dam that is ongoing. Okay. And then he talks about Ethiopia and Eritrea? There's that Tigray conflict. Do we know what the latest is on that? Well, I mean, you know, Eritrea and Ethiopia, they signed a peace agreement. If that was like back in 2019 and then Abiy Ahmed, who got the Nogh Nobel Prize for that, started working with the Eritreans to slaughter his own people.

So that was not great. That's not really on the list. But he does include Serbia and Kosovo, who, again, have never been at war during the Trump administration. This was all in the 90s. And when they get pressed on what they're talking about, he says Rick Grinnell brought some economic agreement to the Oval Office in 2020, which, again, is that's just not ending a war. It's an economic agreement.

Hmm. Well, I guess I'm going to have to side with you on that one, Tommy. I don't have any much to add. I'm curious, I want to get your expertise on what exactly the end. Institute of Peace is. It does feel a little V-Pish. The whole thing is V-Pish. It's like, obviously, we're going to name it after Trump. Can't call him the peace president's V-Pish? But the original name is also a little bit V-Pish, the Institute of Peace. So can you tell me, like, what happens over there? That was kind of under your remit. Yeah, kind of. I mean,

it's sort of like a quasi- NGO. They train people in conflict zones on programs, like how to prevent violence, how to do mediation. They advise policymakers and have these, like, field teams in places like Iraq or Afghanistan. I thought we cut all that, though. Well, I mean, they did. They fired most of the staff. That's the doge cut all that. Yeah, they doged it in like March, right?

I mean, this was, it was created by an act of Congress in 1984. So blame your guy, Ronnie Reagan. There is real programmatic work happening on the ground. He was really the peace president. But okay. Yeah, well, look, they're trying to tell people like, hand it to the Cold War, no big deal, but whatever. Yeah, sure.

They're saying like, here's how you train election officials. Here you has you train a civil society groups. Here's how you negotiate a ceasefire or mediate a dispute. The idea was we have all these service academies teaching people how to fight wars. What if we have an organization that trains people how to end them? You can call it deepish. That's a worthwhile effort. I guess I'm just struggling, though, to understand why Donald Trump would want his name on the building of an organization that's roles and responsibilities are something that he doesn't think the government should be doing.

It's just like an empty. It's like the Atlanta Sedi Casino. It's like having your name on something that doesn't exist anymore, right? I mean, who is in there? Like, what are they doing? Who's working on the Donald Trump Institute of Peace? It is so funny when you think about it. Like, yeah, Marco Rubio went to him.

It's like, sir, we're going to slap your name on this defunct organization, and it's going to be great. Sounds good. Yeah, who does that benefit. Yeah, you know what's kind of similar to is the FIFA Priests Prize, which he also is being awarded today, I believe. It's a storied prize. It's a storied trophy, you know, it goes back generations, Pelae. I think was the first winner of it. Is that right?

You're more of a soccer queen than me. I don't know anything about whether Paley got the FIFA Pesvres. I can tell you a little bit about FIFA. I think we made up the FIFA Pesprice. I think so, too. I'm pretty sure it was made up. The marriage between FIFA and the head of Egiani and Fentino and Donald Trump is absolutely perfect because they are just a staggeringly corrupt organization.

I mean, the last two World Cups include Qatar and Saudi Arabia, places that aren't exactly suited climate-wise to host a giant soccer tournament in the summer. But, you know, you bring some bags of cash, you pay off the right people, and all of a sudden, here we go. I thought you were going to pick up my sarcasm, but since you did, and I do have to deadpan for the audience. This is why Sam Stein's a better match for me. He's always there with the facts. The FIFA Peace Prize was announced on 5 November 2025 by FIFA leadership. What is this? We're on 5 December. December. So it's a one-month-old awards. I didn't know that.

It's officially called the FIFA Peace Prize Dash. Football unites the world. Its purpose is to honor individuals who have taken exceptional and extraordinary actions for peace. And thereby have united people across the world. The award is meant to be annual. Excited to see who's going to win next year is Peace Prize. Yeah, maybe MBS. Yeah.

Maybe you can throw him there. You know, they do want to acknowledge. You know, people have different kind of gender identities to, you know. Maybe Netanyahu. NBS with his intersex. Netanyahu. We're to get to Netanyahu in a second. I know, I know how, I know what you think about.

Nanyahu over there. That's great. Why don't we just do it now, though? Fuck it. Who needs the fucking outline. Your colleague at Pod Save the World, Ben Rhodes, wrote in New York Times, peace headline was this is the story of how Democrats blew it on Gaza.

It created a lot of a stir, a lot of discussion. Oh, yeah. I was like, you know, I should probably have been on the pod to talk about it. It's like, I don't have it in me. It's Friday. It's a long week. So maybe I'll have Tommy on to talk about, to talk about Ben. That's right. Okay, great. So tell me about the, tell me what the argument that he's making first. I'll go through a couple things. I mean, honestly, I think the argument is like, let's just state reality. Like, BB Dent Yahoo is a corrupt right-wing authoritarian who before the September 7th attacks

was trying to shred Israel's judicial system to basically keep himself out of jail. And Ben recommends that the United States stop providing military assistance to a very rich country that we support the ICC, the international criminal courts work no matter who they're prosecuting, whether it's Vladimir Putin or Bibi Net Yahoo, that the U.S. very loudly and clearly oppose annexation of the West Bank or the ethnic cleansing of Gaza, and then do take real steps to help develop an alternative Palestinian leaderships that isn't Hamas and then also just generally stand up for democracy in Israel, which I think is a pretty good list when you compare it to what's actually happening right now and with the Trump administration.

Obviously, there's going to be people that want to color the history of what happened there in ways of benefits them politically. I'm kind of more interested in the forward-looking part. Like a big part of what Ben was arguing that there was a discussion about, which I saw Rokana tweeted about it and others. was like how Democrats should talk about this going forward. Talk about that a little bit. I think it's worth pointing out that Rokana tweeted Ben's op-ed

and then got savagely attacked by the A-PAC Twitter account. And I just think that like just- Savagely? I mean, like they're dunking on a member of, sorry, fair enough. They got attacked by the fucking A-PAC Twitter account. Like, why is A-PAC dunking on a member of Congress for sharing an op-ed by someone else? I think that speaks to how much some quarters, some critics of people like Ben or me or whatever, want to constrain the speech in like kind of the 40-yard lines of the debate on this policy, right? I mean, I think that is kind of like the elephant in the room here, which is there are these voices who are just trying to shut you down and silence you all the time if you kind of break from the party orthodoxy.

And I think Ben is writing this because he's trying to give Democrats some courage in the wake of this catastrophe in Gaza. And again, like the United States gives Israel like $3.3.3 billion a year in military assistance. They're about to renegotiate what is usually a 10-year memorandum of understanding that kind of governs how much we'll be giving the Israelis. These Israelis are this time looking for 20 years, right? So as Ben is recommending we cut off this funding, they're demanding 20 years. In the West Bank, there are these like constant settler pogroms where, you know, essentially like violent terrorists are attacking Palestinians and trying to take their land. that is enabled by the government. The plan for Gaza's future is basically permanent occupation and a leadership board

that is run by Donald Trump, Tony Blair, Steve Whitkoff, Jared Kushner. Do you see Axios leaked the kind of Board of Peace leadership? You get a couple rungs down. There's finally some Palestinians in there, but it's just a permanent occupation. And then also, Trump is trying to get Netanyahu apart. Like that's his primary message he's advancing when he calls Netanyahu. He's tweeting about getting the guy apart, and you gave a speech about it in the Knesset. It's crazy.

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wildgrain.com slash the bulwark. That's wildgrain.com slash the bulwark. We can use promo code the bulwark at checkout. I want to get in a second to like what the potential criticisms or concerns are related to that. But just first, though, on the political side and on that advice that you're talking about, about going after the Trump administration on how they're handling that. and, like, being on offense on this issue still, if you're the Democrats.

One thing that I've just noticed kind of out there in the debate, and there are a lot of weaknesses to this parallels, so just kind of bear with me, and let's not nitpick it. You kind of see where I'm going directionally. It's like Trump benefited in 16 with the Republican base, who was frustrated that Republican leadership was not speaking out enough about immigration, right? And Trump went out there and was like, I am going to take a hard line on this. This is an issue that I care about. you can trust me that I'm going to fight on this.

And that, like, gave him a lot of room to kind of go against Republican Orthodoxy on a lot of other stuff. And I do see, like, a little bit of a parallel to this I'm noticing in the discussion on the Democratic side. We're like, there are Democratic-based voters who are just really upset with how the party handled the Israel-Gaza issue. And they feel like they're not being heard. And that if there are Democratic politicians and leaders that go out and stake out a position, on this that, you know, has moral clarity about what happened to the people of Gaza, then that might give them credibility with base voters to, like, not tow the party line on everything else.

Yes. And I just find that kind of interesting. And you see this a little bit with some of the lefty guys with, like, Platner and Zoran, but I think that would also probably work for people who are not necessarily from, like, that camp. I don't know. What do you make of that proposition? I agree with this suggestion that like there's just a threshold credibility or believability issue if you don't sort of state the obvious about what's happening.

Look, there's been a clip going around this week of Hillary Clinton seeming to suggest that like all young people are kind of like brainwashed or getting bad information from TikTok and that's how they feel how they feel about what happened in Gaza. And I just feel like do you really believe that? I just profoundly disagree with that. Like people who picked up the New York Times were reading articles about like tens of thousands of kids getting killed. And people don't understand whether you're a base voter or moderate or whatever else, like why the United States was just funneling arms into this conflict. And I do think if you can't be honest about that, if you seem like you are scared about upsetting

like special interest groups in Washington so you won't state the obvious or just do a better job explaining why it's in the U.S. interest to funnel billions of dollars a year to a foreign country that, by the way, is rich for weapons that are being used to bomb Gaza? Like, I do think people kind of tune you out on other stuff. The Hillary thing was wild. I felt this representative of how people feel like that the Democratic establishment is just out of touch with what, with other bases out on these issues. Just like kind of lecturing and being like, misinformation on TikTok is the only reason that people are upset about this. Like, that's, come on.

Like, that's just not real. And that's like a widespread belief, right? I mean, there were a lot of members of Congress who talked about their motivation for voting for the TikTok ban was because of the anti-Israel content. And I'm not saying there isn't like propaganda on TikTok, sure, on TikTok from the Palestinian side, but also like there's a pretty well-known reporting on the Israelis like paying influencers to come, you know, report on their stuff. Yeah, I mean, Bibi said that he was going to use TikTok as a weapon. Yes.

In an interview a couple months ago. Oh, sure. I mean, David Fromm was a couple of weeks ago and pointed out that, like, some of the viral videos going on about the atrocities and Gaza were actually things from the Syria war 10 years ago. People weren't upset. Yeah, like, that stuff is happening for sure. But, you know, the way that Hillary framed it, I'll put a link in for people who want to see all of it. I didn't know you're going to bring that up, so I don't have the audio. But for people who want to watch it who are not familiar, it's, I think it's pretty representative of some of the tensions on the democratic side.

Here's my worry about what I'm seeing, though, from kind of the more left anti-Israel, anti-Zionist, whatever you want to call it side. on this. And I wonder what you think. I was talking about it's a little about Chris Hayes a couple weeks ago. Do you have worries about like how you tread the turf of criticizing APEC, criticizing Israel without like providing aid and comfort to actual anti-Semites or providing this sort of, you know, advancing more of the mindset that there's like a secret cabal of rich people that are controlling, of rich Jews that are controlling the Congress. And I worry about sometimes about how, you know, the arguments against APAC end up, A, like, leading people down a path towards, like, anti-Semitism, and B, even worse, leading people down a path towards Nick Fuente's system.

And, you know, and I talk about this little bit as Chris and how the algorithms are, like, are driving people who are watching Gaza content to Candace, we're going to talk about later, and to Fuentes and others. What do you think about that worry? Yeah, let me start with the APAC and then get to the Fuentes thing because I think they're related. Like, on APEC, they're not all powerful. I never, I don't think that. I've never said that.

Like, they're not even close. But I do think we should just be honest about what this organization believes in the values they're advancing. I mean, APAC endorsed dozens of insurrectionist Republicans who wanted to overturn the 2020 election. So I don't feel like they really give a fuck about our democracy. So point that one. They're a good company there.

I guess my pushback on that would be short. Yeah, that's bad. It's one of my list. Welcome to the club of interest groups that supported the fucking insurrectionist Republicans. And so it's not just the Jews that did that. So it's pretty much everybody. But like we're the Democratic Party, right?

So it's like, do you want support from people doing that? Also, they routinely interfere in Democratic Party primaries to attack progressive candidates almost exclusively on issues that have nothing to do with Israel. That's just like a weird thing that happens. It's often through carve-outs like DMFI and other super PACs, but whatever. And essentially, like, they demand that their candidates offer full-throated support to BidN Yahoo. And I just like, I don't think the United States should offer any foreign country or any foreign leader, like, unquestioned, unequivocal support. I think that's just

bad. And so, like, on the broader point, like, talking about this issue sucks, right? You get savage. You could call an anti-Semit by people you've never met or never spoken to. Jonathan Greenblatt, the head of the ADL, he wrote this op-ed that lumped me in with, you remember Daryl Cooper, the guy who said that Winston Churchill was the real baddie in World War II? Oh, yeah. He said that Hitler was the good guy and that Churchill was the bad guy in World War II. Yeah. Mardermade, I think, his handle. Yeah, right. So he throws me in an op-ed with that guy in the New York Post because I said that Trump got manipulated into doing Netanyahu's dirty work when he bombed Iran. I would argue that is objectively true. I remember Trump wanted a diplomatic deal with Iran. The Israelis started

bombing them, and then we came in to do mop-up work and took out Fordo. So, like, there's also these insane groups that are attacking Ms. Rachel. Were you a Ms. Rachel household? No. I understand my role as a parent, which is I get to propagandize my own children up until the age of nine or 10. And so I didn't put on any annoying music or content in my house because she doesn't know that exists. So I love Ms. Rachel might be a nice person, but I just, you know, you're slander aside. My child listens to Lady Gaga. Okay. So like, look, Ms. Rachel is a YouTube content creator for kids. Zero of her content mentions anything, any issue. It's like you sing Hop Little Bunny, right? It's like, give me a break. But like there's an organization that put her on a list of

it's anti-Semites of the year because she posted on Instagram about like Palestinian kids. So my response to your question is the groups that are trying to police speech on this issue are making the problem worse with these insane, dishonest hyperbolic attacks because it's choking off real debate. And when that debate is choked off, it goes to a Nick Fuentes type platform, right? Like I watched a two and a half hour debate hosted by Alex Jones between Dinesh DeSuzza and Nick Fuentes that was actually very substantive and interesting around the Iran strikes. Honestly, Fuentes beat Dinesh, I would argue.

It's not surprising. Dinesh is an idiot. And I'm not someone who wants Israel destroyed. Far from it. I thought October 7th was a fucking evil, unjustifiable act of terror. They massacred civilians. It is not some righteous anti-colonial event.

Like, I find that argument abhorrent. And Jonathan Greenblatt knows that. But when he like smears me and other substantive critics of like Iran policy, and lumps us together with martyr-made or, you know, Churchill is the baddie guy. Like, I think that's a huge mistake to police speech. And I think it leads to reactionary comments from people like Tucker Carlson, who clearly is just like, like, Tucker's got a lot of issues. I don't pretend to get in his head.

But you can tell he's really, really angry about the way some of his, you know, policy disputes have been characterized as anti-Semitic. I hear all that. I think, obviously, there's like absurd, you know, arguments. I feel like any time I talk to somebody who is extremely passionate about this issue on one side or the other, they drive me into the other side's arms. And I think that's particularly true about the Jonathan Greenblatt's of the world. Is that true right now?

Is that what you're on the fence? We'll see what your answer is to this question. When I talked to Hayes about this two weeks ago, I just got to tell you, we clicked some of it, put it on Instagram, put it on social media. I mean, Chris Hayes is like, I think was calling this a genocide. and saying that Israel should stop the war like three days after it started. And yet even still, you know, because our conversation was not as strident as some people would like, I mean, there was some stuff in the comments of our Instagram that ostensibly, just based on my judgment,

like just looking at their accounts, like we're coming from lefty people that were just like objectively anti-Semitic, like, you know, about like ending Israel and about how the, you know, the Jews are controlling us and all this sort of stuff. And so I just, like, do you worry about that? Like, do you just worry about how you talk about this stuff without either drawing or exacerbating, you know, from regular people views that are anti-Semitic, drawing out or exacerbating their existing views? I see the same stuff, you see. I mean, I, you know, I get constantly...

Is that not worry you? Do Instagram comments worry me? No, usually. Look, does anti-Semitism worry me? Yes. My daughter went to a Jewish preschool for a whole... while. When I would drop her off, I would drive in one layer of security, past another, past a third, and it was because this school had faced real threats. So, like, this is not an abstraction

for me. And it really, like, personally offended me when people suggested otherwise because my wife is Jewish, like my daughter went to the school. Like, the suggestion that, like, I'm okay with this is fucked up. Like, anti-Semitism existed long before October 7th. It existed long before the state of Israel, before the Holocaust. It is a centuries-old scourge that is a century-old scourge that is plagued humanity, right? And we should just be self-aware about that. I think that there are crazy people on the far right, and there are crazy people on the far left and strident people who will, I mean, I hear the same things you do in the comment of being like, like, why didn't you say genocide enough times in this clip or, right, you know, or why would you platform or talk about

Miss Rachel because she does X, Y, or Z? It's like a lot of it is just what aboutism. I think all we all can do is try to have an honest conversation about what we believe. And I think like it's troubling to me that this is an issue where some things should be treated out of bounds, like anti-Semitism and racism are out of bounds, but like debating whether we should be giving a foreign country $3 billion a year in military assistance is not out of bounds, in my view. All right. This is good. I want to get you into more trouble next. I like it. If you could stop somebody from breaking in before they got inside, why wouldn't you? Most old school security systems go off after someone's already in your house. What's the point of that? You know,

Ole Miss could have really used a simply safe security system to warn them that we were coming to steal Lane Kiffin. You know, the alarm came out too late. We're already inside the house in Oxford. Does that analogy work? We'll go with that. Simply Safe is different. It's proactive with a double layer of defense. It stops crimes before they start. First, AI-powered cameras spot potential threats outside, then live agents step in, talking to the person through the camera, letting them know they're on video and the police will be dispatched if they don't leave. They can even trigger a loud siren or spotlight. There are no long-term contracts or hidden fees. You can cancel any time. It's named the best home security system by U.S. News and World Report for five years run it.

You know who really is a simply safe in addition to me? Our podcast today, Tommy Vitor, been talking about it, bragging about it. It's kind of a cross-promotional deal. You live in L.A. You never know what kind of people, you know, ex-actors. It could be snooping around. I'm not going to tell you what neighborhood he's in, but he's got SimplySafe, and those kiddos are safe. Thank God. This month only take 50% off any new system. This is one of the best prices you'll ever see for SimplySafe. Don't miss it. Hit SimplySafe.com slash the bulwark. Again, that's simplysafe.com slash the bulwark and lock in your discount. There's no safe like SimplySafe. I don't talk about the Minnesota welfare fraud story. Yeah. Weird story. This is pretty complicated. The gist of it is there's a welfare fraud scandal where that costs Minnesota taxpayers.

is about a billion dollars, like these kind of concentric circles of corporations. And it was, you know, centered around Somali immigrants to the country. A lot of folks on the right now have used that as part of the anti-immigration effort. But there's also, I'm very legitimate things. I mean, more than legitimate. It's crazy the amount of money that was taken from Minnesota taxpayers as part of the scheme. Tim Walls is somewhat implicated in that as governor. you know, part of the policies they put in place made, made it easier for this.

They've been reporting on this for a while, and it kind of took them a long time to actually investigate it. They ended up starting the investigation back in 2022 when Wells was governor, you should say. So the details of this, I think, are pretty bad. My interest of it is more in kind of how do Democrats handle it. And, you know, there seems like not a full circling the wagons, excusing it, but, you know, because they'll pay lip service to the fact that this is bad. but you're not really seeing Democrats kind of rail against this.

And I'm sort of combining this with what I'm seeing with the chewy situation in Illinois, where Marie Guz and Camp Perez speaking out against him, trying to steal that congressional seat. And then we talked earlier this week about this pardon of Quayar and Hakeem Jeffries kind of defends. Yeah, that was weird. Quayor after Trump pardons him. And I'm like, I kind of feel like there's room and demand right now for some Democrats to be in the like McCain spirit. And I mean this in the reform.

sense, not in the neocons sense, like when he ran against Bush and against corruption and against campaign finance reform member, McCain Feingold. And like, I would love to see some Democrats, like, not just say, oh, what happened Minnesota was bad, but like, what happened in Minnesota is bad? And this is, and like, we have a corrupt system that we need to fix. And, like, we need to actually, like, have outrage over this and have, and have moral outrage about the people that allowed this to persist for a while and have moral outrage about the machine politicians that are protecting each other.

Anyway, that's a little ran I have. I'm curious what your response is to all that. Like, it's a no-brainer to me. I was talking to the CEO of Swing Left the other day, and they have this program where they're just knocking on every single door in a community. They're not going down, like, Democratic Party lists and doing turnout stuff. They're just trying to, like, do, like, deep listening. And the number one issue they heard was not cost and affordability.

Deep listening, is that what you said? It's a term of art. I don't know, man. Just let me be a lib for a minute. Like 10 minute. I'm trying to think about what deep listening would sound like for me. You put on some Enya, and you go like this. You do this emoji.

It was like 10 or 15-minute conversations, the kind I've never had on a door in my life because I'm just like, are you going to vote? The number one issue they heard was not about cost and affordability. It was about the system being corrupt and broken. That was the number one thing they heard. That is like the most pervasive political feeling they heard from Republicans and Democrats. So Democrats, we need, just like the Israel thing, we just need to be consistent here, right? If we support the ICC, it's for Putin and Netanyahu, okay, not to bring it back.

And so I think I think 20 more minutes on Israel. Nope. I don't. I think identifying the problem. Like this fraud is awful and they should prosecute the shit out of anyone involved. They should put more oversight in place. It seems like there was some really lax oversight that allowed these numbers to balloon. It seems like it's spiraling out of a set of actions that happened after COVID that led to a lot of fraud.

I mean, like the PPP program, I think the inspector general said there was like $200 billion in fraud there. So, like, there was some problem, problematic fast spending. Now, the weird thing, Tim, so I agree. Like, Democrats should hammer this. The weird thing, as I'm sure seen, is Trump's response has been just demagoguing Somalis. It's like collective punishment against all Somalis. Like, he basically fell asleep in that cabinet meeting and, like, woke up and, like,

startled himself awake so he could, like, spout off some racist thing about a Smollies. And then he's yelling at Ilhan Omar for some reason. Like, as far as I can tell, she doesn't have oversight over these programs. it would be the governor or the mayor of the city. But I'm with you. Like Obama McCain ran on ethics and lobbying reform really effectively. Obama ran on ethics and lobbying reform in 2006 and 2008. Like I think it's absolutely critical.

It's core of our message. Back to your point earlier, it's like the thing that gives you credibility to talk about everything else. If you cannot admit the system is fucking broken and not working for anyone, they don't believe you on anything else. Yeah. I like I hear I guess is how I would sum it up is like what Trump is doing is obviously racist and his immigration policy is sick. and I just want, you know, I'm like, I pulled up what Walls' response was, and he said, we welcome support and investigating and prosecuting crime, but pulling a PR stunt and indiscriminately targeting immigrants is not a real solution.

Like, that's true, but I just like, I want you to be as mad at the people that stole a billion dollars from your, from your citizens as you are at Trump for being a racist, right? Like, Trump is a racist. I'm mad at that, too. We're both mad at that. Okay. I just also want you to be mad at, you know, at the way that the system was abused. And that is the part where sometimes I feel like you're getting a little bit of punch pulling from Democrats. They don't want to get in trouble.

They don't want, I don't know if they don't want like activist groups mad at them or like what is behind that or maybe they just aren't actually mad about it. So they need to kind of fake it. I don't know. I don't know what it is. But I guess that's my, that's my constructive criticism. No, no. They should be furious about this. And this is why one like, we're health care.gov.

I'm sure people remember we launched a website for the new ACA health care program and it collapsed and didn't work. And that was the maddest Barack Obama has ever been because if you're going to be a liberal and, and say, like, we should have a bigger government because it helps people. It has to be effective and competent. And there can't be fraud and corruption like this because it infuriates people and they will destroy you. And you're right. We have to be mad about this shit.

And there was some reporting. I can't remember it was like one of the Minnesota papers or like the Times report on this, that some efforts to conduct more oversight on one of these groups got a response that was like, if you do this, we'll call you racist. And that led them to stop that oversight, right? And I do think, like, getting past that kind of cynical racial policy. is very important because ultimately the people who were hurt here were like Somali kids in this community or like poor kids in Minnesota. And that's what we should be focused on. That's who we

should be outraged for. Speaking of corruption, back to the Honduras pardon. Let's get to earlier. Our guy, Juan. Orlando Hernandez, J-O-H. I mentioned this a couple times this week, but, you know, a few more things have happened. One thing I didn't realize, I think I learned this from Pod Save the World, as he was also accused of murdering a witness in prison. Yeah. Yeah, in addition to the drug dealing. SBF had a different experience with him in prison, the crypto fraudster. He was tweeting this morning that J.O.H was the most innocent man he's ever met in his life. He's very gentle and soft-spoken. In what context?

He never heard him say anything bad except for when he taught him a cuss word. So that's what SBF had to say. It's a strange situation. There's a lot of layers. In addition to doing the drug trafficking and potentially the murder, he also is a big crypto guy. That's probably why SBF likes him, a lot of Trump's big crypto friends. I'm sure we're lobbying for this because Honduras was going to, you know, trying to be a junior El Salvador and have like a little safe space for Peter Thiel to, you know, trade shit coins in exchange for twinkblood. What do you make of it?

Yeah, so you're referencing a thing called Prospera, which was this like charter city or. that's a special economic zone where it was like an island that was considered like a libertarian enclave with low taxes and light regulation. And it was supposed to attract a bunch of startups from like biotech and crypto. And they recognized Bitcoin as legal tender. And it was backed by this VC firm that had investors like Peter Thiel and Mark Andreessen. And then there was a change of administrations and the new president walked back the laws that allowed for these zones. And the prosperous backers were suing Honduras for like $12 billion. It was like two-thirds of their GDP or something crazy like that. So yeah, it's clear that like J-O-H had friends in the MAGA world

that include crypto billionaires, but also Roger Stone and Matt Gates for some reason, kind of getting back to the weird Miami thing. But either way, like this is a pretty bad guy. You know, like J-O-H allowed, I mean, DOJ said that he facilitated the importation of 400 tons of cocaine into the United States over 20 years. And so we're freeing this guy. By Tom Cotton's math, that would have killed 600 million Americans. That's right. Or Christy Nome's math, 10x that.

And the guy of the president of Honduras, he also had a brother who was so corrupt that he stamped his own initials on cocaine he was manufacturing and went to jail. This is Tony Hernandez. He went to jail. Like on the baggies? I don't know. How did that work? I don't know if these are like press pills.

On the rocks. Yeah, I don't sure what we're talking. I never procured one myself. I can't attest to the quality. We're going to do a little follow-up on that. I'm not sure how that would work. Yeah, I know. I bet you'll follow up.

Shut up. I got in trouble earlier this week on the next level because I was spitballing and I was like, I mean, what? 15% of Americans. I heard that. I caught that. The listeners are like 15%. What's the real number? Did you get a room?

It's two or three percent. Okay. Yeah, mostly. I was going off the cuff. I was trying to be generous to the, to the, to the, to the, Kristi-Nome arguments about, like, what is the potential number of people who could die? Sure, sure. Anyhow, but yeah.

It's small than we thought. Got it. But, you know, the ironies are like, we're letting this guy at a prison as we're pushing Maduro out of the country. Also, Trump's tweet about pardoning J.O.H or Orlando Hernandez was in his endorsement of this guy, Tito Sforra, who was running for president in the same party as Hernandez. But, like, Hernandez is loathed in Latin America. So it's very, the whole thing was very weird. It made no sense politically.

I still can't explain it. I guess he probably just got paid off somewhere and we'll find out eventually. I know. I always, you know, libertarianism was always attractive to me, obviously, as a young man. Since deading. Yeah, and it's just like, it's one of those things that just never works in practice, kind of like communism. A libertarian island in Central America, that seems nice to me.

I feel like I could live a life there, you know, not as many rules, you know, you get the beach. And then when you see it in practice, you know, like, oh, okay. Okay, well, these are the people that I would have to live with, actually, on that island. And that seems not as great. Yeah, it seems like the worst people in the world on your sea-steading island. Yeah, that's tough. What is the Democrats' obligation? How do you navigate this?

How do you talk about all this stuff? And it's all the bullshit, all the corruption. It's all happening so fast. Like, do you lean into the pardoning part of it, to the drug traffic? I talked to this little bit of Sam yesterday. Do you actually make it more about, like, how Donald Trump is in league with these oligarchs? he's doing pardons for their friends. Like, what do you think is the right angle on it?

So, Tim, I was very surprised by the degree to which the, like, East Wing tear down broke through and that people actually cared and, you know, the images went viral. So that kind of makes me think that the talking more about the corruption piece is, like, should be maybe the number one thing we're doing about Trump. I mean, it's not just like the, you know, $300 million cost. It's like bribes from Palantier to pay for this new, you know, monstrosity East Wing building. I think we need to focus on that. I think we need to focus on all the crypto corruption, pardoned the people like J.O.H.

You know, there was a guy the other day who just was pardoned as an insurrectionist was just accused of molesting his nanny is now going back to prison. So I do think, like, the message is he's doing deals for his friends, the billionaires, they get off scot-free, you know, the justice system doesn't work for them. And you're the one getting screwed because he's. focusing on these things. It's like that kind of message. It's back to your McCain stuff. Yeah. I knew the other thing I was actually for. This is really a dark quiz coming at the end of the show. I always like to give you a world quiz. Tito, the conservative candidate, seems like it might win. They're still counting. What's the status on the votes down there in Honduras? Do you know? I think it was basically tied. It was the right wing party against the center left.

The sort of center right party were essentially tied. There's allegations of fraud now. So we'll see. I think it's an ongoing process. Speaking of fraud, boom, how about that transition? I want to talk about our girl, Candice. You said you were watching the Dinesh Susa versus Nick Fuentes debate, which, boy, that's a Friday night for a dad. I didn't have time for that because I've been spending so much time with Candace. I mean, man, she is a talent. I got to tell you.

For folks who have been missing, it's a big story, both for me as a Candice viewer and also for you and the Ponce. the world context because there's some real geopolitical implications for what's happening with Candace. She has stated she has proof that the French Foreign Legion has sent a baguette wheeling assassin and an Israeli John Wick type figure to kill her. And that is following their successful action against Charlie Kirk. The French Foreign Legion was involved in that assassination as well. She summed up the state of play on her show earlier this week. And I'll just let you guys hear from her yourself. Get comfortable, you guys, because it is going going to be a long week.

I have so many explosive revelations to share with you, revelations to share with you, and now it feels especially urgent, right? Don't you feel a sense of urgency right now? I do. Yes. In the week of me having learned that France apparently paid for my assassination and that the French Foreign Legion was apparently involved and on the ground at UVU on the day of Charlie Kirk's assassination.

And we should probably begin there. there. I agree. I wanted to begin there with you. Yeah. Did you see the man with the beret on the grassy mull at UVU? It is interesting how Candice's story just seems to merge with every other story she cares about.

Tim, I do want to point out before we get going here that I'm looking at the Apple charts, top shows. Candice is in 16 ahead of Bill Simmons, the Bullwork podcast, and Pod Save America. So she's doing something, right? She's ahead of all of us? You guys aren't beating her anymore? You guys had her beat for a while. I'm looking now.

Maybe this is old. Maybe this is wrong. This is all categories. But, uh, what number are you at? Uh, we were at. Uh, well, in terms of news, we're seven. She's five, uh, in news. Good.

Okay. Boy, we're all neck in neck. Yep. When I was last on Provide, Save America, I told you this. That's why I've been, I've been trying to, you know, continue to mention what I've been hearing about MBS being a hermaphrodite. And I don't have any evidence of that. And,

And I thought that, like, our investigation and the calipers and all that, not the calipers, a little tinser we were going to try to use to figure out. I thought that that might help my spot in the rankings. It really hasn't. I mean, I've gone up a little bit since then. But, you know, it's, I'm not really doing Candace numbers yet. No, you need a feud. I do think you need to just pick a Midas Touch brother and just go ham and target.

Candice's thing is so amazing. Candice's tweet about this was so amazing because she was like, I have heard that there was a French Foreign Legion trained assassin, and by the way, there was an Israeli in there, too. She just had to work in, you know, her hobby horse, which is clear, back to our previous conversation, clear-cut anti-Semitism. Yeah. Are you hearing anything from your friends in France?

I know that you were, you know, kind of as a lib in the kind of foreign affairs space. I know that you and the French are probably talking. I mean, have you heard any buzz, any chatter? Not a lot of buzz. I haven't reached out to the Macron's lately. we don't talk that often, but we check in every once in. I do have a Frenchman married into the family, and I was talking with him about this over Thanksgiving.

And I think the French are a little confused why they're doing this lawsuit thing. They're kind of like, why is our president suing this lady over in the U.S.? But yeah, the whole thing is insane. She's a crazy person. Do you follow Candace on Instagram? No. Should I?

Yeah, obviously. Her social life lately has been kind of interesting. I want to pull up some of these pictures for the YouTube crowd. Here she is at a Nashville Christmas party last night. She's with Theo Vaughan, Jason Whitlock, Michael Knowles, a couple of MMA guys. And then over

the weekend, past weekend, we'll pull this up. Here she is taking a selfie with somebody at Dollywood. This Israeli assassin must not be very good at their job. I mean, like, you would think that if she was worried about being assassinated, she probably would not show up to

a Christmas party. No. With every other mega influencer in Nashville like that might be the first place I would start looking I think if I was the Israeli sassad and I'd hacked her phones and you know yeah had any sort of idea where she might be. If I had the French

Foreign Legion on my ass I probably wouldn't be posting on Instagram you're right I would I would I would probably ditch my phone somewhere I'd maybe move out to the desert maybe to Death Valley camp out with Ryan Lizza apparently that's where he's hold up writing Telos you know maybe you can you know find some fellowship there I don't

I don't know what you're talking about with that the um dollywood um dollywood i thought maybe at first when she went to dollywood i was like well okay you know maybe your theory here is that the french don't understand our cultural heritage and they might not be they might not be aware that dollywood is you know has this kind of level of import in the country but i don't know i mean those are just two pretty high profile places for her to go if she's on the run now i didn't realize that dollywood had like a whole resort type thing where you can do like rides and a whitewater rafting thing. I've never been to Hollywood. Have you been? I haven't. I thought about doing it, taking Toulouse there last year

when we had our live Nashville event. It just was like a little too far. Should we all go? Do you have to go as a family? I'd love to go. I love Nashville. The only challenge in Nashville is every other car you see is a bus with a roof cut off filled with some sort of bachelorette. Yeah, we could skip Nashville and like go to the Smoky Mountains for a weekend, you know, going to go to Dollywood. I'm there. She said that she debate TPSA. It doesn't seem like that's going to happen, though. I don't know. I'm excited. If that happens, are you going to be live streaming that, do you think? I'm going to be riveted. I will watch every single minute of this. So I watched the TPSA response. I was hoping for a little more substance, but it was interesting to see that they're going to do this live stream. Now, Candice, I don't know if you saw her response. She said, hey, you guys, you know you scheduled this when I record my podcast every week, which apparently is immovable. She also says she was going to have to find a substitute teacher for her children that she's homeschooling.

Oh, no. That makes me sad. Well, her oldest child's four. Oh, we're not doing a lot of teaching. Just, okay. As somebody with, I think your four-year-old can miss a day. Yeah, you can miss a kindergarten. That's okay. Yeah, I don't know.

I'm not sure of that. That's kind of like, that's like one step below I have to wash my hair that day as far as an excuse. That's crazy. My four-year-old can't miss her homeschooling or his homeschooling or his homeschool. I don't know if it's a boy or girl. Your guy Will Summer has been just dominating the story, by the way, and his piece a few months back about just how deep. the legal trouble she is in was quite informative. I got to say, though, Tim, like, I'm not rooting for a foreign government to silence an American

podcaster, like, kind of no matter how crazy they are. It's a weird one, right? Okay, just to be clear, I know that I may have expressed, you know, more Israel sympathies than you did earlier in the podcast, but I'm definitely on Candace's side over the Israeli John Wick and the Begg yet, like, and the French Foreign Legion. Okay. I mean, I did not want these foreign fuckers coming into our country. and silencing podcasters.

I don't mean silencing with a gun. I mean the lawsuits and the lawsuits. Oh, you're talking about the lawsuit. Yeah. I just wanted to make sure we were clear who Sido is on. Okay. I don't want Candice is coming for me. No, me either.

Okay, I want her free to do her thing. She's scary. I don't think that young people should be following her on TikTok. This is my Hillary Clinton moment. Young people watching this, tell your friends. Say no to Candace. Say no. Say no to Candace, okay. Block. Block Candice. There's a lot of other good stuff out there on the Internet.

All right. We're to close with the quiz. We always have one for you, a world quiz. This is a long payback, long running payback for the time that George Bush got criticized by the libs for not knowing the president of Pakistan. Tommy has a world-based podcast. And so I've put in this morning the list of Central American Heads of State. I don't know. I'm going to have to give you Buckele. We all know Buckele now. And so among the other countries, we have Guatemala, Honduras, Costa Rica, Belize, Nicaragua. Can we give you Nicaragua? Ortega. You got Nicaragua, Ortega. Was I supposed to be going? You know, any guesses? I just want one from you. Give me one. One of those, Honduras, Costa Rica, Guatemala. I mean, Honduras is Shomara Castro until they figure out this election. The former first lady, her husband was what, Zelaya, who was deposed in a coup, and I think 2009, I think it was during the Obama administration.

Do you say Belize? Belize, Guatemala, Costa Rica. Isn't King Charles the head of state in Belize? I don't believe. I mean, I don't believe so. Technically, aren't they, he's the official head of state? Is that correct? I think that is correct, actually.

Westminster model. That is correct. That is a good pull. Yeah. The head of government would be Johnny Bricheno, the prime minister. We all know he's not in charge. Yeah. Yeah, okay.

Exactly. Tim, how many people live in Honduras? Oh, boy. They're throwing it back. I mean, this is like the Ted Cruz. This is the Tucker Cross and the Ted Cruz. How many people live in Honduras? I would say, so L.A. City has five million.

So Honduras definitely has, what, triple that? I'd say 13 million. Close. I think it's like 10 or 11. It's pretty good. Okay, so now that I know, how many of you live in Honduras, my opinion on whether or not we should bomb them should be taken seriously. And I don't think so, because I honor Honduras. Tommy Vitor, thank you for this.

Thank you for not making me have to do this with Ben Rhodes today. What's there with Ben? I love Ben. I love Ben. I just, it's been a week, you know? We had our all staff bullwork. meeting. I had some kind of interesting podcast earlier this week. And I just, Ben's serious. You know, Ben serious. We can joke. We can joke. But he's serious. So we're going to have Ben on next

year to defend himself and his Hamas commentary. Tommy Vitor, appreciate you very much. Everybody else will be back here with Bill Crystal on Monday. See you all then. Thanks for having me. S.S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. Sonsor Sonsorses-says-ins-sac-sac-sac-sac-sac-sac-sac-sac-sac-sac-sac-sac-s. Si, it's from an unscest, Sassin'-Sas-Sas-Sys. It's from Lange Lus that susses sensu the Jewish Suisse. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. Sivon, Sibon, Sibon, Sibon, Sibon, Sivon, Cibon, Cibon, so it's so good. So, it's so good. So, it's so few, it's soothe. It's soapsed, so much, it's process, so suss.

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S.S.C. it's good, see-old, simple, The Bull, it's good, it's good. Yes, it's good, it's good, it's good. The Borg podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brett.