The Bulwark Podcast - Van Lathan and David Jolly: How To Beat Middle Finger MAGAism

Episode Date: September 30, 2025

Pete Hegseth convenes the military’s top leaders to complain about fat troops and generals and plug his book. Meanwhile, Charlie Kirk’s assassination continues to drive debate about how to confront MAGA as a cultural and political movement. David Jolly, a Democratic gubernatorial candidate in Florida, joins Tim to talk about his campaign, why he switched parties and how he thinks he can reverse his state’s political trajectory. Then, The Ringer’s Van Lathan talks with Tim about our recent interview with Ezra Klein and what political conversations about beating MAGA are missing. Show Notes: Bulwark Live in DC (10/8) and NYC (10/11) with Sarah, Tim and JVL are on sale now at TheBulwark.com/events. For a limited time only, get 60% off your first order, plus free shipping, when you head to Smalls.com/THEBULWARK.

Hey, everybody. I got a bunch of notes for you. So just really quick on today's show, we are taping this as Donald Trump is giving a very sleepy, ambient-esque speech to our generals. I will have much more on that on the next level, which is coming out on Tuesday this week. I'm traveling tomorrow, so we need to move that around. So the next level pod will be in your feeds tonight, Tuesday night. So go ahead and check that out. We've got a bunch to discuss, including JVL's newsletter, about how we are past the worst-case scenario, a very a very typical JVL take, which we're going to chew over on the next level. On this show, I've got a double header for you, David Jolly in the first segment, Van Lathen and the second. Just a quick peek behind the corner about how I'm trying to do this. I understand a lot of you all, this is like your daily news show. So I want to cover the news of the day. I also want to give candidates who are doing interesting things and opportunity to come on and talk about it.

You can support David Jolly. By the way, David Jolly.com, if you like what you hear in segment one. And I also want to have like interesting conversations, you know. And we're trying to do all that stuff for you. And I'm juggling it. So I'm doing my best. I'll take your feedback in the comments on how well I'm doing. But Van is just a really thoughtful guy.

He's one of those guys. I wanted to have a drink with him a couple of months ago. And it was supposed to be a 30-minute drink. We were together for three hours. I mean, he's just got like a really interesting insight. And he texted me about the combo that I had with Ezra Klein. And he said, he goes, man, I want to go deep with you on empathy and dehumanization. And I want to be able to have those conversations here, too.

So if you want, if that's something that interests you, you can pop ahead to Van and segment two of this show. And that goes a little long. And that's why when you look at your pod feed right now, this is like a seven-hour podcast instead of the normal length. Lastly, we still got tickets for the D.C. show. Sarah McBride is going to be there with us. It isn't just going to be me and Sarah and JVL.

We're bringing on some of our other bulwark fan. It's going to be a fun show. We had such a great time in Canada. No singing from me in D.C. but it'll be worth your time. Go to the Borg.com slash events. Bork.com slash events to get your tickets right now for Washington, D.C. All right.

Up next, my friends, David Jolly and Van Lathen. Stick around. Hello and welcome to the Bullwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to welcome a former member of the U.S. U.S. House of Representatives, back then he's a Republican. Now he's a Democratic candidate for governor of Florida. My former Nicole Wallace co-panelist, it's David Jolly. What's going on, man? Good to be with you, Tim. Great to be with you. Good to be back in whatever this is kind of

world. I've been in the governor's race for four or five months. I've missed it. You can't have missed it too much. You get to be out there with the people. How's life out there with the people? You know, it's a little different than being in our holes, you know, looking at the camera. What are you noticing out there? You know, Tim, it is fascinating. You name dropped to Cole. I'll tell you something she told me when I was at the table with her, maybe a month after having gotten in the race. And I was sharing with her a little bit of a different perspective,

just reflecting on my time at MSNBC in a different perspective on the ground running for governor. And you realize kind of how the issues that we talk about every day get distilled differently in a lot of different communities, right? Some of the information isn't digested at all. The finer points of what does it mean to lose your democracy is a conversation that not everybody's having. But Nicole said something that day that was kind of forecasting, I think,

where I would end up going eventually. She said, you know, I always enjoy speaking to gubernatorial candidates because their perspective is refined in a very different way. And she was absolutely right, right? You actually have a job to do. Yeah, you have a job to do. Unlike the Congress, which isn't really a job anymore. They post.

Their job is kind of indistinguishable for my job at the Congress. That's right. And look, it's kind of like a big city mayor. I mean, it is an executive job responsible for the administration of government. And every state's different, right? In Florida, Iowa affordability crisis has manifested in a home insurance crisis, a property tax crisis, obviously chasing rents as well, car insurance, utilities. And then we have unique issues of culture wars because Ron DeSantis really launched the culture wars six or eight years ago. You could almost argue nationally. We have the war on immigration. fighting communities and not fighting crime. So that's the basket of goods in Florida. But it all starts, I mean, if you, I can tell you from the trail, but you can also look at the data, nearly 50% of Floridians when asked, what's the number one issue for you? Not directed, not given multiple choice, just free form. What's the number one issue?

Costs. Costs in the economy. That's right. All right. I want to get into Florida issues here for most of the show, but we, as we're taping, there is some news in that national basket of goods that we have to talk about. Fortunately, the new Secretary of War, former weekend talk show co-host, Pete Hague, Seth, was doing kind of a Joel Osteen meets Fox and Friends performance in front of the generals that he made fly from all over the world to hear him this morning. Did you have a chance to look at it at all? I did.

I did. What do you think? A couple of things ring out. It's clear the poor guy misses his Fox News appearances, right? I've missed the relationship with the audience, but I haven't missed. missed the vanity of it all, if you will. I think Pete Hegseth misses the vanity of it all. And so I had to create this form. He's got the vanity mirror, actually, that he put up. Yeah, right, right? But the other side of that coin is people see through that, right?

Someone who is not respected never really commands a room. And so they're tolerated, but they're not followed. And I think that's what we're seeing in that room today. Hegseth is being tolerated because of the position he holds, but he's not being respected. And the most important thing is what also rings hollow is, I don't believe he really pointed to readiness concerns. You know, for people who may or may not be familiar kind of with DOD and warfighter language and metrics, readiness is what is our national readiness? What is the troop readiness? What are the qualifications to engage if it needs to be in combat or an offensive operations? I'm not sure so much of what he was concerned about was our readiness as much as it was our looks, our look.

I mean, he was attacking people's weight and their beards and their gender in some really odd ways, as opposed to focusing on, are we going to increase the wrong metrics of readiness, of qualifications of our force? Because that also allows us to recognize that a force that feels confident and respected and welcomed and empowered actually could perform better than one that simply looks like a bunch of strong white men. I think that's going to ring through in a lot of people's eyes and ears today. Yeah, I just want to play one audio from that to that point. Kinsinger, your fellow former Republican Congressman turned away from the party. He posted this. This is what you'd expect to hear from somebody speaking to the freshman class at the Academy,

not to our most decorated generals. And I want to play one clip that I think speaks to that. But today at my direction, every member of the Joint Force at every rank is required to take a PT test twice a year, as well as meet height and weight requirements twice a year. a year. This also means grooming standards. No more beards, long hair, superficial individual expression. We're going to cut our hair, shave our beards, and adhere to standards. Because it's like the broken windows theory of policing. It's like when you let

the small stuff go, the big stuff eventually goes. So you have to address the small stuff. Tell them these fucking generals have been leasing soldiers in wars for decades that they got to worry about the beard length of the 19 year old recruit. It's just, and it's just, and it's crazy, crazy stuff. And he's out there saying, like, no more beardos. I'm interested in whether Donald Trump counts as being in the chain of command of having to do the twice yearly PT, because I will tell you, I'm on board for the new policies if it means Donald Trump has to do the PT as well. That's exactly right. On Fox and Friends, on Fox News. Put him on a treadmill. Let's see how he

performs. Though one more ominous thing about a speech was he did talk about how if the generals didn't like his little TED talk, they should do the honorable thing and resign. And I was a little bit worried that that was going to be the ominous part of this, that they were trying to get out people that weren't on board with the full, you know, MAGA program. And then Trump came on and spoke afterwards. And we'll have more on this in the next office. This is happening as we talk now. But he was very low energy talking about Sleepy Joe and election fraud and tariff is being his favorite word and how he liked certain paper. And I don't know, all of a sudden it didn't feel quite like that. But what like, I mean, you have a lot of, there are a lot of military folks in Florida, and this does

intersect with your, you know, your remit running for governor. And how much do you worry about that, like this, like the change in, you know, like demanding not commitment to the constitution in the country, but to these two TV hosts? Yeah, look, I mentioned readiness as a metric. Another metric, truly a measurable metric, is morale. I mean, that is something that is often discussed, right? Morale is actually injured when you have. these vain leaders without qualifications who, through raw power, begin to try to, you know, influence people who truly are qualified and are capable and are ready to lead our men and women in uniform, whether that means on the front lines or an IT command that sits thousands of miles away

in a remote small town in the United States. I think we should, and this is important, this is a reflex I have tried to unlearn on the campaign trail. I think where there are areas for improvement. We shouldn't approach this through this reflexive. They're always wrong or they're always right or if I'm an R or D, right? And so if there are needed improvements with readiness or morale or whatever the other metrics are, sure, let's pursue those. But I think to have an unqualified secretary of defense, basically speaking down and insulting the people who are truly qualified and suggesting that because our military in his mind doesn't look like something sufficient for central casting on Fox News, that somehow that makes us unqualified and insufficient. First,

I'm not sure we've really seen that anyway, right? I mean, we live in the Tampa Bay Area where we do have special operations command. We have a lot of special ops and special forces, folks that come through the Tampa Bay Area. I can promise you, I have not seen a reduction in the fitness level of our special operators that call the Tampa Bay Area home. Those are true warriors, true warriors who are available to us. But we also need a force that actually embraces a lot of other, you know, billets or MOS or the assignments or the requirements depending on your service. What does that mean? From IT to linguistics to engineering, we actually naturally will end up with a very diverse, super qualified force of men and women in uniform

because of the different requirements and responsibilities that the DOD has. The feel on this with HegSeth is led with vanity, inexperienced, a lack of qualifications, and just trying to fix a problem that we don't have. And that's where I think a lot of it falls flat. But look, it'll probably play well in the MAGA Fox News Echo Chamber. It's amazing how much you guys are listening to all the details of my life at the Toronto Show. Among the things people want to talk to me about the most were the fingering trio, if you're not on our YouTube feed, you're really missing out.

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plus free shipping when you head to smalls.com slash the bulwark. One last time, that's 60% off your first order plus free shipping when you head to smalls.com slash the bulwark. All right, let's talk about your rates a little bit. I want to just first do some kind of big picture stuff about why you got in there. Then we'll get into the issues. Yeah. Before we talk about the syndrome as a Democrat, why run it all?

Yeah. You had a nice life. Yeah, it's a great question. Some of it is going to sound esoteric, but, you know, and politics is all about timing. Sometimes a moment kind of reaches out and grab you. You're right. I've been out of office for 10 years.

I'd be okay never to be on a ballot again. I'm not interested in just chasing a generic ballot and finding something to run for. Our kids, Tim, are six and four. This is an incredible time for us as parents. And it is a sacrifice for our whole family to kind of spend some time on the campaign trail. But we are in a moment of dramatic change. We're in a moment of dramatic change nationally, but also in the state of Florida. The affordability crisis is real, the culture crisis.

The culture wars have victims, have victims. And I say this as a family whose orientation is a white Christian family, but at six and four, I don't know who my kids will end up loving or worshipping as they grow old, what pursuits they will want to pursue, either professionally or vocationally or vocationally. But I know because I can already see in front of my eyes that depending on what that life looks like, they may or may not be welcome in the state of Florida. We have had culture and communities under attack in the state of Florida. At the same time, we've had an affordability crisis.

Florida has also become this home for experimenting with all of the really bleeding edge of right-wing stuff. Like, we're going to abolish taxes is something we're going to consider in the next six months. It sounds great, right? But it's also important to fund the police and teachers. And, you know, on teachers, look, we pay our teachers 50th in the nation. It's a moral wrong. There's a lot that's wrong with our state. The broader question, though, is why are we running? Look, the reasons why not to run are our two children, but the reasons to run are our two children. And I believe that we can win this race. I know the data shows this is now largely a toss-up, all of the data. And so that moment is kind of grabbing us. But Tim, I told my daughter, I tell this story on the stump a lot. She started crying one night, and she said, Dad, I don't want you to run for governor. Now, a six-

year old child telling you what to do or not to do through tears is they could convince you. It's powerful. But I have a seven-year-old child and sometimes they change their opinion two minutes later. It's powerful, but fleeting. She does like all the hotels in Florida with lazy rivers. But the words that I found where I said, sweetie, when you have a chance to change the world, you take it. You take it. And that doesn't mean you know how it's going to turn out. But I would say from our national politics to our state politics, the level of activism right now is demanded by the dangers and the threats. Nationally, the dangers and threats to democracy in Florida, the threats to whether or not people can afford to live here, whether they feel welcome here, whether their democracy is slipping away through attacks at the ballot box. And so I think we all have to do what's within reach.

For some people, that's registering to vote or taking somebody to register or organizing or going to a protest. For others, it's standing on the ballot. The last thing I'll tell you is something I've had to reconcile with, particularly in the last few weeks since the Charlie Kirk shooting and some of these other just incredible Trump moves. I don't believe that one election or one candidate fixes the problem and the moment we're in. I don't think it's that easy.

I really don't. And I had to question myself a little bit, is the juice worth the squeeze? And where I have arrived, because I have arrived, because I know this to be true, when we win, when there are new leaders because there is a new coalition, right? Not just new candidates, but a new coalition of voters who say, enough is enough. We're not going in this direction anymore. We have begun to turn the tide and make the incremental progress that begins to create the long-term recovery that I think we need. There's a lot of conversation. I have a lot of conversation in this pod. You and I've talked about

this offline about like what, it's the right strategy for women. in red states, right? And, you know, and part of that, like, the first level of that choice is should candidates run as an independent, is a Democratic brand too toxic to run as a Democrat in red states at this point for whatever reason, fair or unfair? You chose to run as a Democrat as a former Republican. I've talked to other former Republicans who are hesitant to do that. My instinct is that you made the right choice on this, but for listeners, like, why don't you explain why you went that route rather than saying, oh, I'm going to be an independent candidate? Sure. So let's lead with values and then talk kind of electioneering. Because I found my home in the Democratic Party. This was not a negotiation. Frankly, I think the independent space, I've been an independent for the last six to eight years. The independent space, I think, has been a natural ally of the Democrats for the last six or eight years. I often called myself through those years a member of the Democratic Coalition. But what I see in today's Democratic Party are the values I've always had as a Republican and independent, and I see them in today's party. The three basic

that I mentioned are the economy should work for everyone, everyone. Now, that doesn't mean we condemn success. We should congratulate success. We should hope it creates additional opportunity, find ways to ensure that it does create additional opportunities and investment. But the economy should work for the lowest wage earner, for the person who lost their job, the person trying to afford health care. The economy is not working for everybody right now. We know that. The second value is the government does actually have a role in responsibility in our lives. It's our government, we pay for it. It should be lean and efficient, but we need services for our seniors, our veterans, our storm victims, families in need of excellence in public education, fighting crime,

safe communities, right? There is a role for government at a time when it's under attack. Pediatric cancer research, go through the list. The third value is very simple. We should be a place where everyone is welcomed and empowered, regardless of the color of your skin, where you were born, who you love or who you worship. Those values are Democratic Party values. From the young socialist to the last blue dog standing, I do believe those are the actual values that tether the Democratic Party's coalition together, but why then can we win in Florida if we have so fewer registered Democrats? It is because those values, when we amplify them to the independent community and to soft Republicans, those values are broad enough to bring them

in as well to our coalition. And so I disagree with a lot of Democrats who say nationally, We've got to pivot. We've got to change. We can't be who we were two years ago. I disagree fully. The values we have, we need to amplify more into faith communities and ag communities, into the gun communities, into the common sense community, and not ask them to register as Democrats if they don't want to. You don't have to register as a Democrat to vote for a Democratic governor. And so that's why I'm running as a Democrat because I found a home. To your point about the independent space, I spent six years or so trying to organize it. with Christy Todd Whitman, Andrew Yang, a bunch of others, and learned so much. It unlocked my personal politics in a big way. We always mistake the independent voter as being a moderate. Some are far left, some are far right, some are moderate. Most of them are just reformers,

solution-oriented, and what I call pluralists. Some answers for them are to the left, some are on the right, some are in the middle. That's my politics. I think we need a state catastrophic fund for insurance. Republicans call it socialism. I call it cheaper insurance. I still think government needs to be lean, but it needs to provide services. I don't know if that puts me in the middle or a little to the right. I don't care. This coalition that is available to us just wants big answers to big problems. James Carville told me when I was trying to organize the independent space, we were on a panel or somewhere.

He said, Jolly, you're just taking votes from Democrats. And I said, James, these voters are available to Democrats. They're available to Democrats. Not once if Republicans or Democrats tried to reach. those independence. And so I'm running as a Florida Democrat on Democratic values, but building a coalition broad enough for people outside of our party. Let me ask you, though, okay, generic Democrats have done pretty poorly in Florida recently, you know, whether it be Charlie Christ or Val Demings, nothing against any of these people, but they've run state ride races and things have gotten worse

for Democrats. So I'm wondering, in what ways do you see yourself as different from them, either ideologically or otherwise or able to offer something that maybe a generic Democrat has not been able to offer to Florida voters. Yeah, I love that question because this is, Heilman told me, stop being an analyst, start being a candidate. But I'm going to be an analyst for a minute because, well, because national analysts in the media and national Democrats need to get coached up on this a little bit. And I understand it's too easy to accept conventional wisdom. The answer is not first about the candidate. It's first about the cycle. Every cycle is different, right? You know that as well as anybody. So the last cycle for a Florida governor was coming out of COVIDs and lockdowns and culture wars. And Democrats got wiped out the entire ballot. Charlie Chris lost by 18, Val Deming's lost by 16, our CFO by 20. But all of the metrics and other races were looking the same. This cycle, we are already seeing. Democrats overperformed by 15 or 16 points. Florida had two congressional special elections that

overperformed by 16. A state legislative race just overperformed by 21 national elections. Frankly, the Mandami race, despite the fact that none of his answers are right for Florida and none of my answers are right for the city, voters are screaming for change in this cycle. And they are resentful that leaders aren't listening to them. So the cycle is different. Now, how am I different as a candidate? Look, one, as I just mentioned, I'm trying to build a coalition bigger than the party. Now, we have to amplify our party, but we've got to build a bigger coalition. The other thing is, Tim, I tell my story of change. And I think there's an authenticity to it that we need in politics. People say, oh, Jolly was a Republican. The party left Tim. No, that's part of the

case the party left me. I also changed as I served. I actually, look, I moved on reproductive freedom in my early years in Congress. When I realized how my faith teachings were wrongly being applied to a constitutional question, and I saw the impact on communities that needed access to reproductive care, you know, I became the only Republican to vote against the Planned Parenthood investigation. I tried to save money for reproductive care through community health centers. I started to do these things. I've moved. I've changed. And I tell that story. And most people have done that as well. The last piece, though, if the cycle is different and the candidates, different. The office is also different. This is very important because whether I'm a candidate or not

is keeping my analyst hat on. I do think one of the ways to come back for Democrats is through governors' races where we do not have to litigate the president. Now, I'm not setting aside my convictions or asking others to do that about the country and the president. My convictions remain where they have been for a long time. But I'm talking about insurance and taxes and crime and education. And if we focus in on delivering democratic values and solutions to people's lives, to their communities, it's how you get an Andy Bashir in Kentucky, Steve Bullock in Montana. That's the race we're running. That's how you get a David Jolly in Florida. A couple of Florida issues really quick. Should people in Florida be free to paint sidewalk chalk

rainbows on the sidewalk or not? Yes. Okay. They should. Let's go back to local control and home rule. And if communities want to recognize, in this case, the LGBTQ plus community or another community, God bless him, go do it. Ron DeSantis and the governor should keep his hands out of it. Do you think it's interesting in a free state of Florida? You're free to say whatever you want. You're free to say slurs, but you are not free to just draw some rainbows on the sidewalk. That's where the line is. You're not free to recognize who you love in a classroom. You're not free to speak about your faith in certain environments. Look, if I'm to have one bumper sticker in this race, it's probably that the free state of Florida is a lie. The free state of Florida is a lie.

One, it's becoming the most expensive place to try to buy a home or live. But second, your personal freedoms have been trampled for six years now. Let's talk about that on the expenses. I mean, there are two things that jump straight to mind for me living in Louisiana. We have some similar problems to Florida, some differences. But number one, you've mentioned insurance. And number two, I think is even greater problem in Florida is just housing abundance, like availability of housing. Like, what are some state solutions you have for those issues? Look, we're not going to control supply and demand. Although we can control a little bit of supply, we're not the Fed. We can't control rates. But in natural disaster states,

the homeowner's insurance market has collapsed and it's not coming back and it's being held together by Band-Aids and Popsicle sticks. We need a state catastrophic fund, a true cap fund. I introduced one in Congress. I would lead one in the state. If you remove hurricane coverage from the private market. It cuts homeowners insurance by 60 to 70% in a lot of cases. We have plenty of ways to fund that cat fund. We have tourist development dollars coming into the state every day. A couple other things you can do. You can provide direct investment in new workforce housing models, right? Where currently we have a little bit of money going to workforce housing where the developer agrees to a 40-year tax credit or subsidy plan to keep rents at a certain rate. We could just expand

upon that and do that. And then taxes is also a huge piece of this. If we provide first-time homebuyer tax relief, you know, $150,000 homestead exemption or a three, four, five-year step-up and taxable basis, you've eliminated more than half of that what is driving the cost of a home. Because right now, insurance and taxes end up costing more than the person's note on the home if you're a first-time homebuyer. Those are Florida solutions. But I think the principle maybe for this audience is important. I wish the private sector had the solutions for affordability. It doesn't for housing in a lot of states. Well, we could build more. We could take some of the regulations off and let people build more. Sure. And or we could also, we could also use government

subsidies to make it easier to build. The point that I'm getting to is where I think private markets are not satisfying the need right now on affordability, the government does have a role to step in. Look, my Republican friends call the state catastrophic fund for insurance socialism. Yeah. Maybe it is. I just call it cheaper insurance because the private markets failed and it's not coming back. And the government has to step in and solve a problem for people. Are you seeing the tariff impact anywhere in like local, locally?

Like some examples I might not be familiar, you know, because you're just out and about. You see the impact on people. Oh, yeah. Listen, we, I still think there's a latency to it. Yeah. But the cost of goods is real. We have a good friends who own a coffee shop. and right now they're eating all the additional expenses of the increase in goods for coffee,

but it is real. I mean, it is real. And so the relief that Trump promised is not going away. The relief that DeSantis has talked about is not there. And so I do think this is going to contribute to Democrats having an incredible cycle next November. This could be a sweeping generational cycle for Democrats next November. Last thing, on the vaccines, there is some discussion. about banning vaccine mandates in schools in Florida?

Like, really? There are very few things a governor can do on day one in the state of Florida, but one of them is I can fire the Surgeon General of the state of Florida. He should be fired. He is making the state less safe. He is suggesting repealing vaccine mandates for school children and admitted to Tapper that they didn't do any research, any public health research on this.

It's just a question of freedom. He doesn't think families should have to do this. But our surgeon general serves at the pleasure of the governor. This is Rhonda Santis' problem. This is Rhonda Santis's vision. Ron DeSantis is making Florida less safe. And so, yes, you know, one of the things I talk about, about one, I like being a Democrat because I get to believe in data and science and math and public health. Well, guess what? As governor, I'm going to bring back data and science and math and public health and vaccines. And it's amazing, Tim, how that is resonating, whether it is fear of natural disasters and climate science that has not been paid attention to.

to public health or to actually returning to places of leadership, subject matter experts in our state university system, our water district boards, our public service commission that regulates utilities. The idea of actually putting in leadership in Florida adults, adults with experience and subject matter expertise is something that's resonating in the cycle. It just shows you how bad Republicans have left this, but it's also why we have a historic opportunity to change direction. I lied. One last question. One more last question. You're not against Ron DeSantis, actually, if you get the Democratic nomination, and he, the person most likely to get the Republican nomination right now is Byron Donald's, Congressman. Not exactly a ton of

experience. You wouldn't say managing experience. Interesting background. Give us a little bit of a one-minute contrast with Byron Donald's. Because I'm prepared to lead, and he's not, is probably the main thing. And this is a question of change versus more of the same. He represents more of the same. And I represent change. This is an open seat, which is also why we're going to win. Look, we have polls on both sides. Both sides now showing this race even up. That was our goal for next summer. Tim, not only can we win this race, we are going to win Florida. For the first time in 30 years, Florida's voters are going to elect a Democratic governor next November. I do think Byron Donald's, who has the backing of Donald Trump, will be challenged by a proxy candidate for Ron DeSantis.

That might be his wife or his lieutenant governor. There will be an epic Republican primary in the state of Florida for the next year. They will destroy each other. The dirt that that the DeSantis camp is already shoveling around on Donald's makes Mark Robinson blush. I mean, Republicans are about to go at it. They are about to go at it in Florida. And so my, what I bang. Is there any pizza? Is there any, are there any pizza stories for McDonald's? I'm going to leave that to Republicans. I don't touch it. I don't touch it. The only reason I know about this is the press has asked me to comment. And I've said, I don't, I don't know about it. I don't want to know about it. That's their family feud. But what we know from Robinson is

Donald Trump will still get Donald's back. And I think Donald's comes out beating the DeSantis proxy candidate and is very wounded. So then my job as a Democrat for the next 14 months is to unify our party. And I say this to Democrats, where I am insufficient, make me smarter, where I need to be made stronger, help me. I want to lead shoulder to shoulder not out front. My race is not about lifting my voice. It's about lifting yours. And so if we build a coalition across Florida that amplifies democratic values, gives reason for independence and Republicans to say, you know what, I might still vote for a Republican in the Senate race or my congressional race, but in that governor's race, I can actually see a new direction. Maybe I'll vote for a Democrat

for the first time. This is the opportunity Democrats have. The fail point for us will be if we turn on each other. And so that's why I say these values are big enough to hold us together. Let's go contrast that with Byron Donald's or DeSantis's proxy, and I think we win. all right David Jolly Thank you to see with your candidate jacket on Good luck out there Good luck with the kids up on the lazy river And keep us posted on the campaign all right

I'll do it Thanks Tim good to be with you All right everybody else up next Van Lathen All right All right and we're back All right And we're back pump for this. He's the co-host of higher learning, which covers the biggest topics in black

culture and politics. He's host of the ringer tailgate show, which is my new college football pot of choice. And he's a periodic sparring partner for Scott Jennings on CNN. It's the pride of Baton Rouge himself, Van Lathen. What's up, man? What's up, man? What a fantastic intro? How's that? That's pretty good. I just wrote that two seconds ago. I know I can do it just myself, right? I'm just fucking freelancing right in your intro, gasping you up. All right, this is what happened. And I've been wanting to have you on for a while anyway. We did the YouTube thing a while back, people should check out. But for the pod here. And you sent me a text last week. This was before the text about LSU's disastrous performance in Oxford. But this was the text about

my interview with Ezra Klein last week. You said this, we need to have a big convo about empathy and dehumanization listing your combo with Ezra. And I assume you're kind of referencing. We had a broader conversation about how, you know, essentially we all agree. We all don't like that MAGA dehumanizes trans people, immigrants. We go down the list. And And how I had, I mean, as we're talking about some of my concerns about, you know, sometimes, like a dehumanizing attitude towards MAGA, America, whatever you want to call that, and how that might lead us to some dangerous places and how maybe we can show a little empathy. It seems like you, you maybe had some objections to that point of view. So I'll just let you cook and we'll take it from there. It's not that I have an objection to showing empathy for people, but I think it's important to realize, like, what robs people of empathy.

tyranny and misery are married in a way. They both rob you of your humanity. If you are acting in a tyrannical way, then most of the time that comes with a mentality that you've created to dehumanize the people that you are lording over. Give you an example. Slavery in the economic capitalist system. But a tenet of slavery, a tenet of that white supremacy and that economic system, was the belief that black Americans or black people or Africans that they were bringing over were

subhuman. And in order to continue that, you had to paint them as subhuman. You had to take their humanity away because if you see a child or if you see a mother or if you see a father, if you see human beings with souls, then you're going to start asking questions about why it is you're doing what you're doing. So you have to say these people are beasts, these people have different brains, you get phrenology, you get all of this technology, this cultural technology that's invented alongside the prevailing belief that we have to have free labor. But also misery dehumanizes you. Misery dehumanizes you because when you are perpetually and cyclically immiscerated, you start doing whatever you have to do to get out of the misery. Like whatever it is.

And whereas your opponent or your oppressor or whatever, whoever they are and whatever they're doing, their thing no longer becomes something that human beings are engaging into, it just becomes the force that is immiscerating you. So those things are married. I think what society, particularly this society that we live in, what we tend to do is look at people who have been dehumanized by their misery. and hold them to a standard that we don't hold tyranny to. Like, it's an interesting conversation to say,

how do we find empathy and humanity for the Maga crowd when their job has been to other and minimize and dehumanize everyone. So the people that are othered, that are dehumanized, that are immisorated, they riot, they yell, they say, hey, we don't want to hear from you. Hey, we don't want to eat with you. Hey, we don't want, that feeling comes from the thing that I am, the human being that I am, is under a direct attack. And it's not being negotiated. It's not being discussed.

There's no conversation around it. What is being said is we're establishing a standard of Americanism. We're establishing a standard of what regular Americans are. Well, what's normal. A lot of this is revolved around Charlie Kirk. Well, what Charlie Kirk said was, part of what he said was, I want a cookie cutter person doing, like operating on me. I don't want a black lesbian.

That's a profound statement. When we hear that, we go, wait a minute. So, can't fly. We can't operate. Like, what are we supposed to do? And then coming out of that after he is like brutally murdered, right? Something that nobody that I know that's thinking clearly whatever in any way endorsed. We have people like Ezra, who I love.

watched on you guys as Paul, and then I watched go back and forth with Tanahasi say doing politics the right way. There's a lionizing of that. And what we're trying to say is that if, in fact, you sanewash that type of rhetoric, you make it true. And if you sanewash that rhetoric, you make it true. Like, you make that true. If you don't say, wait a minute, hold on, stop, pause, time out, time out, time out, time out, time out, time out, time out, time out. This is bad, this is racist, this is monogrelizing the people, this is putting them in a position where they have to fight not only for every right that they have, but to be taken seriously as contributors to society. If you look at that and you in any way don't call it out on its face when you see it, then you're essentially saying it's okay to say, from a freedom of speech standpoint it might be, but that it also has some merit. if you say he's doing it the right way and I'm like really the question is like what are we supposed

to do I want to just aggregate a couple of those things because I don't I mean I push back on that he's doing politics the right way thing I think that I don't even think really it's worth like obsessing over that because I like said do you want to edit that because like the but the broader point I think the more the about whether empathy should be shown for for these folks whether that this should be a moment for de-escalating versus escalating you know the killer Tyler Robinson he wasn't emiserated by Charlie Kirk. I mean, right? And he wasn't a black person. He wasn't like me. As a gay person, as a family, Charlie Kirk was against my family. He wanted to make that illegal. Like, he wasn't

targeted by Charlie Kirk in any meaningful way. I mean, I guess apparently he had a trans roommate that he felt empathy for, love for potentially, that he wanted to avenge. But Tyler Robinson didn't have anything to do with slavery or gay rights or any of that, any of the stuff that civil rights, you know. So I get a little bit, I'm like, well, why are we wrapping all this up in that. Opposing Charlie Kirk's opinion on all those issues, I feel like can live healthily and separately from the conversation about this man's assassination. Well, we also don't know why he did what he did. We kind of know. Not really. Put it on the bullets. Well, he's put a lot of things on the bullet, but he hasn't talked about

anything. What we're doing right now is we're assuming that we know why he did what he did. I'm not looking to get into his mind as to why he did what he did. Because if we were to try to get into his mind, we'd have to come to terms with something else. As we sit here talking right now, there have been another rash of mass shootings that happened all in the same time. And those mass shootings have a profile, a disaffected young to middle age white male who has decided in his rage, for whatever the reason that the rage exists, that that rage needs to be taken out on innocent people at a restaurant, at a bar, wherever, and shooting him up. So that's a completely different phenomenon. But this is to my point.

Like, wouldn't we be having a more healthy conversation right now if everybody is focused on that? Like, the fact that this is a lot of people with mental health issues, too easy access to guns and how nobody deserves to be killed by a fucking crazy person with access to guns, then, like, having a conversation about, like, what the appropriate amount of meadness is to Charlie Kirk in the wake of his death? You know what I mean? Like, that's the part.

I don't get, like, why is it so necessary to read? hash like his worst opinions on the podcast when it doesn't seem like that had anything to do with his death. Because they talked about building a statue of him in the rotunda. They gave him a day of remembrance. What I'm saying is the conversation around Charlie Kirk's death was quickly, quickly overshadowed by the lionizing him. Yeah.

By saying things that we have to be like, wait a second. And then it went from that to, well, how? How nice should we be to the people that are cheering as masked people, march around the streets of America, snatching people off. Like, it's like, it's an odd thing. I don't really know how to describe it. It's like, Charlie Kirk was killed. And the first thing that I did was get my ass kicked.

I went out and said, I came home on that video and I said, hey, that was terrible. What I just watched, I don't care what anything, I said, that was terrible. That was a terrible thing that just happened. And a lot of people got mad. A lot of people were like, well, man. Doesn't that worry you, though? I guess this is my point. Doesn't not worry you, the people that got mad, whether or not they're rooting for it,

I guess this is the core of my question. The people that got mad at you for being upset about that, they did in like a legitimate way, maybe, again, maybe it's less fair to say this or that they are oppressed, so they deserve it more, whatever. They dehumanized him in his family, like his kids, they made him a non-human. It doesn't matter if his little kids are going to have to watch videos of him get assassinated because to me he's a non-human because he had bad opinions. Again, I'm not trying to compare that to slavery,

but just in like the more narrow definition of dehumanization. Isn't that what that is? Like, I don't care. He's not a human because he had bad opinions. So this is what I would say to that. Two things. Number one, I have empathy for them. So having empathy for them is understanding why,

which is the first thing we did on higher learning, was talk about why empathy is important. Why robbing yourself of your empathy is actually has nothing to do with your opponent. It has to do with, like, you voluntarily taking away a piece of your humanity and why I'm not going to do that, right? But my empathy for them comes from the fact. Them being who?

Just so unclear. So you're empathy for the people that are upset at you for... My empathy for black people in that particular situation, because that's the cohort of people that I'm in most community in conversation with. Okay. It's understanding that Trayvon Martin, right? that Mike Brown, that Sandra Bland, Brianna, George, all of these people, that they watched these people be killed, some of them by crazed vigilante types, some of them by police action.

And then they were told that these people were criminals and thugs and that they deserved it and that they weren't treated like human beings. And so now they're in a cycle where they're saying if it's fuck me, then it's fuck you. me showing empathy to them is understanding why they feel the way that they feel and talking to them as a brother, as a member of that community as to why we have to remember that terrible things are terrible. I have empathy for that, too. I should just say I probably would have had a different reaction to my lack of empathy

came from. I had a lot of privileged liberal white people telling me that I shouldn't feel empathy. And I was like, wait a minute, wait a minute, you're mad on behalf of other people? I was like, Charlie Kirk said my family should be illegal, all right? And you're telling me that I don't get it because it's my, because of my privilege. And I'm like, you're a fucking straight white liberal that lives in a blue city. So anyway, I hear you. I have empathy for people that have that emotional connection.

But I didn't really love being lectured by people that had less skin in the game. Well, I mean, there was all kinds of stuff. Charlie Kirk himself said that empathy was overrated and what he was actually. Well, he was bad. I'm not trying to be him, I guess is my point, though. I get it. But what I'm saying is they hear that. and what they hear is

an intellectual and political argument to ask why their suffering shouldn't count. They hear an intellectual political argument to why their immiseration doesn't mean anything. Like he said that and then they go, okay, well, he's making excuses. And this is Christian.

He's making excuses and backing them up with what he believes is real world examples about why your tears and why your fear and why your fear and why your existence, why that should matter. And then something happens to him. And if you go by his book,

people automatically say, what a terrible person you are. My thing is, I don't let somebody else's lack of empathy or lack of whatever define me. I'm defined in myself with a connection to something that's greater than me, which is God and then community. And that's what I am. And we have to have a conversation about that. While we were in the middle of that conversation, of really talking about how we stay whole and don't become ghosts of ourselves as we continue to move forward and press things forward, the same washing of some of this rhetoric started. The flags at half mass started. The pictures up at baseball games started. The celebration started. And when the celebration started, whereas we could have disagreed on the stuff before, when the celebration

started, I thought that there would be a really united front that came from the left that went, hey, wait a second. This part of it we shouldn't do. This part of it we can't do. The way to be to have this conversation is to have a conversation about the reality and the truth of the words that were saying and what actually happened. And even in that, what we're told is like why it's better to tell nice lies than inconvenient truths about the life someone led. I agree with that. I agree with that. Just so we can find a bridge to try to just narrow down our areas of maybe difference here.

Yeah. I 100% agree with that. My point is I think you took the first step of the empathy step. I was pretty alarmed by the number of people, and I'm not, because you were specifically talking about your audience, which is mostly black folks in a community. I'm just talking about broadly speaking. I was pretty alarmed by the number of people. I kind of skipped the first step.

That's a red flag for things that might come later. So I'm with you on the fucking, I don't Charlie Kirk's statues, people should fight that and protest that and that's fine. I'm cool with all that. You understand that those people feel like they're in crisis, right? I looked at that and I like, I step back and I go, wait, hold on for a second. Some of them are not in crisis. I talked to some people who weren't in crisis who were pretty, who are living pretty decadent

lives actually that were pretty happy. No, no, no, no. When I say, I don't mean in crisis in terms of their. broke or they know i'm talking about they're angry yeah and they're not seeing straight they're using the wrong part of their brain right now to to analyze all of these problems and it's like that's bad right that's what i'm saying that's bad isn't it's it's bad it's bad be that unhealthily angry at this guy that you're like kind of it's cool this is what i would say the anger isn't useful well hold on that's bullshit the anger is definitely very useful it's insanely useful the anger is what's keeping

people motivated. But understand people feel like they're in an existential fight. And when they feel like that, and by the way, they didn't conjure that belief. The fact that they are in an existential fight comes from them watching history being ripped away

and trans people on the run and brown people on the run and freedom of speech and every single norm and the authority of the courts and all of it. They feel like it's go go time right now, bottom of the ninth inning. and things are up.

So rather than me look at them and judge them from a reaction that doesn't show them on their best day, in my opinion, the question is, stop, let's talk about it. But as we talk about it, let's look at it in a holistic way and think about what led to the climate

that we're in right now. Because if we don't do that, then what we're saying is rise above. And I think people are being, they're sick of being told to rise above because it's not working. Yeah, I hear that. And Ezra taped his Ben Shapiro interview before all this happened, so that got a little bit warped, I think.

But like, I've said this on several pods. I've discussed, like the Ben Shapiro being like, you're saying we need to discuss how we got here. And Ben Shapiro was like, we got here because Barack Obama said Trayvon Martin, like, could have been his son. And it's like, well, wait, no, the opposite of that, actually. We got here because of Trump, like, running against Barack Obama, you know, because of what happened to Trayvon.

And then because Trump ran on a racist line and then he was nominate, right? Can I say something about Ben Shapiro in that statement? Because we got here because Barack Obama said that Trayvon Martin could have been his son. Ben Shapiro, trusted voice on the right. Ben Shapiro tweeted something like Trayvon Martin would have turned whatever today if he hadn't gotten in a fight with a guy and trying to murder him in a ministry fight, right? In a hoodie, whatever. He tweeted that on Trayvon Martin's birthday.

Every year for a couple of years. Sick? Sick. What type of fucking ghoul do you have to be to see a collective people mourning the death of a kid that was stalked,

provoked, and then killed by a would-be vigilante. And then every year, to draw glee and joy out of trolling those people over the death of a 16-year-old boy. And then you come back and you... Crazy. Do people think that we don't know

when we're being fucked with? You're fucking with me. You're fucking with me and you're fuck with me on such a level that I can't even put my arms around the anger. Every time I see him sitting down and talking to someone, I go ask him about it. Yeah.

Just ask him about why you would do that. Yeah, I'd love to see you defend it outside the keyboard. I agree. Ask him about why you would do that. I'll ask him if he ever comes on. You're only doing that to make people sad. And they'll throw red meat to your base that enjoys the fact that you're trolling us and poking fun at us over a tremendous tragedy, the loss of a black child.

if we were talking about empathy whatever you feel about to stand your ground law all of that shit is bullshit to me but if we were talking about empathy the empathy would be like you know however we feel about this and I have no illusions about who I think is responsible for the death of Trayvon Martin

I want to say that clearly but however we feel about this people are hurt they're grieving and it's just not shown and you get so rich and you get so up there and then when it's time to have a salient conversation

sit down with somebody from the New York fucking times after you've done all it is we're looking at it we see it and then we're being told we're the people that need to act better and I'm like yo it's like what's what yeah okay I I agree with that

it's crazy making I understand how it's crazy making but we're called to not become crazy it's kind of just sort of wrap this all around because you send a tweet today I think there's another area potentially of disagreement that we have that I just want to hash out on this. You wrote this. We're in need of

John Brown's, but absolutely flush with Ezra Klein's. And for most of, I think, my viewers, listeners are familiar with John Brown, but he was kind of vigilante during the, a unionist, you know, an abolitionist, vigilante from Missouri, my birthday during the slave days.

And, you know, a hero, really, in a lot of ways, also a murderer, also a murderer, right? And I just, seriously, I just, I don't think we're there. And I don't think that our brains sometimes are made to like deal in the gray. I know you deal in the gray a lot on your show, but like the human brain is not made for that. That it's like, wait, this is a really bad

time. We're in a very serious fight. We are in a fight for our way of our governance. The other side does want ill for most people. The other side is ghoulish. They're doing things particularly to immigrants and trans people that are completely unacceptable, but also, you know, they're coming for coming for gays and black folks next and then some black folks are getting it too but like in particular my guy's trans in particular that they're at the tip of the spear right now in this very moment but you know we also still got elections ahead of us okay they also have demonstrated weakness lately like some of their ghoulish plans have been pushed back on through normal systems we're in a bleak place but i don't know that we're in a place of vigilanteism i i just i reject that

I think we have a lot more, I think we have a lot more cards left to play before we have to play the John Brown card. Let me ask you a question. When I say the word George Washington, like, what do you think about? I'm not asking, don't give a woke answer. Just tell me what you think. Don't give me, don't give me, what do you think about George Washington? First president, apple pie, one dollar bill. President, Apple pie.

You know, wooden teeth. Right. Father of freedom, the established. I did a really good thing. First thing because Ryan actually is that he could have become a king and he chose not to. That's the first thing that I think of, actually. Okay. That's my non-low answer.

The first thing that I think about when I think about John Brown is not how many people he killed. And the reason why I asked you that question about George Washington is because George Washington was a warrior. Yeah. George Washington was a general in the army. George Washington had a lot of blood on his hands. But when you think about him, that's not the first thing that you think about. Sure. Why?

Because you think about the cause. And so the cause is what you think about. When I think about John Brown, what I think, I don't think about the, the vigilanteism. What I think about is someone who was unabashedly, directly engaged with a politic at a time where it was unpopular. John Brown was, in many ways, did things that I might not have done. I might have done them then. But in many ways did things that, you know, I certainly wouldn't do today. Let me put it to you, let me put it like that.

But what he was at a time when it was unpopular to caucus with black people, to be in line with something that he thought was a moral abomination, he gave his life and did some things that were terrible because he thought what was happening to this group of people was wrong. When I say that we need more John Browns, I don't mean that we need more people to go as far as what he did. That's not what I'm saying. I think we need more people that have the moral clarity to say, this, in fact, is wrong. It's wrong on Monday. It's wrong on Thursday. It's wrong on Friday. And my voice will be as loud as it needs to be in decrying the thing that is happening.

That is what I mean. And the reason why I bring up Washington or whomever else is because I could tell you right now, one of the most dedicated slavers in the history of America, right? Like legitimately. And we could talk about all of these guys. But when we think about them, we think about the things that are inherently good about the causes that we believe them to have been involved in. I hear that. And John Brown was an abolitionist.

Okay. And an abolitionist who eventually was hung and killed because he stood by people at a time when it wasn't popular to do so. And that's what black people need, particularly from our white friends on the left. I'm not saying we have to agree about everything. I'm definitely not saying that we need to go out there and committing the acts of violence or terrorism. What I am saying is, like, if Tana Hossi Coates tells you,

I live and walk every single day of my life with existential dread, I know people that have stories of lynching, and you come back and you go, yeah, but how Democrats are going to win a Senate seat in Arkansas? What? I hear you. No, look, man.

But I guess this is, I guess, so I'm with you. I have, like, I have empathy for that totally. And in that definition of John Brown, I don't have any issues with your, with your tweet. Because obviously, there's a lot to admire about that cause and that fight. I guess I just worry that, I don't want to put this. I just, here's what I worry about. I see a lot of people out there that are going back to your point earlier about how people that are angry. I see a lot of people out there that are letting their anger consume.

them. And in my world, I'm mostly talking about white folks, to be honest. But I think that, you know, this kind of speaks to what Tom Hossi was trying to say and what you're trying to say about how, about what people's reactions were to this. So people that are legitimately afraid and legitimately scared right now. And I just, I worry a little bit about my people, letting that own them and letting the craziest 1% of that crowd feel emboldened to do something about it. And I just, I'm a little shook by what we've seen the last few weeks, and I'm very morally clear-eyed about the other side being bad, and I just don't want us to become them, I guess, is where I'm leaving it.

Is that a legit concern? Do you not, you're not worried about that? You don't feel that in the air? Am I worried about becoming the other side? Or are you worried about just kind of escalating political violence back and forth, you know, and people feeling like they are justified because of the other side? the legitimate past grievances they have because of their anger and because of their fear? I abhor political violence.

I know. Uphor it. Just any place where the idea is he can get you killed is, it's grotesque to me. I think I have a different relationship to violence than most might. Certainly you have a different relationship to it than I do. So I'll say it so you don't have to. Yeah. And so, like, I think that the specter of violence and everything that surrounds it is not paralyzing enough for me to make me stop short in anything in terms of my ideals.

So what I mean is I don't feel the need to ratchet any part of truth-telling down because of what could happen. It's impossible for me to feel that way because I had to walk to the butt. mustn't go to school. I had to walk through South Baton Rouge and go to my grandfather house. Like going to a party was an exercise in luck, right? Like you start getting calls. Jason's dead. Tefford dead. Delvin's dead. You put the whole thing together, George Temple. Your man, George, is dead. Well, he gets pulled over by a police, him and the police get into some sort of altercation. Somebody walks out of an auto zone and shoots him four times. The specter of violence has been a part of my life for a long time. So it hanging over this political climate is saddening to me and it's certainly, I certainly move with caution and I think it's a terrible and a horrible thing.

But if in any way that would stop me from saying something that I felt like needed to be said with the fervor and the aggression and the truth that it needed to be said, I think I can't consider that. And it's interesting because, like, for years and years and years, I don't mean the lab, but for years and years and years, we've been looking into screens and going places and being like, hey, our lives are on the line just to let you guys know. And not even from the police or anything like that or from intercommunity violence or anything like that. We're saying, hey, we're drinking dirty water. Hey, the water's dirty.

Just to let you guys know, the water's dirty. Like, just let you guys know that it's a chemical plant. or like, it's killing us, it's killing us, it's killing us, it's killing us, it's killing us, it's killing us, it's killing us, it's killing us, it's killing us, it's killing us, go vote, ah, do all that stuff. And now, it seems like sometimes that some of you are afraid in a very real way. And your reaction to the fear is to say, how can we make nice with the thing? And we're saying, make nice. I'm not saying make nice I'm just saying that we shouldn't Okay Well what do you mean by make nice I'm not saying make nice

I'm not I'm not fucking making nice With any of the MAGA people I'm spending most of my days arguing with them And shouting at them So what are you saying then Like tell me tell me what I'm saying I'm saying I'm saying that

All I have control over is my own self And all I have Influence over is people that are listening to me Right So speaking from my own self and the people that are listening to, and what I'm hoping to offer to the people that are listening to me is like, I don't want us to to become so consumed by fear and anger about this threat that is a real threat that I want us to fight with our words and at the ballot boxes and

everywhere, but I don't want us to become so consumed with it that we do not look at people across the street and see them as humans that have sins and skills and good traits and bad traits. And I don't want us to become so consumed by it that we become feel so hopeless that some percentage of us decide that that hopelessness necessitates extreme action. I want us to feel like this is a very real and dangerous threat that we can meet in a liberal democratic society and we can do so and be clear-eyed about it. But we don't want to go so far as to have it be like some kind of civil war, right? Like, no, this is there, you know what I mean?

Like, no, like this is worth end times. Like, extreme measures are called for. I'm just like, that's all I'm trying to do. I'm not trying to make nice. I'm just trying to calibrate with people where we're at. Okay. That's fair. This is what I would say.

I agree. I took a walk this morning and I walked around and I do my whole, like, when I take the walk, y'all don't think this is bullshit, but this is true. When I take the walk, I have a good morning diet, meaning I have a amount of good mornings I have to say. Now, I wish I could take credit for that, but my therapist, my therapist is you're taking a walk, you're out walking in the sun.

Hey, listen. Now, this is actually kind of normal here in my neighborhood in New Orleans. I'm wondering how that's playing in L.A., how your good mornings are playing. You know what's funny is people say that, but it's just, fine. You say good morning to somebody and you flash

the smile, they're happy that you said it. Like, they're happy that you said the good morning to them. In Louisiana, you walk around, somebody will stop you, be like, hey, I said good morning. God damn it, Jesus made this morning for you. I'll just say it back.

But in L.A., you walk around, good morning, good morning, good morning, good morning, hey, good morning, good morning, good morning, sir, you see it all it's fine. I love being a good part of somebody's day. I love that. That's one of my favorite things. I see so many people that feel unseen, they feel unheard,

nobody's talking to them, nobody's thinking about them. Just being the good portion of somebody's day is an amazing thing for me. Everything that you said has a place in discourse. What I'm trying to figure out, and I think the central question that we're all asking, is with this particular political movement one that wields the MAGA hat as a stop sign

it's a stop sign it's a rallying cry it's a middle finger I mean it's a middle finger yeah it is I like Rich Lowry the National Review said it like that said it that much it's a middle finger to the people that I want so like in that situation when it means so much

and it's insulting and it's debasing and it's all of that. What would you like me to do? I mean, that's the question. Like, what would you like me to do? I don't look at you as not a human. I can't look at you as not a human because you are the reflection of God

as we all, not to turn this into because I'll start praise dancing in this motherfucker. Let's do it. If you got a hymn you want to do at the end, we usually end with a song, but we can do an end with a hymn instead. Yeah, but I guess it's a real interesting place. to be in, because other than be the person that I am, I have to tell the truth about what it is

that your politics and your worldview represent. I have to tell the truth to you, and that truth will not be polite. I'm not going to call you a name, not going to call you, but I have to let you know that the political movement that you are a part of is a political movement that seeks to other so many people in this country and fundamentally change, fundamentally change the trajectory that America was on, in my opinion, that, like, I can't tolerate some of not the views, but the actual actions. I can't tolerate sending people to deport them in the countries they've never been to.

I can't tolerate the subversion of the rule of law. I can't tolerate the FCC chair taking Jimmy off the air because the president wanted. these are things I can't tolerate. So you tell me, like, for the people like me, how do we continue to see humanity in people who seemingly want to strip us of the rights that we're supposed to have gotten, have never really gotten in the country? It's really fucking hard. It's really fucking hard, man.

I don't know. I struggle with it. I'm not out of here going, like, I want to go to Charlie, a family member. I don't want to go to Ben Shapiro. house and hug them. I'm not trying to, like, vote for. You know what I mean? It's fucking hard. I don't know. It's fucking hard. But I don't, I'm just, I don't think that the other path is one that's going to yield a result that's any better for any of us, I guess is my point, right? Like, what do you feel like the other path is? Essentially, I think about, obviously there are

differences because there's no racial component, et cetera. But like I think about the troubles kind of in Ireland. I don't think like we're so far away from something like that. Or the The other example I gave on a show recently was like the Balkans. But, you know, in both of those cases, it's religion and nationality, ethnicity, right? In this case, it's kind of like it's a little bit more vague than that, right? And there's some race to it, of course, and sexuality, part of it, or gender at least. And it's kind of where you live and your communities. But, like, we get to a place where, like, we go through now some people, like where everybody is so fucking upset at each other.

we go through some period of you know randomized violence i just i don't think we're that far from that and i'm just trying to put breaks on it that's all i'm not i'm not asking and i'm just saying like if you got a fucking maga aunt you know i don't think you should fucking be calling her every day and saying great job aunt jane but i'm just saying like you can just go to her christmas and just give her a fucking hug and just like talk about the fucking cardinals i don't know that's what i'm asking of you that's all i'm asking and i'm not saying i fucking struggle with it you don't I struggle with it, people watch this channel. I say some nasty-ass things about these people.

You know, but I just, I worry we're a little bit of an inflection point that I'm, that scares me. I get that. By the way, I have conversations with and know people from all sides of the political spectrum, but. I know. So, yeah. I think it's important to, even like a gentleman,

because I am a gentleman, I think it's important to unmask things. So I was having a conversation with a pretty big broadcaster, not too long ago. We're having the conversation about, like, after Trump was elected, how he rolled back some environmental justice initiatives that literally, like the week that he was elected, he rolled back some environmental, or said that he was going to roll them back. He wasn't president yet. It's like, hey, we're going to be getting rid of this. We're going to be getting rid of that. And, you know, some of these things were about environmental standards in black and brown neighborhoods.

And I'm having a conversation with this person and where we're talking about different things. And I said that in my gum, they said they were rolling these things back because they were a woke overreach. Do you think that it is woke for black children to drink clean water? Is that woke? I do not. What's that a question for me? I'm not. Shut up.

And so if there is a specific initiative to the DOJ case, in Alabama when there's legitimately shit in the water and Trump's the OJ like it's like such a fuck you man

like they get up like do you think is that wrong and if you don't think that it is it's not that our convers

nah I'm not fucking with it man I'm sorry bro I'm trying if you tell me that in order for your side to have power, then my cousins in Alabama got to drink shit in the water. I really don't know what I'm supposed to do. Beat them. Beat them. I guess this is my point. Beat them. Beat them. And so I think

this is what Ezra would say. And I totally, I take your point about that conversation with Tanahasi. And it's like, he's talking about all of this, like, legitimate fear people have and the fucking decades of oppression. And you shouldn't respond to that by saying, let's win a Senate seat in Alabama. I get that. Like, as a human, like, we have to have empathy for people who, for anybody that is like dealing with that kind of that kind of trauma and fucking oppression, state oppression, at best. Now we're here, though.

And, like, my suggestion would be, like, getting really fucking pissed and, like, there's a place for fighting. There's a place for persuasion. There's a place for, like, there's a place for all this stuff, right? Like, like, sporadic violence is not going to help.

That's going to let them fucking crack down more. Like, look at Portland, right? If people start throwing Montauph cocktails at those fucking, troops next week and they go to Portland, is that going to help the anti-fascist cause or hurt it? I think it's going to hurt it. You know what I mean? And so the thing is, it's like if you want to get fucking clean water to those black kids in Alabama, then you need to have 51 fucking senators that want to put that environmental rule back in. And so to do that, you got to win a fucking

Senate seat in Iowa. You know what I mean? And like, that's not a crazy point. Like that's a little less fulfilling than like speaking truth. I want to speak truth, but I also want to win a Senate seat in Iowa. Are those two things incompatible? Well, everybody has different jobs, first of all. Yeah, that's true. So the politicians have to politic and the people that are talking directly to people and to their concerns, they have to be as pure in their connectivity as they can be, right? So everybody has different jobs. So it's some people's job to compromise. It's some people's job to not compromise, right? And I'm saying guys like you and me, we should trade C's. You trade me some compassion, and I'll trade you, not necessarily coming at you,

but I'll trade you some courage, right? So it's bad. It is bad. It's totally bad, right? And before we go, it's so bad that we're going to sanewash things that don't make any sense. Let's understand that we're in the bad time and we're going to walk through a little bit of a fire. They're going to be some burns, right? But let's each keep our eyes on the fact that compassion and courage in a fight go hand in hand. They are together. You have to orient what it is that you're doing around sort of universal truths for people. Things that you believe in.

People have a right to health care. They have a right to shelter. They have the right to vote. They have the right to move around freely unfettered and unmolested by the state. They have these things and these are the things that you're fighting for. And the equity and equality that you want for people, if that is in the crosshairs

from other groups, then you have to be courageous in standing up to that. Do you need to have compassion to live in society and community with people? Yes, you do. To share community, there has to be compassion. Almost everything that we have, right, is built upon pro-evolutionary traits that have

furthered humanity into being a race that can cooperate with one another, right? I get that and I understand that, right? But there's really no but there's an and. And on top of that, what I also understand is that there are specific threats that are inflamed lies are like steroids to them

and not just lies but being passive is like steroids to those things they take you sticking your hand out and shaking it sometimes

as a sign of weakness sometimes you must not shake hands sometimes you must say we will shake hands after we found something to agree with sometimes you say you are safe in talking to me but after we've established that there's a framework for humanity on both sides of this table

we can then shake hands but I don't know I hear you the thing that I took away from Ezra and Tanahasi's conversations is that they were having two different conversations Ezra Klein is like hey I want to protect people by politically moving and shaking and making sure that we're empowered to protect them.

And Tanahasi was saying, I want to protect people by being a beacon of truth to them. So they know that somewhere someone with a huge voice hears what they are saying and sees themselves, sees himself in them. Both of those things are equally as important. But what it seemed like was in the aftermath of Kirk's death is that some of our white friends on the left we're saying it's okay

that they're going to build this guy's statue they should if building this guy's statue tamper's things down fine if given a national day of remembrance to him tamper's things down then that's fine

and we're like no I can't do that now unless we be overlooked and at the back of the bus in perpetuity let me be abundantly clear no statue for me all right

Last thing. Paul Feinbaum, the voice of the South, for folks who are not big SEC football consumers, Paul Feinbaum. You're probably the biggest commentator, the Rush Limbaugh of SEC football maybe, radio host. How about that? Yeah. The story today is out with Clay Travis. We could do a whole other podcast on Clay Travis, so we're just going to let that sit in the air. And he said to Clay that he was inspired by Charlie Kirk's death. And he's been getting some calls from Washington, and he's thinking about running for Tommy Tuberville's seat. And I have to know what Van Lathen thinks about that. This is one of my favorite things that's happening recently. I want to see just how disgusting Paul Feinbaum can get.

Let me tell you why. Because there's something that's like been happening recently. And it's been like a fun journey. Well, not fun, but really interesting journey to see just how disgusting, like Dr. Oz, You know Dr. Oz. Let's see just how fucked up Dr. Oz can become. Dr. Field, we know Dr. Phil. Let's see just how fucked up Dr. Phil can become.

The list goes on. Tommy Tuberville. You know my youth. Bruce Pearl recently. Bruce Pearl. Let's just see how far the rabbit hole goes. Can we get an inward out you? Like how bad can it get?

Is Fibound for the Gulag? Does Finebound want to send people to El Salvador? I don't know. I like to learn. What is Finebaum going to say? What are we going to get the boys and girls sports rent? What are we going to get the, like, what is Fine Baum going to do? I want to see how bad it can get.

And so when I saw them, I'm like, oh, Paul, just to let you know, you can't get a little bit pregnant. If you jump into that seat, you got to go full on demon time. And I'm not talking about being on the phone with legend, the Alabama fan or whatever. I'm talking about Paul. You got to go all the fucking way. Did you know Paul was a mega? once followed me on social media. And so I thought he might be normal until

this news came out. Then I went and looked and I guess he's unfollowed me. So at some point he must got radicalized. I don't know unless he was just a MAGA interloper the whole time. Do you know? I've done the show before. I had no idea. College football is an interesting thing. Yeah. Because you follow the college football

voices. These are normally white, southern gentleman. And you assume, but let me tell you something about college football that's like super interesting. It's not always like this. I don't want to wax poetic. But when you're in Tiger Stadium on a Saturday,

now when you're on the yard, it's a different situation. When you're on the yard on Souther's campus, we just having fun. We're getting into it. It's the whole deal, right? There's so much celebration going on. It's a cultural celebration with a football game happening.

LSU is a football game happening with a cultural celebration around it, right? When you're in the stands, not all the time, because you know how it goes, but it's almost like a little true, sometimes. Yeah.

College football sometimes feels like a little truce. You know where you at. You know where you at. They can look at my outfit. They know where I'm at. We know where you at. But it feels like a little truth. So when those guys get to talk in politics, you can assume what their politics are.

But it almost feels like it breaks the fourth wall of college football to get into that stuff a lot of times. Because when they go, they go hard and they don't ever come back. Yeah. I like the truth, man. I guess that's what I'm saying. you see you even like it you're getting soft like me in there for a second one second there a soft van came out you like the truce you like the truce right there at the tailgate at the tailgate you're down for the truce yeah it's so funny it's so funny man it's like this right here is

people know me i'm here to have a good fun and talk about all of our differences you know this is the last thing i'll say i don't want to take up too much time because i know you got more important white people to talk to but christianity is an interesting thing. I'm from Louisiana. Born and Raged Baton Rouge, we talked about that. Man, there were, it's just different. It really is different. It's like there were people that I saw take people in, feed them, clove them, look after them, bring them in the house, baby, are you okay? You need something to eat. And then you look up and there's a picture of Ronald Reagan on their wall. It just used to mean something. There was,

was always a part of it that was political, but there used to be where I'm from, there was a sense of community, it's difficult to explain, there was a sense of community even that shattered the intense racial divide that's always existed, that you could still feel, right? You always realized your situation, you always saw what they had and what you didn't have, but there used to be something, even an attempt, and man, that's gone. Like, there's an overt meanness, an overt us versus them. Yeah. That is, I can't, I don't, I don't, I don't really even know how to talk about it in a way.

It's just, it's mean. Like, it's, it's mean and it's aggressive, and it's not for you. And that's kind of how it feels. Yeah. And it sucks. It's on Louisiana. I said that about Kim Mulkey, who's MAGA and all this, but it's just like, oh, shoot, women's basketball coach. But like, she kind of represents Louisiana.

Like she's coaching all these black girls. And like at some level you can like see the heart that she has for him. But like then you know she's going to go to the fundraiser for Jeff Landry like on the back side, you know. And there just isn't as much of that happening. All right. You really think that unless you're talking about eight and four? We can't run a ball. Come on.

No way. Not eight and four though. You tell me where you see a victory. Can I get nine? Can I get nine? Can I tell me where you see a victory? Like I think I think we'll be South Carolina. We should be talking.

We're to be Western Kentucky. We're going to beat A&M at home. That's a tough fucking game. And what? So that's three and two. Vandy? We're going to go, Vandy,

get a win. That's four more wins. One more for a second. You cannot. At Georgia State, that's five more wins. That's five more wins. Nine and three. At this point,

you can not assume, I bet you. I got nine. I bet you. You got eight and a half. I'm over eight and a half. So if they win nine or ten, me,

you and Ezra can host the Nizathon. What we just like that? Fuck that. No, you're buying. my ticket to the playoffs. If we go to the playoffs, you're buying my ticket to the playoff game. We don't go to the playoffs and you can fucking yell at me or whatever you want to do. Gotcha. That's done. I'll take you to dinner. I'll pay for dinner. You can yell

at me the whole time. There you go. That's the bet. Everybody, that's Van Layton. Appreciate you, man. That was a lot of fun, bro. Peace. All right. Thanks so much to David Jolly and Van Lathen. Check out TNL for more tonight. We're just loading you up with podcast material today. And I'll be back tomorrow as usual for another edition of this very podcast. We'll see you all then. Peace. Careful of those who pretend to be brothers And you never suppose it's those who are closest to you To you

They say all the right things to gain their position They use your kindness is their ammunition To shoot you down in the name of ambition Do they do Oh Forgive them father for They know not what they do Forgive them father for

They know not what they do Forgive them forgive them One like them love you while them rip you to shreds Tramp up on your one time left your feet Them are your friend who you depend on The Bullwark podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brett.